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bostonfred

Who's better, Manning or Brady?

Who's the better quarterback?  

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If I had to pick one to QB my team in a Super Bowl between these two? That's easy.

Give me Brady all day. Hell give me Brady for the post season.

Manning has always been a different player in the post season. Say whatever you want, but the proof is in the pudding. He does not perform nearly as well in the post season than regular season. He is no doubt one of the all time greats. But Brady smokes him in the post season.

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over a 3 year stretch in the prime of my career I was 0-3 in the playoffs, 46/88 52% for 503 total yds with 0 td and 4 picks

WHO AM I?

sry if I'm peeing on anybody's childhood icons

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over a 3 year stretch in the prime of my career I was 0-3 in the playoffs, 46/88 52% for 503 total yds with 0 td and 4 picks

WHO AM I?

sry if I'm peeing on anybody's childhood icons

Montana certainly had a trough in the middle of his career. In his 3 consecutive one-and-done's, SF got outscored 102-30 and his passer ratings were 65, 34, and 42.

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Both great QBs, but Manning had more than twice as many good/great seasons as Brady did.

guess that depends on what you call a good/great season.......

how's this one shaping up?

I don't really care who plays for the better team or who was healthy when the playoffs started.

If I had to have one QB to win a game without knowing anything about the defense, the coaching or the running game I'd take Manning.

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over a 3 year stretch in the prime of my career I was 0-3 in the playoffs, 46/88 52% for 503 total yds with 0 td and 4 picks

WHO AM I?

sry if I'm peeing on anybody's childhood icons

Montana certainly had a trough in the middle of his career. In his 3 consecutive one-and-done's, SF got outscored 102-30 and his passer ratings were 65, 34, and 42.

omg spoiler alert

and, if I might add, not to pile on or otherwise besmirch an american icon, this is on a team that outspent the rest of the league prior to fa and salary caps, throwing to a guy who is generally regarded as the best receiver of all time.

when brady got moss he rewrote record books.

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over a 3 year stretch in the prime of my career I was 0-3 in the playoffs, 46/88 52% for 503 total yds with 0 td and 4 picks

WHO AM I?

sry if I'm peeing on anybody's childhood icons

Does it matter? No one expects perfection in the playoffs. Every QB, if they play enough, will put up a few bad game. If you think 3 games represent the entirety of Montana's playoff career I am not sure what to tell you.

In the prime of my career. In my 4 SB appearances, I was 83/122 68% for 1142 yards 11 TDs and 0 picks.

WHO AM I?

Montana isn't considered #1 due to playing in "olden times". He is considered #1 because he put up great regular season stats, retired as the #1 QB as far as efficiency is concerned, led his team to 4 titles, and did it but putting up *better* overall numbers in the postseason than he did during his HOF regular season career. You have the most efficient QB in history getting better when the defenses get tougher and it is a must win situation.

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over a 3 year stretch in the prime of my career I was 0-3 in the playoffs, 46/88 52% for 503 total yds with 0 td and 4 picks

WHO AM I?

sry if I'm peeing on anybody's childhood icons

Montana certainly had a trough in the middle of his career. In his 3 consecutive one-and-done's, SF got outscored 102-30 and his passer ratings were 65, 34, and 42.

omg spoiler alert

and, if I might add, not to pile on or otherwise besmirch an american icon, this is on a team that outspent the rest of the league prior to fa and salary caps, throwing to a guy who is generally regarded as the best receiver of all time.

when brady got moss he rewrote record books.

Montana won 2 SBs before Rice was even in the league. You want to know the grand total of HOFers at skill positions that Montana played with? One. Manning is going to likely end up with at least 2 but conceivably 5. Brady has at least 1 but possibly 3. It wasn't like Montana was surrounded by all-pro HOF talent that these other guys were lacking.

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over a 3 year stretch in the prime of my career I was 0-3 in the playoffs, 46/88 52% for 503 total yds with 0 td and 4 picks

WHO AM I?

sry if I'm peeing on anybody's childhood icons

Does it matter?

yes

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over a 3 year stretch in the prime of my career I was 0-3 in the playoffs, 46/88 52% for 503 total yds with 0 td and 4 picks

WHO AM I?

sry if I'm peeing on anybody's childhood icons

Does it matter? No one expects perfection in the playoffs. Every QB, if they play enough, will put up a few bad game. If you think 3 games represent the entirety of Montana's playoff career I am not sure what to tell you.

In the prime of my career. In my 4 SB appearances, I was 83/122 68% for 1142 yards 11 TDs and 0 picks.

WHO AM I?

oh, ok -- 3 games isn't the entirety of his career but 4 games is.

from '81 - '94 the niners won 4 sb and appeared in 9 conference games.

I believe fa started in '93 with the cap being introduced shortly thereafter in '94.

coincidentally, '94 also happens to be the last sb the niners bought --- they appeared in (and lost) a single conference game after that, until harbaugh got them back in nearly 20 yrs later.

the dyna$ty was over.

everything looks bigger when you're 10, and those fuzzy memories are hard to top.

there's also a lot to be said for being in the right place at the right time

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over a 3 year stretch in the prime of my career I was 0-3 in the playoffs, 46/88 52% for 503 total yds with 0 td and 4 picks

WHO AM I?

sry if I'm peeing on anybody's childhood icons

Montana certainly had a trough in the middle of his career. In his 3 consecutive one-and-done's, SF got outscored 102-30 and his passer ratings were 65, 34, and 42.

omg spoiler alert

and, if I might add, not to pile on or otherwise besmirch an american icon, this is on a team that outspent the rest of the league prior to fa and salary caps, throwing to a guy who is generally regarded as the best receiver of all time.

when brady got moss he rewrote record books.

Montana won 2 SBs before Rice was even in the league.

and in those 6 playoff games he threw 13 td to 9 picks.

. You have the most efficient QB in history getting better when the defenses get tougher and it is a must win situation.

in the '84 run his defense gave up 26 total points in those 3 games.

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over a 3 year stretch in the prime of my career I was 0-3 in the playoffs, 46/88 52% for 503 total yds with 0 td and 4 picks

WHO AM I?

sry if I'm peeing on anybody's childhood icons

Does it matter? No one expects perfection in the playoffs. Every QB, if they play enough, will put up a few bad game. If you think 3 games represent the entirety of Montana's playoff career I am not sure what to tell you.

In the prime of my career. In my 4 SB appearances, I was 83/122 68% for 1142 yards 11 TDs and 0 picks.

WHO AM I?

oh, ok -- 3 games isn't the entirety of his career but 4 games is.

from '81 - '94 the niners won 4 sb and appeared in 9 conference games.

I believe fa started in '93 with the cap being introduced shortly thereafter in '94.

coincidentally, '94 also happens to be the last sb the niners bought --- they appeared in (and lost) a single conference game after that, until harbaugh got them back in nearly 20 yrs later.

the dyna$ty was over.

everything looks bigger when you're 10, and those fuzzy memories are hard to top.

there's also a lot to be said for being in the right place at the right time

No, of course not, I was illustrating how easy it is to cherry pick. You take Montana's career *as a whole* and it is easy to see why he is the greatest. You have the most efficient QB in the history of the game. He wins 4 rings and performs *even better* in the playoffs. You can't really ask for more than that. I am pretty sure the he only lost 1 game in the playoffs that he was favored to win. My memories aren't fuzzy and the stats don't lie.

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I wanted to take a look at their regular season/playoff differences so I compared how they did against teams with winning records in the regular seasons vs. the playoffs (not all have winning records but it was as close of an approximation as I could get).

Regular season stats against teams with winning records:

Rk 	Tm 	From 	To 	G 	W 	L 	T 	W-L% 	Cmp 	Att 	Cmp% 	Yds 	TD 	Int 	Sk 	Yds 	NY/A ▾4 	DEN 	2011 	2014 	27 	14 	13 	0 	0.519 	628 	998 	62.9 	7218 	61 	27 	44 	323 	6.92711 	IND 	1999 	2010 	82 	44 	38 	0 	0.537 	1957 	3053 	64.1 	21732 	148 	100 	122 	839 	6.84471 	IND 	1998 	2010 	92 	45 	47 	0 	0.489 	2168 	3432 	63.2 	23842 	164 	120 	131 	895 	6.69163 	NWE 	2001 	2014 	93 	55 	38 	0 	0.591 	2160 	3469 	62.3 	23291 	153 	74 	182 	1162 	6.3793
I included Peyton's Colts numbers with and without his rookie year.

Playoff stats:

Result	GS	Cmp	Att	Cmp%	Yds	TD	Int	Rate	Y/A	AY/A	Att	Yds	Y/A	TD	Pts11-13-0		598	935	63.96	6800	38	24	88.5	7.27	6.93	27	24	0.89	3	1819-8-0		623	1000	62.30	6791	46	23	88.0	6.79	6.68	65	90	1.38	5	30	
Big difference in their records, but in terms of passing numbers they are very similar (most noticeable was Brady having more TD's).

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over a 3 year stretch in the prime of my career I was 0-3 in the playoffs, 46/88 52% for 503 total yds with 0 td and 4 picks

WHO AM I?

sry if I'm peeing on anybody's childhood icons

Montana certainly had a trough in the middle of his career. In his 3 consecutive one-and-done's, SF got outscored 102-30 and his passer ratings were 65, 34, and 42.

omg spoiler alert

and, if I might add, not to pile on or otherwise besmirch an american icon, this is on a team that outspent the rest of the league prior to fa and salary caps, throwing to a guy who is generally regarded as the best receiver of all time.

when brady got moss he rewrote record books.

Montana won 2 SBs before Rice was even in the league.

and in those 6 playoff games he threw 13 td to 9 picks.

in the '84 run his defense gave up 26 total points in those 3 games.

So, you are basically saying that stretch he played was poor? That 13:9 TD ratio is pretty similar to Manning's career playoff TD:INT ratio of 13:8.2

Manning's only SB came with a 3:7 TD:INT ratio. Not sure who "your guy" is but whoever it is, unless his playoff resume is short, it doesn't compare to Montana's in a favorable way.

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To give a more fair look at Brady vs. Peyton, here are their numbers against teams with winning records:

Rk 	Tm 	From 	To 	G 	W 	L 	T 	W-L% 	Cmp 	Att 	Cmp% 	Yds 	TD 	Int 	Sk 	Yds 	NY/A ▾4 	DEN 	2011 	2014 	27 	14 	13 	0 	0.519 	628 	998 	62.9 	7218 	61 	27 	44 	323 	6.92711 	IND 	1999 	2010 	82 	44 	38 	0 	0.537 	1957 	3053 	64.1 	21732 	148 	100 	122 	839 	6.84471 	IND 	1998 	2010 	92 	45 	47 	0 	0.489 	2168 	3432 	63.2 	23842 	164 	120 	131 	895 	6.69163 	NWE 	2001 	2014 	93 	55 	38 	0 	0.591 	2160 	3469 	62.3 	23291 	153 	74 	182 	1162 	6.3793
I included Peyton's Colts numbers with and without his rookie year.

Playoff stats:

Result	GS	Cmp	Att	Cmp%	Yds	TD	Int	Rate	Y/A	AY/A	Att	Yds	Y/A	TD	Pts11-13-0		598	935	63.96	6800	38	24	88.5	7.27	6.93	27	24	0.89	3	1819-8-0		623	1000	62.30	6791	46	23	88.0	6.79	6.68	65	90	1.38	5	30	
Big difference in their records, but it terms of passing numbers they are very similar.

In a vacuum they are similar - dome vs. outdoors can make a bit of difference.

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over a 3 year stretch in the prime of my career I was 0-3 in the playoffs, 46/88 52% for 503 total yds with 0 td and 4 picks

WHO AM I?

sry if I'm peeing on anybody's childhood icons

Montana certainly had a trough in the middle of his career. In his 3 consecutive one-and-done's, SF got outscored 102-30 and his passer ratings were 65, 34, and 42.

omg spoiler alert

and, if I might add, not to pile on or otherwise besmirch an american icon, this is on a team that outspent the rest of the league prior to fa and salary caps, throwing to a guy who is generally regarded as the best receiver of all time.

when brady got moss he rewrote record books.

Montana won 2 SBs before Rice was even in the league.

and in those 6 playoff games he threw 13 td to 9 picks.

in the '84 run his defense gave up 26 total points in those 3 games.

So, you are basically saying that stretch he played was poor? That 13:9 TD ratio is pretty similar to Manning's career playoff TD:INT ratio of 13:8.2

Manning's only SB came with a 3:7 TD:INT ratio. Not sure who "your guy" is but whoever it is, unless his playoff resume is short, it doesn't compare to Montana's in a favorable way.

'my guy' is brady

and brady > manning

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Manning's only SB came with a 3:7 TD:INT ratio. Not sure who "your guy" is but whoever it is, unless his playoff resume is short, it doesn't compare to Montana's in a favorable way.

The first game was home against the Chiefs and he was lucky that his 3 INT's weren't converted into points (one of them resulted in a missed FG and the other two were punts). However, he completed 79% of his passes and threw a TD in the 4th quarter to put the game away.

The second was at the Ravens, who gave up 201 points on the year. He had 0 TD, 2 INT, but he did lead the Colts on 6 scoring drives (all FG's).

In the championship game he outplayed Brady with 349/1/1 to Brady's 232/1/1.

In the SB he completed 66% of his passes for 247/1/1.

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over a 3 year stretch in the prime of my career I was 0-3 in the playoffs, 46/88 52% for 503 total yds with 0 td and 4 picks

WHO AM I?

sry if I'm peeing on anybody's childhood icons

Montana certainly had a trough in the middle of his career. In his 3 consecutive one-and-done's, SF got outscored 102-30 and his passer ratings were 65, 34, and 42.

omg spoiler alert

and, if I might add, not to pile on or otherwise besmirch an american icon, this is on a team that outspent the rest of the league prior to fa and salary caps, throwing to a guy who is generally regarded as the best receiver of all time.

when brady got moss he rewrote record books.

Montana won 2 SBs before Rice was even in the league.

and in those 6 playoff games he threw 13 td to 9 picks.

in the '84 run his defense gave up 26 total points in those 3 games.

So, you are basically saying that stretch he played was poor?

that's you posting that -- I don't see the word 'poor' in my posts.

if you want me to come out and grade it

over a 3 year stretch in the prime of my career I was 0-3 in the playoffs, 46/88 52% for 503 total yds with 0 td and 4 picks

on a steinbrenneresque roster throwing to the greatest reciever of all time is poor

very poor

extremely poor

the kind of poor that costs your team 3 championships

13:9 is much better than that, but not what I'd call best ever in the history of forever clutch when the money's on the table.

but it's better than poor

what I'm saying is that on brady's latest title march, pats d just gave up more points in a single playoff game than niners gave up in all three playoff games combined in '84, but of course we give joe all the credit.

what I'm saying is that on brady's latest title march, his #1 receiver is a converted qb who was drafted in the 7th to play special teams, while montana built his legend throwing to the greatest receiver in the history of football.

what I'm saying is that joe montana was an excellent qb who happened to be in the right place at the right time, but is also closer to being the figurehead of a team that bought championships than the greatest qb in the history of the nfl.

that's what I'm saying

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LOL. You guys beat the Ravens (actually #38 of Ravens) and now sets in this obstinate groundswell of insufferableness to prove to everyone just how the Pats are the greatest Team with the greatest players of all time .... but gee, you're all so lovable!

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over a 3 year stretch in the prime of my career I was 0-3 in the playoffs, 46/88 52% for 503 total yds with 0 td and 4 picks

WHO AM I?

sry if I'm peeing on anybody's childhood icons

Montana certainly had a trough in the middle of his career. In his 3 consecutive one-and-done's, SF got outscored 102-30 and his passer ratings were 65, 34, and 42.

omg spoiler alert

and, if I might add, not to pile on or otherwise besmirch an american icon, this is on a team that outspent the rest of the league prior to fa and salary caps, throwing to a guy who is generally regarded as the best receiver of all time.

when brady got moss he rewrote record books.

Montana won 2 SBs before Rice was even in the league.

and in those 6 playoff games he threw 13 td to 9 picks.

in the '84 run his defense gave up 26 total points in those 3 games.

So, you are basically saying that stretch he played was poor?

that's you posting that -- I don't see the word 'poor' in my posts.

if you want me to come out and grade it

over a 3 year stretch in the prime of my career I was 0-3 in the playoffs, 46/88 52% for 503 total yds with 0 td and 4 picks

on a steinbrenneresque roster throwing to the greatest reciever of all time is poor

very poor

extremely poor

the kind of poor that costs your team 3 championships

13:9 is much better than that, but not what I'd call best ever in the history of forever clutch when the money's on the table.

but it's better than poor

what I'm saying is that on brady's latest title march, pats d just gave up more points in a single playoff game than niners gave up in all three playoff games combined in '84, but of course we give joe all the credit.

what I'm saying is that on brady's latest title march, his #1 receiver is a converted qb who was drafted in the 7th to play special teams, while montana built his legend throwing to the greatest receiver in the history of football.

what I'm saying is that joe montana was an excellent qb who happened to be in the right place at the right time, but is also closer to being the figurehead of a team that bought championships than the greatest qb in the history of the nfl.

that's what I'm saying

C'mon Montana won his first SB throwing to Dwight Clark - who was drafted in the 10th round (would've been in the 7th round in 2014 draft), with his top rusher barely breaking that elusive 500 yard barrier (10th rounder, would've been UDFA) while his team was ranked dead last in YPC, on top of that his D gave up 20+ points in every playoff game - the total and average of which is greater than *any* of Brady's SB runs.

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Brady + Belichick > Manning + mediocre coach

I'm not ready to say Brady > Manning

Never forget that when Brady went down, the Patriots led by Matt Cassel won 11 games. They barely missed a beat.

When Manning went down, the Colts were historically bad, leading to them having the #1 overall pick.

Coaching can never be overlooked.

Tom Brady has spent his entire career with a coach who once got to 11-5 with Matt Cassel.

Peyton Manning once got to 14-2 (and could have gone 16-0 if they hadn't tanked the last game and a half) with Jim freaking Caldwell.

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Good point, coaching can't be overlooked. Brady has played with four different offensive coordinators, never having the same one more than four years in a row.

They change offensive schemes year to year, but also game to game. They set an nfl record last week for fewest rising yards by a winning playoff team with 14. They rushed for 234 yards and 6 touchdowns against the Colts last year. They change back and forth on a dime because brady can handle it.

They routinely change his receiving targets. They traded away Deion branch after training camp. They let Wiggins and David patten go. Troy brown and Kevin Faulk retired. They released Reche Caldwell after just one year. They released randy moss midseason. They let welker and Lloyd go the same off season that hernandez did his thing. Gronk has been hurt repeatedly. And every time the patriots coaches have massively changed the offense out of necessity.

Did manning deal with anything close to that? He stayed with the same offensive coordinator the whole time, and brought that same offense to Denver. Harrison played his whole career with the Colts and was barely ever injured. Wayne played his whole career with the Colts. Clark and edge played most of their careers there too. All of them knew that offense inside and out because of the unparalleled offensive coaching and personnel consistency manning enjoyed.

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Good point, coaching can't be overlooked. Brady has played with four different offensive coordinators, never having the same one more than for years in a row.

They change offensive schemes year to year, but also game to game.

They routinely change his receiving targets. They traded away Deion branch after training camp. They released Reche Caldwell after just one year. They released randy moss midseason. They let welker and Lloyd go the same off season that hernandez did his thing. Gronk

is that supposed to be a positive or a negative?

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Good point, coaching can't be overlooked. Brady has played with four different offensive coordinators, never having the same one more than four years in a row.

They change offensive schemes year to year, but also game to game. They set an nfl record last week for fewest rising yards by a winning playoff team with 14. They rushed for 234 yards and 6 touchdowns against the Colts last year. They change back and forth on a dime because brady can handle it.

They routinely change his receiving targets. They traded away Deion branch after training camp. They let Wiggins and David patten go. Troy brown and Kevin Faulk retired. They released Reche Caldwell after just one year. They released randy moss midseason. They let welker and Lloyd go the same off season that hernandez did his thing. Gronk has been hurt repeatedly. And every time the patriots coaches have massively changed the offense out of necessity.

Did manning deal with anything close to that? He stayed with the same offensive coordinator the whole time, and brought that same offense to Denver. Harrison played his whole career with the Colts and was barely ever injured. Wayne played his whole career with the Colts. Clark and edge played most of their careers there too. All of them knew that offense inside and out because of the unparalleled offensive coaching and personnel consistency manning enjoyed.

You could take any NFL team and insert names here...

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Good point, coaching can't be overlooked. Brady has played with four different offensive coordinators, never having the same one more than four years in a row.

They change offensive schemes year to year, but also game to game. They set an nfl record last week for fewest rising yards by a winning playoff team with 14. They rushed for 234 yards and 6 touchdowns against the Colts last year. They change back and forth on a dime because brady can handle it.

They routinely change his receiving targets. They traded away Deion branch after training camp. They let Wiggins and David patten go. Troy brown and Kevin Faulk retired. They released Reche Caldwell after just one year. They released randy moss midseason. They let welker and Lloyd go the same off season that hernandez did his thing. Gronk has been hurt repeatedly. And every time the patriots coaches have massively changed the offense out of necessity.

Did manning deal with anything close to that? He stayed with the same offensive coordinator the whole time, and brought that same offense to Denver. Harrison played his whole career with the Colts and was barely ever injured. Wayne played his whole career with the Colts. Clark and edge played most of their careers there too. All of them knew that offense inside and out because of the unparalleled offensive coaching and personnel consistency manning enjoyed.

You could take any NFL team and insert names here...
except the Colts during manning's tenure. And that's the point.

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Good point, coaching can't be overlooked. Brady has played with four different offensive coordinators, never having the same one more than four years in a row.

They change offensive schemes year to year, but also game to game. They set an nfl record last week for fewest rising yards by a winning playoff team with 14. They rushed for 234 yards and 6 touchdowns against the Colts last year. They change back and forth on a dime because brady can handle it.

They routinely change his receiving targets. They traded away Deion branch after training camp. They let Wiggins and David patten go. Troy brown and Kevin Faulk retired. They released Reche Caldwell after just one year. They released randy moss midseason. They let welker and Lloyd go the same off season that hernandez did his thing. Gronk has been hurt repeatedly. And every time the patriots coaches have massively changed the offense out of necessity.

Did manning deal with anything close to that? He stayed with the same offensive coordinator the whole time, and brought that same offense to Denver. Harrison played his whole career with the Colts and was barely ever injured. Wayne played his whole career with the Colts. Clark and edge played most of their careers there too. All of them knew that offense inside and out because of the unparalleled offensive coaching and personnel consistency manning enjoyed.

You could take any NFL team and insert names here...
except the Colts during manning's tenure. And that's the point.

of course it is

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Love Peyton. One of my personal favorite players of all time. But it's Brady, and it's not even close now... if Peyton had won maybe another SB they'd be very close, buuut.....

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Does Manning get to add the firing of the Aden coaching staff to his resume?

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there's also a lot to be said for being in the right place at the right time

Absolutely. Almost all HOF players in the history of the NFL (and all pro sports) were aided to some degree by being in the right place at the right time. Like Brady being drafted to play for Belichick. Brady may have turned out to be great if he went to another franchise, but I think it is very likely he wouldn't have had close to the same level of postseason success.

Keep on trolling, though. It seems to be what you are best at.

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Almost all HOF players in the history of the NFL (and all pro sports) were aided to some degree by being in the right place at the right time. Like Brady being drafted to play for Belichick. Brady may have turned out to be great if he went to another franchise, but I think it is very likely he wouldn't have had close to the same level of postseason success.

Great point. I think most would agree that Manning would have been awesome no matter where he went (except maybe Oakland :lol:), while Brady definitely caught on at the right place at the right time. Of course, Brady being as great as he's been is a huge reason why the Patriots have won so many games over the years, but I think you get my point. But hey, things happen how they happen. I had this greatest QB ever convo with a co-worker today and we both agree that Manning and Brady have been so awesome that there really is no wrong answer. Both are in the greatest QB ever conversation. :yes:

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Does Manning get to add the firing of the Aden coaching staff to his resume?

coach killer

lol

Might be some truth to that, ironically. It was fox's success with Tebow that had him at the top of the list of head coaches before manning arrived.

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over a 3 year stretch in the prime of my career I was 0-3 in the playoffs, 46/88 52% for 503 total yds with 0 td and 4 picks

WHO AM I?

sry if I'm peeing on anybody's childhood icons

Montana certainly had a trough in the middle of his career. In his 3 consecutive one-and-done's, SF got outscored 102-30 and his passer ratings were 65, 34, and 42.

omg spoiler alert

and, if I might add, not to pile on or otherwise besmirch an american icon, this is on a team that outspent the rest of the league prior to fa and salary caps, throwing to a guy who is generally regarded as the best receiver of all time.

when brady got moss he rewrote record books.

Montana won 2 SBs before Rice was even in the league.

and in those 6 playoff games he threw 13 td to 9 picks.

in the '84 run his defense gave up 26 total points in those 3 games.

So, you are basically saying that stretch he played was poor?

that's you posting that -- I don't see the word 'poor' in my posts.

if you want me to come out and grade it

over a 3 year stretch in the prime of my career I was 0-3 in the playoffs, 46/88 52% for 503 total yds with 0 td and 4 picks

on a steinbrenneresque roster throwing to the greatest reciever of all time is poor

very poor

extremely poor

the kind of poor that costs your team 3 championships

13:9 is much better than that, but not what I'd call best ever in the history of forever clutch when the money's on the table.

but it's better than poor

what I'm saying is that on brady's latest title march, pats d just gave up more points in a single playoff game than niners gave up in all three playoff games combined in '84, but of course we give joe all the credit.

what I'm saying is that on brady's latest title march, his #1 receiver is a converted qb who was drafted in the 7th to play special teams, while montana built his legend throwing to the greatest receiver in the history of football.

what I'm saying is that joe montana was an excellent qb who happened to be in the right place at the right time, but is also closer to being the figurehead of a team that bought championships than the greatest qb in the history of the nfl.

that's what I'm saying

Brady doesn't have a great WR this year. But he does have a TE who many people have said is the best ever when healthy. Edelman is good at what he does though.

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here's some stuff I dug up a while back about the niners for some other thread

not to take away from the great teams of yesteryear, but most of those dynasties were prior to salary caps and free agency, and weren't exactly on a level playing field.just as an illustration, since there are so many threads about which qb is the greatest and which are chokers --- in 1990, the great joe montana led his team to a league best 14 wins and the conference championship.the final 4 teams that year were all top 7 in team payroll, but one had even an extra edge -- one of those final 4 teams had a payroll 25% higher than the other 3 teams, 50% higher than league median, and actually 100% higher than a rival in their own division.that team? the niners.since the board seems to like these thought experiments so much, I wonder what brady's legacy would be if we turned the clock back 5-6 years, gave the pats an extra 30-60m in annual payroll, while knocking the jets down 40m.I wouldn't mind seeing brady throwing to fitz with peterson in the backfield and a couple pro-bowlers on defense.

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If Brady were to win another championship, especially if he played well in the Super Bowl against the Seahawks defense, I would probably move him into the Montana tier.

As things stand, Montana and Brady both won multiple Super Bowls. Both have had deep playoff runs with uncompelling supporting casts (at least on offense) and with great supporting casts. Both have played for HOF caliber head coaches and strong overall coaching staffs.

For me, two things put Montana in the top tier and Brady in the next tier:

1. Montana has one more ring and is 4-0 in the Super Bowl. Not only that, he has arguably been the best Super Bowl QB in history.

2. Montana did it 2 decades earlier, when the rules were not as favorable to QBs or to offenses in general.

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As for Unitas, it seems to me that those asking why he would be in the top tier don't have an appreciation of what he accomplished.

1. 3 NFL championships and a Super Bowl championship

2. Led team to comeback win in 1958 NFL championship in "the greatest game ever played" which is credited for increasing the popularity of pro football

3. 3 time MVP and 5 time first team All Pro

4. 36 4Q comebacks and 40 game winning drives

5. Held record for most consecutive games with a TD for 52 years until Brees broke it; that is staggering when considering the evolution of the NFL passing rules over that span

6. Led league in passing yards 4 times, passing TDs 4 times, yards per game 4 times, YPA 3 times, interception percentage 2 times, and passer rating 3 times

7. Top 5 in the league in passing yards 11 times, passing TDs 9 times, passer rating 11 times

8. First QB to pass for 40K yards

9. Still #10 all time in YPA, #19 all time in YPC and passing TD percentage, and #11 all time in total offense; again, IMO that is staggering given the evolution of NFL rules and the QB position

10. Called his own plays

11. Made the NFL's 50th and 75th anniversary teams

So he won titles, won impressive honors/awards, put up great statistics, set a new standard at the QB position, and helped popularize football at a time when it did not enjoy the popularity it enjoys today.

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I'm in no position to have any kind of opinion on johnny u, but comparing the league of that era to the modern nfl is kind of a joke.

think they maybe only had 10 teams (?) when he was playing, and he rolled into the league just a few years after the first black players were admitted --- how many blacks were typically on a roster in the 50s?

there has obviously been a steady evolution of rules changes, but i think maybe pre-merger and post-merger might be a convenient demarcation.

the reality is that there has been no qb that has even come close to brady's accomplishments under the conditions and competition he's produced them in.

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If Bill Bellichek had coached Peyton Manning, they'd have about 8 rings right now.

You have to look at best QBs of an era. They are not comparable between eras.

Early days - Sammy Baugh, Otto Graham

60s - Unitas, Dawson, Starr

70s - Bradshaw, Staubach, Tarkenton

80s - Montana, Marino

90s - Elway, Young

00s - Brady, Manning

10s - Rodgers, ?

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As for Unitas, it seems to me that those asking why he would be in the top tier don't have an appreciation of what he accomplished.

1. 3 NFL championships and a Super Bowl championship

2. Led team to comeback win in 1958 NFL championship in "the greatest game ever played" which is credited for increasing the popularity of pro football

3. 3 time MVP and 5 time first team All Pro

4. 36 4Q comebacks and 40 game winning drives

5. Held record for most consecutive games with a TD for 52 years until Brees broke it; that is staggering when considering the evolution of the NFL passing rules over that span

6. Led league in passing yards 4 times, passing TDs 4 times, yards per game 4 times, YPA 3 times, interception percentage 2 times, and passer rating 3 times

7. Top 5 in the league in passing yards 11 times, passing TDs 9 times, passer rating 11 times

8. First QB to pass for 40K yards

9. Still #10 all time in YPA, #19 all time in YPC and passing TD percentage, and #11 all time in total offense; again, IMO that is staggering given the evolution of NFL rules and the QB position

10. Called his own plays

11. Made the NFL's 50th and 75th anniversary teams

So he won titles, won impressive honors/awards, put up great statistics, set a new standard at the QB position, and helped popularize football at a time when it did not enjoy the popularity it enjoys today.

Agreed with the Unitas assessment as tier 1. We've forgotten how good he was, especially relative to his peers. He would've been great in the modern era as well.

I'd put Brady in tier 1 along with Joe Cool and Jihnny U.

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As for Unitas, it seems to me that those asking why he would be in the top tier don't have an appreciation of what he accomplished.

1. 3 NFL championships and a Super Bowl championship 5 afc championships, 9 afccg, 3 super bowl championships so far

2. Led team to comeback win in 1958 NFL championship in "the greatest game ever played" which is credited for increasing the popularity of pro football led game winning drives against rams and panthers and played in five superbowl games decided by one score.

3. 3 time MVP and 5 time first team All Pro 2 time mvp 3 time first team all pro

4. 27 4Q comebacks and 29 game winning drives 34 4q comebacks and 45 game winning drives

5. Held record for most consecutive games with a TD for 52 years until Brees broke it; that is staggering when considering the evolution of the NFL passing rules over that span[tied that record

6. Led league in passing yards 4 times, passing TDs 4 times, yards per game 4 times, YPA 3 times, interception percentage 2 times, and passer rating 3 times Led larger league in yards 2x, tds 3x, QB rating 2x

7. Top 5 in the league in passing yards 11 times, passing TDs 9 times, passer rating 11 times 5, 8 and 4, respectively, but in much larger league. Expand to top six or more and those numbers go way up

8. First QB to pass for 40K yards first QB to pass for 50 tds. Has over 53k passing yards to date

9. Still #10 all time in YPA, #19 all time in YPC and passing TD percentage, and #11 all time in total offense; again, IMO that is staggering given the evolution of NFL rules and the QB position top five in all categories and counting

10. Called his own plays same

11. Made the NFL's 50th and 75th anniversary teams seems likely to make the 100th

So he won titles, won impressive honors/awards, put up great statistics, set a new standard at the QB position, and helped popularize football at a time when it did not enjoy the popularity it enjoys today.

Interesting to put them side by side. It's always hard to compare across eras - being top five in a smaller nfl is easier, but compiling stats is easier today for example. I think brady compares more favorably than you might have expected, but Johnny u is clearly incredibly impressive. Thanks for taking the time.

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I think at this point with all these high quality QBs with huge stats retiring you are almost going to have to make a pitch as to whether he belongs in the HOF. One more playoff stinker and I could easily see HOF passing on him the first time for some other names that could actually perform on the big stage, not stat padding against the AFC West.

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I think at this point with all these high quality QBs with huge stats retiring you are almost going to have to make a pitch as to whether he belongs in the HOF. One more playoff stinker and I could easily see HOF passing on him the first time for some other names that could actually perform on the big stage, not stat padding against the AFC West.

QBs are almost always first ballot. I don't see any possible way Peyton is not a first ballot guy. He's won what, 5 MVPs?

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As for Unitas, it seems to me that those asking why he would be in the top tier don't have an appreciation of what he accomplished.

1. 3 NFL championships and a Super Bowl championship 5 afc championships, 9 afccg, 3 super bowl championships so far

2. Led team to comeback win in 1958 NFL championship in "the greatest game ever played" which is credited for increasing the popularity of pro football led game winning drives against rams and panthers and played in five superbowl games decided by one score.

3. 3 time MVP and 5 time first team All Pro 2 time mvp 3 time first team all pro

4. 27 4Q comebacks and 29 game winning drives 34 4q comebacks and 45 game winning drives

5. Held record for most consecutive games with a TD for 52 years until Brees broke it; that is staggering when considering the evolution of the NFL passing rules over that span[tied that record

6. Led league in passing yards 4 times, passing TDs 4 times, yards per game 4 times, YPA 3 times, interception percentage 2 times, and passer rating 3 times Led larger league in yards 2x, tds 3x, QB rating 2x

7. Top 5 in the league in passing yards 11 times, passing TDs 9 times, passer rating 11 times 5, 8 and 4, respectively, but in much larger league. Expand to top six or more and those numbers go way up

8. First QB to pass for 40K yards first QB to pass for 50 tds. Has over 53k passing yards to date

9. Still #10 all time in YPA, #19 all time in YPC and passing TD percentage, and #11 all time in total offense; again, IMO that is staggering given the evolution of NFL rules and the QB position top five in all categories and counting

10. Called his own plays same

11. Made the NFL's 50th and 75th anniversary teams seems likely to make the 100th

So he won titles, won impressive honors/awards, put up great statistics, set a new standard at the QB position, and helped popularize football at a time when it did not enjoy the popularity it enjoys today.

Interesting to put them side by side. It's always hard to compare across eras - being top five in a smaller nfl is easier, but compiling stats is easier today for example. I think brady compares more favorably than you might have expected, but Johnny u is clearly incredibly impressive. Thanks for taking the time.

Why did you change what I posted about Unitas' 4Q comebacks and game winning drives? As I posted, Unitas had 36 and 40, respectively. Which, like many things, is more impressive due to the era difference (e.g., how much better is FG kicking in Brady's era than in Unitas's).

I'm not aware that Brady calls his own plays in the same way Unitas did.

Finally, IMO Unitas set a new standard for the QB position. As great as he has been, I wouldn't say the same about Brady.

It is not a disservice to Brady to say that he is a tier below Unitas.

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Interesting to put them side by side. It's always hard to compare across eras - being top five in a smaller nfl is easier, but compiling stats is easier today for example. I think brady compares more favorably than you might have expected, but Johnny u is clearly incredibly impressive. Thanks for taking the time.

:lmao: I didn't even notice that

the guy actually listed top 5 credentials in an all white 10 team league in 1952 on the goat resume.

ok

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I think at this point with all these high quality QBs with huge stats retiring you are almost going to have to make a pitch as to whether he belongs in the HOF. One more playoff stinker and I could easily see HOF passing on him the first time for some other names that could actually perform on the big stage, not stat padding against the AFC West.

oh come on now

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If Bill Bellichek had coached Peyton Manning, they'd have about 8 rings right now.

You have to look at best QBs of an era. They are not comparable between eras.

Early days - Sammy Baugh, Otto Graham

60s - Unitas, Dawson, Starr

70s - Bradshaw, Staubach, Tarkenton

80s - Montana, Marino

90s - Elway, Young

00s - Brady, Manning

10s - Rodgers, ?

I think this is the best way to look at it.

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As for Unitas, it seems to me that those asking why he would be in the top tier don't have an appreciation of what he accomplished.

1. 3 NFL championships and a Super Bowl championship 5 afc championships, 9 afccg, 3 super bowl championships so far

2. Led team to comeback win in 1958 NFL championship in "the greatest game ever played" which is credited for increasing the popularity of pro football led game winning drives against rams and panthers and played in five superbowl games decided by one score.

3. 3 time MVP and 5 time first team All Pro 2 time mvp 3 time first team all pro

4. 27 4Q comebacks and 29 game winning drives 34 4q comebacks and 45 game winning drives

5. Held record for most consecutive games with a TD for 52 years until Brees broke it; that is staggering when considering the evolution of the NFL passing rules over that span[tied that record

6. Led league in passing yards 4 times, passing TDs 4 times, yards per game 4 times, YPA 3 times, interception percentage 2 times, and passer rating 3 times Led larger league in yards 2x, tds 3x, QB rating 2x

7. Top 5 in the league in passing yards 11 times, passing TDs 9 times, passer rating 11 times 5, 8 and 4, respectively, but in much larger league. Expand to top six or more and those numbers go way up

8. First QB to pass for 40K yards first QB to pass for 50 tds. Has over 53k passing yards to date

9. Still #10 all time in YPA, #19 all time in YPC and passing TD percentage, and #11 all time in total offense; again, IMO that is staggering given the evolution of NFL rules and the QB position top five in all categories and counting

10. Called his own plays same

11. Made the NFL's 50th and 75th anniversary teams seems likely to make the 100th

So he won titles, won impressive honors/awards, put up great statistics, set a new standard at the QB position, and helped popularize football at a time when it did not enjoy the popularity it enjoys today.

Interesting to put them side by side. It's always hard to compare across eras - being top five in a smaller nfl is easier, but compiling stats is easier today for example. I think brady compares more favorably than you might have expected, but Johnny u is clearly incredibly impressive. Thanks for taking the time.

Why did you change what I posted about Unitas' 4Q comebacks and game winning drives? As I posted, Unitas had 36 and 40, respectively.

Weird. Look at this page - same site, different page - and it lists his numbers differently.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/gwd_career.htm?mobile=false

Either way, brady has more. But it's weird that the numbers come out different. Must use different criteria or something.

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If Bill Bellichek had coached Peyton Manning, they'd have about 8 rings right now.

You have to look at best QBs of an era. They are not comparable between eras.

Early days - Sammy Baugh, Otto Graham

60s - Unitas, Dawson, Starr

70s - Bradshaw, Staubach, Tarkenton

80s - Montana, Marino

90s - Elway, Young

00s - Brady, Manning

10s - Rodgers, ?

I think this is the best way to look at it.

Funny that Brees will end up with better regular season career stats than Brady and could catch Manning (if he retires), yet he seems to get little love in the discussion of top current era QBs (Rodgers, Brady, Manning). I suspect it is due to him having so many attempts that one would expect huge numbers. He has 5 of the top 10 seasons in passing yardage.

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If Bill Bellichek had coached Peyton Manning, they'd have about 8 rings right now.

You have to look at best QBs of an era. They are not comparable between eras.

Early days - Sammy Baugh, Otto Graham

60s - Unitas, Dawson, Starr

70s - Bradshaw, Staubach, Tarkenton

80s - Montana, Marino

90s - Elway, Young

00s - Brady, Manning

10s - Rodgers, ?

I think this is the best way to look at it.

Funny that Brees will end up with better regular season career stats than Brady and could catch Manning (if he retires), yet he seems to get little love in the discussion of top current era QBs (Rodgers, Brady, Manning). I suspect it is due to him having so many attempts that one would expect huge numbers. He has 5 of the top 10 seasons in passing yardage.

funny how the 2 guys vying for the crazy passing records both happen to be dome guys

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