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On Schemes And Talent - What Takes Primacy? (1 Viewer)

Bob Magaw

Footballguy
the answer is... it depends of course, but you should consider both (pedigree & opportunity shouldn't be overlooked, either)...to illustrate, take probable starting IND safeties bob sanders & mike doss.i think sanders will stay at more natural position of SS & doss will play somewhat out of position at FS, despite fact that coverage is not a strong suit for doss & he already proved himself effective at SS his rookie year b4 last year's injury-marred effort... also, sanders may be even more athletic & might be not only NOT a liability in coverage, but actually good at it.but because he started over doss at end of season when latter was healthy (with bashir at FS), & i think he can be a bigger difference maker in run support than doss from that position... they are similarly athletic, talented in run support and almost certainly the two most talented safeties on roster (despite similar phyical traits and skill set)... it make sense to get them both on field & deploy them with doss at FS.that said, EVEN IF sanders ends up at FS with doss at SS... until i saw how it actually shook out, i would not rush to trade sanders for doss b4 first game.the hit man is so gifted he could imo still outpoint doss from FS... even if at times doss were to cheat up closer to LOS as SS (& many times in cover two they line up about same level in deep halves formation). doss ran a 4.4 at pro day, but he seems to play more like a 4.5 (not to dis doss... he was a three time All-American & was often called a coach on the field for his almost ed reed-like football IQ & leadership)... sanders was easily fastest safety at his combine following year with a sub-4.4 & he plays like a 4.3 speed merchant... he compensates for sub-5'9" ht with 40"+ hops.sanders has telepathic instincts & run/pass read & recognition skills, & has a good chance to get to the spot first consistently. he is a playmaker & has been a johnny-on-the-spot too long in college & so far in the pros to be random or a fluke. he gets to the ball carrier, & if he can stay healthy could put up some massive, monster numbers (especially from SS as expected).sometimes when looking at IDPs & trying to parse the talent & scheme divide, break down a player (really at every position) by their instincts, first step, do they avoid false steps & are they generally flowing in the right direction... do they take good pursuit angles... can they sift through traffic... do they have the burst, suddenness & explosiveness to close on the ball carrier... can they break down in the open field, wrap up & finish the deal?if the answer is yes to a lot of these questions, talent may supersede & take primacy over scheme...this is why ostensibly sack challenged DT position wouldn't prevent snaring kevin williams or rod coleman at certain point.an exercise to think about is DJ williams, recently thought of as one of the brightest IDP prospects from class of '04 but suddenly many are down on him due to move to SLB... could he outpoint ian gold, back from TB exile & a season more removed from '03 knee injury... himself a physical specimen (was faster pre-knee injury with reported blazing 4.4 speed), great athlete (though not the pedigree of DJ... former USA TODAY national player of the year as LB & 40 TD+ TD scoring FB... who madden once said was the only prep he ever saw who could go directly to pros) and seemingly favored scheme-wise & better positioned to rqack up a lions share of tackles, getting to pursue largely unchecked from weak side, while DJ has to cover TEs & fight through more blocks?* edit/add - it would be good to think of other examples around the league to sharpen some of these distinctions, & add to the collective repertoire of examplars & the old principle tool kit, by which & with which to attack similar problems & positional conundrums in the future.

 
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Sanders FS (link below)

Link

Like you said it depends.

FS Gibril Wilson and SS Shaun Williams (Doss/Sanders II)

Thomas Davis

Morgan will get hurt...a g a i n, Witherspoon slides to the mike and Davis to will.

 
a link befitting a former NFL commish :)great linky... i double checked FBG team report & ourlads depth chart... that is first mention i have heard of sanders at FS (guess my post is more relevant & less speculative based on latest news)... this could bump up doss, who i guess i might say his talent makes his production more scheme-linked, dependent or driven.good examples with davis... he is so talented i almoost don't care where he lines up... my druthers would be WLB, SS than SLB... but he is so gifted i think he will be a beast among boys even as a rookie & will get his no matter what.also nice with wilson/williams... that dude got a sack or INT every week for about half the season (along with punching out 6 solos per game like a time clock) when pressed into action with almost immediate stoutmire/williams injuries... b4 he himself got injured. if they turn him loose, he has the speed, instincts & sense of blitz timing to get 4+ sacks & be among DB leaders... also the aerial skills & ability to make plays on the ball to enable 3+ INTs a season... in big play leagues he could be a serious weapon... the lengthy stinger injury (ended his season & he missed almost half i think) & fact that his value was high anyway allowed us to parlay him (& butler) for witherspoon... gotta like young stud LB, but if wilson can stay healthy that could be a pretty even trade. i could easily see wilson outpoint williams even in redraft leagues, & with age disparity wilson much better dynasty prospect.strong side 3-4 OLB julian peterson could definitely outpoint his weak side counterpart jamie winborn.SLB dansby might be more valuable than whoever lines up at WLB for cards. if WLB brookings numbers stay the same as last season, demorrio williams could be huge value if he wins falcons SLB position... he has the talent to put up comparable or better numbers... could be a smaller, derrick brooks-like voracious open field tackler.at certain point in the draft, antoine winfield out-tackles many LINEBACKERS, let alone DBs. stud MLB usually outpoints stud WLB in many schemes, but briggs plays brooks-like role in ex-TB coach lovie smith's iteration of dungy/kiffin'scover two... he could come close to uhrlacher (not inconceivable he might outpoint him) & probably be available later.FS sean taylor could definitely outpoint SS bowen if he gets enuf INTs... this could still make bowen better value if he racks up tackles & can stay healthy.DJ might outscore bell even if he plays SLB.brodney pool looks like such an impressive playmaker & tackler i would have no reservations getting him as the #2 safety in this class after thomas davis but ahead of atogwe and bullocks.pollack could rack up a lot of points from SLB if he is as good as advertised?

 
Interesting on Sanders at FS ...Who is more valuable from a FF standpoint, Sanders at FS or Sean Jones if he wins the Browns SS spot? Both are coming off of injuries, although Sanders had PT ... both second round picks last year ... any thoughts?

 
I'm not sure all teams have a designated SS/FS, I mean they are listed as that, but I think, teams have it so their saftey's are interchangable. Somewhat like right side - left side linebackers some teams deploy. Seattle use to do this with Brown and Simmons.I still like Sanders over Doss. Just watching Sanders play, he is dynamite in a bottle. I'm not a big numbers guy, I like to watch and make my own evaluation. I don't think there was any defensive player that impressed me more than Sanders last year. In PFW's 2004 Draft Preview, they stated if Sanders was few inches taller he would be better prospect than Sean Taylor. :eek: With Minnesoya D looking to be much improved and better LB play, Winfields numbers may decline, but will still be very good.I really like Pollack, he should be a very good scoring SLB.I also like rookie Lance Mitchell of Arizona. Think Green stole him in the 5th round.would not be surprised at all to see him start at MLB at some point this year.Ruud is another rookie I like alot, along with Thurman (if he can stay out of trouble). Tatupa has a great opportunity, just has to beat out Niko, and I think he will.

 
Interesting on Sanders at FS ...

Who is more valuable from a FF standpoint, Sanders at FS or Sean Jones if he wins the Browns SS spot? Both are coming off of injuries, although Sanders had PT ... both second round picks last year ... any thoughts?
Jones could put up big numbers if he wins the SS spot. I drafted him on a new dynasty league last week and was very excited to get him. I think Sanders at FS is the better player and Jones has the better scheme.

Tough call on this one I like 'em both. You know Sanders will be starting though.

 
i think jones will start at SS if his knee is OK.the question is how long it will take pool to beat out russell at FS.martz specifically addressed the point of specialization of labor when he drafted atogwe... they aren't using conventional SS/FS designations anymore (giants were like this, with shaun williams being decent in coverage & stoutmire able to clock ball carriers). rams want safeties athletic & with diverse enuf skill set to be able to run, hit, cover & make plays on the ball... that sounds like atogwe... it awaits to be seen how jerome carter can cover, though he looks the part in run support.offenses are getting good at recognizing & exploiting matchups presented by SS who can't cover or FS who can't tackle. not counting thomas davis, college SLB & FS (though probable SS/OLB in pros), i didn't count any onther SSs in day one of the 2005 draft. pool & bullocks went in 2nd & atogwe in 3rd... SSs don't go off the board until carter, sanders, sensabaugh & nicholson in 4th & 5th.as if maybe front office & coaches league wide concluded that it was easier to take FS with athleticism to cover & coach them up to tackle... maybe it is tougher to take a solid tackling SS & try & teach them how to cover... if coverage has a lot to do with innate skills... sure there is element that can be learned, too, but maybe a large part of that skill set is natural ability & talent that can't be taught?

 
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This is partly conjecture, because the G-Men havent had both Wilson and Williams on the field together before, but I do expect them to be quasi-interchangable at FA/SS. Sometimes, a personnel change also dictates schemes. This is another reason why so many IPD's can be much more difficult to predict, FF-wise, IMHO.

 
(1) "SLB" Jaimie Sharper: has both superior talent and the Anthony Simmons precedent.(2) Erik Coleman/Reggie Tongue: Last year, Coleman stole Tongue's SS job in August, and then mid-season Coleman moved to FS and Tongue got SS back. I'm not sure how they're lining up this year.

 
strong side 3-4 OLB julian peterson could definitely outpoint his weak side counterpart jamie winborn.
Curious. Is the Andre Carter LB experiment over already?
good question... he might be situational pass rusher... he wouldn't seem to be good fit as undersized DE if they are serious about conversion to 3-4...latest depth chart lists smith & ulbrich at ILB & peterson & winborn at OLB... of course, winborn has missed a lot of games due to injuries in past few seasons.

 
strong side 3-4 OLB julian peterson could definitely outpoint his weak side counterpart jamie winborn.
Curious. Is the Andre Carter LB experiment over already?
good question... he might be situational pass rusher... he wouldn't seem to be good fit as undersized DE if they are serious about conversion to 3-4...latest depth chart lists smith & ulbrich at ILB & peterson & winborn at OLB... of course, winborn has missed a lot of games due to injuries in past few seasons.
The 49ers are one of the few teams to actually have an updated depth chart on their official website. Much like Magaw said, Smith and Ulbrich are listed as the ILB's while Winborn (weakside) and Peterson (strongside) are listed as the OLB's. Carter is listed as a backup to Winborn at the moment.link:

http://www.sf49ers.com/team/depth.asp

 
If Carter ends up as situational pass rusher and Winborn takes the role of run stopper, then it could render them both almost useless for fantasy purposes. And the fact that the official team site has defined Carter as a LB not a DE means that MFL will do likewise. Frankly, this news sucks. :banned: Carry on…

 
(1) "SLB" Jaimie Sharper: has both superior talent and the Anthony Simmons precedent.

(2) Erik Coleman/Reggie Tongue: Last year, Coleman stole Tongue's SS job in August, and then mid-season Coleman moved to FS and Tongue got SS back. I'm not sure how they're lining up this year.
Looks like Coleman has the FS job locked..... Toungue and Mcgraw will fight for the SS spot. McGraw has been very injury prone, and Tongue is long in the tooth. They may even be in a rotation. I don't think rokie Kerry Rhodes is anywhere near eady to be a starter, and that remains a question too, can he ever be more than a ST player? Before I convince my self he can't, I have to remind myself of what Coleman did last year.
 
Not sure if any of you guys caught this, but there was a very interesting piece of information that I tried to highlight in Saturday's email update.

The Broncos are playing LeSueur at strong safety instead of the "free"position, which actually has evolved into the spot closer to the lineof scrimmage in run support within Denver's defensive scheme.
I believe I had a discussion with someone on the board (maybe Rovers?) a little while ago about whether Nick Ferguson would be playing SS or FS. John Lynch is listed as the FS almost everywhere you look, but that doesn't really match with the type of player he is. With the new information, I guess this means that Lynch will often line up on the weak side of the formation, but closer to the line of scrimmage in a run support role. Meanwhile, Nick Ferguson will line up on the strong side of the formation but further back in the secondary. Seems like this would help the tackle numbers of the FS compared to most schemes, but not quite enough to make him equal to a "true" SS in a normal scheme. Also, seems like this would hurt the numbers of the SS, so I doubt that Ferguson will be in position to rack up the same type of tackle numbers that Kenoy Kennedy (a superior run defender) did last year.
 
Yeah, Aaron, that was indeed something we bounced around. I took over an orphan dynasty team, and got Ferguson cheap after Kennedy signed with Detroit, so I have tried to figure out what sort of role both Ferguson and Lynch will have in Denver's scheme. Since that conversation, I have seen a few places where Lynch is listed as the SS too though, and I guess this tid bit of yours :thumbup: explains some of the confusion. This almost sounds like a variation of the 46, into a 45 defense? Maybe they plan on having Lynch do some blitzing from there?

 
The Colts play quite a bit of Cover-2 coverage and their two safety position are practically interchangeable. I think we'll see Sanders lining up closer to the line at maybe a 60-to-40 percent clip more than Doss. Regardless Sander is a much better athlete and he's a cut above Doss as a football player (fantasy or otherwise).Also Shaun Williams began his career as a FS with the Giants and only moved to SS two years ago b/c the team wasn't thrilled with Omar Stoutmire's ability to stop the run. It seems likely he will once again line up at FS with Gibril Wilson being the fulltime SS (that could be a heck of a fantasy safety duo btw)-

 
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The Colts play quite a bit of Cover-2 coverage and their two safety position are practically interchangeable. I think we'll see Sanders lining up closer to the line at maybe a 60-to-40 percent clip more than Doss. Regardless Sander is a much better athlete and he's a cut above Doss as a football player (fantasy or otherwise).

Also Shaun Williams began his career as a FS with the Giants and only moved to SS two years ago b/c the team wasn't thrilled with Omar Stoutmire's ability to stop the run. It seems likely he will once again line up at FS with Gibril Wilson being the fulltime SS (that could be a heck of a fantasy safety duo btw)-
depth charts showing wilson at FS... he is probably the best SS & FS on the team (sort of like when roy williams, no doubt a better SS than darren woodson... at least at that stage of his career... played FS because woodson would have been bigger liability in coverage)... run support more of a strength of williams than coverage... wilson is a better ball hawk, is a bit undersized for SS (15-20 lbs lighter than williams, i think?)... though guys like minter at 190 have thrived there... they also may want to protect him with the neck stinger that cost half the season... he looks like he could be a special player & maybe they have questions about how he would hold up at SS... i know i did... though if roles are truly interchangable that would scrap that theory, & it wouldn't matter who is designated SS & FS.regardless, wilson, if healthy could easily put up similar or better numbers because he is so talented... he did get a lot of points from sacks, so hopefully he is still afforded opportunity to blitz.

williams could be a sleeper... he was pacing for a decent season (top 15-20 in a league of mine) b4 going down with knee injury.

 
Shaun Williams has always been a solid fantasy player... when healthy. Unfortunately injuries have robbed him of the majority of the last two seasons. But the guy is still only 28 years old and he's a greater fantasy sleeper pick-

 

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