Hines Ward (1 Viewer)

wannabee · Jul 31, 2005

Sorry if Honda. Just found this article:Steelers Say They've Stopped Negotiations With WardFirst Major Holdout for Pittsburgh in 12 YearsBy ALAN ROBINSON, AP SportsLATROBE, Pa. (July 31) - Hines Ward became the Pittsburgh Steelers' first major holdout in 12 years Sunday, keeping his promise not to report to training camp without a contract extension that would make him one of the NFL's top-paid wide receivers. Once Ward missed the 6 p.m. EDT reporting deadline, Steelers director of football operations Kevin Colbert said negotiations were over until Ward shows up - something the four-time Pro Bowl receiver has insisted that he won't do without a new deal.Ward, with one year remaining on a contract worth $1.66 million this season, apparently has two choices: End his holdout and continue talks, as Steelers Pro Bowl running back Barry Foster did in 1993, or sit out the season, as three-time Pro Bowl linebacker Mike Merriweather did in 1988.Several teammates made impassioned pleas for the team to re-sign Ward, with linebacker Joey Porter saying the Steelers "can't win without him." And Colbert himself seemed uncomfortable talking about a missing player he often has cited for his unselfishness and team-first attitude."We understand Hines Ward is a special player and always has been ... but, sometimes, there's going to be a disagreement," Colbert said. "The policy has always been that, if a player is under contact, he has to be in camp for any negotiations to go forward. Without the player here, there won't be any exchange."Ward's absence threatens to create a major distraction for a team that went 15-1 and reached the AFC championship game last season, and leaves quarterback Ben Roethlisberger without either starting wide receiver from his breakthrough rookie season.Plaxico Burress signed with the Giants because the Steelers couldn't afford to keep both him and Ward. They preferred to keep Ward, whose production and toughness - he is widely considered the NFL's top-blocking receiver - have personified the Steelers' offense for years. He is within 33 catches of breaking Hall of Famer John Stallworth's team career record of 537 receptions.Ward's salary last season was only a fraction of that of top receivers such as the Colts' Marvin Harrison, the Raiders' Randy Moss and the Eagles' Terrell Owens, counting bonuses and the prorated share of signing bonuses. The current impasse is mostly the result of Ward wanting much of his money in an eight-figure signing bonus, but the Steelers preferring to pay him in salary - something he wouldn't earn if the team ever cut him for salary-cap reasons.Asked if Ward deserves a new contract, running back Jerome Bettis said, "What do you think? He's like the 40th paid wide receiver in the league."All-Pro linebacker James Farrior said the Steelers' camp won't be the same without Ward's never-take-a-down-off attitude, attention to detail and production. Ward has surpassed the team's former single-season record of 85 receptions three times, including a team-record 112-catch season in 2002."The way he plays and the way he approaches the game, everybody kind of follows what he does," Farrior said. "He's a great player and does all the little things and a lot of the young guys look up to him to get their motivation and see how he does things, because he's always doing it right."07/31/05 21:28 EDT

Irish · Jul 31, 2005

This could get real interesting. I'm on the Steelers side on this one. If you are under contract then you have to be in camp with the rest of the team before negotiations can continue. Luv ya Hines Ward, but the team comes first.

Cecil Lammey · Jul 31, 2005

This is the type of distraction that the Steelers don't need. I wish they would just hurry up and pay him already. The guy has done everything you could possibly ask for.

tommyGunZ · Jul 31, 2005

Ward has played the past 2 seasons at a salary far below his market value. It's time for the Steelers to pay the piper, give Ward his 8 figure bonus, and be done with it.This should never have gotten this far - the Steelers are completely in the wrong here.

rzrback77 · Jul 31, 2005

I don't know the Steeler's history well, but aren't they considered fairly frugal? I can see them taking a hard line apporoach with Hines Ward because he's under contract regardless of the fairness of the amount.With them having already lost Burress, they would be left with a rookie TE, a 2nd year QB, a slot receiver at the only starting WR. Sounding pretty desperate.

Pat Patriot · Jul 31, 2005

What is his fair market value? Isnt his market value what a team would be willing to pay him and what he would be willing to sign for? Since he has a signed contract, hasnt his market value been established? He has a contract that he willingly signed, he should be in camp.

AhrnCityPahnder · Jul 31, 2005

Lets play hypothetical here: Say there is no more negotiations, and things stay as they are through camps and into preseason.Do you (interested in any/all opinions here) think that Hines has the stones to sit out for a year?

Mr. Vegas · Jul 31, 2005

This could get real interesting. I'm on the Steelers side on this one. If you are under contract then you have to be in camp with the rest of the team before negotiations can continue. Luv ya Hines Ward, but the team comes first.

Really,and you must be 10 years old.Do you have a real job?

If you were getting paid 75k and you should be paid 95k would you just

keep working and say nothing until raise time?

Please. :wall:

tommyGunZ · Jul 31, 2005

What is his fair market value? Isnt his market value what a team would be willing to pay him and what he would be willing to sign for? Since he has a signed contract, hasnt his market value been established? He has a contract that he willingly signed, he should be in camp.

Uh, no.His market value is FAR higher than what his contract stimpulates he's to be paid this year. Check back in a week and you'll see something more along the lines of Ward's market value.

SteveUK · Jul 31, 2005

Lets play hypothetical here: Say there is no more negotiations, and things stay as they are through camps and into preseason.

Do you (interested in any/all opinions here) think that Hines has the stones to sit out for a year?

I don't know if Ward is the sort to sit out a year.But I'd say the Steelers need him this year very badly. How many straight losses before Steelers crawl back?

tommyGunZ · Jul 31, 2005

Lets play hypothetical here: Say there is no more negotiations, and things stay as they are through camps and into preseason.

Do you (interested in any/all opinions here) think that Hines has the stones to sit out for a year?

Good question. My guess is yes, since he's only scheduled to make 1.6, and the fans have to be on his side.This is a PR nightmare for the Steelers.

AhrnCityPahnder · Jul 31, 2005

Dunno if this is honda or not, but I don't recall seeing it posted in the poolKirwan, from nfl.com

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By Pat KirwanNFL.com Senior Analyst(July 30, 2005) -- Make no mistake about it, when it comes to a complete football player, Hines Ward fits the bill. He can catch the ball, he's a willing blocker, he's a leader, he's a worker and he's tough. What a team like the Steelers should pay for his services is an interesting subject. Does the team react to the intangibles and the production and make him a one of the top-paid receivers of all time? Do they drill down into the production and arrive at the point where they believe he's worthy of the money the fifth-best receiver in the NFL deserves, or do they low ball him and put the ceiling at the 10th-highest-paid receiver?Well, it's a difficult decision to make, and as much as the Steelers fans admire all the things Ward does on the field, my brief discussions with other team officials lead me to believe that somewhere between the fifth- and eighth-highest-paid receivers is the right spot for Mr. Ward. This is a complicated situation to resolve because some of Ward's production numbers over the past four seasons say he's worth the big bucks, and other numbers suggest the top five highest paid receivers is too high for him. Before I get into a discussion about his contract situation, look at how Ward stacks up against the top receivers in the league. Note that young, budding stars like Roy Williams, Anquan Boldin and even Andre Johnson aren't in the comparison because their body of work isn't extensive enough to use for this discussion. Statistics and "number conversations" aren't the answer to this negotiation, but they are critical to understanding some of the comparisons being made when it comes to salary. Here is a look at Ward versus the top receivers over the past four seasons -- 2001-2004.

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Name Receptions Receiving yds. Yds. Per catch TDs Third-down rec. Third-down TDs H. Ward 381 4,495 11.8 30 20 1R. Moss 346 4,947 14.3 47 15 7T. Owens 350 5,014 14.3 51 16 3M. Harrison 432 5,631 13.0 51 16 3J. Horn 343 4,949 14.4 37 23 4T. Holt 383 5,733 14.9 33 23 4J. Smith 320 4,352 13.6 25 16 2D. Mason 343 4,611 13.4 29 23 1

I can't list Chad Johnson, Andre Johnson, Reggie Wayne or Javon Walker, but all of those young wide receivers are worthy of discussion when comparing Ward's recent production, and certainly future production. Who knows what Roy Williams, Mike Williams and Michael Clayton are going to be doing in the next few years? The point is Ward is a very good football player and he does all the things I admire most in a real pro.But when it comes to paying a wide receiver as one of the top five at his position, I have to ask the following questions. Does he change coverages? Does he demand double coverage, even on running downs? Does he score touchdowns? I know he's one heck of a blocker, but I asked a defensive coordinator in the NFL this question: Do you fear a great blocking wide receiver more than a wide receiver you have to roll coverage to? His answer was, "A guy like Randy Moss, Terrell Owens or even Andre Johnson prevents me from dropping a safety into the box on a number of run-down situations. That frustrates me more."To back up the fear of a special wide receiver for a defensive coordinator he pointed to the fact that the Minnesota Vikings have had five different running backs carry the ball in the past three years, yet the team still has a league-leading 4.9 yards-per-carry average in that time. Moss demanded that much attention. The Texans are experimenting with moving Andre Johnson around to try and free up the receiver from double coverage, but maybe his presence also explains why Domanick Davis has rushed for 2,219 yards and 21 touchdowns in two seasons.Finally, I would want Ward on my team and because he has such great character. I could see a deal with the biggest signing bonus in Steelers history, but I'm not so sure I would pay him as one of the top five receivers in the league. There's a price for being a very good team in the NFL.

Chaz McNulty · Jul 31, 2005

This could get real interesting. I'm on the Steelers side on this one. If you are under contract then you have to be in camp with the rest of the team before negotiations can continue. Luv ya Hines Ward, but the team comes first.

Horrible post.

If you were Hines Ward what would you do.

Play the season for 1.66 Million and hope to not have a career ending injury.

Wait one year, and sign with someone for 4M a season with a 10M signing bonus.

There is really no decision here. Why even risk going to training camp for that kind of money. The Steelers need to pay the man.

I also heard that he wanted to renogotiate last year, but the Steelers promised him that if he played the season out he would get his new contract.

rzrback77 · Jul 31, 2005

I think that since Ward has been a consummate (sp) team guy for several years and the roster players that the Steelers have without him will enable him to force theh Steelers into negotiating sooner rather than later. His position is strong to bargain with.I did however hear that the team did offer him a contract already, do any of y'all know if it was a reasonable increase of an offer?

Idiot Boxer · Jul 31, 2005

This is not black and white (or black and gold).Hines deserves to be paid. Yes.The Steelers offered a contract which would be the most lucrative in Steelers history and he implied that it "wasn't even close"The Steelers should pay up, but I expect that Hines' expectations are a little higher than they should be.

AhrnCityPahnder · Jul 31, 2005

I think that since Ward has been a consummate (sp) team guy for several years and the roster players that the Steelers have without him will enable him to force theh Steelers into negotiating sooner rather than later. His position is strong to bargain with.

I did however hear that the team did offer him a contract already, do any of y'all know if it was a reasonable increase of an offer?

There havent been any concrete reports of what the offer was, but rumors have it that the sticking point that caused HW to reject it was the signing bonus amount. It's rumored that the Steelers offered ~$8M and Ward wants $13M.

Irish · Jul 31, 2005

This could get real interesting. I'm on the Steelers side on this one. If you are under contract then you have to be in camp with the rest of the team before negotiations can continue. Luv ya Hines Ward, but the team comes first.

Click to expand...

Really,and you must be 10 years old.Do you have a real job?

If you were getting paid 75k and you should be paid 95k would you just

keep working and say nothing until raise time?

Please.

It doesn't take a ten yr old to figure out that if I refuse to show up for work then I'm now making $0 instead of the 75k that I signed a contract to work for. You're the one who has to get out of mommy's house and found out how the real world works.

Dancing Bear · Jul 31, 2005

From what I have read, the Steeler's did make Ward the most lucrative contract offer ever of any previous Steeler. Steeler Contract Offer

Ward is clearly a top receiver, but he is not a Top 5 receiver.

His hold-out will be determined by whether he has been able to plan for the future; if he has saved money over the last 4 years, then he can probably hold-out the year. If however he has lived the life of most professional athletes, he needs every dime and cannot afford to hold-out.

Within the last 3 months he sold his condo and bought a much more expensive home in Pittsburgh. My guess is that he cannot hold-out for long ...

I think that there is much precedent to believe that the Steelers will not budge. They have clearly stated that there will be no further discussions until Ward reports. My guess is that he either sits or comes crawling into the Steel City within the next week.

Irish · Jul 31, 2005

This could get real interesting. I'm on the Steelers side on this one. If you are under contract then you have to be in camp with the rest of the team before negotiations can continue. Luv ya Hines Ward, but the team comes first.

Click to expand...

Horrible post.

If you were Hines Ward what would you do.

Play the season for 1.66 Million and hope to not have a career ending injury.

Wait one year, and sign with someone for 4M a season with a 10M signing bonus.

There is really no decision here. Why even risk going to training camp for that kind of money. The Steelers need to pay the man.

I also heard that he wanted to renogotiate last year, but the Steelers promised him that if he played the season out he would get his new contract.

If Ward does not show up this yr the Steelers still have him under contract for 1 more yr at the same 1.66 million that he would have made the previous yr and now he is also 1 yr older. Ward has just as much to lose as the Steelers if he holds out all yr. Steelers promised him that they would negotiate a new deal this yr and they have held up their end of the promise. Hines and his agent should talk to Mike Merriweather to see if they think the Steelers will just let him sit out the entire yr.

Chaz McNulty · Jul 31, 2005

This could get real interesting. I'm on the Steelers side on this one. If you are under contract then you have to be in camp with the rest of the team before negotiations can continue. Luv ya Hines Ward, but the team comes first.

Click to expand...

Horrible post.

If you were Hines Ward what would you do.

Play the season for 1.66 Million and hope to not have a career ending injury.

Wait one year, and sign with someone for 4M a season with a 10M signing bonus.

There is really no decision here. Why even risk going to training camp for that kind of money. The Steelers need to pay the man.

I also heard that he wanted to renogotiate last year, but the Steelers promised him that if he played the season out he would get his new contract.

Click to expand...

If Ward does not show up this yr the Steelers still have him under contract for 1 more yr at the same 1.66 million that he would have made the previous yr and now he is also 1 yr older. Ward has just as much to lose as the Steelers if he holds out all yr. Steelers promised him that they would negotiate a new deal this yr and they have held up their end of the promise. Hines and his agent should talk to Mike Merriweather to see if they think the Steelers will just let him sit out the entire yr.

Are you sure it works that way. Maybe there's a percentage of games he has to show up for to validate the year. I seem to remember Joey Galloway sitting out half the year but returning at a certain point so his contract would expire. This may be what Hines would do.Pittsburg would be stupid to let this happen. I would say that time favors Ward in this case if this is his plans.

tommyGunZ · Jul 31, 2005

From what I have read, the Steeler's did make Ward the most lucrative contract offer ever of any previous Steeler. Steeler Contract Offer

Ward is clearly a top receiver, but he is not a Top 5 receiver.

His hold-out will be determined by whether he has been able to plan for the future; if he has saved money over the last 4 years, then he can probably hold-out the year. If however he has lived the life of most professional athletes, he needs every dime and cannot afford to hold-out.

Within the last 3 months he sold his condo and bought a much more expensive home in Pittsburgh. My guess is that he cannot hold-out for long ...

I think that there is much precedent to believe that the Steelers will not budge. They have clearly stated that there will be no further discussions until Ward reports. My guess is that he either sits or comes crawling into the Steel City within the next week.

dude, cancel the Source subscription and stop watching re-runs of Cribs. Hines Ward can afford to pass on the 1.6 in his contract and not get off his couch until next spring when he's signing a $30MM deal with another team.

tommyGunZ · Jul 31, 2005

If Ward does not show up this yr the Steelers still have him under contract for 1 more yr at the same 1.66 million that he would have made the previous yr and now he is also 1 yr older. Ward has just as much to lose as the Steelers if he holds out all yr. Steelers promised him that they would negotiate a new deal this yr and they have held up their end of the promise. Hines and his agent should talk to Mike Merriweather to see if they think the Steelers will just let him sit out the entire yr.

Not trying to disrespect, but you should do a bit more lurking before coming with this kind of stuff. This is the Shark Pool fool.

Chaz McNulty · Jul 31, 2005

"Ward and his agents have countered in negotiations that the four-time Pro Bowler should be paid relative to where he ranks among NFL receivers and not based on what the Steelers have paid their players in the past."The Steelers must be an awfully cheap franchise if they're basing their negotiations off of what past Steeler contracts offer, rather then what other WR's of Ward's skill set make.

Mr. Vegas · Jul 31, 2005

This could get real interesting. I'm on the Steelers side on this one. If you are under contract then you have to be in camp with the rest of the team before negotiations can continue. Luv ya Hines Ward, but the team comes first.

Click to expand...

Really,and you must be 10 years old.Do you have a real job?

If you were getting paid 75k and you should be paid 95k would you just

keep working and say nothing until raise time?

Please.

Click to expand...

It doesn't take a ten yr old to figure out that if I refuse to show up for work then I'm now making $0 instead of the 75k that I signed a contract to work for. You're the one who has to get out of mommy's house and found out how the real world works.

Like I said,you would just go to work and say nothing.That's what's wrong with people now,keep your mouth shout and say nothing.

Come here sonnie I have something for you,if your a good boy. :lmao:

tommyGunZ · Jul 31, 2005

"Ward and his agents have countered in negotiations that the four-time Pro Bowler should be paid relative to where he ranks among NFL receivers and not based on what the Steelers have paid their players in the past."

The Steelers must be an awfully cheap franchise if they're basing their negotiations off of what past Steeler contracts offer, rather then what other WR's of Ward's skill set make.

CrossEyed · Jul 31, 2005

I love Hines Ward, but I have to side with the Steelers here. This is a team that runs first to win. No way should a receiver in this offense be paid like Harrison or Moss. They offered him the largest deal ever offered to a Steeler. That should be enough. I've watched the Steelers long enough to know that they won't blink first. They want to win, but they will stand on their principle. They don't negotiate with holdouts.

tommyGunZ · Jul 31, 2005

I love Hines Ward, but I have to side with the Steelers here. This is a team that runs first to win. No way should a receiver in this offense be paid like Harrison or Moss. They offered him the largest deal ever offered to a Steeler. That should be enough. I've watched the Steelers long enough to know that they won't blink first. They want to win, but they will stand on their principle. They don't negotiate with holdouts.

Chaz McNulty · Aug 1, 2005

I love Hines Ward, but I have to side with the Steelers here. This is a team that runs first to win. No way should a receiver in this offense be paid like Harrison or Moss. They offered him the largest deal ever offered to a Steeler. That should be enough. I've watched the Steelers long enough to know that they won't blink first. They want to win, but they will stand on their principle. They don't negotiate with holdouts.

Does the contract that they offered him equate to what the 6th or 7th best WR in the league makes.People keep saying that it's the biggest contract ever offered to a steeler, but with the way they can manipulate contracts that doesn't mean much.

They could offer him a 4 yr - 100M contract. That would be the largest contract in Steeler history. However, if the contract pays:

1st year - 1M

2nd year - 1M

3rd year - 1M

4th year - 97M

Then obviously it would be a horrible contract. They just cut him after the 3rd year. I need to see the details of the contract before I start to believe the propaganda that the Pittsburg brass is spewing.

AhrnCityPahnder · Aug 1, 2005

The Steelers must be an awfully cheap franchise if they're basing their negotiations off of what past Steeler contracts offer, rather then what other WR's of Ward's skill set make.

The Steelers are a not a cheap franchise, they are right up against the salary cap and have been for several years (just like most other teams). It's just a question of how that money is allotted.Who do you think the other NFL WRs that are of Ward's skillset?

CrossEyed · Aug 1, 2005

The Steelers must be an awfully cheap franchise if they're basing their negotiations off of what past Steeler contracts offer, rather then what other WR's of Ward's skill set make.

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The Steelers are a not a cheap franchise, they are right up against the salary cap and have been for several years (just like most other teams). It's just a question of how that money is allotted. Who do you think the other NFL WRs that are of Ward's skillset?

Exactly. And for a team that wins with defense and ball-control, it only makes sense to allot a certain amount of the cap space to a WR. This isn't Indianapolis.

tommyGunZ · Aug 1, 2005

The Steelers must be an awfully cheap franchise if they're basing their negotiations off of what past Steeler contracts offer, rather then what other WR's of Ward's skill set make.

Click to expand...

The Steelers are a not a cheap franchise, they are right up against the salary cap and have been for several years (just like most other teams). It's just a question of how that money is allotted.Who do you think the other NFL WRs that are of Ward's skillset?

How many WRs mean as much to their franchise as Hines Ward? Ward sitting out the season is disaster for the Steelers. They look cheap and disloyal not paying the most popular player on the team who keep quiet and packed his lunch for years, and we all know how important loyalty is to the faithful in Pittsburgh. - 2006 is a lost season - they'll be lucky to finish .500 w/o Ward.

- You're playing roulette with Big Ben's future. He'll get eaten alive with no threats on the outside, instead of continuing to build ont he successes of '05.

- Heath Miller gets a rough introduction to the NFL.

It's lose, lose, lose, lose, lose for the Steelers. So what if they overpay by a couple of million; they've gotten a bargain for the last 2-3 years.

Pay up cheap #####es.

dotman · Aug 1, 2005

Ward has played the past 2 seasons at a salary far below his market value. It's time for the Steelers to pay the piper, give Ward his 8 figure bonus, and be done with it.

This should never have gotten this far - the Steelers are completely in the wrong here.

This is as cut and dry as it gets. The Steelers have had a bargain for the past couple years and Ward has earned a big contract with his play. He deserves every dollar he will get because there is no way the Steelers do not give him a big pay day. I don't understand why they haven't already. I honestly think Hines means as much to his team as any player in the league.

Dot

AhrnCityPahnder · Aug 1, 2005

This came from an article about TO in a philly site, but pertinant information to chew on with regard to recent large WR contracts:http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/sports/11904694.htm

Randy Moss, Oakland (a)Year signed: 2001Total years and value: 8 years, $75 millionGuaranteed money: $18 millionOther bonuses: $1.4 million over the life of the contractAverage annual value, first 3 years: $9 millionMarvin Harrison, IndianapolisYear signed: 2004Total years and value: 8 years, $72.5 millionGuaranteed money: $23 millionRoster bonuses: $7 million due in 2005, $10 million due in 2006.Average value, first 3 years: $10.2 million.Terrell Owens, EaglesYear signed: 2004Total years and value: 7 years, $49 millionGuaranteed money: $9.2 million.Roster bonuses: $7.5 million due in 2006Average value, first 3 years: $7 million.Jimmy Smith, JacksonvilleYear signed: 2002Total years and value: 6 years, $28 millionGuaranteed money: $11.9 millionOther bonuses: $2.35 million over the life of the contractAverage value, first 3 years: $6.3 millionEric Moulds, Buffalo (b)Year signed: 2005Total years and value: 3 years, $18 millionGuaranteed money: $5 millionOther bonuses: not availableAverage value first 3 years: $6 millionJoe Horn, New OrleansYear signed: 2004Total years and value: 6 years, $41 millionGuaranteed signing bonus: $7 millionRoster bonuses: $11.9 million over the final five years of the dealAverage value, first 3 years: $5.4 millionTorry Holt, St. Louis ©Year signed: 2003.Total years and value: 7 years, $42 millionGuaranteed money: $12.5 millionOther bonuses: $5.5 million over the final five years of the dealAverage value, first 3 years: $5.4 millionRod Smith, DenverYear signed: 2002Total years and value: 7 years, $40 millionGuaranteed money: $11 millionRoster bonuses: $3.3 million over life of the deal.Average value, first 3 years: $5.1 million.Derrick Mason, BaltimoreYear signed: 2005Total years and value: 5 years, $20 millionGuaranteed money: $8 millionOther bonuses: noneAverage value, first 3 years: $4.7 millionIsaac Bruce, St. LouisYear signed: 2000Total years and value: 7 years, $41.5 millionGuaranteed money: $2.9 millionOther bonuses: $5.5 million over the final five years of the dealAverage value first 3 years: $3.5 milliona-deal was signed with Minnesota and restructured this off-season with Oakland.b-deal reworked in 2005.c-deal restructured in 2005.SOURCE: NFLPAComparing the ReceiversThe NFL's top 10 receivers in terms of overall yardage over the last five seasonslayer Games Rec. Yards TDsTorry Holt 80 465 7,368 39Marvin Harrison 79 534 7,044 65Terrell Owens 73 447 6,465 65Randy Moss 77 425 6,416 62Joe Horn 79 437 6,289 45Rod Smith 78 455 5,961 34Isaac Bruce 79 388 5,925 33Jimmy Smith 75 411 5,590 33Derrick Mason 77 406 5,506 34Eric Moulds 77 413 5,345 26

Here are Ward'd #s over that span. Now you need to point out that Ward didn't really emerge until 2001, so his #s in 2000 were not as high as the next 4 years. 80 429 5171 34So, he stays healthy, he gets a ton of receptions, but not the yards or TDs of the super-elite. He has a leg up on most of them with blocking and grit. So if you are ranking them, where does he fall? Keep in mind I am not taking sides in this at all. I respect that Hines wants to get paid. I don't want the Steelers to eff up their money pool for the next few years as we will have to re-ink several pivotal people on our team. I don't know what the answer is. :shrug:

CrossEyed · Aug 1, 2005

Ward has played the past 2 seasons at a salary far below his market value. It's time for the Steelers to pay the piper, give Ward his 8 figure bonus, and be done with it.

This should never have gotten this far - the Steelers are completely in the wrong here.

Click to expand...

This is as cut and dry as it gets. The Steelers have had a bargain for the past couple years and Ward has earned a big contract with his play. He deserves every dollar he will get because there is no way the Steelers do not give him a big pay day. I don't understand why they haven't already. I honestly think Hines means as much to his team as any player in the league.

Dot

Did you miss the part about them offering him the biggest contract in their history?

Unlucky · Aug 1, 2005

Ward can sit out the first 10 games, then play the last 6 and become a free agent at the end of the season. If he sits out the entire season, his contract doesn't count for this year and it rolls into next year. Ward sitting out 10 games will really hurt the Steelers. The Steelers need Ward. Some stats have been posted here, and it's hard to say how highly paid Ward should be. He isn't a top 5 fantasy WR, and he's not as big a threat as Moss, TO, Harrison, or Holt. (or some others) However, he also plays in a run-first offense, and hasn't been counted on like those WRs. But, he has put up some very good seasons.

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| Year  TM |   G |   Att  Yards    Y/A   TD |   Rec  Yards   Y/R   TD |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+| 1998 pit |  16 |     1     13   13.0    0 |    15    246  16.4    0 || 1999 pit |  16 |     2     -2   -1.0    0 |    61    638  10.5    7 || 2000 pit |  16 |     4     53   13.2    0 |    48    672  14.0    4 || 2001 pit |  16 |    10     83    8.3    0 |    94   1003  10.7    4 || 2002 pit |  16 |    12    142   11.8    0 |   112   1329  11.9   12 || 2003 pit |  16 |    11     61    5.5    0 |    95   1163  12.2   10 || 2004 pit |  16 |     7     25    3.6    1 |    80   1004  12.6    4 |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+|  TOTAL   | 112 |    47    375    8.0    1 |   505   6055  12.0   41 |

We remember his dismal 4 TD effort last year, but in 2002 and 2003, he scored double digit TDs and was quite valuable. Ward turned 29 last March, and clearly has many solid seasons ahead of him. The Steelers need to pay him. I have to take Ward's side in this. He deserves the guaranteed money. I don't see him as a risky commitment for the Steelers. Ward has played the last few years at below market value, he played last year with the promise of a re-negotiation this year, and he deserves a contract extension.The Steelers need Ward in camp more than Ward needs to be in camp. From the article, you can see that he's a team leader, and is a positive force on the practice field. Roethlisberger needs Ward there to continue to develop. The Steelers are being too stubborn in refusing to negotiate while Ward misses camp.

Irish · Aug 1, 2005

If Ward does not show up this yr the Steelers still have him under contract for 1 more yr at the same 1.66 million that he would have made the previous yr and now he is also 1 yr older. Ward has just as much to lose as the Steelers if he holds out all yr. Steelers promised him that they would negotiate a new deal this yr and they have held up their end of the promise. Hines and his agent should talk to Mike Merriweather to see if they think the Steelers will just let him sit out the entire yr.

Click to expand...

Not trying to disrespect, but you should do a bit more lurking before coming with this kind of stuff. This is the Shark Pool fool.

Thanks Mr. T.

Irish · Aug 1, 2005

The Steelers must be an awfully cheap franchise if they're basing their negotiations off of what past Steeler contracts offer, rather then what other WR's of Ward's skill set make.

Click to expand...

The Steelers are a not a cheap franchise, they are right up against the salary cap and have been for several years (just like most other teams). It's just a question of how that money is allotted.Who do you think the other NFL WRs that are of Ward's skillset?

Click to expand...

How many WRs mean as much to their franchise as Hines Ward? Ward sitting out the season is disaster for the Steelers. They look cheap and disloyal not paying the most popular player on the team who keep quiet and packed his lunch for years, and we all know how important loyalty is to the faithful in Pittsburgh. - 2006 is a lost season - they'll be lucky to finish .500 w/o Ward.

- You're playing roulette with Big Ben's future. He'll get eaten alive with no threats on the outside, instead of continuing to build ont he successes of '05.

- Heath Miller gets a rough introduction to the NFL.

It's lose, lose, lose, lose, lose for the Steelers. So what if they overpay by a couple of million; they've gotten a bargain for the last 2-3 years.

Pay up cheap #####es.

Blah Blah Blah Blah

Mr. Vegas · Aug 1, 2005

If Ward does not show up this yr the Steelers still have him under contract for 1 more yr at the same 1.66 million that he would have made the previous yr and now he is also 1 yr older. Ward has just as much to lose as the Steelers if he holds out all yr. Steelers promised him that they would negotiate a new deal this yr and they have held up their end of the promise. Hines and his agent should talk to Mike Merriweather to see if they think the Steelers will just let him sit out the entire yr.

Click to expand...

Not trying to disrespect, but you should do a bit more lurking before coming with this kind of stuff. This is the Shark Pool fool.

Click to expand...

Thanks Mr. T.

Can I have another? :lmao:

Thanks for making my point. :thumbup:

Chaz McNulty · Aug 1, 2005

Randy Moss, Oakland (a)

Year signed: 2001

Total years and value: 8 years, $75 million

Guaranteed money: $18 million

Other bonuses: $1.4 million over the life of the contract

Average annual value, first 3 years: $9 million

Marvin Harrison, Indianapolis

Year signed: 2004

Total years and value: 8 years, $72.5 million

Guaranteed money: $23 million

Roster bonuses: $7 million due in 2005, $10 million due in 2006.

Average value, first 3 years: $10.2 million.

Terrell Owens, Eagles

Year signed: 2004

Total years and value: 7 years, $49 million

Guaranteed money: $9.2 million.

Roster bonuses: $7.5 million due in 2006

Average value, first 3 years: $7 million.

Jimmy Smith, Jacksonville

Year signed: 2002

Total years and value: 6 years, $28 million

Guaranteed money: $11.9 million

Other bonuses: $2.35 million over the life of the contract

Average value, first 3 years: $6.3 million

Eric Moulds, Buffalo (b)

Year signed: 2005

Total years and value: 3 years, $18 million

Guaranteed money: $5 million

Other bonuses: not available

Average value first 3 years: $6 million

Joe Horn, New Orleans

Year signed: 2004

Total years and value: 6 years, $41 million

Guaranteed signing bonus: $7 million

Roster bonuses: $11.9 million over the final five years of the deal

Average value, first 3 years: $5.4 million

Torry Holt, St. Louis ©

Year signed: 2003.

Total years and value: 7 years, $42 million

Guaranteed money: $12.5 million

Other bonuses: $5.5 million over the final five years of the deal

Average value, first 3 years: $5.4 million

Rod Smith, Denver

Year signed: 2002

Total years and value: 7 years, $40 million

Guaranteed money: $11 million

Roster bonuses: $3.3 million over life of the deal.

Average value, first 3 years: $5.1 million.

Derrick Mason, Baltimore

Year signed: 2005

Total years and value: 5 years, $20 million

Guaranteed money: $8 million

Other bonuses: none

Average value, first 3 years: $4.7 million

Isaac Bruce, St. Louis

Year signed: 2000

Total years and value: 7 years, $41.5 million

Guaranteed money: $2.9 million

Other bonuses: $5.5 million over the final five years of the deal

Average value first 3 years: $3.5 million

a-deal was signed with Minnesota and restructured this off-season with Oakland.

b-deal reworked in 2005.

c-deal restructured in 2005.

SOURCE: NFLPA

Comparing the Receivers

The NFL's top 10 receivers in terms of overall yardage over the last five seasons:

Player Games Rec. Yards TDs

Torry Holt 80 465 7,368 39

Marvin Harrison 79 534 7,044 65

Terrell Owens 73 447 6,465 65

Randy Moss 77 425 6,416 62

Joe Horn 79 437 6,289 45

Rod Smith 78 455 5,961 34

Isaac Bruce 79 388 5,925 33

Jimmy Smith 75 411 5,590 33

Derrick Mason 77 406 5,506 34

Eric Moulds 77 413 5,345 26

Click to expand...

Here are Ward'd #s over that span. Now you need to point out that Ward didn't really emerge until 2001, so his #s in 2000 were not as high as the next 4 years. 80 429 5171 34

So, he stays healthy, he gets a ton of receptions, but not the yards or TDs of the super-elite. He has a leg up on most of them with blocking and grit. So if you are ranking them, where does he fall?

I think a better ranking would be over the last 3 years (although the Pittsburg brass would prefer comparisons over the last 5 years). Do you have his ranking in comparison to the other WR's over the last 3 years?Outside of Moss, Owens, and Harrison, I think it could be argued that Ward's value falls anywhere from 4th to 10th (I would put him about 6th). I think just about every contract that you listed above would be the highest contract ever to a Steeler.

Steel City · Aug 1, 2005

If Ward doesn't get to camp, this is going to get ugly.

Chaz McNulty · Aug 1, 2005

What will probably happen is secret negotiations out of the public eye. They'll reach an agreement but not sign on it. Ward will report to camp and a great deal will miraculously follow in the next 48 hours. This way everyone saves face.

Irish · Aug 1, 2005

What will probably happen is secret negotiations out of the public eye. They'll reach an agreement but not sign on it. Ward will report to camp and a great deal will miraculously follow in the next 48 hours. This way everyone saves face.

Now what purpose would this serve? What would secretly negotiating accomplish that couldn't be done without all this posturing on both sides? IMO this will get all worked out, but not before Ward shows up with the rest of his teammates and negotiations can begin again.

Tau837 · Aug 1, 2005

Ward can sit out the first 10 games, then play the last 6 and become a free agent at the end of the season. If he sits out the entire season, his contract doesn't count for this year and it rolls into next year.

Ward sitting out 10 games will really hurt the Steelers. The Steelers need Ward.

Some stats have been posted here, and it's hard to say how highly paid Ward should be. He isn't a top 5 fantasy WR, and he's not as big a threat as Moss, TO, Harrison, or Holt. (or some others) However, he also plays in a run-first offense, and hasn't been counted on like those WRs. But, he has put up some very good seasons.

| Year TM | G | Att Yards Y/A TD | Rec Yards Y/R TD |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+| 1998 pit | 16 | 1 13 13.0 0 | 15 246 16.4 0 || 1999 pit | 16 | 2 -2 -1.0 0 | 61 638 10.5 7 || 2000 pit | 16 | 4 53 13.2 0 | 48 672 14.0 4 || 2001 pit | 16 | 10 83 8.3 0 | 94 1003 10.7 4 || 2002 pit | 16 | 12 142 11.8 0 | 112 1329 11.9 12 || 2003 pit | 16 | 11 61 5.5 0 | 95 1163 12.2 10 || 2004 pit | 16 | 7 25 3.6 1 | 80 1004 12.6 4 |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+| TOTAL | 112 | 47 375 8.0 1 | 505 6055 12.0 41 |We remember his dismal 4 TD effort last year, but in 2002 and 2003, he scored double digit TDs and was quite valuable. Ward turned 29 last March, and clearly has many solid seasons ahead of him. The Steelers need to pay him.

I have to take Ward's side in this. He deserves the guaranteed money. I don't see him as a risky commitment for the Steelers. Ward has played the last few years at below market value, he played last year with the promise of a re-negotiation this year, and he deserves a contract extension.

The Steelers need Ward in camp more than Ward needs to be in camp. From the article, you can see that he's a team leader, and is a positive force on the practice field. Roethlisberger needs Ward there to continue to develop. The Steelers are being too stubborn in refusing to negotiate while Ward misses camp.

I would also like to add a couple of notes:

1. Ward made the Pro Bowl in 2001, 2002, and 2003. IIRC 8 WRs make the Pro Bowl, so the clear implication is that he was a top 8 WR in those seasons.

2. Ward's dropoff last season coincided with a serious dropoff in passing attempts: 533 in 2003 and only 358 in 2004.

IMO it is foolish to think the Steelers will be able to continue to succeed with such an unbalanced attack. I expect they will need to throw much more often to succeed this year and in future years. Bettis will retire soon, and Staley is no spring chicken either. With Burress already gone and a young QB, they really need Ward.

AhrnCityPahnder · Aug 1, 2005

I think a better ranking would be over the last 3 years (although the Pittsburg brass would prefer comparisons over the last 5 years). Do you have his ranking in comparison to the other WR's over the last 3 years?

Outside of Moss, Owens, and Harrison, I think it could be argued that Ward's value falls anywhere from 4th to 10th (I would put him about 6th). I think just about every contract that you listed above would be the highest contract ever to a Steeler.

I didn't aribtrarily pick 5 years, the article was done with 5 year info already and I just did Ward's #s to fit into what was given. Horn's $7M signing bonus and $42M over six years was going to be the model for this contract from what I heard (all rumor, keep in mind) but Ward is talking about a signing bonus that is nearly 2x what Horn got. Granted, I think the saints set Horns deal so that he won't play more than 3 or 4 years of it...so it's not quite apples to apples. If you look above at the contracts that were signed in the past year...I'm confident that Ward was offered more than Moulds, more than Mason (as it should be) but it would appear that Ward wants more than that, money close to what TO is making. Not a good idea for the Steelers to pay that IMO.

Again, until we find out exactly what was offered and what was rejected....this is kind of pointless to argue about. But yet, here I am....

Idiot Boxer · Aug 1, 2005

Seems to me that most of the people arguing that Steelers should "shut up and pay Ward" are non-Steelers fans and non-Pittsburghers.This contract negotiation could become a black eye for either Ward or the Steelers, and likely both, if not resolved quickly.From what I understand in Pittsburgh and what I know about the people there...1. Ward is not the most loved Steeler (I believe that honor belongs to Bettis still), but close. As much of a "team player" as Ward has been over the years, he's neither the team leader or team player that Bettis is. Bettis has signed contracts below what would seem to be his market value, he's accepted diminished roles, and he's performed when asked to because he loves the city and the franchise. If Ward is perceived as being too selfish in these negotiations he will be compared unfavorably to Bettis.2. Steelers fans are fickle. While I think most Steelers fans appreciate Ward's skills and would love to see him paid, they also understand the financial realities of the NFL. Steelers fans do not like selfish prima donnas. Not saying that Ward is, but if his demands are too high, the fans will turn on him, and fast. He should not overestimate the fan goodwill he has in his negotiations.3. The Steelers are a frugal, but not cheap, franchise. Before Heinz Field, the Steelers had a revolving door of Free Agency. Since then, they've paid their players fairly well, making smart decisions on who to retain and when (usually). They've paid out some pretty big contracts when they've deemed them appropriate. I have no doubt that the offer to Ward was a good one, they should come up a little bit from it, but Ward needs to re-evaluate his position as well.4. Ward's agent is making a mistake in holding him out. The Steelers don't negotiate with hold-outs. This is very well known. By holding out, it prevents a deal from getting done, and the onus of that falls on Ward's shoulders, not the teams, because of this fact.Bottom line: Ward needs to get into camp, the Steelers need to increase their offer by a margin and Ward needs to accept it. The Steelers have a longview on their franchise and won't break their non-negotiation policy with Ward for fear of opening Pandora's Box. They will go into the year without him, if need be. The team will definitely struggle with Ward out, but if he believes the fans will be 100% on his side in this affair, he is woefully mistaken and will soon find himself falling into disfavor.

Franknbeans · Aug 1, 2005

Finally, a :goodposting:

Evilgrin 72 · Aug 1, 2005

What will probably happen is secret negotiations out of the public eye. They'll reach an agreement but not sign on it. Ward will report to camp and a great deal will miraculously follow in the next 48 hours. This way everyone saves face.

This is exactly what will happen. Both sides will realize they need the other - the Steelers will up the guaranteed money in the contract from the $8-9m range to the $10-11m range while dropping the annual salary a little to compensate and Ward will be starting week 1.

Idiot Boxer summed it up perfectly, so I don't need to. Thanks, IB.

migarvin · Aug 1, 2005

rolleyes1.gif

Horrible post.

If you were Hines Ward what would you do.

Play the season for 1.66 Million and hope to not have a career ending injury.

but you criticize Javon for not attempting to sit out for $500,000. :rolleyes:

Listen folks. Hines Ward is good but not that good. He's not, like the intelligent few claim on this board, a game breaker. He is not the god everyone is making him out to be. He wasn't even more of a threat than Burress at times. (And if you don't think i'm serious go look at some replays to see the corner covering Buress at times. I think Chris Mcalister (one of the best in the game) covers Burress exclusively twice or thrice a year. Burress had similar numbers to Hinez in 2001 & 2002 and was Big Ben's main target before going down last year. The Steelers balked at giving burress the 25 million for 6 years the Giants offerred, why would they offer Ward 42 million? Burress is younger and has more upside, but the steelers still offerred 30 something million with an 8 mill signing bonus. If he holds out he's doomed. Double Standards need not to apply

Remember people - The steelers run the football - it's their priority!

Gbagzz · Aug 1, 2005

This could get real interesting. I'm on the Steelers side on this one. If you are under contract then you have to be in camp with the rest of the team before negotiations can continue. Luv ya Hines Ward, but the team comes first.

Click to expand...

Horrible post.

If you were Hines Ward what would you do.

Play the season for 1.66 Million and hope to not have a career ending injury.

Wait one year, and sign with someone for 4M a season with a 10M signing bonus.

There is really no decision here. Why even risk going to training camp for that kind of money. The Steelers need to pay the man.

I also heard that he wanted to renogotiate last year, but the Steelers promised him that if he played the season out he would get his new contract.

Click to expand...

If Ward does not show up this yr the Steelers still have him under contract for 1 more yr at the same 1.66 million that he would have made the previous yr and now he is also 1 yr older. Ward has just as much to lose as the Steelers if he holds out all yr. Steelers promised him that they would negotiate a new deal this yr and they have held up their end of the promise. Hines and his agent should talk to Mike Merriweather to see if they think the Steelers will just let him sit out the entire yr.

Click to expand...

Are you sure it works that way. Maybe there's a percentage of games he has to show up for to validate the year. I seem to remember Joey Galloway sitting out half the year but returning at a certain point so his contract would expire. This may be what Hines would do.Pittsburg would be stupid to let this happen. I would say that time favors Ward in this case if this is his plans.

How is Ward top 5? Hands, Routes, intelligence, toughness, attitude all rank among the best. He's the best blocking WR out there. Harrison, Moss and Owens are more deep threats while Ward is more of a posession guy which is why he kind of lives in the shadows but that doesn't make him any less better or valuable

Chaz McNulty · Aug 1, 2005

Seems to me that most of the people arguing that Steelers should "shut up and pay Ward" are non-Steelers fans and non-Pittsburghers.

This contract negotiation could become a black eye for either Ward or the Steelers, and likely both, if not resolved quickly.

From what I understand in Pittsburgh and what I know about the people there...

1. Ward is not the most loved Steeler (I believe that honor belongs to Bettis still), but close. As much of a "team player" as Ward has been over the years, he's neither the team leader or team player that Bettis is. Bettis has signed contracts below what would seem to be his market value, he's accepted diminished roles, and he's performed when asked to because he loves the city and the franchise. If Ward is perceived as being too selfish in these negotiations he will be compared unfavorably to Bettis.

2. Steelers fans are fickle. While I think most Steelers fans appreciate Ward's skills and would love to see him paid, they also understand the financial realities of the NFL. Steelers fans do not like selfish prima donnas. Not saying that Ward is, but if his demands are too high, the fans will turn on him, and fast. He should not overestimate the fan goodwill he has in his negotiations.

3. The Steelers are a frugal, but not cheap, franchise. Before Heinz Field, the Steelers had a revolving door of Free Agency. Since then, they've paid their players fairly well, making smart decisions on who to retain and when (usually). They've paid out some pretty big contracts when they've deemed them appropriate. I have no doubt that the offer to Ward was a good one, they should come up a little bit from it, but Ward needs to re-evaluate his position as well.

4. Ward's agent is making a mistake in holding him out. The Steelers don't negotiate with hold-outs. This is very well known. By holding out, it prevents a deal from getting done, and the onus of that falls on Ward's shoulders, not the teams, because of this fact.

Bottom line: Ward needs to get into camp, the Steelers need to increase their offer by a margin and Ward needs to accept it. The Steelers have a longview on their franchise and won't break their non-negotiation policy with Ward for fear of opening Pandora's Box. They will go into the year without him, if need be. The team will definitely struggle with Ward out, but if he believes the fans will be 100% on his side in this affair, he is woefully mistaken and will soon find himself falling into disfavor.

Who looses the most if Ward sits out for 10 games and comes back for the remaining 6 to play out his contract. What most people forget is that this is Ward's last year of his contract. He would get a much bigger payday if he holds out and becomes an unrestricted free agent. You don't think that atleast one team would offer him much more than what Pittsburg is offering him. Ward cannot lose in this situation (besides the 62.5% of his current contract if he were to sit for 10 games).Pittsburg fans seem to think that the team holds all the cards when in fact Ward has all the bargaining power.

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