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:MERGED: Manning's Legacy Article (2 Viewers)
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Wilbur Wood
Footballguy
Yes it is and I apologize for it as it was not my intent. I saw the original Manning "HATE" thread last night. I wanted to consolidate my thoughts on the topic instead of issuing a "rapid response". By the time I had typed up my post this morning, it looked like the original thread had been "locked", so I simply started a new one (this thread), then I saw that there was already a new Manning thread that looked similar, so I also posted it there. Sorry if I violated some protocol with that maneauver, but I simply wanted to make some points relating to the fact it is a VALID football opinion at this stage to question Manning's playoff performance and not necessarily something that should be referred over to the Department of Justice as a "HATE Crime".Hi Wilbur,Isn't this the same thing you posted in the other thread?
J
harrison74
Footballguy
Peyton doesnt trust his teammates. Here are Edge's stats in the 13 wins he played in: 25.7 carries a gameIn the two losses to Pit and SD: 13 carries. Manning uses the run, which is the most effective part of the team, when things are going well, but he abandons it when things are tight. He calls all the plays, so he wants to correct things himself when things are not going well. Its not good.
Carter_Can_Fly
Footballguy
#4 Maybe James and Harrison are chockers!!! Your right Manning has not played amazing in those games but it can't fall soley on him. He does have to take responsibility and shoulder some of the blame, but he takes to much heat.Manning still has plenty of football left in him. If he wins a title or two he will go down as the GREATEST QB to ever play. Even if he does go out not winning a title he will be a top 5 QB ever in the NFL. Hate him all you want, but you can't deny that he is a great player.
#1. Manning has never won any championship at any level.
#2. he has a lifetime 3-6 playoff record.
#3. looks alot like Dan Fouts - i.e., great stats, no BIG WINS.
#4. Manning teams up with 2 of the best players in the history of the NFL, at their positions: Edge James, and Marvin Harrison.there is simply NO EXCUSE for him to ALWAYS lose big games.none at all.
#5. HE IS NO TOM BRADY you got that right!!
he is overrated..great regular season QB, maybe..but one of the worst postseason qb's , ever. isn't he tied with, or close to Danny White for most playoff appearances without playing in a SB?
3-6 is not a great playoff record and not having a SB is also not great either, but continuously making the playoffs, setting all sorts of records, always being one of the top teams in the league etc etc leaves some sort of legacy. Does he want to go out as not winning a SB??? NO. But he will still have a lasting legacy whether you like him or not.
Wilbur Wood
Footballguy
I disagree with the comparison to the pre-Super Bowl champ, John Elway. Some of the standard that only rings count, not me. Elway was extremely impressive in getting the Broncos to Super Bowls and AFC Title games. "The Drive" is just one example of his fine play. He had a much weaker supporting cast pre-Shannahan. I thought that he played an awesome 1st half during Super Bowl 25. Even if Manning had played much better in these 6 losses and still sported a 3-6 record I would be much kinder to him.Or looks a lot like John Elway. He'll win a couple three before he's done.
#3. looks alot like Dan Fouts - i.e., great stats, no BIG WINS.
pizzatyme
Footballguy
I hope it makes you feel better about yourself to be critical of him. I wonder what it would be like in a mans world if our signifigant other scrutinized our shortcomings as men they way we do this to our football heroes?!I love the Colts and appreciate Manning for what he brings to the game. Even if he will never win a "big game" he is still one of the greatest, atleast in the team photo.I disagree with the comparison to the pre-Super Bowl champ, John Elway. Some of the standard that only rings count, not me. Elway was extremely impressive in getting the Broncos to Super Bowls and AFC Title games. "The Drive" is just one example of his fine play. He had a much weaker supporting cast pre-Shannahan. I thought that he played an awesome 1st half during Super Bowl 25. Even if Manning had played much better in these 6 losses and still sported a 3-6 record I would be much kinder to him.Or looks a lot like John Elway. He'll win a couple three before he's done.
#3. looks alot like Dan Fouts - i.e., great stats, no BIG WINS.
But, keep on bashing.
redman
Footballguy
Before Elway won his two Super Bowls, these were his playoff stats with wins and losses:Or looks a lot like John Elway. He'll win a couple three before he's done.
#3. looks alot like Dan Fouts - i.e., great stats, no BIG WINS.
Year Opp Result | CMP ATT PYD PTD INT | RSH YD TD---------------------+--------------------------+----------------- 1983 sea L,7-31 | 10 15 123 0 1 | 3 16 0 1984 pit L,17-24 | 19 37 184 2 2 | 4 16 0 1986 nwe W,22-17 | 13 32 257 1 2 | 5 18 1 1986 cle W,23-20 | 22 38 244 1 1 | 4 56 0*1986 nyg L,20-39 | 22 37 304 1 1 | 6 27 1 1987 hou W,34-10 | 14 25 259 2 1 | 4 8 1 1987 cle W,38-33 | 14 26 281 3 1 | 11 36 0*1987 was L,10-42 | 14 38 257 1 3 | 3 32 0 1989 pit W,24-23 | 12 20 239 1 1 | 7 44 0 1989 cle W,37-21 | 20 35 385 3 0 | 5 39 0*1989 sfo L,10-55 | 10 26 108 0 2 | 4 8 1 1991 hou W,26-24 | 19 33 257 1 1 | 6 39 0 1991 buf L,7-10 | 11 21 121 0 1 | 4 10 0 1993 rai L,24-42 | 29 47 302 3 1 | 5 23 0 1996 jax L,27-30 | 25 38 226 2 0 | 5 30 0He was 7-8 overall, and had gotten his team (usually far worse teams than Manning has had IMHO) to 3 Super Bowls. Manning is 3-6 and has only ever reached his conference championship game once. While it's still somewhat early (Elway has six more years on his record above than Manning has now) Elways still got a jump on Peyton.
ICON211
Footballguy
Peyton Manning has not shown me that he is remotely like Elway. Before Elway won the superbowl he already had moments in the playoffs when he brought his team from behind to win games. Manning is a great downhill QB. When the team is ahead and things are going great he plays well. Mix in a little adversity and a little pressure and he folds. When the team is trailing and they need him to play his best he is at his poorest. Also, just to add I hate both Elway and Manning. But I have respect for Elway where I have zero for Manning.I disagree with the comparison to the pre-Super Bowl champ, John Elway. Some of the standard that only rings count, not me. Elway was extremely impressive in getting the Broncos to Super Bowls and AFC Title games. "The Drive" is just one example of his fine play. He had a much weaker supporting cast pre-Shannahan. I thought that he played an awesome 1st half during Super Bowl 25. Even if Manning had played much better in these 6 losses and still sported a 3-6 record I would be much kinder to him.Or looks a lot like John Elway. He'll win a couple three before he's done.
#3. looks alot like Dan Fouts - i.e., great stats, no BIG WINS.
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BlueOnion
Footballguy
He is 2-2 at home, and 1-4 on the road. Two of those post season losse should not count. Although Manning was young, Jim Mora Sr. was the coach of the team and I am pretty convinced Jim Mora Jr. could find a way to lose with the 1972 Dolphins in the post season.In the Tony Dungy era, Manning is 2-1 at home and 1-3 on the road; the road losses coming to New England, New England and the New York Jets.
As a complete body of work, it is still not pretty but I don't think things are as bleak a you make them out to be.
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Fumbleweed
Footballguy
Or, could it be that Manning didn't use Edge as much because the Colts defense allowed two Pittsburgh TDs the first two times Pittsburgh had the ball. Peyton Manning threw for 290 yards, 1 TD, and no interceptions. Never before have I seen that kind of performance downed so heavily.......
BlueOnion
Footballguy
Manning's number were still pretty good, I even forgot about that. But ultimately Manning will be judged by wins and losses because he makes up over half the team. Regardless, they didn't use Edge enough and their was no reason for them to abandon Edge until their was last than 5 minutes to go in the 4th quarter.
Fumbleweed
Footballguy
They were down 21-3 going into the 4th quarter.....are you saying that they should have kept running the ball even at that point? They needed 3-4 scores.
bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
A note about the whole Fouts thing.If SD's 1980 era team has the talent this colts team did on D, They would have gone to a superbowl. That team has the worst D I can remember.If I'm Dungy I take away the fake audible garbage and take alot of Manning's duties away too. Peyton has to much control and he lost it early for the Colts.Also, I guarantee. much like Shannahan had to learn, resting your players for more than one game will equal a serious momentum loss.
Fumbleweed
Footballguy
I'm afraid you have the facts mixed up. That was the drive in the second quarter that resulted in the Vanderjagt field goal. The drive at the start of the 4th saw Manning's 50-yard TD to Dallas Clark to make it 21-10. They rode Edge's back in the 2nd quarter....not in the 3rd/4th.
Fumbleweed
Footballguy
Which specific decisions are you referring to?
Hi bsn,I hear you but I really doubt they'd do this. Having an Offensive Coordinator on the field is a huge plus for the Colts. Watch tape sometimes of how they adjust. Or how they dictate to the defense keeping them from shuttling players in as Manning is set to start the play and have too many men on the field.
I don't disagree it's irritating to watch him take that much time at the line.
But it's a big advantage. Granted, you're only as good as your last game in this league but when Manning is orchestrating the offense and the Colts win, they love him for it.
As far as momentum, Andy Reid's a pretty solid coach and he did virtually the exact thing last year. FWIW, Cohwer said he'd have rested his players the same way if given the opportunity.
Like anything else, it's great when it works. Dumb when it doesn't.
J
redman
Footballguy
Joe, there's no doubt that they are operating at their maximum level of spontaneity with Manning running the offense as he does. The problem is that I don't think an on-field playcaller is detached enough from the emotions of the game, his own ego, the stress of executing plays, etc. to see the big picture sometimes, or to read into trends in the game. And the quick snap threat is a gimmick to me and isn't enough of a benefit to outweigh that, at least not all the time.
bostonfred
Footballguy
An interesting point that neither of Manning's coaches is known for clutch playoff performances. Then again, Mora has been saddled with Bobby Hebert, Steve Walsh, Wade Wilson, Jim "don't call me Chris" Everett, and Manning.
Dungy has been saddled with Trent Dilfer, Shaun King, Brad Johnson and Manning.
It's possible that one of the reasons neither coach has had great playoff success is that neither coach has had great quarterback play in the playoffs.
Mr Manning needs to be Qb quit the ego trip.Example the series after they scored by running the ball first they came out and threw three straght incomplete passes.Now if this was the first time this had happened in the playoffs I would be saying nothing or even the second time or third, but a trend is what it is.There is a problem with Indy and there play calling.That poses the question who is making these calls.I believe Mr Manning.Big Big Problem 
bostonfred
Footballguy
When Manning was pressing yesterday (in the second of the three game-losing drives he led), the Steelers correctly blitzed the heck out of him. Manning responded by taking two sacks, throwing an incomplete pass, and throwing a hookshot pass to his running back for no gain, losing more than ten yards and backing himself up to his own goal line.Similarly, when Manning failed to take key time outs, when he failed to complete a short pass on second or third down to get them in field goal range, when he has struggled to continue drives by throwing three yard passes when they needed four or more yards, when he has thrown long passes to get a quick score when the defense had just been on the field for a long drive, and so on - all of those things
When things are going well, it's great to have Manning back there calling the plays. Maybe the problem is that Manning can't handle the pressure of doing everything when things aren't going well. Maybe his head coach needs to recognize that Manning just isn't as good under pressure as he usually is, and take some of the responsibility out of his hands. Maybe they need someone else to step up and be the leader on the field when Manning has that look like he's about to wilt (a look I call the "Derek Lowe look". We saw it again yesterday right before the Polamalu "incomplete pass").
All I know is, every year we hear "Small sample size", and every year the sample size gets a little bigger and seems to say about the same things.
bostonfred
Footballguy
True, but Dungy only had one year with Brad Johnson (who threw four INTs in their first round playoff loss to Philly), and Dilfer was far from the focal point of the Baltimore team that won a Superbowl.Umm, two of those guys won a Super Bowl.
Hi Redman,That's a good point that maybe he's too close to it to be objective. I don't worry at all about the ego though. He's as good as it gets when it comes to "taking what the Defense gives". People forget the first month of the season where he didn't throw much and James went off. Teams made a point to stop the pass and he let them. While they ran.
I personally love the spontaneity his style affords. I think the reason most QBs don't do it is they don't have what it takes to do it themselves nor do they have the trust of the coaches. We saw a guy like Brady this year become more assertive in decision making at the line for instance. In my opinion, I think if you can do it, you do it.
J
bostonfred
Footballguy
Maybe it's not a coincidence that Brady made uncharacteristic mistakes against Denver this year. Or that the K Gun got far in the playoffs every year, but never won a Superbowl. Maybe that style of play is great at racking up yards and TDs, but can be beaten by a talented defense that puts a lot of pressure on the quarterback.
Hi bagger,I didn't hear Patrick today but can you expound more on that?
I think he's confusing making adjustments with being successful. I think they tried to adjust plenty. They just couldn't find an answer for what Pittsburgh was doing.
That's totally different from being an automaton and leading the lemmings off the cliff. I'd say Manning has a fault at going too far the other way trying to make too many adjustments.
Can you unpack more what he was saying there?
J
pizzatyme
Footballguy
Brobe, it's just not that simple. I know you are shedding some humor here, but there is a reason these teams are successful in the playoffs. They are successful against other teams that don't have a Peyton Manning. The point is solid though. The Colts need to consider:Mr Manning needs a book called (how to beat a blitz in the playoffs for dummies)
A) better, more consistent base schemes against the blitzing 3-4
and
B) I think they should consider playing a 3-4 themselves. If you can't beat them, join them! Better to practice against it day in and day out to make you more prepared.
I think Ron Turner is a good coach who lacks creativity in his scheme. Even with the playmakers they have, they still leak like a seive in crunch time.
It was quite obvious from my seat yesterday that there was no rhyme or reason for who was blitzing or from where.
All the preparation and "girations" at the line wasn't going to overcome this with their current game plan.
Run the ball and stop the run...the perfect cliche for the Colts to absorb.
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