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I have a crappy problem.

I just rented a house with two roommates and it's perfect - 4 BR, 2.5BA, basement. Good price.

We've been in the place for just over two weeks and today I received a call from the owner's agent saying they want to sell it and need us to move out so they can renovate.

Now we did sign a 1-year lease so I assume we have some rights in this case, but it seems like a tough situation because they would probably treat us like crap if we don't cooperate. Anyway, they've offered to have their agent assist us in finding a comparable place and pay us one months rent and moving expenses.

Is that an adequate compensation package? Should we seek some other recourse?

We're extremely disappointed, as it took a long time for us to find a house that suited our needs so well (we're a metal band that needs space to play).

TIA :cry:

Edit: I have reviewed the lease and do not see any provision for the owner to terminate the contract prior to the end of the term...
Depends on your state law, but basically in most states the lease essentially gives you full rights to the use of the property for the term of the lease (even in the event of a sale) except in the case of a foreclosure. You could tell them to pound sand or negotiate for what you feel is fair. I had to arbitrate a case like this and the owner ended up fronting the difference between $600 and $850 in rent for one year to entice the tenants to move. Moving expenses weren't an issue as they hadn't fully moved in yet. Note that I'm not a lawyer and am not offering legally advice. Consult an attorney or you state's real estate commission to determine your legal recourse.

 
Jeff, thanks for doing this. Do you sell homes on contract?  I have seen some of these deals done and they look sweet.  I have a modest 3BR/2BATH and I don't have much equity.  If I'm able to upgrade in a couple of years, I might like to sell this one on contract. 

The way I understand it is that the buyer often does not complete the sale.  You keep his down payment and monthly payments.  I also understand that you structure the deal so that if he does complete the sale after the allotted time, you still do fine.  Is my basic understanding correct?  What more should I know?
That the damage to your property from the Failed Land Contract/Tenant will be extensive.
Is this also true of renters? Are land contract buyers, who put down 2-5% WORSE?
Still interested in hearing if somehow the land contract buyers are worse than regular renters, if you get a chance Mike. If so, do you do all of your deals without tenants, or do they profits offset the damage done by your tenants?
It's more a funtion of the type of credit then the type of deal...
Code:
Good credit: 98% chance I get the home back in good condition.Marginal credit: 75% chance I get the home back in good condition.Bad credit: I know I'll offend some people, but legitimate excuses for bad credit are few and far between. It shows a lack of personal responsibility or a high risk taker...not someone I want to be renting or selling to.
 
Jeff, thanks for doing this. Do you sell homes on contract? I have seen some of these deals done and they look sweet. I have a modest 3BR/2BATH and I don't have much equity. If I'm able to upgrade in a couple of years, I might like to sell this one on contract.

The way I understand it is that the buyer often does not complete the sale. You keep his down payment and monthly payments. I also understand that you structure the deal so that if he does complete the sale after the allotted time, you still do fine. Is my basic understanding correct? What more should I know?
That the damage to your property from the Failed Land Contract/Tenant will be extensive.
Is this also true of renters? Are land contract buyers, who put down 2-5% WORSE?
Still interested in hearing if somehow the land contract buyers are worse than regular renters, if you get a chance Mike. If so, do you do all of your deals without tenants, or do they profits offset the damage done by your tenants?
It's more a funtion of the type of credit then the type of deal...
Good credit: 98% chance I get the home back in good condition.Marginal credit: 75% chance I get the home back in good condition.Bad credit: I know I'll offend some people, but legitimate excuses for bad credit are few and far between. It shows a lack of personal responsibility or a high risk taker...not someone I want to be renting or selling to.
This is why the "NROC" (non-refundable option consideration) was introduced for the lease option. Most L/O people would not be L/O buyers if their credit was decent. Still, bad things happen to good people.Getting 3-5% up front in CASH creates a nice buffer should you ever need to fix the place up when you get it back (70% of the time). Also I would insist to (1) check their credit report and (2) if they have bad credit, they have to agree to credit counseling to fix it. That benefits everyone - their credit improves, and then they are likely to buy your house in a year like you wanted for top dollar.

(Note: If you L/O a house, you write the future price to be top dollar. Can go with "future appraised value" or just pick a number and have it go up a percentage, such as $300K in a year, $315 the next, $330 in the 3rd and final L/O year).

 
I have a crappy problem.

I just rented a house with two roommates and it's perfect - 4 BR, 2.5BA, basement. Good price.

We've been in the place for just over two weeks and today I received a call from the owner's agent saying they want to sell it and need us to move out so they can renovate.

Now we did sign a 1-year lease so I assume we have some rights in this case, but it seems like a tough situation because they would probably treat us like crap if we don't cooperate. Anyway, they've offered to have their agent assist us in finding a comparable place and pay us one months rent and moving expenses.

Is that an adequate compensation package? Should we seek some other recourse?

We're extremely disappointed, as it took a long time for us to find a house that suited our needs so well (we're a metal band that needs space to play).

TIA :cry:

Edit: I have reviewed the lease and do not see any provision for the owner to terminate the contract prior to the end of the term...
Depends on your state law, but basically in most states the lease essentially gives you full rights to the use of the property for the term of the lease (even in the event of a sale) except in the case of a foreclosure. You could tell them to pound sand or negotiate for what you feel is fair. I had to arbitrate a case like this and the owner ended up fronting the difference between $600 and $850 in rent for one year to entice the tenants to move. Moving expenses weren't an issue as they hadn't fully moved in yet. Note that I'm not a lawyer and am not offering legally advice. Consult an attorney or you state's real estate commission to determine your legal recourse.
Tenants do have rights. Contact your local authority on housing and landlord/tenant law. I doubt the owner can force you to move if you have a lease, but he can work out a deal to get you to move (we call it "cash for keys").
 
Jeff and mike, thanks for the feedback. Unfortunately, the situation isn't quite as rosy as Jeff makes it out. I just did a quick search on comparable rentals in Palm Beach county and they seem to be between $1500 - $2000. Granted, I really need to do more homework to make sure that they are comparable, but every house and situation is different.

My monthy payments including tax and insurance come to around $1400 - this is on a 15 year fixed rate (I wish I did a 30 yr fixed and put the surplus into an interest bearing account, but that is a different conservation). so, with the 25% overage that Jeff recomends, that means I need to be able to rent it out for over $1800, which is doable.

that being said, is it worth the hassles and headache to keep a property and rent it out, assuming that rental income will just cover the payment of the property + approx 25%? Assume I could buy the new house w/o using equity from this one - would this be the better way to go?

Or, would it be better to sell this house and roll the equity into the new house, resulting in either lower payments or a bigger house?
That's a classic question - buy and hold, rent out or just "flip"?First, you can rent it out AND pull cash out. A 30-year interest only option exists - and the note wouldn't be too much a % of the equity, so it might be worth it.

So you might be able to squeeze a few $100 out a month for cash flow - but if you have that much equity, I'd cash out. "A quick nickel is worth more than a slow dime". Take $250K from a sale and move on. If you want a rental property then, go and buy one.

I don't like the idea of paying down a mortgage more than I have to - banks are comfortable now with 80-90% financing, so why not use the money elsewhere? Grow your $$ faster than paying down the mortgage and stay more liquid.

I offer private investors double-digit interest if they partner / invest with me, just as an example. There are non-conforming lenders (private lenders, hard money lenders) out there that make 15-20% on their $$ a year.

The point is, let your new found equity / windfall $$ work for you. Paying down a tax writeoff in the single digit interest rates doesn't make much sense.
Good info, thanks. Moleculo with money is like a mule with a harmonica - he don't know how he got it, and he sure as heck don't know what to do with it.
Your analogies frighten me....But glad I could help you more than giving arms to a goldfish :confused:

 
Jeff, thanks for doing this. Do you sell homes on contract?  I have seen some of these deals done and they look sweet.  I have a modest 3BR/2BATH and I don't have much equity.  If I'm able to upgrade in a couple of years, I might like to sell this one on contract. 

The way I understand it is that the buyer often does not complete the sale.  You keep his down payment and monthly payments.  I also understand that you structure the deal so that if he does complete the sale after the allotted time, you still do fine.  Is my basic understanding correct?  What more should I know?
That the damage to your property from the Failed Land Contract/Tenant will be extensive.
Is this also true of renters? Are land contract buyers, who put down 2-5% WORSE?
Still interested in hearing if somehow the land contract buyers are worse than regular renters, if you get a chance Mike. If so, do you do all of your deals without tenants, or do they profits offset the damage done by your tenants?
It's more a funtion of the type of credit then the type of deal...
Good credit: 98% chance I get the home back in good condition.Marginal credit: 75% chance I get the home back in good condition.Bad credit: I know I'll offend some people, but legitimate excuses for bad credit are few and far between. It shows a lack of personal responsibility or a high risk taker...not someone I want to be renting or selling to.
This is why the "NROC" (non-refundable option consideration) was introduced for the lease option. Most L/O people would not be L/O buyers if their credit was decent. Still, bad things happen to good people.Getting 3-5% up front in CASH creates a nice buffer should you ever need to fix the place up when you get it back (70% of the time). Also I would insist to (1) check their credit report and (2) if they have bad credit, they have to agree to credit counseling to fix it. That benefits everyone - their credit improves, and then they are likely to buy your house in a year like you wanted for top dollar.

(Note: If you L/O a house, you write the future price to be top dollar. Can go with "future appraised value" or just pick a number and have it go up a percentage, such as $300K in a year, $315 the next, $330 in the 3rd and final L/O year).
I was basically making the point that tenants aren't necessarily rougher on a property then the general population. You show me a person with flawless credit and I'll show you a person that returns a house in good condition or pays up to return it to that condition.Regarding options...just make sure to record them with the county, at least in this state. Otherwise you just have an unenforceable contract.

 
Jeff, thanks for doing this. Do you sell homes on contract? I have seen some of these deals done and they look sweet. I have a modest 3BR/2BATH and I don't have much equity. If I'm able to upgrade in a couple of years, I might like to sell this one on contract.

The way I understand it is that the buyer often does not complete the sale. You keep his down payment and monthly payments. I also understand that you structure the deal so that if he does complete the sale after the allotted time, you still do fine. Is my basic understanding correct? What more should I know?
That the damage to your property from the Failed Land Contract/Tenant will be extensive.
Is this also true of renters? Are land contract buyers, who put down 2-5% WORSE?
Still interested in hearing if somehow the land contract buyers are worse than regular renters, if you get a chance Mike. If so, do you do all of your deals without tenants, or do they profits offset the damage done by your tenants?
It's more a funtion of the type of credit then the type of deal...
Good credit: 98% chance I get the home back in good condition.Marginal credit: 75% chance I get the home back in good condition.Bad credit: I know I'll offend some people, but legitimate excuses for bad credit are few and far between. It shows a lack of personal responsibility or a high risk taker...not someone I want to be renting or selling to.
This is why the "NROC" (non-refundable option consideration) was introduced for the lease option. Most L/O people would not be L/O buyers if their credit was decent. Still, bad things happen to good people.Getting 3-5% up front in CASH creates a nice buffer should you ever need to fix the place up when you get it back (70% of the time). Also I would insist to (1) check their credit report and (2) if they have bad credit, they have to agree to credit counseling to fix it. That benefits everyone - their credit improves, and then they are likely to buy your house in a year like you wanted for top dollar.

(Note: If you L/O a house, you write the future price to be top dollar. Can go with "future appraised value" or just pick a number and have it go up a percentage, such as $300K in a year, $315 the next, $330 in the 3rd and final L/O year).
I was basically making the point that tenants aren't necessarily rougher on a property then the general population. You show me a person with flawless credit and I'll show you a person that returns a house in good condition or pays up to return it to that condition.Regarding options...just make sure to record them with the county, at least in this state. Otherwise you just have an unenforceable contract.
To expand on that - don't get cheap. Get an attorney who specializes in real estate to review your contracts, or suggest some, and pay him for it. It will save you big time in the long run.
 
I have a crappy problem.

I just rented a house with two roommates and it's perfect - 4 BR, 2.5BA, basement. Good price.

We've been in the place for just over two weeks and today I received a call from the owner's agent saying they want to sell it and need us to move out so they can renovate.

Now we did sign a 1-year lease so I assume we have some rights in this case, but it seems like a tough situation because they would probably treat us like crap if we don't cooperate. Anyway, they've offered to have their agent assist us in finding a comparable place and pay us one months rent and moving expenses.

Is that an adequate compensation package? Should we seek some other recourse?

We're extremely disappointed, as it took a long time for us to find a house that suited our needs so well (we're a metal band that needs space to play).

TIA :cry:

Edit: I have reviewed the lease and do not see any provision for the owner to terminate the contract prior to the end of the term...
Depends on your state law, but basically in most states the lease essentially gives you full rights to the use of the property for the term of the lease (even in the event of a sale) except in the case of a foreclosure. You could tell them to pound sand or negotiate for what you feel is fair. I had to arbitrate a case like this and the owner ended up fronting the difference between $600 and $850 in rent for one year to entice the tenants to move. Moving expenses weren't an issue as they hadn't fully moved in yet. Note that I'm not a lawyer and am not offering legally advice. Consult an attorney or you state's real estate commission to determine your legal recourse.
Tenants do have rights. Contact your local authority on housing and landlord/tenant law. I doubt the owner can force you to move if you have a lease, but he can work out a deal to get you to move (we call it "cash for keys").
Thanks guys.Honestly, I want to tell them to pound sand. But do you think that could open up a can of worms?

For instance, our lease says "Only one rent check will be accepted per property each month." Well we have an informal verbal agreement to give them three checks, one from each tenant. Do you think it's possible they'd get vindictive enough to call out little things like that to say we broke the lease?

I figure we have two options: play hard ball and stay, or move on our own terms to a new place with some generous amount of reimbursed rent and moving expenses.

We want option #1. But as you can see, I'm worried.

 
Jeff, thanks for doing this. Do you sell homes on contract?  I have seen some of these deals done and they look sweet.  I have a modest 3BR/2BATH and I don't have much equity.  If I'm able to upgrade in a couple of years, I might like to sell this one on contract. 

The way I understand it is that the buyer often does not complete the sale.  You keep his down payment and monthly payments.  I also understand that you structure the deal so that if he does complete the sale after the allotted time, you still do fine.  Is my basic understanding correct?  What more should I know?
That the damage to your property from the Failed Land Contract/Tenant will be extensive.
Is this also true of renters? Are land contract buyers, who put down 2-5% WORSE?
Still interested in hearing if somehow the land contract buyers are worse than regular renters, if you get a chance Mike. If so, do you do all of your deals without tenants, or do they profits offset the damage done by your tenants?
It's more a funtion of the type of credit then the type of deal...
Code:
Good credit: 98% chance I get the home back in good condition.Marginal credit: 75% chance I get the home back in good condition.Bad credit: I know I'll offend some people, but legitimate excuses for bad credit are few and far between. It shows a lack of personal responsibility or a high risk taker...not someone I want to be renting or selling to.
This is what I figured.
 
I have a crappy problem.

I just rented a house with two roommates and it's perfect - 4 BR, 2.5BA, basement.  Good price.

We've been in the place for just over two weeks and today I received a call from the owner's agent saying they want to sell it and need us to move out so they can renovate.

Now we did sign a 1-year lease so I assume we have some rights in this case, but it seems like a tough situation because they would probably treat us like crap if we don't cooperate.  Anyway, they've offered to have their agent assist us in finding a comparable place and pay us one months rent and moving expenses. 

Is that an adequate compensation package?  Should we seek some other recourse?

We're extremely disappointed, as it took a long time for us to find a house that suited our needs so well (we're a metal band that needs space to play).

TIA  :cry:

Edit: I have reviewed the lease and do not see any provision for the owner to terminate the contract prior to the end of the term...
Depends on your state law, but basically in most states the lease essentially gives you full rights to the use of the property for the term of the lease (even in the event of a sale) except in the case of a foreclosure. You could tell them to pound sand or negotiate for what you feel is fair. I had to arbitrate a case like this and the owner ended up fronting the difference between $600 and $850 in rent for one year to entice the tenants to move. Moving expenses weren't an issue as they hadn't fully moved in yet. Note that I'm not a lawyer and am not offering legally advice. Consult an attorney or you state's real estate commission to determine your legal recourse.
Tenants do have rights. Contact your local authority on housing and landlord/tenant law. I doubt the owner can force you to move if you have a lease, but he can work out a deal to get you to move (we call it "cash for keys").
Thanks guys.Honestly, I want to tell them to pound sand. But do you think that could open up a can of worms?

For instance, our lease says "Only one rent check will be accepted per property each month." Well we have an informal verbal agreement to give them three checks, one from each tenant. Do you think it's possible they'd get vindictive enough to call out little things like that to say we broke the lease?

I figure we have two options: play hard ball and stay, or move on our own terms to a new place with some generous amount of reimbursed rent and moving expenses.

We want option #1. But as you can see, I'm worried.
Yeah...it will likely open a can of worms, but you should be OK. Regarding the "three" checks, you're playing with fire. Your lease probably states that all terms are written in the lease and no other verbal promises are valid. Personally I think most judges would be upset if this came across their docket and would toss it out, but then again the judge may not like your "black-eyed joe shirt" on a particular day and rule against you. Why not have one person pay the rent and the other reimburse you? Personally I'd figured all my costs to move...moving expenses, lost time from work, etc and then add an some coin for your trouble and give them an offer. If they really want to kill the contract they may make it worth your while, it not then they'll get with the program.
 
Could you PM the name/number of a contractor that can redo a kitchen for a rental on Capitol Hill in DC? Preferably someone that you trust and that is reasonably priced. Thanks.

 
I have a crappy problem.

I just rented a house with two roommates and it's perfect - 4 BR, 2.5BA, basement. Good price.

We've been in the place for just over two weeks and today I received a call from the owner's agent saying they want to sell it and need us to move out so they can renovate.

Now we did sign a 1-year lease so I assume we have some rights in this case, but it seems like a tough situation because they would probably treat us like crap if we don't cooperate. Anyway, they've offered to have their agent assist us in finding a comparable place and pay us one months rent and moving expenses.

Is that an adequate compensation package? Should we seek some other recourse?

We're extremely disappointed, as it took a long time for us to find a house that suited our needs so well (we're a metal band that needs space to play).

TIA :cry:

Edit: I have reviewed the lease and do not see any provision for the owner to terminate the contract prior to the end of the term...
Depends on your state law, but basically in most states the lease essentially gives you full rights to the use of the property for the term of the lease (even in the event of a sale) except in the case of a foreclosure. You could tell them to pound sand or negotiate for what you feel is fair. I had to arbitrate a case like this and the owner ended up fronting the difference between $600 and $850 in rent for one year to entice the tenants to move. Moving expenses weren't an issue as they hadn't fully moved in yet. Note that I'm not a lawyer and am not offering legally advice. Consult an attorney or you state's real estate commission to determine your legal recourse.
Tenants do have rights. Contact your local authority on housing and landlord/tenant law. I doubt the owner can force you to move if you have a lease, but he can work out a deal to get you to move (we call it "cash for keys").
Thanks guys.Honestly, I want to tell them to pound sand. But do you think that could open up a can of worms?

For instance, our lease says "Only one rent check will be accepted per property each month." Well we have an informal verbal agreement to give them three checks, one from each tenant. Do you think it's possible they'd get vindictive enough to call out little things like that to say we broke the lease?

I figure we have two options: play hard ball and stay, or move on our own terms to a new place with some generous amount of reimbursed rent and moving expenses.

We want option #1. But as you can see, I'm worried.
Yeah...it will likely open a can of worms, but you should be OK. Regarding the "three" checks, you're playing with fire. Your lease probably states that all terms are written in the lease and no other verbal promises are valid. Personally I think most judges would be upset if this came across their docket and would toss it out, but then again the judge may not like your "black-eyed joe shirt" on a particular day and rule against you. Why not have one person pay the rent and the other reimburse you? Personally I'd figured all my costs to move...moving expenses, lost time from work, etc and then add an some coin for your trouble and give them an offer. If they really want to kill the contract they may make it worth your while, it not then they'll get with the program.
The owner doesn't want a law suit, he wants the property.Just like lawyers in a settlement, all you're arguing about is how much the settlement will be.

Figure out your costs and what a new place will cost, add up all the expenses of moving, and tack on a bit for troubles - not too much - be fair about it. Itemize the offer to him and say that while you don't want to move, we understand that this is your business and property, so we are adding up our costs of moving and would like this $$ to go.

Seems reasonable.

If he mentions court or law suit, then start complying with the letter of the lease and drag him to court. Look for a new place immediately. He doesn't want a judge to rule on this, AND have an unhappy tenant in his house who may not treat the place as well as you've been treating it so far.

Settle.

ETA: If you are heading to court, start looking for a new place IMMEDIATELY.

 
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Hey guys this thread is full of great info! Really cool to read.-------I have a question. Last April I bought a vacation home in Gatlinburg, TN for $269,000. The house is 5 years old now. At the time of the sale we were told that the home for the past two years brought in $42,000 and $57,000 in net income from rentals. The worst year the house had was its first year and that was $37,000. We get 60% and the manager gets 40%. With our mortgage payment of $1390 per month we would have been making BIG MONEY. In fact the worst year we would still have profited. Last year of course the house only brought in $20,000. We lost money on the year. We of course put the house up for sale in August and have had 3 offers to buy at $299,000, but the deals (all 3) didn't go through because of financing on the buyers end. We feel we should get out of the house while we can before interest rates go to high and we are stuck with a house that insn't generating a positive cash flow. Do you guys think this is the correct way of thinking?Also, do you guys think the agent could have received bad numbers from the rental agency to try and get the house sold? I have asked to see numbers from previous years and they refuse. I think we could have been led into a trap with this house. It doesn't make sense to have the house fall 17k short of its worst year. If they indeed did provide false numbers can we force the rental agency to buy the house?Finally, I am trying to figure out what kind of tax break this house will bring. We put 5% down on the house. I have been told we could get back as much as 5-8k from this house alone.I appreciate all the help and look forward to seeing your answers!

 
Last edited by a moderator:
I have a crappy problem.

I just rented a house with two roommates and it's perfect - 4 BR, 2.5BA, basement. Good price.

We've been in the place for just over two weeks and today I received a call from the owner's agent saying they want to sell it and need us to move out so they can renovate.

Now we did sign a 1-year lease so I assume we have some rights in this case, but it seems like a tough situation because they would probably treat us like crap if we don't cooperate. Anyway, they've offered to have their agent assist us in finding a comparable place and pay us one months rent and moving expenses.

Is that an adequate compensation package? Should we seek some other recourse?

We're extremely disappointed, as it took a long time for us to find a house that suited our needs so well (we're a metal band that needs space to play).

TIA :cry:

Edit: I have reviewed the lease and do not see any provision for the owner to terminate the contract prior to the end of the term...
Depends on your state law, but basically in most states the lease essentially gives you full rights to the use of the property for the term of the lease (even in the event of a sale) except in the case of a foreclosure. You could tell them to pound sand or negotiate for what you feel is fair. I had to arbitrate a case like this and the owner ended up fronting the difference between $600 and $850 in rent for one year to entice the tenants to move. Moving expenses weren't an issue as they hadn't fully moved in yet. Note that I'm not a lawyer and am not offering legally advice. Consult an attorney or you state's real estate commission to determine your legal recourse.
Tenants do have rights. Contact your local authority on housing and landlord/tenant law. I doubt the owner can force you to move if you have a lease, but he can work out a deal to get you to move (we call it "cash for keys").
Thanks guys.Honestly, I want to tell them to pound sand. But do you think that could open up a can of worms?

For instance, our lease says "Only one rent check will be accepted per property each month." Well we have an informal verbal agreement to give them three checks, one from each tenant. Do you think it's possible they'd get vindictive enough to call out little things like that to say we broke the lease?

I figure we have two options: play hard ball and stay, or move on our own terms to a new place with some generous amount of reimbursed rent and moving expenses.

We want option #1. But as you can see, I'm worried.
Yeah...it will likely open a can of worms, but you should be OK. Regarding the "three" checks, you're playing with fire. Your lease probably states that all terms are written in the lease and no other verbal promises are valid. Personally I think most judges would be upset if this came across their docket and would toss it out, but then again the judge may not like your "black-eyed joe shirt" on a particular day and rule against you. Why not have one person pay the rent and the other reimburse you? Personally I'd figured all my costs to move...moving expenses, lost time from work, etc and then add an some coin for your trouble and give them an offer. If they really want to kill the contract they may make it worth your while, it not then they'll get with the program.
The owner doesn't want a law suit, he wants the property.Just like lawyers in a settlement, all you're arguing about is how much the settlement will be.

Figure out your costs and what a new place will cost, add up all the expenses of moving, and tack on a bit for troubles - not too much - be fair about it. Itemize the offer to him and say that while you don't want to move, we understand that this is your business and property, so we are adding up our costs of moving and would like this $$ to go.

Seems reasonable.

If he mentions court or law suit, then start complying with the letter of the lease and drag him to court. Look for a new place immediately. He doesn't want a judge to rule on this, AND have an unhappy tenant in his house who may not treat the place as well as you've been treating it so far.

Settle.

ETA: If you are heading to court, start looking for a new place IMMEDIATELY.
Ok, thanks again guys.The three checks thing was just something we did out of convenience and they had no problem with. We certainly could have one person pay, but at this point we may not being paying any more rent to these people.

Sounds like my next step is to look at other houses and come up with an itemized list of what we need to make the move possible.

Here's another idea. One of the guys living here, we'll call him Q, has expressed an interest in buying the place. It's a 4br colonial from the 60s, like most of the other houses in the area, and he has heard through neighborhood chatter that the going rate is around 500k. However, we think our house is likely one of the worst on the block since it has no carport, an unfinished basement, a poorly manicured lawn, a furnace that's about to croak, and several cosmetic blemishes. In other words, we're thinking it'll be in the 400s.

So, Q makes about 70k, has no depedents, and has very very little debt. What are the chances he could qualify to buy the place with me and the other roommate agreeing to pay about 1k per month as lessees?

And furthermore, do you think the owner would be receptive to such an idea or are they more likely to want to make their renovations and sell higher?

 
Hey guys this thread is full of great info! Really cool to read.

-------

I have a question. Last April I bought a vacation home in Gatlinburg, TN for $269,000. The house is 5 years old now. At the time of the sale we were told that the home for the past two years brought in $42,000 and $57,000 in net income from rentals. The worst year the house had was its first year and that was $37,000. We get 60% and the manager gets 40%. With our mortgage payment of $1390 per month we would have been making BIG MONEY. In fact the worst year we would still have profited. Last year of course the house only brought in $20,000. We lost money on the year. We of course put the house up for sale in August and have had 3 offers to buy at $299,000, but the deals (all 3) didn't go through because of financing on the buyers end.

We feel we should get out of the house while we can before interest rates go to high and we are stuck with a house that insn't generating a positive cash flow. Do you guys think this is the correct way of thinking?

Also, do you guys think the agent could have received bad numbers from the rental agency to try and get the house sold? I have asked to see numbers from previous years and they refuse. I think we could have been led into a trap with this house. It doesn't make sense to have the house fall 17k short of its worst year. If they indeed did provide false numbers can we force the rental agency to buy the house?

Finally, I am trying to figure out what kind of tax break this house will bring. We put 5% down on the house. I have been told we could get back as much as 5-8k from this house alone.

I appreciate all the help and look forward to seeing your answers!
Not sure if this helps, but I have a couple of contacts into vacation rentals and the word was that business was off 50% last year in the Lake Norman, NC area. No one could explain why and I believe I was told that before gas prices went up.I don't think you will get to see the numbers as it's a privacy issue for the previous owner. Can anyone collaborate what you were told?

The house will bring you a huge tax break...travel, meals, interest, taxes, insurance, depreciation, closing costs, management fees.

What were your occupancy rates? Have you considered cutting your weekly asking price to increase the occupancy? Overall, that's a strange market. I tried to find a place last year in March near there for two nights on a week night. No one wanted to negotiate or move off their 3 night min. Seemed to me like the owner's and property managers did want the hassle. I wonder if opinions have changed if the past year was indeed rough throughout the area.

 
Jeff, thanks for doing this. Do you sell homes on contract?  I have seen some of these deals done and they look sweet.  I have a modest 3BR/2BATH and I don't have much equity.  If I'm able to upgrade in a couple of years, I might like to sell this one on contract. 

The way I understand it is that the buyer often does not complete the sale.  You keep his down payment and monthly payments.  I also understand that you structure the deal so that if he does complete the sale after the allotted time, you still do fine.  Is my basic understanding correct?  What more should I know?
That the damage to your property from the Failed Land Contract/Tenant will be extensive.
Is this also true of renters? Are land contract buyers, who put down 2-5% WORSE?
Still interested in hearing if somehow the land contract buyers are worse than regular renters, if you get a chance Mike. If so, do you do all of your deals without tenants, or do they profits offset the damage done by your tenants?
It's more a funtion of the type of credit then the type of deal...
Good credit: 98% chance I get the home back in good condition.Marginal credit: 75% chance I get the home back in good condition.Bad credit: I know I'll offend some people, but legitimate excuses for bad credit are few and far between. It shows a lack of personal responsibility or a high risk taker...not someone I want to be renting or selling to.
Simplistically, If someone has $5-10K, even $2K and can't get a conventional loan, their credit is abysmal. Credit is an indicator of personal responsibility. They will fail in the Land Contract. Certainly when the shady owner strips them of every bit of nest egg that might be used to weather the storm and protect them.Then remember that a Land Contract makes the buyer responsible for the upkeep. 9 times out of 10 the whole reason that the seller is going Land Contract instead of a conventional loan that would pay him off IMMEDIATELY instead of over time is that the house can't get top dollar or won't sell. The reason is always that the house is in poor repair, the roof is bad, the furnace is about to go, the walls are cracked and falling down, something. The house is RIDICULOUSLY overpriced, something is terribly wrong somewhere with it. The owner would cash out right now if the house would sell for what he wants for it. There is absolutely no way he would go Land Contract.

Now the buyer has bad credit and can't get a loan to keep him afloat, he has no reserves as the owner just drained him, and then the roof starts leaking and it is the buyers responsibility to repair.

I do rentals right in the heart of Downtown, and look for young professionals working in the High Rise buildings or College students. I will absolutely sit on a property as needed waiting for a good tenant. An empty unit is better than a bad tenant anytime. I think 5 months sitting is the longest for a rental, but I haven't exactly checked.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Hey guys this thread is full of great info!  Really cool to read.

-------

I have a question.  Last April I bought a vacation home in Gatlinburg, TN for $269,000.  The house is 5 years old now.  At the time of the sale we were told that the home for the past two years brought in $42,000 and $57,000 in net income from rentals.  The worst year the house had was its first year and that was $37,000.  We get 60% and the manager gets 40%.  With our mortgage payment of $1390 per month we would have been making BIG MONEY.  In fact the worst year we would still have profited.  Last year of course the house only brought in $20,000.  We lost money on the year.  We of course put the house up for sale in August and have had 3 offers to buy at $299,000, but the deals (all 3) didn't go through because of financing on the buyers end. 

We feel we should get out of the house while we can before interest rates go to high and we are stuck with a house that insn't generating a positive cash flow.  Do you guys think this is the correct way of thinking?

Also, do you guys think the agent could have received bad numbers from the rental agency to try and get the house sold?  I have asked to see numbers from previous years and they refuse.  I think we could have been led into a trap with this house.  It doesn't make sense to have the house fall 17k short of its worst year.  If they indeed did provide false numbers can we force the rental agency to buy the house?

Finally, I am trying to figure out what kind of tax break this house will bring.  We put 5% down on the house.  I have been told we could get back as much as 5-8k from this house alone.

I appreciate all the help and look forward to seeing your answers!
Not sure if this helps, but I have a couple of contacts into vacation rentals and the word was that business was off 50% last year in the Lake Norman, NC area. No one could explain why and I believe I was told that before gas prices went up.I don't think you will get to see the numbers as it's a privacy issue for the previous owner. Can anyone collaborate what you were told?

The house will bring you a huge tax break...travel, meals, interest, taxes, insurance, depreciation, closing costs, management fees.

What were your occupancy rates? Have you considered cutting your weekly asking price to increase the occupancy? Overall, that's a strange market. I tried to find a place last year in March near there for two nights on a week night. No one wanted to negotiate or move off their 3 night min. Seemed to me like the owner's and property managers did want the hassle. I wonder if opinions have changed if the past year was indeed rough throughout the area.
I really appreciate the reply. We have actually cut the daily rate during off-peak months to try to acquire more renters. As far as the property managers not wanting the hassel that could be the case, but more than likely not. I know our PM will only go as low as we want it. If we say 150 per night she will not go lower. We have tried other techniques such as giving one night free for a three night stay.As for the numbers we were faxed a sheet with the numbers at the Real Estate office with the PM's logo on it and still have it in our possesion. We also have the MLS listing printed out with the numbers from the previous 3 years. So, the RE agent we bought from could confirm these numbers.

One other thing when you say "Huge" what number range are we talking about? Huge can be pocket change to some and a life saver for others.

Again thanks for the help!

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Simplistically, If someone has $5-10K, even $2K and can't get a conventional loan, their credit is abysmal. Credit is an indicator of personal responsibility. They will fail in the Land Contract. Certainly when the shady owner strips them of every bit of nest egg that might be used to weather the storm and protect them.

I do rentals right in the heart of Downtown, and look for young professionals working in the High Rise buildings or College students. I will absolutely sit on a property as needed waiting for a good tenant. An empty unit is better than a bad tenant anytime. I think 5 months sitting is the longest for a rental, but I haven't exactly checked.
I'm glad to know that I'm not on an island here.I'd be interested in your thoughts on the following Mike...We've moved away from traditional credit score numbers and have out own rating system based on the account standings. Without getting into specifics, it's eliminated the debt and inquiry dings. Basically I don't care if you're in debt to deep if you've demonstrated that you''ve always found a way to pay the bills. Seems to work for me and has expanded the pool of qualified and good tenants I'm placing. Our average days on market last year was about 60, but that came down and I'm currently seeing about 30. Maybe the interest rate hikes are starting to help.

 
Hey guys this thread is full of great info!  Really cool to read.

-------

I have a question.  Last April I bought a vacation home in Gatlinburg, TN for $269,000.  The house is 5 years old now.  At the time of the sale we were told that the home for the past two years brought in $42,000 and $57,000 in net income from rentals.  The worst year the house had was its first year and that was $37,000.  We get 60% and the manager gets 40%.  With our mortgage payment of $1390 per month we would have been making BIG MONEY.  In fact the worst year we would still have profited.  Last year of course the house only brought in $20,000.  We lost money on the year.  We of course put the house up for sale in August and have had 3 offers to buy at $299,000, but the deals (all 3) didn't go through because of financing on the buyers end. 

We feel we should get out of the house while we can before interest rates go to high and we are stuck with a house that insn't generating a positive cash flow.  Do you guys think this is the correct way of thinking?

Also, do you guys think the agent could have received bad numbers from the rental agency to try and get the house sold?  I have asked to see numbers from previous years and they refuse.  I think we could have been led into a trap with this house.  It doesn't make sense to have the house fall 17k short of its worst year.  If they indeed did provide false numbers can we force the rental agency to buy the house?

Finally, I am trying to figure out what kind of tax break this house will bring.  We put 5% down on the house.  I have been told we could get back as much as 5-8k from this house alone.

I appreciate all the help and look forward to seeing your answers!
Not sure if this helps, but I have a couple of contacts into vacation rentals and the word was that business was off 50% last year in the Lake Norman, NC area. No one could explain why and I believe I was told that before gas prices went up.I don't think you will get to see the numbers as it's a privacy issue for the previous owner. Can anyone collaborate what you were told?

The house will bring you a huge tax break...travel, meals, interest, taxes, insurance, depreciation, closing costs, management fees.

What were your occupancy rates? Have you considered cutting your weekly asking price to increase the occupancy? Overall, that's a strange market. I tried to find a place last year in March near there for two nights on a week night. No one wanted to negotiate or move off their 3 night min. Seemed to me like the owner's and property managers did want the hassle. I wonder if opinions have changed if the past year was indeed rough throughout the area.
I really appreciate the reply. We have actually cut the daily rate during off-peak months to try to acquire more renters. As far as the property managers not wanting the hassel that could be the case, but more than likely not. I know our PM will only go as low as we want it. If we say 150 per night she will not go lower. We have tried other techniques such as giving one night free for a three night stay.As for the numbers we were faxed a sheet with the numbers at the Real Estate office with the PM's logo on it and still have it in our possesion. We also have the MLS listing printed out with the numbers from the previous 3 years. So, the RE agent we bought from could confirm these numbers.
Hmmmm..... Just throwing this out there but, don't you save money when you find your own renters?Maybe we should have a rental forum - I'd personally rent a ski house in NY or VT... My sister has a ski rental in Utah..... I'd also rent Beach places in and around NY if I could find a good deal.

We had one in NC Sugar Mtn but, just sold it and also were negative on the income but it did appreciate from 90,000 to 130,000 in a short time.

 
Hey guys this thread is full of great info!  Really cool to read.

-------

I have a question.  Last April I bought a vacation home in Gatlinburg, TN for $269,000.  The house is 5 years old now.  At the time of the sale we were told that the home for the past two years brought in $42,000 and $57,000 in net income from rentals.  The worst year the house had was its first year and that was $37,000.  We get 60% and the manager gets 40%.  With our mortgage payment of $1390 per month we would have been making BIG MONEY.  In fact the worst year we would still have profited.  Last year of course the house only brought in $20,000.  We lost money on the year.  We of course put the house up for sale in August and have had 3 offers to buy at $299,000, but the deals (all 3) didn't go through because of financing on the buyers end. 

We feel we should get out of the house while we can before interest rates go to high and we are stuck with a house that insn't generating a positive cash flow.  Do you guys think this is the correct way of thinking?

Also, do you guys think the agent could have received bad numbers from the rental agency to try and get the house sold?  I have asked to see numbers from previous years and they refuse.  I think we could have been led into a trap with this house.  It doesn't make sense to have the house fall 17k short of its worst year.  If they indeed did provide false numbers can we force the rental agency to buy the house?

Finally, I am trying to figure out what kind of tax break this house will bring.  We put 5% down on the house.  I have been told we could get back as much as 5-8k from this house alone.

I appreciate all the help and look forward to seeing your answers!
Not sure if this helps, but I have a couple of contacts into vacation rentals and the word was that business was off 50% last year in the Lake Norman, NC area. No one could explain why and I believe I was told that before gas prices went up.I don't think you will get to see the numbers as it's a privacy issue for the previous owner. Can anyone collaborate what you were told?

The house will bring you a huge tax break...travel, meals, interest, taxes, insurance, depreciation, closing costs, management fees.

What were your occupancy rates? Have you considered cutting your weekly asking price to increase the occupancy? Overall, that's a strange market. I tried to find a place last year in March near there for two nights on a week night. No one wanted to negotiate or move off their 3 night min. Seemed to me like the owner's and property managers did want the hassle. I wonder if opinions have changed if the past year was indeed rough throughout the area.
I really appreciate the reply. We have actually cut the daily rate during off-peak months to try to acquire more renters. As far as the property managers not wanting the hassel that could be the case, but more than likely not. I know our PM will only go as low as we want it. If we say 150 per night she will not go lower. We have tried other techniques such as giving one night free for a three night stay.As for the numbers we were faxed a sheet with the numbers at the Real Estate office with the PM's logo on it and still have it in our possesion. We also have the MLS listing printed out with the numbers from the previous 3 years. So, the RE agent we bought from could confirm these numbers.
Hmmmm..... Just throwing this out there but, don't you save money when you find your own renters?Maybe we should have a rental forum - I'd personally rent a ski house in NY or VT... My sister has a ski rental in Utah..... I'd also rent Beach places in and around NY if I could find a good deal.

We had one in NC Sugar Mtn but, just sold it and also were negative on the income but it did appreciate from 90,000 to 130,000 in a short time.
Good idea we could rent out to fellow FBG's... I like that idea.
 
I have a crappy problem.

I just rented a house with two roommates and it's perfect - 4 BR, 2.5BA, basement.  Good price.

We've been in the place for just over two weeks and today I received a call from the owner's agent saying they want to sell it and need us to move out so they can renovate.

Now we did sign a 1-year lease so I assume we have some rights in this case, but it seems like a tough situation because they would probably treat us like crap if we don't cooperate.  Anyway, they've offered to have their agent assist us in finding a comparable place and pay us one months rent and moving expenses. 

Is that an adequate compensation package?  Should we seek some other recourse?

We're extremely disappointed, as it took a long time for us to find a house that suited our needs so well (we're a metal band that needs space to play).

TIA  :cry:

Edit: I have reviewed the lease and do not see any provision for the owner to terminate the contract prior to the end of the term...
Depends on your state law, but basically in most states the lease essentially gives you full rights to the use of the property for the term of the lease (even in the event of a sale) except in the case of a foreclosure. You could tell them to pound sand or negotiate for what you feel is fair. I had to arbitrate a case like this and the owner ended up fronting the difference between $600 and $850 in rent for one year to entice the tenants to move. Moving expenses weren't an issue as they hadn't fully moved in yet. Note that I'm not a lawyer and am not offering legally advice. Consult an attorney or you state's real estate commission to determine your legal recourse.
Tenants do have rights. Contact your local authority on housing and landlord/tenant law. I doubt the owner can force you to move if you have a lease, but he can work out a deal to get you to move (we call it "cash for keys").
Thanks guys.Honestly, I want to tell them to pound sand. But do you think that could open up a can of worms?

For instance, our lease says "Only one rent check will be accepted per property each month." Well we have an informal verbal agreement to give them three checks, one from each tenant. Do you think it's possible they'd get vindictive enough to call out little things like that to say we broke the lease?

I figure we have two options: play hard ball and stay, or move on our own terms to a new place with some generous amount of reimbursed rent and moving expenses.

We want option #1. But as you can see, I'm worried.
LAST Thing is the world I would be interested in is helping someone get over on a LL. But this is FBGs, and that is not the case here.State Law is different, but I am absolutely positive that contract law must be honored in every state. A lease does a number of things. For the LL it assures against vacancy without breech, along with the ability to standardize rules of a conduct. For the Tenant, it is protection in cases just like this. They can't throw away your lease, kick you out without cause, or change any financial amounts.

Your lease is in place, and protects you from moving. You have every single card, and the owner has none at this point. The owner is hoping you don't understand that, and will take an offer of cash for keys. They give you some amount of compensation, you return the unit in move in condition by a certain date.

Should you go this route, only you know what the compensation needs to be.

You can ABSOLUTELY stay, just understand that they MAY do a number of things to make your stay painful. Depending on your State Law and what your contract states, they can require you to keep the place spotless at all times as they come and go as they please showing the house to potential investors. (If so, try and set up a weekly "Open House" time with them. I doubt I would bite, but who knows?)

They most likely are basically required to give you a 24 hour notice to enter, but your contract could say differently. Mine does, and my verbage has held up to give me access within reason.

If it becomes a war, expect "Notices to Cure" will start arriving at all times. Notice on the front door to Mow the grass within 3 days, Clean up the house or they will hire a professional cleaning team at YOUR expense, Professionally clean the carpet within X or they will hire at your expense, Your car tire sat off the drive way, and they bill you an outrageous amount for yard repair, any litany of notices that you will need to address or be in violation of of your lease where they can start the eviction process. Expect that they will scrutinize your every action.

SHOULD you decide to uphold your completely legal position, most of this is going to come down to your lease. Mine is a 9 page monster. If yours is one from Office Max, you are most likely in a great spot to fight if that is the path you decide to walk.

If so, I would encourage you to scan your lease and post it in this thread. Send it to Anderson1170@msn.com if you don't wish to post it for some reason. Unless you are in Indiana, I won't know your exact state laws, but if something is glaring, they can certainly be looked up easily. Most things are constant in all states dealing with contract law.

This is totally your call, but if you do opt for Cash for Keys, you hold all the cards. Make sure the compensation is something that you are happy with.

Almost forgot, should they sell it, you need to know that the lease follows the owner, not the property, and the new owner will be bound to the terms of the lease.

 
I have a crappy problem.

I just rented a house with two roommates and it's perfect - 4 BR, 2.5BA, basement.  Good price.

We've been in the place for just over two weeks and today I received a call from the owner's agent saying they want to sell it and need us to move out so they can renovate.

Now we did sign a 1-year lease so I assume we have some rights in this case, but it seems like a tough situation because they would probably treat us like crap if we don't cooperate.  Anyway, they've offered to have their agent assist us in finding a comparable place and pay us one months rent and moving expenses. 

Is that an adequate compensation package?  Should we seek some other recourse?

We're extremely disappointed, as it took a long time for us to find a house that suited our needs so well (we're a metal band that needs space to play).

TIA  :cry:

Edit: I have reviewed the lease and do not see any provision for the owner to terminate the contract prior to the end of the term...
Depends on your state law, but basically in most states the lease essentially gives you full rights to the use of the property for the term of the lease (even in the event of a sale) except in the case of a foreclosure. You could tell them to pound sand or negotiate for what you feel is fair. I had to arbitrate a case like this and the owner ended up fronting the difference between $600 and $850 in rent for one year to entice the tenants to move. Moving expenses weren't an issue as they hadn't fully moved in yet. Note that I'm not a lawyer and am not offering legally advice. Consult an attorney or you state's real estate commission to determine your legal recourse.
Tenants do have rights. Contact your local authority on housing and landlord/tenant law. I doubt the owner can force you to move if you have a lease, but he can work out a deal to get you to move (we call it "cash for keys").
Thanks guys.Honestly, I want to tell them to pound sand. But do you think that could open up a can of worms?

For instance, our lease says "Only one rent check will be accepted per property each month." Well we have an informal verbal agreement to give them three checks, one from each tenant. Do you think it's possible they'd get vindictive enough to call out little things like that to say we broke the lease?

I figure we have two options: play hard ball and stay, or move on our own terms to a new place with some generous amount of reimbursed rent and moving expenses.

We want option #1. But as you can see, I'm worried.
Yeah...it will likely open a can of worms, but you should be OK. Regarding the "three" checks, you're playing with fire. Your lease probably states that all terms are written in the lease and no other verbal promises are valid. Personally I think most judges would be upset if this came across their docket and would toss it out, but then again the judge may not like your "black-eyed joe shirt" on a particular day and rule against you. Why not have one person pay the rent and the other reimburse you? Personally I'd figured all my costs to move...moving expenses, lost time from work, etc and then add an some coin for your trouble and give them an offer. If they really want to kill the contract they may make it worth your while, it not then they'll get with the program.
:goodposting: Almost exactly what I was going to write. If you have a competent LL they are going to have a "the Lease is the contract" and try and blow off any verbal conversations of actions on their part up to now.

If you have already been paying with 3 checks, and they have been accepting them and Cashing/depositing them, Any** Judge in the land is going to laugh them out of court.

**Disclaimer - it's always a toss up when in front of the judge, but you are on incredibly solid footing here.

Just have one guy write the overall check, and collect from the other guys.

 
Hey guys this thread is full of great info!  Really cool to read.

-------

I have a question.  Last April I bought a vacation home in Gatlinburg, TN for $269,000.  The house is 5 years old now.  At the time of the sale we were told that the home for the past two years brought in $42,000 and $57,000 in net income from rentals.  The worst year the house had was its first year and that was $37,000.  We get 60% and the manager gets 40%.  With our mortgage payment of $1390 per month we would have been making BIG MONEY.  In fact the worst year we would still have profited.  Last year of course the house only brought in $20,000.  We lost money on the year.  We of course put the house up for sale in August and have had 3 offers to buy at $299,000, but the deals (all 3) didn't go through because of financing on the buyers end. 

We feel we should get out of the house while we can before interest rates go to high and we are stuck with a house that insn't generating a positive cash flow.  Do you guys think this is the correct way of thinking?

Also, do you guys think the agent could have received bad numbers from the rental agency to try and get the house sold?  I have asked to see numbers from previous years and they refuse.  I think we could have been led into a trap with this house.  It doesn't make sense to have the house fall 17k short of its worst year.  If they indeed did provide false numbers can we force the rental agency to buy the house?

Finally, I am trying to figure out what kind of tax break this house will bring.  We put 5% down on the house.  I have been told we could get back as much as 5-8k from this house alone.

I appreciate all the help and look forward to seeing your answers!
Not sure if this helps, but I have a couple of contacts into vacation rentals and the word was that business was off 50% last year in the Lake Norman, NC area. No one could explain why and I believe I was told that before gas prices went up.I don't think you will get to see the numbers as it's a privacy issue for the previous owner. Can anyone collaborate what you were told?

The house will bring you a huge tax break...travel, meals, interest, taxes, insurance, depreciation, closing costs, management fees.

What were your occupancy rates? Have you considered cutting your weekly asking price to increase the occupancy? Overall, that's a strange market. I tried to find a place last year in March near there for two nights on a week night. No one wanted to negotiate or move off their 3 night min. Seemed to me like the owner's and property managers did want the hassle. I wonder if opinions have changed if the past year was indeed rough throughout the area.
I really appreciate the reply. We have actually cut the daily rate during off-peak months to try to acquire more renters. As far as the property managers not wanting the hassel that could be the case, but more than likely not. I know our PM will only go as low as we want it. If we say 150 per night she will not go lower. We have tried other techniques such as giving one night free for a three night stay.As for the numbers we were faxed a sheet with the numbers at the Real Estate office with the PM's logo on it and still have it in our possesion. We also have the MLS listing printed out with the numbers from the previous 3 years. So, the RE agent we bought from could confirm these numbers.

One other thing when you say "Huge" what number range are we talking about? Huge can be pocket change to some and a life saver for others.

Again thanks for the help!
Huge - I'll assume $1300 of your payment is interest - 15600

270000 / 27 years for depreciation - 10000

Closing costs - 5000

2-3 trips there to look, purchase, and check on - 3000?

Management fee - 8000

Repairs - ?

Furnishings - ?

You should be talking about a $20,000 write off at least. (disclaimer: I'm not a tx attorney or account, seek your own tax advice).

Back to the other topic. So you didn't get rich, you're only bleeding a little bit If you assume this is now the worse case scenario, are you comfortable with that baseline and working on improving things from here? Is this something you really want to do if the return was only say 10%-15% a year, because that's ultimately where you are heading? Personally I'd set an occupancy goal and slash rates until I got there. When I want to go to the mountians, the first thing I do is ask other people who have been where they stay. Several of them return to the same place year and year. I'd build that client base up in a soft market and let word of mouth and referrels build up the occupancy. Once that is accomplished, you can start raising prices.

Sounds like you may have a case if there's fruad involved. But how are you going to prove it short of getting the actual records? The Tennessee real estate commission may be an alternative to check out before going the legal route. Not sure where you're from, but gas prices killed travel in the SE for quite awhile and business may have been soft before that. 9-11 also helped business in years 2 and 3 at these local getaway places which would correspond to the numbers you got.

 
Hey guys this thread is full of great info!  Really cool to read.

-------

I have a question.  Last April I bought a vacation home in Gatlinburg, TN for $269,000.  The house is 5 years old now.  At the time of the sale we were told that the home for the past two years brought in $42,000 and $57,000 in net income from rentals.  The worst year the house had was its first year and that was $37,000.  We get 60% and the manager gets 40%.  With our mortgage payment of $1390 per month we would have been making BIG MONEY.  In fact the worst year we would still have profited.  Last year of course the house only brought in $20,000.  We lost money on the year.  We of course put the house up for sale in August and have had 3 offers to buy at $299,000, but the deals (all 3) didn't go through because of financing on the buyers end. 

We feel we should get out of the house while we can before interest rates go to high and we are stuck with a house that insn't generating a positive cash flow.  Do you guys think this is the correct way of thinking?

Also, do you guys think the agent could have received bad numbers from the rental agency to try and get the house sold?  I have asked to see numbers from previous years and they refuse.  I think we could have been led into a trap with this house.  It doesn't make sense to have the house fall 17k short of its worst year.  If they indeed did provide false numbers can we force the rental agency to buy the house?

Finally, I am trying to figure out what kind of tax break this house will bring.  We put 5% down on the house.  I have been told we could get back as much as 5-8k from this house alone.

I appreciate all the help and look forward to seeing your answers!
A few problems. The first you already know, you didn't get all financials on paper before you bought, you trusted blindly.If you are worried about the interest, you have bought it on a variable, which isn't the end of the world, only you really didn't have a clue how the property would perform.

I would want to talk with Bass, PM him or hope he sees this, but 60/40% seems way out of whack. Way out of whack. Bass would know, I do not.

Depending on what you have had to do, you should get tremendous tax breaks. Talk to your Accountant. Depending on how it is viewed, the tax breaks from the property might be labeled as passive (You are not a RE professional I assume) and only count against your passive income.

You can write off all repairs, interest, and the big one, all the professional "fees" (the 40% the manager takes), Accountant fees, lawyer fees, ect. Trips to the property up to 14 days I think, Advertizing, long distance calls, gas, air fare, car rentals, a massive amount - 5 figures easy.

**I am not an account, please check with yours.

 
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I have a crappy problem.

I just rented a house with two roommates and it's perfect - 4 BR, 2.5BA, basement.  Good price.

We've been in the place for just over two weeks and today I received a call from the owner's agent saying they want to sell it and need us to move out so they can renovate.

Now we did sign a 1-year lease so I assume we have some rights in this case, but it seems like a tough situation because they would probably treat us like crap if we don't cooperate.  Anyway, they've offered to have their agent assist us in finding a comparable place and pay us one months rent and moving expenses. 

Is that an adequate compensation package?  Should we seek some other recourse?

We're extremely disappointed, as it took a long time for us to find a house that suited our needs so well (we're a metal band that needs space to play).

TIA  :cry:

Edit: I have reviewed the lease and do not see any provision for the owner to terminate the contract prior to the end of the term...
Depends on your state law, but basically in most states the lease essentially gives you full rights to the use of the property for the term of the lease (even in the event of a sale) except in the case of a foreclosure. You could tell them to pound sand or negotiate for what you feel is fair. I had to arbitrate a case like this and the owner ended up fronting the difference between $600 and $850 in rent for one year to entice the tenants to move. Moving expenses weren't an issue as they hadn't fully moved in yet. Note that I'm not a lawyer and am not offering legally advice. Consult an attorney or you state's real estate commission to determine your legal recourse.
Tenants do have rights. Contact your local authority on housing and landlord/tenant law. I doubt the owner can force you to move if you have a lease, but he can work out a deal to get you to move (we call it "cash for keys").
Thanks guys.Honestly, I want to tell them to pound sand. But do you think that could open up a can of worms?

For instance, our lease says "Only one rent check will be accepted per property each month." Well we have an informal verbal agreement to give them three checks, one from each tenant. Do you think it's possible they'd get vindictive enough to call out little things like that to say we broke the lease?

I figure we have two options: play hard ball and stay, or move on our own terms to a new place with some generous amount of reimbursed rent and moving expenses.

We want option #1. But as you can see, I'm worried.
LAST Thing is the world I would be interested in is helping someone get over on a LL. But this is FBGs, and that is not the case here.State Law is different, but I am absolutely positive that contract law must be honored in every state. A lease does a number of things. For the LL it assures against vacancy without breech, along with the ability to standardize rules of a conduct. For the Tenant, it is protection in cases just like this. They can't throw away your lease, kick you out without cause, or change any financial amounts.

Your lease is in place, and protects you from moving. You have every single card, and the owner has none at this point. The owner is hoping you don't understand that, and will take an offer of cash for keys. They give you some amount of compensation, you return the unit in move in condition by a certain date.

Should you go this route, only you know what the compensation needs to be.

You can ABSOLUTELY stay, just understand that they MAY do a number of things to make your stay painful. Depending on your State Law and what your contract states, they can require you to keep the place spotless at all times as they come and go as they please showing the house to potential investors. (If so, try and set up a weekly "Open House" time with them. I doubt I would bite, but who knows?)

They most likely are basically required to give you a 24 hour notice to enter, but your contract could say differently. Mine does, and my verbage has held up to give me access within reason.

If it becomes a war, expect "Notices to Cure" will start arriving at all times. Notice on the front door to Mow the grass within 3 days, Clean up the house or they will hire a professional cleaning team at YOUR expense, Professionally clean the carpet within X or they will hire at your expense, Your car tire sat off the drive way, and they bill you an outrageous amount for yard repair, any litany of notices that you will need to address or be in violation of of your lease where they can start the eviction process. Expect that they will scrutinize your every action.

SHOULD you decide to uphold your completely legal position, most of this is going to come down to your lease. Mine is a 9 page monster. If yours is one from Office Max, you are most likely in a great spot to fight if that is the path you decide to walk.

If so, I would encourage you to scan your lease and post it in this thread. Send it to Anderson1170@msn.com if you don't wish to post it for some reason. Unless you are in Indiana, I won't know your exact state laws, but if something is glaring, they can certainly be looked up easily. Most things are constant in all states dealing with contract law.

This is totally your call, but if you do opt for Cash for Keys, you hold all the cards. Make sure the compensation is something that you are happy with.

Almost forgot, should they sell it, you need to know that the lease follows the owner, not the property, and the new owner will be bound to the terms of the lease.
I need to add this disclaimer:Note that I'm not a lawyer and am not offering legally advice. Consult an attorney or you state's real estate commission to determine your legal recourse.

 
You can ABSOLUTELY stay, just understand that they MAY do a number of things to make your stay painful. Depending on your State Law and what your contract states, they can require you to keep the place spotless at all times as they come and go as they please showing the house to potential investors. (If so, try and set up a weekly "Open House" time with them. I doubt I would bite, but who knows?)

They most likely are basically required to give you a 24 hour notice to enter, but your contract could say differently. Mine does, and my verbage has held up to give me access within reason.

If it becomes a war, expect "Notices to Cure" will start arriving at all times. Notice on the front door to Mow the grass within 3 days, Clean up the house or they will hire a professional cleaning team at YOUR expense, Professionally clean the carpet within X or they will hire at your expense, Your car tire sat off the drive way, and they bill you an outrageous amount for yard repair, any litany of notices that you will need to address or be in violation of of your lease where they can start the eviction process. Expect that they will scrutinize your every action.

SHOULD you decide to uphold your completely legal position, most of this is going to come down to your lease. Mine is a 9 page monster. If yours is one from Office Max, you are most likely in a great spot to fight if that is the path you decide to walk.

If so, I would encourage you to scan your lease and post it in this thread. Send it to Anderson1170@msn.com if you don't wish to post it for some reason. Unless you are in Indiana, I won't know your exact state laws, but if something is glaring, they can certainly be looked up easily. Most things are constant in all states dealing with contract law.
Lease sent.Everything you said are the things I'm worried about. I don't know these people very well, but so far they've been tough to communicate with and rash in their decision-making. I feel like they'd be "that" landlord to make our lives hell.

Then again, we love the house. Any thoughts on my last post about the possibility of my roommate buying the place?

 
I need to add this disclaimer:

Note that I'm not a lawyer and am not offering legally advice. Consult an attorney or you state's real estate commission to determine your legal recourse.
:D Understood.

 
Then again, we love the house. Any thoughts on my last post about the possibility of my roommate buying the place?
Do you plan on staying there for a few years? If so, I think this is your best bet by far.
Yes, we would be staying for a while. I think it's the best option too, we're just not sure how to present that idea to the landlord and how the qualification process will work.edit: off to lunch, thanks for everything so far guys :thumbup:

 
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Simplistically, If someone has $5-10K, even $2K and can't get a conventional loan, their credit is abysmal.  Credit is an indicator of personal responsibility.  They will fail in the Land Contract.  Certainly when the shady owner strips them of every bit of nest egg that might be used to weather the storm and protect them.

I do rentals right in the heart of Downtown, and look for young professionals working in the High Rise buildings or College students.  I will absolutely sit on a property as needed waiting for a good tenant.  An empty unit is better than a bad tenant anytime.  I think 5 months sitting is the longest for a rental, but I haven't exactly checked.
I'm glad to know that I'm not on an island here.I'd be interested in your thoughts on the following Mike...We've moved away from traditional credit score numbers and have out own rating system based on the account standings. Without getting into specifics, it's eliminated the debt and inquiry dings. Basically I don't care if you're in debt to deep if you've demonstrated that you''ve always found a way to pay the bills. Seems to work for me and has expanded the pool of qualified and good tenants I'm placing. Our average days on market last year was about 60, but that came down and I'm currently seeing about 30. Maybe the interest rate hikes are starting to help.
Bass, I went back and edited my post to add more thoughts, bringing it up to here as you might not go back:
Simplistically, If someone has $5-10K, even $2K and can't get a conventional loan, their credit is abysmal. Credit is an indicator of personal responsibility. They will fail in the Land Contract. Certainly when the shady owner strips them of every bit of nest egg that might be used to weather the storm and protect them.Then remember that a Land Contract makes the buyer responsible for the upkeep. 9 times out of 10 the whole reason that the seller is going Land Contract instead of a conventional loan that would pay him off IMMEDIATELY instead of over time is that the house can't get top dollar or won't sell. The reason is always that the house is in poor repair, the roof is bad, the furnace is about to go, the walls are cracked and falling down, something. The house is RIDICULOUSLY overpriced, something is terribly wrong somewhere with it. The owner would cash out right now if the house would sell for what he wants for it. There is absolutely no way he would go Land Contract.Now the buyer has bad credit and can't get a loan to keep him afloat, he has no reserves as the owner just drained him, and then the roof starts leaking and it is the buyers responsibility to repair.Now on the credit report. I am absolutely with you. When we run a credit report, you can get all the nuts and bolts for a price, and then the actual score for $5-10 more. I forget. I never look at the actual score. I don't really care.I look at payment history. If I can see that you have paid every single debt perfectly for the last 20-24 months, I don't really care about 6 years ago in college (Within reason of course).

I really don't care about unpaid medical bills if they are not current, and I don't see a likely move towards Bankruptcy (Certainly don't want to be included in a bankruptcy). My thought is that if they were young, still looking for the professional job, got ill without company insurance, what were they going to do? Die? I would have gone to the hospital, and figured it out later over dieing. Now it does need to be years ago, and not yesterday. That is a BIG reason that credit scores are driven down from my experience.

I also don't really worry about Student loans in arrears. Student gets out of school, the payments start coming in, but the student struggles in finding professional employment. Finally takes a lower paying job within the professional world, but at this point is a few thousand behind on the school loans Certainly if they have more than one school loan payment active and have not consolidated them. They do have needed to actually have a degree, and not dropped out and just ignored them.

I look at every credit ap independently of the last. I likely turn down 10 renters who actually get to ap stage a month (Most get weeded out before that point), and leave things sitting open waiting for the right renter.

 
I would want to talk with Bass, PM him or hope he sees this, but 60/40% seems way out of whack. Way out of whack. Bass would know, I do not.
This number acutually seems reasonable and I've heard of 50/50 in ski and beach markets. I know it seems high, but that should include the cleaning and turn around. On weeklies that means you need someone there on Saturday cleaning and doing an inventory. You also have a contract for each transaction and credit card processing expenses. I've considered getting onto the market, but would have to give up my fbg posting, NFL football, hunting, and wimmens to make it work. Now that I think about, giving up those things w/o adding new business would still be a huge windfall. :eek:
 
Here's another idea.  One of the guys living here, we'll call him Q, has expressed an interest in buying the place.  It's a 4br colonial from the 60s, like most of the other houses in the area, and he has heard through neighborhood chatter that the going rate is around 500k.  However, we think our house is likely one of the worst on the block since it has no carport, an unfinished basement, a poorly manicured lawn, a furnace that's about to croak, and several cosmetic blemishes.  In other words, we're thinking it'll be in the 400s.

So, Q makes about 70k, has no depedents, and has very very little debt.  What are the chances he could qualify to buy the place with me and the other roommate agreeing to pay about 1k per month as lessees?

And furthermore, do you think the owner would be receptive to such an idea or are they more likely to want to make their renovations and sell higher?
To be painfully blunt here, your LL is a moron. EVERY time I look to sell a house, I offer it to the current renters first. Then again, I am proud of what I do, and my places are in top top shape. I wouldn't rent out a dog that is not a top market value. If the tenants buy it, I don't have to advertise, hire an agent, and My costs are next to nothing. I can also provide a history of good payment, and suggest that they use my Mortgage broker to make things sail right through.Sounds like Q would easily qualify for a loan under the current lending practices. I will say that the Fed is expected to raise rates today/tonight with the news that Americas personal savings was in the negative in 2005 for the first time since the great depression. Greenspan is retiring, and I admit that I am not as confident as I was a week ago. Anyway, talk to a mortgage broker now, and get locked in to a rate. They can hold a rate for 30 days at minimum.

Only issue I have seen with these deals in the past is that the other guys need to remember that Q owns the house, and you are tenants. Once you figure out that you are buying him a house, resentment sets in when he lays down some law. These things go sour more than you think.

You guys need to get everything in writing so Q doesn't go off like a dictator, and the other guys don't abuse/take advantage of him.

Should everyone move out in a dispute, can Q carry it by himself? His loan officer is going to want written leases for all the guys in house to help show income for Q. Is that going to be an issue?

As for the seller, if he has not yet hired an agent, it will go easier. If he has, HOPEFULLY he has an Open or Exclusive-agency listing. Agents fight hard to get an Exclusive-right-to-sell listing. These are TERRIBLE, but most sellers don't understand that they have options, and accept what is put in front of them.

EVERY SELLER should hold out for an Exclusive-agency listing contract where the agent only gets paid if they generated the sale. If someone calls off the sign, the agent is paid, but if the Owner finds a buyer while at Walmart, the Agent deserves no compensation. The agent is still protected, and will get a commission 99% of the time, but if the Owner is entirely responsible for the sale, the Agent is not compensated.

If it is an Exclusive-right-to-sell listing, the Agent costs must now be accounted for, and it will cost you more.

 
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Here's another idea.  One of the guys living here, we'll call him Q, has expressed an interest in buying the place.  It's a 4br colonial from the 60s, like most of the other houses in the area, and he has heard through neighborhood chatter that the going rate is around 500k.  However, we think our house is likely one of the worst on the block since it has no carport, an unfinished basement, a poorly manicured lawn, a furnace that's about to croak, and several cosmetic blemishes.  In other words, we're thinking it'll be in the 400s.

So, Q makes about 70k, has no depedents, and has very very little debt.  What are the chances he could qualify to buy the place with me and the other roommate agreeing to pay about 1k per month as lessees?

And furthermore, do you think the owner would be receptive to such an idea or are they more likely to want to make their renovations and sell higher?
To be painfully blunt here, your LL is a moron. EVERY time I look to sell a house, I offer it to the current renters first. Then again, I am proud of what I do, and my places are in top top shape. I wouldn't rent out a dog that is not a top market value. If the tenants buy it, I don't have to advertise, hire an agent, and My costs are next to nothing. I can also provide a history of good payment, and suggest that they use my Mortgage broker to make things sail right through.Sounds like Q would easily qualify for a loan under the current lending practices. I will say that the Fed is expected to raise rates today/tonight with the news that Americas personal savings was in the negative in 2005 for the first time since the great depression. Greenspan is retiring, and I admit that I am not as confident as I was a week ago. Anyway, talk to a mortgage broker now, and get locked in to a rate. They can hold a rate for 30 days at minimum.

Only issue I have seen with these deals in the past is that the other guys need to remember that Q owns the house, and you are tenants. Once you figure out that you are buying him a house, resentment sets in when he lays down some law. These things go sour more than you think.

You guys need to get everything in writing so Q doesn't go off like a dictator, and the other guys don't abuse/take advantage of him.

Should everyone move out in a dispute, can Q carry it by himself? His loan officer is going to want written leases for all the guys in house to help show income for Q. Is that going to be an issue?

As for the seller, if he has not yet hired an agent, it will go easier. If he has, HOPEFULLY he has an Open or Exclusive-agency listing. Agents fight hard to get an Exclusive-right-to-sell listing. These are TERRIBLE, but most sellers don't understand that they have options, and accept what is put in front of them.

EVERY SELLER should hold out for an Exclusive-agency listing contract where the agent only gets paid if they generated the sale. If someone calls off the sign, the agent is paid, but if the Owner finds a buyer while at Walmart, the Agent deserves no compensation. The agent is still protected, and will get a commission 99% of the time, but if the Owner is entirely responsible for the sale, the Agent is not compensated.

If it is an Exclusive-right-to-sell listing, the Agent costs must now be accounted for, and it will cost you more.
Something else to consider:How Handy is Q? If as you state the house is a dog and needs a new furnace, roof, everything, how will these be addressed?

The Mortgage broker could call for these to be repaired before the loan goes through.

If not, can Q handle replacing the roof? Are you guys going to pay an additional per diem to repair it? Will Q get disgruntled using every single dime he has all the time to provide you guys a good place to live? When the money is pouring out of his pocket, he may not see the long term value of owning the house.

Instead of asking for $100K off, write the repairs into the contract. Pay full price, or just $50K off to have a new furnace and the roof repaired before you go to the closing table. If he won't do the work, see if getting bids and where he puts money in escrow for the repairs after Q takes possession.

Lots to consider there.

 
Valhallan,Got your Email, I'll look over it today. Question, and this makes a decent difference. It's a Coldwell Banker tempet. Do you know if your LL is actually an agent with CB, or that your LL hired CB to find renters?

 
I would want to talk with Bass, PM him or hope he sees this, but 60/40% seems way out of whack.  Way out of whack.  Bass would know, I do not.
This number acutually seems reasonable and I've heard of 50/50 in ski and beach markets. I know it seems high, but that should include the cleaning and turn around. On weeklies that means you need someone there on Saturday cleaning and doing an inventory. You also have a contract for each transaction and credit card processing expenses. I've considered getting onto the market, but would have to give up my fbg posting, NFL football, hunting, and wimmens to make it work. Now that I think about, giving up those things w/o adding new business would still be a huge windfall. :eek:
Is a 60/40 split about the norm for residential property rented out yearly? Is using Property Management only beneficial if you plan on owning the property long term or live far away?
 
Valhallan,

Got your Email, I'll look over it today. Question, and this makes a decent difference. It's a Coldwell Banker tempet. Do you know if your LL is actually an agent with CB, or that your LL hired CB to find renters?
They hired CB to find renters. I actually got in contact with that guy myself and he pointed us to this house.
 
I would want to talk with Bass, PM him or hope he sees this, but 60/40% seems way out of whack.  Way out of whack.  Bass would know, I do not.
This number acutually seems reasonable and I've heard of 50/50 in ski and beach markets. I know it seems high, but that should include the cleaning and turn around. On weeklies that means you need someone there on Saturday cleaning and doing an inventory. You also have a contract for each transaction and credit card processing expenses. I've considered getting onto the market, but would have to give up my fbg posting, NFL football, hunting, and wimmens to make it work. Now that I think about, giving up those things w/o adding new business would still be a huge windfall. :eek:
Is a 60/40 split about the norm for residential property rented out yearly? Is using Property Management only beneficial if you plan on owning the property long term or live far away?
When I was looking to purchase I found splits anywhere from 85/15 to 60/40. I never saw a 50/50 split. I live in Cincinnati and can't drive 4.5 hours every weekend to fix the place up and clean so that new clients can arrive. That is why we have a PM.
 
Only issue I have seen with these deals in the past is that the other guys need to remember that Q owns the house, and you are tenants. Once you figure out that you are buying him a house, resentment sets in when he lays down some law. These things go sour more than you think.You guys need to get everything in writing so Q doesn't go off like a dictator, and the other guys don't abuse/take advantage of him.
Your point is well taken, but I think we're in a good situation here. We've all known each other since high school and have lived together many times. I'm certainly not eager to "give" my money to Q, but I know he's a good guy and won't screw me.
Should everyone move out in a dispute, can Q carry it by himself? His loan officer is going to want written leases for all the guys in house to help show income for Q. Is that going to be an issue?
I'm not sure he could carry it by himself. Maybe. It wouldn't be an issue for us to write leases to show income; we're expecting as much.
As for the seller, if he has not yet hired an agent, it will go easier. If he has, HOPEFULLY he has an Open or Exclusive-agency listing. Agents fight hard to get an Exclusive-right-to-sell listing. These are TERRIBLE, but most sellers don't understand that they have options, and accept what is put in front of them.EVERY SELLER should hold out for an Exclusive-agency listing contract where the agent only gets paid if they generated the sale. If someone calls off the sign, the agent is paid, but if the Owner finds a buyer while at Walmart, the Agent deserves no compensation. The agent is still protected, and will get a commission 99% of the time, but if the Owner is entirely responsible for the sale, the Agent is not compensated.If it is an Exclusive-right-to-sell listing, the Agent costs must now be accounted for, and it will cost you more.
I have no idea what their agent relationship is. The agent from Metrostar doesn't speak English very well, so I'm tempted to go straight to the landlord so we can really hash out the details. Should I at least contact them to find about the exclusive-right-to-sell possibility?
Something else to consider:How Handy is Q? If as you state the house is a dog and needs a new furnace, roof, everything, how will these be addressed?The Mortgage broker could call for these to be repaired before the loan goes through.If not, can Q handle replacing the roof? Are you guys going to pay an additional per diem to repair it? Will Q get disgruntled using every single dime he has all the time to provide you guys a good place to live? When the money is pouring out of his pocket, he may not see the long term value of owning the house.Instead of asking for $100K off, write the repairs into the contract. Pay full price, or just $50K off to have a new furnace and the roof repaired before you go to the closing table. If he won't do the work, see if getting bids and where he puts money in escrow for the repairs after Q takes possession.
These are certainly things we need to discuss with Q. I didn't mention a problem with the roof, though. Are you just assuming it would need repairs eventually? He has been talking about getting into real estate for a long time, but our rock band situation has kept us all in the renting phase so we could have a place to play. This is the first reasonable opportunity we've had to secure a house and I think Q is very much eager to pour his resources into it for many reasons.
 
I would want to talk with Bass, PM him or hope he sees this, but 60/40% seems way out of whack.  Way out of whack.  Bass would know, I do not.
This number acutually seems reasonable and I've heard of 50/50 in ski and beach markets. I know it seems high, but that should include the cleaning and turn around. On weeklies that means you need someone there on Saturday cleaning and doing an inventory. You also have a contract for each transaction and credit card processing expenses. I've considered getting onto the market, but would have to give up my fbg posting, NFL football, hunting, and wimmens to make it work. Now that I think about, giving up those things w/o adding new business would still be a huge windfall. :eek:
Is a 60/40 split about the norm for residential property rented out yearly? Is using Property Management only beneficial if you plan on owning the property long term or live far away?
6% to 12% plus a lease fee (maybe a half's month rent) is a more common range for a yearly rental. You need to see what's included...signage, advertising, MLS listing, referrel fees, etc. 10% may actually be cheaper then 6% depending on what's include. Best two reasons to use a property manager...1) You live a ways away from the property, 2) Your time is worth more in your primary career then handling showings, screening tenants, collecting rent, arranging repairs.
 
One thing I forgot to add about vacation rentals and it will vary by state...the state will want hotel/motel tax for shorter term rentals. 3 months is the cut off in my state.

 
Jeff, thanks for doing this. Do you sell homes on contract? I have seen some of these deals done and they look sweet. I have a modest 3BR/2BATH and I don't have much equity. If I'm able to upgrade in a couple of years, I might like to sell this one on contract.

The way I understand it is that the buyer often does not complete the sale. You keep his down payment and monthly payments. I also understand that you structure the deal so that if he does complete the sale after the allotted time, you still do fine. Is my basic understanding correct? What more should I know?
That the damage to your property from the Failed Land Contract/Tenant will be extensive.
Is this also true of renters? Are land contract buyers, who put down 2-5% WORSE?
Still interested in hearing if somehow the land contract buyers are worse than regular renters, if you get a chance Mike. If so, do you do all of your deals without tenants, or do they profits offset the damage done by your tenants?
It's more a funtion of the type of credit then the type of deal...
Good credit: 98% chance I get the home back in good condition.Marginal credit: 75% chance I get the home back in good condition.Bad credit: I know I'll offend some people, but legitimate excuses for bad credit are few and far between. It shows a lack of personal responsibility or a high risk taker...not someone I want to be renting or selling to.
Simplistically, If someone has $5-10K, even $2K and can't get a conventional loan, their credit is abysmal. Credit is an indicator of personal responsibility. They will fail in the Land Contract. Certainly when the shady owner strips them of every bit of nest egg that might be used to weather the storm and protect them.Then remember that a Land Contract makes the buyer responsible for the upkeep. 9 times out of 10 the whole reason that the seller is going Land Contract instead of a conventional loan that would pay him off IMMEDIATELY instead of over time is that the house can't get top dollar or won't sell. The reason is always that the house is in poor repair, the roof is bad, the furnace is about to go, the walls are cracked and falling down, something. The house is RIDICULOUSLY overpriced, something is terribly wrong somewhere with it. The owner would cash out right now if the house would sell for what he wants for it. There is absolutely no way he would go Land Contract.

Now the buyer has bad credit and can't get a loan to keep him afloat, he has no reserves as the owner just drained him, and then the roof starts leaking and it is the buyers responsibility to repair.

I do rentals right in the heart of Downtown, and look for young professionals working in the High Rise buildings or College students. I will absolutely sit on a property as needed waiting for a good tenant. An empty unit is better than a bad tenant anytime. I think 5 months sitting is the longest for a rental, but I haven't exactly checked.
Thanks for the clarification. One thing I learned is that the buyer is responsible for maintenance. I didn't know that.
 
Hey guys this thread is full of great info! Really cool to read.

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I have a question. Last April I bought a vacation home in Gatlinburg, TN for $269,000. The house is 5 years old now. At the time of the sale we were told that the home for the past two years brought in $42,000 and $57,000 in net income from rentals. The worst year the house had was its first year and that was $37,000. We get 60% and the manager gets 40%. With our mortgage payment of $1390 per month we would have been making BIG MONEY. In fact the worst year we would still have profited. Last year of course the house only brought in $20,000. We lost money on the year. We of course put the house up for sale in August and have had 3 offers to buy at $299,000, but the deals (all 3) didn't go through because of financing on the buyers end.

We feel we should get out of the house while we can before interest rates go to high and we are stuck with a house that insn't generating a positive cash flow. Do you guys think this is the correct way of thinking?

Also, do you guys think the agent could have received bad numbers from the rental agency to try and get the house sold? I have asked to see numbers from previous years and they refuse. I think we could have been led into a trap with this house. It doesn't make sense to have the house fall 17k short of its worst year. If they indeed did provide false numbers can we force the rental agency to buy the house?

Finally, I am trying to figure out what kind of tax break this house will bring. We put 5% down on the house. I have been told we could get back as much as 5-8k from this house alone.

I appreciate all the help and look forward to seeing your answers!
We've been to Gatlinburg 3 times in 5 years and rented through www.PatriotGetaways.com. If that's not your PM, I thought you'd like to know that I think they do a good job marketing their properties. I get constant emails, and the specials are usually enticing enough for me to go to their website and thumb through several pages of cabin listings.
 
Hey guys this thread is full of great info!  Really cool to read.

-------

I have a question.  Last April I bought a vacation home in Gatlinburg, TN for $269,000.  The house is 5 years old now.  At the time of the sale we were told that the home for the past two years brought in $42,000 and $57,000 in net income from rentals.  The worst year the house had was its first year and that was $37,000.  We get 60% and the manager gets 40%.  With our mortgage payment of $1390 per month we would have been making BIG MONEY.  In fact the worst year we would still have profited.  Last year of course the house only brought in $20,000.  We lost money on the year.  We of course put the house up for sale in August and have had 3 offers to buy at $299,000, but the deals (all 3) didn't go through because of financing on the buyers end. 

We feel we should get out of the house while we can before interest rates go to high and we are stuck with a house that insn't generating a positive cash flow.  Do you guys think this is the correct way of thinking?

Also, do you guys think the agent could have received bad numbers from the rental agency to try and get the house sold?  I have asked to see numbers from previous years and they refuse.  I think we could have been led into a trap with this house.  It doesn't make sense to have the house fall 17k short of its worst year.  If they indeed did provide false numbers can we force the rental agency to buy the house?

Finally, I am trying to figure out what kind of tax break this house will bring.  We put 5% down on the house.  I have been told we could get back as much as 5-8k from this house alone.

I appreciate all the help and look forward to seeing your answers!
We've been to Gatlinburg 3 times in 5 years and rented through www.PatriotGetaways.com. If that's not your PM, I thought you'd like to know that I think they do a good job marketing their properties. I get constant emails, and the specials are usually enticing enough for me to go to their website and thumb through several pages of cabin listings.
Thanks I will look into that!
 
I would want to talk with Bass, PM him or hope he sees this, but 60/40% seems way out of whack.  Way out of whack.  Bass would know, I do not.
This number acutually seems reasonable and I've heard of 50/50 in ski and beach markets. I know it seems high, but that should include the cleaning and turn around. On weeklies that means you need someone there on Saturday cleaning and doing an inventory. You also have a contract for each transaction and credit card processing expenses. I've considered getting onto the market, but would have to give up my fbg posting, NFL football, hunting, and wimmens to make it work. Now that I think about, giving up those things w/o adding new business would still be a huge windfall. :eek:
Is a 60/40 split about the norm for residential property rented out yearly? Is using Property Management only beneficial if you plan on owning the property long term or live far away?
In my Market a PM makes a standard 10% of gross incoming rent, but everything is negotiable. That 10% is for full service in every way.Obviously doesn't take repairs or costs to clean up the unit outside of normal wear and tear into account, but marketing, Rent collecting, screening, management, bill payment (Utilities/Mortgage), etc.

 
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Jeff, thanks for doing this. Do you sell homes on contract?  I have seen some of these deals done and they look sweet.  I have a modest 3BR/2BATH and I don't have much equity.  If I'm able to upgrade in a couple of years, I might like to sell this one on contract. 

The way I understand it is that the buyer often does not complete the sale.  You keep his down payment and monthly payments.  I also understand that you structure the deal so that if he does complete the sale after the allotted time, you still do fine.  Is my basic understanding correct?  What more should I know?
That the damage to your property from the Failed Land Contract/Tenant will be extensive.
Is this also true of renters? Are land contract buyers, who put down 2-5% WORSE?
Still interested in hearing if somehow the land contract buyers are worse than regular renters, if you get a chance Mike. If so, do you do all of your deals without tenants, or do they profits offset the damage done by your tenants?
It's more a function of the type of credit then the type of deal...
Good credit: 98% chance I get the home back in good condition.Marginal credit: 75% chance I get the home back in good condition.Bad credit: I know I'll offend some people, but legitimate excuses for bad credit are few and far between. It shows a lack of personal responsibility or a high risk taker...not someone I want to be renting or selling to.
Simplistically, If someone has $5-10K, even $2K and can't get a conventional loan, their credit is abysmal. Credit is an indicator of personal responsibility. They will fail in the Land Contract. Certainly when the shady owner strips them of every bit of nest egg that might be used to weather the storm and protect them.Then remember that a Land Contract makes the buyer responsible for the upkeep. 9 times out of 10 the whole reason that the seller is going Land Contract instead of a conventional loan that would pay him off IMMEDIATELY instead of over time is that the house can't get top dollar or won't sell. The reason is always that the house is in poor repair, the roof is bad, the furnace is about to go, the walls are cracked and falling down, something. The house is RIDICULOUSLY overpriced, something is terribly wrong somewhere with it. The owner would cash out right now if the house would sell for what he wants for it. There is absolutely no way he would go Land Contract.

Now the buyer has bad credit and can't get a loan to keep him afloat, he has no reserves as the owner just drained him, and then the roof starts leaking and it is the buyers responsibility to repair.

I do rentals right in the heart of Downtown, and look for young professionals working in the High Rise buildings or College students. I will absolutely sit on a property as needed waiting for a good tenant. An empty unit is better than a bad tenant anytime. I think 5 months sitting is the longest for a rental, but I haven't exactly checked.
Thanks for the clarification. One thing I learned is that the buyer is responsible for maintenance. I didn't know that.
I'll say again, in 10 years of experience, in contact with tons of investors, the ONLY times I know of that a Land Contract worked is 2 occasions where an experienced investor was the buyer, and he was buying it to rent out from day one.I know guys that survive on selling Land Contract, who laugh about the fact that they will never actually sell a house.

They take $4K up front, then rent at a couple hundred over the current rental market, While making sure to not give the buyer any actual equity in the home (That is a terrible rookie mistake by investors). The buyer goes along say 6 months, overpaying by say $200-300.00 a month. So at the time of Failure, the seller has say $5K built up.

You can get renters out FAST in Indiana, the courts in my area are EXTREMELY LL friendly. The seller losses a month in rent, and another month getting it back together. On top of that, maybe a Grand in repairs, often much less as they just through them back together knowing some desperate fool will take the place in almost any condition. (I once saw a Family take a Land Contract where the carpet was covered in Blood where the condition was the buyer had to replace it) In fact, many sellers know they have the buyer over the barrel, and write in all sorts of conditions like the buyer has to put in new Windows, or anything else that can later be used to void the contract if they actually get close to selling it.

So the Seller picks up $3K after turnover upgrades twice a year for a crappy house that he couldn't sell in any other way.

I'll make my Money renting great spaces to great people. I really couldn't handle the constant heartache of people trashing my places.

There was a guy here that taught me alot. He was a complete Land Contract weasel, but I learned a ton from him. Ultimately, he went under, but I was the "Witness to be used in court if needed" he would call out when he got back possession and took pictures.

I remember one with fire damage in the kitchen, new carpets completely destroyed in 2 months, Food EVERYWHERE! Fast food was just eaten and laying where it dropped in every area of the house, clothes everywhere which we later found out was covered in Lice. Fleas like you wouldn't believe (Although I have had some TERRIBLE flea issues myself). Cat and dog solid waste EVERYWHERE on everything, Fridge and Stove stolen, the grass in the yard was a foot tall.

And the worst part. The buyers had the water turned off on them, and continued to use the toilets to the point of overflow. OH MY GOD VILE!!!

The buyers had planted flowers and put mulch in the front yard along with a privacy fence in back, from the street, the place looked great, and it was on a good street a few doors down from a park. Looked nice until you got inside.

At the end of the day, this acquaintance made about $2K profit in two months after he cleaned everything up from these animals.

I CANNOT be convinced that a Land Contract is a good thing for anyone. Predators use it to sucker the very weakest of society, and are many times taken advantage of themselves.

I will also add that From my experience, many/most land contract buyers are those that can no longer rent anywhere because they have proven they can't be responsible with a place. After multiple evictions and damage no decent LL will rent to them anymore, and they really have no choice but to Land Contract or live with Family that they have already abused and doesn't want them anymore.

 
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This thread is fantastic! Now if there was only an *** Official Re-habbers Forum ***, I'd be sporting Mahogany all day long. That is my true passion. Buying, selling, renting, all good, but I mostly like putting the places together and what goes with that.

 
Man, I'm gone maybe 12 hours and this thread takes off... nice job by all.Looks like I struck a nerve.I'll try and catch up and add some comments.....

 

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