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Thanks for your input. Another property has resurfaced that cought my attention last summer. Its a 16 unit on a small lake for 330k. Ad says it brings in 4800/mo which is 300/mo per unit. Seems like a pretty good deal, but I've never landloarded before and I'm not really sure that I want to. If the flip goes well, I might seriously consider buying the 16 unit. Any thoughts on this place?

$4800 a month.

GRM (Gross Rent Multiplier) of 100 gives $480,000 value. (Weak estimate).

$4800 x 12 = Gross rent of $57,600 a year.

You have to figure out what expenses you have - management, taxes, insurance, maintenance, vacancy factor, etc. Let's say 33.3% of the rent (could be more or less).

Down to $38,400 a year NET.

This number is your NOI, Net Operating Income.

Now you need a "Cap Rate". 10% is a good deal.

Value = NOI / Cap Rate = $38,400 / 10% = $384,000.

At $330K, this seems like a good deal to me.

Again - it all depends on your expenses.

Let me know where this 16-plex is.

You'd also be in a commercial loan, by the way - a different animal - and the payments are usually higher. All depends on the lender.

Yeah, with a cap rate of about 11.5% this sounds very good. But at that rate I would expect that it either has quality of construction issues, nearing the end of its economic life, or in an undesireable area. If none of those are accurate, it sounds like a helluva deal (based on the assumptions we made for expenses, etc., altho 1/3 is typically realistic)..
Can we go over this again? I was talking to a friend at lunch about Cap Rate and ended up confusing myself. He is looking at a 12 unit for 600K. Each unit brings in 500. Said he could get it on land contract.

I know based on reading here the math doesn't work but had a hard time explaining to him why. He said he would come out about $100/unit ahead each month and own it in 20 or 30 years without making the payments himself. Assuming he's right about the last part would this be a go? :confused:

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I had the opportunity to Welcome BassNBrew to the MECCA of Civilization this morning, and we checked out some of the empire.

He stated that it was a ton better than what he had been lead to believe from my posts. I must be doing too much doom and gloom when I post.

:lmao:

Maybe the drug houses that surround you might give a bad impression?

It's not surround. It's one basic property with 12 Drugged out Efficiencies, that pulls down the immediate houses.

Just yesterday the house next to the ABOMINATION was set on fire by the Dealer that has been operating off the front porch. Good Times.

:ninja::ph34r:

Yeah...I was kind of expecting "escape from New York" after reading Mike's posts. That said, I will take to heart the advice about counting the number of liquor bottles in the alley when evaluating the neighbors.

:lmao::lmao:

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Good stuff here - thanks guys :thumbup: I am working my way through the thread, but at 40+ pages it's gong to take awhile. I would definitely like to purchase an investment property and have been squirelling :moneybag: away for the last year or so where I could. I intend to do as much of the work as possible myself, but would obviously sub out when necessary. At some point I'd like to make this my FT gig. One of my biggest :confused: areas is related to the tax/liability issues and whether or not I need to run everything through an LLC or some other similarly structured legal entity. What's the most appropriate approach or what things should I be thinking through r/e this?ETA. FWIW, I'd be doing the rehab/flip approach.

Hey,Gets busy in-season. We're around.What part of the country are you in?Yes, LLC is probably a good idea, but you may have financing issues (some lenders HATE LLCs).

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Tap, tap, tap.....this thing on ;)

I spent some time reviewing the info on my local investment association and it seems like a no brainer way to get some basic info. The annual memebership is $225 and it seems like this buys you a ton of access to info and "training". Am I being naive here or missing something? This seems like a great opportunity to see what I'm getting myself into.

Is this the ol' bait and switch? :unsure:

Any insight appreciated. TIA.

FWIW, I'm in Atlanta and am referring to this....

GA REIA

Is this Lou Brown's meeting?

The Atlanta / GA area has the biggest RE group in the country.

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Thanks for your input. Another property has resurfaced that cought my attention last summer. Its a 16 unit on a small lake for 330k. Ad says it brings in 4800/mo which is 300/mo per unit. Seems like a pretty good deal, but I've never landloarded before and I'm not really sure that I want to. If the flip goes well, I might seriously consider buying the 16 unit. Any thoughts on this place?

$4800 a month.

GRM (Gross Rent Multiplier) of 100 gives $480,000 value. (Weak estimate).

$4800 x 12 = Gross rent of $57,600 a year.

You have to figure out what expenses you have - management, taxes, insurance, maintenance, vacancy factor, etc. Let's say 33.3% of the rent (could be more or less).

Down to $38,400 a year NET.

This number is your NOI, Net Operating Income.

Now you need a "Cap Rate". 10% is a good deal.

Value = NOI / Cap Rate = $38,400 / 10% = $384,000.

At $330K, this seems like a good deal to me.

Again - it all depends on your expenses.

Let me know where this 16-plex is.

You'd also be in a commercial loan, by the way - a different animal - and the payments are usually higher. All depends on the lender.

Yeah, with a cap rate of about 11.5% this sounds very good. But at that rate I would expect that it either has quality of construction issues, nearing the end of its economic life, or in an undesireable area. If none of those are accurate, it sounds like a helluva deal (based on the assumptions we made for expenses, etc., altho 1/3 is typically realistic)..
Can we go over this again? I was talking to a friend at lunch about Cap Rate and ended up confusing myself. He is looking at a 12 unit for 600K. Each unit brings in 500. Said he could get it on land contract.

I know based on reading here the math doesn't work but had a hard time explaining to him why. He said he would come out about $100/unit ahead each month and own it in 20 or 30 years without making the payments himself. Assuming he's right about the last part would this be a go? :confused:

Yeah, we can do this again.

Based on what a fellow investor told me (and Mike, chime in here as a LL), the expenses run 40-45% of the rent.

Let's take this property you have here.

12 units, $600K, that's $50K a unit.

Rent is $500.

That's 100x the rent - see "weak value" argurment using the GRM above. Not a good sign.

Your annual GROSS rent is $500 x12 x12 = $6,000 x12 = $72,000.

If you had NO EXPENSES this would be you NOI (net operating income). If you then wanted a cap rate of 10% (average/good investment), you take:

VALUE = NOI / Cap Rate.

Simple, but tells a lot. Here, Cap Rate of 10% means just take NOI x 10. That would give a value of $720,000. But wait............EXPENSES.

NOI = Gross rents LESS EXPENSES. Even if it is ONLY 33%, that's $24,000 lost. Now you have an NOI of $48K. In reality, as I said before, I understand it is more in the 40% range. That's worse.

Let's take the $48K.

Value = 48K / 10% = $480K. Ouch.

So at $600K, what's the Cap Rate? Cap Rate = NOI/Value = 48/600 = 8/100 = 8%. Not that great.

Take the NOI down using more expenses and you see what a big mess this becomes.

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Thanks for your input. Another property has resurfaced that cought my attention last summer. Its a 16 unit on a small lake for 330k. Ad says it brings in 4800/mo which is 300/mo per unit. Seems like a pretty good deal, but I've never landloarded before and I'm not really sure that I want to. If the flip goes well, I might seriously consider buying the 16 unit. Any thoughts on this place?

$4800 a month.

GRM (Gross Rent Multiplier) of 100 gives $480,000 value. (Weak estimate).

$4800 x 12 = Gross rent of $57,600 a year.

You have to figure out what expenses you have - management, taxes, insurance, maintenance, vacancy factor, etc. Let's say 33.3% of the rent (could be more or less).

Down to $38,400 a year NET.

This number is your NOI, Net Operating Income.

Now you need a "Cap Rate". 10% is a good deal.

Value = NOI / Cap Rate = $38,400 / 10% = $384,000.

At $330K, this seems like a good deal to me.

Again - it all depends on your expenses.

Let me know where this 16-plex is.

You'd also be in a commercial loan, by the way - a different animal - and the payments are usually higher. All depends on the lender.

Yeah, with a cap rate of about 11.5% this sounds very good. But at that rate I would expect that it either has quality of construction issues, nearing the end of its economic life, or in an undesireable area. If none of those are accurate, it sounds like a helluva deal (based on the assumptions we made for expenses, etc., altho 1/3 is typically realistic)..
Can we go over this again? I was talking to a friend at lunch about Cap Rate and ended up confusing myself. He is looking at a 12 unit for 600K. Each unit brings in 500. Said he could get it on land contract.

I know based on reading here the math doesn't work but had a hard time explaining to him why. He said he would come out about $100/unit ahead each month and own it in 20 or 30 years without making the payments himself. Assuming he's right about the last part would this be a go? :confused:

Yeah, we can do this again.

Based on what a fellow investor told me (and Mike, chime in here as a LL), the expenses run 40-45% of the rent.

Let's take this property you have here.

12 units, $600K, that's $50K a unit.

Rent is $500.

That's 100x the rent - see "weak value" argurment using the GRM above. Not a good sign.

Your annual GROSS rent is $500 x12 x12 = $6,000 x12 = $72,000.

If you had NO EXPENSES this would be you NOI (net operating income). If you then wanted a cap rate of 10% (average/good investment), you take:

VALUE = NOI / Cap Rate.

Simple, but tells a lot. Here, Cap Rate of 10% means just take NOI x 10. That would give a value of $720,000. But wait............EXPENSES.

NOI = Gross rents LESS EXPENSES. Even if it is ONLY 33%, that's $24,000 lost. Now you have an NOI of $48K. In reality, as I said before, I understand it is more in the 40% range. That's worse.

Let's take the $48K.

Value = 48K / 10% = $480K. Ouch.

So at $600K, what's the Cap Rate? Cap Rate = NOI/Value = 48/600 = 8/100 = 8%. Not that great.

Take the NOI down using more expenses and you see what a big mess this becomes.

Right, and he figured once you take out expenses (do you include principal pmt here?) he would make $100/unit per month. Thats 1200/month. Why is this bad?

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Thanks for your input. Another property has resurfaced that cought my attention last summer. Its a 16 unit on a small lake for 330k. Ad says it brings in 4800/mo which is 300/mo per unit. Seems like a pretty good deal, but I've never landloarded before and I'm not really sure that I want to. If the flip goes well, I might seriously consider buying the 16 unit. Any thoughts on this place?

$4800 a month.

GRM (Gross Rent Multiplier) of 100 gives $480,000 value. (Weak estimate).

$4800 x 12 = Gross rent of $57,600 a year.

You have to figure out what expenses you have - management, taxes, insurance, maintenance, vacancy factor, etc. Let's say 33.3% of the rent (could be more or less).

Down to $38,400 a year NET.

This number is your NOI, Net Operating Income.

Now you need a "Cap Rate". 10% is a good deal.

Value = NOI / Cap Rate = $38,400 / 10% = $384,000.

At $330K, this seems like a good deal to me.

Again - it all depends on your expenses.

Let me know where this 16-plex is.

You'd also be in a commercial loan, by the way - a different animal - and the payments are usually higher. All depends on the lender.

Yeah, with a cap rate of about 11.5% this sounds very good. But at that rate I would expect that it either has quality of construction issues, nearing the end of its economic life, or in an undesireable area. If none of those are accurate, it sounds like a helluva deal (based on the assumptions we made for expenses, etc., altho 1/3 is typically realistic)..
Can we go over this again? I was talking to a friend at lunch about Cap Rate and ended up confusing myself. He is looking at a 12 unit for 600K. Each unit brings in 500. Said he could get it on land contract.

I know based on reading here the math doesn't work but had a hard time explaining to him why. He said he would come out about $100/unit ahead each month and own it in 20 or 30 years without making the payments himself. Assuming he's right about the last part would this be a go? :confused:

Yeah, we can do this again.

Based on what a fellow investor told me (and Mike, chime in here as a LL), the expenses run 40-45% of the rent.

Let's take this property you have here.

12 units, $600K, that's $50K a unit.

Rent is $500.

That's 100x the rent - see "weak value" argurment using the GRM above. Not a good sign.

Your annual GROSS rent is $500 x12 x12 = $6,000 x12 = $72,000.

If you had NO EXPENSES this would be you NOI (net operating income). If you then wanted a cap rate of 10% (average/good investment), you take:

VALUE = NOI / Cap Rate.

Simple, but tells a lot. Here, Cap Rate of 10% means just take NOI x 10. That would give a value of $720,000. But wait............EXPENSES.

NOI = Gross rents LESS EXPENSES. Even if it is ONLY 33%, that's $24,000 lost. Now you have an NOI of $48K. In reality, as I said before, I understand it is more in the 40% range. That's worse.

Let's take the $48K.

Value = 48K / 10% = $480K. Ouch.

So at $600K, what's the Cap Rate? Cap Rate = NOI/Value = 48/600 = 8/100 = 8%. Not that great.

Take the NOI down using more expenses and you see what a big mess this becomes.

Right, and he figured once you take out expenses (do you include principal pmt here?) he would make $100/unit per month. Thats 1200/month. Why is this bad?
1200 / month x 12 months = 14,400.

$600,000 in a 5.5% CD yields 33,300.

Basically once you hit $260,000 in equity you're fighting a losing battle.

Overall, not a bad investment, however I'd rather have 12 separate single families or duplexes which might see more appreciation.

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Thanks for your input. Another property has resurfaced that cought my attention last summer. Its a 16 unit on a small lake for 330k. Ad says it brings in 4800/mo which is 300/mo per unit. Seems like a pretty good deal, but I've never landloarded before and I'm not really sure that I want to. If the flip goes well, I might seriously consider buying the 16 unit. Any thoughts on this place?

$4800 a month.

GRM (Gross Rent Multiplier) of 100 gives $480,000 value. (Weak estimate).

$4800 x 12 = Gross rent of $57,600 a year.

You have to figure out what expenses you have - management, taxes, insurance, maintenance, vacancy factor, etc. Let's say 33.3% of the rent (could be more or less).

Down to $38,400 a year NET.

This number is your NOI, Net Operating Income.

Now you need a "Cap Rate". 10% is a good deal.

Value = NOI / Cap Rate = $38,400 / 10% = $384,000.

At $330K, this seems like a good deal to me.

Again - it all depends on your expenses.

Let me know where this 16-plex is.

You'd also be in a commercial loan, by the way - a different animal - and the payments are usually higher. All depends on the lender.

Yeah, with a cap rate of about 11.5% this sounds very good. But at that rate I would expect that it either has quality of construction issues, nearing the end of its economic life, or in an undesireable area. If none of those are accurate, it sounds like a helluva deal (based on the assumptions we made for expenses, etc., altho 1/3 is typically realistic)..
Can we go over this again? I was talking to a friend at lunch about Cap Rate and ended up confusing myself. He is looking at a 12 unit for 600K. Each unit brings in 500. Said he could get it on land contract.

I know based on reading here the math doesn't work but had a hard time explaining to him why. He said he would come out about $100/unit ahead each month and own it in 20 or 30 years without making the payments himself. Assuming he's right about the last part would this be a go? :confused:

Yeah, we can do this again.

Based on what a fellow investor told me (and Mike, chime in here as a LL), the expenses run 40-45% of the rent.

Let's take this property you have here.

12 units, $600K, that's $50K a unit.

Rent is $500.

That's 100x the rent - see "weak value" argurment using the GRM above. Not a good sign.

Your annual GROSS rent is $500 x12 x12 = $6,000 x12 = $72,000.

If you had NO EXPENSES this would be you NOI (net operating income). If you then wanted a cap rate of 10% (average/good investment), you take:

VALUE = NOI / Cap Rate.

Simple, but tells a lot. Here, Cap Rate of 10% means just take NOI x 10. That would give a value of $720,000. But wait............EXPENSES.

NOI = Gross rents LESS EXPENSES. Even if it is ONLY 33%, that's $24,000 lost. Now you have an NOI of $48K. In reality, as I said before, I understand it is more in the 40% range. That's worse.

Let's take the $48K.

Value = 48K / 10% = $480K. Ouch.

So at $600K, what's the Cap Rate? Cap Rate = NOI/Value = 48/600 = 8/100 = 8%. Not that great.

Take the NOI down using more expenses and you see what a big mess this becomes.

Right, and he figured once you take out expenses (do you include principal pmt here?) he would make $100/unit per month. Thats 1200/month. Why is this bad?
Your return on expense (and overall risk) is TERRIBLE.

You're on the hook for $600K of a property to make $14,400. Like BnB said, if you can get a CD for $600K, you're far better off.

Now if you look at return on INVESTMENT (ROI) and you can get $14,400 a year by putting down just 10% ($60K) and finance the rest, thus using LEVERAGE and OPM ("Other Peoples' Money"), you can get an ROI much higher than 20%.

BUT.....

Your expenses on this property AND your payments will kill you.

$7200 a month gross, 60% of that left after expenses ($4520), and you have to pay a note of $540,000 at least. That mortgage will cost at least $600 per $100K borrowed, so you're paying $3400 at a minimum for your payment (and that's a REALLY good rate).

So you still net $1200 a month.

There are better properties.

Figure out the NOI and offer 10 times that amount (actually offer 6-8 times and negotiate up as high as 10 times). That's all you should try and pay. If you are buying at a cap rate comparable to the loan interest rate, you're not making anything but a headache for yourself.

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Cap rate calcs don't include mortgage payments.

Why?

Two main reasons.

1. You can compare properties easily by just seeing which one has a better cap rate (but if you dig in the numbers, things may change of course).

2. Not everyone's $$ costs the same. Some may have a ton in their mattress, others may borrow at 5%, some at 10%. Comparing based on a loan term doesn't make sense - but it does make sense that YOUR MONEY SOURCES cost the same for you across the board, so you can use the cap rate to quickly make decisions.

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I had the opportunity to Welcome BassNBrew to the MECCA of Civilization this morning, and we checked out some of the empire.He stated that it was a ton better than what he had been lead to believe from my posts. I must be doing too much doom and gloom when I post.

:lmao: Maybe the drug houses that surround you might give a bad impression?
It's not surround. It's one basic property with 12 Drugged out Efficiencies, that pulls down the immediate houses.Just yesterday the house next to the ABOMINATION was set on fire by the Dealer that has been operating off the front porch. Good Times.
:ninja::ph34r: Yeah...I was kind of expecting "escape from New York" after reading Mike's posts. That said, I will take to heart the advice about counting the number of liquor bottles in the alley when evaluating the neighbors.
I always look around the area of a perspective buy. Walk into the neighbors yards (Empty of course), look for everything. Liquor and beer bottles are a monster turn off for me. Easy to see Beer cans all over. A single beer can, no big deal. Look for trash, a dog tie out (Who wants to live next to a tied out dog making noise all the time), little things like placement of the trash cans. If they are pulled back from the alley it's a good sign. Parking pads covered in oil/transmission fluid/whatever, they don't care, or don't have the means to care for a basic like a car. Paint, if the houses around are peeling, you aren't going to get the best renters. I have a very good in with Neighborhood code, so if it's a great deal, I sic Code on the neighbors. I have a GREAT house on a street surrounded by beat up houses. It was a smoking deal, and one that I bought early on. I have YET to get a decent renter in the place over the years as the things around it can't get taken care of. I can't tell you how many times I thought about just selling. It's a $650.00 a month place that I can barely get $550.00 a month for because of the neighbors. Most of the applicants I get for it are as trashy as the neighbors. Pick your battles.It's one of the biggest reasons I buy in blocks. If I am going into an area, I want to buy 2-4 properties on the same block. I can fix things with enough properties in one location. I couldn't do a thing scattered all over the city. I concentrate in a few areas.

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Good stuff here - thanks guys :thumbup:

I am working my way through the thread, but at 40+ pages it's gong to take awhile. I would definitely like to purchase an investment property and have been squirelling :moneybag: away for the last year or so where I could. I intend to do as much of the work as possible myself, but would obviously sub out when necessary. At some point I'd like to make this my FT gig.

One of my biggest :confused: areas is related to the tax/liability issues and whether or not I need to run everything through an LLC or some other similarly structured legal entity. What's the most appropriate approach or what things should I be thinking through r/e this?

ETA. FWIW, I'd be doing the rehab/flip approach.

Jeff will have to answer on the Flipping aspect.

For renting, an entity can be difficult. Your lender will most likely not want a property mortgaged to YOU to be moved into an entity that YOU own. The "Due on Sale" clause can come into play. Is that going to happen? I doubt it, I have never even heard of it happening, but it is out there.

I'd be shocked if a Lender is going to give a mortgage to a brand new entity., so it's a catch 22.

The biggest things an entity can do over insurance is protect you from Mold and Lead. You can pay for those riders, but it is costly. With the 2004 study showing no such thing as deadly mold, that fear may go down over the next 5 years or so.

New Federal Study Echoes Real Estate Industry Claims that Mold is Not a Serious Health Hazard

Washington, DC--A long-awaited federal study issued this week finds that while exposure to excessively damp indoor spaces can trigger allergies and may even be associated with the development of asthma in susceptible individuals, there is no evidence that mold causes cancer, debilitating fatigue, gastrointestinal or neurological problems. The study was conducted by the non-partisan Institute of Medicine, part of the Congressionally-chartered National Academy of Sciences that advises the federal government on health issues.

The report was conducted by leading international environmental, health and building scientists over a two-year period and represents the first comprehensive analysis of the health effects associated with damp environments.

"We applaud the thoroughness of the Institute’s report and its role in advancing a balanced and well-reasoned approach to this issue," said Eileen Lee, Ph.D., Vice President of Environment for the Joint Legislative Program of the National Multi Housing Council (NMHC) and National Apartment Association (NAA). "The study should go a long way toward quelling consumer fears about mold and should bring some relief to the real estate industry, which has been inundated with lawsuits seeking compensation for exposure to mold."

"We have all read newspaper stories of people whose severe health problems resolved when they left their moisture-damaged environment, be it an apartment, office or school," noted Lee, "but this report says that we cannot isolate mold as the cause of illness because there are too many other factors in the typical indoor environment that may be influencing health."

According to the new study, "indoor environments subject occupants to multiple exposures that may interact physically or chemically with one another and with other characteristics of the environment such as humidity, temperature, and ventilation rate." It notes that damp environments are associated with dust mites and bacteria which may cause allergic reactions and that damp environments can even lead to chemical emissions from buildings and furnishings.

"NMHC/NAA have been following the mold phenomenon since 1999, when we issued the real estate industry’s first White Paper on the topic," explained Lee. "Long before media coverage of the more sensational but unsubstantiated mold claims, apartment owners took the threat seriously and began training their staff about the importance of controlling moisture to prevent mold growth. With help from an NMHC/NAA training video and a prototype Operations and Maintenance (O&M) plan, apartment staff across the country have implemented our recommended best practices for managing and remediating mold."

Even though the report rejects the most sensational mold-related claims, it echoes NMHC/NAA’s long-held advice to property owners to deal promptly and effectively with indoor dampness.

"The apartment industry is committed to providing environmentally safe homes for the nearly one-third of our population who choose to rent," said Lee. "We strongly support the Institute’s recommendation for additional research in this area, and we endorse the call for the federal government to develop consensus guidelines on building design, construction and operation to prevent damp buildings. NMHC/NAA will continue to lead efforts to create a forum within the real estate community to advance sound construction and operational practices."

If it happens, it is going to take a while for the risk to the LL to go down because we need some court test cases. I DON'T want to be a test case.

Lead is another issue, but you SHOULD have zero problems if you only buy homes built after 1973. Outside of that, it depends on your area. Here in IN, I can have lead everywhere, and as long as I give out the booklet, there are no consequences for me. Infact, my easiest way out is that the entire area I operate in has the water supplied in Lead pipes by the city. We have no rules on lead, but if we did, the buck can be passed.

Live in MA as an example, and Lord have mercy on the LLs soul.

The only real problem with insurance is the limit you buy. I have a 2 million liability umbrella from State Farm that is $500.00 a year and covers 50 properties. Should cover everything, but if for some reason the damages went over that, Insurance can only do so much. I live in IN, and you just aren't going to see those judgments. Live in the Socialist Republic of CA, and I'd worry about insurance only as a Hangnail or a splinter might be worth 10 Million in court.

Really, if you have enough insurance, the insurance company lawyers are going to do all the work for you, and you will be fine. I am a believer in Insurance over an Entity.

For Flipping, I can't see why you would need an entity for liability protection as long as you are doing things right. Just bury the old broken lead storage tank in the yard and EPA comes down on you then an Entity would be best to have in place, but if you are doing the right things, and fully disclose, I don't see the need from a Liability position.

There may be tax advantages that you can get from an entity.

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Tap, tap, tap.....this thing on ;)

I spent some time reviewing the info on my local investment association and it seems like a no brainier way to get some basic info. The annual membership is $225 and it seems like this buys you a ton of access to info and "training". Am I being naive here or missing something? This seems like a great opportunity to see what I'm getting myself into.

Is this the ol' bait and switch? :unsure:

Any insight appreciated. TIA.

FWIW, I'm in Atlanta and am referring to this....

GA REIA

For $225.00 I don't see how you can lose???? The basic info and someone to talk to is going to be worth way more than $225.00

A couple hundred could save you tens of thousands in avoiding the simplest of mistakes.

I am NOT advocating you giving this guy any money, this is not a scheme of any kind. That said, one of my former employees and good friends now operates in Atlanta. If you opt to contact him, his name is Doug, and tell him Anderson sent you. Buy him Lunch or a round of Golf, and he should be able to tell you more in a couple of hours than you could pick up in months of doing it on your own. Here is his webiste:

Freeland Property Group

He is in the business to sell things. I am not saying to buy. Maybe you will, not telling you to. However he is into Flipping and renting. If you tell him I sent you, and buy him a round of golf, just talking for a couple of hours will get you a ton of free info. He plays with a set of Adams "Tight Lies" and is deadly with them, so don't play for money. ;)

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Thanks for your input. Another property has resurfaced that cought my attention last summer. Its a 16 unit on a small lake for 330k. Ad says it brings in 4800/mo which is 300/mo per unit. Seems like a pretty good deal, but I've never landloarded before and I'm not really sure that I want to. If the flip goes well, I might seriously consider buying the 16 unit. Any thoughts on this place?

$4800 a month.

GRM (Gross Rent Multiplier) of 100 gives $480,000 value. (Weak estimate).

$4800 x 12 = Gross rent of $57,600 a year.

You have to figure out what expenses you have - management, taxes, insurance, maintenance, vacancy factor, etc. Let's say 33.3% of the rent (could be more or less).

Down to $38,400 a year NET.

This number is your NOI, Net Operating Income.

Now you need a "Cap Rate". 10% is a good deal.

Value = NOI / Cap Rate = $38,400 / 10% = $384,000.

At $330K, this seems like a good deal to me.

Again - it all depends on your expenses.

Let me know where this 16-plex is.

You'd also be in a commercial loan, by the way - a different animal - and the payments are usually higher. All depends on the lender.

Yeah, with a cap rate of about 11.5% this sounds very good. But at that rate I would expect that it either has quality of construction issues, nearing the end of its economic life, or in an undesireable area. If none of those are accurate, it sounds like a helluva deal (based on the assumptions we made for expenses, etc., altho 1/3 is typically realistic)..
Can we go over this again? I was talking to a friend at lunch about Cap Rate and ended up confusing myself. He is looking at a 12 unit for 600K. Each unit brings in 500. Said he could get it on land contract.

I know based on reading here the math doesn't work but had a hard time explaining to him why. He said he would come out about $100/unit ahead each month and own it in 20 or 30 years without making the payments himself. Assuming he's right about the last part would this be a go? :confused:

Yeah, we can do this again.

Based on what a fellow investor told me (and Mike, chime in here as a LL), the expenses run 40-45% of the rent.

Let's take this property you have here.

12 units, $600K, that's $50K a unit.

Rent is $500.

That's 100x the rent - see "weak value" argurment using the GRM above. Not a good sign.

Your annual GROSS rent is $500 x12 x12 = $6,000 x12 = $72,000.

If you had NO EXPENSES this would be you NOI (net operating income). If you then wanted a cap rate of 10% (average/good investment), you take:

VALUE = NOI / Cap Rate.

Simple, but tells a lot. Here, Cap Rate of 10% means just take NOI x 10. That would give a value of $720,000. But wait............EXPENSES.

NOI = Gross rents LESS EXPENSES. Even if it is ONLY 33%, that's $24,000 lost. Now you have an NOI of $48K. In reality, as I said before, I understand it is more in the 40% range. That's worse.

Let's take the $48K.

Value = 48K / 10% = $480K. Ouch.

So at $600K, what's the Cap Rate? Cap Rate = NOI/Value = 48/600 = 8/100 = 8%. Not that great.

Take the NOI down using more expenses and you see what a big mess this becomes.

Your Key is NOI (Net operating Income)

NOI = Yearly income - Expenses

NOI x 10 = Worth

As Jeff points out above, EVERYTHING depends on Expenses for larger units.

Lowering expenses on a larger property improves worth and makes you money. Then there is the problem with getting the appraiser/buyer to accept your figures. That's a huge issue when it comes to multies. Trusting the expenses.

I'll give you an example of a Duplex I bought a few years back. I saw a $40K duplex making $800.00 a month. THEN I negotiated about $19K in seller repairs before I took possession. (Remember, I am in a buyers market where absolutely everything is negotiable). I got the expense figures from the seller. On top of that, I took my money at 6%, and didn't escrow, so my payment was $218.00 a month. SLAM DUNK, right? I didn't verify the expenses. I paid the Water, Gas, and Electric. The water bill was actually 2 times anything else I had that was a duplex, it was more than any 4 plex I had. It had a HUGE 300K BTU furnace that was running $900.00 a month in the winter, even the budget was some $400.00 or so. The Electric was over $150.00 most months. (Renters who have everything provided just don't care) The reality is that on my BEST month it only cost me $19.00 out of pocket (Not even setting aside for Taxes and Insurance) to have the PRIVILEGE of two complete pain in the rear tenants. One of the tenants might honestly be the worst tenant I've ever had. EVER. I went into my pocket another say $15K for furnaces, and deferred maintenance over the last few years to right this place. It now brings in $925.00 a month, with actual expenses (PITI, utilities, repairs, etc) of about $530.00 a month. I lost money for months on end and it cost me $15K to make $400.00 a month in a good month with no vacancies. At this rate I figure it will take me about 4 years total before it is all over just to break even because I bought a slam dunk, can't lose property. And I can't begin to explain how bad these inherited tenants were!

If you can trust the expenses, and can see many ways to lower them, you have a steal.

Jeff, NOT COUNTING PI (Counting TI) across the board, I run about 22% expenses. I need to do more math to include Repairs and Upgrades. I'd figure about 35% if I included those.

That is one of the problems I see with NOI. It gives you a working value, but at the same time depending on how you get your money, can make a bad deal look good. I always factor in Debt service when looking at a deal. Easy to get burned looking at figures, and not looking at exactly what you make.

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:blackdot:

How did I miss this thread?

BTW, I only buy properties I think will make money in the short term. There's no way I would buy a 12 unit building(at least not with my modest portfolio.) Like BnB said, I'd rather buy individual family homes that I believe will appreciate in the short term...less risk, more upside.(generally)

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:blackdot:How did I miss this thread?BTW, I only buy properties I think will make money in the short term. There's no way I would buy a 12 unit building(at least not with my modest portfolio.) Like BnB said, I'd rather buy individual family homes that I believe will appreciate in the short term...less risk, more upside.(generally)

Happy to see you in here :thumbup: For the record, I also stay away from the bigger properties. I want a Duplex to a fourplex. I have a harder time with SFHs as when they are empty, you get nothing. At least a Duplex can still carry your expenses.My Area doesn't have much appreciation, only the kind you create with upgrades. I operate in a "appreciating" Historic area that is full of College students, Young professionals, blue collar families, and complete bums. Most of the homes are giants. A larger SFH around here won't rent to the better class of tenant. Learned this the hard way.That same home split into a duplex can bring in two upwardly moble young "Families" , couples, singles, and make a mint with MUCH LESS wear and tear than a family with a bunch of kids. More money as well.The key is how you handle people. SFHs are MUCH easier to manage, no grudges between the two groups living in the property.Smaller Multies make more money, and two units in one property is just say one roof to deal with instead of two.

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:blackdot:How did I miss this thread?BTW, I only buy properties I think will make money in the short term. There's no way I would buy a 12 unit building(at least not with my modest portfolio.) Like BnB said, I'd rather buy individual family homes that I believe will appreciate in the short term...less risk, more upside.(generally)

Point of clarification...I don't dislike multi's, they are just priced too high in my market for the rents. Since their value is tied to rents and rents have been flat to declining for 5 years in my area, they are not appreciating. Given the crappy rents around here, appreciation is the only benefit for most investors.

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:blackdot:How did I miss this thread?BTW, I only buy properties I think will make money in the short term. There's no way I would buy a 12 unit building(at least not with my modest portfolio.) Like BnB said, I'd rather buy individual family homes that I believe will appreciate in the short term...less risk, more upside.(generally)

Hey GB,I didn't know you were into Real Estate.:welcome:

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Tap, tap, tap.....this thing on ;)

I spent some time reviewing the info on my local investment association and it seems like a no brainer way to get some basic info. The annual memebership is $225 and it seems like this buys you a ton of access to info and "training". Am I being naive here or missing something? This seems like a great opportunity to see what I'm getting myself into.

Is this the ol' bait and switch? :unsure:

Any insight appreciated. TIA.

FWIW, I'm in Atlanta and am referring to this....

GA REIA

Is this Lou Brown's meeting?

The Atlanta / GA area has the biggest RE group in the country.

Thanks Jeff - I'm not sure who Lou Brown is, but I do see from the site that this is one of the largest ones in the country. I'm going to go to the "orientation" in a few weeks to get a better feel for what's going on. It definitely seems like something that can leverage to get my bearings a bit on what I may be getting myself into.

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Tap, tap, tap.....this thing on ;)

I spent some time reviewing the info on my local investment association and it seems like a no brainier way to get some basic info. The annual membership is $225 and it seems like this buys you a ton of access to info and "training". Am I being naive here or missing something? This seems like a great opportunity to see what I'm getting myself into.

Is this the ol' bait and switch? :unsure:

Any insight appreciated. TIA.

FWIW, I'm in Atlanta and am referring to this....

GA REIA

For $225.00 I don't see how you can lose???? The basic info and someone to talk to is going to be worth way more than $225.00

A couple hundred could save you tens of thousands in avoiding the simplest of mistakes.

I am NOT advocating you giving this guy any money, this is not a scheme of any kind. That said, one of my former employees and good friends now operates in Atlanta. If you opt to contact him, his name is Doug, and tell him Anderson sent you. Buy him Lunch or a round of Golf, and he should be able to tell you more in a couple of hours than you could pick up in months of doing it on your own. Here is his webiste:

Freeland Property Group

He is in the business to sell things. I am not saying to buy. Maybe you will, not telling you to. However he is into Flipping and renting. If you tell him I sent you, and buy him a round of golf, just talking for a couple of hours will get you a ton of free info. He plays with a set of Adams "Tight Lies" and is deadly with them, so don't play for money. ;)

Thanks Mike - I've bookmarked Doug's site and would definitely like to drop your name to see if he'd be willing to talk to me. I'll give you an update once I've accumulated some additional info through the REIA and might actually be able to have a semi-intelligent conversation with him. As for his golf game, your wanring is duly noted :ph34r:

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Lou Brown is a well-known RE investor / guru who now does a lot of speaking and selling his system for buying and selling real estate. He's respected as other "gurus" often use his stuff as a basis for their own niche.

He seems like a solid guy, but now appears to do better as a speaker than as an investor, IMHO. Nothing against that, I mean, if he teaches you to do just one RE deal, you have paid for EVERYTHING he sells, so no big deal. Unfortunately, many never get up and do any of the RE stuff they allegedly learn.

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Lou Brown is a well-known RE investor / guru who now does a lot of speaking and selling his system for buying and selling real estate. He's respected as other "gurus" often use his stuff as a basis for their own niche.He seems like a solid guy, but now appears to do better as a speaker than as an investor, IMHO. Nothing against that, I mean, if he teaches you to do just one RE deal, you have paid for EVERYTHING he sells, so no big deal. Unfortunately, many never get up and do any of the RE stuff they allegedly learn.

I think this applies to almost any siminar about investing in any area. If it's so easy and there's so much money on the table, why aren't people doing rather then peddling what to do.

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I am not sure which guru would be best suited to answer this so it is open to all.

I posted several times (to Jeff's delight I am sure, LOL) about buying a neighboring piece of property in mid-Missouri. We live just outside city limits and we have a bit over five acres, with a creek along the Southern border of our land. The land on the other side of the creek (3 acres) has a small one or two room octagonal house (about 500 square feet) that was built as an artist's retreat and a small screened in, well if kids played in it I would call it a clubhouse. It is appraised at $42,500 on the county assessor's website.

It has been in the same family for three generations and the most recent occupant was the grandson of the owner who married a woman with two school age children, so it obviously is not suited for them. It has been unoccupied for some months now.

I would like to buy it now or have the right to buy if they ever sell.

I have been reading about options and first right of refusal.

Questions

a) should I contact the mother of the most recent occupant, who controls the property and is a domineering woman

b) should a retain a realtor or attorney and have them contact the mother

c) which do I want, an option or first right of refusal in this case (I am suspecting that the mother will not sell and once she dies, the kid will grab a cash offer)

d) how do I know what to offer in either case for the buying price and the contract price (meaning to enter into option or first right of refusal)

e) any other suggestions on how to persuade a person to sell or handle the situation appreciated.

Thanks,

Dan

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I am not sure which guru would be best suited to answer this so it is open to all.

I posted several times (to Jeff's delight I am sure, LOL) about buying a neighboring piece of property in mid-Missouri. We live just outside city limits and we have a bit over five acres, with a creek along the Southern border of our land. The land on the other side of the creek (3 acres) has a small one or two room octagonal house (about 500 square feet) that was built as an artist's retreat and a small screened in, well if kids played in it I would call it a clubhouse. It is appraised at $42,500 on the county assessor's website.

It has been in the same family for three generations and the most recent occupant was the grandson of the owner who married a woman with two school age children, so it obviously is not suited for them. It has been unoccupied for some months now.

I would like to buy it now or have the right to buy if they ever sell.

I have been reading about options and first right of refusal.

Questions

a) should I contact the mother of the most recent occupant, who controls the property and is a domineering woman

b) should a retain a realtor or attorney and have them contact the mother

c) which do I want, an option or first right of refusal in this case (I am suspecting that the mother will not sell and once she dies, the kid will grab a cash offer)

d) how do I know what to offer in either case for the buying price and the contract price (meaning to enter into option or first right of refusal)

e) any other suggestions on how to persuade a person to sell or handle the situation appreciated.

Thanks,

Dan

Dan,

Crazy / busy week, but wanted to get you an answer.

I'm not an expert on this aspect, but I'll throw my :2cents: in.

I have been reading about options and first right of refusal.

Questions

a) should I contact the mother of the most recent occupant, who controls the property and is a domineering woman

b) should a retain a realtor or attorney and have them contact the mother

This is an "or" question, A or B. Ultimately you'll have to talk with the decision maker, which seems to be this woman, so that's going to be unavoidable. I would find out through her family / association what is the best way to approach her and go that route. You have to deal with her, else there is no deal.

I prefer the direct approach, as the more people that are go-betweens, the slower the communications and the greater likelihood that a question or answer is misrepresented. She may prefer official communications via letters from attorneys or such, or that might put her off. If she has an attorney, I'd call him and ask about the property, express your interest, and ask what is the best way to initiate a discussion.

c) which do I want, an option or first right of refusal in this case (I am suspecting that the mother will not sell and once she dies, the kid will grab a cash offer)

Again, I will speak from MY exposure to this, but by all means you likely need a local RE attorney.

An OPTION is the ability to do something. You have the legal right to do something (buy or sell) with certain pre-defined terms. For example, you may have an option to buy land at $20,000 per acre, and in that option you have certain criteria (any time within the next 10 years, extension rights, right to market the property, ability to get re-zoned, etc.). For that privilege, you pay a premium, also known as an option consideration. You may give $1,000 to the owner just to get the option (which you have to record - hence the need for an attorney), but now you control that land for $1,000 rather than paying the $20,000 up front.

The $20K may even be above market price, but you got control cheaply and also other benefits (time, market, zoning appeals, etc.).

Now, the FIRST RIGHT OF REFUSAL is often a term that is used that is based upon action of the seller / owner of property. They are deciding to do something with the land (usually sell, sometimes rent or lease), and they have to give anyone with the rights of refusal notice that they have to react to their decision. For example, in Baltimore, if you sell a property with a tenant (or intend to), you must offer them the right to buy it first (first right of refusal).

You don't have control there of a property, or at least not as much as you would with an option. It is usually far cheaper, often free, but control is much better.

That's my answer, but as always get further advice - and feel free to come back and tell me if I got something wrong. I'm fine with that.

d) how do I know what to offer in either case for the buying price and the contract price (meaning to enter into option or first right of refusal)

e) any other suggestions on how to persuade a person to sell or handle the situation appreciated.

Thanks,

Dan

"Give her an offer she can't refuse." - to paraphrase The Godfather.

Make an above market offer for an option. See what happens. If it is worth $45K but you really want it, offer that. If she balks, up it and get the time benefit - say $50K anytime in the next 3-5 years (longer is better). Keep trying. Offer fair to "beyond fair" offers, as you really want it. The land is important to you - even express that if she shows emotional ties. You're their neighbor and will respect their intentions for it (if that suits you). That may work to your benefit.

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Thanks Jeff,

This will be my first "cold" approach to a party who has not expressed an interest in selling, though who knows? As there is no use, other than the memories of Mom and her friends getting stoned on the weekends, the property may have little value. Its tax burden is pretty low, I think less than $500 a year.

I will contact my realtor (very sharp and motivated couple) to let them know I am going to contact the lady and then call her during the evening this week.

I would strongly prefer an option, but would settle for a FROR. Biggest concern is control as you mentioned. If it sits vacant the rest of my days, I would be fine, but it would make a great guest cabin for relatives/friends and the lot is beautiful. Also, having almost nine continuous acres would give us a great buffer and the option of later building a small development if we wish as we are in an area that is targeted for annexation soon.

Columbia has overbuilt in the last couple years, and many rental houses are sitting vacant (this property is not a rental, just collateral info on the area) as new apartments and townhomes are lowering prices to increase occupancy. Recent boom (relatively) in residential building has really hurt the existing home and rental people.

I will let you know what develops, thanks for the info and your time.

Dan

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Lou Brown is a well-known RE investor / guru who now does a lot of speaking and selling his system for buying and selling real estate. He's respected as other "gurus" often use his stuff as a basis for their own niche.He seems like a solid guy, but now appears to do better as a speaker than as an investor, IMHO. Nothing against that, I mean, if he teaches you to do just one RE deal, you have paid for EVERYTHING he sells, so no big deal. Unfortunately, many never get up and do any of the RE stuff they allegedly learn.

I think this applies to almost any siminar about investing in any area. If it's so easy and there's so much money on the table, why aren't people doing rather then peddling what to do.
Agreed. They all have a "Make Millions" scheme. If they could make more money actually using their system than teaching it......

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See Blue Comments

I am not sure which guru would be best suited to answer this so it is open to all.

I'm pretty sure it's not me. :no:

I posted several times (to Jeff's delight I am sure, LOL) about buying a neighboring piece of property in mid-Missouri. We live just outside city limits and we have a bit over five acres, with a creek along the Southern border of our land. The land on the other side of the creek (3 acres) has a small one or two room octagonal house (about 500 square feet) that was built as an artist's retreat and a small screened in, well if kids played in it I would call it a clubhouse. It is appraised at $42,500 on the county assessor's website.

It has been in the same family for three generations and the most recent occupant was the grandson of the owner who married a woman with two school age children, so it obviously is not suited for them. It has been unoccupied for some months now.

I would like to buy it now or have the right to buy if they ever sell.

I have been reading about options and first right of refusal.

Questions

a) should I contact the mother of the most recent occupant, who controls the property and is a domineering woman

I know that I wouldn't want to, but if she runs the show, not contacting her to negotiate might kill the deal. If you have an "in with anyone in the family, approach them first to test the waters and ask basic questions. DO NOT give any monetary figures, just mention that it's empty, and you are interested. The VERY best thing that can come out of this is Mom comes to you. That's what you want. If you don't have a good "in" with any family members, then you must go to Mom. Or send a letter, but that would be tacky when you are talking about a Neighbor.

b) should a retain a realtor or attorney and have them contact the mother

Normally I might have said yes, use a Realtor if you are new. They SHOULD know how to avoid some basic pitfalls. You would have to pay the Realtor, and you ALWAYS have to pay a Realtor way more that the worth of their services (And remember My wife and I are Realtors, just being honest here) Let me qualify that: This is your Neighbor, you would surely pay a Realtor more than they are worth. You want to buy a Rental in another state, dear God find a Realtor that knows the market, they are worth their weight in gold. But this is your Backyard. I wouldn't put other people in the mix. Worst part about using someone else, is that you could end up in a Law suit for talking to Mom after you hire the Realtor, as the Realtor won't want you working the deal. Honestly, I doubt that would ever happen, but the Realtor isn't going to want you "messing" up the deal/ Costing her money. At least a Realtor will work at the sale, a Lawyer will send over some papers, and has no real vested interest in you getting the property.

All in all, Do it yourself. Keep us updated, we can help.

c) which do I want, an option or first right of refusal in this case (I am suspecting that the mother will not sell and once she dies, the kid will grab a cash offer)

Unless you get a right of Refusal in writing, it will be worthless. You don't often get one of those in writing. Seems simple to get, but it isn't. If the seller was smart, they would give them out like candy, they can't lose, but they don't. If you can't get it in writing, they aren't serious about the opportunity. A right of refusal is easy, and doesn't cost you a dime.

An Option is going to cost you out of pocket now. Say a Grand and the terms are all spelled out in every way. Generally when these happen, the seller absolutely wants to sell, and the buyer is dragging his feet. The seller takes as much money as needed to make them happy at leaving it off the market, and the seller has time to figure it out, be it reluctance or funding issues. It's also a move for the buyer to Sell the "paper", or sell his option for more than he paid to get it, never having to close, never taking the property into his name.

The advantage of an Option is that it is standard that all the details are worked out. Standardly in a Right of Refusal, nothing is worked out. So the Mom calls you up and says "Quarter of a Mill, take it or leave it" and your Right has just vanished. (Which is why Sellers should hand them out like candy) You aren't paying that, and Mom lists it in the MLS for a week at $250K, and then drops it to whatever is reasonable.

IF THEY WON'T SELL NOW, who knows, maybe it's Jr's place after he gets out of College this spring, or it's the Family vacation spot, or who knows? Ideally, you want something that says you give up a SMALL amount of money, and get a fixed price that you can enact within the next few years.

d) how do I know what to offer in either case for the buying price and the contract price (meaning to enter into option or first right of refusal)

In Indiana, the Tax value is a complete Joke. I have many Properties Valued way too low for taxes, and about as many valued way too high. I go down and appeal all the time, the whole process of the Assessor actually knowing the value is a Joke. I can't tell you how many houses are valued at $100K that no one would give $40K for. I have a Property that Grosses $1,050.00 a month that is Valued by the assessor at $28.6K. The whole process is a Joke.

If I understand correctly, the structure on the property is a tear down? If that is the case, then it comes down to what the going rate for "recreational" land is in your area. In my area, "Recreational" land is climbing, and getting close to the price per acre of Farm land. LOTS of Deer hunters here want their own land to hunt on so the prices have started to climb. Recreational Land used to be dirt cheap, because it wasn't established Farm land.

Call a Local RE Agent/Broker and ask what the going price per Acre on Recreational Land is. Just lie to them and say you are looking to sell non Farm land. You have land of your own, so you can play this up easily. Don't let them waste your time (RE Agents are weasels - Remember, I am one) just get your info, and blow them off.

My Wife has a Client looking for Hunting land. As of a few weeks ago, Recreational land was going for about $3,600 an Acre around here. Now that would go up if you had water access, etc......

I guess that what I am saying is that MY EXPERIENCE says that Tax values are WORTHLESS, do your research.

At the end of the day, the very best thing you could do as I stated above is float your desire to buy to a Family member you know, and let Mom contact you with a price. At least you know what they are thinking then. UNLESS you know that the structure has Sentimental Value or some such thing to them (For all I know that's where The Great Grandparents conceived Grandma??), ALWAYS refer to the structure as a Tear down. You want them to understand that you won't use the structure, you are only buying the land. It's a tear down.

OK, know that I have said all that.

What is the land worth to you as the Neighbor?? What if they put up a Walmart there? SERIOUSLY, if you want it, and you have the means, give them an offer they can't say know to. Just get it.

Here, I'll try one for you: I'll give you Shaun Alexander for Kellen Winslow II. You know you are taking that. Maybe Winslow is just worth it to me. Who cares, but I know I am getting Winslow.

Is that land worth it to you? If the answer is an overwhelming YES, they just get it, whatever it takes (Within reason). You will ALWAYS, ALWAYS regret not buying it. 10 years from now you will seriously look back and wished you had offered twice as much.

Speaking from serious experience here. If you have to have it, and you don't get it, it will HAUNT you forever......

e) any other suggestions on how to persuade a person to sell or handle the situation appreciated.

You you really want it, I am serious here, offer more than it is worth. You can spend the next 30 years pissed off at the new Neighbor who did buy it and now runs a Motor Speedway every Wednesday, Friday, and Saturday night. If only you bought it back when it was only $XXXXXX. It's worth twice that now, you would have made money on it, but no, you had to save a few grand, and now it sucks more than you ever thought it could.

Remember, speaking from experience here......

Don't be an idiot here. However, if you want to play hard ball, then go in with the price of Recreational land, adjust BIG if there is water. The Structure is a Tear Down, don't say it any other way. Play up that you are a Neighbor, committing to keep the land free of development, Just the way Grand dad wanted, whatever. (You can always sell everything to a Super K-Mart down the road, Better yet, use all the property you own when you are in your 60s to build your own Housing Development and then travel the world on the profits from "RedZone Acres - The Swankest place in town to live - Prices starting at a Half Million". Just say the right things now to pull at the heart strings)

Honest Advice? Pay what it takes to get it. You will regret it forever if you don't. Sorry to say it that way, but Man, am I ever preaching the gospel here. If you want to trust some random guy on the Internet who doesn't know you from Adam, and viceaversa, Seriously, just get it, it will haunt you for the rest of your life.......

Thanks,

Dan

Hope that helps?

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Lou Brown is a well-known RE investor / guru who now does a lot of speaking and selling his system for buying and selling real estate. He's respected as other "gurus" often use his stuff as a basis for their own niche.He seems like a solid guy, but now appears to do better as a speaker than as an investor, IMHO. Nothing against that, I mean, if he teaches you to do just one RE deal, you have paid for EVERYTHING he sells, so no big deal. Unfortunately, many never get up and do any of the RE stuff they allegedly learn.

I think this applies to almost any siminar about investing in any area. If it's so easy and there's so much money on the table, why aren't people doing rather then peddling what to do.
Agreed. They all have a "Make Millions" scheme. If they could make more money actually using their system than teaching it......
In actuality, some of the gurus are selling good information. Real estate is actually something you can recoup your costs in a seminar that costs thousands of dollars in just one good deal. I've paid thousands for a weekend seminar that paid for itself and then some - just because it was solid info that I can't get elsewhere.Sometimes paying to learn from someone is worth it, as you can make tons more down the road. This sounds like college (and it is a learning method), but it really goes back to true apprenticeship. You used to pay a master blacksmith or something $ to become a blacksmith, and the cost of learning (either in time, money, work, or a combination) repaid itself over time.Now I won't defend ANY and EVERY speaker - that's ridiculous. However, if you buy a Real Estate course from someone or even spend $10,000 to learn how to really make way more, that's a solid investment in my book.(and no my course / seminar is not available at this time :ph34r: )

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I'm looking to buy at possibly buing a HUD home. I'll need an agent to get me in the house and then make the bid. How are the agents fees paid in this scenario. Can I negotiate with him and what are standard fees for this type of scenario. I would be an owner occupant. Can I have a fee structure if we buy a house through a blind bid vs a more traditional buying process. Thanks.

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I'm looking to buy at possibly buing a HUD home. I'll need an agent to get me in the house and then make the bid. How are the agents fees paid in this scenario. Can I negotiate with him and what are standard fees for this type of scenario. I would be an owner occupant. Can I have a fee structure if we buy a house through a blind bid vs a more traditional buying process. Thanks.

When I bought my HUD house the commission was set up 5% buyers agent, 1% HUD agent. My agent dropped her commission to 4% which ended up being the difference in me getting the house vs a slightly higher bidder.

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I'm looking to buy at possibly buing a HUD home. I'll need an agent to get me in the house and then make the bid. How are the agents fees paid in this scenario. Can I negotiate with him and what are standard fees for this type of scenario. I would be an owner occupant. Can I have a fee structure if we buy a house through a blind bid vs a more traditional buying process. Thanks.

When I bought my HUD house the commission was set up 5% buyers agent, 1% HUD agent. My agent dropped her commission to 4% which ended up being the difference in me getting the house vs a slightly higher bidder.
So on a $180,000 HUD owned home, I could be looking at a reduction in the net bid of $9,000? That seems high to me. I was thinking if I go through a traditional format, the agents split 6%. 3% of $180K is $5400. I was thinking of offering him 4-5K to open the house up and do the paperwork, which still seems high. I am cheap though and this 5% deal might be common. I also hoping to get about $2700 back for closing costs.

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I'm looking to buy at possibly buing a HUD home. I'll need an agent to get me in the house and then make the bid. How are the agents fees paid in this scenario. Can I negotiate with him and what are standard fees for this type of scenario. I would be an owner occupant. Can I have a fee structure if we buy a house through a blind bid vs a more traditional buying process. Thanks.

When I bought my HUD house the commission was set up 5% buyers agent, 1% HUD agent. My agent dropped her commission to 4% which ended up being the difference in me getting the house vs a slightly higher bidder.
So on a $180,000 HUD owned home, I could be looking at a reduction in the net bid of $9,000? That seems high to me. I was thinking if I go through a traditional format, the agents split 6%. 3% of $180K is $5400. I was thinking of offering him 4-5K to open the house up and do the paperwork, which still seems high. I am cheap though and this 5% deal might be common. I also hoping to get about $2700 back for closing costs.
The thing to know about a HUD home is the winning bid will be the best NET not Gross. I got my teeth kicked in a few times before I realized this.If you want to win, and you want Closing Costs, you need to Up your bid to cover those closing costs (If you think there is any competition.You bid $180K and want $3K back in closing, I will beat you with my $177.2K bid. Your bid might need to be $183K to beat me if you need closing costs. I'm not saying overbid by $100K, but understand that the best off is the Highest Net, followed by the Cleanest offer.Where I got my teeth kicked in is that I was using an agent, and keep getting beat even with my much higher GROSS offer. What I came to find out is that I was bidding against Realtor buyers who were waiving their commission all together. I worked my Agent down to 2.5% with the thought that something is better than nothing, and won my next one.From what I understand, the Buying Realtor sets their own commission here, it is not set by the Government. Even 1% above the next guys Realtor in Commission can clobber you when you are talking big prices.

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I'm looking to buy at possibly buing a HUD home. I'll need an agent to get me in the house and then make the bid. How are the agents fees paid in this scenario. Can I negotiate with him and what are standard fees for this type of scenario. I would be an owner occupant. Can I have a fee structure if we buy a house through a blind bid vs a more traditional buying process. Thanks.

When I bought my HUD house the commission was set up 5% buyers agent, 1% HUD agent. My agent dropped her commission to 4% which ended up being the difference in me getting the house vs a slightly higher bidder.
So on a $180,000 HUD owned home, I could be looking at a reduction in the net bid of $9,000? That seems high to me. I was thinking if I go through a traditional format, the agents split 6%. 3% of $180K is $5400. I was thinking of offering him 4-5K to open the house up and do the paperwork, which still seems high. I am cheap though and this 5% deal might be common. I also hoping to get about $2700 back for closing costs.
The thing to know about a HUD home is the winning bid will be the best NET not Gross. I got my teeth kicked in a few times before I realized this.

If you want to win, and you want Closing Costs, you need to Up your bid to cover those closing costs (If you think there is any competition.

You bid $180K and want $3K back in closing, I will beat you with my $177.2K bid. Your bid might need to be $183K to beat me if you need closing costs. I'm not saying overbid by $100K, but understand that the best off is the Highest Net, followed by the Cleanest offer.

Where I got my teeth kicked in is that I was using an agent, and keep getting beat even with my much higher GROSS offer. What I came to find out is that I was bidding against Realtor buyers who were waiving their commission all together. I worked my Agent down to 2.5% with the thought that something is better than nothing, and won my next one.

From what I understand, the Buying Realtor sets their own commission here, it is not set by the Government. Even 1% above the next guys Realtor in Commission can clobber you when you are talking big prices.

Thanks for the info Random and Mike. Here is the house I'm looking at: link Bid results for winning bids in the area over the past month put the estimated net at anywhere from 88 to 93% of the list price. If we go on the high end at 93%, at 183K the net bid should be in the neighboorhood of 171K. 5K for the realator and $2700 towards closing costs puts me just under 179K. Does that sound reasonable? If my wife loves the house I may go a bit higher, It seems silly to argue over 2K. According to property records for Arapahoe county, the home had a tax assesment of 222K. Other houses within 2 blocks are selling for between 215K and 230K.

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I'm looking to buy at possibly buing a HUD home. I'll need an agent to get me in the house and then make the bid. How are the agents fees paid in this scenario. Can I negotiate with him and what are standard fees for this type of scenario. I would be an owner occupant. Can I have a fee structure if we buy a house through a blind bid vs a more traditional buying process. Thanks.

When I bought my HUD house the commission was set up 5% buyers agent, 1% HUD agent. My agent dropped her commission to 4% which ended up being the difference in me getting the house vs a slightly higher bidder.
So on a $180,000 HUD owned home, I could be looking at a reduction in the net bid of $9,000? That seems high to me. I was thinking if I go through a traditional format, the agents split 6%. 3% of $180K is $5400. I was thinking of offering him 4-5K to open the house up and do the paperwork, which still seems high. I am cheap though and this 5% deal might be common. I also hoping to get about $2700 back for closing costs.
The thing to know about a HUD home is the winning bid will be the best NET not Gross. I got my teeth kicked in a few times before I realized this.

If you want to win, and you want Closing Costs, you need to Up your bid to cover those closing costs (If you think there is any competition.

You bid $180K and want $3K back in closing, I will beat you with my $177.2K bid. Your bid might need to be $183K to beat me if you need closing costs. I'm not saying overbid by $100K, but understand that the best off is the Highest Net, followed by the Cleanest offer.

Where I got my teeth kicked in is that I was using an agent, and keep getting beat even with my much higher GROSS offer. What I came to find out is that I was bidding against Realtor buyers who were waiving their commission all together. I worked my Agent down to 2.5% with the thought that something is better than nothing, and won my next one.

From what I understand, the Buying Realtor sets their own commission here, it is not set by the Government. Even 1% above the next guys Realtor in Commission can clobber you when you are talking big prices.

Thanks for the info Random and Mike. Here is the house I'm looking at: link Bid results for winning bids in the area over the past month put the estimated net at anywhere from 88 to 93% of the list price. If we go on the high end at 93%, at 183K the net bid should be in the neighboorhood of 171K. 5K for the realator and $2700 towards closing costs puts me just under 179K. Does that sound reasonable? If my wife loves the house I may go a bit higher, It seems silly to argue over 2K. According to property records for Arapahoe county, the home had a tax assesment of 222K. Other houses within 2 blocks are selling for between 215K and 230K.
You know your Market, and have done the research. I am reluctant to give you advice on what you should pay, as I don't know your market.

What I will say is that if this is your Wife's DREAM HOUSE, what is it worth to not have her bring up this house for the next 20 years of your marriage? If she wants this house in every way, is it worth a few grand to come out a hero instead of a heel? Something to consider.

There are certainly times that I would advise someone to just get it, pay over what it is worth. This MIGHT??? be one of those times. You know your wife.

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Bid submitted today. I'll let you know next week. Thanks again.

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I'm looking to buy at possibly buing a HUD home. I'll need an agent to get me in the house and then make the bid. How are the agents fees paid in this scenario. Can I negotiate with him and what are standard fees for this type of scenario. I would be an owner occupant. Can I have a fee structure if we buy a house through a blind bid vs a more traditional buying process. Thanks.

When I bought my HUD house the commission was set up 5% buyers agent, 1% HUD agent. My agent dropped her commission to 4% which ended up being the difference in me getting the house vs a slightly higher bidder.
So on a $180,000 HUD owned home, I could be looking at a reduction in the net bid of $9,000? That seems high to me. I was thinking if I go through a traditional format, the agents split 6%. 3% of $180K is $5400. I was thinking of offering him 4-5K to open the house up and do the paperwork, which still seems high. I am cheap though and this 5% deal might be common. I also hoping to get about $2700 back for closing costs.
The thing to know about a HUD home is the winning bid will be the best NET not Gross. I got my teeth kicked in a few times before I realized this.

If you want to win, and you want Closing Costs, you need to Up your bid to cover those closing costs (If you think there is any competition.

You bid $180K and want $3K back in closing, I will beat you with my $177.2K bid. Your bid might need to be $183K to beat me if you need closing costs. I'm not saying overbid by $100K, but understand that the best off is the Highest Net, followed by the Cleanest offer.

Where I got my teeth kicked in is that I was using an agent, and keep getting beat even with my much higher GROSS offer. What I came to find out is that I was bidding against Realtor buyers who were waiving their commission all together. I worked my Agent down to 2.5% with the thought that something is better than nothing, and won my next one.

From what I understand, the Buying Realtor sets their own commission here, it is not set by the Government. Even 1% above the next guys Realtor in Commission can clobber you when you are talking big prices.

Thanks for the info Random and Mike. Here is the house I'm looking at: link Bid results for winning bids in the area over the past month put the estimated net at anywhere from 88 to 93% of the list price. If we go on the high end at 93%, at 183K the net bid should be in the neighboorhood of 171K. 5K for the realator and $2700 towards closing costs puts me just under 179K. Does that sound reasonable? If my wife loves the house I may go a bit higher, It seems silly to argue over 2K. According to property records for Arapahoe county, the home had a tax assesment of 222K. Other houses within 2 blocks are selling for between 215K and 230K.
You know your Market, and have done the research. I am reluctant to give you advice on what you should pay, as I don't know your market.

What I will say is that if this is your Wife's DREAM HOUSE, what is it worth to not have her bring up this house for the next 20 years of your marriage? If she wants this house in every way, is it worth a few grand to come out a hero instead of a heel? Something to consider.

There are certainly times that I would advise someone to just get it, pay over what it is worth. This MIGHT??? be one of those times. You know your wife.

:goodposting:

I meant to say this the first time I read it.

Primary residence purchases are FAR different.

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Bid submitted today. I'll let you know next week. Thanks again.

On Monday we found out that we were out bid on the net by almost $9000. The bidder was a real estate agent, so there was no commision at all. This afternoon, we got a call that the 1st bidder fell through and our offer was the 1st back up. We send our contract in for final approval tommorow. We are pumped!

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Okay, I want to get purchase the first of several multi family properties in my area. These are three units apiece and are running between 300-350. The rents on these would be about 3500-4k depending on the rooms, size, etc so they pass the 1% check. But I’d like to just start with one. So, if I didn’t have the first 10 or 20% ($30-$70k), how would I start getting into one of these? For the purpose of this exercise, lets say that I have 100k in equity in my primary residence that I would not like to touch. I would also be renting out this entire property. Our credit is great (no, it really is), but our ratios are slightly high at 30% and about 40%. What should I expect for an interest rate on this as well? 30yr fixeds are going at about 6% with no points around here. Of course, that’s for primaries too. I believe I/Os are going for 6.25-6.5 as well.

Second question about those standard ratios. I am assuming that the lower one is PITI on the mortgage, over gross salary. Is that correct? If its simply PI, then that’s even better and probably along the 28% where we need to be. That would also bring down that 40% into somewhere around the 38% as well.

So how would I collect enough for a down payment at 10/20%?

And btw, great thread.

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Okay, I want to get purchase the first of several multi family properties in my area. These are three units apiece and are running between 300-350. The rents on these would be about 3500-4k depending on the rooms, size, etc so they pass the 1% check. But I’d like to just start with one. So, if I didn’t have the first 10 or 20% ($30-$70k), how would I start getting into one of these? For the purpose of this exercise, lets say that I have 100k in equity in my primary residence that I would not like to touch. I would also be renting out this entire property. Our credit is great (no, it really is), but our ratios are slightly high at 30% and about 40%. What should I expect for an interest rate on this as well? 30yr fixeds are going at about 6% with no points around here. Of course, that’s for primaries too. I believe I/Os are going for 6.25-6.5 as well. Second question about those standard ratios. I am assuming that the lower one is PITI on the mortgage, over gross salary. Is that correct? If its simply PI, then that’s even better and probably along the 28% where we need to be. That would also bring down that 40% into somewhere around the 38% as well. So how would I collect enough for a down payment at 10/20%? And btw, great thread.

Dave,Thanks for the comments on the thread.What you're asking here is more of a creative financing application (where to get the $ down).I've mentored a few people on how to do this, but it is much more complicated to try and do a no-money down deal, regardless of what the late night tv gurus say. The deals are out there, but they are much harder to structure than a typical "20% down" deal which virtually any lender can do.Let me know (via PM if need be) where you are from and maybe I can help you out. I've learned over the 8-9 years of my investing that putting creative deal structures to print is a disservice to everyone - few understand it, many question the validity and/or legality, and it really doesn't do much to encourage anyone. It also discourages / frustrates many, including the one trying to explain the technique(s). They are (usually) more complicated to put together, but they are not impossible. It sounds like you're an excellent candidate for a local lender or a private investor, but you need some guidance to get off the ground. That's fine, we all have to start somewhere.Welcome to the thread. :thumbup:

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Okay, here's one for you, Jeff. I bought a rather unique 4-plex in a small town where I grew up (St. Joseph, MO). Long story short : It's in an older part of town and one of my friends used to live there, so I knew some history on it. Bought it really cheap, did some improvements (mostly converting over the utilities from master meters to individual tenant meters), and I've got a nice chunk of change in equity waiting to be cashed in (probably 100k, top end).

I'd like to roll that money into a new investment, as the return I'm currently getting in rent $$ is good for my original investment, but not that good when considering the real value of the place. What would you recommend?

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Bid submitted today. I'll let you know next week. Thanks again.

On Monday we found out that we were out bid on the net by almost $9000. The bidder was a real estate agent, so there was no commision at all. This afternoon, we got a call that the 1st bidder fell through and our offer was the 1st back up. We send our contract in for final approval tommorow. We are pumped!
Like I said before, those Agents KILL you on the net. They don't have to add in that cost. We JUST (Within the last 2-3 weeks) lost one ourselves where the Gross was dominating, and the Net wasn't the winner. Agent bidders can snap up HUDs all day long. You have to work your Agents commission down to rock bottom to compete.

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Okay, I want to get purchase the first of several multi family properties in my area. These are three units apiece and are running between 300-350. The rents on these would be about 3500-4k depending on the rooms, size, etc so they pass the 1% check. But I’d like to just start with one. So, if I didn’t have the first 10 or 20% ($30-$70k), how would I start getting into one of these? For the purpose of this exercise, lets say that I have 100k in equity in my primary residence that I would not like to touch. I would also be renting out this entire property. Our credit is great (no, it really is), but our ratios are slightly high at 30% and about 40%. What should I expect for an interest rate on this as well? 30yr fixeds are going at about 6% with no points around here. Of course, that’s for primaries too. I believe I/Os are going for 6.25-6.5 as well. Second question about those standard ratios. I am assuming that the lower one is PITI on the mortgage, over gross salary. Is that correct? If its simply PI, then that’s even better and probably along the 28% where we need to be. That would also bring down that 40% into somewhere around the 38% as well. So how would I collect enough for a down payment at 10/20%? And btw, great thread.

Dave, first understand that you have asked the Holy Grail question. The one question EVERYONE asks. It's like asking "I'm thinking about going for a drive, How do I build a car?" There are tons of Different answers.Given that your 20% down is about $60K, I can reasonable assume you will have to be creative to do that three or more times to buy your buildings.So,with that in mind, my real answer to you is there are lots of ways. Some illegal. Some are within the law, but have the opportunity for fraud so the more conservative investors just call them Fraud when they actually are not. Some might just seem fishy, but are accepted norms.This topic has been beat up in this thread and posters here come down all over the fence. I am creative, and push the envelope, but never want to be in a spot where my actions risk the financial well being of my family. Never-evah! However Real Estate investors break the law every day, and no one ever gets caught. I guess what I am saying is that it is a land-mine, and a good local broker/loan officer will be worth their weight in gold.That and check your PMs.

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Okay, here's one for you, Jeff. I bought a rather unique 4-plex in a small town where I grew up (St. Joseph, MO). Long story short : It's in an older part of town and one of my friends used to live there, so I knew some history on it. Bought it really cheap, did some improvements (mostly converting over the utilities from master meters to individual tenant meters), and I've got a nice chunk of change in equity waiting to be cashed in (probably 100k, top end).I'd like to roll that money into a new investment, as the return I'm currently getting in rent $$ is good for my original investment, but not that good when considering the real value of the place. What would you recommend?

Do you live in St Joseph now? Are you Close in proximity/have trusted family/friends in your hometown? If not, can you buy a money making property in your Local Market?Those are important to any answer I might give.

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Okay, here's one for you, Jeff. I bought a rather unique 4-plex in a small town where I grew up (St. Joseph, MO). Long story short : It's in an older part of town and one of my friends used to live there, so I knew some history on it. Bought it really cheap, did some improvements (mostly converting over the utilities from master meters to individual tenant meters), and I've got a nice chunk of change in equity waiting to be cashed in (probably 100k, top end).I'd like to roll that money into a new investment, as the return I'm currently getting in rent $$ is good for my original investment, but not that good when considering the real value of the place. What would you recommend?

Do you live in St Joseph now? Are you Close in proximity/have trusted family/friends in your hometown? If not, can you buy a money making property in your Local Market?Those are important to any answer I might give.
I live a little over an hour from St. Joseph right now, and I frequently go up there on weekends for various reasons to do w/ the 4-plex. I have family and friends there, and my dad acts as the property mgr for the day-to-day needs. I could buy a money making property closer to where I live, but real estate prices are substantially higher around here than they are in St. Joseph (I live in Olathe, KS, a suburb in Kansas City).

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Okay, here's one for you, Jeff. I bought a rather unique 4-plex in a small town where I grew up (St. Joseph, MO). Long story short : It's in an older part of town and one of my friends used to live there, so I knew some history on it. Bought it really cheap, did some improvements (mostly converting over the utilities from master meters to individual tenant meters), and I've got a nice chunk of change in equity waiting to be cashed in (probably 100k, top end).I'd like to roll that money into a new investment, as the return I'm currently getting in rent $$ is good for my original investment, but not that good when considering the real value of the place. What would you recommend?

Do you live in St Joseph now? Are you Close in proximity/have trusted family/friends in your hometown? If not, can you buy a money making property in your Local Market?Those are important to any answer I might give.
I live a little over an hour from St. Joseph right now, and I frequently go up there on weekends for various reasons to do w/ the 4-plex. I have family and friends there, and my dad acts as the property mgr for the day-to-day needs. I could buy a money making property closer to where I live, but real estate prices are substantially higher around here than they are in St. Joseph (I live in Olathe, KS, a suburb in Kansas City).
I will come back to this soon, but some thoughts off the top of my head:Why is your return somehow worse when compared to Market Value? Can you get a better money maker starting over? I can see rolling it into 2 Multi Family properties or a small complex. But would buying a like property where you pay a Realtor, closing cost, etc be worth it? I guess what I am saying is that if the Return is very good, what about just using some of the equity to buy another Multi, keep the first place, and just have less of a return on that one that is off set by the greater return on the new one. I don't understand throwing away a winner.Have you thought about raising the rents? What is the structure of your rental agreements? Are you under market? Surely you aren't rent controled in the sane middle of the country.You can write off about every aspect of your return home trips. Hopefully you are taking advantage of that. Mileage, Gas, food, basically every cent you spend at home.Is your Dad willing to continue as the PM if the work load was increased?Do me a favor and post say 5 of the Zip codes you are considering. I'll look through them and see if anything stands out.Any thoughts on Commercial?

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I will come back to this soon, but some thoughts off the top of my head:Why is your return somehow worse when compared to Market Value? Can you get a better money maker starting over? I can see rolling it into 2 Multi Family properties or a small complex. But would buying a like property where you pay a Realtor, closing cost, etc be worth it? I guess what I am saying is that if the Return is very good, what about just using some of the equity to buy another Multi, keep the first place, and just have less of a return on that one that is off set by the greater return on the new one. I don't understand throwing away a winner.Have you thought about raising the rents? What is the structure of your rental agreements? Are you under market? Surely you aren't rent controled in the sane middle of the country.

The return that I'm getting based on the original price is over 20%. If someone were to buy this at market value, it would be a more "normal" return for rental property, in the mid-single digits (this is strictly based off cash flows and expenses, not considering the tax benefits). Based on the profit I'd have by selling it, I believe there's opportunities to gain a higher return than what I'm currently getting. And I tend to agree with you that buying a like property doesn't make much sense, as I'm just transferring that equity to a different property and paying closing costs to do it. I'm also a little hesitant to just use that equity to buy another multi, because I'm not confident that I can find this good of a deal again. And other landlords that I've spoken with have enough of a "cushion" built up in savings that they could handle a long period where units weren't rented and/or needed major repairs -- I really don't want to get in a position where things are just barely in the black and I'm worried about paying the bills each month, let alone having to pour cash into the places. We raised our rents earlier this year to get more in line with the market, and we've transferred the utilities to the tenants. We aren't in a rent-controlled area, but there's not much room to further increase rents, either.

You can write off about every aspect of your return home trips. Hopefully you are taking advantage of that. Mileage, Gas, food, basically every cent you spend at home.Is your Dad willing to continue as the PM if the work load was increased?

Oh yeah, I'm logging and writing off everything that I can. And yes, my dad is willing to continue as the PM if the work load increased.

Do me a favor and post say 5 of the Zip codes you are considering. I'll look through them and see if anything stands out.Any thoughts on Commercial?

I've thought about commercial, but I don't know as much about it as I do residential. What are the differences between the two, and what kind of pitfalls do I need to consider? The zip codes where I'd be most likely to invest are : 64501, 64503, 64079, 66061 and 66212. Thanks for the input. :confused:

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Anyone work in Central Mass, around Framingham, Worcester, Maynard?

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