munga30
Checkin' my email
I'm thinking about playing cash games sometime during that stretch.
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Assani's Poker Thread (4 Viewers)
- Thread starter Assani Fisher
- Start date
The Ref
Footballguy
Yeah - you won there last year (or was it this past Fall) if I remember right.I'm thinking about heading down myself.
Alias
Footballguy
This kills me, that is what I pay for a 500 s.f. 1-bedroom.
Cavalier
Footballguy
You guys renting or buying. The Vegas housing market is in shambles, I would think you could find some kick butt deals.
fasteddie_21
2006 NM Poker Champ
Lol @ John. Isn't NYC great? 
And we're renting for the 1st year...from everything I'm reading people are saying that the market should be ideal to buy in @ 1 year from now, so should be good!
And we're renting for the 1st year...from everything I'm reading people are saying that the market should be ideal to buy in @ 1 year from now, so should be good!
Assani Fisher
Footballguy
Wow, so been a while since I updated. After the $6300 loss I had 2 or 3 bad sessions in a row...nothing horrible, but lost around $1000 each time. I think I was partying it up a bit too much. Two young Swedish pros were in town at the Wynn, became friends with them, and we started drinking a lot most nights and "gambling it up." But I did regroup and have had a few winning sessions the past few days. Overall, since my last update I'm up about $3000 so its good news. And its much nicer now that I'm friends with a lot of the people I'm playing with everyday....just makes going there more fun imo. Anyway, a few hands from the past few days that stick out to me.....
Hand of the Day #1
Villian is a black jack pro, so hes obviously a smart guy....from what I've heard him and his team absolutely crush many of the casinos on a regular basis. As a poker player, havn't really seen a lot from him. He has around $1300 or so, I have him covered.
He limps in EP, I raise to $50 with QQ, everyone else folds, he calls.
Flop comes AQ8. He checks, I bet $90, he calls.
Turn is a 5, he checks, I bet $220, he calls.
River is a 9, he bets $690, he has about $250 left. Your move.
What I did
I did the worst possible thing and went all in. He called. He had TJ for the nuts.
What I think I should've done
Going all in was obviously not the correct play. Its pretty easy to think through the hand and realize that hes representing TJ, flopping the double gutter and hitting it on the river. I mean, I guess 88 is possible too although I think he probably check raises the turn. A9 doesn't seem likely considering that hes a good player. I think the best play is to fold here, although I can see the argument for a call.
The next two hands involve Kay. Kay is an old lady who is a regular in the $5/10 games there. Shes not horrible, but shes a losing player at $5/10 for sure imo. She calls off too much, she bet sizes poorly. Basically I like it when shes at the table. She buys in deep too....probably for around $7000 or so. I always have her covered. To give you one example of a hand she was in, she limped from LP with an ace, flop came TTT, turn blank, river ace, and she paid off a guy in the SB over $3000 on the river when imo it was completely obvious that he had the ten(and even if not shes only playing for a chop). She was in one of my previous hands of the day here:
Flop comes A86 all diamonds. She checks, I bet $120, she calls.
Turn is another 6 obviously non diamond. She checks. I bet $320, she calls.
River is a complete blank...something like a 2 non diamond. She checks. Your move.
What I did
I bet $930, she called. She had AQ with the queen of diamonds. I won.
What I think I should've done
While she does underbet some big hands, I don't think she plays scared poker, so I don't think she would've just called the flop and turn with a hand better than AK. To be honest, I was almost certain that she either had AQ, AJ, AT, and/or the king of diamonds. I bet higher than normal because of what I had seen with the quad tens hand earlier. I like my play here. Some afterwards were surprised that I had such little yet still bet the river(and they commented on it), but I think it was a good play for sure.
Hand of the Day #3
UTG is new to the table and I had never played with him before. He has around $1500 or so. He raises to $40 UTG.
MP is Erol, a Candian kid who had been playing the past few days. Decent player, not great . He had about $4000. He calls the $40.
One other caller in MP/LP.
Kay calls the $40 on the button.
Everyone else folds to me in the BB. I have JJ. I raise to $200.
UTG, Erol, and Kay all call!
Flop comes A56 rainbow. I check, UTG checks, Erol checks, Kay bets $90. What is your move and what is your plan of action for the rest of the hand.
What I did
I called, UTG called, Erol called.
Turn was a ten of spades, putting two spades on board. All 4 of us check.
River is a 5. All four of us check. I show JJ, UTG shows 77, Erol shows 89 of spades, Kay shows 67. I win the hand.
What I think I should've done
Kay had previously made one of these ultra small bets, I took it for weakness and raised her big with air, and she called me down....so I didn't like raising the flop with her there. I can't fold for $90 though...just the chance of hitting the set and getting paid potentially big is worth it there. Obviously I got lucky to dodge a bunch of cards on the river, but I think I played it well. Such a strange spot though.
Hand of the Day #4
Villian in the hand is Ted Lawson. Wasn't really sure what to think of his play before this hand. He had made a lot of standard LP raises preflop, usually pretty small. Overall I'm not going to give cash game respect to someone just because they've done well in tournaments though. We were both deep, I had him covered I think but it really never matted. Since he was two to my right, he had raised my blinds a few times and we had played some hands together....nothing big though, but I did flop a set once and win a nice little pot off him....If anything, he probably thought that I was more than willing to stand up to him as I had played back at him quite a few times(although I actually did have cards every time).
Folded to him on the button, he min raises to $20(WTF???). I had 27 of spades, I call.
Flop comes 279 with two diamonds. I check, he bets $30, I raise to $90, he reraises to $260. Whats your move here and whats your plan of action when you act first on the turn?
What I did
I flat called and checked the turn which was a 5 non diamond.
He then bet $360. Whats your move and whats your plan for the rest of the hand?
What I did
I called.
River was a ten non diamond. I check, he bet $300(such strange bet sizing). I called. He showed AA, I won.
What I think I should've done
I can't see an argument for playing the had any more aggressive than I did. I could see perhaps betting out $600 on the river, as I could fear an overpair checking(which he definitely should've done imo) and it may look like a missed draw. I can also see an argument for folding to the 3rd flop raise or on the turn...hes definitely playing it strongly. But overall I think I played it well(and I think his play here was horrendous). Thoughts?
Hand of the Day #1
Villian is a black jack pro, so hes obviously a smart guy....from what I've heard him and his team absolutely crush many of the casinos on a regular basis. As a poker player, havn't really seen a lot from him. He has around $1300 or so, I have him covered.
He limps in EP, I raise to $50 with QQ, everyone else folds, he calls.
Flop comes AQ8. He checks, I bet $90, he calls.
Turn is a 5, he checks, I bet $220, he calls.
River is a 9, he bets $690, he has about $250 left. Your move.
What I did
I did the worst possible thing and went all in. He called. He had TJ for the nuts.
What I think I should've done
Going all in was obviously not the correct play. Its pretty easy to think through the hand and realize that hes representing TJ, flopping the double gutter and hitting it on the river. I mean, I guess 88 is possible too although I think he probably check raises the turn. A9 doesn't seem likely considering that hes a good player. I think the best play is to fold here, although I can see the argument for a call.
The next two hands involve Kay. Kay is an old lady who is a regular in the $5/10 games there. Shes not horrible, but shes a losing player at $5/10 for sure imo. She calls off too much, she bet sizes poorly. Basically I like it when shes at the table. She buys in deep too....probably for around $7000 or so. I always have her covered. To give you one example of a hand she was in, she limped from LP with an ace, flop came TTT, turn blank, river ace, and she paid off a guy in the SB over $3000 on the river when imo it was completely obvious that he had the ten(and even if not shes only playing for a chop). She was in one of my previous hands of the day here:
Hand of the Day #2In both of these hands, I had been fairly aggressive with raising preflop so far this session and I think that in general people that play regularly think of me as a pretty LAG player....if the game is just regulars and no fish then I'm often the most aggressive at the table. Kay limps in EP. Maybe another limper or two, I forget. I have AK in MP and raise to $70, everyone else folds, Kay calls.
Flop comes A86 all diamonds. She checks, I bet $120, she calls.
Turn is another 6 obviously non diamond. She checks. I bet $320, she calls.
River is a complete blank...something like a 2 non diamond. She checks. Your move.
What I did
I bet $930, she called. She had AQ with the queen of diamonds. I won.
What I think I should've done
While she does underbet some big hands, I don't think she plays scared poker, so I don't think she would've just called the flop and turn with a hand better than AK. To be honest, I was almost certain that she either had AQ, AJ, AT, and/or the king of diamonds. I bet higher than normal because of what I had seen with the quad tens hand earlier. I like my play here. Some afterwards were surprised that I had such little yet still bet the river(and they commented on it), but I think it was a good play for sure.
Hand of the Day #3
UTG is new to the table and I had never played with him before. He has around $1500 or so. He raises to $40 UTG.
MP is Erol, a Candian kid who had been playing the past few days. Decent player, not great . He had about $4000. He calls the $40.
One other caller in MP/LP.
Kay calls the $40 on the button.
Everyone else folds to me in the BB. I have JJ. I raise to $200.
UTG, Erol, and Kay all call!
Flop comes A56 rainbow. I check, UTG checks, Erol checks, Kay bets $90. What is your move and what is your plan of action for the rest of the hand.
What I did
I called, UTG called, Erol called.
Turn was a ten of spades, putting two spades on board. All 4 of us check.
River is a 5. All four of us check. I show JJ, UTG shows 77, Erol shows 89 of spades, Kay shows 67. I win the hand.
What I think I should've done
Kay had previously made one of these ultra small bets, I took it for weakness and raised her big with air, and she called me down....so I didn't like raising the flop with her there. I can't fold for $90 though...just the chance of hitting the set and getting paid potentially big is worth it there. Obviously I got lucky to dodge a bunch of cards on the river, but I think I played it well. Such a strange spot though.
Hand of the Day #4
Villian in the hand is Ted Lawson. Wasn't really sure what to think of his play before this hand. He had made a lot of standard LP raises preflop, usually pretty small. Overall I'm not going to give cash game respect to someone just because they've done well in tournaments though. We were both deep, I had him covered I think but it really never matted. Since he was two to my right, he had raised my blinds a few times and we had played some hands together....nothing big though, but I did flop a set once and win a nice little pot off him....If anything, he probably thought that I was more than willing to stand up to him as I had played back at him quite a few times(although I actually did have cards every time).
Folded to him on the button, he min raises to $20(WTF???). I had 27 of spades, I call.
Flop comes 279 with two diamonds. I check, he bets $30, I raise to $90, he reraises to $260. Whats your move here and whats your plan of action when you act first on the turn?
What I did
I flat called and checked the turn which was a 5 non diamond.
He then bet $360. Whats your move and whats your plan for the rest of the hand?
What I did
I called.
River was a ten non diamond. I check, he bet $300(such strange bet sizing). I called. He showed AA, I won.
What I think I should've done
I can't see an argument for playing the had any more aggressive than I did. I could see perhaps betting out $600 on the river, as I could fear an overpair checking(which he definitely should've done imo) and it may look like a missed draw. I can also see an argument for folding to the 3rd flop raise or on the turn...hes definitely playing it strongly. But overall I think I played it well(and I think his play here was horrendous). Thoughts?
MarshallPlan
Footballguy
With the Lawson hand, it seems quite obvious he has AA or KK here. The $20 raise and then the flop raise just screams big pair.
Unlucky
Phenom
If you were willing to call $1400 on the river, I think you should have been willing to bet that on the turn. Betting = good. Calling = bad. You fired one bullet on the flop. He called. If you're not going to fire a 2nd bullet on the turn, and you don't improve on the river, I can't see calling anything unless you get a great read that he's bluffing.
Please take my advice with a grain of salt. I don't win money at poker. I'm probably more interested in your critique of my critique.
bostonfred
Footballguy
Here's the hand played back from his perspective:1) Minraise with AA: I want action on this, and hope my opponent catches a small piece of the flop.
2) You check the flop. I bet 3/4 of the pot, hoping it looks like I steal.
3) You check/raise. Interesting. OK, either you like this flop, or you're bluffing. I'll reraise and see where I'm at.
4) You call. OK, I can put you on a range now. You might have a smaller overpair like TT-KK. Two pair is unlikely unless it's 97. Would you really have called with 7-2 or 9-2? I doubt it. 22, 77, 99 are all possible. If you have them, you'll be more aggressive on later streets. A pair and a flush draw is possible (A9d, for example). A big draw like T8d or JTd is also possible. I'm ahead of a lot of these hands, and want to make you pay to draw.
5) The turn is a non diamond 5. You check. That's not a bad card for me, but if you have 68, I just got killed. The pot is 560. I'm going to fire out about 2/3 of the pot and see if you caught.
6) You smooth call. Right now I figure you either have a drawing hand, and are still chasing, or you have a medium strength hand, and are afraid to raise. I still have bullets, so I want to make you pay for your draw, but I'm in the dark.
7) The river is a non diamond 10. You check again. Good news, that probably didn't make your hand. If you had 68, you had already made the straight on the turn. If you have J8 of diamonds or T9, you'd probably lead out here, to make sure you got paid off after chasing. You have to figure I'm going to check behind. If you have A9d, you might call a small value bet, but that's about it. If you had JTd, you'll have rivered top pair and be forced to call. If you have a busted flush draw, I get to take the pot without showing. All of those are good results for me. I'm going to fire a small value bet.
I actually like that small value bet at the end. I know you think that's a strange bet size, but it's really rare that a good player will check raise the river, and especially not an aggressive player like you. You and I know that you actually had two pair, but he's way ahead of your range right now. It's a good bet.
Assani Fisher
Footballguy
Interesting analysis. Considering that most of you think that his play clearly indicates a big pair, would you then have check raised the river?
Joe T
Footballguy
Sounds like you are going to the TommyGunZ school of real estate.Lol @ John. Isn't NYC great?And we're renting for the 1st year...from everything I'm reading people are saying that the market should be ideal to buy in @ 1 year from now, so should be good!
Assani Fisher
Footballguy
I can only speak of the Wynn as I rarely play elsewhere. For the past two weeks we've regularly had a $5/5 PLO game going with many of us $5/10 and higher NLHE regulars. It has played very deep and big- potted preflop 75% of the time, average stack probably around $4000. However two of the regulars in that game, Niclas and Manne, have retured to Sweden....there were about 5 or 6 regulars who would start the game up usually, so now it might be much harder to get it started.A guy named Mark from Europe has recently been playing, and he seems very very good. He says that during the Wynn Classic they'll have a $10/25 or $25/50 game going, but he said that many of the players are very very good, so I'll probably be avoiding it. In general, since I know the floor well and since I know many of the people there usually, I can usually get a game started up if I want to. However its definitely not regularly spread there. The best way to get one started is to start a list of interest then start talking it up at your hold em table.Parmcat said:
Assani Fisher
Footballguy
Interesting way to look at things for sure. Let me address each point....
Absolutely hate this play. For one, since this is the only time he had ever min. raised it gives away his hand a bit(several here even commented that they instantly thought of AA or KK when he raised the minimum). Secondly, it allows your opponent to call with any two, so it gives you no info about your opponents hand. Giving away information and not gaining any.....thats pretty much the worst thing you can do when deepstacked, no? Also you're missing out on some value when your opponent would've called more. Sometimes you just win the blinds with AA- yes that can be frustrating, but its better to win a small pot than to lose a big pot.
Standard bet here, would do it with anything if I had raised preflop against most opponents.
Meh...don't hate this line, but wouldn't have minded a flat call either with AA.
I just don't see how you can eliminate any hands(such as 92 or 72). We're both deepstacked and you minraised preflop....do you really find it impossible that I'd call with any two cards there?
The bet seemed a bit large for me and one that was only going to get called if you're beaten...though you're right that a draw is possible. After I re raise the flop and my opponent calls I may be inclined to check here with AA.
I agree completely here, and I think you perfectly show how we really don't know much at all about where we stand here....I think we got ourselves into a horrible spot due to our play.
Agreed that the river probably doesn't make opponent's hand. Disagree completely about a check raise being rare....in fact, the more I analyze this hand the more I think that I should've check raised here. Moreover, I don't think I'm calling with a pair of 9s here at all....his bet just smells of value bet, and I think I'd dump anything not beating AA here. Moreover, his bet also comes across as a bit scared and I could definitely bluff check raise at times here. As played, if I have AA I'm checking here(although as I said I would've checked the turn).Basically I think he bet sized horribly, allowed a bad hand to see a flop cheaply, gained no information about his opponent's hand, and overvalued his one pair hand.
Assani Fisher
Footballguy
No, your analysis makes a ton of sense to me and I think I played the hand very poorly.
bostonfred
Footballguy
I completely agree, and I think most cash game NL players would agree too, ESPECIALLY in deep stack poker. But remember that he's a tournament pro, and minraising with AA from late position is a total tournament move. I think he played this hand like a tournament player, not a cash game player, which is EXACTLY what you said he would do. So I'm playing it back the way a tournament player would think of it.
True, but remember that he's treating you like a tournament player, because that's the kind of player he's used to playing against, while he's starting to want to take it down.
I don't think it's impossible, no. But I can see why HE would. And while I don't think anyone would completely eliminate it from their opponent's range, it's on the way unlikely side of that range, because a lot of people would have mucked it preflop.
bostonfred
Footballguy
The problem with checking here is that he tells you (his opponent) that he's weak, and he gives you a free card.
Yup.
I'm not sure how much you could check/raise him to on the river and still expect to be ahead if called, since you only had two weak pair. Remember, you were in the dark about his hand, too. As for why I think it's reasonable for him to bet out, think about it - how many good opponents will check/raise a presumably good opponent like him on the river? They'd have to assume that either A) he had a weak enough hand to fold to a bluff, but a strong enough hand that he didn't want to check behind, or B) he had a strong enough hand to call the reraise, but they had 68 or 99 or something that is abnormally strong considering that he is way behind. Check/raising someone who has been weakly betting on an uncoordinate board heads up is almost always a terrible line compared to a sizable value bet, especially if there was a board with a lot of potential draws that never hit. I don't think he runs into players who make that mistake here.
Completely agree. Again, I was just playing it back from his perspective. I think this is a very reasonable description of how a tournament player would have thought of the hand as it played out, and I think we can agree that this was not good deep stack poker.
Assani Fisher
Footballguy
bostonfred said:
I'd be interesting then, with time to now think about it, how you would've played the river with my hand.
bostonfred
Footballguy
I probably would have check/called just like you. The problem with check/raising the river isn't a question of how weak you think he is, but how weak you are. It's not that you're not strong enough to check/raise. It's that the range of hands that will call your check/raise is almost entirely made up of hands that beat you. AA/KK MIGHT call, but that's about it. Or he might be the one with JT, and he's hoping you got caught up in BvsB play with A9 or were chasing a flush. Other than that, you're looking at hands like 99 that flopped top set and is BEGGING for a call here from JTd or something similar, or TT that rivered the second nuts and is reopening the betting because he wants a reraise, or T9 that minraised preflop, or he might even have minraised with 97o and had you crushed the whole way. You're weak enough that you want to see a showdown right now. That's a good play. He was weak enough that he wanted to see a showdown. He made a mistake. You don't maximize your long term explanation by exploiting this play when he occasionally loses his mind with AA, you maximize it by exploiting his mistakes and playing correctly. Unless you have a tremendous read on this hand, the correct play with a medium strength hand is to see a showdown.
Assani Fisher
Footballguy
Went to SoCal for the weekend...no poker, just vacation. Got back last night and played a 6 hour session of $5/10. The Wynn Classic starts today(Wednesday), but I'm really not feeling like playing any of the events. Should be great ring game action during it though....probably even running $10/20 and $25/50(at least thats what the floor has told me). I'll most likely sit at $10/20 most days. A few hands from last night.....
Hand of the Day #1
Villian is Neil, a regular who sits deep. Not too tricky of a player, fairly tight, can play scared at times imo. I get AKos in EP and raise to $40, Neil calls, LP calls.
Flop comes 445 with 2 clubs. I bet $70, Neil calls rather quickly, LP folds.
Turn is a queen non club. I bet $170, Neil again calls rather quickly.
River is a T non club. I check, Neil bets $400. Your move.
What I did
I folded. He said "I was hoping you had QQ", obviously implying that he had quads, and I don't get the impression that he'd lie there as it seemed genuine.
What I think I should've done
This is an interesting hand because I think the only things hes betting here are full house or better or a missed draw. I'm getting 2.5-1 on the call, but I"m obviously fairly weak with ace high. In the end, I just didn't think he would bluff me there and from his demeanor during the hand I thought he was strong.
Hand of the Day #2
Villian is a semi-regular who buys in for around $1000, don't think hes great, fairly tight though.
He limps, Neil limps. I have AA in SB. I make it $60. They both call.
Flop comes J82 with 2 diamonds. I bet $120, villian calls, Neil folds.
Turn is a Q non diamond. I bet $260, he calls.
River is a low diamond(forget which card exactly). I check, he bets $300, your move.
What I did
I folded. He didn't show.
What I think I should've done
Only reason this is somewhat interesting is due to his small bet size and the attractive pot odds, but I'm really not beating anything here except a complete bluff that floated me on two streets. I think its a clear fold.
I guess thats it from that session....nothing too exciting. Had a few nice hands though and won $1400+ on the day.
Also theres something else I forgot to mention from the other day that I wanted some opinions on......
During the past few weeks we have been getting a $5/5 PLO game going with about 5 or 6 of us regulars always starting it(probably won't run as much anymore since two of them were just on vacation from Sweden and went back home). As we were all friendly and as PLO involves often having big all in pots where both people have a decent chance of winning the pot(usually flopped set vs flopped huge straight and/or flush draw), we often would either run it twice(or more), take back much of the pot and just play for a few hundred, or even sometimes just chop the pot if it was really close to a 50/50.
Anyway, my friend Jeff and I were involved in a hand the other day. He had raised preflop and flopped a set. He bet, another guy called. I had a straight draw and a non-nut flush draw. I reraised which was just about enough to put both of them all in....my thinking was that Jeff had the set and the other guy probably had a higher flush draw and I absolutely needed him to fold. It worked out well- Jeff reraised a bit more to go all in, the guy thought for a while, the guy folded.
Once we saw the hands turned over, neither Jeff nor I really felt like playing for a $3000+ pot when it was very close to a coinflip. I suggested that we take back everything that had gone in on the flop and just play for the preflop action. We discussed it for a few seconds when someone not in the hand chimed in....."No you can't do that. You guys bet that other guy out of the hand and now you're not playing it out. You have to play for it all."
I responded to him: "Sir, look at our hands. We clearly were not colluding, as we both flopped very strong hands. I agree with you that if it seems as if we were purposefully betting people out and then chopping then not only should we not be allowed to chop but we should be kicked out of the casino for collusion. Howevever, unless you're accusing us of that then this pot is our money and we are allowed to do with it what we want."
They called the floor, and the floor agreed with the other guy and ruled that we had to play it out(btw the guy who got bet out of the hand was indifferent as to what happened. I'd also be interested in everyone's opinion here: Regardless of who was right or wrong, should this player not in the hand have spoken up or stayed out of then hand?). I said to the floor: "Thats a silly ruling because its completely unenforceable. If Jeff and I want to split this pot, we can just agree to do it and do it later." They didn't listen and made us play it out. Jeff and I looked at each other and agreed to split it later. It played out, and the next day the winner gave the loser 1/2 of the pot away from the tables.
I don't think I did anything unethical and I think its a bad ruling, but I'd be interested in other viewpoints.
Anyway, off to the gym now and will probably start playing around 4 or 5 tonight.
Hand of the Day #1
Villian is Neil, a regular who sits deep. Not too tricky of a player, fairly tight, can play scared at times imo. I get AKos in EP and raise to $40, Neil calls, LP calls.
Flop comes 445 with 2 clubs. I bet $70, Neil calls rather quickly, LP folds.
Turn is a queen non club. I bet $170, Neil again calls rather quickly.
River is a T non club. I check, Neil bets $400. Your move.
What I did
I folded. He said "I was hoping you had QQ", obviously implying that he had quads, and I don't get the impression that he'd lie there as it seemed genuine.
What I think I should've done
This is an interesting hand because I think the only things hes betting here are full house or better or a missed draw. I'm getting 2.5-1 on the call, but I"m obviously fairly weak with ace high. In the end, I just didn't think he would bluff me there and from his demeanor during the hand I thought he was strong.
Hand of the Day #2
Villian is a semi-regular who buys in for around $1000, don't think hes great, fairly tight though.
He limps, Neil limps. I have AA in SB. I make it $60. They both call.
Flop comes J82 with 2 diamonds. I bet $120, villian calls, Neil folds.
Turn is a Q non diamond. I bet $260, he calls.
River is a low diamond(forget which card exactly). I check, he bets $300, your move.
What I did
I folded. He didn't show.
What I think I should've done
Only reason this is somewhat interesting is due to his small bet size and the attractive pot odds, but I'm really not beating anything here except a complete bluff that floated me on two streets. I think its a clear fold.
I guess thats it from that session....nothing too exciting. Had a few nice hands though and won $1400+ on the day.
Also theres something else I forgot to mention from the other day that I wanted some opinions on......
During the past few weeks we have been getting a $5/5 PLO game going with about 5 or 6 of us regulars always starting it(probably won't run as much anymore since two of them were just on vacation from Sweden and went back home). As we were all friendly and as PLO involves often having big all in pots where both people have a decent chance of winning the pot(usually flopped set vs flopped huge straight and/or flush draw), we often would either run it twice(or more), take back much of the pot and just play for a few hundred, or even sometimes just chop the pot if it was really close to a 50/50.
Anyway, my friend Jeff and I were involved in a hand the other day. He had raised preflop and flopped a set. He bet, another guy called. I had a straight draw and a non-nut flush draw. I reraised which was just about enough to put both of them all in....my thinking was that Jeff had the set and the other guy probably had a higher flush draw and I absolutely needed him to fold. It worked out well- Jeff reraised a bit more to go all in, the guy thought for a while, the guy folded.
Once we saw the hands turned over, neither Jeff nor I really felt like playing for a $3000+ pot when it was very close to a coinflip. I suggested that we take back everything that had gone in on the flop and just play for the preflop action. We discussed it for a few seconds when someone not in the hand chimed in....."No you can't do that. You guys bet that other guy out of the hand and now you're not playing it out. You have to play for it all."
I responded to him: "Sir, look at our hands. We clearly were not colluding, as we both flopped very strong hands. I agree with you that if it seems as if we were purposefully betting people out and then chopping then not only should we not be allowed to chop but we should be kicked out of the casino for collusion. Howevever, unless you're accusing us of that then this pot is our money and we are allowed to do with it what we want."
They called the floor, and the floor agreed with the other guy and ruled that we had to play it out(btw the guy who got bet out of the hand was indifferent as to what happened. I'd also be interested in everyone's opinion here: Regardless of who was right or wrong, should this player not in the hand have spoken up or stayed out of then hand?). I said to the floor: "Thats a silly ruling because its completely unenforceable. If Jeff and I want to split this pot, we can just agree to do it and do it later." They didn't listen and made us play it out. Jeff and I looked at each other and agreed to split it later. It played out, and the next day the winner gave the loser 1/2 of the pot away from the tables.
I don't think I did anything unethical and I think its a bad ruling, but I'd be interested in other viewpoints.
Anyway, off to the gym now and will probably start playing around 4 or 5 tonight.
munga30
Checkin' my email
Don't like your flop bet size given villian's smaller stack and the fairly coordinated board. Somewhere between $160 and $220 into the $190 pot on the flop allows you to make a much better sized turn bet. I would prefer a bigger preflop raise, too, but you would know better than I what the biggest raise that will still get called would be.
Don't play PLO, then. Pulling your money out has all the appearance of impropriety and it shouldn't be done. I can live with running it several times to reduce variance. I'd also have no problem if you openly agreed to split the pot away from the table. At least then someone is running a risk to get paid. But pulling back to ensure no postflop loss is not acceptable.
Alias
Footballguy
re: PLO game
At first glance it sounds sketchy the way it played out given that another person was in the hand. It may not have helped matters when you said that if you two wanted to he could have just given you half later if he won the hand. If you look at it from the house's perspective they probably do not want to analyze who was holding what and if collusion could be a factor (even though it clearly did not look like it here based on the cards). The easy decision for the house is to continue play as the hand played out.
At first glance it sounds sketchy the way it played out given that another person was in the hand. It may not have helped matters when you said that if you two wanted to he could have just given you half later if he won the hand. If you look at it from the house's perspective they probably do not want to analyze who was holding what and if collusion could be a factor (even though it clearly did not look like it here based on the cards). The easy decision for the house is to continue play as the hand played out.
Unlucky
Phenom
I concur. You raised trying to get the 3rd guy out, and then you want to just pull it back? Even though it's not collusion, it is collusion. Had it just been the two of you on the flop, then I'm OK with it.
bostonfred
Footballguy
I wouldn't have folded the aces unless I knew the guy was fairly tight. Maybe he had AJ or AK or TT or QT. Those would all make some sense, especially if one of them was a diamond. The pot is 940 and you have 300. You only have to win this hand one in four times for it to be a profitable play. Check/call > check/fold in these situations, especially the way you shut down when the diamond landed on the river. I think a lot of players will fire a bet at that more than one in four times.
Unlucky
Phenom
I would have called. $300 call to win $1240? Maybe he bet small to get to you think he had the flush? If he's tight, would he chase a flush like that? Are you sure he had QJ or T9? I guess you aren't really beating much except for JT or AQ or AJ.
bostonfred
Footballguy
Even though the guy who complained wasn't involved in the hand, he still had a right to protect his interests in the game, and when he sees potentially collusive behavior, he has every reason to call the floor. Otherwise he'd have to wait until he was a victim. Even if you decided to chop the money up later, he made sure that the game he was playing in was a fair one.
Dexter Manley
Footballguy
I think it's weaksauce. If neither one of you wanted to be involved in a 3K pot that was a coin flip, then it sounds like neither one of you are properly bankrolled for this particular game. I'm not a PLO expert by any means, but these types of coin flip situations come up all time, as you well know.And when I read this post I kept hearing Herm Edwards' voice screaming in my head: "You play to win the game!"
Assani Fisher
Footballguy
I disagree completely with this type of analysis. Heres why.....Suppose that the third guy was never in the hand. Suppose that Jeff raised preflop, everyone else folded, I called, and then we got it all in postflop. Then could we have made a deal? Almost everyone would say 'yes you are free to make whatever deal you want.' However according to your guys' analysis, we "play to win the game" and if we can't handle a 3K coinflip "don't play PLO then." If you truly are saying that we shouldn't be able to make a deal(even in the above scenario where just the two of us see the flop) then you're very much in the minority. I won't automatically say you are wrong, and I will listen to your argument. But I took it for granted that everyone thought it was perfectly acceptable in this case, as it clearly happens a bunch of times both live and on tv.What I was asking about was how the presence of a third player to the flop changed things. Basically I think that you need to pick one of three options:1. It was acceptable(my position).2. It would be acceptable with only two people but not with three3. It would never be acceptable.It sounds as if you guys are advocating #3, which I didn't even think was an option. If you are advocating #2 then you need to show why its ok with two people but not with another player having seen the flop. Saying "don't play PLO then" or "you play to win the game" is just bad reasoning imo....would you say the same thing to the high stakes poker guys who cut deals after they get it all in? Live poker offers you the ability to make deals once the money gets all in. I've actually never seen it at $1/3 or $2/5, but I don't think its uncommon at all at higher stakes.Now keep in mind that while I do think my position is correct, I'm very open to listening to arguments for #2(or even #3 but I think you'd be really reaching there). However I don't think you guys present very good cases here."I can live with running it several times to reduce variance".......if its truly a 50/50 then isn't chopping the pot just reducing variance? What if we got the odds calculator out(Jeff actually has it bookmarked on his phone's internet and checked it often during PLO in between hands) and split exactly according to equity? I think you're taking a lukewarm stance here- you're allowing for some reduction of variance but not complete...why not?"then it sounds like neither one of you are properly bankrolled for this particular game"....that couldn't be farther from the truth. Moreover, very wealthy players often discuss deals at the highest stakes. Many poker pros don't like risking money on coinflips if its avoidable; It has nothing to do with the size of your bankroll- theres just no point in it.
I played the hand the same way I would've played it if I were best friends with the guy I was trying to get to fold. Moreover I would've played the hand the same way had I known with 100% certainty beforehand that I would've had to play it out and there would be no chops or running it more than once.col·lu·sion /kəˈluʒən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kuh-loo-zhuhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun 1. a secret agreement, esp. for fraudulent or treacherous purposes; conspiracy2. Law. a secret understanding between two or more persons to gain something illegally, to defraud another of his or her rights, or to appear as adversaries though in agreement3. A secret agreement between two or more parties for a fraudulent, illegal, or deceitful purpose. Every definition of collusion that I can find mentions a secret agreement or understanding. There was no secret agreement or understanding between Jeff and I. I knew BY MYSELF that if the other guy had a flush draw that my hand would gain tremendous equity if I got him out. Raising to get him out is my own play. Jeff with top set was clearly playing HIS HAND BY HIMSELF and not worried about me. There was absolutely no collusion. In fact, to be completely honest if I know that Jeff has top set and will call for certain then I should've folded the hand(I was actually 45/55 but didn't completely know it at the time)- I was hoping to induce Jeff to fold too! In fact, if Jeff had folded and the other guy called and the other guy wanted to make a deal, I would've been more than willing to discuss it(although to be perfectly honest I probably wouldn't have initiated the talk of a deal with him simply because its more rare to make a deal when you've never met the guy before).
I can understand that this was the easiest possible ruling for the floor to make without creating a future problem. I won't disagree there.I'm still a bit baffled that many people have a problem with us splitting the pot at the table but no problem with us doing it by ourselves later though.Good point, and I think I agree.
Assani Fisher
Footballguy
While I agree that position is important, in both of these hands its very likely that my opponent held the nuts while I held ace high and one pair- seems like strange examples of hands for you to say that position matters more than cards.
Assani Fisher
Footballguy
I have never seen the guy bluff. He seems like a semi competant(sp?) player but not good enough to beat $5/10. Moreover the size of his bet didn't seem like a bluff whatsoever, and I don't think he knows me well enough to be doing that on purpose. I think I'm beat at least 95% of the time there.
As I said, I doubt hes thinking on multiple levels like that. And hes not tight in that he won't chase flushes...by tight, I simply meant that he wasn't playing a ton of hands preflop nor firing bluffs that I had ever seen. Maybe "unimaginative" would be a better word choice than "tight."I'm still very very sure that I was beat here, although as I said the pot odds are what makes it an interesting hand somewhat.
munga30
Checkin' my email
Same as before. Run it twice. Make a deal to split the pot after you get up from the table. But no, you can't unwind the hand at the table. The pot should be pushed to a winner. The issue isn't whether you and your opponent could or should deal. It's an issue of whether the house should condone unwinding the hand, and IMO they should not. Maybe it happens without the floor realizing it, I dunno. But condoning it is bad for the game. It tells non-regulars that they are going to get different treatment than regulars who know each other. That's going to make non-regulars uncomfortable and hesitant to put their money at risk. Clearly, this is bad for the game. What is it about being all in that, in your opinion, creates this opening for unwinding a hand? Why not allow this any time it's HU, at any point in the action? You're the small blind and you raise preflop and get called by the big blind. You bet out on the flop and get raised. Then you say, "hey, since it's just us, why don't we each take back our money and move on to the next hand?" By your reasoning, it should be ok at this point as long as only two players were involved, right?
Alias
Footballguy
I thought a little more about this, I think this is why a lot of people think (even heads up) that "unwinding" the hand should not be allowed.
Should the rules at higher stakes poker remain the same as at lower stakes poker? It sounds like the taking your chips out of the pot is only a high stakes policy.
Do you typically flip your cards up on the table when you are all-in? Did you only do so here because you were friends with villain? Is it more common in Omaha? I am pretty sure in NL the house does not force you to flip them over at lower stakes (altho it could vary by casino). Is this more common in higher stakes games so that these types of "deals" can be made?
Just in the same way that you cannot take money off of the table, nor can you hand money from your stack to another player, you should not be able to unwind a hand since it sounds an awful lot like handing money from one player's stack to another. It may be allowed as a courtesy to the players playing at higher stake games, but to all the guys playing above their limit sitting down at the table with you, this is going to look fishy to them since they are not used to it. I'd also say it is not out of line for them to call you out on it, especially if they had never seen it done before. If the house allows it, then so be it, but it is their right to ask for clarification.
Without really knowing what is proper etiquette at the higher stakes games nor in Omaha it is hard to agree with you, but I'll take your word on it when (if) I sit down at a table with you at these stakes.
Should the rules at higher stakes poker remain the same as at lower stakes poker? It sounds like the taking your chips out of the pot is only a high stakes policy.
Do you typically flip your cards up on the table when you are all-in? Did you only do so here because you were friends with villain? Is it more common in Omaha? I am pretty sure in NL the house does not force you to flip them over at lower stakes (altho it could vary by casino). Is this more common in higher stakes games so that these types of "deals" can be made?
Just in the same way that you cannot take money off of the table, nor can you hand money from your stack to another player, you should not be able to unwind a hand since it sounds an awful lot like handing money from one player's stack to another. It may be allowed as a courtesy to the players playing at higher stake games, but to all the guys playing above their limit sitting down at the table with you, this is going to look fishy to them since they are not used to it. I'd also say it is not out of line for them to call you out on it, especially if they had never seen it done before. If the house allows it, then so be it, but it is their right to ask for clarification.
Without really knowing what is proper etiquette at the higher stakes games nor in Omaha it is hard to agree with you, but I'll take your word on it when (if) I sit down at a table with you at these stakes.
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Assani Fisher
Footballguy
Yes I believe that to be perfectly acceptable.
Assani Fisher
Footballguy
I think that the rules should be the same and usually are the same at every game. However, I never ever see this sort of thing happen at lower stakes. One reason could be that in almost any room except for the Wynn the lower stakes games are capped, and getting 100 BBs all in isn't really that big of a deal, but when its an uncapped higher stakes game you're more likely to have a huge pot compared to the blinds.
In Omaha, it'll often be a race situation, so I'll nearly always flip my cards over and be willing to discuss a deal if my opponent wants to. In hold em, if I have a monster such as a set, I'll flip over my cards simply because I think its good etiquette to not slow roll in any way whatsoever. If I feel as if I may be beat and want to muck my hand if I am then I'll probably not turn them over.
Technically I understand your point. However taking money off the table is much much less of an issue at higher stakes games because most people are buying in deep anyway. For example people will often get room service delivered to the table or a massage and take $100 off the table to pay....nobody ever says a word because its insignificant. At lower stakes you're much more likely to have a guy double up and suddenly be sitting much more deep than hes comfortable.
Much as I agreed with BF earlier, I completely agree with this point now.
Well I can tell you for sure that its common to discuss running it twice and/or only playing for some of the money. I'm sure that some casinos do not allow this, but I've personally seen it allowed at some as well. Therefore, ethically I think it is 100% fine. The issue that I was initially raising was that of another player being "bet out of the hand" and then it being done. Imo, if any collusion is suspected then it should not be allowed. Furthermore, I'd have no problem if Jeff and I were officially told that we were being watched for collusion due to our agreement(if it was allowed, which it wasn't)- I value my reputation and if anyone ever questions my integrity I have no problem proving myself. Obviously others do not share my opinion, and I can somewhat understand where they are coming from. In the end though, I still don't see the point of it all since Jeff and I were able to just split the money later.
Assani Fisher
Footballguy
http://www.pokertube.com/ShowMovie.aspx?mo...amp;pComIndex=1
Watch the first 15 seconds of this video....Sammy and DN both put in $45,000 preflop. Sammy then offers a chop before the flop even comes. It is turned down by DN, but notice that nobody else at the table had any problem whatsoever about it being offered.
edit: Also notice that the dealer stops dealing and allows them to discuss the deal no questions asked.
Edited again to add: http://www.pokertube.com/ShowMovie.aspx?mo...amp;pComIndex=1
Watch the 0:35-1:00 mark there.
Watch the first 15 seconds of this video....Sammy and DN both put in $45,000 preflop. Sammy then offers a chop before the flop even comes. It is turned down by DN, but notice that nobody else at the table had any problem whatsoever about it being offered.
edit: Also notice that the dealer stops dealing and allows them to discuss the deal no questions asked.
Edited again to add: http://www.pokertube.com/ShowMovie.aspx?mo...amp;pComIndex=1
Watch the 0:35-1:00 mark there.
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Assani Fisher
Footballguy
Had a very nice +$5900 session at $10/20 last night/this morning.....tired now, but will blog tomorrow when I wake up
munga30
Checkin' my email
If they had agreed to a deal and nobody objected, this clip would help your point. But Daniel said no, so I don't see how this helps your position. Again, my point is the house should not allow hands to be unwound at the table.
Assani Fisher
Footballguy
I edited the post again....watch the second clip- they do make an agreement there. Regardless, the point isn't whether or not the deal was excepted; The point was that it was seemingly very commonplace for them to discuss a deal. I would think that DN and Sammy were aware of the rules....don't you?
Otis
Footballguy
I call just given what's in the pot. Here and there'll you catch someone trying to steal at a bargain (perhaps he put you on a draw or weak hand). The small best size is a trick I'll do oftentimes on the river when I think my opponent is a good player but isn't very confident about his hand -- it looks like value bet and looks like I want a call. Just like you did.Then again, lots of times I call that and donk off that $300 for no good reason. If your read was right, you saved yourself some loot.
bostonfred
Footballguy
I don't think 95% is a good estimate. You looked really weak at the end of the hand. Every scare card in the deck came out, so you checked. It sure seemed like you were check/folding. You might even have been check/folding with a hand that never hit, like 55 or AdKc. I don't think you can use his bet size to tell that it was a value bet because it was strange regardless of what it was intended to do. You can't look at that as a cue about why he was betting. Given your read, if I had to guess, I'd say he caught his flush at the end, but there's a much greater than 5% chance that he was value betting a hand like AJ or AdQc or JcTd. I don't think you're losing much by making this fold, but I think you are losing a small amount. I also think you induce fewer bluffs on the end by calling this, and induce larger bets when they do bluff, which is probably a good thing.Edit to add: I am happy to see that you're making the "big laydown" again, though. And if making this fold is part of a larger mindset that will make you more profitable elsewhere, then don't fix what ain't that broke.
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Dusty Rhodes
Footballguy
Big difference there as everyone knows everyone.I'm still not sure I agree with unwinding the hand in your instance.
bostonfred
Footballguy
I'd be OK with #2 or #1. #3 would irritate me and I might decide not to play at a place that wouldn't let me make deals. I think you actually agree with my position but would prefer #1. My problem isn't that someone else saw the flop, either. It's that you went all in, induced him to fold, and immediately chopped. If you had bet the flop, seen him fold, then Jeff had raised you all in, I'd be fine with you chopping. It would basically be two people chopping a pot with two active players. Another point I'd make here is that this is PLO. A savvy team could basically play a pot limit game like no limit by raising and reraising each other with their sets and monster draws, but play like pot limit against other players when you have weaker nut draws. The possibility for collusion in a multiway pot is greater because of the artificial bet cap. In no limit, a savvy team could do the same thing by having the first player size the initial bet in such a way that it would induce a call from the player sandwiched between them, then force them to fold (or suck them in with pot odds when they have a non nut draw and are up against the current nuts and the nut draw). I think the third player in the hand had a right to ask the floor to prevent the chop, and would have a right to ask for you to be removed from the game and to get his bets back if he suspected collusion (whether he got them would be a different matter). I think the fourth player, not in the hand, had the right to ask the floor to prevent the chop, and would have a right to ask for you to be removed from the game if he suspected collusion. I agree with the house's ruling, because it is their job to make sure that the game is not only fair, but continues to have the appearance of fairness to attract other players. They clearly agreed with your defense, which is why they did not rule that you had colluded. Otherwise you would not have been allowed to stay in the game. But if they made the same ruling in a heads up hand where the two of you were the only ones in the pot, not only would I expect them to allow it, I would be seriously annoyed at the other guy for saying anything.
Assani Fisher
Footballguy
I understand what you guys are saying, and you may be right. Some times people do strange things that just baffle me(an example of this comes in one of the hands of the day that I'm about to post). The pot odds were attractive.Otis said:I call just given what's in the pot. Here and there'll you catch someone trying to steal at a bargain (perhaps he put you on a draw or weak hand). The small best size is a trick I'll do oftentimes on the river when I think my opponent is a good player but isn't very confident about his hand -- it looks like value bet and looks like I want a call. Just like you did.
Then again, lots of times I call that and donk off that $300 for no good reason. If your read was right, you saved yourself some loot.
I really do agree with your edit. I'm not saying that I made the correct play here, but I do think that when I'm playing like this that it shows that I'm playing at or near the top of my game. Also you're probably right that 95% is a bit high.bostonfred said:
Assani Fisher
Footballguy
1. Everyone does not know everyone in HSP. I'm not sure exactly what the lineup was in the clips I posted, but I've see these types of deals made throughout the show(I just had to watch parts of TWO episodes on pokertube to find those clips...it happens almost every show in fact). While you are right that there is a core of players that are always there, there are also many new and unknown people. Bob Stupak, Jerry Buss, the owner of Cirque Du Soleil, winners or runners up of big tournaments(Jamie Gold, Paul Wastika), internet sensations like Brian Townsend, etc. I don't agree at all that they all know each other before playing.2. Regardless, doesn't that seem a bit strange that certain rules would be implied if the people playing know each other but not if they are strangers? Shouldn't rules be rules?Dusty Rhodes said:
3. If Jeff and I had introduced ourselves to everyone at the table and given our background info before the hand, then would it have been ok?
4. I think its silly to think that because you know someone that they are trustworthy. JJProgidy and ZeeJustin were very very well known on twoplustwo and in the internet poker community while they cheated. There was a very high profile case of a regular marking cards at the Wynn a while back(got handcuffed and taken away in the middle of the poker room from what I've heard).
Assani Fisher
Footballguy
I can fully understand the bolded part, and I have softened a bit on my stance that it was a bad ruling. I still do think I disagree, but I can see the other side too.bostonfred said:
Assani Fisher
Footballguy
Didn't get to the Wynn until 9:00 PM last night, but played until 6:00AM. Room was much busier with the tournament in town: 4 games of $5/10 going and 1 game of $10/20(actually 2 at one point but it quickly died down). Even some talk of spreading $25/50. Makes me really wish that the Wynn would regularly spread $10/20. Several of the Bellagio regulars(Jimmy and Mike were the two I knew by name) were there.....Mike told me that he'd much rather play at the Wynn if they spread higher games even- So why not just get a bunch of the Bellagio regulars to start coming to the Wynn more often? Its not like we won't run the game if we have players willing to play it!Anyway, I'm very very pleased with this session. At the beginning the table was seemingly fairly tough, and I slowly lost about $800 or so over the first few hours. However, as time went on some people lost some patience and the game got a bit better. My game stayed strong throughout and I rebounded to post a very nice win of $5900+. Very proud to see other's games deteriorate as they struggled to get hands while mine stayed strong.Assani Fisher said:
I have quite a few hands to tell of. Before I do so, let me introduce two of the Wynn regulars as they appear in a few of the hands here. Pat is a pro who regularly sits with $15,000 or so. He makes rather large bets especially when he raises. Not afraid to put his money in if he thinks its a good play. Has a decent amount of gamble. Can be tricky. Been around the game for a while. Steve is another pro. Asian guy who usually sits with around $5000. No great reads on his play...just solid usually. Have seen him berate people on a few occassions, but I don't think he truly lets tilt affect him too much.
Also, I had previously mentioned Mike from the Bellagio. Handicapped guy who was buying in for around $6000 or so. Was talking about getting $25/50 going. Had only played with him once before so no great reads on his game, but obviously respect the fact that hes a regular high stakes pro.
Hand of the Day #1
I wasn't involved in this hand, and I don't even know where to stop and analyze it. But it was a very interesting hand that I think needs to be mentioned.
Folded to button who raises to $80. Deepstaked($10K+) guy in SB calls, Steve in BB raises to $320. Button folds, SB raises $500 more(seemed rather small imo), Steve calls.
Flop comes AKJ with the A and K of spades. SB bets $1000, Steve calls.
Turn is a low spade. Check, check.
River is the queen of spades, putting 4 spades out there. SB bets $1500, Steve calls.
SB shows JJ with the jack of spades for the nuts. Steve shows KK and mucks.
Afterwards, Steve was very critical of himself for not betting the turn. I asked him if he was scared of AA and he replied "if the Turn isn't a spade then we're getting all the money in then and there I think" obviously implying that he wasn't. I agree with Steve's criticism of himself for not betting the turn. I don't think a spade draw is anything to be scared of there, although I would most definitely fear AA somewhat....if check raised on the turn, I may actually consider releasing it. However, I don't even know if Steve can bet enough to get SB off his hand on the turn since he has a set with the 2nd nut flush draw.
Hand of the Day #2
This was fairly early in my session. There was one guy who limped a lot. The guy to his immediate left didn't limp much if folded to him, but he would limp a lot because the other guy would limp in front of him(I'll often play the same way as I like to see a lot of multiway flops cheaply). I had stolen their limps from them once before with a preflop raise. I had been a bit aggressive, but nothing too noticeable.
They both limped and I got KJs in LP. I raised to $120. Blinds fold, they both call.
Flop comes 78J rainbow. Checked to me, I bet $200. First limper folds. Second guy raises to $500. He has about $4000 behind, I have him covered. Your move.
What I did
I called the $300. The turn was a rag. He bet $1500, I quickly folded. Much later on in the session we became friendly and he told me that he had QQ in the hand.
What I think I should've done
The turn is a fairly easy fold imo. My biggest question is whether or not I should be calling $300 more on the turn. Its only $300 more into a near $1100 pot and I do have position on the hand. But what exactly am I beating here? I could easily be drawing very very slim. I guess he may do this with any jack, but I'm only really beating JT, J9, and JQ. My only hope is to call the flop and then hope he shuts down and we get a cheap showdown. Is that worth $300 more? Honestly I'm not too sure here.
Hand of the Day #3
Again I'm not involved in this hand. I'm going to play through this hand from Pat's perspective....
I'm pretty sure it was limped preflop....not sure how many saw the flop, but the major players are button with $900, EP(guy from Hand of the Day #2) with $4000 or so, and Pat in MP/LP. Before this hand EP had played fairly straightforward poker....no big reads on him, no reason to think he wasn't TAG. Button had bought in short and not played any noticeable hands whatsoever.
Pat has 44 in MP/LP.
Flop comes 46T with 2 clubs. EP bets $100, Pat raises to $300, Button moves all in for $900, EP calls. Your move.
What Pat did
He flat called.
What I think Pat should've done
Obviously a ton of strength being displayed by everyone here. EP had limped in EP and had seemed relatively solid, so what exactly is he flat calling two reraises with? Seems very likely that one of them have a flush and/or striaght draw, but you obviously can't chase the all in guy out if its him. I don't think I mind flat calling here and re-evaluating the turn. If you put in another raise here then you're pretty much playing for your opponent's entire stack if he pushes, and thats pretty risky with bottom set against a deep stacked opponent who has shown a lot of strength.
Turn is a 9 of clubs. EP checks. Your move.
What Pat did
He checked behind.
What I think Pat should've done
Obviously not the card you want to see. We were hoping for a blank or the board pairing and our opponent to check into us. We may not be behind the all in guy and betting into a dry side pot. Moreover, what on earth could EP have that we're ahead of? I think I like the check here.
The river is an ace non-club. EP bets $600. Your move.
What Pat did
He thought for a long while and folded. EP showed T6. Button took the pot with AT.
What I think Pat should've done
I know before I even post this that Pat is going to get critisized here for folding for $600 more into a $3000 pot. But believe me when I say that EP had not shown to be a bad player at all before this hand and he had been at the table for a few hours.....what exactly is he betting into a dry side pot with here? Moreover, what did button push with that you can now beat? I think I most likely fold this hand as well, although as with yesterday's hand the pot odds are so very enticing. You only have to win the pot 1 out of 6 times for it to be a good call, but from how solid EP had been before this hand I don't think you're winning 1/6 times. I most likely fold. Obviously sucks how it turned out though.
Btw, a few hands later guy who was EP raised to $80 from LP. Pat made it $320 from BB, guy almost instantly pushes for $3000. Pat insta calls with KK. Guy had A4os and wins the pot when the turn and river are aces. Guess that guy wasn't so solid after all....
Hand of the Day #4
Pat if the villian in the hand. He hasn't shown any major signs of tilt, but obviously he can't be feeling too great about his session so far. Guy straddles, I raise to $120 in EP with ATs. Pat calls in MP, everyone else folds. Stacks are very deep. Earlier in the session Pat had reraised me out of position preflop with AK(at least he claims he had AK, never saw)
Flop comes A45 with 2 hearts. I check, Pat bets $160, I call.
Turn is a ten non-heart. I check, Pat bets $320, I raise to $900, Pat calls.
River is a Q non-heart. Your move.
What I did
I checked, Pat checked, I showed, Pat mucked.
What I think I should've done
AQ is obviously a concern, especially since as I said he had reraised earlier on with AK so he most likely would've done that again(although not for certain). He could also have a low set and be fearing AA considering how I played it. Or he could have a flush draw that missed and I want to let him bluff. About the only hand he could have that would mean I should bet out would be AJ or maybe a weak ace that just doesn't believe that I have anything. I think checking was the right play there. What would people think about a small $600 bet though?
Hand of the Day #5
Lets play this hand from Mike's perspective. I am the villian. Mike has AA in MP/LP and raises to $80. Cutoff and button call. Assani raises to $320 in BB. You have about $4000 behind you. Your move.
What Mike did
He raised it to $1320. I folded. I had JJ btw.
What I think Mike should've done
This may not seem too interesting at first, but Mike and I talked about it later and I think it the bet sizing is an interesting discussion here. Mike basically told me "You were in a great spot to put a squeeze play on there. You really could've had any two. If I was more sure of your hand range then I would've flat called in position. However, being so unsure of what you held I wanted to just get it in."
I probably don't try the squeeze play here as often as Mike thinks, but theres no way he could know that obviously. I fully understand his line of thought. Furthermore, the last thing he wants is to price the two other guys into calling. I dunno though....he did totally kill any and all action he had. If he flat called and rags came he clearly would've won more money....in fact, I'd probably continuation bet at any flop, so even if high cards fell he'd get some more. Does anyone flat call here? Does anyone raise less to isolate me but still ensure postflop action(at the expense of perhaps giving away your hand)?
Hand of the Day #6
Pat straddles. Steve calls the $40, LP calls. I raise to $200 in SB with QQ. Pat calls, Steve calls, LP folds.
Flop comes Q92 rainbow. I bet $400. Pat thinks for a while before folding. Steve raises to $1200. Steve has about $4000 behind him. Whats your move and whats your thinking regarding the play of the rest of the hand.
What I did
I flat called. Turn was a 3 now putting 2 clubs on the board. I checked with the intention of raising all in if he bet. He checked behind.
River was a ten non club. I bet $1800. He thought for a while and called. I showed, he mucked. He later said he had AA.
What I think I should've done
I think the flop and turn play was fairly standard. I think that I may have been able to get a bit more than $1800 on the river though....he had to either put me on a set or KK there(he later told me "theres no way you're calling me with AQ there" and although I would''ve loved to disagreed with him to make him think I'm looser than I am, hes most likely right). Since KK has more combinations he may be willing to call a bit more than $1800 considering how much is in the pot. But of course I didn't know that he had AA. He could've easily had KK. Overall, I'm not too upset with my play at all here. His line is interesting for sure....definitely very tricky preflop.....not sure I like it since Pat called and since he was probably pricing LP in(even though he did end up folding). I don't think you want to have that many opponents with AA, and it could've definitely be tough to put him on AA.
Anyway, as I said I ended up winning just under $6000 on the night....great start to the Wynn Classic for me. I should be back tonight around 10:30 or so(gotta watch Lost first).