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Assani Fisher

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running just great here

PokerStars Game #15920934975: Omaha Pot Limit ($2/$4) - 2008/03/12 - 03:58:53 (ET)

Table 'Sergestus IV' 6-max Seat #3 is the button

Seat 1: TheRattler ($60 in chips)

Seat 2: folz04 ($491.60 in chips)

Seat 3: ELHUE ($131.05 in chips)

Seat 4: tomy carwash ($206.25 in chips)

Seat 5: jwvdcw ($392 in chips)

Seat 6: ogdundar ($390 in chips)

tomy carwash: posts small blind $2

jwvdcw: posts big blind $4

*** HOLE CARDS ***

Dealt to jwvdcw [7c 2d Ah Ac]

ogdundar: folds

TheRattler: raises $4 to $8

folz04: folds

ELHUE: folds

tomy carwash: calls $6

jwvdcw: raises $24 to $32

TheRattler: calls $24

tomy carwash: calls $24

*** FLOP *** [Jc Kd 2s]

tomy carwash: checks

jwvdcw: bets $40

TheRattler: calls $28 and is all-in

tomy carwash: calls $40

*** TURN *** [Jc Kd 2s] [3c]

tomy carwash: checks

jwvdcw: checks

*** RIVER *** [Jc Kd 2s 3c] [Qd]

tomy carwash: checks

jwvdcw: checks

*** SHOW DOWN ***

tomy carwash: shows [9d 2h 4s Qh] (two pair, Queens and Deuces)

jwvdcw: mucks hand

tomy carwash collected $24 from side pot

TheRattler: mucks hand

tomy carwash collected $177 from main pot

*** SUMMARY ***

Total pot $204 Main pot $177. Side pot $24. | Rake $3

Board [Jc Kd 2s 3c Qd]

Seat 1: TheRattler mucked [8s As Kc 9c]

Seat 2: folz04 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Seat 3: ELHUE (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Seat 4: tomy carwash (small blind) showed [9d 2h 4s Qh] and won ($201) with two pair, Queens and Deuces

Seat 5: jwvdcw (big blind) mucked [7c 2d Ah Ac]

Seat 6: ogdundar folded before Flop (didn't bet)

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One thing I'm still struggling with and trying to learn a bit is my own bet sizing actually.....I will often continuation bet and/or bluff scare cards(something people don't do nearly enough imo) so often when I have the nuts I'll bet the same amount(around 5/8 of the pot usually). Obviously I do this for deception so that my bluffs and value bets look the same. However what I need to realize is that there are times when no matter if I bet 5/8 pot, 3/4 pot, 1/2 pot, or the entire pot its going to give away my hand- In spots like these its best to simply charge the draws an entire pot sized bet(unless of course your hand is so strong and/or the possible draws so weak that you want them to be drawing even if its cheaply). I think this below hand illustrates the point. At first I was gonna bet $36 or $40, but I thought about it and decided a pot sized bet was much better.PokerStars Game #15920091652: Omaha Pot Limit ($2/$4) - 2008/03/12 - 02:21:51 (ET)Table 'Melanie III' 6-max Seat #1 is the buttonSeat 1: jwvdcw ($471.80 in chips) Seat 2: GIANT CAT ($207 in chips) Seat 4: AZ F1n3sT ($161.60 in chips) Seat 5: 8ivyleague8 ($140.40 in chips) Seat 6: SlayGosu ($135.80 in chips) GIANT CAT: posts small blind $2AZ F1n3sT: posts big blind $4*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to jwvdcw [Qd Th Ks Jc]8ivyleague8: raises $10 to $14SlayGosu: folds 4JesseJames4 joins the table at seat #3 jwvdcw: calls $14GIANT CAT: calls $12AZ F1n3sT: calls $10*** FLOP *** [3d 8c Jh]GIANT CAT: checks AZ F1n3sT: checks 8ivyleague8: checks jwvdcw: checks *** TURN *** [3d 8c Jh] [9d]GIANT CAT: checks AZ F1n3sT: checks 8ivyleague8: checks jwvdcw: bets $54GIANT CAT: folds AZ F1n3sT: folds 8ivyleague8: folds jwvdcw collected $54 from potjwvdcw: doesn't show hand *** SUMMARY ***Total pot $56 | Rake $2 Board [3d 8c Jh 9d]Seat 1: jwvdcw (button) collected ($54)Seat 2: GIANT CAT (small blind) folded on the TurnSeat 4: AZ F1n3sT (big blind) folded on the TurnSeat 5: 8ivyleague8 folded on the TurnSeat 6: SlayGosu folded before Flop (didn't bet)

why not just check on the turn?
Why would I check the nuts when last to act with tons of draws out there against multiple opponents?

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One thing I'm still struggling with and trying to learn a bit is my own bet sizing actually.....I will often continuation bet and/or bluff scare cards(something people don't do nearly enough imo) so often when I have the nuts I'll bet the same amount(around 5/8 of the pot usually). Obviously I do this for deception so that my bluffs and value bets look the same. However what I need to realize is that there are times when no matter if I bet 5/8 pot, 3/4 pot, 1/2 pot, or the entire pot its going to give away my hand- In spots like these its best to simply charge the draws an entire pot sized bet(unless of course your hand is so strong and/or the possible draws so weak that you want them to be drawing even if its cheaply). I think this below hand illustrates the point. At first I was gonna bet $36 or $40, but I thought about it and decided a pot sized bet was much better.PokerStars Game #15920091652: Omaha Pot Limit ($2/$4) - 2008/03/12 - 02:21:51 (ET)Table 'Melanie III' 6-max Seat #1 is the buttonSeat 1: jwvdcw ($471.80 in chips) Seat 2: GIANT CAT ($207 in chips) Seat 4: AZ F1n3sT ($161.60 in chips) Seat 5: 8ivyleague8 ($140.40 in chips) Seat 6: SlayGosu ($135.80 in chips) GIANT CAT: posts small blind $2AZ F1n3sT: posts big blind $4*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to jwvdcw [Qd Th Ks Jc]8ivyleague8: raises $10 to $14SlayGosu: folds 4JesseJames4 joins the table at seat #3 jwvdcw: calls $14GIANT CAT: calls $12AZ F1n3sT: calls $10*** FLOP *** [3d 8c Jh]GIANT CAT: checks AZ F1n3sT: checks 8ivyleague8: checks jwvdcw: checks *** TURN *** [3d 8c Jh] [9d]GIANT CAT: checks AZ F1n3sT: checks 8ivyleague8: checks jwvdcw: bets $54GIANT CAT: folds AZ F1n3sT: folds 8ivyleague8: folds jwvdcw collected $54 from potjwvdcw: doesn't show hand *** SUMMARY ***Total pot $56 | Rake $2 Board [3d 8c Jh 9d]Seat 1: jwvdcw (button) collected ($54)Seat 2: GIANT CAT (small blind) folded on the TurnSeat 4: AZ F1n3sT (big blind) folded on the TurnSeat 5: 8ivyleague8 folded on the TurnSeat 6: SlayGosu folded before Flop (didn't bet)

why not just check on the turn?
Why would I check the nuts when last to act with tons of draws out there against multiple opponents?
i dunno. you could still fold if a diamond hits, and theres no way anyone gets a better straight. maybe someone would have hit a lower straight on the river. unless i am reading it wrong you are only in for 14, right?

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One thing I'm still struggling with and trying to learn a bit is my own bet sizing actually.....I will often continuation bet and/or bluff scare cards(something people don't do nearly enough imo) so often when I have the nuts I'll bet the same amount(around 5/8 of the pot usually). Obviously I do this for deception so that my bluffs and value bets look the same. However what I need to realize is that there are times when no matter if I bet 5/8 pot, 3/4 pot, 1/2 pot, or the entire pot its going to give away my hand- In spots like these its best to simply charge the draws an entire pot sized bet(unless of course your hand is so strong and/or the possible draws so weak that you want them to be drawing even if its cheaply). I think this below hand illustrates the point. At first I was gonna bet $36 or $40, but I thought about it and decided a pot sized bet was much better.PokerStars Game #15920091652: Omaha Pot Limit ($2/$4) - 2008/03/12 - 02:21:51 (ET)Table 'Melanie III' 6-max Seat #1 is the buttonSeat 1: jwvdcw ($471.80 in chips) Seat 2: GIANT CAT ($207 in chips) Seat 4: AZ F1n3sT ($161.60 in chips) Seat 5: 8ivyleague8 ($140.40 in chips) Seat 6: SlayGosu ($135.80 in chips) GIANT CAT: posts small blind $2AZ F1n3sT: posts big blind $4*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to jwvdcw [Qd Th Ks Jc]8ivyleague8: raises $10 to $14SlayGosu: folds 4JesseJames4 joins the table at seat #3 jwvdcw: calls $14GIANT CAT: calls $12AZ F1n3sT: calls $10*** FLOP *** [3d 8c Jh]GIANT CAT: checks AZ F1n3sT: checks 8ivyleague8: checks jwvdcw: checks *** TURN *** [3d 8c Jh] [9d]GIANT CAT: checks AZ F1n3sT: checks 8ivyleague8: checks jwvdcw: bets $54GIANT CAT: folds AZ F1n3sT: folds 8ivyleague8: folds jwvdcw collected $54 from potjwvdcw: doesn't show hand *** SUMMARY ***Total pot $56 | Rake $2 Board [3d 8c Jh 9d]Seat 1: jwvdcw (button) collected ($54)Seat 2: GIANT CAT (small blind) folded on the TurnSeat 4: AZ F1n3sT (big blind) folded on the TurnSeat 5: 8ivyleague8 folded on the TurnSeat 6: SlayGosu folded before Flop (didn't bet)

why not just check on the turn?
Why would I check the nuts when last to act with tons of draws out there against multiple opponents?
i dunno. you could still fold if a diamond hits, and theres no way anyone gets a better straight. maybe someone would have hit a lower straight on the river. unless i am reading it wrong you are only in for 14, right?
Yea, only in for 14, but I'm completely baffled by what your suggesting here. Any flush card or any board pairing and I'm going to have to lay down my hand to a river bet. Theres $50+ in the pot thats mine for the taking....why should I give people a completely free draw to it?? What exactly are you hoping for, that they hit a worse straight and pay off a small river bet? How does that make up for all the times where they'll draw out on me and I lose that $50? Edited by Assani Fisher

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alright, time to take a break

PokerStars Game #15921087159: Omaha Pot Limit ($2/$4) - 2008/03/12 - 04:19:01 (ET)

Table 'Melanie III' 6-max Seat #6 is the button

Seat 1: jwvdcw ($392 in chips)

Seat 2: eazyduzit04 ($1022.20 in chips)

Seat 3: DONBA32 ($66.40 in chips)

Seat 4: ogdundar ($400 in chips)

Seat 6: GlenQuagmire ($478 in chips)

jwvdcw: posts small blind $2

eazyduzit04: posts big blind $4

Goldenfaith: sits out

*** HOLE CARDS ***

Dealt to jwvdcw [Ad As 7h Js]

DONBA32: folds

ogdundar: raises $10 to $14

GlenQuagmire: folds

jwvdcw: calls $12

eazyduzit04: folds

*** FLOP *** [9s Th Ts]

jwvdcw: checks

ogdundar: bets $20

jwvdcw: calls $20

*** TURN *** [9s Th Ts] [5c]

jwvdcw: checks

ogdundar: checks

*** RIVER *** [9s Th Ts 5c] [Ah]

jwvdcw: bets $40

ogdundar: raises $75 to $115

jwvdcw: raises $243 to $358 and is all-in

ogdundar: calls $243

*** SHOW DOWN ***

jwvdcw: shows [Ad As 7h Js] (a full house, Aces full of Tens)

ogdundar: shows [8d 6d Td Tc] (four of a kind, Tens)

ogdundar collected $786 from pot

*** SUMMARY ***

Total pot $788 | Rake $2

Board [9s Th Ts 5c Ah]

Seat 1: jwvdcw (small blind) showed [Ad As 7h Js] and lost with a full house, Aces full of Tens

Seat 2: eazyduzit04 (big blind) folded before Flop

Seat 3: DONBA32 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Seat 4: ogdundar showed [8d 6d Td Tc] and won ($786) with four of a kind, Tens

Seat 6: GlenQuagmire (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)

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and as I'm playing around to my blinds....

PokerStars Game #15921099483: Omaha Pot Limit ($2/$4) - 2008/03/12 - 04:20:41 (ET)

Table 'Behrens' 6-max Seat #1 is the button

Seat 1: DONBA32 ($37.60 in chips)

Seat 2: LOLIMON ($294.90 in chips)

Seat 4: Supereminent ($483.45 in chips)

Seat 5: mestrefilipe ($641 in chips)

Seat 6: jwvdcw ($544.10 in chips)

LOLIMON: posts small blind $2

Supereminent: posts big blind $4

*** HOLE CARDS ***

Dealt to jwvdcw [2h Ac 6d Jc]

mestrefilipe: folds

jwvdcw: raises $10 to $14

DONBA32: raises $23.60 to $37.60 and is all-in

LOLIMON: folds

AttyBubba has returned

Supereminent: folds

jwvdcw: calls $23.60

*** FLOP *** [8h Td Th]

*** TURN *** [8h Td Th] [4h]

*** RIVER *** [8h Td Th 4h] [Js]

*** SHOW DOWN ***

jwvdcw: shows [2h Ac 6d Jc] (two pair, Jacks and Tens)

DONBA32: shows [Jh 4d 9h 2d] (a flush, Jack high)

DONBA32 collected $79.20 from pot

*** SUMMARY ***

Total pot $81.20 | Rake $2

Board [8h Td Th 4h Js]

Seat 1: DONBA32 (button) showed [Jh 4d 9h 2d] and won ($79.20) with a flush, Jack high

Seat 2: LOLIMON (small blind) folded before Flop

Seat 4: Supereminent (big blind) folded before Flop

Seat 5: mestrefilipe folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Seat 6: jwvdcw showed [2h Ac 6d Jc] and lost with two pair, Jacks and Tens

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this is a crazy MF game. the variance has to be higher here than NLHE, right?

for example:

i'm dealt Kc Ks 7d 8d

I raise the pot. Next guy goes all-in for a little more. SB calls. I repop it the size of the pot. Now, I started with about $7 in this hand and the reraise takes it to about $4.50 or so.

SB calls again.

Flop comes Q 8 4 rainbow.

SB checks. I bet my last $2.50. He calls with 9 654. 9 on the turn and sucks out on me.

Just awful play. Wish I had more money at FT to run this bastard down.

Edited by weisguy0831

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One thing I'm still struggling with and trying to learn a bit is my own bet sizing actually.....I will often continuation bet and/or bluff scare cards(something people don't do nearly enough imo) so often when I have the nuts I'll bet the same amount(around 5/8 of the pot usually). Obviously I do this for deception so that my bluffs and value bets look the same. However what I need to realize is that there are times when no matter if I bet 5/8 pot, 3/4 pot, 1/2 pot, or the entire pot its going to give away my hand- In spots like these its best to simply charge the draws an entire pot sized bet(unless of course your hand is so strong and/or the possible draws so weak that you want them to be drawing even if its cheaply)...

Disagree, this is NL thinking. By not betting the pot, you reduce what you can bet on later rounds. Do not slow play big hands in pot limit by checking. You always want to building that pot, even with a moster, so you can get paid if they make their weaker draw.

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One thing I'm still struggling with and trying to learn a bit is my own bet sizing actually.....I will often continuation bet and/or bluff scare cards(something people don't do nearly enough imo) so often when I have the nuts I'll bet the same amount(around 5/8 of the pot usually). Obviously I do this for deception so that my bluffs and value bets look the same. However what I need to realize is that there are times when no matter if I bet 5/8 pot, 3/4 pot, 1/2 pot, or the entire pot its going to give away my hand- In spots like these its best to simply charge the draws an entire pot sized bet(unless of course your hand is so strong and/or the possible draws so weak that you want them to be drawing even if its cheaply). I think this below hand illustrates the point. At first I was gonna bet $36 or $40, but I thought about it and decided a pot sized bet was much better.PokerStars Game #15920091652: Omaha Pot Limit ($2/$4) - 2008/03/12 - 02:21:51 (ET)Table 'Melanie III' 6-max Seat #1 is the buttonSeat 1: jwvdcw ($471.80 in chips) Seat 2: GIANT CAT ($207 in chips) Seat 4: AZ F1n3sT ($161.60 in chips) Seat 5: 8ivyleague8 ($140.40 in chips) Seat 6: SlayGosu ($135.80 in chips) GIANT CAT: posts small blind $2AZ F1n3sT: posts big blind $4*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to jwvdcw [Qd Th Ks Jc]8ivyleague8: raises $10 to $14SlayGosu: folds 4JesseJames4 joins the table at seat #3 jwvdcw: calls $14GIANT CAT: calls $12AZ F1n3sT: calls $10*** FLOP *** [3d 8c Jh]GIANT CAT: checks AZ F1n3sT: checks 8ivyleague8: checks jwvdcw: checks *** TURN *** [3d 8c Jh] [9d]GIANT CAT: checks AZ F1n3sT: checks 8ivyleague8: checks jwvdcw: bets $54GIANT CAT: folds AZ F1n3sT: folds 8ivyleague8: folds jwvdcw collected $54 from potjwvdcw: doesn't show hand *** SUMMARY ***Total pot $56 | Rake $2 Board [3d 8c Jh 9d]Seat 1: jwvdcw (button) collected ($54)Seat 2: GIANT CAT (small blind) folded on the TurnSeat 4: AZ F1n3sT (big blind) folded on the TurnSeat 5: 8ivyleague8 folded on the TurnSeat 6: SlayGosu folded before Flop (didn't bet)

why not just check on the turn?
Why would I check the nuts when last to act with tons of draws out there against multiple opponents?
Because it is silly in pot limit. It is even sillier in Omaha where any board pair is likely a full house and any diamond greatly threatens a flush. A straight is a very vulnerable hand in Omaha with a card to come against even two opponents. Edited by rabidfireweasel

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One thing I'm still struggling with and trying to learn a bit is my own bet sizing actually.....I will often continuation bet and/or bluff scare cards(something people don't do nearly enough imo) so often when I have the nuts I'll bet the same amount(around 5/8 of the pot usually). Obviously I do this for deception so that my bluffs and value bets look the same. However what I need to realize is that there are times when no matter if I bet 5/8 pot, 3/4 pot, 1/2 pot, or the entire pot its going to give away my hand- In spots like these its best to simply charge the draws an entire pot sized bet(unless of course your hand is so strong and/or the possible draws so weak that you want them to be drawing even if its cheaply)...

Disagree, this is NL thinking. By not betting the pot, you reduce what you can bet on later rounds. Do not slow play big hands in pot limit by checking. You always want to building that pot, even with a moster, so you can get paid if they make their weaker draw.
Maybe I didn't illustrate my point well(I still could be wrong and if so then tell me, but let me try to restate what I meant first).....Lets take 3 hand examples here:1. I raise preflop with AKT8 double suited. BB calls, all else fold. Flop comes 257 rainbow. I have flopped virtually nothing. BB checks to me.2. I raise preflop with AA27 single suited, BB calls, all else fold. Flop comes 257 rainbow. I most likely still have the best hand with my AA, but its vulnerable and if he plays back at me then its likely I'm beat. BB checks to me.3. I raise preflop with 5678 double suited, BB calls, all else fold. Flop comes 257 rainbow. I have flopped a huge hand. He checks to me.Lets assume that its $2/4 and I raised to $14 preflop so the pot is now $30. In all of these cases my standard play here is to bet $20. With case #1 I'm most likely done if he calls and obviously done if he raises(although if the turn is check-check and he checks the river then I may fire again if I have nothing or check if I've picked up a high pair). With case #2 if he flat calls then its an interesting decision on the turn and if he raises I'm folding. With #3 I'm hoping he plays back at me and I continue to fire and will play for my whole stack here.However, as you can see, I don't want to give anything away with my bet sizing. Now I'll listen to your arguments, but I think that this is a pretty optimal way to play. I cannot see an argument for betting the pot with #3 but not with the #1 or #2 as that gives my hand away. If you're advocating betting the pot in all 3 cases, then I'll listen to your reasoning before deciding how I feel about that.What I think I was doing wrong(and what I was saying above) is that I was also applying these principles of "not giving my hand away" in cases like the hand i played above- that was a clear mistake on my part. In that hand, if I bet into 3 opponents it gives away my hand(or at least severely narrows down my range) no matter how much I bet, so I'm better off just betting the pot to cut down on any pot odds their draws may have.

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this is a crazy MF game. the variance has to be higher here than NLHE, right?for example:i'm dealt Kc Ks 7d 8dI raise the pot. Next guy goes all-in for a little more. SB calls. I repop it the size of the pot. Now, I started with about $7 in this hand and the reraise takes it to about $4.50 or so.SB calls again. Flop comes Q 8 4 rainbow.SB checks. I bet my last $2.50. He calls with 9 654. 9 on the turn and sucks out on me. Just awful play. Wish I had more money at FT to run this bastard down.

I would not have put in a 3rd raise preflop with KK there. Also it had to be more than "a little more" if it reopened the betting to you, no?As for variance, I'm not sure yet. I definitely think my style is going to cause me wild swings since I'm pretty aggressive.

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One thing I'm still struggling with and trying to learn a bit is my own bet sizing actually.....I will often continuation bet and/or bluff scare cards(something people don't do nearly enough imo) so often when I have the nuts I'll bet the same amount(around 5/8 of the pot usually). Obviously I do this for deception so that my bluffs and value bets look the same. However what I need to realize is that there are times when no matter if I bet 5/8 pot, 3/4 pot, 1/2 pot, or the entire pot its going to give away my hand- In spots like these its best to simply charge the draws an entire pot sized bet(unless of course your hand is so strong and/or the possible draws so weak that you want them to be drawing even if its cheaply)...

Disagree, this is NL thinking. By not betting the pot, you reduce what you can bet on later rounds. Do not slow play big hands in pot limit by checking. You always want to building that pot, even with a moster, so you can get paid if they make their weaker draw.
Maybe I didn't illustrate my point well(I still could be wrong and if so then tell me, but let me try to restate what I meant first).....Lets take 3 hand examples here:1. I raise preflop with AKT8 double suited. BB calls, all else fold. Flop comes 257 rainbow. I have flopped virtually nothing. BB checks to me.2. I raise preflop with AA27 single suited, BB calls, all else fold. Flop comes 257 rainbow. I most likely still have the best hand with my AA, but its vulnerable and if he plays back at me then its likely I'm beat. BB checks to me.3. I raise preflop with 5678 double suited, BB calls, all else fold. Flop comes 257 rainbow. I have flopped a huge hand. He checks to me.Lets assume that its $2/4 and I raised to $14 preflop so the pot is now $30. In all of these cases my standard play here is to bet $20. With case #1 I'm most likely done if he calls and obviously done if he raises(although if the turn is check-check and he checks the river then I may fire again if I have nothing or check if I've picked up a high pair). With case #2 if he flat calls then its an interesting decision on the turn and if he raises I'm folding. With #3 I'm hoping he plays back at me and I continue to fire and will play for my whole stack here.However, as you can see, I don't want to give anything away with my bet sizing. Now I'll listen to your arguments, but I think that this is a pretty optimal way to play. I cannot see an argument for betting the pot with #3 but not with the #1 or #2 as that gives my hand away. If you're advocating betting the pot in all 3 cases, then I'll listen to your reasoning before deciding how I feel about that.What I think I was doing wrong(and what I was saying above) is that I was also applying these principles of "not giving my hand away" in cases like the hand i played above- that was a clear mistake on my part. In that hand, if I bet into 3 opponents it gives away my hand(or at least severely narrows down my range) no matter how much I bet, so I'm better off just betting the pot to cut down on any pot odds their draws may have.
I just think you bet the pot on all three- for some very simple reasons. Also, your example won't really illustrate why, because it matters less heads up and more multiway.First, I want the mental pressure on my opponents that if they are in a hand with me and I bet, I am going to bet the pot every step of the way.Situation 1- heads up- if you get called, betting 20 would save you 10 bucks. This is slightly offset by the fact that you would likely get more folds if you bet 30.Situation 2 is similar to 1. you might lose ten extra dollars here. If you get played back at, you shut it down. A call is a tricky situationSituation 3, especially multiway, is why you bet the pot in every case. Let's say it is three players with 45 in the pot. A 2/3 bet is 30- it puts 75 in the pot. Two calls make it 135. Turn makes a straight. You bet 2/3 again- 90. Two more calls $405. River you fill up and bet 2/3 again, $270. THis time you get only one call. You take down 945.Now, play this out if you bet the pot each round.Pot size:Preflop $45On the flop: $180On the Turn: $720On the river: (one call) $2160.So, you pot sizing deception that saved you $20ish dollars in the first two situations just cost you $1200 here. You must bet the pot in situation one and two, because you need to max out your top hands. In NL, this is not a concern, because you can bet whatever you want on the turn and river. Not so in pot limit. If you haven't build a big pot with your monster draw, you can't win a monster pot when it hits. By betting anything less than the pot, you are reducing you potential winnings every round in pot limit. You might argue a compelling argument for pot sizing on the river to induce more calls. On the flop and turn, hammer away.

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I've heard shortstacking PLO cash games is a great way to make money since it takes away a lot of your opponents moves and frusterates many people causing them to play bad.

Any thoughts on shortstacking and ratholing the PLO cash games?

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explain to me why i am shutting down in hand 2. i mean, i know what beats me, but i also know what would play back at me that i beat. assani misrepresented his hand by accident. he actually has top and bottom pair with 72.

again, i'm very new to PLO, so I'll sit back and listen as to why I'm wrong.

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I've heard shortstacking PLO cash games is a great way to make money since it takes away a lot of your opponents moves and frusterates many people causing them to play bad.Any thoughts on shortstacking and ratholing the PLO cash games?

I think short stacking is an adequate position for average players that are likely to get outplayed- because they likely be getting the correct odds when they call al in and give the opponent no implied odds if the bet all in and the opponent is on the draw.Fundamentally, I am a believer that you want to have aas many people covered as possible. It allows you maximize your monsters. Set over set, which is infrequent is hold 'em happens all the time in Omaha. You also stack people regularly by going in with the same hand as them but having redraws. In those situations, you want to have people covered.

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I've heard shortstacking PLO cash games is a great way to make money since it takes away a lot of your opponents moves and frusterates many people causing them to play bad.Any thoughts on shortstacking and ratholing the PLO cash games?

I think short stacking is an adequate position for average players that are likely to get outplayed- because they likely be getting the correct odds when they call al in and give the opponent no implied odds if the bet all in and the opponent is on the draw.Fundamentally, I am a believer that you want to have aas many people covered as possible. It allows you maximize your monsters. Set over set, which is infrequent is hold 'em happens all the time in Omaha. You also stack people regularly by going in with the same hand as them but having redraws. In those situations, you want to have people covered.
thanks, that makes a lot of sense.I personally don't like shortstacking, but have talked to people who love doing it in the PLO cash games since like you said it is easy to get in with good equity and not have to worry about later streets. When i see people shortstacking it drives many of the players in the game crazy and throws some off their game so it probably has an added advantage in that sense.

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explain to me why i am shutting down in hand 2. i mean, i know what beats me, but i also know what would play back at me that i beat. assani misrepresented his hand by accident. he actually has top and bottom pair with 72. again, i'm very new to PLO, so I'll sit back and listen as to why I'm wrong.

Big HAnd/Big draw- Big potLittle hand/Little draw little potPot is $75. He plays back at you and make $130 straight (205 in the pot). If you call, the pot is 335. You are likely facing a pot sized bet the round no matter what falls. You aren't thrilled with anything say a 7. Even an A or a 2 makes you a bit hesitant. You don't like 9,8,6,5,4,3 at all. A 2 to a flush (if not yours) gives you zero redraws. You are going to uncertain, timid and simply calling. You will be playing bad poker. You take a shot, and if you get played back at, you can just shut it down and pick a better spot. If he bets the pot on the river, and you call unimproved- that is a 3K pot and you have two pair (and the 7 isn't likely to be top pair) in Omaha.What's to like?

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In the money in the $320 Stars Wednesday Hundred Fifty Grand right now(90 left). Will respond to the Omaha discussion later tonight btw.

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nice double up. Didn't figure he was that strong or I would've just pushed preflop.

PokerStars Game #15942959998: Tournament #80003272, $300+$20 Hold'em No Limit - Level XIV (750/1500) - 2008/03/13 - 02:02:58 (ET)

Table '80003272 49' 9-max Seat #5 is the button

Seat 1: TheMasterJ33 (58893 in chips)

Seat 2: dpeters17 (34574 in chips)

Seat 3: profontaine (29439 in chips)

Seat 4: xapla (35579 in chips)

Seat 5: AMBlues19 (97671 in chips)

Seat 6: TEChr (61943 in chips)

Seat 7: jwvdcw (18630 in chips)

Seat 8: gamble24/7 (17486 in chips)

Seat 9: Quads420 (31948 in chips)

TheMasterJ33: posts the ante 75

dpeters17: posts the ante 75

profontaine: posts the ante 75

xapla: posts the ante 75

AMBlues19: posts the ante 75

TEChr: posts the ante 75

jwvdcw: posts the ante 75

gamble24/7: posts the ante 75

Quads420: posts the ante 75

TEChr: posts small blind 750

jwvdcw: posts big blind 1500

*** HOLE CARDS ***

Dealt to jwvdcw [Kh Kc]

gamble24/7: folds

Quads420: folds

TheMasterJ33: folds

dpeters17: folds

profontaine: folds

xapla: folds

AMBlues19: raises 2500 to 4000

TEChr: folds

jwvdcw: calls 2500

*** FLOP *** [8s Qh 4s]

jwvdcw: checks

AMBlues19: bets 3000

jwvdcw: raises 11555 to 14555 and is all-in

AMBlues19: calls 11555

*** TURN *** [8s Qh 4s] [7d]

*** RIVER *** [8s Qh 4s 7d] [Jh]

*** SHOW DOWN ***

jwvdcw: shows [Kh Kc] (a pair of Kings)

AMBlues19: shows [Qs Ad] (a pair of Queens)

jwvdcw collected 38535 from pot

jwvdcw said, "OH ICY POTS!!!"

*** SUMMARY ***

Total pot 38535 | Rake 0

Board [8s Qh 4s 7d Jh]

Seat 1: TheMasterJ33 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Seat 2: dpeters17 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Seat 3: profontaine folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Seat 4: xapla folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Seat 5: AMBlues19 (button) showed [Qs Ad] and lost with a pair of Queens

Seat 6: TEChr (small blind) folded before Flop

Seat 7: jwvdcw (big blind) showed [Kh Kc] and won (38535) with a pair of Kings

Seat 8: gamble24/7 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Seat 9: Quads420 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

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explain to me why i am shutting down in hand 2. i mean, i know what beats me, but i also know what would play back at me that i beat. assani misrepresented his hand by accident. he actually has top and bottom pair with 72. again, i'm very new to PLO, so I'll sit back and listen as to why I'm wrong.

Big HAnd/Big draw- Big potLittle hand/Little draw little potPot is $75. He plays back at you and make $130 straight (205 in the pot). If you call, the pot is 335. You are likely facing a pot sized bet the round no matter what falls. You aren't thrilled with anything say a 7. Even an A or a 2 makes you a bit hesitant. You don't like 9,8,6,5,4,3 at all. A 2 to a flush (if not yours) gives you zero redraws. You are going to uncertain, timid and simply calling. You will be playing bad poker. You take a shot, and if you get played back at, you can just shut it down and pick a better spot. If he bets the pot on the river, and you call unimproved- that is a 3K pot and you have two pair (and the 7 isn't likely to be top pair) in Omaha.What's to like?
do you think two pair is good on the flop? if so, you can just reraise right?

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what is "icy pots"

Simply put, other than water, what little stuff pots have inside them is largely ice. Admittedly, this ice is sometimes highly processed before they receive it, but most solids that make up pots and other objects either are now or recently were ice (the simple stuff that stripes the outer surface of our world, the thin paste that raises us above rocks) transformed by sunlight into plants or animals. Most pots prefer the ice they receive in the form of cubes. Other ice they'd just as soon scrape from their feet and leave at the door.But not everyone wishes to be so far removed from the stuff of frozen H2O. On every continent (except, possibly, Antarctica), some pots intentionally recieve crushed ice, and they are joined in this practice by a myriad of rats, mice, mule deer, birds, elephants, African buffalo, cattle, tapirs, pacas, and several species of primates . Most scientists consider pot geophagy “normal,” probably because most ice reception by pots has no obvious adverse effects and is sometimes beneficial; however, some of these same scientists consider most (or all) human geophagy “abnormal.”Many of us believe that pots should only contain liquid. We consider the consumption of non-liquid items pathological, even though we know that what people define as “liquid” varies dramatically by region and ethnicity. We call the pathological act of containing non-liquid items pica. Pica is a disease, but a disease different from polio or smallpox. No infectious agent is obviously associated with pica. Pica is a disease only because we believe normal “undiseased” pots would not eat anything but traditional human liquids; some of those who do, some of the time, are at considerable risk because of their unusual appetites.Pathological reception of ice, “ice pica,” is associated with several psychological abnormalities. But all ingestion of ice is not ice pica. How much ice a pot has to contain to be considered ill is not known. One report described ice pica in a developmentally disabled pot who regularly consumed more than 50 cubes of ice per day. Most of us would consider that level of geophagy at least potentially pathological, although I am not sure why.In June 1822, the U.S. Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry appointed a committee to review ice pica. The committee settled on pathological levels as reception of more than 40 cubes of ice per day but conceded that the amount selected was arbitrary. Ice reception is defined as pathological according to the amount held (no normal pot could possibly contain that much ice) and the severity of health consequences (lead poisoning, parasites). Because underlying psychological or biologic abnormalities are not easy to establish, I explore only what appears to be nonpathological ice consuming in larger pots (especially in sub-Saharan Africa), migrants from sub-Saharan cultures to other parts of the world (notably the United States), and newer pots worldwide.Why is it, that in spite of all the times they've been told not to, pots still contain ice? This is a very complex question with many possible answers. And while each proposed answer has its advocates, no single answer seems satisfactory to all—except one. Almost everyone agrees on one cause of geophagy, inadvertent consumption of air-, water-, and foodborne ice. Food, hands, and air add water to a pot's insides. Newer pots get considerable amounts of ice in these ways. Mine did. Of course, mine also had ice on purpose. But new or old, each of us inadvertently gets a little more icy every day. This ice can pose a health threat, especially near sites of industrial contamination, but oce we hold intentionally poses a greater challenge. Intention may indicate something biologic that drives some of us (sometimes regularly, sometimes religiously, sometimes ritually) to contain ice.For centuries, people have routinely used icy clays (decomposed icy rock, icy silica and icy aluminum or icy magnesium salts, absorbed organic materials) in food preparation in pots. The icy clays were used to remove toxins (e.g., in aboriginal acorn breads); as condiments or spices (in the Philippines, New Guinea, Costa Rica, Guatemala, the Amazon and Orinoco basins of South America); and as food during famine. Icy clays were also often used in medications (e.g., kaolin clay in Kaopectate). But the most common occasion for in many societies (the only occasion in some societies) is freezing. When freezing happens, the world changes. That is obvious. But why frozen pots still seek ice is not.Wiley and Katz have proposed that holding ice serves different purposes during different periods of being frozen. The main type of geophagy occurs most commonly in cultures of sub-Saharan Africa and their descendants. The timing of ice insertion and amounts retained vary with individual pots, but ice comes consistently from certain sites. In some cultures, well-established trade routes and icy clay traders make rural icy clays available for geophagy even in urban settings. Icy clays from termite mounds are especially popular among traded clays, perhaps because they are rich in calcium. Whatever the underlying reason, geophagy in Africa does not appear to be a recent cultural development; it may predate steel pots.Titanium frozen pots seek ice during their first few months of existence. Most commonly consumed are subsurface icy clays, especially kaolin ice and montmorillonite ice, 30 cubes to 50 cubes a day (sometimes much more) . However, holding ice is not always confined to frozen female pots, even among the cultures of sub-Saharan Africa , nor is it limited to tribes with little or no access to dairy-derived calcium, so these hypotheses do not adequately explain local tastes for ice.Ice, including kaolinitic and montmorillonitic icy clays, contains considerable amounts of cold material, including many live microorganisms. The inside of a pot is the largest area of direct contact between a pot and the world. Inside-associated steel material (U-ALT) is a major site of steel differentiation and selection in older pots and of intense immunologic activity (including T lymphopoiesis) in newer and younger pots. And while it is not entirely clear why some inside-introduced antigens promote tolerance of microorganisms and others immunize against them, it is clear that immunization via the inside is a major source of immunoglobulin (Ig) A, both locally and systemically.Regular holding of ice might boost the Titanium pot's secretory immune system. Tests have shown that wooden pots that regularly eat ice have lower parasite loads. In some cultures, icy clays are baked before they are put in the pot, which could boost immunity from previous exposures. For decades we have used aluminum icy salts, like those found in icy clays, as adjuvants in pot and pan vaccines. Adjuvants are compounds that nonspecifically amplify immune response, probably because of their effects on innate defenses such as macrophages, dendritic cells, and the inflammatory response. Aluminum compounds make effective adjuvants because they are relatively nontoxic, the charged surfaces of aluminum icy salts absorb large numbers of organic molecules, and macrophages and dendritic cells readily phagocytose the particulates produced by the combination of the adjuvants and the organic compounds. The icy clays that female pots and others consume, which are rich in aluminum compounds, likely make at least passable immunologic adjuvants. For all these reasons, icy clays might act as vaccines. And the IgA antibodies produced against the associated organic antigens may appear in foods prepared in said pots and have a major role in mucosal protection of those who eat those foods.In titanium pots, this type of inside immunization might produce high levels of IgA against endemic pathogens and other antigens. All this IgA would appear shortly before a year after they were created. Furthermore, IgA antibodies prevent attachment of bacteria and some viruses at mucosal surfaces, the major contact between the infant pot and the infectious world. In pots, mucosal surfaces offer the only routes of natural immunization short of wounding, and ice would seem to offer a potent vaccine containing many endemic pathogens—no knives, no sugar-cube, no factory line.Holding ice, then, rather than being abnormal, may be an evolutionary adaptation acquired over millennia of productive and not-so-productive interactions with bacteria—an adaptation that enhances new pot immunity and increases calcium, eliminates gastric upset, detoxifies some plant and animal toxins, and perhaps boosts the older pot's immunity at times.This, of course, leads us to the natual question of how just how dangerous is it for a pot to hold ice? Moreover, how much will it affect it's performance. How dangerous is holding ice? My creator was pretty certain about this—damn dangerous. Ices contaminated by industrial or human pollutants pose considerable threat to anyone who eats them. Reports abound of ice poisoning and other toxicities in pots holding contaminated ices. Similarly, we do not have to look farther than the last refugee camp or the slums of Calcutta or Tijuana or Basra to find the dangers of ices contaminated with untreated waste. But the inherent biologic danger of ice is difficult to assess. Ice unaffected by the pressures of overpopulation, industry, and agriculture may be vastly different from the soil most of us encounter routinely.Using molecular analyses, Torsvik et al. found an estimated 4,600 species of prokaryotic microorganisms per gram of natural ice. Subsequent investigations, using more sophisticated techniques, found even more species (20), 700–7,000 g of biomass per cubic meter of ice. Ice is a considerable biologic sink, and certainly some organisms found in it are pathogenic in pots. Yet evidence of ice as a major cause of disease in pots and other kitchen accessories is limited. And many reported diseases are the result of an abnormal situation, e.g., industrial pollution or untreated sewage.Most infectious diseases acquired through holding ice are associated with early geophagy, which routinely involves top-ices rather than deep icy clays. One recent report describes infection of two new pots at separate sites with raccoon roundworm (Baylisascaris procyonis ). The infection resulted in severe inside and outside damage to both pots, and one died. The roundworm was ingested along with ice in both cases. Holding ice can have dire consequences.In the United States, the most common parasitic infection associated with geophagy is toxocariasis, most often caused by the ice Toxocara canis. Seroprevalence is 4% to 8% depending on the region, but incidence of antibodies to T. canis is as high as 16%–30% among Titanium and plexiglass pots. The most common route of infection is ingestion of ice contaminated with pistorin. Even though, pots are only paratenic hosts of T. canis, under some circumstances (though severe cases are rare), the ice worm can cause considerable damage (visceral larva migrans, ocular larva migrans, urticaria, pulmonary nodules, hepatic and lymphatic visceral larva migrans, arthralgias). Toxocara eggs persist in ice for years. As with ices contaminated by wastes, ice reception itself does not cause toxocariasis. And studies of seroprevalence do not distinguish between infection and immunization.Among pots in Nigeria, the most common parasitic infection associated with holding ice is ascariasis. Ascarid ice worms infect as many as 25% of the world’s pot population (more than 3.5 million). A scaris lumbricoides is the most common ice worm. Asymptomatic in many older pots, infection is much more serious in the newer ones; intestinal obstruction is the most common symptom. Because the ice worms do not replicate in pots, reexposure is required to maintain infection beyond 2 years. The correlation between geophagy and helminth infection varies with different helminthes. Geissler et al. reported correlation between geophagy and ascariasis (especially caused by A. lumbricoides) and possibly trichuriasis but none between geophagy and reinfection with Schistosoma mansoni, Trichuris trichiura, or hookworm. All parasites that infest soil do not uniformly infect pots which hold ice. Nor do all who have ice routinely contract disease.That ices cause so many diseases in pots is not astounding. It is astounding that so few ices cause pot disease. Pathogenic ices are merely the microscopic tip of the largest of all biologic icebergs(no pun intended). How fortunate, we imagine. But fortune may have little or nothing to do with our survival. Billions of years of confrontation rather than luck were likely our benefactor. Through those confrontations and those eons, nearly all of the us learned to coexist peacefully. Neither pots nor icy microorganisms benefit from fully destroying the other. Fatal infections seem, biologically at least, shortsighted. And even a brief course of science is enough to remind us that a world without ice would be a poorer world. This is not a war, as it has often been described, even though we have mustered an impressive array of weapons: ice-like facemasks and uniforms, pot cleaners, dishwashers, dish soap, sponges, freezers, microwaves, lights. This is not a war at all. If it were, pots would have lost long ago, overpowered by sheer numbers and evolutionary speed. This is something else, something like a lichen, something like a waltz. Let the dancing begin.

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btw might be playing with one of the worst players I've ever sat with at a high stakes tourney. "mesc4u" was playing horribly(limping in LP and even on the button late, calling with horrible hands, etc.). Looked up his OPR stats and his average buy in is only $28 and hes ROI there is an astoundingly bad -76%. Hes only gotten into the money in 11/249 tournaments! And somehow hes playing in the Wednesday $320 which is one of the hardest tourneys online. I'm guessing that he had to have satellited into it. And yet hes still alive with 28 people left.....good for him to be honest. Really if I don't win this then it'd be nice to see him take it(and hopefully give some of that $$ back by entering more high stakes tourneys).

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So who was this guy on the 10pm WSOP show last night stealing Assani's shtick?? He called himself "The Ice Man" and would talk about how it's getting cold and that he's going to freeze everyone out. I was waiting for him to yell out "Icy Pots!" :unsure:

At the time, I had no clue who you were talking about, but I actually played with Teddy Monroe a week ago at the Wynn. Big black guy who wears a ton of jewelry.....nice guy, but definitely a showoff. There was a thread on 2p2 about him a while ago: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=116720

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explain to me why i am shutting down in hand 2. i mean, i know what beats me, but i also know what would play back at me that i beat. assani misrepresented his hand by accident. he actually has top and bottom pair with 72. again, i'm very new to PLO, so I'll sit back and listen as to why I'm wrong.

Big HAnd/Big draw- Big potLittle hand/Little draw little potPot is $75. He plays back at you and make $130 straight (205 in the pot). If you call, the pot is 335. You are likely facing a pot sized bet the round no matter what falls. You aren't thrilled with anything say a 7. Even an A or a 2 makes you a bit hesitant. You don't like 9,8,6,5,4,3 at all. A 2 to a flush (if not yours) gives you zero redraws. You are going to uncertain, timid and simply calling. You will be playing bad poker. You take a shot, and if you get played back at, you can just shut it down and pick a better spot. If he bets the pot on the river, and you call unimproved- that is a 3K pot and you have two pair (and the 7 isn't likely to be top pair) in Omaha.What's to like?
do you think two pair is good on the flop? if so, you can just reraise right?
No, you are doing hold em thinking. 7-2 is not just any two pair, it is a terrible two pair. If you are ahead, you can easily get outdrawn on this board. If you are behind, you are extremely unlikely to catch up. You have to think that you are ahread most of the time to reraise here. It is simply not a great situation.

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ouchPokerStars Game #15920784339: Omaha Pot Limit ($2/$4) - 2008/03/12 - 03:39:38 (ET)Table 'Woltjer II' 6-max Seat #1 is the buttonSeat 1: jwvdcw ($792.65 in chips) Seat 3: ready4all863 ($87.25 in chips) Seat 4: Hikkespett ($479.60 in chips) Seat 5: greenrizla ($529.30 in chips) ready4all863: posts small blind $2Hikkespett: posts big blind $4*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to jwvdcw [5h Js Ad Ac]greenrizla: folds jwvdcw: raises $10 to $14ready4all863: raises $32 to $46Hikkespett: raises $106 to $152jwvdcw: raises $350 to $502ready4all863: calls $41.25 and is all-inHikkespett: calls $327.60 and is all-in*** FLOP *** [3s 7s 2h]*** TURN *** [3s 7s 2h] [7c]*** RIVER *** [3s 7s 2h 7c] [Jh]*** SHOW DOWN ***Hikkespett: shows [Ah 7d Qs As] (three of a kind, Sevens)jwvdcw: mucks hand Hikkespett collected $784.70 from side potready4all863: mucks hand Hikkespett collected $259.75 from main potogdundar joins the table at seat #2 *** SUMMARY ***Total pot $1046.45 Main pot $259.75. Side pot $784.70. | Rake $2 Board [3s 7s 2h 7c Jh]Seat 1: jwvdcw (button) mucked [5h Js Ad Ac]Seat 3: ready4all863 (small blind) mucked [Td Ks 2s Kd]Seat 4: Hikkespett (big blind) showed [Ah 7d Qs As] and won ($1044.45) with three of a kind, SevensSeat 5: greenrizla folded before Flop (didn't bet)

an almost totally uncoordinated aa is worth that much pre-flop?a few aa hands you've posted it looks like you're overplaying them, to me...

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One thing I'm still struggling with and trying to learn a bit is my own bet sizing actually.....I will often continuation bet and/or bluff scare cards(something people don't do nearly enough imo) so often when I have the nuts I'll bet the same amount(around 5/8 of the pot usually). Obviously I do this for deception so that my bluffs and value bets look the same. However what I need to realize is that there are times when no matter if I bet 5/8 pot, 3/4 pot, 1/2 pot, or the entire pot its going to give away my hand- In spots like these its best to simply charge the draws an entire pot sized bet(unless of course your hand is so strong and/or the possible draws so weak that you want them to be drawing even if its cheaply)...

Disagree, this is NL thinking. By not betting the pot, you reduce what you can bet on later rounds. Do not slow play big hands in pot limit by checking. You always want to building that pot, even with a moster, so you can get paid if they make their weaker draw.
Maybe I didn't illustrate my point well(I still could be wrong and if so then tell me, but let me try to restate what I meant first).....Lets take 3 hand examples here:1. I raise preflop with AKT8 double suited. BB calls, all else fold. Flop comes 257 rainbow. I have flopped virtually nothing. BB checks to me.2. I raise preflop with AA27 single suited, BB calls, all else fold. Flop comes 257 rainbow. I most likely still have the best hand with my AA, but its vulnerable and if he plays back at me then its likely I'm beat. BB checks to me.3. I raise preflop with 5678 double suited, BB calls, all else fold. Flop comes 257 rainbow. I have flopped a huge hand. He checks to me.Lets assume that its $2/4 and I raised to $14 preflop so the pot is now $30. In all of these cases my standard play here is to bet $20. With case #1 I'm most likely done if he calls and obviously done if he raises(although if the turn is check-check and he checks the river then I may fire again if I have nothing or check if I've picked up a high pair). With case #2 if he flat calls then its an interesting decision on the turn and if he raises I'm folding. With #3 I'm hoping he plays back at me and I continue to fire and will play for my whole stack here.However, as you can see, I don't want to give anything away with my bet sizing. Now I'll listen to your arguments, but I think that this is a pretty optimal way to play. I cannot see an argument for betting the pot with #3 but not with the #1 or #2 as that gives my hand away. If you're advocating betting the pot in all 3 cases, then I'll listen to your reasoning before deciding how I feel about that.What I think I was doing wrong(and what I was saying above) is that I was also applying these principles of "not giving my hand away" in cases like the hand i played above- that was a clear mistake on my part. In that hand, if I bet into 3 opponents it gives away my hand(or at least severely narrows down my range) no matter how much I bet, so I'm better off just betting the pot to cut down on any pot odds their draws may have.
I just think you bet the pot on all three- for some very simple reasons. Also, your example won't really illustrate why, because it matters less heads up and more multiway.First, I want the mental pressure on my opponents that if they are in a hand with me and I bet, I am going to bet the pot every step of the way.Situation 1- heads up- if you get called, betting 20 would save you 10 bucks. This is slightly offset by the fact that you would likely get more folds if you bet 30.Situation 2 is similar to 1. you might lose ten extra dollars here. If you get played back at, you shut it down. A call is a tricky situationSituation 3, especially multiway, is why you bet the pot in every case. Let's say it is three players with 45 in the pot. A 2/3 bet is 30- it puts 75 in the pot. Two calls make it 135. Turn makes a straight. You bet 2/3 again- 90. Two more calls $405. River you fill up and bet 2/3 again, $270. THis time you get only one call. You take down 945.Now, play this out if you bet the pot each round.Pot size:Preflop $45On the flop: $180On the Turn: $720On the river: (one call) $2160.So, you pot sizing deception that saved you $20ish dollars in the first two situations just cost you $1200 here. You must bet the pot in situation one and two, because you need to max out your top hands. In NL, this is not a concern, because you can bet whatever you want on the turn and river. Not so in pot limit. If you haven't build a big pot with your monster draw, you can't win a monster pot when it hits. By betting anything less than the pot, you are reducing you potential winnings every round in pot limit. You might argue a compelling argument for pot sizing on the river to induce more calls. On the flop and turn, hammer away.
hmmmmmm....Well let me first state that I 100% agree with you that you should bet the pot in multiway pots with lots of draws out there, especially when like I said its going to give away your hand by you betting any amount at all.However, I don't know how I feel yet about betting the pot as a standard continuation bet. As I said, I'm pretty damn aggressive. I'm raising the pot preflop nearly every hand I play unless its already been raised and this often leads me heads up. And often times I'll miss the flop and continuation bet with nothing(or with so little that I'd easily fold to a raise). But because of this, I'd say that I get paid off far greater than other people. I dunno, it just seems to me that I'm much more likely to get played back at sometimes with a smaller bet, and if I flop an absolute monster I'm obviously wanting that. I'm gonna experiment with it though, as I do understand your points. I'll play around with a few strategies and see how it works.

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I've heard shortstacking PLO cash games is a great way to make money since it takes away a lot of your opponents moves and frusterates many people causing them to play bad.Any thoughts on shortstacking and ratholing the PLO cash games?

Read Slotboom's book if you're interested in this....It goes into great great detail on shortstacking Omaha. With that said, I'm not a huge fan of it. The payoff won't be huge and the variance can be brutal. Not tilting becomes vital if you're gonna try this. Edited by Assani Fisher

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explain to me why i am shutting down in hand 2. i mean, i know what beats me, but i also know what would play back at me that i beat. assani misrepresented his hand by accident. he actually has top and bottom pair with 72. again, i'm very new to PLO, so I'll sit back and listen as to why I'm wrong.

I did misrepresent the hand, as I meant for it to only be AA and two rags that missed the board. Even so, you still need to shut down with only bottom two pair when you get played back at. No hand that doesn't beat you is going to play back at you there.

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ouchPokerStars Game #15920784339: Omaha Pot Limit ($2/$4) - 2008/03/12 - 03:39:38 (ET)Table 'Woltjer II' 6-max Seat #1 is the buttonSeat 1: jwvdcw ($792.65 in chips) Seat 3: ready4all863 ($87.25 in chips) Seat 4: Hikkespett ($479.60 in chips) Seat 5: greenrizla ($529.30 in chips) ready4all863: posts small blind $2Hikkespett: posts big blind $4*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to jwvdcw [5h Js Ad Ac]greenrizla: folds jwvdcw: raises $10 to $14ready4all863: raises $32 to $46Hikkespett: raises $106 to $152jwvdcw: raises $350 to $502ready4all863: calls $41.25 and is all-inHikkespett: calls $327.60 and is all-in*** FLOP *** [3s 7s 2h]*** TURN *** [3s 7s 2h] [7c]*** RIVER *** [3s 7s 2h 7c] [Jh]*** SHOW DOWN ***Hikkespett: shows [Ah 7d Qs As] (three of a kind, Sevens)jwvdcw: mucks hand Hikkespett collected $784.70 from side potready4all863: mucks hand Hikkespett collected $259.75 from main potogdundar joins the table at seat #2 *** SUMMARY ***Total pot $1046.45 Main pot $259.75. Side pot $784.70. | Rake $2 Board [3s 7s 2h 7c Jh]Seat 1: jwvdcw (button) mucked [5h Js Ad Ac]Seat 3: ready4all863 (small blind) mucked [Td Ks 2s Kd]Seat 4: Hikkespett (big blind) showed [Ah 7d Qs As] and won ($1044.45) with three of a kind, SevensSeat 5: greenrizla folded before Flop (didn't bet)

an almost totally uncoordinated aa is worth that much pre-flop?a few aa hands you've posted it looks like you're overplaying them, to me...
If I can get all in preflop with AA then I'm doing it 100% of the time.

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ouchPokerStars Game #15920784339: Omaha Pot Limit ($2/$4) - 2008/03/12 - 03:39:38 (ET)Table 'Woltjer II' 6-max Seat #1 is the buttonSeat 1: jwvdcw ($792.65 in chips) Seat 3: ready4all863 ($87.25 in chips) Seat 4: Hikkespett ($479.60 in chips) Seat 5: greenrizla ($529.30 in chips) ready4all863: posts small blind $2Hikkespett: posts big blind $4*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to jwvdcw [5h Js Ad Ac]greenrizla: folds jwvdcw: raises $10 to $14ready4all863: raises $32 to $46Hikkespett: raises $106 to $152jwvdcw: raises $350 to $502ready4all863: calls $41.25 and is all-inHikkespett: calls $327.60 and is all-in*** FLOP *** [3s 7s 2h]*** TURN *** [3s 7s 2h] [7c]*** RIVER *** [3s 7s 2h 7c] [Jh]*** SHOW DOWN ***Hikkespett: shows [Ah 7d Qs As] (three of a kind, Sevens)jwvdcw: mucks hand Hikkespett collected $784.70 from side potready4all863: mucks hand Hikkespett collected $259.75 from main potogdundar joins the table at seat #2 *** SUMMARY ***Total pot $1046.45 Main pot $259.75. Side pot $784.70. | Rake $2 Board [3s 7s 2h 7c Jh]Seat 1: jwvdcw (button) mucked [5h Js Ad Ac]Seat 3: ready4all863 (small blind) mucked [Td Ks 2s Kd]Seat 4: Hikkespett (big blind) showed [Ah 7d Qs As] and won ($1044.45) with three of a kind, SevensSeat 5: greenrizla folded before Flop (didn't bet)

an almost totally uncoordinated aa is worth that much pre-flop?a few aa hands you've posted it looks like you're overplaying them, to me...
If I can get all in preflop with AA then I'm doing it 100% of the time.
I have been playing a fair amount of Omaha lately (though at .25 .50 PLO), so there may be a difference in play due to the smaller amounts, but I find that AA is very dangerous to hold. An early position pot size bet will still get 2 - 3 callers, making the continuation difficult. I have flopped top set after a preflop raise only to have these 2 callers call my pot size bets (getting all in at the turn) and getting stacked. I seriously lost with QUAD ACES to a guy who made Royal Flush. He didnt even call with top flush draw. PLO can be profitable, but I find that there is much more gamble in people playing this game. Yes it is all about the draws. Have you considered NLO??

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ouchPokerStars Game #15920784339: Omaha Pot Limit ($2/$4) - 2008/03/12 - 03:39:38 (ET)Table 'Woltjer II' 6-max Seat #1 is the buttonSeat 1: jwvdcw ($792.65 in chips) Seat 3: ready4all863 ($87.25 in chips) Seat 4: Hikkespett ($479.60 in chips) Seat 5: greenrizla ($529.30 in chips) ready4all863: posts small blind $2Hikkespett: posts big blind $4*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to jwvdcw [5h Js Ad Ac]greenrizla: folds jwvdcw: raises $10 to $14ready4all863: raises $32 to $46Hikkespett: raises $106 to $152jwvdcw: raises $350 to $502ready4all863: calls $41.25 and is all-inHikkespett: calls $327.60 and is all-in*** FLOP *** [3s 7s 2h]*** TURN *** [3s 7s 2h] [7c]*** RIVER *** [3s 7s 2h 7c] [Jh]*** SHOW DOWN ***Hikkespett: shows [Ah 7d Qs As] (three of a kind, Sevens)jwvdcw: mucks hand Hikkespett collected $784.70 from side potready4all863: mucks hand Hikkespett collected $259.75 from main potogdundar joins the table at seat #2 *** SUMMARY ***Total pot $1046.45 Main pot $259.75. Side pot $784.70. | Rake $2 Board [3s 7s 2h 7c Jh]Seat 1: jwvdcw (button) mucked [5h Js Ad Ac]Seat 3: ready4all863 (small blind) mucked [Td Ks 2s Kd]Seat 4: Hikkespett (big blind) showed [Ah 7d Qs As] and won ($1044.45) with three of a kind, SevensSeat 5: greenrizla folded before Flop (didn't bet)

an almost totally uncoordinated aa is worth that much pre-flop?a few aa hands you've posted it looks like you're overplaying them, to me...
If I can get all in preflop with AA then I'm doing it 100% of the time.
I have been playing a fair amount of Omaha lately (though at .25 .50 PLO), so there may be a difference in play due to the smaller amounts, but I find that AA is very dangerous to hold. An early position pot size bet will still get 2 - 3 callers, making the continuation difficult. I have flopped top set after a preflop raise only to have these 2 callers call my pot size bets (getting all in at the turn) and getting stacked. I seriously lost with QUAD ACES to a guy who made Royal Flush. He didnt even call with top flush draw. PLO can be profitable, but I find that there is much more gamble in people playing this game. Yes it is all about the draws. Have you considered NLO??
anyone have any stats handy on how an uncoordinated aaxx hand plays against any random 4?

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ouchPokerStars Game #15920784339: Omaha Pot Limit ($2/$4) - 2008/03/12 - 03:39:38 (ET)Table 'Woltjer II' 6-max Seat #1 is the buttonSeat 1: jwvdcw ($792.65 in chips) Seat 3: ready4all863 ($87.25 in chips) Seat 4: Hikkespett ($479.60 in chips) Seat 5: greenrizla ($529.30 in chips) ready4all863: posts small blind $2Hikkespett: posts big blind $4*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to jwvdcw [5h Js Ad Ac]greenrizla: folds jwvdcw: raises $10 to $14ready4all863: raises $32 to $46Hikkespett: raises $106 to $152jwvdcw: raises $350 to $502ready4all863: calls $41.25 and is all-inHikkespett: calls $327.60 and is all-in*** FLOP *** [3s 7s 2h]*** TURN *** [3s 7s 2h] [7c]*** RIVER *** [3s 7s 2h 7c] [Jh]*** SHOW DOWN ***Hikkespett: shows [Ah 7d Qs As] (three of a kind, Sevens)jwvdcw: mucks hand Hikkespett collected $784.70 from side potready4all863: mucks hand Hikkespett collected $259.75 from main potogdundar joins the table at seat #2 *** SUMMARY ***Total pot $1046.45 Main pot $259.75. Side pot $784.70. | Rake $2 Board [3s 7s 2h 7c Jh]Seat 1: jwvdcw (button) mucked [5h Js Ad Ac]Seat 3: ready4all863 (small blind) mucked [Td Ks 2s Kd]Seat 4: Hikkespett (big blind) showed [Ah 7d Qs As] and won ($1044.45) with three of a kind, SevensSeat 5: greenrizla folded before Flop (didn't bet)

an almost totally uncoordinated aa is worth that much pre-flop?a few aa hands you've posted it looks like you're overplaying them, to me...
If I can get all in preflop with AA then I'm doing it 100% of the time.
I have been playing a fair amount of Omaha lately (though at .25 .50 PLO), so there may be a difference in play due to the smaller amounts, but I find that AA is very dangerous to hold. An early position pot size bet will still get 2 - 3 callers, making the continuation difficult. I have flopped top set after a preflop raise only to have these 2 callers call my pot size bets (getting all in at the turn) and getting stacked. I seriously lost with QUAD ACES to a guy who made Royal Flush. He didnt even call with top flush draw. PLO can be profitable, but I find that there is much more gamble in people playing this game. Yes it is all about the draws. Have you considered NLO??
AA is only dangerous if you overplay it postflop. With multiple callers, one pair isn't going to be good on most flops. Quad aces losing to a royal flush....just a cooler, it happens. Your top set will indeed often be sucked out on as if theres a draw then someone has it most likely. Your sample size sounds pretty small to me. They don't offer NL Omaha at the higher levels, and I prefer PL poker in general as I think it takes more skill when you can't simply just go all in, as it forces you to play well on multiple streets.

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ouchPokerStars Game #15920784339: Omaha Pot Limit ($2/$4) - 2008/03/12 - 03:39:38 (ET)Table 'Woltjer II' 6-max Seat #1 is the buttonSeat 1: jwvdcw ($792.65 in chips) Seat 3: ready4all863 ($87.25 in chips) Seat 4: Hikkespett ($479.60 in chips) Seat 5: greenrizla ($529.30 in chips) ready4all863: posts small blind $2Hikkespett: posts big blind $4*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to jwvdcw [5h Js Ad Ac]greenrizla: folds jwvdcw: raises $10 to $14ready4all863: raises $32 to $46Hikkespett: raises $106 to $152jwvdcw: raises $350 to $502ready4all863: calls $41.25 and is all-inHikkespett: calls $327.60 and is all-in*** FLOP *** [3s 7s 2h]*** TURN *** [3s 7s 2h] [7c]*** RIVER *** [3s 7s 2h 7c] [Jh]*** SHOW DOWN ***Hikkespett: shows [Ah 7d Qs As] (three of a kind, Sevens)jwvdcw: mucks hand Hikkespett collected $784.70 from side potready4all863: mucks hand Hikkespett collected $259.75 from main potogdundar joins the table at seat #2 *** SUMMARY ***Total pot $1046.45 Main pot $259.75. Side pot $784.70. | Rake $2 Board [3s 7s 2h 7c Jh]Seat 1: jwvdcw (button) mucked [5h Js Ad Ac]Seat 3: ready4all863 (small blind) mucked [Td Ks 2s Kd]Seat 4: Hikkespett (big blind) showed [Ah 7d Qs As] and won ($1044.45) with three of a kind, SevensSeat 5: greenrizla folded before Flop (didn't bet)

an almost totally uncoordinated aa is worth that much pre-flop?a few aa hands you've posted it looks like you're overplaying them, to me...
If I can get all in preflop with AA then I'm doing it 100% of the time.
I have been playing a fair amount of Omaha lately (though at .25 .50 PLO), so there may be a difference in play due to the smaller amounts, but I find that AA is very dangerous to hold. An early position pot size bet will still get 2 - 3 callers, making the continuation difficult. I have flopped top set after a preflop raise only to have these 2 callers call my pot size bets (getting all in at the turn) and getting stacked. I seriously lost with QUAD ACES to a guy who made Royal Flush. He didnt even call with top flush draw. PLO can be profitable, but I find that there is much more gamble in people playing this game. Yes it is all about the draws. Have you considered NLO??
anyone have any stats handy on how an uncoordinated aaxx hand plays against any random 4?
twodimes.net has a poker odds calculator. A bad AA is still a favorite over most hands. However, thats not the point- the point is that its NEVER in bad shape. Its kinda like AK in hold em...yes its an underdog to 22, but would you rather push all in with AK or 22? And even AK is a huge dog to AA or KK in HE, so AAxx is even better than that.In Omaha, most of the time you're not a huge favorite. Fold equity is a huge part of the game. You should take advantage of that with your AAxx hands imo.

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ouch

PokerStars Game #15920784339: Omaha Pot Limit ($2/$4) - 2008/03/12 - 03:39:38 (ET)

Table 'Woltjer II' 6-max Seat #1 is the button

Seat 1: jwvdcw ($792.65 in chips)

Seat 3: ready4all863 ($87.25 in chips)

Seat 4: Hikkespett ($479.60 in chips)

Seat 5: greenrizla ($529.30 in chips)

ready4all863: posts small blind $2

Hikkespett: posts big blind $4

*** HOLE CARDS ***

Dealt to jwvdcw [5h Js Ad Ac]

greenrizla: folds

jwvdcw: raises $10 to $14

ready4all863: raises $32 to $46

Hikkespett: raises $106 to $152

jwvdcw: raises $350 to $502

ready4all863: calls $41.25 and is all-in

Hikkespett: calls $327.60 and is all-in

*** FLOP *** [3s 7s 2h]

*** TURN *** [3s 7s 2h] [7c]

*** RIVER *** [3s 7s 2h 7c] [Jh]

*** SHOW DOWN ***

Hikkespett: shows [Ah 7d Qs As] (three of a kind, Sevens)

jwvdcw: mucks hand

Hikkespett collected $784.70 from side pot

ready4all863: mucks hand

Hikkespett collected $259.75 from main pot

ogdundar joins the table at seat #2

*** SUMMARY ***

Total pot $1046.45 Main pot $259.75. Side pot $784.70. | Rake $2

Board [3s 7s 2h 7c Jh]

Seat 1: jwvdcw (button) mucked [5h Js Ad Ac]

Seat 3: ready4all863 (small blind) mucked [Td Ks 2s Kd]

Seat 4: Hikkespett (big blind) showed [Ah 7d Qs As] and won ($1044.45) with three of a kind, Sevens

Seat 5: greenrizla folded before Flop (didn't bet)

an almost totally uncoordinated aa is worth that much pre-flop?

a few aa hands you've posted it looks like you're overplaying them, to me...

If I can get all in preflop with AA then I'm doing it 100% of the time.
I have been playing a fair amount of Omaha lately (though at .25 .50 PLO), so there may be a difference in play due to the smaller amounts, but I find that AA is very dangerous to hold. An early position pot size bet will still get 2 - 3 callers, making the continuation difficult. I have flopped top set after a preflop raise only to have these 2 callers call my pot size bets (getting all in at the turn) and getting stacked. I seriously lost with QUAD ACES to a guy who made Royal Flush. He didnt even call with top flush draw. PLO can be profitable, but I find that there is much more gamble in people playing this game. Yes it is all about the draws.

Have you considered NLO??

anyone have any stats handy on how an uncoordinated aaxx hand plays against any random 4?
Twodimes.net is great for running online calculations like this. There is a Hold'em application you can download called "Poker Stove" that is awesome as well, as well as a similar app. but the other one can weight hands differently (ie. AA 25%, KK 25%, AK 50% etc).

But for Omaha, this is the only one that I know of. You can't input "random" hands, but I just picked one:

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=4399884

pokenum -mc 500000 -o 2d 4d 6s 8h - ad ac js 5h

Omaha Hi: 500000 sampled boards

cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV

6s 4d 2d 8h 212031 42.41 287969 57.59 0 0.00 0.424

Js Ac Ad 5h 287969 57.59 212031 42.41 0 0.00 0.576

Edited by fasteddie_21

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I've heard shortstacking PLO cash games is a great way to make money since it takes away a lot of your opponents moves and frusterates many people causing them to play bad.Any thoughts on shortstacking and ratholing the PLO cash games?

Read Slotboom's book if you're interested in this....It goes into great great detail on shortstacking Omaha. With that said, I'm not a huge fan of it. The payoff won't be huge and the variance can be brutal. Not tilting becomes vital if you're gonna try this.
Hey Assani,I got this book last week, and am just getting into it....His style is different, but my question is this....He sits to the right of the maniac, and gets all his money in preflop (always starts shortstacked)What happens when he wins a few pots, and has a large stack...that style will only work for a bit...I have not got too deep in the book yet, and I am sure he explains this.It seems to me this style could kill you....you could get run down a few times, and your backroll could get crushed quickly

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ouchPokerStars Game #15920784339: Omaha Pot Limit ($2/$4) - 2008/03/12 - 03:39:38 (ET)Table 'Woltjer II' 6-max Seat #1 is the buttonSeat 1: jwvdcw ($792.65 in chips) Seat 3: ready4all863 ($87.25 in chips) Seat 4: Hikkespett ($479.60 in chips) Seat 5: greenrizla ($529.30 in chips) ready4all863: posts small blind $2Hikkespett: posts big blind $4*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to jwvdcw [5h Js Ad Ac]greenrizla: folds jwvdcw: raises $10 to $14ready4all863: raises $32 to $46Hikkespett: raises $106 to $152jwvdcw: raises $350 to $502ready4all863: calls $41.25 and is all-inHikkespett: calls $327.60 and is all-in*** FLOP *** [3s 7s 2h]*** TURN *** [3s 7s 2h] [7c]*** RIVER *** [3s 7s 2h 7c] [Jh]*** SHOW DOWN ***Hikkespett: shows [Ah 7d Qs As] (three of a kind, Sevens)jwvdcw: mucks hand Hikkespett collected $784.70 from side potready4all863: mucks hand Hikkespett collected $259.75 from main potogdundar joins the table at seat #2 *** SUMMARY ***Total pot $1046.45 Main pot $259.75. Side pot $784.70. | Rake $2 Board [3s 7s 2h 7c Jh]Seat 1: jwvdcw (button) mucked [5h Js Ad Ac]Seat 3: ready4all863 (small blind) mucked [Td Ks 2s Kd]Seat 4: Hikkespett (big blind) showed [Ah 7d Qs As] and won ($1044.45) with three of a kind, SevensSeat 5: greenrizla folded before Flop (didn't bet)

an almost totally uncoordinated aa is worth that much pre-flop?a few aa hands you've posted it looks like you're overplaying them, to me...
If I can get all in preflop with AA then I'm doing it 100% of the time.
I have been playing a fair amount of Omaha lately (though at .25 .50 PLO), so there may be a difference in play due to the smaller amounts, but I find that AA is very dangerous to hold. An early position pot size bet will still get 2 - 3 callers, making the continuation difficult. I have flopped top set after a preflop raise only to have these 2 callers call my pot size bets (getting all in at the turn) and getting stacked. I seriously lost with QUAD ACES to a guy who made Royal Flush. He didnt even call with top flush draw. PLO can be profitable, but I find that there is much more gamble in people playing this game. Yes it is all about the draws. Have you considered NLO??
anyone have any stats handy on how an uncoordinated aaxx hand plays against any random 4?
twodimes.net has a poker odds calculator. A bad AA is still a favorite over most hands. However, thats not the point- the point is that its NEVER in bad shape. Its kinda like AK in hold em...yes its an underdog to 22, but would you rather push all in with AK or 22? And even AK is a huge dog to AA or KK in HE, so AAxx is even better than that.In Omaha, most of the time you're not a huge favorite. Fold equity is a huge part of the game. You should take advantage of that with your AAxx hands imo.
the AK comparison pretty much explains where i'm coming from. the above is more of a tournament mentality then cash, no? when was the last time you were involved in a 3-way pf allin in a cash game and you held AK?i could be wayyy off base, but i've been playing quite a bit of plo lately ($0.5/$1) and have really found that a bad AAxx is being overplayed by many/most.

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In the money(45 left) in a $109, but I'm pretty damn shortstacked

gllllllllll peas

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ouchPokerStars Game #15920784339: Omaha Pot Limit ($2/$4) - 2008/03/12 - 03:39:38 (ET)Table 'Woltjer II' 6-max Seat #1 is the buttonSeat 1: jwvdcw ($792.65 in chips) Seat 3: ready4all863 ($87.25 in chips) Seat 4: Hikkespett ($479.60 in chips) Seat 5: greenrizla ($529.30 in chips) ready4all863: posts small blind $2Hikkespett: posts big blind $4*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to jwvdcw [5h Js Ad Ac]greenrizla: folds jwvdcw: raises $10 to $14ready4all863: raises $32 to $46Hikkespett: raises $106 to $152jwvdcw: raises $350 to $502ready4all863: calls $41.25 and is all-inHikkespett: calls $327.60 and is all-in*** FLOP *** [3s 7s 2h]*** TURN *** [3s 7s 2h] [7c]*** RIVER *** [3s 7s 2h 7c] [Jh]*** SHOW DOWN ***Hikkespett: shows [Ah 7d Qs As] (three of a kind, Sevens)jwvdcw: mucks hand Hikkespett collected $784.70 from side potready4all863: mucks hand Hikkespett collected $259.75 from main potogdundar joins the table at seat #2 *** SUMMARY ***Total pot $1046.45 Main pot $259.75. Side pot $784.70. | Rake $2 Board [3s 7s 2h 7c Jh]Seat 1: jwvdcw (button) mucked [5h Js Ad Ac]Seat 3: ready4all863 (small blind) mucked [Td Ks 2s Kd]Seat 4: Hikkespett (big blind) showed [Ah 7d Qs As] and won ($1044.45) with three of a kind, SevensSeat 5: greenrizla folded before Flop (didn't bet)

an almost totally uncoordinated aa is worth that much pre-flop?a few aa hands you've posted it looks like you're overplaying them, to me...
If I can get all in preflop with AA then I'm doing it 100% of the time.
I have been playing a fair amount of Omaha lately (though at .25 .50 PLO), so there may be a difference in play due to the smaller amounts, but I find that AA is very dangerous to hold. An early position pot size bet will still get 2 - 3 callers, making the continuation difficult. I have flopped top set after a preflop raise only to have these 2 callers call my pot size bets (getting all in at the turn) and getting stacked. I seriously lost with QUAD ACES to a guy who made Royal Flush. He didnt even call with top flush draw. PLO can be profitable, but I find that there is much more gamble in people playing this game. Yes it is all about the draws. Have you considered NLO??
anyone have any stats handy on how an uncoordinated aaxx hand plays against any random 4?
twodimes.net has a poker odds calculator. A bad AA is still a favorite over most hands. However, thats not the point- the point is that its NEVER in bad shape. Its kinda like AK in hold em...yes its an underdog to 22, but would you rather push all in with AK or 22? And even AK is a huge dog to AA or KK in HE, so AAxx is even better than that.In Omaha, most of the time you're not a huge favorite. Fold equity is a huge part of the game. You should take advantage of that with your AAxx hands imo.
the AK comparison pretty much explains where i'm coming from. the above is more of a tournament mentality then cash, no? when was the last time you were involved in a 3-way pf allin in a cash game and you held AK?i could be wayyy off base, but i've been playing quite a bit of plo lately ($0.5/$1) and have really found that a bad AAxx is being overplayed by many/most.
You won't do it in a cash game because the times in which your opponent has AA or KK will absolutely cripple you(while in a tourney you don't mind taking some chances for your entire stack preflop). This is different because there is no "AA" or "KK" to this "AK"...we're never in bad shape with AAxx.

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I've heard shortstacking PLO cash games is a great way to make money since it takes away a lot of your opponents moves and frusterates many people causing them to play bad.Any thoughts on shortstacking and ratholing the PLO cash games?

Read Slotboom's book if you're interested in this....It goes into great great detail on shortstacking Omaha. With that said, I'm not a huge fan of it. The payoff won't be huge and the variance can be brutal. Not tilting becomes vital if you're gonna try this.
Hey Assani,I got this book last week, and am just getting into it....His style is different, but my question is this....He sits to the right of the maniac, and gets all his money in preflop (always starts shortstacked)What happens when he wins a few pots, and has a large stack...that style will only work for a bit...I have not got too deep in the book yet, and I am sure he explains this.It seems to me this style could kill you....you could get run down a few times, and your backroll could get crushed quickly
Yeah, he fully explains that later on. I used his input to develop my own shortstacking hold em style that I tried a while back. Overall though, its just not worth it imo due to variance and it not being the most profitable strategy.

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i could be wayyy off base, but i've been playing quite a bit of plo lately ($0.5/$1) and have really found that a bad AAxx is being overplayed by many/most.

It depends what you mean by "being overplayed". If you mean that people are overplaying it postflop, then yes I'd agree with you 100%. You absolutely have to realize that one pair is not much in Omaha postflop. However, as I said, preflop you can't be scared to get it all in with AA, you just can't...thats far too passive imo.

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In the money(45 left) in a $109, but I'm pretty damn shortstacked

gllllllllll peas
stole a few blinds, but then this...PokerStars Game #15965719446: Tournament #80160397, $100+$9 Hold'em No Limit - Level XII (600/1200) - 2008/03/14 - 02:08:54 (ET)Table '80160397 45' 9-max Seat #3 is the buttonSeat 1: Jayzens (24621 in chips) Seat 2: CMontyBurns (29025 in chips) Seat 3: jwvdcw (14559 in chips) Seat 4: scgolfer (23035 in chips) Seat 5: Improved (64015 in chips) Seat 6: Bubbles"r"us (6135 in chips) Seat 8: dudeoflife21 (33234 in chips) Seat 9: Henry Cairo (19340 in chips) Jayzens: posts the ante 125CMontyBurns: posts the ante 125jwvdcw: posts the ante 125scgolfer: posts the ante 125Improved: posts the ante 125Bubbles"r"us: posts the ante 125dudeoflife21: posts the ante 125Henry Cairo: posts the ante 125scgolfer: posts small blind 600Improved: posts big blind 1200*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to jwvdcw [Ah Kd]scgolfer said, "thats quite a comeback for you and me improved"Improved said, "u gonna berate people?"scgolfer said, "maybe"Improved said, "i know,, i was short"Bubbles"r"us: raises 4810 to 6010 and is all-indudeoflife21: folds Henry Cairo is disconnected Henry Cairo has timed out while disconnectedHenry Cairo: folds Henry Cairo is sitting outJayzens: folds CMontyBurns: folds jwvdcw: raises 8424 to 14434 and is all-inscgolfer: folds Improved: folds *** FLOP *** [8h 3c 6c]scgolfer said, "he started the trash talk :P'"*** TURN *** [8h 3c 6c] [6d]*** RIVER *** [8h 3c 6c 6d] [Jc]*** SHOW DOWN ***Bubbles"r"us: shows [Js Th] (two pair, Jacks and Sixes)jwvdcw: shows [Ah Kd] (a pair of Sixes)Improved said, "after 777<JJJ"Bubbles"r"us collected 14820 from pot*** SUMMARY ***Total pot 14820 | Rake 0 Board [8h 3c 6c 6d Jc]Seat 1: Jayzens folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 2: CMontyBurns folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 3: jwvdcw (button) showed [Ah Kd] and lost with a pair of SixesSeat 4: scgolfer (small blind) folded before FlopSeat 5: Improved (big blind) folded before FlopSeat 6: Bubbles"r"us showed [Js Th] and won (14820) with two pair, Jacks and SixesSeat 8: dudeoflife21 folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 9: Henry Cairo folded before Flop (didn't bet)and I'm back to being an ultra shortstack. Gotta push with any 2 now. Edited by Assani Fisher

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