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WampusCat43

Tesla electric cars

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The rationale given for the regulation change that requires auto companies to sell through dealers is that it ensures consumer protection. If you believe this, Gov. Christie has a bridge closure he wants to sell you! -Elon Musk

It boggles my mind that Christie is considered a conservative to anyone.

How many state politicians anywhere would be willing to nuke the dealership system?

This. Go to any small town America and the guy that owns the Ford, Chevy, Toyota, and Honda store is the guy who supports the local football team, keeps the newspaper in business, and sponsors the local 5K run. I hate dealer franchise laws, but I don't see the system going away.
Who was asking anyone to blow up the dealer system?U

You can sell Teslas in Illinois but I still see dealers everywhere.

If Tesla gets around a franchise system, other manufacturers will want to consider. The biggest benefit of a dealership for a manufacturer is that they own the inventory. Having 250K cars on the ground that are paid for by someone else frees up a lot of cash for the manufacturer.

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The rationale given for the regulation change that requires auto companies to sell through dealers is that it ensures consumer protection. If you believe this, Gov. Christie has a bridge closure he wants to sell you! -Elon Musk

It boggles my mind that Christie is considered a conservative to anyone.

How many state politicians anywhere would be willing to nuke the dealership system?

This. Go to any small town America and the guy that owns the Ford, Chevy, Toyota, and Honda store is the guy who supports the local football team, keeps the newspaper in business, and sponsors the local 5K run. I hate dealer franchise laws, but I don't see the system going away.
Who was asking anyone to blow up the dealer system?U

You can sell Teslas in Illinois but I still see dealers everywhere.

If Tesla gets around a franchise system, other manufacturers will want to consider. The biggest benefit of a dealership for a manufacturer is that they own the inventory. Having 250K cars on the ground that are paid for by someone else frees up a lot of cash for the manufacturer.

If it benefits the manufacturer, why would they consider going the Tesla route?

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The rationale given for the regulation change that requires auto companies to sell through dealers is that it ensures consumer protection. If you believe this, Gov. Christie has a bridge closure he wants to sell you! -Elon Musk

It boggles my mind that Christie is considered a conservative to anyone.

How many state politicians anywhere would be willing to nuke the dealership system?

This. Go to any small town America and the guy that owns the Ford, Chevy, Toyota, and Honda store is the guy who supports the local football team, keeps the newspaper in business, and sponsors the local 5K run. I hate dealer franchise laws, but I don't see the system going away.
Who was asking anyone to blow up the dealer system?U

You can sell Teslas in Illinois but I still see dealers everywhere.

If Tesla gets around a franchise system, other manufacturers will want to consider. The biggest benefit of a dealership for a manufacturer is that they own the inventory. Having 250K cars on the ground that are paid for by someone else frees up a lot of cash for the manufacturer.

If it benefits the manufacturer, why would they consider going the Tesla route?

Benefits to both. Tesla keeps more margin than other manufacturers currently. Long term, if they ever achieve any volume, I don't think their model is sustainable. But I am excited to watch.

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The rationale given for the regulation change that requires auto companies to sell through dealers is that it ensures consumer protection. If you believe this, Gov. Christie has a bridge closure he wants to sell you! -Elon Musk

It boggles my mind that Christie is considered a conservative to anyone.

How many state politicians anywhere would be willing to nuke the dealership system?

This. Go to any small town America and the guy that owns the Ford, Chevy, Toyota, and Honda store is the guy who supports the local football team, keeps the newspaper in business, and sponsors the local 5K run. I hate dealer franchise laws, but I don't see the system going away.
Who was asking anyone to blow up the dealer system?U

You can sell Teslas in Illinois but I still see dealers everywhere.

If Tesla gets around a franchise system, other manufacturers will want to consider. The biggest benefit of a dealership for a manufacturer is that they own the inventory. Having 250K cars on the ground that are paid for by someone else frees up a lot of cash for the manufacturer.

If it benefits the manufacturer, why would they consider going the Tesla route?

Benefits to both. Tesla keeps more margin than other manufacturers currently. Long term, if they ever achieve any volume, I don't think their model is sustainable. But I am excited to watch.

If the model isn't sustainable, why the need to ban it? Why not just let the business model fail on its own?

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From a political standpoint, how does Christie square this with his ideology?

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If the model isn't sustainable, why the need to ban it? Why not just let the business model fail on its own?

You mean...gasp...free market?

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Wife is due for a new car. Drives 70 miles a day for work. Ran across the Tesla Model S 2 weeks ago and just assumed it was too much money. To my surprise after figuring in $350/m gas savings, $7500 tax credit, and roughly $400/year in license fees, it's the same cost if not cheaper (I've checked insurance and the other costs also). Test driving one here in Phoenix June14th. If any of you own one, any regrets? What would you do differently? Any service issues? Thanks.

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Wife is due for a new car. Drives 70 miles a day for work. Ran across the Tesla Model S 2 weeks ago and just assumed it was too much money. To my surprise after figuring in $350/m gas savings, $7500 tax credit, and roughly $400/year in license fees, it's the same cost if not cheaper (I've checked insurance and the other costs also). Test driving one here in Phoenix June14th. If any of you own one, any regrets? What would you do differently? Any service issues? Thanks.

Not an owner, but I've driven one. Exceeded the hype, IMO. Would buy one in a heartbeat if I made Chet-money.

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Wife is due for a new car. Drives 70 miles a day for work. Ran across the Tesla Model S 2 weeks ago and just assumed it was too much money. To my surprise after figuring in $350/m gas savings, $7500 tax credit, and roughly $400/year in license fees, it's the same cost if not cheaper (I've checked insurance and the other costs also). Test driving one here in Phoenix June14th. If any of you own one, any regrets? What would you do differently? Any service issues? Thanks.

Not an owner, but I've driven one. Exceeded the hype, IMO. Would buy one in a heartbeat if I made Chet-money.

:thumbup: Drove one last week.

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Wife is due for a new car. Drives 70 miles a day for work. Ran across the Tesla Model S 2 weeks ago and just assumed it was too much money. To my surprise after figuring in $350/m gas savings, $7500 tax credit, and roughly $400/year in license fees, it's the same cost if not cheaper (I've checked insurance and the other costs also). Test driving one here in Phoenix June14th. If any of you own one, any regrets? What would you do differently? Any service issues? Thanks.

Not an owner, but I've driven one. Exceeded the hype, IMO. Would buy one in a heartbeat if I made Chet-money.

:thumbup: Drove one last week.

The longtime editor of Car and Driver said it is the finest automobile he has ever driven and it isn't close at all. If I had 5 grand sitting around I'd get on the waiting list for the Model X.

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Wife is due for a new car. Drives 70 miles a day for work. Ran across the Tesla Model S 2 weeks ago and just assumed it was too much money. To my surprise after figuring in $350/m gas savings, $7500 tax credit, and roughly $400/year in license fees, it's the same cost if not cheaper (I've checked insurance and the other costs also). Test driving one here in Phoenix June14th. If any of you own one, any regrets? What would you do differently? Any service issues? Thanks.

Not an owner, but I've driven one. Exceeded the hype, IMO. Would buy one in a heartbeat if I made Chet-money.

:thumbup: Drove one last week.

The longtime editor of Car and Driver said it is the finest automobile he has ever driven and it isn't close at all. If I had 5 grand sitting around I'd get on the waiting list for the Model X.

Is there a 2ndary market for a spot on the waiting list?

I have 5k, but not the 80-90k the Model X will cost. Are people flipping their spots in line for $?

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it's the same cost if not cheaper

as what?

Yeah, I'm seriously doubting you recoup your money on this. You probably save 8 cents a mile or so compared to a 40 MPG hybrid. That's about 8K after 100,000 miles.

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it's the same cost if not cheaper

as what?
Yeah, I'm seriously doubting you recoup your money on this. You probably save 8 cents a mile or so compared to a 40 MPG hybrid. That's about 8K after 100,000 miles.

A model s gets one mile per 2 cents of energy cost at the moment. Or about $60 to drive from Los Angeles to New York.

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it's the same cost if not cheaper

as what?
Yeah, I'm seriously doubting you recoup your money on this. You probably save 8 cents a mile or so compared to a 40 MPG hybrid. That's about 8K after 100,000 miles.

A model s gets one mile per 2 cents of energy cost at the moment. Or about $60 to drive from Los Angeles to New York.

Exactly. And a 40 MPG hybrid costs 10 cents a mile at $4 / gallon. 8 cents a mile, or 8K after 100K. It's the same deal with my Energi, but I'll actually recoup my investment.

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Well, there are some other advantages to an S over a Prius anyway.

I'm arguing strictly from a cost perspective. There are other advantages, but you're paying quite a bit of money for them.

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Well, there are some other advantages to an S over a Prius anyway.

I'm arguing strictly from a cost perspective. There are other advantages, but you're paying quite a bit of money for them.

Sure. But people pay more for a Mercedes than a Honda too. Not saying it's right or wrong.

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And I would prefer a Tesla to my car, I currently plan for my next car to be a Tesla. But there is a hefty premium and I couldn't afford that this go around.

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Well, there are some other advantages to an S over a Prius anyway.

I'm arguing strictly from a cost perspective. There are other advantages, but you're paying quite a bit of money for them.

Sure. But people pay more for a Mercedes than a Honda too. Not saying it's right or wrong.

I'm not either, but the jump from Mercedes to Tesla probably costs way more than the jump from Honda to Mercedes even after the government gives you 7.5k and you save whatever in fuel expenses.

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Well, there are some other advantages to an S over a Prius anyway.

I'm arguing strictly from a cost perspective. There are other advantages, but you're paying quite a bit of money for them.
Sure. But people pay more for a Mercedes than a Honda too. Not saying it's right or wrong.
I'm not either, but the jump from Mercedes to Tesla probably costs way more than the jump from Honda to Mercedes even after the government gives you 7.5k and you save whatever in fuel expenses.

I though the S started around 65.

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Well, there are some other advantages to an S over a Prius anyway.

I'm arguing strictly from a cost perspective. There are other advantages, but you're paying quite a bit of money for them.
Sure. But people pay more for a Mercedes than a Honda too. Not saying it's right or wrong.
I'm not either, but the jump from Mercedes to Tesla probably costs way more than the jump from Honda to Mercedes even after the government gives you 7.5k and you save whatever in fuel expenses.

I though the S started around 65.

The whimpy one that doesn't get the long range or Johnny blaze ####. Why spend that kind of scratch for the entry level?

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Well, there are some other advantages to an S over a Prius anyway.

I'm arguing strictly from a cost perspective. There are other advantages, but you're paying quite a bit of money for them.
Sure. But people pay more for a Mercedes than a Honda too. Not saying it's right or wrong.
I'm not either, but the jump from Mercedes to Tesla probably costs way more than the jump from Honda to Mercedes even after the government gives you 7.5k and you save whatever in fuel expenses.
I though the S started around 65.
The whimpy one that doesn't get the long range or Johnny blaze ####. Why spend that kind of scratch for the entry level?

200 miles right? Doesn't seem that bad.

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All good points. Current nut for wife's car is $750/m + about $350-400/m in fuel costs. Never thought I'd even consider a $80-90k vehicle, but even at $1,000/m loan, with no fuel/maintenance to speak of, we're saving money. I could also sure use the $7,500 tax credit for 2014. And I pay in quarterly so that $7,500 will come in handy. I could get her a Prius and save a boatload, that's what most do in my neighborhood. But she's more of a BMW/Infiniti driver than a Toyota/Buick/Honda driver. Still is quite the mind ##### to spend $80-90k on a car, my first house wasn't that much.

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Well, there are some other advantages to an S over a Prius anyway.

I'm arguing strictly from a cost perspective. There are other advantages, but you're paying quite a bit of money for them.
Sure. But people pay more for a Mercedes than a Honda too. Not saying it's right or wrong.
I'm not either, but the jump from Mercedes to Tesla probably costs way more than the jump from Honda to Mercedes even after the government gives you 7.5k and you save whatever in fuel expenses.
I though the S started around 65.
The whimpy one that doesn't get the long range or Johnny blaze ####. Why spend that kind of scratch for the entry level?

200 miles right? Doesn't seem that bad.

I guess - but I can't see buying this car and not dumping an extra 10K to bump the battery 50%. And it's going 0-60 in 5.9 in that version too. All that so I can strap some limits on my driving patterns? No thanks.

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Fair enough. By all accounts it is an exceptional car to drive at any level.

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All good points. Current nut for wife's car is $750/m + about $350-400/m in fuel costs. Never thought I'd even consider a $80-90k vehicle, but even at $1,000/m loan, with no fuel/maintenance to speak of, we're saving money. I could also sure use the $7,500 tax credit for 2014. And I pay in quarterly so that $7,500 will come in handy. I could get her a Prius and save a boatload, that's what most do in my neighborhood. But she's more of a BMW/Infiniti driver than a Toyota/Buick/Honda driver. Still is quite the mind ##### to spend $80-90k on a car, my first house wasn't that much.

Just can't see this saving money, I think you're missing on your math somewhere but they are sweet cars and pure electric driving is completely awesome. If you can afford it, I'm totally with you. It's fun, you only live once. I want one the second I feel I can afford one. But I just don't see where these save money in any mathematical calculation.

Edited by DrJ

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It isn't about saving compared to other options. If so, the honda civic would be the best selling car on earth.

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All good points. Current nut for wife's car is $750/m + about $350-400/m in fuel costs. Never thought I'd even consider a $80-90k vehicle, but even at $1,000/m loan, with no fuel/maintenance to speak of, we're saving money. I could also sure use the $7,500 tax credit for 2014. And I pay in quarterly so that $7,500 will come in handy. I could get her a Prius and save a boatload, that's what most do in my neighborhood. But she's more of a BMW/Infiniti driver than a Toyota/Buick/Honda driver. Still is quite the mind ##### to spend $80-90k on a car, my first house wasn't that much.

Just can't see this saving money, I think you're missing on your math somewhere but they are sweet cars and pure electric driving is completely awesome. If you can afford it, I'm totally with you. It's fun, you only live once. I want one the second I feel I can afford one. But I just don't see where these save money in any mathematical calculation.

Exactly... Stupid on every level if we're not already maxing investments, refi'd into a 15 year mortgage, covering all bases with insurance, kids college funds, etc... but that's all done and we're paying a $1100-1200/m now for her auto expenses, the purchase actually saves us money from OUR CURRENT scenario. Paying cash for a Honda Civic and saving an extra $1,000/m into some S&P 500 fund is probably the smart move, but seriously those Tesla reviews are glowing. Highest Car and Driver review in history! Why the hell not if we can afford it?

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Ready to get a new car later this year and have seen these pop up recently. Someone mentioned that there may be a big up front cost on top of the car and asked about the electric bill overtaking the gas savings.

What is the cost adder to your electric bill?

Is there any renovations you need to do to your house to be able to plug in?

Sorry if this was noted above, missed it in my skimming thru...

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What's his argument that this decision will increase shareholder value?

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What's his argument that this decision will increase shareholder value?

My guess is that if there's more EV brands and they become more popular, that will benefit Tesla as they make the best EVs and more people will choose them.

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I think the argument is that Tesla needs more sales, and being a great car in a small niche isn't going to cut it for the company. If I were holding TSLA stock, I wouldn't think this is very good news at all. Seems like a hail mary. Sales are plateauing, especially here in the US. I believe they delivered something like 400 less cars last quarter than the quarter before it, even with international expansion. Tesla stock is Elon's piggy bank, and if they can't meaningfully increase cars sold Tesla is in trouble. The capital needed for this operation is staggering.

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I think the argument is that Tesla needs more sales, and being a great car in a small niche isn't going to cut it for the company. If I were holding TSLA stock, I wouldn't think this is very good news at all. Seems like a hail mary. Sales are plateauing, especially here in the US. I believe they delivered something like 400 less cars last quarter than the quarter before it, even with international expansion. Tesla stock is Elon's piggy bank, and if they can't meaningfully increase cars sold Tesla is in trouble. The capital needed for this operation is staggering.

One of the bottlenecks is the lithium batteries that Tesla is currently building a gigafactory for. Let the competitors try and take advantage of Tesla's patents, odds are they can't execute a car as elegant as the Model S. And if they do, they'll have to go to Tesla for the most expensive component.

I've only read Musk's blog, he doesn't reveal what patents they've made public. I'm sure anything to do with the car will, their process for building the batteries probably not. This could go down like when Gates decided to keep the rights to the software and let the hardware proliferate.

Edited by Steed

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I think the argument is that Tesla needs more sales, and being a great car in a small niche isn't going to cut it for the company. If I were holding TSLA stock, I wouldn't think this is very good news at all. Seems like a hail mary. Sales are plateauing, especially here in the US. I believe they delivered something like 400 less cars last quarter than the quarter before it, even with international expansion. Tesla stock is Elon's piggy bank, and if they can't meaningfully increase cars sold Tesla is in trouble. The capital needed for this operation is staggering.

One of the bottlenecks is the lithium batteries that Tesla is currently building a gigafactory for. Let the competitors try and take advantage of Tesla's patents, odds are they can't execute a car as elegant as the Model S. And if they do, they'll have to go to Tesla for the most expensive component.

If they make it that far. The gigafactory will be a huge drain on the company in terms of focus and capital. I think in 5 years, either Tesla will be bk or someone will buy them out. A Google/Tesla marriage would seem to make sense; GOOG has deep pockets and have automotive ambitions. The inflated stock price has allowed Tesla to raise capital to this point. As soon as the pps tumbles, and it will, I can see Tesla unravelling fairly quickly.

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I think the argument is that Tesla needs more sales, and being a great car in a small niche isn't going to cut it for the company. If I were holding TSLA stock, I wouldn't think this is very good news at all. Seems like a hail mary. Sales are plateauing, especially here in the US. I believe they delivered something like 400 less cars last quarter than the quarter before it, even with international expansion. Tesla stock is Elon's piggy bank, and if they can't meaningfully increase cars sold Tesla is in trouble. The capital needed for this operation is staggering.

One of the bottlenecks is the lithium batteries that Tesla is currently building a gigafactory for. Let the competitors try and take advantage of Tesla's patents, odds are they can't execute a car as elegant as the Model S. And if they do, they'll have to go to Tesla for the most expensive component.

If they make it that far. The gigafactory will be a huge drain on the company in terms of focus and capital. I think in 5 years, either Tesla will be bk or someone will buy them out. A Google/Tesla marriage would seem to make sense; GOOG has deep pockets and have automotive ambitions. The inflated stock price has allowed Tesla to raise capital to this point. As soon as the pps tumbles, and it will, I can see Tesla unravelling fairly quickly.

Once Tesla comes out with a mid 30k/low 40k BMW 3 series competitor, sales will soar. They're building that factory in preparation for that model.

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IMO, there have to be multiple players in a technology for the technology to succeed. If there is only one company, people won't believe the technology is legit. If there are two competing companies, people are more likely to see the value.

Tesla opening up their patents is about growing the pie. Their problem is getting wide-spread adoption and associated infrastructure. Having viable competition helps that process along.

That's my take anyhow; I don't follow any of this closely but found the releasing of patents bit interesting.

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Wife and I test drove one in Scottsdale yesterday. Bar none best car I've ever driven. Acceleration was instantaneous and neck snapping. Like it or not, electric cars are the future. Pricing and competition need to evolve, that's why Elon opened up his patents last week. What a car.

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Tax guys? It isy understanding that AMT pretty much cancels out the $7500 tax credit you get with a Tesla. Correct or incorrect?

ETA this is incorrect. The $7,500 tax credit is still useable even when AMT. That is awesome.

Edited by -jb-

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Came close to putting down a deposit on one of these, in particular the SUV they have coming out. The range issue concerns me only because my in laws would be on the cusp, but we don't visit that often and could take the other car when we do.

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Came close to putting down a deposit on one of these, in particular the SUV they have coming out. The range issue concerns me only because my in laws would be on the cusp, but we don't visit that often and could take the other car when we do.

The deposit for X is five grand. I am absolutely getting in line as soon as the bucks start rolling in at the new job.

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Came close to putting down a deposit on one of these, in particular the SUV they have coming out. The range issue concerns me only because my in laws would be on the cusp, but we don't visit that often and could take the other car when we do.

The deposit for X is five grand. I am absolutely getting in line as soon as the bucks start rolling in at the new job.

Yup. I was at the showroom in my local mall, almost cut a check.

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Came close to putting down a deposit on one of these, in particular the SUV they have coming out. The range issue concerns me only because my in laws would be on the cusp, but we don't visit that often and could take the other car when we do.

Are they on the cusp for round trip? If so, get a free partial while you're there.

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See an average of five per day on my commute each way. More young people are driving them as well, saw two being driven my girls in their early 20's.

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