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NL MVP--Howard or Pujols? (1 Viewer)

D

DCThunder

Footballguy
So who's the NL MVP, Ryan Howard or Albert Pujols? Or someone else (Carlos Beltran or some other Met).

If the Phillies somehow got the NL wildcard, my vote would have to go to Howard. The man has carried the Phils on his back since mid-July when they dumped salary and essentially gave up on the season, but some how they're in the thick of the wildcard chase in late September. Pujols had a great start, got hurt, but has played well since, but the Cards have underperformed all season.

 
I'm a huge Cardinals fan...and I'd vote for Howard. Dude has done an amazing, amazing job of carrying that team into contention.

 
I am a huge Mets fan and I cannot imagine anybody but Howard getting this recognition.

You can start engraving if the Phils get the WC.....

 
Two weeks ago, Howard was the easy choice, but he has cooled some.

If he reaches 60 homers, 150 RBIs, and keeps his average over .300, there's no way to keep it from him. It will be one of the top five best offensive seasons of all-time.

 
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JuniorNB said:
Two weeks ago, Howard was the easy choice, but he has cooled some.

If he reaches 60 homers, 150 RBIs, and keeps his average over .300, there's no way to keep it from him. It will be one of the top five best offensive seasons of all-time.
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actually, his average is higher.. HR's haven't gone up, because nobody will pitch to him anymore
 
Howard has more HR's and RBI's than Pujols. That's it.

Pujols is hitting about .160 points with RISP.

Pujols has more runs scored, a better slugging percentage, and a better on-base percentage.

Howard has struck out almost 4 times as many times as Pujols.

Pujols has a lot more walkoff hits this year.

Pujols has twice as many game-winning RBI's.

Pujols has had to carry the offense all year, as many of the key players have missed signficant time due to injury.

Still not convinced? Okay, this should clear it all up...

Before yesterday:

Pujols has 80 RBI's out of 116 AB's with RISP. The 80 RBI's with RISP is 5th highest in the NL. The 116 AB's is 51st highest in the NL. Can you say making the most of his opportunities?

Howard, on the other hand, has 74 RBI's out of 154 AB's with RISP.

Translation, despite having 38 LESS AB's with RISP than Howard, Pujols has 7 more RBI's in those situations.

It is easy to get caught up in the emotion of an emerging star like Howard and declare him the MVP, but when taking everything into account, Pujols should be the clear-cut winner.

 
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Bob Sacamano said:
E-Z Glider said:
Bob Sacamano said:
Tough As Nails said:
I'm a huge Cardinals fan...and I'd vote for Howard. Dude has done an amazing, amazing job of carrying that team into contention.
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Me too - on all fronts. And it doesn't matter to me if they make the playoffs. The guy deserves it regardless.
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:goodposting: (of course, I am a Phils Phan :D )
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As a Phil, I'd like to thank you for your support.
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:thumbup: I call many of my good friends Phil... "Hey, Phil that up and pass it my way".
 
Ghost Rider said:
Howard has more HR's and RBI's than Pujols. That's it.Pujols is hitting about .160 points with RISP. Pujols has more runs scored, a better slugging percentage, and a better on-base percentage. Howard has struck out almost 4 times as many times as Pujols.Pujols has a lot more walkoff hits this year. Pujols has twice as many game-winning RBI's. Pujols has had to carry the offense all year, as many of the key players have missed signficant time due to injury. Still not convinced? Okay, this should clear it all up...Before yesterday:Pujols has 80 RBI's out of 116 AB's with RISP. The 80 RBI's with RISP is 5th highest in the NL. The 116 AB's is 51st highest in the NL. Can you say making the most of his opportunities?Howard, on the other hand, has 74 RBI's out of 154 AB's with RISP.Translation, despite having 38 LESS AB's with RISP than Howard, Pujols has 7 more RBI's in those situations.It is easy to get caught up in the emotion of an emerging star like Howard and declare him the MVP, but when taking everything into account, Pujols should be the clear-cut winner.
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This is like the Ortiz debate. Where did you get that walk off number? "a lot more" :) . It is pretty obvious to most people the race is between Howard and Pujols. Who means more to their team? Both mean a ton. Could easily go either way.
 
Ghost Rider said:
Howard has more HR's and RBI's than Pujols. That's it.Pujols is hitting about .160 points with RISP.Pujols has more runs scored, a better slugging percentage, and a better on-base percentage. Howard has struck out almost 4 times as many times as Pujols.Pujols has a lot more walkoff hits this year. Pujols has twice as many game-winning RBI's. Pujols has had to carry the offense all year, as many of the key players have missed signficant time due to injury. Still not convinced? Okay, this should clear it all up...Before yesterday:Pujols has 80 RBI's out of 116 AB's with RISP. The 80 RBI's with RISP is 5th highest in the NL. The 116 AB's is 51st highest in the NL. Can you say making the most of his opportunities?Howard, on the other hand, has 74 RBI's out of 154 AB's with RISP.Translation, despite having 38 LESS AB's with RISP than Howard, Pujols has 7 more RBI's in those situations.It is easy to get caught up in the emotion of an emerging star like Howard and declare him the MVP, but when taking everything into account, Pujols should be the clear-cut winner.
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If Howard is ahead of him in total RBIs, then does that mean that Howard is getting his RBIs as either solo HR or when a runner is on 1st?
 
Philly Sports Dude said:
This is like the Ortiz debate. Where did you get that walk off number? "a lot more" :) . It is pretty obvious to most people the race is between Howard and Pujols. Who means more to their team? Both mean a ton. Could easily go either way.
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Okay, take out the walkoff part and address all of the other stats I put forth. Even though walkoff and GWRBI's are not official stats anymore, is there anyone who is going to say that Pujols hasn't been a lot more clutch in late inning situations than Howard or practically any other MLBer this year, except for Ortiz? Let's say two players numbers are even across the board (which can be argue that Pujols and Howard's numbers are, when looking at numbers besides just HR's and RBI's). If one player is the definition of clutch, moreso than any other player in their league, how can he not be the MVP?If one player is tremendous with guys in scoring position, and another guy is not, who would you say is more valuable?
bryhamm said:
If Howard is ahead of him in total RBIs, then does that mean that Howard is getting his RBIs as either solo HR or when a runner is on 1st?
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It would appear so.
 
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Ghost Rider said:
Philly Sports Dude said:
This is like the Ortiz debate. Where did you get that walk off number? "a lot more" :) . It is pretty obvious to most people the race is between Howard and Pujols. Who means more to their team? Both mean a ton. Could easily go either way.
Click to expand...
Okay, take out the walkoff part and address all of the other stats I put forth. Even though walkoff and GWRBI's are not official stats anymore, is there anyone who is going to say that Pujols hasn't been a lot more clutch in late inning situations than Howard or practically any other MLBer this year, except for Ortiz? Let's say two players numbers are even across the board (which can be argue that Pujols and Howard's numbers are, when looking at numbers besides just HR's and RBI's). If one player is the definition of clutch, moreso than any other player in their league, how can he not be the MVP?
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You know what your stats and arguments show? And I'm as guilty as anybody here...it shows how far expectations go toward determining 'value'. Pujols has done this consistently for awhile now. He is expected to be clutch, to drive in runs, to play solid D...in short...he's expected to be one of the top 2 or 3 players in the game. So when he is...people kind of shrug and say, "Pujols is great again. Ho hum." When a young guy like Howard comes up and takes the league by storm, people say, "Holy ####. This dude is amazing. He's putting up ridiculous numbers for a contender. MVP right there."
 
Ghost Rider said:
Philly Sports Dude said:
This is like the Ortiz debate. Where did you get that walk off number? "a lot more" :) . It is pretty obvious to most people the race is between Howard and Pujols. Who means more to their team? Both mean a ton. Could easily go either way.
Click to expand...
Okay, take out the walkoff part and address all of the other stats I put forth. Even though walkoff and GWRBI's are not official stats anymore, is there anyone who is going to say that Pujols hasn't been a lot more clutch in late inning situations than Howard or practically any other MLBer this year, except for Ortiz? Let's say two players numbers are even across the board (which can be argue that Pujols and Howard's numbers are, when looking at numbers besides just HR's and RBI's). If one player is the definition of clutch, moreso than any other player in their league, how can he not be the MVP?
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Honestly, you are probably better debating the other numbers. I think Howard is viewed as more clutch right now. Opposing teams are afraid to pitch to him late in games now. Right now the momentum is behind Howard IMO. That said, both are having killer seasons. I would have a tough time making a decision.
 
Not factored into those numbers is that Pujols is protected in the lineup by Scott Rolen. While he isn't what he used to be, he's still a lot more respected as a hitter than anyone the Phillies have protecting Howard.

Ryan Howard has been consistenly pitched around in key situations all year, and even moreso as the year has gone on. That's what happens when the 5th and 6th spots are occupied by guys like a disappointing Pat Burrell and Jeff Conine. At the beginning of the year, Howard was batting 6th, BEHIND Burrell and ahead of Lieberthal and Bell.

 
Tough As Nails said:
You know what your stats and arguments show? And I'm as guilty as anybody here...it shows how far expectations go toward determining 'value'. Pujols has done this consistently for awhile now. He is expected to be clutch, to drive in runs, to play solid D...in short...he's expected to be one of the top 2 or 3 players in the game. So when he is...people kind of shrug and say, "Pujols is great again. Ho hum." When a young guy like Howard comes up and takes the league by storm, people say, "Holy ####. This dude is amazing. He's putting up ridiculous numbers for a contender. MVP right there."
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Thank you. With Pujols, it is expected. No one expected Howard to do what he has done this year.
Philly Sports Dude said:
Honestly, you are probably better debating the other numbers. I think Howard is viewed as more clutch right now.
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No way. If you polled 100 NL pitchers and asked them who they would rather face in the bottom of the 9th of a game, with a one-run lead, the bases loaded, and two out, I would bet money that at least 70 of them would say they would rather face Howard.
 
Ghost Rider said:
Philly Sports Dude said:
This is like the Ortiz debate. Where did you get that walk off number? "a lot more" :) .

It is pretty obvious to most people the race is between Howard and Pujols. Who means more to their team? Both mean a ton. Could easily go either way.
Click to expand...
Okay, take out the walkoff part and address all of the other stats I put forth. Even though walkoff and GWRBI's are not official stats anymore, is there anyone who is going to say that Pujols hasn't been a lot more clutch in late inning situations than Howard or practically any other MLBer this year, except for Ortiz?

Let's say two players numbers are even across the board (which can be argue that Pujols and Howard's numbers are, when looking at numbers besides just HR's and RBI's). If one player is the definition of clutch, moreso than any other player in their league, how can he not be the MVP?

If one player is tremendous with guys in scoring position, and another guy is not, who would you say is more valuable?

bryhamm said:
If Howard is ahead of him in total RBIs, then does that mean that Howard is getting his RBIs as either solo HR or when a runner is on 1st?
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It would appear so.
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Why is it only "clutch" when its late in the game? One thing I have heard over and over the past month is the fact that an unusually high percentage of Howard's HR's have either tied the game or put the Phils ahead. Wouldnt you consider that pretty "clutch" no matter what stage of the game its at?
 
Ghost Rider said:
Tough As Nails said:
You know what your stats and arguments show? And I'm as guilty as anybody here...it shows how far expectations go toward determining 'value'. Pujols has done this consistently for awhile now. He is expected to be clutch, to drive in runs, to play solid D...in short...he's expected to be one of the top 2 or 3 players in the game. So when he is...people kind of shrug and say, "Pujols is great again. Ho hum." When a young guy like Howard comes up and takes the league by storm, people say, "Holy ####. This dude is amazing. He's putting up ridiculous numbers for a contender. MVP right there."
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Thank you. With Pujols, it is expected. No one expected Howard to do what he has done this year.
Philly Sports Dude said:
Honestly, you are probably better debating the other numbers. I think Howard is viewed as more clutch right now.
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No way. If you polled 100 NL pitchers and asked them who they would rather face in the bottom of the 9th of a game, with a one-run lead, the bases loaded, and two out, I would bet money that at least 70 of them would say they would rather face Howard.
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:lmao: Better stick to the stats. That is THE worst argument I have ever read.
 
Steelers4Life said:
Not factored into those numbers is that Pujols is protected in the lineup by Scott Rolen. While he isn't what he used to be, he's still a lot more respected as a hitter than anyone the Phillies have protecting Howard.
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Do you mean the Scott Rolen, who has hit .260 since the All-Star break?
Steelers4Life said:
Ryan Howard has been consistenly pitched around in key situations all year, and even moreso as the year has gone on.
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And you don't think Pujols hasn't been, as well? Howards has been walked ten more times than Pujols has, but remember that Pujols missed three weeks back in June, so it is really about even. Both guys are pitched around a ton.
 
E-Z Glider said:
Why is it only "clutch" when its late in the game? One thing I have heard over and over the past month is the fact that an unusually high percentage of Howard's HR's have either tied the game or put the Phils ahead. Wouldnt you consider that pretty "clutch" no matter what stage of the game its at?
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Yes.
E-Z Glider said:
Ghost Rider said:
No way. If you polled 100 NL pitchers and asked them who they would rather face in the bottom of the 9th of a game, with a one-run lead, the bases loaded, and two out, I would bet money that at least 70 of them would say they would rather face Howard.
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:lmao: Better stick to the stats. That is THE worst argument I have ever read.
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So you disagree? You think pitchers would rather face Pujols than Howard in a situation like that? Yes, it is a hypothetical situation that we have no real answer for, but I think it is a safe assumption. I can go to just looking at stats again, if you like. Pujols comes out ahead there, too. :)
 
Ghost Rider said:
E-Z Glider said:
Why is it only "clutch" when its late in the game? One thing I have heard over and over the past month is the fact that an unusually high percentage of Howard's HR's have either tied the game or put the Phils ahead. Wouldnt you consider that pretty "clutch" no matter what stage of the game its at?
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Yes.
E-Z Glider said:
Ghost Rider said:
No way. If you polled 100 NL pitchers and asked them who they would rather face in the bottom of the 9th of a game, with a one-run lead, the bases loaded, and two out, I would bet money that at least 70 of them would say they would rather face Howard.
Click to expand...
:lmao: Better stick to the stats. That is THE worst argument I have ever read.
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So you disagree? You think pitchers would rather face Pujols than Howard in a situation like that? Yes, it is a hypothetical situation that we have no real answer for, but I think it is a safe assumption. I can go to just looking at stats again, if you like. Pujols comes out ahead there, too. :)
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There may be one pitcher in the league who actually makes that call during a game (Clemens). Pujols is a more complete hitter, but the momentum is behind Howard right now.

 
Ghost Rider said:
E-Z Glider said:
Why is it only "clutch" when its late in the game? One thing I have heard over and over the past month is the fact that an unusually high percentage of Howard's HR's have either tied the game or put the Phils ahead. Wouldnt you consider that pretty "clutch" no matter what stage of the game its at?
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Yes.
E-Z Glider said:
Ghost Rider said:
No way. If you polled 100 NL pitchers and asked them who they would rather face in the bottom of the 9th of a game, with a one-run lead, the bases loaded, and two out, I would bet money that at least 70 of them would say they would rather face Howard.
Click to expand...
:lmao: Better stick to the stats. That is THE worst argument I have ever read.
Click to expand...
So you disagree? You think pitchers would rather face Pujols than Howard in a situation like that? Yes, it is a hypothetical situation that we have no real answer for, but I think it is a safe assumption. I can go to just looking at stats again, if you like. Pujols comes out ahead there, too. :)
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Has Pujols ever been intentionally walked to lead off a 9th inning in a tie game?
 
Ghost Rider said:
Philly Sports Dude said:
This is like the Ortiz debate. Where did you get that walk off number? "a lot more" :) . It is pretty obvious to most people the race is between Howard and Pujols. Who means more to their team? Both mean a ton. Could easily go either way.
Click to expand...
Okay, take out the walkoff part and address all of the other stats I put forth. Even though walkoff and GWRBI's are not official stats anymore, is there anyone who is going to say that Pujols hasn't been a lot more clutch in late inning situations than Howard or practically any other MLBer this year, except for Ortiz? Let's say two players numbers are even across the board (which can be argue that Pujols and Howard's numbers are, when looking at numbers besides just HR's and RBI's). If one player is the definition of clutch, moreso than any other player in their league, how can he not be the MVP?If one player is tremendous with guys in scoring position, and another guy is not, who would you say is more valuable?
bryhamm said:
If Howard is ahead of him in total RBIs, then does that mean that Howard is getting his RBIs as either solo HR or when a runner is on 1st?
Click to expand...
It would appear so.
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I didn't know RBI's didn't count if there weren't runners in scoring position.
 
Ghost Rider said:
Howard has more HR's and RBI's than Pujols. That's it.Pujols is hitting about .160 points with RISP.Pujols has more runs scored, a better slugging percentage, and a better on-base percentage. Howard has struck out almost 4 times as many times as Pujols.Pujols has a lot more walkoff hits this year. Pujols has twice as many game-winning RBI's. Pujols has had to carry the offense all year, as many of the key players have missed signficant time due to injury. Still not convinced? Okay, this should clear it all up...Before yesterday:Pujols has 80 RBI's out of 116 AB's with RISP. The 80 RBI's with RISP is 5th highest in the NL. The 116 AB's is 51st highest in the NL. Can you say making the most of his opportunities?Howard, on the other hand, has 74 RBI's out of 154 AB's with RISP.Translation, despite having 38 LESS AB's with RISP than Howard, Pujols has 7 more RBI's in those situations.It is easy to get caught up in the emotion of an emerging star like Howard and declare him the MVP, but when taking everything into account, Pujols should be the clear-cut winner.
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:goodposting: And, I :wub: Howard. But, Pujols is the MVP. Sorry, but it's just the way it is.
 
There is not a debate here imo.

Howard easily.

This isnt the best player, nor even the best season award. Its the Most Valuable Player award. Howard may almost singlehandedly get the Phils a playoff birth.

 
Koya said:
There is not a debate here imo.

Howard easily.

This isnt the best player, nor even the best season award. Its the Most Valuable Player award. Howard may almost singlehandedly get the Phils a playoff birth.
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Just wondering how you think the Cards would fare w/out Pujols. Sure, they might make the playoffs, what with every other team in the Central performing below .500. But, Pujols has been so much of a player in close, big-time wins, much like Howard has, no doubt. And, St. Louis likely gets the #2 seed (not #3) because of Pujols, alone. Philly may not even make the playoffs.Pujols has...

Better OBP, SLG, BA. The Runs + RBIs are basically equal in 54 less at bats for Pujols. He's added six SBs to his resume (Howard = 0), and he at puts the ball in play far more than Howard (44Ks to 170). :shock:

Howard is hyped because he's the new thing. And, that's great because he IS great.

Once the dust settles, Pujols is having the better year and is contributing more to the Cards' success than Howard is. These are the facts, and they are indisputable.

 
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cobalt_27 said:
Koya said:
There is not a debate here imo.

Howard easily.

This isnt the best player, nor even the best season award. Its the Most Valuable Player award. Howard may almost singlehandedly get the Phils a playoff birth.
Click to expand...
Just wondering how you think the Cards would fare w/out Pujols. Sure, they might make the playoffs, what with every other team in the Central performing below .500. But, Pujols has been so much of a player in close, big-time wins, much like Howard has, no doubt. And, St. Louis likely gets the #2 seed (not #3) because of Pujols, alone. Philly may not even make the playoffs.Pujols has...

Better OBP, SLG, BA. The Runs + RBIs are basically equal in 54 less at bats for Pujols. He's added six SBs to his resume (Howard = 0), and he at puts the ball in play far more than Howard (44Ks to 170). :shock:

Howard is hyped because he's the new thing. And, that's great because he IS great.

Once the dust settles, Pujols is having the better year and is contributing more to the Cards' success than Howard is. Just the way it is.
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Howard has singlehandedly taken a team on his back, brought them from past the brink of extinction, and has them perched for a playoff berch.I won't deny that Pujols is not the better hitter, nor the better player. He is both.

But this is Howards MVP. MVP is not just the best, not just the numbers. It is the impact. While yes, St. Louis would be sigificantly worse without Pujols, Howard can not in any way be replaced for what he has done for his team, this year.

 
Koya said:
cobalt_27 said:
Koya said:
There is not a debate here imo.

Howard easily.

This isnt the best player, nor even the best season award. Its the Most Valuable Player award. Howard may almost singlehandedly get the Phils a playoff birth.
Click to expand...
Just wondering how you think the Cards would fare w/out Pujols. Sure, they might make the playoffs, what with every other team in the Central performing below .500. But, Pujols has been so much of a player in close, big-time wins, much like Howard has, no doubt. And, St. Louis likely gets the #2 seed (not #3) because of Pujols, alone. Philly may not even make the playoffs.Pujols has...

Better OBP, SLG, BA. The Runs + RBIs are basically equal in 54 less at bats for Pujols. He's added six SBs to his resume (Howard = 0), and he at puts the ball in play far more than Howard (44Ks to 170). :shock:

Howard is hyped because he's the new thing. And, that's great because he IS great.

Once the dust settles, Pujols is having the better year and is contributing more to the Cards' success than Howard is. Just the way it is.
Click to expand...
Howard has singlehandedly taken a team on his back, brought them from past the brink of extinction, and has them perched for a playoff berch.I won't deny that Pujols is not the better hitter, nor the better player. He is both.

But this is Howards MVP. MVP is not just the best, not just the numbers. It is the impact. While yes, St. Louis would be sigificantly worse without Pujols, Howard can not in any way be replaced for what he has done for his team, this year.
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Maybe we're just at a point where the names of Howard and Pujols could be interchangeable no matter what we say. I agree with you about Howard. I also submit that the exact same thing could be said of Pujols and the effect he's had on his team. The numbers for both are insane. I won't get too worked up if Howard wins it...I just err on the side of Pujols, I guess.
 
cobalt_27 said:
Koya said:
There is not a debate here imo.

Howard easily.

This isnt the best player, nor even the best season award. Its the Most Valuable Player award. Howard may almost singlehandedly get the Phils a playoff birth.
Click to expand...
Just wondering how you think the Cards would fare w/out Pujols. Sure, they might make the playoffs, what with every other team in the Central performing below .500. But, Pujols has been so much of a player in close, big-time wins, much like Howard has, no doubt. And, St. Louis likely gets the #2 seed (not #3) because of Pujols, alone. Philly may not even make the playoffs.Pujols has...

Better OBP, SLG, BA. The Runs + RBIs are basically equal in 54 less at bats for Pujols. He's added six SBs to his resume (Howard = 0), and he at puts the ball in play far more than Howard (44Ks to 170). :shock:

Howard is hyped because he's the new thing. And, that's great because he IS great.

Once the dust settles, Pujols is having the better year and is contributing more to the Cards' success than Howard is. These are the facts, and they are indisputable.
Click to expand...
Actually Howard is smoking Pujols on BABIP = Batting Average on Balls in Play. .355 to .287 and that is with his 170 Ks. The Runs Created/Game are within .5 run a game with a nod to Pujols.Cards are 80-70 with Pujols missing a bunch games. Phils are 79-73 with Howard only taking a couple games off. Would appear the Phils have needed Howard while Cards did fine while Pujols was hurt. The Cards had a bad streak this summer but if I remember correctly Pujols was playing so does not factor in.

Maybe we're just at a point where the names of Howard and Pujols could be interchangeable no matter what we say. I agree with you about Howard. I also submit that the exact same thing could be said of Pujols and the effect he's had on his team. The numbers for both are insane. I won't get too worked up if Howard wins it...I just err on the side of Pujols, I guess.
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I agree with you here. Except I would err on the side of Howard. :)
 
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If Howard doesn't get it after putting up one of the best non-steroid seasons in the history of the game it will be total bull####.

 
You can flip a coin on this one. Being a Cards' homer, I have to give a slight edge to Pujols. They both have had great years and been the only good stick in each team's lineup. Take away both of them, and the Phils and Cards would be nowhere near playoff contention right now. I think this is going to be a very close race for votes. Could be a tie ala 1979 when Hernandez and Stargell tied. That would be great! They both deserve the MVP.

 
Tough As Nails said:
I'm a huge Cardinals fan...and I'd vote for Howard. Dude has done an amazing, amazing job of carrying that team into contention.
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Same here. Howard has been hitting like a man possessed this year and, even after the Abreu/Lidle dump, the Phils are still in the thick of things.Pujols is hurt because of the solid talent around him doesn't mean that Pujols has to carry the Cards on his back, a la Howard and the Phillies.
 
MrPhoenix said:
Tough As Nails said:
I'm a huge Cardinals fan...and I'd vote for Howard. Dude has done an amazing, amazing job of carrying that team into contention.
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Same here. Howard has been hitting like a man possessed this year and, even after the Abreu/Lidle dump, the Phils are still in the thick of things.Pujols is hurt because of the solid talent around him doesn't mean that Pujols has to carry the Cards on his back, a la Howard and the Phillies.
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What/who on the Cards is appreciably better than what Howard has around him?
 
cobalt_27 said:
MrPhoenix said:
Tough As Nails said:
I'm a huge Cardinals fan...and I'd vote for Howard. Dude has done an amazing, amazing job of carrying that team into contention.
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Same here. Howard has been hitting like a man possessed this year and, even after the Abreu/Lidle dump, the Phils are still in the thick of things.Pujols is hurt because of the solid talent around him doesn't mean that Pujols has to carry the Cards on his back, a la Howard and the Phillies.
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What/who on the Cards is appreciably better than what Howard has around him?
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Carpenter, Rolen, and Edmonds are pretty solid. But then again, so are Utley, Rollins, and Burrell.I stand corrected.

 
MrPhoenix said:
cobalt_27 said:
MrPhoenix said:
Tough As Nails said:
I'm a huge Cardinals fan...and I'd vote for Howard. Dude has done an amazing, amazing job of carrying that team into contention.
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Same here. Howard has been hitting like a man possessed this year and, even after the Abreu/Lidle dump, the Phils are still in the thick of things.Pujols is hurt because of the solid talent around him doesn't mean that Pujols has to carry the Cards on his back, a la Howard and the Phillies.
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What/who on the Cards is appreciably better than what Howard has around him?
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Carpenter, Rolen, and Edmonds are pretty solid. But then again, so are Utley, Rollins, and Burrell.I stand corrected.
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Have you seen Rolen's numbers since the All-Star break? Or Edmonds play this season? You're basing that on reputation rather than performance. Sadly, if you want a point of reference for the talent surrounding Pujols, your best argument would have been Chris Duncan. God the playoffs are going to suck.
 
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Koya said:
There is not a debate here imo.Howard easily.This isnt the best player, nor even the best season award. Its the Most Valuable Player award. Howard may almost singlehandedly get the Phils a playoff birth.
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:goodposting:
 
' said:
LHUCKS said:
If Howard doesn't get it after putting up one of the best non-steroid seasons in the history of the game it will be total bull####.
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How do you know he isn't taking HGH?
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True, no one knows for sure, but In 2001 when Howard was signed out of college he was 6'4" 230lbs. He is now 6'4" and closer to 250lbs. From the pictures it looks like the only place he has added weight has been to his belly and ###.
 
Philly Sports Dude said:
Actually Howard is smoking Pujols on BABIP = Batting Average on Balls in Play. .355 to .287 and that is with his 170 Ks. The Runs Created/Game are within .5 run a game with a nod to Pujols.
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What the heck is this stat?? I've never heard of it and how is it calculated?
Philly Sports Dude said:
Cards are 80-70 with Pujols missing a bunch games. Phils are 79-73 with Howard only taking a couple games off. Would appear the Phils have needed Howard while Cards did fine while Pujols was hurt. The Cards had a bad streak this summer but if I remember correctly Pujols was playing so does not factor in.
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Pujols missed 14 games & they went 8-6 without him. A winning record, but their wins were against Milwaukee, Pittsburgh & the Rockies.
 
Jayrod said:
Philly Sports Dude said:
Actually Howard is smoking Pujols on BABIP = Batting Average on Balls in Play. .355 to .287 and that is with his 170 Ks. The Runs Created/Game are within .5 run a game with a nod to Pujols.
Click to expand...
What the heck is this stat?? I've never heard of it and how is it calculated?
Philly Sports Dude said:
Cards are 80-70 with Pujols missing a bunch games. Phils are 79-73 with Howard only taking a couple games off. Would appear the Phils have needed Howard while Cards did fine while Pujols was hurt. The Cards had a bad streak this summer but if I remember correctly Pujols was playing so does not factor in.
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Pujols missed 14 games & they went 8-6 without him. A winning record, but their wins were against Milwaukee, Pittsburgh & the Rockies.
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BABIP only counts results when a batter hits a fair ball. Since Howard struck out so often, his average will be a lot higher. Pujols doesn't strike out nearly as much, so his average could only be lower. It's a relatively useless stat IMO.
 
' said:
LHUCKS said:
If Howard doesn't get it after putting up one of the best non-steroid seasons in the history of the game it will be total bull####.
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How do you know he isn't taking HGH?
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Why do you care? NFL players have been using this for years and nobody says a word. In the NFL, a 19-year-old kid that is 350lbs. can run a 4.5 40 and have a 45-inch vertical leap? Wow. Awesome. What athletic ability. But if a 19-year-old kid hits 40 home runs, he's a steroid abuser in MLB.
 
Tough As Nails said:
' said:
LHUCKS said:
If Howard doesn't get it after putting up one of the best non-steroid seasons in the history of the game it will be total bull####.
Click to expand...
How do you know he isn't taking HGH?
Click to expand...
Why do you care? NFL players have been using this for years and nobody says a word. In the NFL, a 19-year-old kid that is 350lbs. can run a 4.5 40 and have a 45-inch vertical leap? Wow. Awesome. What athletic ability. But if a 19-year-old kid hits 40 home runs, he's a steroid abuser in MLB.
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I don't care, but if Bonds was doing the same stuff right now, people would be getting on his case calling him a cheater and such... Is the only difference is that Bonds is not liked?
 
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