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Dynasty Rankings (5 Viewers)

Let's talk Boldin more. Seems like a great time to buy him, if he is worth buying. Coming into the season, the sentiment was that he was elite because his PPG was superior to Fitz and he was very "tough" after recovering quickly from a brutal facial injury. Now the sentiment is that he's "brittle".

Seems like the Arizona offense of 2008 is not going to repeat itself. We also don't know where Boldin will be when his contract expires. y sense is that he's talented and, at 28, still in his prime.

I'd put him in the buy category if the price is right.

 
braylon edwards came up recently...

while i have immense respect for SSOG's dynasty acumen and insight, i respectfully disagree on edwards...

another way to parse the data is to throw out the games with the browns (looking like one of the most dysfunctional offenses in the league)... also, his second and third game with the Jets he seemed to miss Cotchery (causing Sanchez to at times force it into edwards, leading to INTs).

in his two games WITH cotchery, i think he has a combined 9-138-2... projected over 16 games = 72-1,104-16

not trying to cherry pick the data*, but i don't think there would be much disagreement edwards is in a better situation with NYJ than CLE, or that it is too controversial to suggest the presence of cotchery could be beneficial for him.

in his first game, which i think was the first or second since the merger when a WR started the following week after an in-season trade, he had a remarkable game, coming very close to 2-3 TDs (had one taken away by the officials, and missed a ball that wouldn't have necessarily been an easy catch, and would have come down on the 2-3 yard line of the dolphins if he had been able to make it).

in his last game, he showed a lot of strength, basically dragging two defenders into the end zone, AFTER they stopped him.

this has taken place with a rookie QB. actually i like sanchez a lot, and think he has a bright future, which is a big (but far from the only) reason i am high on edward's projection going forward... but he is still a rookie QB.

in terms of his pedigree, he has some similarities to Andre Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald and Calvin Johnson** (all top 3 overall picks in their respective drafts?)... he isn't as impressive a size/speed combo as dre or CJ, and obviously doesn't have fitz's hands... he does have very good size at about 6'3" 215 (?), is a great athlete that competed on the michigan track team in the 200 m, 60 m. & high jump. He has a 16 TD season on his resume, and that with derek anderson, who hasn't had the most luminous and illustrious career so far.

he does have a history of drops, but so did TO, and turned out alright.

i realize i am almost certainly in the minority, but absolutely think if the Jets extend him (a liklihood?), he has what it takes to be a WR1 (top 15, with top 10 or higher upside).

* lets try and keep track going forward if edwards continues to put up better stats with cotchery in the lineup, and becomes a clearly identifiable and recognizable trend.

** some elaboration on the andre/calvin johnson comparisons. imo he is not as good, or as fast. he doesn't have their hands. he does (along with fitzgerald) have top three pedigree, and i think all of these were the consensus best WRs in college prior to being drafted. while edwards may not be as big, strong or fast as dre & calvin, he is big, strong (again, watch his TD last week) & fast (michigan track team). and while that constellation of physical traits isn't the only reason dre & calvin have enjoyed such success (they have great hands, etc), it is a factor. if they were both 5'11" 4.6 WRs, they could not bring the same skills to the table (steve smith great recent example of how WRs without size can suceed at the highest level, however).

i do think that to the extent you are high on sanchez's future, it seems straightforward to be higher on edwards. they aren't necessarily connected and joined at the hip. For instance, maybe the Jets don't re-up him. But there, too, if you think edwards is with the jets long term, you might increasingly weigh sanchez's expected development more heavily.

 
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Let's talk Boldin more. Seems like a great time to buy him, if he is worth buying. Coming into the season, the sentiment was that he was elite because his PPG was superior to Fitz and he was very "tough" after recovering quickly from a brutal facial injury. Now the sentiment is that he's "brittle". Seems like the Arizona offense of 2008 is not going to repeat itself. We also don't know where Boldin will be when his contract expires. y sense is that he's talented and, at 28, still in his prime.I'd put him in the buy category if the price is right.
It would take a real piece of work to call Boldin "brittle." He's one of the toughest players in the game. That said, his physical style leads to injuries. He's dropped in my eyes because I don't think he's quite as explosive in the open field (tough to tell with the constant aches and pains) as he used to be, and because I can't trust him to play more than 12-14 games in any given year. Among WRs, he probably has the closest playing style to a running back, which conceivably could make his decline swifter.
 
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a topical article... no question boldin is a tough dude... a lot of WRs wouldn't even be able to play on a high ankle sprain (they are about as painful as a broken ankle, and can sometimes linger about as long). i think it was on a sunday night game recently (after the sprain, possibly the very next week... he hasn't missed a game?), where warner overthrew a pass down the right hashmark in which it was clear boldin couldn't run at all.

it is important to point out that injuries can lead to injuries... don't think this is his first ankle sprain, & he has had multiple injuries to other parts of his body (knee also, upper body, too... the shot to his face in the end zone last year could have probably happened to anybody)... ligaments and tendons are like rubber bands & become less supple after repeated overstretching... and you can't really strengthen them like lifting weights...

that said, i can't think of any WRs that pop immediately to mind as having their careers wrecked by sprained ankles (certainly foot injuries, like O.J. mcduffie, countless due to knee injuries)...

i don't think it is a stretch to suggest boldin could have a shortened career due to his violent, collision-friendly, RB-like style, as F & L put it. on the other hand, hines ward is a pretty physical WR, and is playing well into his 30s (is boldin 29, going on 30?). he is also known as one of the most physical, best blocking WRs ever (boldin also a good blocker), but think maybe he picks his shots more as a WR, and not sure he initiates as many collisions, or as big, compared to boldin.

* boldin is bigger (220?) than ward, and probably faster at their respective stages. it would seem to be a physics-type corollary that a bigger body, moving faster, when it collides with another object, will inflict greater stresses on the body? certain athletes, though, like marcus allen, were masters at avoiding kill shots (subtle body twist or roll near the goal line leading to a glancing blow)... i attributed this to great vision, instincts, field awareness and body control.

http://nfl.fanhouse.com/2009/11/05/should-...an-boldin-down/

Should Cards Shut Injured Anquan Boldin Down?

Posted Nov 05, 2009 10:55AM By Matt Snyder (RSS feed)

Filed Under: Arizona Cardinals, NFC West, NFL Injuries

Email Print ShareText SizeAAAAnquan Boldin, when healthy, is one of the best wide receivers in the NFL. This isn't a secret. He's been to three Pro Bowls, enjoyed four 1,000-yard seasons, caught more than 500 passes thus far in only 87 games and scored 41 touchdowns. He's a running back in a receiver's body, though, so he has endured his fair share of injuries -- missing 16 games in his first six seasons due to injury. This season, he's played every game, but he's done so at less than 100 percent.

Looking at his numbers, it's evident he's not himself. His per-game averages show Boldin's on pace for career lows across the board. And he just doesn't seem himself, either. Considering his ankle injury isn't going away without rest -- and the fact that the gamer Boldin won't voluntarily sit out -- should the Cardinals bench him until he's healthy? One Arizona columnist says they should.

Kent Somers of the Arizona Republic has made a plea to head coach Ken Whisenhunt to take the decision away from Boldin -- who insists he's about 80 percent but definitely OK to play -- and bench him.

By playing at considerably less than optimal health, Boldin is hurting the team. It's hard to make him a big part of the game plan, because no one is sure how long Boldin's ankle will hold up. It doesn't appear he can accelerate as fast on his pass routes, or move quickly enough to evade tacklers when he does make the catch.

It's the age-old question: do you keep running a star out there when he's clearly not himself, or risk losing a game or two while he works himself back to health. If he was simply in pain and his performance wasn't impacted, that would be one thing. You can't tell a player to stop putting himself through voluntary pain, because it's his job to play football.

It's quite another animal when his performance is actually lacking. As I mentioned earlier, Boldin is having the worst season of his career. Sure, it's because he's injured, but he's still injured. And, as Somers points out, Boldin's altering the team's game plan by not being able to complete games. With the only way to fully heal the ankle being rest, it seems like the right move, even if it angers Boldin.

For now, Whisenhunt seems as non-committal as possible:

"That is certainly something we are going to have to consider because you don't want to go through the rest of the season with Anquan only being able to play a half or three quarters before his ankle flares up," Whisenhunt said.

"I can't tell you how impressed I am with Anquan's toughness and ... his desire to compete," Whisenhunt said. "That's a big part of our football team. That's something you lose if you try to rest him."

The Cardinals head to Chicago this Sunday to square off with a Bears team who, like Arizona, is a fringe-type playoff team. Conventional wisdom says they need Boldin on the field, but it's entirely possible they'd be better served with Steve Breaston, Jerheme Urban and Early Doucet rounding out the receiving corps opposite star Larry Fitzgerald.

After all, the Cardinals did win four of five games without Boldin last year (including the playoffs).

 
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How far does Owen Daniels drop down the TE dynasty list? On one hand you've got tremendous production this year but on the other hand you've got his 3rd torn ACL, a tear this late in the season could jeopardize the beginning on next season, and his contract and team situation is up in the air.

 
more austin cross-posting (as his name is coming up a lot, understandably... seeing him make a ton of mid-season most improved, best fanasty pick up lists, needless to say)... austin has been impressive enough in a relatively extremely short time to already elevate the stature of romo...

... article excerpt and commentary...

The Eagles are expected to stick ball-hawking cornerback Asante Samuel on Austin. Samuel has a team-high five interceptions.

“He's a heck of an athlete,” Samuel said of Austin. “The biggest challenge is that he has a big lower body. And that's how he breaks through those arm tackles and goes the distance. So you just have to make sure you wrap him up when he catches the ball.”

This jibes with something said by Phil Simms on Inside the NFL (moved from HBO to Showtime last year) this week. He stated (paraphrasing) that Austin was unusual in that he was a WR with RB legs.

Its not like he has Earl Campbell legs with 36" thighs (maybe more like Robert Smith). The point being, though, that multiple NFL "insiders" (players and former players) seem to be converging on the observation that a strong lower body makes him hard to tackle.

* Samuel is an aggressive CB that will gamble (right a lot) and take some chances in jumping routes. That could make him vulnerable to double moves. That could make the over the top help from one of the safeties critically important. But double teaming Austin will open things up for Romo, Witten, the rest of the WRs and even the running game. I don't think Austin has reached the point so quickly where he commands Moss-like double teams on nearly every snap. And Samuel is an outstanding CB, making the need for help less pressing. It could be a case where they will be ready to make in-game coverage adjustments if needed.

__________________________________________________________________________

excerpt from another article...

"He enters Sunday night’s game against the Eagles averaging 10.5 yards after the catch, tops in the league among wide receivers who have at least 10 receptions. He’s also tied for the league lead among wideouts with six touchdowns."

the second stat is remarkable in that it has largely been compiled in just three starts.

___________________________________________________________________________

I earlier compared Austin to a few WRs (either here or in another Austin thread, or both)...

One was Brandon Marshall. Others correctly noted he doesn't attack defenders the same way, but Marshall is one of the best in the game at YAC (yards after catch), which translates directly to increased receiving yards and a potential increase in TDs. So even though it could be for different reasons than Marshall (led the league before, and one of best past few years), suggestive to me that he is leading the league in this important category... and he could post Marshall-like results if he continues to fulfill his potential. Like Marshall, he is adept at breaking tackles and has very good speed in the open field. I would say Marshall is significantly better at breaking tackles (but Austin still pretty strong, good contact balance, etc.), and Austin is significantly faster in the open field (but Marshall still pretty fast).

He also reminds me of Chad Johnson in some respects, especially in terms of how smooth and fluid an athlete he is. Austin is bigger, and probably faster. Doubt if Ochocinco could run a 10.6 100 meters in his prime. Chad is very fast. He dropped in his draft (3rd round?) because he ran a 4.6 40. Many who saw him in college, though, thought in terms of his functional, playing, field speed, he flashed burst, suddenness and acceleration more consistent with a 4.4 (if not 4.3) timed speed.

Another interesting juxtaposed thought (to me at least)...

Austin isn't a down the field speed guy. He is quick, too. But just because he can get up to speed quickly, doesn't imply that he can't have an extra gear (or two) most NFL players don't at any position, or that he doesn't get faster downfield and lacks exceptional deep, long speed.

Coupled with the fact that he breaks tackles, that should increase the chance that he has separation and frequently finds himself in a favorable position to employ the after-burners (moot point if you get tackled and are on the ground).

 
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Is Devin Thomas, WR WAS on anyone's radar?

If not this year, maybe as a stash for next year.

There's not much competition and there looks to be a coaching change on the horizon.

Stash him or not?

My other "stash" WR is Britt.

Meacham is the other WR on waivers I'm looking at.

 
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Let's talk Boldin more. Seems like a great time to buy him, if he is worth buying. Coming into the season, the sentiment was that he was elite because his PPG was superior to Fitz and he was very "tough" after recovering quickly from a brutal facial injury. Now the sentiment is that he's "brittle". Seems like the Arizona offense of 2008 is not going to repeat itself. We also don't know where Boldin will be when his contract expires. y sense is that he's talented and, at 28, still in his prime.I'd put him in the buy category if the price is right.
It would take a real piece of work to call Boldin "brittle." He's one of the toughest players in the game. That said, his physical style leads to injuries. He's dropped in my eyes because I don't think he's quite as explosive in the open field (tough to tell with the constant aches and pains) as he used to be, and because I can't trust him to play more than 12-14 games in any given year. Among WRs, he probably has the closest playing style to a running back, which conceivably could make his decline swifter.
Hines Ward plays a similar style and he has held up pretty well.
 
Is Devin Thomas, WR WAS on anyone's radar?

If not this year, maybe as a stash for next year.

There's not much competition and there looks to be a coaching change on the horizon.

Stash him or not?

My other "stash" WR is Britt.

Meacham is the other WR on waivers I'm looking at.
I still believe in the guy, here is a post I made in the ACF during the offseason.
RockHard said:
I am enamored with Thomas for several reasons;

1. He has been an all star caliber player at the high school, junior college, and college level.

2. He has elite measurables along with college production

3. His sophmore season at MSU he only had 6 catches before exploding for 79 catches and 1260 yards his junior season.

Which is extremely telling for a conservative run first coach like Dantonio.

4. Washington's WCO is ideally suited for a player of Thomas's skill set, a big physical reciever with good run after the catch

ability.

I own Thomas in all of my dynasty leagues, and I would advise you to do the same.
Here are some quotes from a recent article
"Devin's work habits have really improved," receivers coach Stan Hixon said. "He's playing faster, running his routes better and catching the ball better, too. We had been seeing improvement as he had been going along. It wasn't something that happened the week we made him the starter."

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"His practice speed and his practice attention has dramatically increased, [but] he's not out of the woods yet," Zorn said. "He's still a pup in my mind. He's still climbing, but his attitude is right on. He's working like a pro needs to work, and he's earned his right to be on [the] field and us giving him the ball."
LinkHere is another article about Thomas

Similarly, quarterback Jason Campbell said Devin Thomas is "definitely improving."

"I think that touchdown catch gave him a lot of motivation," Campbell said. "After that, he was hungry for more. ...He's a guy who wants the ball more. So we're going to try to get those guys involved in the offense more and more and see if they can make that next step."
Link
 
Washington breaks his leg - badly - and the Jets consider bringing back Jones. Why does that reaction by the Jets damn Greene in your eyes? Isnt it more likely that it reflects uncertainty about Washington's ability to recover and be productive in 2010?Jones being on the Jets next season hurts Greene's value as they both fill a similar role, but I dont think anyone expected that the Jets would make Greene their full time RB. He's going to be paired with someone, and if the Jets have doubts about Washington in 2010, why wouldnt they bring back Jones?
If Chester Taylor broke his leg, would the Vikings pay an RB $5 million a year? If Rashad Jennings broke his leg, would the Jags sign pay Greg Jones $5 million a year? More reasonably... if MeMo broke his leg, would the Steelers resign FWP for $5 million a year. If Buckhalter broke his leg, would the Broncos sign Lamont Jordan for $5 million a year? If you are confident in the back on your roster, you don't pay $5 million for the other guy. Especially when the other guy fills the same role as the guy you're supposedly confident in.
braylon edwards came up recently...while i have immense respect for SSOG's dynasty acumen and insight, i respectfully disagree on edwards...another way to parse the data is to throw out the games with the browns (looking like one of the most dysfunctional offenses in the league)... also, his second and third game with the Jets he seemed to miss Cotchery (causing Sanchez to at times force it into edwards, leading to INTs).in his two games WITH cotchery, i think he has a combined 9-138-2... projected over 16 games = 72-1,104-16not trying to cherry pick the data*, but i don't think there would be much disagreement edwards is in a better situation with NYJ than CLE, or that it is too controversial to suggest the presence of cotchery could be beneficial for him.
Now we're talking about a 2-game sample. I think if you finagle any 2-game sample you can make anyone look like a stud. I've seen plenty of evidence to suggest that a WR's performance is directly related to the quality of his QB, but there's no real evidence to suggest that a WR's performance is directly related to the quality of the WR2. In fact, the only somewhat-related look I've done on the subject suggested that WR2s in year N who lost their WR1 runningmate and became the go-to guy in year N+1 saw an increase in targets with no net drop in catch% (in fact, most even saw an increase in catch%).
How far does Owen Daniels drop down the TE dynasty list? On one hand you've got tremendous production this year but on the other hand you've got his 3rd torn ACL, a tear this late in the season could jeopardize the beginning on next season, and his contract and team situation is up in the air.
I've got him somewhere in the TE7-11 range. Like with Vernon Davis a couple of years ago, uncertainty is acceptable from a dynasty TE as long as it's accompanied by upside, and Daniels did a great job of demonstrating his upside this year.
 
Now we're talking about a 2-game sample. I think if you finagle any 2-game sample you can make anyone look like a stud. I've seen plenty of evidence to suggest that a WR's performance is directly related to the quality of his QB, but there's no real evidence to suggest that a WR's performance is directly related to the quality of the WR2. In fact, the only somewhat-related look I've done on the subject suggested that WR2s in year N who lost their WR1 runningmate and became the go-to guy in year N+1 saw an increase in targets with no net drop in catch% (in fact, most even saw an increase in catch%).
intuitively, i'd expect it to be tougher for opposing defenses to blanket edwards if cotchery is in the mix. yeah, as you noted, the study you cited is somewhat-related, but may not bear much on a WR1 losing a WR2. lot of variables when a WR2 becomes a WR1... how good is the incoming WR2? also, possibly rookie QBs are more severely impacted by a dimunition of weapons than a vet might be, which would be hard to account for in a study not specifically looking for that effect...i definitely agree two games isn't a very robust sample size... :mellow: though it isn't like he has an extensive body of work with the jets from which we could draw on?as i noted elsewhere in that post, it will be interesting to track edwards future numbers WITH cotchery in the lineup to see if they are more like his two previous games with cotchery, rather than his two games without. it lends itself to empirical verification. :lmao: * edwards pedigree & triangle numbers are indisputable (other high pedigree WRs have failed... but some top 10 like david terrell and koren robinson weren't top 3... roy williams was around there, and would qualify as a disappointment, but he never had a season as good as edwards best... going way back, irving fryar very high pedigree with mixed results in NE, before enjoying a renaissance later in his career with PHI)... i just don't think because he failed in CLE means he is destined to in NY (nor have you said this - just stating my take)... there isn't anything to suggest he isn't happy with the jets, and is looking to play his way out of town... if anything, it seems quite the opposite. there are the drops, but so were there for TO. would you agree sanchez looks more promising in the early going than quinn & anderson have in 2009 (that of course wouldn't be saying a lot, or going out on much of a limb).
 
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intuitively, i'd expect it to be tougher for opposing defenses to blanket edwards if cotchery is in the mix.
It's also harder for the QB to throw to the WR1 when he's got a quality WR2 on the other side demanding touches. There are two diametrically opposed forces at play, and I have yet to see anything to suggest that one force is stronger than the other. Generally, it seems to me that any benefits gained from easier coverage are offset by losses in priority when the QB is making his reads.Take a look at Marvin Harrison, for instance. It's abundantly clear that Harrison's best seasons were the years when there was no credible #2 WR in Indy. Which isn't to say that having a quality #2 is necessarily a negative, it's just to illustrate a situation where it had the opposite effect to what you're expecting. There are plenty of other examples out there, if you'd like to hear some (Lee Evans when Eric Moulds left Buffalo, Santana Moss in New York after Coles left, Steve Smith when Muhsin Muhammad left, etc). As I said, I've never seen anything that conclusively demonstrated whether having a quality second target was a help or a hindrance, so I generally ignore the quality of the WR2 when evaluating players. If I had to speculate, I'd say that the guys who most benefit from a quality running mate are the guys who are barely WR1 talents to begin with, which means even if Edwards is better with Cotchery, that's not necessarily a ringing endorsement of his long-term dynasty value.
 
Dynasty PPR, I go Cotchery, Keller, Edwards.

Edwards will of course always go first. And much like every year with Lee Evans, Santonio Holmes, you won't get bang for your buck there.

 
Just dealt Calvin Johnson in dynasty non-ppr:

Amish Hit Men gave up Brown, Donald IND RB;Holmes, Santonio PIT WR;Wallace, Mike PIT WR

One Man WolfPack gave up Johnson, Calvin DET WR;Nelson, Jordy GBP WR;Cook, Jared TEN TE

He was my first pick overall, 8th in the draft, but I really needed the help at RB. I have been forced to start Darren Sproles, Tashard Choice and Glen Coffee when they weren't even starting - Choice started for me when he was #3 on the depth chart.

 
Truman, I think you got VERY shortchanged in that trade. Santonio has flashed talent but has yet to put it together for an entire year and he is a guy I like. Donald Brown is a RBBC rookie RB that hasn't shown as much as Addai yet. Wallace has some potential.

Having said that, Calvin Johnson is a very young WR(ie you keep him for a decade) that OOZES talent. He is a guy that you can't trade unless someone way overpays for him. I wish I could pry him away from an owner in one of my leagues but he has WAY too much talent for me to get other than over paying for him.

 
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SSOG said:
Bob Magaw said:
intuitively, i'd expect it to be tougher for opposing defenses to blanket edwards if cotchery is in the mix.
It's also harder for the QB to throw to the WR1 when he's got a quality WR2 on the other side demanding touches. There are two diametrically opposed forces at play, and I have yet to see anything to suggest that one force is stronger than the other. Generally, it seems to me that any benefits gained from easier coverage are offset by losses in priority when the QB is making his reads.Take a look at Marvin Harrison, for instance. It's abundantly clear that Harrison's best seasons were the years when there was no credible #2 WR in Indy. Which isn't to say that having a quality #2 is necessarily a negative, it's just to illustrate a situation where it had the opposite effect to what you're expecting. There are plenty of other examples out there, if you'd like to hear some (Lee Evans when Eric Moulds left Buffalo, Santana Moss in New York after Coles left, Steve Smith when Muhsin Muhammad left, etc). As I said, I've never seen anything that conclusively demonstrated whether having a quality second target was a help or a hindrance, so I generally ignore the quality of the WR2 when evaluating players. If I had to speculate, I'd say that the guys who most benefit from a quality running mate are the guys who are barely WR1 talents to begin with, which means even if Edwards is better with Cotchery, that's not necessarily a ringing endorsement of his long-term dynasty value.
another possibility you seem not to have considered is that cotchery will be good enough to draw coverage away from edwards, while not being as good as edwards, and in position to demand having as many passes thrown his way. in football, things are rarely rigidly black & white (as if the only possibilities could be that cotchery helps edwards a lot, or doesn't help at all... there are a spectrum or continuum of possibilities in between)... the possibilities aren't binary, but multi-valent.i realize you are down on edwards, but if you were to look at it in a detached way, what is your sense of what the jets think about him? do you think the jets are more likely to prioritize getting the ball to edwards or cotchery... or an even distribution? do you expect the jets to re-up edwards, or did they just rent him for a year for a few picks? if edwards & cotchery were to both come up for renewal, who would they prioritize, and who would be extended the larger contract?* i also think an important component of edwards projection is where you stand on sanchez vs. the CLE QBs. if you think CLE QBs are just as good, it would make sense to be correspondingly down on edwards. if you think sanchez has more upside, it would follow that edwards could be more productive. another potential cause for harrison's production going down in recent years, is not just wayne's ascension, but also that harrison was getting older. certainly there have been many instances where two good WRs co-exist - swann & stallworth, rice & taylor, holt & bruce, chad johnson & TJ housmandzadeh, fitz & boldin, etc. in their cases, making it hard for the defense to double team any one WR seems to have helped, not hurt. holt, chad & fitz weren't dragged down because bruce, housh & boldin were clamoring for the ball... were they?** another reason i like his OPPORTUNITY... the jets have had a screaming need for a WR1 for a long time. edwards would seem to fit that bill.
 
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one time said:
Truman, I think you got VERY shortchanged in that trade. Santonio has flashed talent but has yet to put it together for an entire year and he is a guy I like. Donald Brown is a RBBC rookie RB that hasn't shown as much as Addai yet. Wallace has some potential.Having said that, Calvin Johnson is a very young WR(ie you keep him for a decade) that OOZES talent. He is a guy that you can't trade unless someone way overpays for him. I wish I could pry him away from an owner in one of my leagues but he has WAY too much talent for me to get other than over paying for him.
:popcorn: Never trade Calvin Johnson.
 
one time said:
Truman, I think you got VERY shortchanged in that trade. Santonio has flashed talent but has yet to put it together for an entire year and he is a guy I like. Donald Brown is a RBBC rookie RB that hasn't shown as much as Addai yet. Wallace has some potential.Having said that, Calvin Johnson is a very young WR(ie you keep him for a decade) that OOZES talent. He is a guy that you can't trade unless someone way overpays for him. I wish I could pry him away from an owner in one of my leagues but he has WAY too much talent for me to get other than over paying for him.
:wall: Never trade Calvin Johnson.
If you replaced Brown with ADP or MJD I probably would have taken it. I agree, Truman got taken to the woodshed.
 
another possibility you seem not to have considered is that cotchery will be good enough to draw coverage away from edwards, while not being as good as edwards, and in position to demand having as many passes thrown his way. in football, things are rarely rigidly black & white (as if the only possibilities could be that cotchery helps edwards a lot, or doesn't help at all... there are a spectrum or continuum of possibilities in between)... the possibilities aren't binary, but multi-valent.i realize you are down on edwards, but if you were to look at it in a detached way, what is your sense of what the jets think about him? do you think the jets are more likely to prioritize getting the ball to edwards or cotchery... or an even distribution? do you expect the jets to re-up edwards, or did they just rent him for a year for a few picks? if edwards & cotchery were to both come up for renewal, who would they prioritize, and who would be extended the larger contract?* i also think an important component of edwards projection is where you stand on sanchez vs. the CLE QBs. if you think CLE QBs are just as good, it would make sense to be correspondingly down on edwards. if you think sanchez has more upside, it would follow that edwards could be more productive. another potential cause for harrison's production going down in recent years, is not just wayne's ascension, but also that harrison was getting older. certainly there have been many instances where two good WRs co-exist - swann & stallworth, rice & taylor, holt & bruce, chad johnson & TJ housmandzadeh, fitz & boldin, etc. in their cases, making it hard for the defense to double team any one WR seems to have helped, not hurt. holt, chad & fitz weren't dragged down because bruce, housh & boldin were clamoring for the ball... were they?** another reason i like his OPPORTUNITY... the jets have had a screaming need for a WR1 for a long time. edwards would seem to fit that bill.
It's not a possibility I didn't consider. It's a possibility that I clearly spelled out. As I said, there are two very distinct forces at work. the better the WR2 is, the more coverage he demands. The better the WR2, the more targets he demands. It's not as if Cotchery will necessarily get more targets than Edwards, but the more coverage he commands, the more targets he will command, too. Cotchery doesn't have to get 160 targets to hurt Edwards' value- if he simply gets 120, Edwards' value will suffer. The two forces are diametrically opposed, and I have yet to see any evidence that one force outweighs the other.I think that the Jets like Edwards more than Cotchery, and I think they should because he's more talented than Cotchery. That's not a reason to rank Edwards highly in and of itself, though. Santana Moss is better than Antwaan Randle-El and the Redskins would definitely prioritize Moss first, but nobody has a problem with ranking Santana outside of the top 20. I'm not ranking Edwards based on whether he's a WR1 or not, I'm ranking him based on what I think of his talent (not his POTENTIAL or his UPSIDE, but his talent), and I'm refusing to move that ranking upwards or downwards based on tertiary considerations such as how good his WR2 is.Also, I don't think you can blame Harrison's "decline" on aging, partly because he was still averaging 1200/12 a year, and partly because he was only 31 when he "declined". From 1999-2002, Harrison never had fewer than 102 catches or 1413 yards. From 2003 onward, Harrison never had MORE than 95 catches or 1366 yards. The only real difference was Reggie Wayne. In 2002, Harrison had a mind-boggling 200+ targets. After that, Manning had no reason to force-feed Harrison like that ever again, because he had other options.
 
Steve Smith (NY) is making a believer out of me. Im hating myself for not trying to land him on any of my teams as i thought he was a weak possesion wr.You guys also have him rated so low its starting to look crazy now. I mean do you still think he is 30-40 range for dynasty???
He might be working his way up a bit, but I'm still a strong skeptic. It's not that I don't believe in Steve Smith North, it's that I don't believe in Eli Manning. Steve Smith has been putting up awesome numbers... but Eli Manning is on pace for 4156 yards and 32 TDs (against only 8 INTs). Let's just say I'm not bullish on his chances to keep up that level of production over a full season. I wouldn't be surprised to see Eli average under 200 yards a game from here on out (not only would I not be surprised, I'd bet on it). Also, my concerns about Manningham, Nicks, and Hixon still remain. I can't in good conscience bump Steve Smith North into the top 25 without being sold on his talent, and I haven't seen enough of him this year to change my mind on him already. Especially after 4 games. 4 games is a huge sample in redraft (it's about 30% of the regular season), but it's still a very small sample in dynasty.
#4- Steve Smith North is not a top 20 dynasty WR. He's barely a top 30 dynasty WR. The Giants passing game right now is a mirage. Eli Manning is who we thought he was, and it'll show going forward. Meanwhile, Smith doesn't have the talent to hold off Nicks *AND* Manningham. Over the next few years, I see the Giants pie being smaller than it has been so far, and Smith getting a smaller piece than he's gotten so far. He's currently the #5 WR in standard FBGs scoring, and he's 24 years old, which means someone in your league is absolutely salivating at the prospect of adding him. Sell high.
CBS just flashed a graphic that reminded me it was time to bump this and pat myself on the back.Since this post, Eli Manning has gone ice cold (current pace: 3710 yards, 26 TDs, 16 INTs, and his pace over the 4 games since I posted would put him at 3264/20/24). In addition, Nicks has really stepped up and eaten into Smith's numbers. Smith's pace over the last 4 games would project to 76/1004/0 over a 16 game season.Moral of the story: 6th year starters don't suddenly change their stripes. Eli Manning is who we thought he was. Hopefully, you didn't let him off the hook.
 
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I've got the Chargers again this week. Vincent Jackson just keeps on keeping on. After watching Wayne in the early game, I'm a lot more comfortable with my decision to bump Jackson over him. Wayne is very good. VJax is great.

 
SSOG said:
I've got the Chargers again this week. Vincent Jackson just keeps on keeping on. After watching Wayne in the early game, I'm a lot more comfortable with my decision to bump Jackson over him. Wayne is very good. VJax is great.
He is turning into a TD machine.
 
SSOG said:
I've got the Chargers again this week. Vincent Jackson just keeps on keeping on. After watching Wayne in the early game, I'm a lot more comfortable with my decision to bump Jackson over him. Wayne is very good. VJax is great.
He is turning into a TD machine.
Definitely. Two targets in the red zone = two receptions, two TDs. Two balls thrown 20+ yards downfield = 1 incompletion, 1 DPI call in the end zone. Good things happen when you throw the ball in his direction.
 
Hey guys. Interested in opinions on B Wells, relative to next year rookie draft picks. Our rookie draft is only 3 rounds long and I've already traded my 1st and 3rd round picks. However, I picked up a 1st from another team, which would be 1.02 based on the standings today. It will definitely be in the top 5, most likely the top 3.Is Wells worth a top 3 rookie pick? My current team is listed in my signature if it's helpful. thanks!
Me too, Beannie or Shon Greene?When in THT contract up? 1 or 2 more years. If they resign THT and THT is the 3rd down and goalline back (although I think Beanie is a better GL back) Beanie's long-term value is about crap.
 
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If this is so then why do you rank Britt over Hicks?Collins is a bad QB impersonator and I doubt Young will ever mature into a NFL caliber QB/Leader.Does Britt's skill set exceed Nick's that much?Nicks has a Manning throwing him the ball but does have more competition.I have Britt and am wondering whether or not to hold him or trade him in a deal to land Nicks. I like what I see with Britt but his situation is nutz.Help me get my head around this and thanks for all your help.Currently in 3rd place in a 12-team dynasty league and looking better every day.
This is dynasty. Who cares if Vince Young is a worse passer than Kerry Collins *THIS YEAR*. If Vince Young sucks, he'll be gone, and Kenny Britt will get a real NFL QB under center. If Vince Young surprises and doesn't suck, then Britt will already have a real NFL QB under center. Don't alter dynasty rankings based solely on the immediate future, especially for a rookie WR like Britt. Rank them based on talent, and if they're as talented as you think, the situation will fall into place eventually.
Britt has 4 catches for 25 yds over the last 4 games played.I'm not even sure he exists with Vince Young under center.Do you hold onto him in dynasty league or pick up J Jones or R Meachem (both on waivers)?
 
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SSOG said:
Steve Smith (NY) is making a believer out of me.

Im hating myself for not trying to land him on any of my teams as i thought he was a weak possesion wr.

You guys also have him rated so low its starting to look crazy now.

I mean do you still think he is 30-40 range for dynasty???
He might be working his way up a bit, but I'm still a strong skeptic. It's not that I don't believe in Steve Smith North, it's that I don't believe in Eli Manning. Steve Smith has been putting up awesome numbers... but Eli Manning is on pace for 4156 yards and 32 TDs (against only 8 INTs). Let's just say I'm not bullish on his chances to keep up that level of production over a full season. I wouldn't be surprised to see Eli average under 200 yards a game from here on out (not only would I not be surprised, I'd bet on it). Also, my concerns about Manningham, Nicks, and Hixon still remain. I can't in good conscience bump Steve Smith North into the top 25 without being sold on his talent, and I haven't seen enough of him this year to change my mind on him already. Especially after 4 games. 4 games is a huge sample in redraft (it's about 30% of the regular season), but it's still a very small sample in dynasty.
#4- Steve Smith North is not a top 20 dynasty WR. He's barely a top 30 dynasty WR. The Giants passing game right now is a mirage. Eli Manning is who we thought he was, and it'll show going forward. Meanwhile, Smith doesn't have the talent to hold off Nicks *AND* Manningham. Over the next few years, I see the Giants pie being smaller than it has been so far, and Smith getting a smaller piece than he's gotten so far. He's currently the #5 WR in standard FBGs scoring, and he's 24 years old, which means someone in your league is absolutely salivating at the prospect of adding him. Sell high.
CBS just flashed a graphic that reminded me it was time to bump this and pat myself on the back.Since this post, Eli Manning has gone ice cold (current pace: 3710 yards, 26 TDs, 16 INTs, and his pace over the 4 games since I posted would put him at 3264/20/24). In addition, Nicks has really stepped up and eaten into Smith's numbers. Smith's pace over the last 4 games would project to 76/1004/0 over a 16 game season.

Moral of the story: 6th year starters don't suddenly change their stripes. Eli Manning is who we thought he was. Hopefully, you didn't let him off the hook.
:towelwave: Strange you post this after Eli had his best game in weeks, perhaps all year.

112.6 rating

215 yards, 2 TDs, 0 INT

76 % completion

Beyond the stats he managed pressure very well moving around the pocket and sidestepping would be tacklers.

 
Britt has 4 catches for 25 yds over the last 4 games played.I'm not even sure he exists with Vince Young under center.Do you hold onto him in dynasty league or pick up J Jones or R Meacham (both on waivers)?
4 games doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. Vince Young is just getting his feet wet again. Kenny Britt is a rookie. In the long run, if Britt is talented, he'll get his. If he's not, he won't. All of the external stuff that we spend so much time wringing our hands over has a habit of amounting to a hill of beans when all is said and done.As to your question... J Jones? Do you mean James Jones - WR - Green Bay, or Jacoby Jones - WR - Houston?I'd rank them thusly:James JonesKenny BrittJacoby JonesRobert Meacham
:thumbup:Strange you post this after Eli had his best game in weeks, perhaps all year.112.6 rating215 yards, 2 TDs, 0 INT76 % completionBeyond the stats he managed pressure very well moving around the pocket and sidestepping would be tacklers.
Actually, check the timestamp. I posted it BEFORE Eli had his best game in weeks, perhaps all year. And the fact that it was his best game in weeks, perhaps all year, only serves to reinforce my point. My point was that he's never going to be a 4000 yard, 30 TD passer. That's not who he is. He's the kind of guy who is going to put up under 3500 yards and 20-24 TDs season after season after season, so ranking Giants skill position players based on their stats when Eli is on pace for 4,000 yards is overly optimistic, because the stats will come back to earth. And voila, here you go. In this, his best game in weeks, perhaps all year, he put up 215 yards passing. That's on pace for 3440 yards over 16 games. Even in his best games, he is who we thought he was, and who we thought he was is a guy who's never going to put up gaudy enough statistics to support two top-20 fantasy WRs.
 
Just Win Baby said:
Definitely. Two targets in the red zone = two receptions, two TDs. Two balls thrown 20+ yards downfield = 1 incompletion, 1 DPI call in the end zone. Good things happen when you throw the ball in his direction.
And he also was targeted in the end zone with a 30+ yard throw, and drew a PI penalty that led to the Wilson TD.
I know. I said that in the post you quoted. DPI = Defensive Pass Interference. :thumbup:
 
Just Win Baby said:
Definitely. Two targets in the red zone = two receptions, two TDs. Two balls thrown 20+ yards downfield = 1 incompletion, 1 DPI call in the end zone. Good things happen when you throw the ball in his direction.
And he also was targeted in the end zone with a 30+ yard throw, and drew a PI penalty that led to the Wilson TD.
I know. I said that in the post you quoted. DPI = Defensive Pass Interference. :shrug:
Uh, yeah, well, I just wanted to reinforce that point... :thumbup:
 
Uh, yeah, well, I just wanted to reinforce that point... :thumbdown:
Actually, since I've got you here, I'd love to hear a Charger fan's take on VJax. Does he have any character or injury concerns that a casual fan might not know about? Is he generally thought of as a high work ethic guy or a low work ethic guy?
 
Robert MeachEm. Why is his the most misspelled name in fantasy football?

He's consistently found the endzone over his career and he's starting to make timely catches for his team. I hope all who drafted him are still stashing and those who grabbed him from the wire are doing the same. Great lottery ticket.

 
Robert MeachEm. Why is his the most misspelled name in fantasy football?
I actually had it E-M until I saw that WFR had spelled it A-M. At that point, I changed it, figuring either I would be right, or else I could blame it all on WFR. :thumbdown:
 
Robert MeachEm. Why is his the most misspelled name in fantasy football? He's consistently found the endzone over his career and he's starting to make timely catches for his team. I hope all who drafted him are still stashing and those who grabbed him from the wire are doing the same. Great lottery ticket.
probably because he is rarely heard from other than possibly a bye week fill-in or a really deep league.
 
Robert MeachEm. Why is his the most misspelled name in fantasy football?
I actually had it E-M until I saw that WFR had spelled it A-M. At that point, I changed it, figuring either I would be right, or else I could blame it all on WFR. :goodposting:
Who me?I spelt it right! After I wuz corrected.I also put in a waiver claim for him dropping Floyd. As a VJax owner I wanted to add a WR from a different team.
 
Uh, yeah, well, I just wanted to reinforce that point... ;)
Actually, since I've got you here, I'd love to hear a Charger fan's take on VJax. Does he have any character or injury concerns that a casual fan might not know about? Is he generally thought of as a high work ethic guy or a low work ethic guy?
Doesn't he have an outstanding DUI?
I believe so. Aside from that, I'm not aware of any issues. As far as I know, he's a hard worker. And I'm not aware that he has ever had injury issues. I'm in Virginia, so I may not be fully tuned in to local news, but I would think of him as a durable, high work ethic guy with good character. (I don't view one DUI with no other off field issues as equating to bad character... though I am not saying I condone his DUI.)
 
McCoy is reminding me a lot of Bush and Slaton. Way too much shake and bake.
:lmao: That was my knock on him before the season even started. Way too much east and west and not nearly enough north and south. He's not exactly a move the chains type of runner.
 
McCoy is reminding me a lot of Bush and Slaton. Way too much shake and bake.
:( That was my knock on him before the season even started. Way too much east and west and not nearly enough north and south. He's not exactly a move the chains type of runner.
What type of WR should I be looking at acquiring for him [PPR format]? Going to try to peddle 2morrow. I really dislike his in tackle ability [and tackle breaking ability].
 
That was my knock on him before the season even started. Way too much east and west and not nearly enough north and south. He's not exactly a move the chains type of runner.
Well, Chris Johnson is hardly a move the chains type runner, either. I suppose when you average 6+ yards per carry, people are a bit more forgiving on that point. :popcorn:
 
another possibility you seem not to have considered is that cotchery will be good enough to draw coverage away from edwards, while not being as good as edwards, and in position to demand having as many passes thrown his way. in football, things are rarely rigidly black & white (as if the only possibilities could be that cotchery helps edwards a lot, or doesn't help at all... there are a spectrum or continuum of possibilities in between)... the possibilities aren't binary, but multi-valent.i realize you are down on edwards, but if you were to look at it in a detached way, what is your sense of what the jets think about him? do you think the jets are more likely to prioritize getting the ball to edwards or cotchery... or an even distribution? do you expect the jets to re-up edwards, or did they just rent him for a year for a few picks? if edwards & cotchery were to both come up for renewal, who would they prioritize, and who would be extended the larger contract?* i also think an important component of edwards projection is where you stand on sanchez vs. the CLE QBs. if you think CLE QBs are just as good, it would make sense to be correspondingly down on edwards. if you think sanchez has more upside, it would follow that edwards could be more productive. another potential cause for harrison's production going down in recent years, is not just wayne's ascension, but also that harrison was getting older. certainly there have been many instances where two good WRs co-exist - swann & stallworth, rice & taylor, holt & bruce, chad johnson & TJ housmandzadeh, fitz & boldin, etc. in their cases, making it hard for the defense to double team any one WR seems to have helped, not hurt. holt, chad & fitz weren't dragged down because bruce, housh & boldin were clamoring for the ball... were they?** another reason i like his OPPORTUNITY... the jets have had a screaming need for a WR1 for a long time. edwards would seem to fit that bill.
It's not a possibility I didn't consider. It's a possibility that I clearly spelled out. As I said, there are two very distinct forces at work. the better the WR2 is, the more coverage he demands. The better the WR2, the more targets he demands. It's not as if Cotchery will necessarily get more targets than Edwards, but the more coverage he commands, the more targets he will command, too. Cotchery doesn't have to get 160 targets to hurt Edwards' value- if he simply gets 120, Edwards' value will suffer. The two forces are diametrically opposed, and I have yet to see any evidence that one force outweighs the other.I think that the Jets like Edwards more than Cotchery, and I think they should because he's more talented than Cotchery. That's not a reason to rank Edwards highly in and of itself, though. Santana Moss is better than Antwaan Randle-El and the Redskins would definitely prioritize Moss first, but nobody has a problem with ranking Santana outside of the top 20. I'm not ranking Edwards based on whether he's a WR1 or not, I'm ranking him based on what I think of his talent (not his POTENTIAL or his UPSIDE, but his talent), and I'm refusing to move that ranking upwards or downwards based on tertiary considerations such as how good his WR2 is.Also, I don't think you can blame Harrison's "decline" on aging, partly because he was still averaging 1200/12 a year, and partly because he was only 31 when he "declined". From 1999-2002, Harrison never had fewer than 102 catches or 1413 yards. From 2003 onward, Harrison never had MORE than 95 catches or 1366 yards. The only real difference was Reggie Wayne. In 2002, Harrison had a mind-boggling 200+ targets. After that, Manning had no reason to force-feed Harrison like that ever again, because he had other options.
to grossly simplify, would it be better or worse for edwards if he is double teamed less often?i still don't see why having a good WR in the lineup necessarily has to be bad for edwards, when there are so many instances of two WRs fluorishing in an offense.i also don't agree that harrison's declining stats later in his career had nothing to do with his aging, and everything to do with wayne's presence. i would agree that wayne was no doubt a factor, but so was harrison's aging. again, i don't think it has to be rigidly black & white. things rarely are (except in debates :) )...still curious as to your take on sanchez's relative upside compared to the CLE situation.
 
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to grossly simplify, would it be better or worse for edwards if he is double teamed less often?
To grossly simplify in return... no it wouldn't be. It wouldn't be better or worse for Edwards if he is double teamed less often.As I said, the problem is that it doesn't work in a vacuum. It's not like there's some magical wand you can wave, some magical WR2 you can sign who will command coverage but not targets. The more coverage a WR commands, the more targets he demands. The more targets a WR demands, the more coverage he commands. Yes, facing fewer double teams is a good thing. Yes, getting fewer targets is a bad thing. Is facing fewer double teams more of a good thing than getting fewer targets is a bad thing? I don't know. I'd love to see some study on the subject. I've seen cases that have gone one way. For instance, for Marvin Harrison, facing fewer double teams was a bad thing. I've seen other cases that have gone another way. For instance, for Peerless Price, getting fewer targets was a good thing. I have seen nothing to suggest that facing fewer double teams or getting fewer targets was, on the whole, more good or more bad... so in the meantime, I treat it as "no net change". If I have a WR projected to score 200 fantasy points, and then his team signs the best WR2 in the NFL, then I'm going to keep that first WR projected at 200 fantasy points. If I have a WR projected to score 200 fantasy points, and his WR2 gets run over by a tractor, then I'm going to keep that WR projected to score 200 fantasy points. I haven't seen anything that establishes any correlation between the quality of the WR2 and the production of the WR1, whether positive or negative. As a result, I will simply assume that there is no correlation whatsoever until someone demonstrates otherwise.
 
it might be a case of having a smaller piece of a bigger pie...

if edwards gets a few less targets over the course of a year, but enjoys single coverage more often, that would seem to be a net positive.

boldin demands more targets than a lesser WR would. but fitzgerald enjoys lighter coverage as a consequence. it has worked out pretty well. not understanding why it isn't possible cotchery could be good for edwards, for similar reasons to the fitz/boldin dynamic?

can you think of instances when having two good WRs was a benefit to both, by putting more pressure on coverages, or in your opinion does it always have to be a net negative for the top WR.

 
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i still don't see why having a good WR in the lineup necessarily has to be bad for edwards, when there are so many instances of two WRs fluorishing in an offense.i also don't agree that harrison's declining stats later in his career had nothing to do with his aging, and everything to do with wayne's presence. i would agree that wayne was no doubt a factor, but so was harrison's aging. again, i don't think it has to be rigidly black & white. things rarely are (except in debates :) )...still curious as to your take on sanchez's relative upside compared to the CLE situation.
To further expound... I'm not saying that having a good WR in the lineup necessarily has to be bad for Edwards. I'm just saying it doesn't necessarily have to be good for Edwards, either. It could wind up being good. It could wind up being bad. It could wind up being neutral. I don't know of any reason to assume that one has any more validity than the other, so I'm not going to move him up or down in my rankings as a result of his WR2.As for Harrison, "age related decline" doesn't fit the stats. From age 27-30, Harrison's stats were consistently at a super-elite level. They then changed pretty much overnight, and from 31-34 they were consistently at a standard-elite level. If the decline were age related, you'd expect just that- a decline. Either a gradual decline, or a complete fall-off-a-cliff decline. This was neither. It was a plateau, followed by a drop, followed by another very long plateau again. In fact, Marvin Harrison's numbers were better at age 34 than they were at age 33, age 32, *OR* age 31- which is pretty much the opposite of what you'd expect for a true age related decline.As for Sanchez... Braylon is absolutely more valuable in New York than he was in Cleveland. That's not the point. The disagreement started because I had Braylon ranked lower than Sims-Walker, not because I had NYJ Braylon ranked lower than CLE Braylon. If Braylon was still in Cleveland, I'd have him ranked even lower than Sims-Walker, still. And I wouldn't be moving him up or down in my rankings, no matter how good Mohommad Massaquoi looked. :)Also, I'd like to preemptively apologize in case it sounds like I'm getting snippy or short or cross or anything else, because I'm not any of those things. As far as I'm concerned, we're two adults having a very civil, very entertaining, and very enlightening disagreement about a player. Normally I wouldn't bother with the disclaimer, but I know firsthand that a lot gets lost over the internet, and I definitely wouldn't want you to get the wrong impression.
 
it might be a case of having a smaller piece of a bigger pie...if edwards gets a few less targets over the course of a year, but enjoys single coverage more often, that would seem to be a net positive.boldin demands more targets than a lesser WR would. but fitzgerald enjoys lighter coverage as a consequence. it has worked out pretty well. not understanding why it isn't possible cotchery could be good for edwards, for similar reasons to the fitz/boldin dynamic?
I never said it wasn't possible Cotchery could be good for Edwards. It certainly is possible. It's also possible that Cotchery could be bad for Edwards. Is one more possible than the other? I've never seen anything that said so. You intuitively feel like it would be a net positive, but from what I've seen on the subject, I'm not nearly as convinced as you are that it's likely to be a net positive instead of a net negative. I think there's an equal chance of it going either way.Also, you mention the Fitz/Boldin dynamic, but for all we know, if Boldin skipped town Fitz might be putting up 1600 a year instead of 1400 a year. I seem to recall someone running the splits and finding that Fitz had much better numbers in the games Boldin missed than he did in the games Boldin played... but it's also possible that I'm misremembering.
 
no worries, SSOG...

as i said, i have a lot of respect, and have really enjoyed discovering this thread, which you have played an integral role in shaping the debate of...

i think we weren't disagreeing as much as i thought based on your last post...

i can be a little dense at times, but i try to not take disagreements personally... first of all, it is to be expected that different people will see the same things differently at times. and that is a good thing. if everybody saw things in the same "groupthink" way, it would be really boring, and there would be no opportunity to grow & learn. the whole board can learn from a healthy, robust debate, and they can be interesting and a lot of fun when channelled constructively (which i hope has been the case here).

as i said earlier, i believe i am in the minority in being high on edwards long term. your position is imo the more conservative and safer one in doubting edwards.

* you made me think it is possible an elite WR like fitz could overcome the increase in double coverage by taking advantage of likely increased targets. it could be for some other WRs, not as good as fitz (nearly everybody, in other words), that this dynamic could be inverted (reduced coverage benefit outweighs decreased targets).

i am very curious to see how edwards does for the balance of the season, and personally am hopeful cotchery can remain in the lineup. and that sanchez improves as the season progresses. i do cut edwards some slack for the fact that he switched teams in-season. there is probably significant overlap (in CLE & NYJ systems), or he couldn't have produced like he did right out of the gate in MIA. as was noted upthread, i think it was just the first or second time since the merger (?) a WR has started for another team the first week after a trade. chambers scored 2 TDs for KC today, but not sure if he started.

BTW, at what point do you think harrison's decline WAS due to aging, and not wayne's presence?

 
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BTW, at what point do you think harrison's decline WAS due to aging, and not wayne's presence?
I'm sure Harrison's physical skills were declining for a while towards the end of his career, but the losses were small and were more than offset by any gains in "savvy" and experience. In the end, it's really hard to say when you have a QB as great as Peyton Manning throwing you the ball, how much of your statistics are the result of your own personal talent and how much is the result of simply playing with such a sublime field general. As a result, I don't think his age really had any impact on his statistics (note: I said statistics, not performance) until he fell off the cliff at 35. I think it's just a matter of anyone good enough to get targets in Peyton Manning's offense is going to produce, and how much you produce is going to be a function of how many targets you get. I think Collie/Garcon/Wayne/Clark/Gonzalez have done a good job of demonstrating that over the past two years, too. Indy and New Orleans are unique in that in those two systems, a WR's value is probably more closely related to that WR's ability to get targets than it is to that WR's innate "ability" or "talent".
 
surprised to not see more love for mccoy in the thread.

he looks like a lock to be westbrook's heir apparent (i think many/most would say he is already), and it could happen sooner rather than later. the eagles organizational history of prioritizing players north of 30 is ominously sparse.

i think kenny britt is the only player in the NFL younger than mccoy or beanie wells.

 
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