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Fear & Loathing

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This is my first year playing in a dynasty league, and I am struggling with something at the moment - I have Frank Gore who I cannot keep because he would be prohibitively expensive to do so (it's also an auction league). I have been offered Lesean McCoy in a package deal for Gore; McCoy would be much cheaper to keep, so that is an attractive possibility, but I am also in the thick of the playoff hunt and I don't want to downgrade on what could be. The actual offer was Bowe + McCoy for Gore ... maybe I'm insane for not considering it, but my squad is pretty decent and it isn't a huge upgrade. I've got Rice, Gore, Caddy for RBs, Cotch, C.J., Lee Evans, and Maclin for WRs. Am I insane for not pulling the trigger?

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Let's talk about Matty Ice. To me, Matt Ryan is still on pace to be a fantasy stud by year 4 (In my mind that's when we can fairly judge him versus other established starters). F&L, I know you were high on him but recently he's fallen in your rankings (and his value number has decreased). Do you think he is regressing? I know the stats aren't as great as everyone would have hoped but I think most of that can be attributed to the running game struggling early, missing Roddy White through most of camp and all the injuries at receiver hurt Ryan's continuity for the first half of the season. He's still on pace for a healthy number of TD's this year...

What does everyone think going forward?

No, I don't think he's regressing. I think the Falcons are riding Michael Turner while he's white-hot.

I think other QBs, specifically Big Ben and Aaron Rodgers, are just producing too well in the present and have plenty of future value of their own. That's why Ryan was dropped. I'm still sky-high on Ryan.

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I have a question /comment about steve smith's(car) ranking. How could he be at #11 when I offer him straight up in my dynasty PPR for anyone ranked in the top 27 I'm be laughed at? I feel there is no other WR who's trade value is more in the toilet and I can't believe he's at #11 when I can't give the dude anyway in a 12 team 30 roster league. Two late rookie 2nd RD picks was the best offer I got so far, IHMO #11 is crazy.

Because the rest of the guys in your league are clueless?
I've been saying that for years lol, but seriously F&L, you would rather own SS then MSW, Harvin, Maclin or even Brandon Marshall?

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This is my first year playing in a dynasty league, and I am struggling with something at the moment - I have Frank Gore who I cannot keep because he would be prohibitively expensive to do so (it's also an auction league). I have been offered Lesean McCoy in a package deal for Gore; McCoy would be much cheaper to keep, so that is an attractive possibility, but I am also in the thick of the playoff hunt and I don't want to downgrade on what could be. The actual offer was Bowe + McCoy for Gore ... maybe I'm insane for not considering it, but my squad is pretty decent and it isn't a huge upgrade. I've got Rice, Gore, Caddy for RBs, Cotch, C.J., Lee Evans, and Maclin for WRs. Am I insane for not pulling the trigger?

No. You play to win championships. Far too often, Dynasty leaguers lose sight of the main goal. Your job is to recognize that championship banners fly forever. Your job is not to build the prettiest roster on paper.

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If we're gonna talk Matt Ryan, I'd love to read some discussion of how his dynasty value relates to Joe Flacco. I find myself drawn more and more to Flacco and I might even prefer him over Ryan at this point.

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I have a question /comment about steve smith's(car) ranking. How could he be at #11 when I offer him straight up in my dynasty PPR for anyone ranked in the top 27 I'm be laughed at? I feel there is no other WR who's trade value is more in the toilet and I can't believe he's at #11 when I can't give the dude anyway in a 12 team 30 roster league. Two late rookie 2nd RD picks was the best offer I got so far, IHMO #11 is crazy.

Because the rest of the guys in your league are clueless?
I've been saying that for years lol, but seriously F&L, you would rather own SS then MSW, Harvin, Maclin or even Brandon Marshall?
Unquestionably.

A stud is a stud. Fickle fantasy owners get down on studs far too easily when the situation around them turns sour. See: Randy Moss in Oakland, Andre Johnson under David Carr, Calvin Johnson this year, MJD with Fred Taylor hanging around, S-Jax last season, etc.

Edit to add: Dynasty leaguers are always talking about either contending or rebuilding, which leaves out a very important subset: what about the bad-luck team that can't compete this season but certainly doesn't need to tear down his roster? That species of owner should be sending offers for Steve Smith and Greg Jennings immediately if not sooner. He doesn't need draft picks; he needs nucleus studs who will turn their game around in 2010.

Edited by Fear & Loathing

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I have a question /comment about steve smith's(car) ranking. How could he be at #11 when I offer him straight up in my dynasty PPR for anyone ranked in the top 27 I'm be laughed at? I feel there is no other WR who's trade value is more in the toilet and I can't believe he's at #11 when I can't give the dude anyway in a 12 team 30 roster league. Two late rookie 2nd RD picks was the best offer I got so far, IHMO #11 is crazy.

Because the rest of the guys in your league are clueless?
:yes:

Even in dynasty people get to caught up in what have you dont for me latley.

I trade H Ward Mason and a late 1st for SS Car and Devery and think I got a great deal.

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Jamal Charles -- a hold or sell at this point? [ppr league]I don't think he's a feature back, but he's got an opportunity here. If you're dealing at this moment, what type rookie pick would you accept for him? His value seems like it could change at an instant [either way].

In Dynasty leagues, I think he's a sell. IMO, he's on the Jerious Norwood/Leon Washington career path. Rookie picks are over-rated. If I wanted to move him, I'd package him with someone else for an upgrade.
Did just that this morning. Dealt Charles & Maclin for Boldin & a 4th rounder. Usually don't deal WR's with such an age disparity, I'm just of the opinion Boldin's got a lot left in the tank and will be on the Hines Ward career path. I could be wrong but I don't see a whole lot to like about Charles. Limitations between the tackles, his coach's use of him [probably as a result of the aforementioned], and the team's situation as a whole.
Exactly the opposite for me. I'd rate Charles as a definite BUY right now, esp in PPR, which is pretty much all I care about. I can't understand why people even play non-PPR anymore, as the scoring is way too inflexible and doesn't suit today's NFL game (RBBC and pass-oriented, spread attacks). But that is another issue altogether.But Charles is ideally suited for Haley's offense, and the time to get him is now before he starts reeling off a few huge statlines the likes of a Ray Rice.....12 carries for 55 yds7 rec for 60 yds 1-2 TDs....Not saying that he is quite the runner that Rice is, but Rice also has some deficiencies between the tackles. His o-line is just plenty good whereas Charles' o-line currently isn't.

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I have a question /comment about steve smith's(car) ranking. How could he be at #11 when I offer him straight up in my dynasty PPR for anyone ranked in the top 27 I'm be laughed at? I feel there is no other WR who's trade value is more in the toilet and I can't believe he's at #11 when I can't give the dude anyway in a 12 team 30 roster league. Two late rookie 2nd RD picks was the best offer I got so far, IHMO #11 is crazy.

Because the rest of the guys in your league are clueless?
I agree, Smith has way too much talent to not regress back to the mean, even with his QB situation.

As a trade value representation I was overjoyed when I traded Eli Manning for Smith and a 1st rounder.

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Wanna try one more time. Could I get your thoughts on Vernon Davis. I am suprised that there isn't more discussion in other threads and among the fantasy community about him. The guy was getting So much hype when he came into the league. The size/speed ratio he brought, along with the fact that many leagues have a mandatory start at TE. I think he is intriguing not only because of his physical makeup, but also the way his career has unfolded thus far. He comes into the league with crazy hype, then after a couple of disappointing seasons fantasy-wise, he is the butt of countless jokes and criticism. Enter 2009 season, and he's been an absolute STUD. Are long-term expectations tempered because of the slow start to his career? Has the proverbial "light come on?" I was burned a few years in a row with this guy and can't be happier that he's finally producing. Because of the history, I have to admit that he's one of my favorite players on my team. So again, I am curious about how Vernon is viewed now that he's been so huge this season. THanks.

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Wanna try one more time. Could I get your thoughts on Vernon Davis. I am suprised that there isn't more discussion in other threads and among the fantasy community about him. The guy was getting So much hype when he came into the league. The size/speed ratio he brought, along with the fact that many leagues have a mandatory start at TE. I think he is intriguing not only because of his physical makeup, but also the way his career has unfolded thus far. He comes into the league with crazy hype, then after a couple of disappointing seasons fantasy-wise, he is the butt of countless jokes and criticism. Enter 2009 season, and he's been an absolute STUD. Are long-term expectations tempered because of the slow start to his career? Has the proverbial "light come on?" I was burned a few years in a row with this guy and can't be happier that he's finally producing. Because of the history, I have to admit that he's one of my favorite players on my team. So again, I am curious about how Vernon is viewed now that he's been so huge this season. THanks.

The light has definitely come on for this guy. Always has been a tireless worker, he now is extremely focused and eliminating most, not quite all, of the mental mistakes that have plagued him in the past. Based on pure talent, there isn't a better TE prospect anywhere. Singletary is the best thing that could have happened to this guy and now fantasy owners who remained patient or bought low will reap huge benefits. Top 3 TE moving forward without a doubt! Edited by kremenull

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Wanna try one more time. Could I get your thoughts on Vernon Davis. I am suprised that there isn't more discussion in other threads and among the fantasy community about him. The guy was getting So much hype when he came into the league. The size/speed ratio he brought, along with the fact that many leagues have a mandatory start at TE. I think he is intriguing not only because of his physical makeup, but also the way his career has unfolded thus far. He comes into the league with crazy hype, then after a couple of disappointing seasons fantasy-wise, he is the butt of countless jokes and criticism. Enter 2009 season, and he's been an absolute STUD. Are long-term expectations tempered because of the slow start to his career? Has the proverbial "light come on?" I was burned a few years in a row with this guy and can't be happier that he's finally producing. Because of the history, I have to admit that he's one of my favorite players on my team. So again, I am curious about how Vernon is viewed now that he's been so huge this season. THanks.

Yes. Vernon Davis is legit.

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I have a question /comment about steve smith's(car) ranking. How could he be at #11 when I offer him straight up in my dynasty PPR for anyone ranked in the top 27 I'm be laughed at? I feel there is no other WR who's trade value is more in the toilet and I can't believe he's at #11 when I can't give the dude anyway in a 12 team 30 roster league. Two late rookie 2nd RD picks was the best offer I got so far, IHMO #11 is crazy.

Because the rest of the guys in your league are clueless?
I agree, Smith has way too much talent to not regress back to the mean, even with his QB situation.

As a trade value representation I was overjoyed when I traded Eli Manning for Smith and a 1st rounder.

WTF? You got Smif and a 1st rounder for Eli?

Who are these people making these trades?

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What are peoples thoughts on Miles Austins price? Trying to trade for him in non ppr dynasty. Feel free to offer PPR based opinions too.I don't know a ton about him. I do know he has six tds in 4 games and though he was held in check by Philly for the most part he made them look silly in one play. Big, explosive, great at breaking tackles. Hands? Routes? I was gently rebuffed when I offered Hester, Choice and two late first rounders for Warner and Austin. I really agonized over Hester too, I love him and I think he will continue to improve but I also have Fitz, VJax, Harvin, and Nicks. What's he worth, what's he cost?

I tried to trade him as the WR1 for RB10 Gore and was shot down.Could have traded him even up for Mendenhall.Ended up trading Austin + JStew + 3rd for Mendenhall + Jennings + Marshall.This is a keep-4 league. My other keepers are Brees, Colston & Calvin.
Tried trading Austin for Mendenhall straight up in a PPR and the guy won't do it. Added a second, he still won't do it. Added a first and he doesn't seem to be willing to let go of Mendenhall for that either. I was pretty shocked. Edited by BeTheMatch

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Wanna try one more time. Could I get your thoughts on Vernon Davis. I am suprised that there isn't more discussion in other threads and among the fantasy community about him. The guy was getting So much hype when he came into the league. The size/speed ratio he brought, along with the fact that many leagues have a mandatory start at TE. I think he is intriguing not only because of his physical makeup, but also the way his career has unfolded thus far. He comes into the league with crazy hype, then after a couple of disappointing seasons fantasy-wise, he is the butt of countless jokes and criticism. Enter 2009 season, and he's been an absolute STUD. Are long-term expectations tempered because of the slow start to his career? Has the proverbial "light come on?" I was burned a few years in a row with this guy and can't be happier that he's finally producing. Because of the history, I have to admit that he's one of my favorite players on my team. So again, I am curious about how Vernon is viewed now that he's been so huge this season. THanks.

Yes. Vernon Davis is legit.
Thanks for the insight.

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Wanna try one more time. Could I get your thoughts on Vernon Davis. I am suprised that there isn't more discussion in other threads and among the fantasy community about him. The guy was getting So much hype when he came into the league. The size/speed ratio he brought, along with the fact that many leagues have a mandatory start at TE. I think he is intriguing not only because of his physical makeup, but also the way his career has unfolded thus far. He comes into the league with crazy hype, then after a couple of disappointing seasons fantasy-wise, he is the butt of countless jokes and criticism. Enter 2009 season, and he's been an absolute STUD. Are long-term expectations tempered because of the slow start to his career? Has the proverbial "light come on?" I was burned a few years in a row with this guy and can't be happier that he's finally producing. Because of the history, I have to admit that he's one of my favorite players on my team. So again, I am curious about how Vernon is viewed now that he's been so huge this season. THanks.

Yes. Vernon Davis is legit.
Thanks for the insight.
No need for sarcasm. We've discussed Vernon Davis several times in the past few weeks, and we don't all have the free time to go back and rehash that discussion.

Davis has an obvious chemistry with Alex Smith. He's been reliable as an outlet target, on intermediate routes, in the red zone, and even on deep balls. Everybody knows he's as physically gifted as any tight end in the league, and Singletary made him the offensive captain, a good indication that he has the mental side down as well.

The Niners' recent move to a pass-first offense with Alex Smith -- including running more than half of their plays out of the shotgun against the Titans -- bodes very well for Davis (as well as Smith, Michael Crabtree, and Frank Gore). Singletary, who never gets enough credit for being intellectually malleable, suggested that the offensive changes could be permanent: "I like the things that work," Singletary said when asked about the shotgun.

I don't expect Davis to continue to put up freakish TD numbers every year, but his receptions and yardage should increase to offset that. As far as long-term expectations, I expect him to be an annual Top-5 to Top-10.

Edited by Fear & Loathing

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Wanna try one more time. Could I get your thoughts on Vernon Davis. I am suprised that there isn't more discussion in other threads and among the fantasy community about him. The guy was getting So much hype when he came into the league. The size/speed ratio he brought, along with the fact that many leagues have a mandatory start at TE. I think he is intriguing not only because of his physical makeup, but also the way his career has unfolded thus far. He comes into the league with crazy hype, then after a couple of disappointing seasons fantasy-wise, he is the butt of countless jokes and criticism. Enter 2009 season, and he's been an absolute STUD. Are long-term expectations tempered because of the slow start to his career? Has the proverbial "light come on?" I was burned a few years in a row with this guy and can't be happier that he's finally producing. Because of the history, I have to admit that he's one of my favorite players on my team. So again, I am curious about how Vernon is viewed now that he's been so huge this season. THanks.

Yes. Vernon Davis is legit.
Thanks for the insight.
Can't tell is that's sarcasm? If you read this thread much you know F&L knows what he is talking about. There is tons of info on Davis in this thread....

Without recapping it all which is tedious he is letting you know quickly that he is as good as he looks.

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I have a question /comment about steve smith's(car) ranking. How could he be at #11 when I offer him straight up in my dynasty PPR for anyone ranked in the top 27 I'm be laughed at? I feel there is no other WR who's trade value is more in the toilet and I can't believe he's at #11 when I can't give the dude anyway in a 12 team 30 roster league. Two late rookie 2nd RD picks was the best offer I got so far, IHMO #11 is crazy.

Because the rest of the guys in your league are clueless?
Well said. Smith's perceived value has never been lower. But I'd be looking to buy him now. He's an immensely talented player on a team that is almost sure to upgrade the QB situation in the offseason.

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What's the opinion on Antonio Gates from a dynasty perspective? On the one hand he's had foot issues the past two seasons, but OTOH is only 29 and has a gunslinger for a QB. In my scoring format, I was surprised to see he's had just 1 game where he put up great TE1 numbers, week 4 (24 points). He's had 4-8 points in all other weeks, which seems pretty low consistency by Gates standards. Is this a good buy low opportunity or a sign of things to come?

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Wanna try one more time. Could I get your thoughts on Vernon Davis. I am suprised that there isn't more discussion in other threads and among the fantasy community about him. The guy was getting So much hype when he came into the league. The size/speed ratio he brought, along with the fact that many leagues have a mandatory start at TE. I think he is intriguing not only because of his physical makeup, but also the way his career has unfolded thus far. He comes into the league with crazy hype, then after a couple of disappointing seasons fantasy-wise, he is the butt of countless jokes and criticism. Enter 2009 season, and he's been an absolute STUD. Are long-term expectations tempered because of the slow start to his career? Has the proverbial "light come on?" I was burned a few years in a row with this guy and can't be happier that he's finally producing. Because of the history, I have to admit that he's one of my favorite players on my team. So again, I am curious about how Vernon is viewed now that he's been so huge this season. THanks.

Yes. Vernon Davis is legit.
Thanks for the insight.
No need for sarcasm. We've discussed Vernon Davis several times in the past few weeks, and we don't all have the free time to go back and rehash that discussion.

Davis has an obvious chemistry with Alex Smith. He's been reliable as an outlet target, on intermediate routes, in the red zone, and even on deep balls. Everybody knows he's as physically gifted as any tight end in the league, and Singletary made him the offensive captain, a good indication that he has the mental side down as well.

The Niners' recent move to a pass-first offense with Alex Smith -- including running more than half of their plays out of the shotgun against the Titans -- bodes very well for Davis (as well as Smith, Michael Crabtree, and Frank Gore). Singletary, who never gets enough credit for being intellectually malleable, suggested that the offensive changes could be permanent: "I like the things that work," Singletary said when asked about the shotgun.

I don't expect Davis to continue to put up freakish TD numbers every year, but his receptions and yardage should increase to offset that. As far as long-term expectations, I expect him to be an annual Top-5 to Top-10.

I might be wrong, but I don't think Rushmore is being sarcastic. Since you're the guru of the dynasty thread, maybe no amount of discussion on a player feels complete without you chiming in, so you just capped the discussion for RM.

I remember reading something by Football Outsiders (at least I think it was them) about how 1st round TEs almost always pan out, but almost never right away. How good must Vernon Davis be to be putting up these numbers in SF? I would have guessed they'd need a better QB before we'd see these numbers from Davis.

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I have a question /comment about steve smith's(car) ranking. How could he be at #11 when I offer him straight up in my dynasty PPR for anyone ranked in the top 27 I'm be laughed at? I feel there is no other WR who's trade value is more in the toilet and I can't believe he's at #11 when I can't give the dude anyway in a 12 team 30 roster league. Two late rookie 2nd RD picks was the best offer I got so far, IHMO #11 is crazy.

Because the rest of the guys in your league are clueless?
I agree, Smith has way too much talent to not regress back to the mean, even with his QB situation.

As a trade value representation I was overjoyed when I traded Eli Manning for Smith and a 1st rounder.

WTF? You got Smif and a 1st rounder for Eli?

Who are these people making these trades?

I then turned around and traded that 1st rounder with my 1st rounder and Percy Harvin for Vincent Jackson. Not as good of a deal value wise but I got value for Harvin whom Im not as high on as most people. I've gotten some killer deals using your blog + my perceptions along with active trading :yes:

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What's the opinion on Antonio Gates from a dynasty perspective? On the one hand he's had foot issues the past two seasons, but OTOH is only 29 and has a gunslinger for a QB. In my scoring format, I was surprised to see he's had just 1 game where he put up great TE1 numbers, week 4 (24 points). He's had 4-8 points in all other weeks, which seems pretty low consistency by Gates standards. Is this a good buy low opportunity or a sign of things to come?

I think a good buy low. His ypg is the highest of his career and almost his highest ypr. All that's missing is the TDs. Vincent Jackson is stealing all of them.

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I have a question /comment about steve smith's(car) ranking. How could he be at #11 when I offer him straight up in my dynasty PPR for anyone ranked in the top 27 I'm be laughed at? I feel there is no other WR who's trade value is more in the toilet and I can't believe he's at #11 when I can't give the dude anyway in a 12 team 30 roster league. Two late rookie 2nd RD picks was the best offer I got so far, IHMO #11 is crazy.

Because the rest of the guys in your league are clueless?
I agree, Smith has way too much talent to not regress back to the mean, even with his QB situation.

As a trade value representation I was overjoyed when I traded Eli Manning for Smith and a 1st rounder.

WTF? You got Smif and a 1st rounder for Eli?

Who are these people making these trades?

I then turned around and traded that 1st rounder with my 1st rounder and Percy Harvin for Vincent Jackson. Not as good of a deal value wise but I got value for Harvin whom Im not as high on as most people. I've gotten some killer deals using your blog + my perceptions + some silly owners along with active trading :goodposting:
Fixed

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Wanna try one more time. Could I get your thoughts on Vernon Davis. I am suprised that there isn't more discussion in other threads and among the fantasy community about him. The guy was getting So much hype when he came into the league. The size/speed ratio he brought, along with the fact that many leagues have a mandatory start at TE. I think he is intriguing not only because of his physical makeup, but also the way his career has unfolded thus far. He comes into the league with crazy hype, then after a couple of disappointing seasons fantasy-wise, he is the butt of countless jokes and criticism. Enter 2009 season, and he's been an absolute STUD. Are long-term expectations tempered because of the slow start to his career? Has the proverbial "light come on?" I was burned a few years in a row with this guy and can't be happier that he's finally producing. Because of the history, I have to admit that he's one of my favorite players on my team. So again, I am curious about how Vernon is viewed now that he's been so huge this season. THanks.

Yes. Vernon Davis is legit.
Thanks for the insight.
No need for sarcasm. We've discussed Vernon Davis several times in the past few weeks, and we don't all have the free time to go back and rehash that discussion.

Davis has an obvious chemistry with Alex Smith. He's been reliable as an outlet target, on intermediate routes, in the red zone, and even on deep balls. Everybody knows he's as physically gifted as any tight end in the league, and Singletary made him the offensive captain, a good indication that he has the mental side down as well.

The Niners' recent move to a pass-first offense with Alex Smith -- including running more than half of their plays out of the shotgun against the Titans -- bodes very well for Davis (as well as Smith, Michael Crabtree, and Frank Gore). Singletary, who never gets enough credit for being intellectually malleable, suggested that the offensive changes could be permanent: "I like the things that work," Singletary said when asked about the shotgun.

I don't expect Davis to continue to put up freakish TD numbers every year, but his receptions and yardage should increase to offset that. As far as long-term expectations, I expect him to be an annual Top-5 to Top-10.

I might be wrong, but I don't think Rushmore is being sarcastic. Since you're the guru of the dynasty thread, maybe no amount of discussion on a player feels complete without you chiming in, so you just capped the discussion for RM.

I remember reading something by Football Outsiders (at least I think it was them) about how 1st round TEs almost always pan out, but almost never right away. How good must Vernon Davis be to be putting up these numbers in SF? I would have guessed they'd need a better QB before we'd see these numbers from Davis.

I didn't want to muddy up what is a fantastic thread (perhaps my favorite in the whole forum), but want to clarify a bit to end it with this post hopefully, since there have been 3 replies already. I actually pm'd F&L to explain to keep it out of the thread lol. Anyway, thanks for your thoughts too. This may be hard to explain, but to sum it up (and what i tried to say in my pm) is that my actual post/response wasn't intended as a sarcastic reply publicly, but in all honesty there was a slight degree of disappointment that had stemmed from asking a few other times a page or two ago and just wanting some sort of reply like others were getting. My post was kind of a "i'll just leave it alone" type of thing, but perhaps some of my real feelings on the matter sort of shown through. Anyway, it's all good....I'll prefer to just kick back and continue enjoying what again, is an awesome thread. Thanks to those who contribute. :goodposting:

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With the impending return of Darren McFadden this weekend, anyone have any thoughts on his value in a dynasty PPR league? He's been offered to me along with a 2010 2nd rounder for my 2010 1st rounder. To me, it seems like a no-brainer to accept, but 1st round picks in this league are more valuable because it's a start 2-QB league with only 12 owners, so rookie QBs are way more valuable than in other leagues. Plus, I'm finding it hard to pull the trigger on acquiring anyone in the Raiders offense. Is McFadden's talent and upside worth the chance or is he a Raider for the next few years (under contract until 2013???) which kills his value.

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If you actively look for trades in your league, you will find owners that value some players or picks fairly high. If you aren't finding these kind of deals its because you're not looking or you're in a VERY stingy league.

Edit: It is easier in dynasty leagues due to the obvious "do I start to rebuild or try to win now" factor

Edited by one time

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I then turned around and traded that 1st rounder with my 1st rounder and Percy Harvin for Vincent Jackson. Not as good of a deal value wise but I got value for Harvin whom Im not as high on as most people. I've gotten some killer deals using your blog + my perceptions + some silly owners along with active trading :thumbup:

Fixed
Correct.

I'd like to see fewer of these "trade value representations" being peddled as useful. 99.9999% of Steve Smiff owners are not bundling him with a 1st for Elisha Manning. You found the one that would, congrats, but it doesn't contribute to the thread.

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I'd like to see fewer of these "trade value representations" being peddled as useful.

I'm of a like mind. I like seeing the increased participation lately, but the trade questions are turning this into an assistant coach/what would you do thread. I wish I could pin a response to the increasingly common "Which player should I target in return if I want to deal ________." Look, the blog rankings are a free guideline, the discussion here -- with SSOG bringing his A-game -- is free and increasingly more valuable. Rotoworld has free player analysis and updates. Football Outsiders has advanced metrics for free. The information is out there. Study up on the free knowledge-drops, look over the rosters in your league to find a match for your player, target a player you like on that roster, and then offer a trade for him. You want us to pleasure your wife for you too while we're running your fantasy team? :wall: Edited by Fear & Loathing

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I didn't want to muddy up what is a fantastic thread (perhaps my favorite in the whole forum), but want to clarify a bit to end it with this post hopefully, since there have been 3 replies already. I actually pm'd F&L to explain to keep it out of the thread lol. Anyway, thanks for your thoughts too. This may be hard to explain, but to sum it up (and what i tried to say in my pm) is that my actual post/response wasn't intended as a sarcastic reply publicly, but in all honesty there was a slight degree of disappointment that had stemmed from asking a few other times a page or two ago and just wanting some sort of reply like others were getting. My post was kind of a "i'll just leave it alone" type of thing, but perhaps some of my real feelings on the matter sort of shown through. Anyway, it's all good....I'll prefer to just kick back and continue enjoying what again, is an awesome thread. Thanks to those who contribute. :wall:

It's all good. :bag:

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I'd like to see fewer of these "trade value representations" being peddled as useful.

I'm of a like mind. I like seeing the increased participation lately, but the trade questions are turning this into an assistant coach/what would you do thread.

I wish I could pin a response to the increasingly common "Which player should I target in return if I want to deal ________." Look, the blog rankings are a free guideline, the discussion here -- with SSOG bringing his A-game -- is free and increasingly more valuable. Rotoworld has free player analysis and updates. Football Outsiders has advanced metrics for free. The information is out there. Study up on the free knowledge-drops, look over the rosters in your league to find a match for your player, target a player you like on that roster, and then offer a trade for him. You want us to pleasure your wife for you too while we're running your fantasy team?

:thumbup:

As long as I'm not home at the time, help yourself. ;)

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I'd like to see fewer of these "trade value representations" being peddled as useful.

I'm of a like mind. I like seeing the increased participation lately, but the trade questions are turning this into an assistant coach/what would you do thread. I wish I could pin a response to the increasingly common "Which player should I target in return if I want to deal ________." Look, the blog rankings are a free guideline, the discussion here -- with SSOG bringing his A-game -- is free and increasingly more valuable. Rotoworld has free player analysis and updates. Football Outsiders has advanced metrics for free. The information is out there. Study up on the free knowledge-drops, look over the rosters in your league to find a match for your player, target a player you like on that roster, and then offer a trade for him. You want us to pleasure your wife for you too while we're running your fantasy team? ;)
Thank you. Been thinking this for a while. Too much AC stuff in this thread this year. Adding a lot of pages, but not a lot of value.

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but Rice also has some deficiencies between the tackles.

Not really. Rice may be small in stature but he's built thick and runs with power and great balance. He's built like and runs a lot like Emmit Smith who was a fine inside runner. Charles is a lot more slender and doesn't have the frame to add a lot of weight. I do agree that he is talented and should be a good ppr player though.ETA: At Rutgers he was also a fine inside runner. In fact he was hardly ever used like he's being used in Baltimore (as a pass catcher out in space). Edited by Dr. Octopus

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I have a question /comment about steve smith's(car) ranking. How could he be at #11 when I offer him straight up in my dynasty PPR for anyone ranked in the top 27 I'm be laughed at? I feel there is no other WR who's trade value is more in the toilet and I can't believe he's at #11 when I can't give the dude anyway in a 12 team 30 roster league. Two late rookie 2nd RD picks was the best offer I got so far, IHMO #11 is crazy.

Because the rest of the guys in your league are clueless?
I agree, Smith has way too much talent to not regress back to the mean, even with his QB situation.

As a trade value representation I was overjoyed when I traded Eli Manning for Smith and a 1st rounder.

:(

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I then turned around and traded that 1st rounder with my 1st rounder and Percy Harvin for Vincent Jackson. Not as good of a deal value wise but I got value for Harvin whom Im not as high on as most people. I've gotten some killer deals using your blog + my perceptions + some silly owners along with active trading :(

Fixed
Correct.

I'd like to see fewer of these "trade value representations" being peddled as useful. 99.9999% of Steve Smiff owners are not bundling him with a 1st for Elisha Manning. You found the one that would, congrats, but it doesn't contribute to the thread.

In general I agree. But some people post trades that do offer insite to value.

I think it was SSOG that said he got Caldwell and a 4th for Mason and a 3rd.

That seems to show decent market value.

And when I said I got SS and Devery for H ward Mason and a 1st. I think thats probably closer to market value and I hope it helps others looking to make deals.

I think its more about some bragging about there sweet deals and that does nothing for this thread.

Edited by Colts Win

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With the impending return of Darren McFadden this weekend, anyone have any thoughts on his value in a dynasty PPR league? He's been offered to me along with a 2010 2nd rounder for my 2010 1st rounder. To me, it seems like a no-brainer to accept, but 1st round picks in this league are more valuable because it's a start 2-QB league with only 12 owners, so rookie QBs are way more valuable than in other leagues. Plus, I'm finding it hard to pull the trigger on acquiring anyone in the Raiders offense. Is McFadden's talent and upside worth the chance or is he a Raider for the next few years (under contract until 2013???) which kills his value.

The resurgence of Cedric Benson actually affected my thinking when I traded for McFadden. I'm also in a Dynasty PPR, and I acquired McFadden for my 2010 first round pick (late). If Cedric Benson (by all accounts this time last year, a total bust) can have such a resurgence, I believe in McFadden's long term value regardless of team. He's only 22 years old, and he's certainly talented. I'd say go for it.

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but Rice also has some deficiencies between the tackles.

Not really. Rice may be small in stature but he's built thick and runs with power and great balance. He's built like and runs a lot like Emmit Smith who was a fine inside runner. Charles is a lot more slender and doesn't have the frame to add a lot of weight. I do agree that he is talented and should be a good ppr player though.ETA: At Rutgers he was also a fine inside runner. In fact he was hardly ever used like he's being used in Baltimore (as a pass catcher out in space).
From what I recall from the '08 season, Rice primarily made his mark out of the spread formation, running a lot of draws and off-tackle plays. This season, from what I've seen hasn't been that much different. Can he run inside pretty well? Yes. But it has a whole lot to do with the o-line moreso than his talents regarding this issue. Again, I'm not comparing him to Charles as an inside runner, but let's not get to thinking that this kid is MJD.......nor is he Emmitt Smith, the all-time leading rusher in the NFL. Rice has about 2 or 3 games of 20+ carries, he's making his living in space right now.

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I then turned around and traded that 1st rounder with my 1st rounder and Percy Harvin for Vincent Jackson. Not as good of a deal value wise but I got value for Harvin whom Im not as high on as most people. I've gotten some killer deals using your blog + my perceptions + some silly owners along with active trading :thumbup:

Fixed
Correct.

I'd like to see fewer of these "trade value representations" being peddled as useful. 99.9999% of Steve Smiff owners are not bundling him with a 1st for Elisha Manning. You found the one that would, congrats, but it doesn't contribute to the thread.

In general I agree. But some people post trades that do offer insite to value.

I think it was SSOG that said he got Caldwell and a 4th for Mason and a 3rd.

That seems to show decent market value.

And when I said I got SS and Devery for H ward Mason and a 1st. I think thats probably closer to market value and I hope it helps others looking to make deals.

I think its more about some bragging about there sweet deals and that does nothing for this thread.

I'm new to the board, so maybe I've posted a few things were not relevant to this thread. I've never asked for trade advice, but I did ask about Welker's value in a post. Mostly, I've just asked and responded to discussion concerning the strengths and weaknesses of players, and a few discussions concerning strategy. I do agree that this shouldn't be a WDIS thread, but I can also see how discussing certain players perceived value could fall into a gray area. I'll keep the value questions out from now on. I stumbled upon this thread a few months back and it's the reason I joined the board. I love to discuss strategy and prospects, so hopefully I can add to thread in the future.

BTW, I'm a Browns homer. If you have any questions concerning Browns prospects, shoot away. Don't laugh. :shock:

Edited by GreatLakesMike

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1) I find it interesting that your main argument for Henderson is his yards per target, when Meachem is averaging 15 yards per target in his career. You also just admitted Henderson is what he is - a great deep threat. He's in no danger of seeing increased targets.

...

2) I think it's likely Meachem doesn't carve out a larger role this year, but that's more a function of the way Payton has chosen to run the team. He's not making any changes while they're winning, from Reggie Bush's role right on down to keeping Carney over Hartley. Next year, it's very possible the offense evolves to have Meachem playing Boldin to Colston's Fitz and Henderson's Breaston. Yes yes, he's no Boldin (though he was compared to him pre-draft) - I'm simply trying to lay out what I think their roles could be. I see Meachem having a good chance at being a move the chains type with great YAC potential, while Colston draws coverage and remains the redzone threat with his glue hands, and Henderson stretches the field in 3-WR sets like he always has.

...

3) So wait, now you're saying Meachem is effective but maybe he doesn't deserve credit for it? If you're not sure how much should be attributed to Brees, then how can you be so sure Henderson's play is a function of his own talent? And don't tell me because he was doing it before Brees - he's had a grand total of one playing season sans Brees, and Aaron Brooks, for all his faults, was no slouch on the deep ball.

...

4) Oh I certainly batted an eye. However, there's not much to say about Britt right now that hasn't already been said. When he's been thrown to, he's looked the part - problem is he's not being thrown to anymore. I like him, but then again I also drafted him so I should probably like him more than someone who didn't. I see no reason to argue for him right now - next season will give us more knowledge about his prospects.

1) Robert Meachem has 39 targets for his entire career. 39. For his entire career. In two and a half years. Henderson has more targets so far this year (in 8 games!) than Meachem has for his entire career. Henderson had more targets last year than Meachem has for his entire career. Henderson had more targets in 2007 than Meachem had for his entire career. Henderson had more targets in 2006 than Meachem had in his entire career. Henderson had more targets in 2005 than Meachem has in his entire two and a half year career. Can you see why I might consider Henderson's per-target numbers to be a little bit more valid and indicative than Meachem's? Heck, the opposing defenses are still always borderline shocked whenever Brees actually throws it in Meachem's direction. Also, who says Henderson is in no danger of getting an increased role? His targets this year are up 40% over his targets last year. I don't think he'll ever get a massive volume of targets, but as I said, when you're the best role player in the entire league you are never in any danger of having your role decreased. Meachem is likewise in no danger of having his role decreased, but that's mostly a function of it being impossible for him to have any smaller of a role than the one he currently has.

2) Colston, Meachem, and Henderson are going to become Fitz, Boldin, and Breaston? Aside from the fact that Colston's a different player from Fitz, Meachem is no Boldin, and Henderson has a completely different skillset than Breaston, that's pretty feasible :confused:. More seriously, there aren't enough targets in New Orleans for that trio to turn out like the Arizona trio. The Cards are on pace for 600 passing attempts this season. Last year, they had 630. Two years ago, they had 590. This year, the Saints are on pace for 530. Yes, the Saints did have massive pass attempt numbers last year and the year before, but that was when the defense was a seive and the team had a losing record. As long as this is a winning team with a solid defense, there aren't enough balls to support 3 fantasy receivers... and as I said, I think Henderson is too good in his role for him to be the guy the Saints cut out.

3) Yes, Meachem has been effective the 19 times he has been targeted this season. You know who else has been super-effective on a miniscule number of targets this year? Brian Hartline. Jarrett Dillard. And in the case of both of those WRs, there's no question of their QB making them look better than they truly are. I can't be sure that Henderson's ability is the result of his talent rather than Brees, but it doesn't matter, because HENDERSON ALREADY HAS A ROLE IN THE OFFENSE. As I said, either Meachem stays and plays 3rd fiddle with Brees, or he goes elsewhere and plays 2nd fiddle with someone else. Henderson, on the other hand, is locked in to the 2nd fiddle role with Drew Brees.

4) If you think I'm out of line on Meachem and Britt, then who did I put above them that you'd but them over? Gonzo, who is my odds-on pick for the #2 WR role in Indy? James Jones, who is my odds-on pick for the #2 role in GB? Maclin, who's looked great and already has the #2 role in Philly? Jacoby, who's looked fantastic and is really taking a step forward this year? Kellen Winslow, who is the highest paid TE in the league and an absolute target monster? Malcolm Floyd, who is my odds-on pick for the #2 WR in San Diego? Greg Olsen, who's coming off a 3-TD game and was a chic pick as a top 5 dynasty TE before the season? I could easily move Meachem ahead of Collie- those two are a tossup for me, with Collie representing a higher ceiling and Meachem representing a higher floor. Other than that, who am I ranking too high? It's not that I'm saying I wouldn't want either Meachem or Britt, it's that I'm saying that I wouldn't want either over the guys I have above them.

I have a question /comment about steve smith's(car) ranking. How could he be at #11 when I offer him straight up in my dynasty PPR for anyone ranked in the top 27 I'm laughed at? I feel there is no other WR who's trade value is more in the toilet and I can't believe he's at #11 when I can't give the dude anyway in a 12 team 30 roster league. Two late rookie 2nd RD picks was the best offer I got so far, IHMO #11 is crazy.

Smiff can be WR11 when his value is in the toilet because the dynasty rankings try to estimate ACTUAL value, not PERCEIVED value. The fact that there's such a huge delta between his ACTUAL value and his PERCEIVED value simply means that he's an unbelievably good buy-low target. If the delta between his perceived and actual value was as big in the opposite direction, then he'd be the perfect SELL HIGH candidate (example: the OTHER Steve Smith).

F&L,

I have James Jones. Jacoby Jones is available, and you just moved him up (because Daniels went down?).

I was thinking of dropping Mike Thomas for Jacoby.

Maybe you could explain where you think each of the Jones' stands for next year and beyond?

At this point are they basically a wash until we see more?

Cheers.

I've gone back and forth on James Jones and Jordy Nelson, but I really think that James is pulling away right now, and I think he's the odds-on favorite to win the #2 job in Green Bay once Driver bows out. I have him solidly above Jacoby Jones, who at this point is a much more speculative type player. There's a lot more uncertainty surrounding whether Jacoby is going to get the #2 job in Houston any time soon... and the #2 in Green Bay is inherently more valuable than the #2 in Houston, anyway. I like both WRs, but I like James Jones better.

What's the opinion on Antonio Gates from a dynasty perspective? On the one hand he's had foot issues the past two seasons, but OTOH is only 29 and has a gunslinger for a QB. In my scoring format, I was surprised to see he's had just 1 game where he put up great TE1 numbers, week 4 (24 points). He's had 4-8 points in all other weeks, which seems pretty low consistency by Gates standards. Is this a good buy low opportunity or a sign of things to come?

Consistency from a TE is usually a pipe dream. TEs don't score enough points over a full season to expect consistent production on a week-to-week basis. Earlier in this thread I was comparing how many times TEs scored back-to-back 10+ point games last season, and outside of Witten/Daniels/Cooley, there was no such thing as a "consistent" performer.

Besides, consistency (perceived or actual) is an incredibly overrated commodity in fantasy football. I don't care how the points were scored, I just care that they were scored. If a WR gets you 10 points every single week, then he's never really helping you or hurting you. You won't lose a single game because of him, but you won't win a single game because of him, either. If another WR is getting you 20 points half the time and 0 points half the time, then he's going to single-handedly do a lot to help you win half the time... and single-handedly do a lot to help you lose the other half of the time. Neither is really any more preferable than the other, provided you have a long enough leash to be willing to eat the bad games from the inconsistent performer so that he doesn't wind up on your bench for the good games.

With the impending return of Darren McFadden this weekend, anyone have any thoughts on his value in a dynasty PPR league? He's been offered to me along with a 2010 2nd rounder for my 2010 1st rounder. To me, it seems like a no-brainer to accept, but 1st round picks in this league are more valuable because it's a start 2-QB league with only 12 owners, so rookie QBs are way more valuable than in other leagues. Plus, I'm finding it hard to pull the trigger on acquiring anyone in the Raiders offense. Is McFadden's talent and upside worth the chance or is he a Raider for the next few years (under contract until 2013???) which kills his value.

Late first? Sure. You won't see anyone anywhere near McFadden's talent level at the end of the first round next year. Early first? debatable, but it depends on how your WR corps looks. There are some really nice looking WRs coming out next year.

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In general I agree. But some people post trades that do offer insite to value.I think it was SSOG that said he got Caldwell and a 4th for Mason and a 3rd.That seems to show decent market value.And when I said I got SS and Devery for H ward Mason and a 1st. I think thats probably closer to market value and I hope it helps others looking to make deals.I think its more about some bragging about there sweet deals and that does nothing for this thread.

That was EBF who pulled off the Caldwell trade in question. I landed Caldwell for my #1 waiver priority after week 1 because he impressed me so much against Denver.

Can I get a list of the most underrated, buy-low, best trade-target Dynasty WR's at this point? (3-5 players should do) :shrug:

You joke that it's a fishing trip, but I actually think this is a quality question. Questions like "do you like ______ more than _______?" only pertain to 5% of dynasty owners. Questions like "What do you think about ________?" pertain to maybe 20% of dynasty owners. Questions like "Who are good targets to buy low?" pertain to everyone.For my part, I think some great buy low targets are Smiff (already discussed), Vincent Jackson (I know he's not cheap, but I have him at WR4 and his cost hasn't risen anywhere near that high yet, so now is the time to buy), James Jones (it's looking like he's the guy who'll take over for Driver going forward), Chas Schilens (out of sight, out of mind... it's easy to forget, but the Raiders won't be this terrible forever), and Devin Hester (there are still a lot of skeptics who are convinced he can't be an NFL #1).

I'm new to the board, so maybe I've posted a few things were not relevant to this thread. I've never asked for trade advice, but I did ask about Welker's value in a post. Mostly, I've just asked and responded to discussion concerning the strengths and weaknesses of players, and a few discussions concerning strategy. I do agree that this shouldn't be a WDIS thread, but I can also see how discussing certain players perceived value could fall into a gray area. I'll keep the value questions out from now on. I stumbled upon this thread a few months back and it's the reason I joined the board. I love to discuss strategy and prospects, so hopefully I can add to thread in the future. BTW, I'm a Browns homer. If you have any questions concerning Browns prospects, shoot away. Don't laugh. :lmao:

I don't think there's anything wrong with asking questions, just make sure the questions are very broad and applicable to everyone (for instance, instead of asking "How much is Darren McFadden worth?", try asking "what kind of difference does pedigree really make if a young RB is underperforming?"). Also, a great way to post would be to start out by giving an opinion of your own, and asking for others' thoughts on it. That makes your post a lot easier to reply to and discuss, partly because I have a better starting point or because you might make me think of something I hadn't thought of before, and partly because it doesn't feel like you're just popping in and asking to be spoonfed.I'm not really addressing this towards you in particular, because I think you've definitely contributed to the discussion so far (here and elsewhere in the SP), I was more addressing this to everyone in general. Sort of a "How To Post In The Dynasty Thread".

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How does everyone feel about Welker in PPR leagues? I've received some really bad offers for him, which puzzles me. This guy has been a #1 in PPR leagues for going on 3 straight years now. I understand that Welker shouldn't be valued as high as Fitz, Calvin, and AJ.... but the offers I'm getting are on par with what should be offered for a 27 year old low end #2 WR/high end #3 WR. I think he should be valued as a high end #2 at the very least in PPR leagues.

Welker is a WR1 in PPR leagues. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. I wouldn't deal him period. I don't know how much more WR1 finishes he needs to prove he's just that. Brady's got another 5-8 years.He's not Fitz/Calvin/AJ, but he's very much in that next group. Edited by Sudoku_in_the_Bathtub

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1) I find it interesting that your main argument for Henderson is his yards per target, when Meachem is averaging 15 yards per target in his career. You also just admitted Henderson is what he is - a great deep threat. He's in no danger of seeing increased targets.

...

2) I think it's likely Meachem doesn't carve out a larger role this year, but that's more a function of the way Payton has chosen to run the team. He's not making any changes while they're winning, from Reggie Bush's role right on down to keeping Carney over Hartley. Next year, it's very possible the offense evolves to have Meachem playing Boldin to Colston's Fitz and Henderson's Breaston. Yes yes, he's no Boldin (though he was compared to him pre-draft) - I'm simply trying to lay out what I think their roles could be. I see Meachem having a good chance at being a move the chains type with great YAC potential, while Colston draws coverage and remains the redzone threat with his glue hands, and Henderson stretches the field in 3-WR sets like he always has.

...

3) So wait, now you're saying Meachem is effective but maybe he doesn't deserve credit for it? If you're not sure how much should be attributed to Brees, then how can you be so sure Henderson's play is a function of his own talent? And don't tell me because he was doing it before Brees - he's had a grand total of one playing season sans Brees, and Aaron Brooks, for all his faults, was no slouch on the deep ball.

...

4) Oh I certainly batted an eye. However, there's not much to say about Britt right now that hasn't already been said. When he's been thrown to, he's looked the part - problem is he's not being thrown to anymore. I like him, but then again I also drafted him so I should probably like him more than someone who didn't. I see no reason to argue for him right now - next season will give us more knowledge about his prospects.

1) Robert Meachem has 39 targets for his entire career. 39. For his entire career. In two and a half years. Henderson has more targets so far this year (in 8 games!) than Meachem has for his entire career. Henderson had more targets last year than Meachem has for his entire career. Henderson had more targets in 2007 than Meachem had for his entire career. Henderson had more targets in 2006 than Meachem had in his entire career. Henderson had more targets in 2005 than Meachem has in his entire two and a half year career. Can you see why I might consider Henderson's per-target numbers to be a little bit more valid and indicative than Meachem's? Heck, the opposing defenses are still always borderline shocked whenever Brees actually throws it in Meachem's direction. Also, who says Henderson is in no danger of getting an increased role? His targets this year are up 40% over his targets last year. I don't think he'll ever get a massive volume of targets, but as I said, when you're the best role player in the entire league you are never in any danger of having your role decreased. Meachem is likewise in no danger of having his role decreased, but that's mostly a function of it being impossible for him to have any smaller of a role than the one he currently has.

2) Colston, Meachem, and Henderson are going to become Fitz, Boldin, and Breaston? Aside from the fact that Colston's a different player from Fitz, Meachem is no Boldin, and Henderson has a completely different skillset than Breaston, that's pretty feasible :heart:. More seriously, there aren't enough targets in New Orleans for that trio to turn out like the Arizona trio. The Cards are on pace for 600 passing attempts this season. Last year, they had 630. Two years ago, they had 590. This year, the Saints are on pace for 530. Yes, the Saints did have massive pass attempt numbers last year and the year before, but that was when the defense was a seive and the team had a losing record. As long as this is a winning team with a solid defense, there aren't enough balls to support 3 fantasy receivers... and as I said, I think Henderson is too good in his role for him to be the guy the Saints cut out.

3) Yes, Meachem has been effective the 19 times he has been targeted this season. You know who else has been super-effective on a miniscule number of targets this year? Brian Hartline. Jarrett Dillard. And in the case of both of those WRs, there's no question of their QB making them look better than they truly are. I can't be sure that Henderson's ability is the result of his talent rather than Brees, but it doesn't matter, because HENDERSON ALREADY HAS A ROLE IN THE OFFENSE. As I said, either Meachem stays and plays 3rd fiddle with Brees, or he goes elsewhere and plays 2nd fiddle with someone else. Henderson, on the other hand, is locked in to the 2nd fiddle role with Drew Brees.

4) If you think I'm out of line on Meachem and Britt, then who did I put above them that you'd but them over? Gonzo, who is my odds-on pick for the #2 WR role in Indy? James Jones, who is my odds-on pick for the #2 role in GB? Maclin, who's looked great and already has the #2 role in Philly? Jacoby, who's looked fantastic and is really taking a step forward this year? Kellen Winslow, who is the highest paid TE in the league and an absolute target monster? Malcolm Floyd, who is my odds-on pick for the #2 WR in San Diego? Greg Olsen, who's coming off a 3-TD game and was a chic pick as a top 5 dynasty TE before the season? I could easily move Meachem ahead of Collie- those two are a tossup for me, with Collie representing a higher ceiling and Meachem representing a higher floor. Other than that, who am I ranking too high? It's not that I'm saying I wouldn't want either Meachem or Britt, it's that I'm saying that I wouldn't want either over the guys I have above them.

Sigh. You're taking this pretty seriously.

1 - Yeah he doesn't have many targets for his career. Henderson also had none his rookie season and only 22 catches his sophomore year and that was before Payton brought the circus to town, so presumably there'd be quite a few more balls to go around. I get that Henderson has a longer track record, but I also don't see a reason to believe Meachem wouldn't have similar numbers over the same number of seasons. In fact, he'd probably have far better numbers simply by not having Henderson's stone hands.

2 - I didn't say they'd be the same players, I said they'd have similar roles. I don't think Henderson is nearly as irreplaceable as you do and I firmly don't believe the pass-happy Saints days are over, which is coming from a fan's perspective.

3 - Ditto, no need to rehash it. You think Henderson is an outright MVP, I think he's marginal at best... and that's after seeing every snap he's ever played.

4 - I didn't really care about your list so I didn't spend anytime crafting a rebuttal. But if you must know, I'd go:

Winslow

Britt

Maclin

Olsen

James Jones

Jacoby Jones

Meachem

Collie

Gonzalez

Floyd

That's right - I don't like Gonzalez and I've never regretted trading him two years ago for a high 2nd and Berrian.

EDIT: oops, should have put Collie over Gonzo.

Edited by valhallan

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From what I recall from the '08 season, Rice primarily made his mark out of the spread formation, running a lot of draws and off-tackle plays. This season, from what I've seen hasn't been that much different. Can he run inside pretty well? Yes. But it has a whole lot to do with the o-line moreso than his talents regarding this issue. Again, I'm not comparing him to Charles as an inside runner, but let's not get to thinking that this kid is MJD.......nor is he Emmitt Smith, the all-time leading rusher in the NFL. Rice has about 2 or 3 games of 20+ carries, he's making his living in space right now.

:no: Emmit Smith is EXACTLY what this kid is. Not very big, not very fast, not very strong, but enough of all of the above combined with great balance and exceptional vision combined with the patience to maximise every carry. All that combined is not MJD or ADP (an elite talent which I argue Smith was not), but IS E.Smith and if his line comes anywhere close to what Dallas' line was, he will have tremendous #s by the end of his career. If his line is above average for his career, he will have Westbrook numbers at the least. In fact, I think Westbrook is a closer comparison to Rice but I don't see the injury file of Rice being nearly as long as Westy. I was saying this about Ray before he was drafted, and had to sit quietly through last year but after what he has shown this year, I'm screaming it from the mountain tops.

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LOL You [no need to name names] are nuts over Slaton, but can't get behind Rice who has looked sensational this year.

BTW Rice is a better runner & receiver than Slaton.

Edited by Sudoku_in_the_Bathtub

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perhaps this question is answered somewhere else in the thread. if so, i apologize for asking it again.

but when looking at F&L's rankings, I'm curious: Just how do you determine the score you give to someone? is it 90 percent talent? 90 percent situation? 50/50?

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perhaps this question is answered somewhere else in the thread. if so, i apologize for asking it again.

but when looking at F&L's rankings, I'm curious: Just how do you determine the score you give to someone? is it 90 percent talent? 90 percent situation? 50/50?

There's no magic formula at all. It's much more art than science, though I do subscribe to the theory that talent has to trump situation when valuing players in a Dynasty format.

Here's a rudimentary FAQ on the value score from the blog.

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From what I recall from the '08 season, Rice primarily made his mark out of the spread formation, running a lot of draws and off-tackle plays. This season, from what I've seen hasn't been that much different. Can he run inside pretty well? Yes. But it has a whole lot to do with the o-line moreso than his talents regarding this issue. Again, I'm not comparing him to Charles as an inside runner, but let's not get to thinking that this kid is MJD.......nor is he Emmitt Smith, the all-time leading rusher in the NFL. Rice has about 2 or 3 games of 20+ carries, he's making his living in space right now.

:goodposting: Emmit Smith is EXACTLY what this kid is. Not very big, not very fast, not very strong, but enough of all of the above combined with great balance and exceptional vision combined with the patience to maximise every carry. All that combined is not MJD or ADP (an elite talent which I argue Smith was not), but IS E.Smith and if his line comes anywhere close to what Dallas' line was, he will have tremendous #s by the end of his career. If his line is above average for his career, he will have Westbrook numbers at the least. In fact, I think Westbrook is a closer comparison to Rice but I don't see the injury file of Rice being nearly as long as Westy. I was saying this about Ray before he was drafted, and had to sit quietly through last year but after what he has shown this year, I'm screaming it from the mountain tops.
Emmitt Smith who? Do you mean the Emmitt Smith who broke Walter Payton's career rushing record? That guy? Well, Ray Rice is NOT anything close to Emmitt Smith except in stature, position (RB), and skin color. Until he can rattle off at least 1 season of 300+ carries, then we may begin to say he can be a good NFL runner. Right now, Rice is a good player being used very well by his offensive coaches. As far as pounding him between the tackles like Emmitt Smith did consistently for over a decade, sorry, he has a marathon distance to go before any comparisons to all-time greats will be uttered by me. Just stop it already, please......

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LOL You [no need to name names] are nuts over Slaton, but can't get behind Rice who has looked sensational this year.BTW Rice is a better runner & receiver than Slaton.

Last time I checked, I have Rice ranked #8 and Slaton #17.......Somebody [no need to name names] should probably do a little homework...... :lmao: BTW Great blocking and a ton of targets surely does wonders for a player's worth, heh..... :goodposting:

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but Rice also has some deficiencies between the tackles.

Not really. Rice may be small in stature but he's built thick and runs with power and great balance. He's built like and runs a lot like Emmit Smith who was a fine inside runner. Charles is a lot more slender and doesn't have the frame to add a lot of weight. I do agree that he is talented and should be a good ppr player though.ETA: At Rutgers he was also a fine inside runner. In fact he was hardly ever used like he's being used in Baltimore (as a pass catcher out in space).
From what I recall from the '08 season, Rice primarily made his mark out of the spread formation, running a lot of draws and off-tackle plays. This season, from what I've seen hasn't been that much different. Can he run inside pretty well? Yes. But it has a whole lot to do with the o-line moreso than his talents regarding this issue. Again, I'm not comparing him to Charles as an inside runner, but let's not get to thinking that this kid is MJD.......nor is he Emmitt Smith, the all-time leading rusher in the NFL. Rice has about 2 or 3 games of 20+ carries, he's making his living in space right now.
Rice was hardly used at all in 2008. This season he's been the workhorse back since about week 4 and is handling every type of run - the Ravens do not play from a spread formation very often.I'm only comparing Rice to Smith in terms of build and running style - not saying he's destined for a Hall of Fame career. I watched Rice a lot in college and he is a more than capable inside runner and like I said he was hardly used as a receiver or as a guy they tried to get out in space at all. Rice has great vision, balance and enough power for his small stature to enable him to run inside effectively. I just think people make assumptions based on size somtimes that aren't warrnated.

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Who do you guys rate higher in dynasty? (.5 ppr)

Kevin Smith or Greg Jennings? Thanks

Edited by mstumpy50

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