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It's nice to hear that reassurance from you SSOG. I think Marshall's really talented as well, and if not for his acting up, he could be an unstoppable force. Although I don't necessarily agree with his shoving match with Moreno this past week on the Denver sideline, his post-game interview had him saying the following:

The turnover, which came just ahead of the two-minute warning, was reviewed and upheld. With that, Marshall -- the Broncos' volatile playmaker -- put his facemask directly into Moreno's facemask and let the rookie have it verbally.Moreno physically pushed back, and two of the Broncos' most explosive players nearly came to blows. Afterward, both of them called it a momentary exchange of heated emotion. But neither offered an apology."I don't regret anything. This is a playoff game," said Marshall, who approached this contest that would break a first-place tie between the two division rivals as such. "This is probably the most frustrating game I've ever played in. I approached it like it was a playoff game. I'm frustrated that we lost."I think everybody needs to look at themselves first. I'm going back and looking at film from last year, see if I've changed anything, and go from there."The Moreno fumble? "Those are plays that kill drives," Marshall said.And what did Marshall tell Moreno when the two were facemask-to-faceask?"That we need to pick it up.""There were guys on the sideline that weren't angry, who didn't have a lot of emotion. And they need to look at themselves in the mirror," Marshall said. "This is a game where you've got to have it. And none of us can make any terrible plays."

I gotta say, I like the fire he's showing. Maybe next year, if he lands somewhere else and has a change of scenery and/or a better situation, he could rise up the the elite level.At least, that's what I'm hoping.
My completely speculative take on the situation is that there's a better than 50% chance that Marshall re-ups with Denver and sticks around.

Not that it changes your analysis any, but Jermichael Finley is a sophomore, not a rookie.

Thanks, didn't realize that.

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I'm not twisting anything. My point is that the overwhelming majority of elite fantasy TEs looked like absolute dreck as rookies and put up absolutely terrible numbers. You're merely arguing about the DEGREE of terribleness which is acceptable from a rookie TE. Which is fine, but to me, terrible is terrible- I'm not going to disqualify Cook from consideration because his numbers are more terrible than his peers.When evaluating rookie TEs, I have two big strategies. The first is to give them all a pass, no matter what they do or how they look. I don't downgrade rookie TEs for any reason. The second strategy is to focus more on per-play metrics than aggregate metrics when deciding which rookie TEs to upgrade and which to keep where I had them before (because, as I said, I don't downgrade rookie TEs). Owen Daniels' aggregate numbers looked very meager after his rookie season (352 yards, 10 yards per reception), but I was sky-high on him because his per-play metrics were significantly better than what I'd expect from a rookie TE.

That's fine and makes plenty of sense. My metric has normally been 30/300 indicates a very high likelihood of future feasibility as a fantasy starter. Anything less and the outlook is hazy. The question then is how to distinguish a guy with potential from a guy who won't ever see the field. Per pay metric could be a useful tool, but as you said, the sample sizes are often small. I think we really need some way to evaluate a TEs development in the blocking game.

What does this have to do with Jared Cook? Absolutely nothing. He has 12 targets so far this year. I wouldn't draw any conclusions at all- one way or another- off of a sample of essentially a target a game. The one rookie TE who looks really good, though, is Jermichael Finley, who hasn't just been blowing away the rest of the rookie class, he's also been blowing away runningmate Donald Lee. Now is the time to buy on Finley if you don't already own him.

Finley is not a rookie. I actually mentioned him as a comparable to Cook, given they were both athletic 3rd round picks behind veterans.

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The one rookie TE who looks really good, though, is Jermichael Finley, who hasn't just been blowing away the rest of the rookie class, he's also been blowing away runningmate Donald Lee. Now is the time to buy on Finley if you don't already own him.

Finley is in his second year. He had 6/74/1 receiving as a rookie last season. You're right that he appears to be emerging, but it's also true that he has only exceeded 56 yards receiving in one game and he has only reached the end zone twice thus far in his short career. The most encouraging sign is that he has 4+ receptions in 4 of 6 games this year.

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The one rookie TE who looks really good, though, is Jermichael Finley, who hasn't just been blowing away the rest of the rookie class, he's also been blowing away runningmate Donald Lee. Now is the time to buy on Finley if you don't already own him.

Finley is in his second year. He had 6/74/1 receiving as a rookie last season. You're right that he appears to be emerging, but it's also true that he has only exceeded 56 yards receiving in one game and he has only reached the end zone twice thus far in his short career. The most encouraging sign is that he has 4+ receptions in 4 of 6 games this year.
The most encouraging sign to me is the 77% catch rate and the yards-per-target figure in excess of 10. :(

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I gotta say, I like the fire he's showing.

Fire? He's just a jerk.
I was thinking the same thing and I don't think Marshall has the credibility to get in other players faces. Team leaders can get away with that but not Brandon Marshall. Edited by Rodeojones

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So really, we aren't just talking about a 5-6 week rental when trading Ricky Williams for Shonn Green, you are realistically talking about a massive upgrade for the remaining 5-6 weeks this season plus a solid upgrade for a full season next year.

So many assumptions in this post. I think my head is going to explode. 1. We don't know what Shonn Greene will do next season. It would be a terrible mistake to assume that he won't be productive. Could he be stuck behind Thomas Jones? Sure. Are there any number of scenarios where he could leapfrog Jones and produces top 15 numbers? Sure. There are many potential outcomes here. Look at LeSean McCoy, Ray Rice, and Rashard Mendenhall. None of them were obvious starters six months ago. Guess what? Things move quickly in the NFL. Use your imagination. Thomas Jones is old. He could get hurt. He could lose a step. He could be cut or traded. Either way, we can't presume to know what Shonn Greene's role will be next season. There's a significant non-zero probability that he will be very productive (that's not to mention 2011 and beyond). 2. We don't know what Ricky will do next season. He'll be 33 years old. Do you know how many productive 33 year old RBs there are in the NFL right now? Hint: zero. He's older than dirt and there's a significant chance that he'll be splitting carries next season. I don't think we can assume that he'll be anything more than a bye week filler beyond this year. Could he be more than that? Sure. Could he be less? Sure. He could be Fred Taylor or Shaun Alexander in the blink of an eye.Bottom line in this whole conversation is that it's all about probabilities. I've done the math when it comes to draft picks. Third round RBs become productive starters about 30-35% of the time. There have been some great gems in that bunch (Ahman Green, Brian Westbrook, Frank Gore). Would you rather have a 30-35% chance at a guy who could produce RB1 numbers for 1-5 seasons or a 90% chance at a guy who could produce RB1 numbers for 5 weeks? To me the expected value of the generic third round RB prospect far exceeds the expected value of the 32 year old rental RB. It's not very close.
:bs: Great point by EBF. However, I do understand the mentality of trying to win it all and sacrificing a potential future starter for a short-term player to give you a chance at a strong stretch run. Again as many have stated, it's a case-by-case situation that should not be done routinely. And there'd be a prospect or two who I certainly wouldn't make this trade with, so it primarily goes back to how much you like Greene and/or the depth that you have. Probably chiming in a little late here but geeeeeeesh, I hope you guys are done with this issue..... :lmao:

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So really, we aren't just talking about a 5-6 week rental when trading Ricky Williams for Shonn Green, you are realistically talking about a massive upgrade for the remaining 5-6 weeks this season plus a solid upgrade for a full season next year.

So many assumptions in this post. I think my head is going to explode. 1. We don't know what Shonn Greene will do next season. It would be a terrible mistake to assume that he won't be productive. Could he be stuck behind Thomas Jones? Sure. Are there any number of scenarios where he could leapfrog Jones and produces top 15 numbers? Sure. There are many potential outcomes here. Look at LeSean McCoy, Ray Rice, and Rashard Mendenhall. None of them were obvious starters six months ago. Guess what? Things move quickly in the NFL. Use your imagination. Thomas Jones is old. He could get hurt. He could lose a step. He could be cut or traded. Either way, we can't presume to know what Shonn Greene's role will be next season. There's a significant non-zero probability that he will be very productive (that's not to mention 2011 and beyond). 2. We don't know what Ricky will do next season. He'll be 33 years old. Do you know how many productive 33 year old RBs there are in the NFL right now? Hint: zero. He's older than dirt and there's a significant chance that he'll be splitting carries next season. I don't think we can assume that he'll be anything more than a bye week filler beyond this year. Could he be more than that? Sure. Could he be less? Sure. He could be Fred Taylor or Shaun Alexander in the blink of an eye.Bottom line in this whole conversation is that it's all about probabilities. I've done the math when it comes to draft picks. Third round RBs become productive starters about 30-35% of the time. There have been some great gems in that bunch (Ahman Green, Brian Westbrook, Frank Gore). Would you rather have a 30-35% chance at a guy who could produce RB1 numbers for 1-5 seasons or a 90% chance at a guy who could produce RB1 numbers for 5 weeks? To me the expected value of the generic third round RB prospect far exceeds the expected value of the 32 year old rental RB. It's not very close.
:loco: Great point by EBF. However, I do understand the mentality of trying to win it all and sacrificing a potential future starter for a short-term player to give you a chance at a strong stretch run. Again as many have stated, it's a case-by-case situation that should not be done routinely. And there'd be a prospect or two who I certainly wouldn't make this trade with, so it primarily goes back to how much you like Greene and/or the depth that you have. Probably chiming in a little late here but geeeeeeesh, I hope you guys are done with this issue..... :lmao:
I am a Brown owner whose only viable starting RB is Rice right now--all my other guys are backups. We have to start two RBs so I tried to trade for Williams and offered Earl Bennett and a second round rookie pick. I felt that was fair. But the Williams owner wanted players like Roddy White or Brandon Marshall or a first round rookie pick. And for all the reasons that EBF gives above I didn't even consider any of those. I just don't think five weeks of productivity is worth that and beyond this year I think Ricky's role is very cloudy. He will play next year but whether Brown plays or not I would be very surprised if Miami doesn't use a first, second or third round pick on another back. There will be competition for Ricky. Plus, Brown could come back himself and split time next year much as they have done this year.So, I did the math and decided I will wait and hope that Jonathan Stewart or Donald Brown get more carries down the stretch. I can't see giving up more than a second round pick for Williams.

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I gotta say, I like the fire he's showing.

Fire? He's just a jerk.
I was thinking the same thing and I don't think Marshall has the credibility to get in other players faces. Team leaders can get away with that but not Brandon Marshall.
I disagree. If Marshall isn't a team leader who is? Is there anyone else on that offense who has been there longer and done more? If he doesn't, who does? Some of you complain about him no matter what he does. If he didn't show passion that would show he doesn't care about the team. The fact that he cares is a good thing and when a rookie fumbles at a key moment having a veteran hold him accountable is valuable.

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So really, we aren't just talking about a 5-6 week rental when trading Ricky Williams for Shonn Green, you are realistically talking about a massive upgrade for the remaining 5-6 weeks this season plus a solid upgrade for a full season next year.

So many assumptions in this post. I think my head is going to explode. 1. We don't know what Shonn Greene will do next season. It would be a terrible mistake to assume that he won't be productive. Could he be stuck behind Thomas Jones? Sure. Are there any number of scenarios where he could leapfrog Jones and produces top 15 numbers? Sure. There are many potential outcomes here. Look at LeSean McCoy, Ray Rice, and Rashard Mendenhall. None of them were obvious starters six months ago. Guess what? Things move quickly in the NFL. Use your imagination. Thomas Jones is old. He could get hurt. He could lose a step. He could be cut or traded. Either way, we can't presume to know what Shonn Greene's role will be next season. There's a significant non-zero probability that he will be very productive (that's not to mention 2011 and beyond). 2. We don't know what Ricky will do next season. He'll be 33 years old. Do you know how many productive 33 year old RBs there are in the NFL right now? Hint: zero. He's older than dirt and there's a significant chance that he'll be splitting carries next season. I don't think we can assume that he'll be anything more than a bye week filler beyond this year. Could he be more than that? Sure. Could he be less? Sure. He could be Fred Taylor or Shaun Alexander in the blink of an eye.Bottom line in this whole conversation is that it's all about probabilities. I've done the math when it comes to draft picks. Third round RBs become productive starters about 30-35% of the time. There have been some great gems in that bunch (Ahman Green, Brian Westbrook, Frank Gore). Would you rather have a 30-35% chance at a guy who could produce RB1 numbers for 1-5 seasons or a 90% chance at a guy who could produce RB1 numbers for 5 weeks? To me the expected value of the generic third round RB prospect far exceeds the expected value of the 32 year old rental RB. It's not very close.
:goodposting: Great point by EBF. However, I do understand the mentality of trying to win it all and sacrificing a potential future starter for a short-term player to give you a chance at a strong stretch run. Again as many have stated, it's a case-by-case situation that should not be done routinely. And there'd be a prospect or two who I certainly wouldn't make this trade with, so it primarily goes back to how much you like Greene and/or the depth that you have. Probably chiming in a little late here but geeeeeeesh, I hope you guys are done with this issue..... :wall:
I am a Brown owner whose only viable starting RB is Rice right now--all my other guys are backups. We have to start two RBs so I tried to trade for Williams and offered Earl Bennett and a second round rookie pick. I felt that was fair. But the Williams owner wanted players like Roddy White or Brandon Marshall or a first round rookie pick. And for all the reasons that EBF gives above I didn't even consider any of those. I just don't think five weeks of productivity is worth that and beyond this year I think Ricky's role is very cloudy. He will play next year but whether Brown plays or not I would be very surprised if Miami doesn't use a first, second or third round pick on another back. There will be competition for Ricky. Plus, Brown could come back himself and split time next year much as they have done this year.So, I did the math and decided I will wait and hope that Jonathan Stewart or Donald Brown get more carries down the stretch. I can't see giving up more than a second round pick for Williams.
This in and of itself is not near enough to really figure out the full scope of what may have led you to your decision. What place are you in in your league? Do you have a legitimate opportunity to win your league, or is your roster a step below some of the other teams? Do you have slumping players, or is the rest of your roster outside of the RB spot playing well? Knowing and analyzing information such as this is just as crucial as knowing the long term effects of making such a deal. If you are towards the top of your standings AND the rest of your roster is strong AND your roster compares favorably with the other top teams in your league, I will still contend trading a 1st round pick the equivalent of Shonn Greene or Donald Brown for Ricky Williams to upgrade from Donald Brown is an absolutely astute move that can make the difference between winning the title and falling short in this situation. Can it backfire? Absolutely, 100% it can. However, it increases your odds, and all you are EVER trying to do is maximize your opportunity to win and then let the chips fall where they may. The variables of things that can go wrong and wreck your nucleus increase dramatically over the next 2 years and you have NO idea where your overall roster will stand in 2011 (when you are realistically expecting either Greene or Brown to become factors), so to eschew a golden opportunity to put yourself at the forefront of a title chase would be a mistake (in my opinion). Ignoring the possibility of a greatly increased title opportunity for the sake of the future, when that future may have you in a full rebuilding mode and unable to compete when these players are "ready", just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Now all of that being said, if your roster is not overly strong top to bottom, or if your team is decidedly inferior to those teams above you, or if you are towards the bottom of your standings hoping to make a late desperate run...well then making such a trade would not make much sense and you shouldn't do it. It's all about specific situations. To say it NEVER makes sense to trade youth with potential 2 years down the road for aging talent that can produce at high levels now is flat out wrong, just as it is wrong to conversely say it is ALWAYS right to trade youth for aging talent that will produce now. The correct answer, as with most things pertaining to fantasy football, is that there is no correct answer and it is a very fluid thing. What might be right for 1 team and roster can just as easily be wrong for another.

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On the Ricky issue: many in here (SSOG in particular) are saying that all of the bargaining power lies with the buyer. This isn't really true. It would be true in a market that consisted of only two parties - 1 buyer and 1 seller. But that's not how fantasy football works. In my primary dynasty league, there are 3 teams vying for Ricky's services - 3 buyers and only 1 seller (I get that there are other options out there besides Ricky, and thus theoretically more than 1 seller, but each of these 3 owners is set on getting Ricky and only Ricky). All of a sudden what appears, in a vacuum, to be a buyer's market becomes a very strong seller's market. Each team now not only has to enter a bidding war with the other two teams, but now has the added incentive of keeping his competitors from acquiring Ricky's services, which acts to further jack up the price.

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I gotta say, I like the fire he's showing.

Fire? He's just a jerk.
I was thinking the same thing and I don't think Marshall has the credibility to get in other players faces. Team leaders can get away with that but not Brandon Marshall.
I disagree. If Marshall isn't a team leader who is? Is there anyone else on that offense who has been there longer and done more? If he doesn't, who does? Some of you complain about him no matter what he does. If he didn't show passion that would show he doesn't care about the team. The fact that he cares is a good thing and when a rookie fumbles at a key moment having a veteran hold him accountable is valuable.
Kyle Orton is a team leader. So are Dawkins and Bailey. Elvis Dumervil has been there just as long and done more. D.J. Williams has been there longer and done more. Ryan Clady is a better and more invaluable player on offense, if you want to talk about on-field contributions as the key to leadership potential. Daniel Graham is a long-time vet with a couple rings who is also an integral part of the offense.

Leadership requires credibility and accountability, and Brandon Marshall has neither. He is not a CREDIBLE leader after that bull-dooky stunt in preseason where he was jogging at every snap and batting down balls rather than trying to catch them, and then bragging to the media about how he hadn't even started learning the playbook. He is not an ACCOUNTABLE leader after repeatedly promising to stay on the good side of the law and repeatedly failing, as well as after "slipping on a McDonald's bag" (read: wrestling with his buddy) and putting his arm through a TV, seriously jeopardizing his potential to contribute to the team.

On the Ricky issue: many in here (SSOG in particular) are saying that all of the bargaining power lies with the buyer. This isn't really true. It would be true in a market that consisted of only two parties - 1 buyer and 1 seller. But that's not how fantasy football works. In my primary dynasty league, there are 3 teams vying for Ricky's services - 3 buyers and only 1 seller (I get that there are other options out there besides Ricky, and thus theoretically more than 1 seller, but each of these 3 owners is set on getting Ricky and only Ricky). All of a sudden what appears, in a vacuum, to be a buyer's market becomes a very strong seller's market. Each team now not only has to enter a bidding war with the other two teams, but now has the added incentive of keeping his competitors from acquiring Ricky's services, which acts to further jack up the price.

The bolded is key here. I was saying that it's a buyer's market for Ricky and you shouldn't get tunnel vision. The reason why you shouldn't get tunnel vision is because that makes it a SELLER'S market for Ricky. Those guys have themselves and their single-mindedness to blame for completely giving away the upper hand in trade negotiations.

I know a thing or two about the whole "make this move to deny my competitors" angle. I played that angle hard when shopping Donald Driver (I messaged three playoff owners and told them that I was messaging all three and would give Driver to whoever made the best offer, which would not only secure Driver's services, but deny his services to a key competitor). I buy that angle a lot more with a guy like Tiki Barber, who was a known commodity. At this point, Ricky is still a massive wildcard, albeit a very high-upside wildcard. If I were in the league where owners were bidding for Ricky, I'd do my best to drive up his cost and then let some other owner win the bidding, potentially crippling a key rival for years to come.

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Kyle Orton is a team leader. So are Dawkins and Bailey. Elvis Dumervil has been there just as long and done more. D.J. Williams has been there longer and done more. Ryan Clady is a better and more invaluable player on offense, if you want to talk about on-field contributions as the key to leadership potential. Daniel Graham is a long-time vet with a couple rings who is also an integral part of the offense.Leadership requires credibility and accountability, and Brandon Marshall has neither. He is not a CREDIBLE leader after that bull-dooky stunt in preseason where he was jogging at every snap and batting down balls rather than trying to catch them, and then bragging to the media about how he hadn't even started learning the playbook. He is not an ACCOUNTABLE leader after repeatedly promising to stay on the good side of the law and repeatedly failing, as well as after "slipping on a McDonald's bag" (read: wrestling with his buddy) and putting his arm through a TV, seriously jeopardizing his potential to contribute to the team.

Most of the guys you mentioned as team leaders are on the defense. And pretty much an unwritten rule is that each side of the ball handles their own internal affairs, so it would not be protocol nor prudent for any defensive player to try to get in an offensive player's face about a mistake, and vice-versa for an offensive player to a defensive player. Second, is Kyle Orton really considered a team leader? If so, then good luck. Lastly, I doubt several of those guys like Clady or Graham have the personality or are outspoken enough to take that type of stance as Marshall did. I actually commend him in some respects for putting Moreno on notice that he has to finish those types of plays in such a big game, and in the heat of the moment those types of things happen. I also recall that after Moreno's biggest run of the day, Marshall was the first one to give Moreno a "chest-bump" of approval for the big play, so I can see that he is truly supportive and a team player who has passion for the game. He just may need to check his emotions a bit which just may be a part of him that makes him excel. Love him or hate him, Marshall brings it on the field every Sunday, and it'd be very hard to prove that any of those other guys outside of Champ has done 'more' than Marshall for this team towards winning games.....

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Most of the guys you mentioned as team leaders are on the defense. And pretty much an unwritten rule is that each side of the ball handles their own internal affairs, so it would not be protocol nor prudent for any defensive player to try to get in an offensive player's face about a mistake, and vice-versa for an offensive player to a defensive player. Second, is Kyle Orton really considered a team leader? If so, then good luck. Lastly, I doubt several of those guys like Clady or Graham have the personality or are outspoken enough to take that type of stance as Marshall did. I actually commend him in some respects for putting Moreno on notice that he has to finish those types of plays in such a big game, and in the heat of the moment those types of things happen. I also recall that after Moreno's biggest run of the day, Marshall was the first one to give Moreno a "chest-bump" of approval for the big play, so I can see that he is truly supportive and a team player who has passion for the game. He just may need to check his emotions a bit which just may be a part of him that makes him excel. Love him or hate him, Marshall brings it on the field every Sunday, and it'd be very hard to prove that any of those other guys outside of Champ has done 'more' than Marshall for this team towards winning games.....

Yes, Kyle Orton is a team leader. First off, the QB is naturally a team leader, especially the best QB on the team. Second, he's genuinely well-liked by pretty much everybody he's ever played with. The Bears players loved him and talked a lot of smack about the trade when they learned he was leaving.Also, just because an offensive player doesn't get in someone else's face every time they screw up (without any accountability when he screws up himself) doesn't make him a poor leader. I guarantee you that young Broncos listen when Graham talks. Ditto that for a guy like Casey Weigmann or Ben Hamilton. But even if Graham was a deaf-mute and Clady didn't speak English and Orton was a mongoloid with no social interaction skills... doesn't change the fact that Marshall is not a "leader". He's a guy who pouts and sulks when he doesn't get his way, behaves extremely unprofessionally, doesn't put the team first, deflects all blame for his own shortcomings, and has no personal accountability. Calling Marshall "fiery" or a "leader" is a joke. He's a prima donna who got pissed because a rookie fumbled (which wasn't even his own fault, by the way, and wasn't even a fumble for that matter- the ball crossed the goal line, first), so he decided to lose his cool at said rookie. If that makes him a "leader", then Terrell Owens is the best leader I have ever seen in my entire life. Just look at how well he lost his cool at Donovan McNabb, Jeff Garcia, Tony Romo, Jason Witten, his coaches, his fellow receivers, etc. Owens is such a great leader that three different franchises have, when faced with the option of retaining his leadership, decided to instead let the league get a taste of the sportsman that is Terrell Owens.

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I gotta say, I like the fire he's showing.

Fire? He's just a jerk.
He may be a jerk, but I'd rather have someone who cares about winning and shows some spirit rather than someone like lackadaisical (sp) Roy Williams. Someone on here said that the reason why Calvin isn't as high up as Fitz and AJ is because they show the fire and Calvin Johnson hasn't, thus far.

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Most of the guys you mentioned as team leaders are on the defense. And pretty much an unwritten rule is that each side of the ball handles their own internal affairs, so it would not be protocol nor prudent for any defensive player to try to get in an offensive player's face about a mistake, and vice-versa for an offensive player to a defensive player. Second, is Kyle Orton really considered a team leader? If so, then good luck. Lastly, I doubt several of those guys like Clady or Graham have the personality or are outspoken enough to take that type of stance as Marshall did. I actually commend him in some respects for putting Moreno on notice that he has to finish those types of plays in such a big game, and in the heat of the moment those types of things happen. I also recall that after Moreno's biggest run of the day, Marshall was the first one to give Moreno a "chest-bump" of approval for the big play, so I can see that he is truly supportive and a team player who has passion for the game. He just may need to check his emotions a bit which just may be a part of him that makes him excel. Love him or hate him, Marshall brings it on the field every Sunday, and it'd be very hard to prove that any of those other guys outside of Champ has done 'more' than Marshall for this team towards winning games.....

Yes, Kyle Orton is a team leader. First off, the QB is naturally a team leader, especially the best QB on the team. Second, he's genuinely well-liked by pretty much everybody he's ever played with. The Bears players loved him and talked a lot of smack about the trade when they learned he was leaving.Also, just because an offensive player doesn't get in someone else's face every time they screw up (without any accountability when he screws up himself) doesn't make him a poor leader. I guarantee you that young Broncos listen when Graham talks. Ditto that for a guy like Casey Weigmann or Ben Hamilton. But even if Graham was a deaf-mute and Clady didn't speak English and Orton was a mongoloid with no social interaction skills... doesn't change the fact that Marshall is not a "leader". He's a guy who pouts and sulks when he doesn't get his way, behaves extremely unprofessionally, doesn't put the team first, deflects all blame for his own shortcomings, and has no personal accountability. Calling Marshall "fiery" or a "leader" is a joke. He's a prima donna who got pissed because a rookie fumbled (which wasn't even his own fault, by the way, and wasn't even a fumble for that matter- the ball crossed the goal line, first), so he decided to lose his cool at said rookie. If that makes him a "leader", then Terrell Owens is the best leader I have ever seen in my entire life. Just look at how well he lost his cool at Donovan McNabb, Jeff Garcia, Tony Romo, Jason Witten, his coaches, his fellow receivers, etc. Owens is such a great leader that three different franchises have, when faced with the option of retaining his leadership, decided to instead let the league get a taste of the sportsman that is Terrell Owens.
Good points---I wouldn't say that he's necessarily a good leader either. He's obviously still immature, as seen by his actions earlier this year. That being said, he is outspoken, has tremendous talent and recent success (the prior two years), has been with the team for awhile, and is cocky. I'm sure to some extent that his words carry _some_ weight. My original point was not to bring out the fact that he's a leader per se, but to illustrate the point that he cares about winning, and holds people accountable (Moreno fumbled the ball at the goalline, no question about that, just the timing of whether it was before or after he broke the plane). That is a positive trait in sports. Maybe he went about it the wrong way by getting in Moreno's face, but isn't that better than him watching the cheerleaders on the sideline, not really caring about the score, just about his paycheck? I'd say that it's a plus. I guarantee you that if Jordan was triple covered in the corner, passed the ball to Luc Longley, who was free under the basket but missed the layup in a pivotal point in an important game, MJ would chew his ### out. That, or ignore him for 2 months. MJ and Marshall are galaxies away, but the determination to win is a positive trait in sports. That's all I'm saying, and I'm glad that Marshall, for all his other faults, is showing that trait.Hopefully this dynasty discussion won't get sidetracked to talk about leadership qualities anymore, I don't want to take away from an amazing thread. No more comments from me about Marshall's comments/actions, until he does something else good/stupid. Edited by ckl81

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Is Fisher going to run CJ into the ground like he did with Eddie George?

Interesting thought. CJ has carried the ball a ton lately.. but he avoids contact better than anyone I've ever seen. I'm not sure it's worth docking his risk profile at this point.

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I gotta say, I like the fire he's showing.

Fire? He's just a jerk.
He may be a jerk, but I'd rather have someone who cares about winning and shows some spirit rather than someone like lackadaisical (sp) Roy Williams. Someone on here said that the reason why Calvin isn't as high up as Fitz and AJ is because they show the fire and Calvin Johnson hasn't, thus far.
That's insane.

And you're over-rating outward displays of emotion tremendously. Fitz has one of the most laid-back onfield demeanors you'll ever see. Marvin Harrison did too.

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Is Fisher going to run CJ into the ground like he did with Eddie George?

Vastly different styles. George was sort of the poster-boy for upright, between-the-tackle runners. That led to his physical decay more than anything. CJ is much more elusive and skilled at avoiding contact. His biggest worry should be any injury that saps his speed or cutting ability, and that could happen with 10 carries as much as 240.

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Is Fisher going to run CJ into the ground like he did with Eddie George?

Vastly different styles. George was sort of the poster-boy for upright, between-the-tackle runners. That led to his physical decay more than anything. CJ is much more elusive and skilled at avoiding contact. His biggest worry should be any injury that saps his speed or cutting ability, and that could happen with 10 carries as much as 240.
I think it was George's workload that led to him wearing down, not his style. George had 8 straight seasons of 300 + carries (403 attempts in 2000), and never missed a start with the Titans - 1996 to 2003. You would think the "upright" running style would have been an issue long before 2003. I don't think any RB can withstand that many carries without wearing down. I think Fisher is pushing CJ down the same path.

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We covered some of these guys a while back but their performances over the last few weeks may have changed their value somewhat.

Can any homers give some details that we may not be getting from the mainstream media?

Ryan - ATL

Flacco - BAL

Cutler - CHI

Stafford- DET

Freeman - TB

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Is Fisher going to run CJ into the ground like he did with Eddie George?

Interesting thought. CJ has carried the ball a ton lately.. but he avoids contact better than anyone I've ever seen. I'm not sure it's worth docking his risk profile at this point.
I'm not arguing that CJ isn't good at avoiding contact, but I've actually seen him get popped quite a few times. It's bound to happen when you're touching the ball 25+ times a game. I don't think his present value is affected much by the workload, but I wouldn't be surprised to see CJ flame out faster than other RB's his age.

Sorry CJ owners, not trying to scare you.

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I did end up trading

However It was not Green for R. Williams

I traded Green for J. Charles

Jamal is young and has a great schedule. I would love to win the Title Now!!

Maybe Jamal is KC's future. I'm not sure. I do know Jamal is much younger than Ricky. I hope this works for me.

Thanks again for the Great Thread. Love the Read!

Will Jamal stay the #1 RB at KC ?

Surely they other positions more pressing to draft.

Edited by new-guru

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In the whole "Shonn Greene for Ricky Williams" conversation, I have a few questions.

How do we know Ricky will continue to hold the load he's been given? He didn't get 20+ carries before Ronnie was hurt so how do we know he will continue to get them and be able to physically take the load?

How do we know the Dolphins won't, when they acknowldge they cannot get into the playoffs this season, work another RB in to see what he gives them?

Know Ricky doesn't get hurt? Mega carries isn't the best option for most RBs, never mind someone over 30.

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I gotta say, I like the fire he's showing.

Fire? He's just a jerk.
He may be a jerk, but I'd rather have someone who cares about winning and shows some spirit rather than someone like lackadaisical (sp) Roy Williams. Someone on here said that the reason why Calvin isn't as high up as Fitz and AJ is because they show the fire and Calvin Johnson hasn't, thus far.
That's insane.

And you're over-rating outward displays of emotion tremendously. Fitz has one of the most laid-back onfield demeanors you'll ever see. Marvin Harrison did too.

SSOG commentary on WRs awhile back, which I happen to agree with to a large extent:

#1- Alright, so it's not really THAT far out on a limb, and it definitely doesn't fly in the face of current production... but this is another thing I said before the season started that I feel even better about now. Andre Johnson is a better dynasty WR than Calvin Johnson. If you were to go into a lab and design a perfect WR, it would be Calvin... but I have yet to see that "I will not be denied" sheer force of will from Calvin yet. Randy Moss flashed it early in his career, in his rookie year against Dallas. Terrell Owens had his 20 reception day in Jerry Rice's final home game for the Niners. Larry Fitzgerald showed it all postseason long last year. It's not necessarily a knock on Calvin Johnson, who I think is an absolute stud. I mean, I never got that "I will not be denied" vibe from Marvin Harrison, and he was a fantasy god (although he also had Peyton Manning throwing to him). At the end of the day, though, it's just a tool that Andre and Fitz have that Calvin doesn't. I often joke that defenses never stop Tim Tebow- he decides before every play how many yards he wants, then he runs until he has that many. I see the exact same thing from Andre and Fitzgerald sometimes- they just decide what the result of a play is going to be before the play even happens. As a fantasy owner, I absolutely love that, because you never know when one of those guys is just going to decide that it's time for them to take over the game.

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Is Fisher going to run CJ into the ground like he did with Eddie George?

Interesting thought. CJ has carried the ball a ton lately.. but he avoids contact better than anyone I've ever seen. I'm not sure it's worth docking his risk profile at this point.
I'm not arguing that CJ isn't good at avoiding contact, but I've actually seen him get popped quite a few times. It's bound to happen when you're touching the ball 25+ times a game. I don't think his present value is affected much by the workload, but I wouldn't be surprised to see CJ flame out faster than other RB's his age.

Sorry CJ owners, not trying to scare you.

I also have a question about CJ: we all can agree that some of his production is directly related to his unbelievable speed. He's an incredibly talented runner as well, with great lateral agility and patience too, from what I've seen, but my question is this: how long does it last? I'm hoping it lasts a long time, because I think he's a phenomenal player and is really fun to watch. But my theory is that because his greatest strength is his speed, which I feel probably deteriorates a little more quickly than other skills, does he have a shorter window? 90% speed CJ is still damn fast, but when he gets to that point, will he still be as effective a runner? What's his comparable if you take away some of his top-line speed and acceleration?

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In the whole "Shonn Greene for Ricky Williams" conversation, I have a few questions.

How do we know Ricky will continue to hold the load he's been given? He didn't get 20+ carries before Ronnie was hurt so how do we know he will continue to get them and be able to physically take the load? First off Ricky is already in the top 25 in rushing attempts this season - it's not like he was only getting 5 carries a game. Second he has had 4 games already with 16 or more carries and averaging like 13 touches a game, so it's not like he hasn't seen a decent amount of work already. He was a very good RB2 most of the season already - even a slight bump in workload would easily make him an RB1 in most leagues.

How do we know the Dolphins won't, when they acknowldge they cannot get into the playoffs this season, work another RB in to see what he gives them?

When will this happen? The Dolphins should win their 3rd in a row this weekend against the Bills, moving to 6-5. Then after they play the Pats in Miami, they play @JAX (a team they'll be battling with for a Wildcard) @ Tenn, then host Houston (another team they may be fighting for a Wildcard with). In terms of the AFC playoff picture, the Dolphins seem to be one of the few teams actually moving in the right direction - Houston has lost 2 in a row, Denver has dropped 4 straight, the Steelers have dropped their last 2 as well. If Miami falls out of the NFL playoff picture, Ricky may have already gotten his FF owners to the promised land by that point in the season.

Know Ricky doesn't get hurt? Mega carries isn't the best option for most RBs, never mind someone over 30. I have never seen any statistical information that suggest that injuries are more likely for an RB over 30. A loss in production? Sure. Injuries are impossible to predict, regardless of age. Michael Turner is 27 - he's out. It was an injury to a much younger Ronnie Brown that has Ricky in this spot to begin with. No one is suggesting he get Ced Benson type carries (30+) - but even if he goes from 12-14 carries a game to 18-20 - that bump is enough to make him a solid RB1 the rest of the way.

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The one rookie TE who looks really good, though, is Jermichael Finley, who hasn't just been blowing away the rest of the rookie class, he's also been blowing away runningmate Donald Lee. Now is the time to buy on Finley if you don't already own him.

Finley is in his second year. He had 6/74/1 receiving as a rookie last season. You're right that he appears to be emerging, but it's also true that he has only exceeded 56 yards receiving in one game and he has only reached the end zone twice thus far in his short career. The most encouraging sign is that he has 4+ receptions in 4 of 6 games this year.
The most encouraging sign to me is the 77% catch rate and the yards-per-target figure in excess of 10. :thumbup:
Agree with that. Also the guy is really young, only 22.

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What's up with Marshawn Lynch? I've been hesitant to push him too far down the list because of his pedigree and SSOG's hardcore :wub: for him (as well as EBF's last season).

But Fred Jackson continues to outproduce him, and Lynch is sitting at 3.1 YPC this season. The coaches tried to hand him the starting job over F-Jax a month ago, but now F-Jax is splitting evenly again. I'm thoroughly underwhelmed here.

Edited by Fear & Loathing

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What's up with Marshawn Lynch? I've been hesitant to push him too far down the list because of his pedigree and SSOG's hardcore :wub: for him (as well as EBF's last season).But Fred Jackson continues to outproduce him, and Lynch is sitting at 3.1 YPC this season. The coaches tried to hand him the starting job over F-Jax a month ago, but now F-Jax is splitting evenly again. I'm thoroughly underwhelmed here.

I've never understood the love for this guy. Whenever I've watched him, my eyeball test results always scream "Joseph Addai V2.0," and that's not flattering. Lynch seems to be a decent back who runs with more power than Addai, but similar to Addai his overall game appears extremely pedestrian to me as he doesn't seem to have any semblence of a 2nd gear. If it hasn't already, I think his dynasty value will soon fall in line with his actual prodution on the field. He's been a "never buy" for me and if I had him I'd be desperately trying to package him for an upgrade.

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I don't think I ever said Lynch was going to be a superstar. I expected him to be a solid starter in the NFL and his performance prior to this year certainly justified that expectation. He rushed for 1000+ yards in consecutive seasons averaging 4.0 and 4.1 YPC on a poor offense.

What's going wrong this season? I don't know. Lynch is a good back, but he's not a great back. He's not going to rip off a lot of long runs. It doesn't help that he's only carried the ball more than 10 times in 2 games this season. He hasn't had much of a chance to get going and Buffalo's anemic offense and inept coaching haven't helped him.

I still like him as a RB2 in dynasty leagues. I would compare him to someone like Thomas Jones or Willis McGahee. These backs aren't all-world talents, but they're good enough to start for several teams in the NFL and they're capable of producing strong stats if the situation aligns properly. Lynch is only 23. I think he has some good football left in the tank. If people are downgrading him too severely based on this season then he might be a good buy low candidate.

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No, but he's possibly the best fourth-best RB in the past 10-20 years.

He may be a jerk, but I'd rather have someone who cares about winning and shows some spirit rather than someone like lackadaisical (sp) Roy Williams. Someone on here said that the reason why Calvin isn't as high up as Fitz and AJ is because they show the fire and Calvin Johnson hasn't, thus far.

I was the person who made the post you're thinking about, but I wasn't saying what you thought I was saying. I don't have Fitz or AJ over Calvin because they're fiery, I have them over Calvin because those two guys have that killer instinct, that refusal to be covered or stopped no matter what the other team does, that I affectionately refer to as "Beast Mode". There are games where Fitz just looks like he's daring the other team to quintuple cover him, because he'll catch the ball anyway. There are plays where Andre Johnson looks like he's decided before the play how many yards he's going to get, and any defenders in his way aren't even enough of an inconvenience to be considered minor nuisances. Some weeks, those guys just hit Beast Mode and make it clear to everyone watching that the defense can do everything perfectly and it won't make a bit of difference.

I've never seen Calvin hit Beast Mode. I've seen him make 30-year-old men look like 12-year-old boys because of his unbelievable physical advantages, but I've never seen that single-minded determination, that absolute refusal to be stopped, that I've seen from Fitz and Andre. Which is why I have him at dynasty WR3 when his measurables and production and age all say he should be the slam-dunk dynasty WR1.

What's up with Marshawn Lynch? I've been hesitant to push him too far down the list because of his pedigree and SSOG's hardcore :confused: for him (as well as EBF's last season).

But Fred Jackson continues to outproduce him, and Lynch is sitting at 3.1 YPC this season. The coaches tried to hand him the starting job over F-Jax a month ago, but now F-Jax is splitting evenly again. I'm thoroughly underwhelmed here.

I never had a hardcore :wub: for Lynch, I was just shocked at how much everyone else hated him. In my league, he had back-to-back RB12 finishes despite missing time, and he was only 23 years old... but nobody would even look at him. Everyone was calling him junk. I was shocked at just how down everyone was on Lynch.

In my mind, he's Kevin Smith. Not a special talent, but a quality talent who is young, plays for a terrible offense, and is likely to get some very nice workloads going forward. Nothing's changed. I still have the two RBs ranked essentially back-to-back. My point this offseason was that everyone was all over Kevin Smith as a possible future stud, but seemingly nobody liked Marshawn Lynch... which made no sense, since they're the same guy.

Edit: Here's what I had to say about Marshawn this past offseason-

"6) Marshawn. I'm coming around to him. He's younger than Adrian Peterson, younger than MJD, younger than Chris Johnson, younger than Matt Forte, younger than Steve Slaton... hell, he's even younger than Shonn Greene. He's also averaged 100 yards per game for his career. I don't think he's a special talent, but I could see him getting a lot better in a hurry if Buffalo ever put an offensive line in front of him- maybe consistently hitting the 4.5 yard per carry range. I'm still not sold on Fred Jackson as someone who brings Marshawn's value down (apparently you don't, either, since you have Jackson at #52). I believe I already posted in this thread that, historically, Jackson is a lot like LenDale in that he gets his after Lynch gets his first. I'm convinced that, at the very least, Marshawn has the talent of a starting RB in the NFL, and at 23 years old, I'd have Marshawn higher just because he's going to have a long time to figure things out."

Edited by SSOG

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No, but he's possibly the best fourth-best RB in the past 10-20 years.

He may be a jerk, but I'd rather have someone who cares about winning and shows some spirit rather than someone like lackadaisical (sp) Roy Williams. Someone on here said that the reason why Calvin isn't as high up as Fitz and AJ is because they show the fire and Calvin Johnson hasn't, thus far.

I was the person who made the post you're thinking about, but I wasn't saying what you thought I was saying. I don't have Fitz or AJ over Calvin because they're fiery, I have them over Calvin because those two guys have that killer instinct, that refusal to be covered or stopped no matter what the other team does, that I affectionately refer to as "Beast Mode". There are games where Fitz just looks like he's daring the other team to quintuple cover him, because he'll catch the ball anyway. There are plays where Andre Johnson looks like he's decided before the play how many yards he's going to get, and any defenders in his way aren't even enough of an inconvenience to be considered minor nuisances. Some weeks, those guys just hit Beast Mode and make it clear to everyone watching that the defense can do everything perfectly and it won't make a bit of difference.

I've never seen Calvin hit Beast Mode. I've seen him make 30-year-old men look like 12-year-old boys because of his unbelievable physical advantages, but I've never seen that single-minded determination, that absolute refusal to be stopped, that I've seen from Fitz and Andre. Which is why I have him at dynasty WR3 when his measurables and production and age all say he should be the slam-dunk dynasty WR1.

What's up with Marshawn Lynch? I've been hesitant to push him too far down the list because of his pedigree and SSOG's hardcore :wub: for him (as well as EBF's last season).

But Fred Jackson continues to outproduce him, and Lynch is sitting at 3.1 YPC this season. The coaches tried to hand him the starting job over F-Jax a month ago, but now F-Jax is splitting evenly again. I'm thoroughly underwhelmed here.

I never had a hardcore :wub: for Lynch, I was just shocked at how much everyone else hated him. In my league, he had back-to-back RB12 finishes despite missing time, and he was only 23 years old... but nobody would even look at him. Everyone was calling him junk. I was shocked at just how down everyone was on Lynch.

In my mind, he's Kevin Smith. Not a special talent, but a quality talent who is young, plays for a terrible offense, and is likely to get some very nice workloads going forward. Nothing's changed. I still have the two RBs ranked essentially back-to-back. My point this offseason was that everyone was all over Kevin Smith as a possible future stud, but seemingly nobody liked Marshawn Lynch... which made no sense, since they're the same guy.

Edit: Here's what I had to say about Marshawn this past offseason-

"6) Marshawn. I'm coming around to him. He's younger than Adrian Peterson, younger than MJD, younger than Chris Johnson, younger than Matt Forte, younger than Steve Slaton... hell, he's even younger than Shonn Greene. He's also averaged 100 yards per game for his career. I don't think he's a special talent, but I could see him getting a lot better in a hurry if Buffalo ever put an offensive line in front of him- maybe consistently hitting the 4.5 yard per carry range. I'm still not sold on Fred Jackson as someone who brings Marshawn's value down (apparently you don't, either, since you have Jackson at #52). I believe I already posted in this thread that, historically, Jackson is a lot like LenDale in that he gets his after Lynch gets his first. I'm convinced that, at the very least, Marshawn has the talent of a starting RB in the NFL, and at 23 years old, I'd have Marshawn higher just because he's going to have a long time to figure things out."

Don't you find that Lynch likes to dance around behind the line of scrimmage all too often instead of just hitting the hole? Buffalo's offensive line is weak, but look at what Fred Jackson was able to achieve early in the year..

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Don't you find that Lynch likes to dance around behind the line of scrimmage all too often instead of just hitting the hole? Buffalo's offensive line is weak, but look at what Fred Jackson was able to achieve early in the year..

It's a pretty common trait among 23 year old RBs behind brutal offensive lines. Not a big long-term concern for me. If he continued to dance under a coaching staff that stressed not dancing to the point where the coaching staff was scaling back his workload (in other words, if he was Quentin Griffin), then I'd be more concerned.Besides, as good as Jackson looked early in the season, the entire offense has regressed a ton since then, including Jackson. Since week 3, Marshawn Lynch is averaging 3.1 ypc... and Fred Jackson is averaging 3.5. And the coaching staff isn't making any rumblings about putting Jackson back in charge, either, which is also pretty telling.

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Don't you find that Lynch likes to dance around behind the line of scrimmage all too often instead of just hitting the hole? Buffalo's offensive line is weak, but look at what Fred Jackson was able to achieve early in the year..

It's a pretty common trait among 23 year old RBs behind brutal offensive lines. Not a big long-term concern for me. If he continued to dance under a coaching staff that stressed not dancing to the point where the coaching staff was scaling back his workload (in other words, if he was Quentin Griffin), then I'd be more concerned.Besides, as good as Jackson looked early in the season, the entire offense has regressed a ton since then, including Jackson. Since week 3, Marshawn Lynch is averaging 3.1 ypc... and Fred Jackson is averaging 3.5. And the coaching staff isn't making any rumblings about putting Jackson back in charge, either, which is also pretty telling.
If you had a #6 ranking just this past offseason for Lynch, why is that not considered hardcore :moneybag: ?

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Don't you find that Lynch likes to dance around behind the line of scrimmage all too often instead of just hitting the hole? Buffalo's offensive line is weak, but look at what Fred Jackson was able to achieve early in the year..

It's a pretty common trait among 23 year old RBs behind brutal offensive lines. Not a big long-term concern for me. If he continued to dance under a coaching staff that stressed not dancing to the point where the coaching staff was scaling back his workload (in other words, if he was Quentin Griffin), then I'd be more concerned.

Besides, as good as Jackson looked early in the season, the entire offense has regressed a ton since then, including Jackson. Since week 3, Marshawn Lynch is averaging 3.1 ypc... and Fred Jackson is averaging 3.5. And the coaching staff isn't making any rumblings about putting Jackson back in charge, either, which is also pretty telling.

If you had a #6 ranking just this past offseason for Lynch, why is that not considered hardcore :wub: ?
I completely agree. IF I had a #6 ranking just this past offseason for Lynch, then that would most certainly qualify as hardcore :wub:. Of course, in the land of reality, I didn't have Lynch at a #6 ranking. I didn't have him at a #7, #8, or #9 ranking, either. I didn't have him in the top 10. I didn't have him in the top 12. I didn't have him at #13, and I didn't have him at #14. I had him at #15, behind MJD, ADP, SJax, DeAngelo, CJ3, Gore, Ronnie, Forte, Turner, McFadden, Moreno, Brandon Jacobs, Jonathan Stewart, and Steve Slaton (in that order). Kevin Smith, Beanie Wells, Ray Rice, Reggie Bush, and Ryan Grant rounded out my top 20.

A #15 ranking, imo, doesn't qualify as hardcore :wub: for a 23-year-old RB with two straight top 15 finishes to begin his career. :own3d:

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What kind of long term expectations do the experts in here have of LeSean McCoy? And how does he stack up compared to fellow rookie Donald Brown, fantasy-wise? Thanks a lot.

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Don't you find that Lynch likes to dance around behind the line of scrimmage all too often instead of just hitting the hole? Buffalo's offensive line is weak, but look at what Fred Jackson was able to achieve early in the year..

It's a pretty common trait among 23 year old RBs behind brutal offensive lines. Not a big long-term concern for me. If he continued to dance under a coaching staff that stressed not dancing to the point where the coaching staff was scaling back his workload (in other words, if he was Quentin Griffin), then I'd be more concerned.

Besides, as good as Jackson looked early in the season, the entire offense has regressed a ton since then, including Jackson. Since week 3, Marshawn Lynch is averaging 3.1 ypc... and Fred Jackson is averaging 3.5. And the coaching staff isn't making any rumblings about putting Jackson back in charge, either, which is also pretty telling.

If you had a #6 ranking just this past offseason for Lynch, why is that not considered hardcore :coffee: ?
I completely agree. IF I had a #6 ranking just this past offseason for Lynch, then that would most certainly qualify as hardcore :wall:. Of course, in the land of reality, I didn't have Lynch at a #6 ranking. I didn't have him at a #7, #8, or #9 ranking, either. I didn't have him in the top 10. I didn't have him in the top 12. I didn't have him at #13, and I didn't have him at #14. I had him at #15, behind MJD, ADP, SJax, DeAngelo, CJ3, Gore, Ronnie, Forte, Turner, McFadden, Moreno, Brandon Jacobs, Jonathan Stewart, and Steve Slaton (in that order). Kevin Smith, Beanie Wells, Ray Rice, Reggie Bush, and Ryan Grant rounded out my top 20.

A #15 ranking, imo, doesn't qualify as hardcore :wub: for a 23-year-old RB with two straight top 15 finishes to begin his career. :thumbup:

How do you feel about Moreno and where do you have him ranked? I think he's definitely stepped up his play the last couple weeks here after a slow start and definitely showed something.. I'm not sure if this is a result of better o-line play or the fact that he's starting to get more accustomed to the Denver system after having missed some of preseason and the beginning of the season due to a knee injury. Possibly a result of finally being 100% also?

Also going off a previous discussion about Lynch, do you factor in his knucklehead antics in there? I.e. hit and run one offseason, unregistered guns in an suv with some gansta buddies in Cali offseason #2.. ?

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What kind of long term expectations do the experts in here have of LeSean McCoy? And how does he stack up compared to fellow rookie Donald Brown, fantasy-wise? Thanks a lot.

I'm optimistic about McCoy. He has stepped into Westbrook's role and performed pretty well. I'm not sure he'll ever be the scorer Westbrook was in his prime, but he certainly seems capable of taking over that starting job. The offense is a great fit for his skill set and he has been quite productive this season in games where he has had 10+ carries. At this point in PPR leagues I would probably take him over any other rookie RB. The only issue is Westbrook's presence. He could vulture touches and suppress McCoy's production if he lingers in Philadelphia for another year or two. Donald Brown is still a bit of an enigma to me. I didn't like him that much coming out of college and felt he might be relegated to a change of pace role ala Felix Jones. Then again, Joseph Addai is garbage. It's conceivable that Brown could eventually force him out entirely. The problem is that Brown hasn't played much. We really don't know who he is. I would rather have McCoy because I don't think Brown is obviously more talented and McCoy is already playing well at the NFL level.

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How do you feel about Moreno and where do you have him ranked? I think he's definitely stepped up his play the last couple weeks here after a slow start and definitely showed something.. I'm not sure if this is a result of better o-line play or the fact that he's starting to get more accustomed to the Denver system after having missed some of preseason and the beginning of the season due to a knee injury. Possibly a result of finally being 100% also?Also going off a previous discussion about Lynch, do you factor in his knucklehead antics in there? I.e. hit and run one offseason, unregistered guns in an suv with some gansta buddies in Cali offseason #2.. ?

F&L and I have had this conversation before. F&L thinks Moreno is a phenomenal talent. I think he's just another one of the average RBs (Marshawn, Kevin Smith, Matt Forte, etc), but he gets a healthy boost because he's in the best situation of the average talents. I still have him around 10th, just behind the ascendant talents, because if I'm going to gamble on an RB who I don't think is a sublime talent, I'd rather gamble on a guy with #12 overall pedigree and arguably the best O-line in the league.As for Lynch... my incredibly scientific and thoroughly researched opinion is that I don't really get big "knucklehead vibes" from him. And yes, that "incredibly scientific and thoroughly researched" part was a joke. I don't know, I just never really considered him that much of a knucklehead. Probably because of how committed his team is to him- they don't seem to approach him with the same sort of hesitation with which teams handle guys like Marshall or Owens.

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How do you feel about Moreno and where do you have him ranked? I think he's definitely stepped up his play the last couple weeks here after a slow start and definitely showed something.. I'm not sure if this is a result of better o-line play or the fact that he's starting to get more accustomed to the Denver system after having missed some of preseason and the beginning of the season due to a knee injury. Possibly a result of finally being 100% also?

Also going off a previous discussion about Lynch, do you factor in his knucklehead antics in there? I.e. hit and run one offseason, unregistered guns in an suv with some gansta buddies in Cali offseason #2.. ?

F&L and I have had this conversation before. F&L thinks Moreno is a phenomenal talent. I think he's just another one of the average RBs (Marshawn, Kevin Smith, Matt Forte, etc), but he gets a healthy boost because he's in the best situation of the average talents. I still have him around 10th, just behind the ascendant talents, because if I'm going to gamble on an RB who I don't think is a sublime talent, I'd rather gamble on a guy with #12 overall pedigree and arguably the best O-line in the league.

As for Lynch... my incredibly scientific and thoroughly researched opinion is that I don't really get big "knucklehead vibes" from him. And yes, that "incredibly scientific and thoroughly researched" part was a joke. I don't know, I just never really considered him that much of a knucklehead. Probably because of how committed his team is to him- they don't seem to approach him with the same sort of hesitation with which teams handle guys like Marshall or Owens.

That's slightly hyperbolic. I think the total package is Top-10 material in Dynasty leagues, but I'm not blown away by his talent as much by his skills, intangibles, and lack of a weakness. He has a high football IQ, is already one of the best leaders on the team, almost always falls forward for extra yardage, is a better receiver than he's shown, and already a great blocker. He's just a very impressive all-around football player and good bet to maintain RB1/2 value over the next 5-6 seasons. While he may not have the upside of more explosive runners, he's an extremely safe Dynasty asset.

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How do you feel about Moreno and where do you have him ranked? I think he's definitely stepped up his play the last couple weeks here after a slow start and definitely showed something.. I'm not sure if this is a result of better o-line play or the fact that he's starting to get more accustomed to the Denver system after having missed some of preseason and the beginning of the season due to a knee injury. Possibly a result of finally being 100% also?

Also going off a previous discussion about Lynch, do you factor in his knucklehead antics in there? I.e. hit and run one offseason, unregistered guns in an suv with some gansta buddies in Cali offseason #2.. ?

F&L and I have had this conversation before. F&L thinks Moreno is a phenomenal talent. I think he's just another one of the average RBs (Marshawn, Kevin Smith, Matt Forte, etc), but he gets a healthy boost because he's in the best situation of the average talents. I still have him around 10th, just behind the ascendant talents, because if I'm going to gamble on an RB who I don't think is a sublime talent, I'd rather gamble on a guy with #12 overall pedigree and arguably the best O-line in the league.

As for Lynch... my incredibly scientific and thoroughly researched opinion is that I don't really get big "knucklehead vibes" from him. And yes, that "incredibly scientific and thoroughly researched" part was a joke. I don't know, I just never really considered him that much of a knucklehead. Probably because of how committed his team is to him- they don't seem to approach him with the same sort of hesitation with which teams handle guys like Marshall or Owens.

That's slightly hyperbolic. I think the total package is Top-10 material in Dynasty leagues, but I'm not blown away by his talent as much by his skills, intangibles, and lack of a weakness. He has a high football IQ, is already one of the best leaders on the team, almost always falls forward for extra yardage, is a better receiver than he's shown, and already a great blocker. He's just a very impressive all-around football player and good bet to maintain RB1/2 value over the next 5-6 seasons. While he may not have the upside of more explosive runners, he's an extremely safe Dynasty asset.
Those skills have really been on display the last couple of weeks, as well. Looks like Moreno's taking a step forward. If not for penalties, he could have been 21-122 tonight, and had plenty of burst on his runs.

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I'll backup the pro-Moreno stances I've read here from what I've seen in games.

He's got that "slippery" aspect, like F&L said he always seems to be tackled falling forward for another yard or two, not shoved backwards. He has also shown a great ability to bounce an off-tackle run outside (nothing special, but he routinely makes the correct read). Also, he has displayed a PLUS (and I repeat, a PLUS) spin move on at least 2 instances. One was in game 2 or 3...and one was tonight vs. the Giants. He hit the circle button in the backfield to avoid the upfield pressure, and turned in a very nice gain out of what would be a loss to most other backs. NASTY spin move. Once he gets comfortable and allows his natural ability to just flow, I see a very bright future for this kid.

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I mentioned this a page back and had no responses - but any thoughts on Brohm as a possible future startign QB?

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I mentioned this a page back and had no responses - but any thoughts on Brohm as a possible future startign QB?

We talked about it a few pages back, and there's a also a more in-depth Brohm thread on the front page right now.

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