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Fear & Loathing

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whoa F&L. Love the new website. I hadn't checked on your ranking in a while and was pleasantly surprised :thumbsup:

Can someone PM me the link? I noticed the links were removed from F&L's sig and not sure if there is a reason for that but I'd like to see his new site.

TIA

Is it this one?

http://dynastyrankings.blogspot.com/

It's on the thread's first post - if that's the one you were referring to.

Rankings on that page are dated June 2010, and the link to roto rankings on that page are end of preseason. The post I responded to above mentioned a 'new website', so I assumed there is a new site. :mellow:
Ah yes. He did post a link to his Rotoworld rankings:

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/features/...articleid=36145

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Interested in Fear and Loathing's thoughts on Tampa's Mike Williams. He has Mike Williams at #31 with Chad Ochocinco at #27. Having watched Williams over the past few weeks, I wouldn't trade him for Ochocinco in a millions years. Williams seems to be underrated at this point.

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Anyone feel comforable putting Miles Austin over Calvin Johnson? I love that Austin is a threat if the Cowboys decide to dink and dunk, and he is a threat if the Cowboys bomb it down the field. Johnson seems to rely on the Redzone more than Austin, when it comes to putting up points. Austin can take a 5 yard in and break it, while Johnson relies on the ball traveling in the air to score. Thoughts?I don't own either in my dynasty leagues. I would be targeting Austin, however, because of this. I would think his owners would be more likely to part with him than Calvin's owners. There seems to be the idea that Calvin is putting up Moss/Rice/Owens numbers as soon as his situation is closer to ideal.

I agree Austin is more valuable now and in the near future. But I don't think we know what Calvin Johnson is yet. His RZ targets are bailing out owners this year, but his upside includes elite yardage as well. We might not know til next year (when Stafford comes back this year, how close to 100% will he be, especially on deep balls).They have used him some on dink and dunk with Shaun Hill. YAC has a lot to do with the QB (hitting the WR in stride) and his YAC is way down. Calvin's YPC and YAC (as well as YPG) are all lower this year than it was last year. And last year was pretty disappointing. He is bailing out owners cause he's such a great RZ threat and is actually getting targets there now.Considering I've bought Calvin twice in the past 2 months, I don't know if "owners will be more likely to part" with Austin than him. I know owners (myself included) are more willing to overpay for Calvin because they see Moss-like transcendence even if it might not actually be there. I haven't seen anyone overpay for Austin like I have for Calvin and Fitz.

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Interested in Fear and Loathing's thoughts on Tampa's Mike Williams. He has Mike Williams at #31 with Chad Ochocinco at #27. Having watched Williams over the past few weeks, I wouldn't trade him for Ochocinco in a millions years. Williams seems to be underrated at this point.

Those rankings are obviously old (preseason) and Williams has passed a lot of the guys in that tier.

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Whether you believe in Tate or not is irrelevant. The Texans believe(d) in Tate. I was just commenting on the fact that Tate will get a chance to make an impact, and if he makes even enough impact to become Mike Bell on the 2009 Saints, then its just another reason why the Pierre Thomas comparison could be a negative. Somebody's got to trot out that Kubiak only rolls a workhorse runner, but Martz never used his TE either... until he did.

It's not irrelevant. When I rank players, I either have the choice to rank them based on what I think of them, or to rank them based on what their team thinks of them. I go the former route, which is why Jamaal Charles is in my top 10. I think Ben Tate is bad and will not steal carries from Arian Foster. I rank accordingly.

There is a big difference between discussing player values and what HenryMuto is doing.

Agreed. I didn't mind so much the first time he solicited VJax/Colston comparisons, even though I'm sick of talking about VJax, mostly because I could use it as an opportunity to talk a little bit about Colston. The big problem was when Muto came back a second time and asked the exact same question because he wanted more feedback on it. ACF posts are poor form, but can sometimes result in decent discussion. Continually coming back with repeated ACF questions (or even worse, the same question multiple times because you want even more feedback) is just annoying, though.
Well excuse me for asking about 2 players where they ranked going forward in 2011 and beyond and then telling you what I finally decided to do.

I guess I had the wrong idea, I thought this is where the best dynasty players on the site came to discuss players. My mistake.

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If I were ranking, I'd probably be bumping Nicks up to about #6. Compare him to DeSean, Dez, Jennings, etc. and what do you come up with? I would trade DeSean for him straight up. I would trade Dez for him straight up. I would trade Jennings for him straight up. Great red zone skills, great deep ball skills, great possession skills, stable QB situation. Football Scientist predicts he will be the best WR in the NFL soon largely due to his route running. Are other people believing as hard?

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No. He's a good WR, but there are 10-15 guys with similar talent. He's not going to sustain this kind of TD production and his reception totals will probably regress a bit.

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If I were ranking, I'd probably be bumping Nicks up to about #6. Compare him to DeSean, Dez, Jennings, etc. and what do you come up with? I would trade DeSean for him straight up. I would trade Dez for him straight up. I would trade Jennings for him straight up. Great red zone skills, great deep ball skills, great possession skills, stable QB situation. Football Scientist predicts he will be the best WR in the NFL soon largely due to his route running. Are other people believing as hard?

Yes, I'd consider him in the top 7. He's an absolute beast. However, it's not just his route running and versatility--it's his after-the-catch ability, too. Aside from his inexplicable going out at the 1 yesterday, he's physical, quick, and savvy. Edited by lyon812

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Whether you believe in Tate or not is irrelevant. The Texans believe(d) in Tate. I was just commenting on the fact that Tate will get a chance to make an impact, and if he makes even enough impact to become Mike Bell on the 2009 Saints, then its just another reason why the Pierre Thomas comparison could be a negative. Somebody's got to trot out that Kubiak only rolls a workhorse runner, but Martz never used his TE either... until he did.

It's not irrelevant. When I rank players, I either have the choice to rank them based on what I think of them, or to rank them based on what their team thinks of them. I go the former route, which is why Jamaal Charles is in my top 10. I think Ben Tate is bad and will not steal carries from Arian Foster. I rank accordingly.

There is a big difference between discussing player values and what HenryMuto is doing.

Agreed. I didn't mind so much the first time he solicited VJax/Colston comparisons, even though I'm sick of talking about VJax, mostly because I could use it as an opportunity to talk a little bit about Colston. The big problem was when Muto came back a second time and asked the exact same question because he wanted more feedback on it. ACF posts are poor form, but can sometimes result in decent discussion. Continually coming back with repeated ACF questions (or even worse, the same question multiple times because you want even more feedback) is just annoying, though.
Well excuse me for asking about 2 players where they ranked going forward in 2011 and beyond and then telling you what I finally decided to do.

I guess I had the wrong idea, I thought this is where the best dynasty players on the site came to discuss players. My mistake.

Henry I see you really know how to make friends on message boards.

Wish I knew you were wanting to deal VJAX, I'd have made a move for him involving Welker. I'm starting to think he's coming back this year and even if he does not he'll be huge when he plays for a team that throws it to him more than the 100-110 times the Chargers did.

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No. He's a good WR, but there are 10-15 guys with similar talent. He's not going to sustain this kind of TD production and his reception totals will probably regress a bit.

His talent is more all around like White. If his route running is near perfect like the Football Scientist article suggests, you have to reconsider whether guys like Jennings, Colston, or whoever else is in that "10-15" are really similar.His reception totals are trending upward very heavily. He's averaging 9 per game the last 3 games after only 6 the first 2 weeks. I don't see any reason why he can't have 90 receptions, and average around that going forward. I agree he won't have 18 TDs this year, but I don't see any reason why he can't have 9 or 10 each year for the next 10 years. That puts him with very limited company.

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If I were ranking, I'd probably be bumping Nicks up to about #6. Compare him to DeSean, Dez, Jennings, etc. and what do you come up with? I would trade DeSean for him straight up. I would trade Dez for him straight up. I would trade Jennings for him straight up. Great red zone skills, great deep ball skills, great possession skills, stable QB situation. Football Scientist predicts he will be the best WR in the NFL soon largely due to his route running. Are other people believing as hard?

No to insult you, by any means, but this article sucks. Don't tell me why he is better than Wes Welker, old 85, old TO, and the Steve Smiths. Tell me what makes him better than Fitz and AJ...you know, the best wide receivers in the NFL. And if you are going to bash TO and Ocho for not playing well against top corners (which for TO is BS), show me where Nicks has. Also, Brandon Marshall runs shorter routes, sure. But don't act as though that is all he can do. Marshall has proven he can carry the burden of being a #1 WR for seasons, and has been one of the best.

To sum it up, "He can run a lot of routes (almost 200!) and other receivers have weaknesses!" is far from scientific.

Seeing as how we are talking dynasty, I would say 8 or 9, as opposed to 10-15. I have guys like White, Marshall, Miles, Fitz, Johnson, Johnson, Jackson over him.

Edited by Concept Coop

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Whether you believe in Tate or not is irrelevant. The Texans believe(d) in Tate. I was just commenting on the fact that Tate will get a chance to make an impact, and if he makes even enough impact to become Mike Bell on the 2009 Saints, then its just another reason why the Pierre Thomas comparison could be a negative. Somebody's got to trot out that Kubiak only rolls a workhorse runner, but Martz never used his TE either... until he did.

It's not irrelevant. When I rank players, I either have the choice to rank them based on what I think of them, or to rank them based on what their team thinks of them. I go the former route, which is why Jamaal Charles is in my top 10. I think Ben Tate is bad and will not steal carries from Arian Foster. I rank accordingly.
I wasn't talking about your ranking though. I was talking about Foster's long-term viability, and what some of the obstacles to that might be. Unless you've been hired by the Texans recently ( always a possibility with your aptitude, admittedly ), your opinion of Ben Tate has little to do with whether he sees playing time.As far as a choice between ranking based on your thoughts vs. the team's thoughts, shouldn't you be using both? Obviously its not a 50-50 split, but its all just another component of the talent vs. situation argument. The NFL team's opinion is certainly a contributor to "situation". And even if its only 1%, I doubt anyone's going to say that situation should be wholly ignored.

Whether you believe in Tate or not is irrelevant.

my (or any owner's) opinion on a player is never irrelevant, it's what makes this game worthwhile.
In this case, it is irrelevant. Just like saying my opinion that Thomas Jones shouldn't be playing isn't relevant when discussing Jamal Charles's production. Comparably, saying that Ben Tate will not impact Foster in any way is just silly, regardless of your ( or any owner's ) opinion on Tate's talent level. Now I'm no fan of Tate... at all. I don't think he poses a serious threat to Foster's role as the primary ball carrier. However, the Texans spent a second round pick on the guy. He **will** be given a chance to contribute, even if only at a small level. And since I'm also not as huge a fan of Foster's overall talent ( again... Pierre Thomas ), losing 5 or so carries to Ben Tate per game could take him from high-end RB1 to middle-tier RB2.

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If I were ranking, I'd probably be bumping Nicks up to about #6. Compare him to DeSean, Dez, Jennings, etc. and what do you come up with? I would trade DeSean for him straight up. I would trade Dez for him straight up. I would trade Jennings for him straight up. Great red zone skills, great deep ball skills, great possession skills, stable QB situation. Football Scientist predicts he will be the best WR in the NFL soon largely due to his route running. Are other people believing as hard?

No to insult you, by any means, but this article sucks. Don't tell me why he is better than Wes Welker, old 85, old TO, and the Steve Smiths. Tell me what makes him better than Fitz and AJ...you know, the best wide receivers in the NFL. And if you are going to bash TO and Ocho for not playing well against top corners (which for TO is BS), show me where Nicks has. Also, Brandon Marshall runs shorter routes, sure. But don't act as though that is all he can do. Marshall has proven he can carry the burden of being a #1 WR for seasons, and has been one of the best.

To sum it up, "He can run a lot of routes (almost 200!) and other receivers have weaknesses!" is far from scientific.

Seeing as how we are talking dynasty, I would say 8 or 9, as opposed to 10-15. I have guys like White, Marshall, Miles, Fitz, Johnson, Johnson, Jackson over him.

I realize that link is a vague summary but the guy publishes in-depth stats and info about players every year. He's not spitballing; he's summarizing or teasing what he found. You're free to discount or ignore him. He says Miles Austin is the current best WR if that makes you trust him more.

You listed 7 names. I'd argue Marshall (knucklehead, Henne) and VJax (short term value, don't know what team) would be below him.

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Anyone feel comforable putting Miles Austin over Calvin Johnson? I love that Austin is a threat if the Cowboys decide to dink and dunk, and he is a threat if the Cowboys bomb it down the field. Johnson seems to rely on the Redzone more than Austin, when it comes to putting up points. Austin can take a 5 yard in and break it, while Johnson relies on the ball traveling in the air to score. Thoughts?I don't own either in my dynasty leagues. I would be targeting Austin, however, because of this. I would think his owners would be more likely to part with him than Calvin's owners. There seems to be the idea that Calvin is putting up Moss/Rice/Owens numbers as soon as his situation is closer to ideal.

This is a good question, and one i was thnking about today while updating my rankings. I have had Calvin and Austin as my #2 and 3 WR's since the start of the season(behnd AJ) although i had Austin quite a few points behind CJ. Right now i have them ranked just a point or two apart, and i would be thrilled to be plugging either into my #1 WR spot each week.(Fotunately for me i get to put them both in my starting lineup each week in one of my leagues...along with AJ) :confused:

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If you meant DeSean then lack of PPR upside, dependence on the deep ball, and lack of success with Kolb this year. But it's close, I agree.

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If I were ranking, I'd probably be bumping Nicks up to about #6. Compare him to DeSean, Dez, Jennings, etc. and what do you come up with? I would trade DeSean for him straight up. I would trade Dez for him straight up. I would trade Jennings for him straight up. Great red zone skills, great deep ball skills, great possession skills, stable QB situation. Football Scientist predicts he will be the best WR in the NFL soon largely due to his route running. Are other people believing as hard?

Ive got him at #10, just ahead of Dez, but still behind Jennings and Desean. Its highly unlikely he moves ahead of Desean, but if Jennings doesnt start to get more consistent targets/receptions, it wont be long before he moves ahead of him.

I agree with you about his skillset, he is a very good route runner who can run the short routes, and get open deep. Has solid hands, good speed and a very good QB situation with Eli Manning. Im not sure he has the elite skills to make it into the top 5, but he is still young, so its certainly possible.

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If I were ranking, I'd probably be bumping Nicks up to about #6. Compare him to DeSean, Dez, Jennings, etc. and what do you come up with? I would trade DeSean for him straight up. I would trade Dez for him straight up. I would trade Jennings for him straight up. Great red zone skills, great deep ball skills, great possession skills, stable QB situation. Football Scientist predicts he will be the best WR in the NFL soon largely due to his route running. Are other people believing as hard?

Ive got him at #10, just ahead of Dez, but still behind Jennings and Desean. Its highly unlikely he moves ahead of Desean, but if Jennings doesnt start to get more consistent targets/receptions, it wont be long before he moves ahead of him.

I agree with you about his skillset, he is a very good route runner who can run the short routes, and get open deep. Has solid hands, good speed and a very good QB situation with Eli Manning. Im not sure he has the elite skills to make it into the top 5, but he is still young, so its certainly possible.

Jennings is a huge bust this year and last. He shouldn't be in the top 20 IMO.

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If I were ranking, I'd probably be bumping Nicks up to about #6. Compare him to DeSean, Dez, Jennings, etc. and what do you come up with? I would trade DeSean for him straight up. I would trade Dez for him straight up. I would trade Jennings for him straight up. Great red zone skills, great deep ball skills, great possession skills, stable QB situation. Football Scientist predicts he will be the best WR in the NFL soon largely due to his route running. Are other people believing as hard?

Ive got him at #10, just ahead of Dez, but still behind Jennings and Desean. Its highly unlikely he moves ahead of Desean, but if Jennings doesnt start to get more consistent targets/receptions, it wont be long before he moves ahead of him.

I agree with you about his skillset, he is a very good route runner who can run the short routes, and get open deep. Has solid hands, good speed and a very good QB situation with Eli Manning. Im not sure he has the elite skills to make it into the top 5, but he is still young, so its certainly possible.

Jennings is a huge bust this year and last. He shouldn't be in the top 20 IMO.

He has finished 12, 4, 20 over the last 3 seasons. I know he is off to a bad start so far, but these are dynasty rankings. I think the problem with Jennings so far this season is lack of a running game. Defenses are not at all concerned with the PAckers running game, leaving both safeties over the top. Considering JKennings is the deep threat, this is going to affect him more than the other GB WR's. The Packers stated after this week that they will find different ways to get the ball in Jennings hands. I expect them to start throwing short to Jennings more often, maybe more of those quick slants that he seemed to do so well with a couple years back.

Either way, Jennings is a talented WR, and Driver doesnt have much time left in the NFL. Eventually the Packers will get a run game going again, and of course Rodgers should be around for a while. While i might move Jennings out of my top 10 if he doesnt start getting more targets soon, no way he should not be in anyones top 20.

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Going to respond to some posts in a bit, but wanted to post first and let you all know that my rankings are updated, and the change log is available here. As always, I'm looking forward to hearing what you guys have to say about the recent update.

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Looks like I was wrong about Harvin. I was in panic mode when all the headaches hit him. Thanks to this link I took him in the 7th round of my new dynasty start up draft.

A very great value in PPR league.

Thanks to all involved helping me make that pick.

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Going to respond to some posts in a bit, but wanted to post first and let you all know that my rankings are updated, and the change log is available here. As always, I'm looking forward to hearing what you guys have to say about the recent update.

I respect you holding strong on Fitz due to his talent, but his situation is terrible, and doesnt look like it will be getting better any time soon. Considering the other guys in the top 5 are all in the same talent tier, dont you think situation should move guys like AJ, CJ, and/or Austin ahead of him? I would bet just about anything that Austin scores more fanatsy points than Fitz over the next year and a half, plus he is younger.

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Maybe Rivers is "more efficient" and "on fire" because he is spreading the ball around more and not trying to force it to one guy--namely, VJax.

What what what what what? VJax was 34th in targets last season, behind guys like Brent Celek, Greg Olsen, and Davone Bess, and one target ahead of Marques Colston (the #1 WR in the offense most famous for spreading it around and NOT forcing it to one guy). And now the problem with San Diego's offense last year was that they threw it to VJax *TOO MUCH*?! I repeat: what?!

Personally, I think it's a combination of factors. For one, Rivers has raised his game to a new level. For another, so has Antonio Gates. For a third (and this is a factor being underrated by everyone so far), Rivers has played KC (25th in yards allowed, 13th in NYPA against), Jax (29th and 32nd, respectively), Seattle (31st and 23rd), Arizona (26th and 21st), and Oakland (10th and 26th). Four of his five opponents rank 25th or worse in passing yards allowed. Four of his five opponents rank 21st or worse in NYPA allowed. His schedule of opposing passing defenses so far has been miserable. Now, that's not the only reason Rivers is playing out of his mind, but anyone who thinks that hasn't been a factor has his head in the sand.

Anyone feel comforable putting Miles Austin over Calvin Johnson? I love that Austin is a threat if the Cowboys decide to dink and dunk, and he is a threat if the Cowboys bomb it down the field. Johnson seems to rely on the Redzone more than Austin, when it comes to putting up points. Austin can take a 5 yard in and break it, while Johnson relies on the ball traveling in the air to score. Thoughts?

I don't own either in my dynasty leagues. I would be targeting Austin, however, because of this. I would think his owners would be more likely to part with him than Calvin's owners. There seems to be the idea that Calvin is putting up Moss/Rice/Owens numbers as soon as his situation is closer to ideal.

Coincidentally enough, I just bumped Austin over Calvin and into Tier 1 prior to reading this thread. I've been saying for weeks that the only thing keeping him out of tier 1 was track record. That excuse had worn a little thin at this point.

If I were ranking, I'd probably be bumping Nicks up to about #6. Compare him to DeSean, Dez, Jennings, etc. and what do you come up with? I would trade DeSean for him straight up. I would trade Dez for him straight up. I would trade Jennings for him straight up. Great red zone skills, great deep ball skills, great possession skills, stable QB situation. Football Scientist predicts he will be the best WR in the NFL soon largely due to his route running. Are other people believing as hard?

I've got Nicks at 11. Over Jennings was an easy call, because I've never been a big Jennings fan. I'd still prefer Dez or DeSean long-term. I just think they're better talents, although Nicks is slowly winning me over. I've also got Crabtree over him, which probably won't be a popular ranking, but I'm still a believer in Crabtree long-term. I could see someone having him as high as 6th, although I'm not willing to buy in that hard yet.

I wasn't talking about your ranking though. I was talking about Foster's long-term viability, and what some of the obstacles to that might be. Unless you've been hired by the Texans recently ( always a possibility with your aptitude, admittedly ), your opinion of Ben Tate has little to do with whether he sees playing time.

As far as a choice between ranking based on your thoughts vs. the team's thoughts, shouldn't you be using both? Obviously its not a 50-50 split, but its all just another component of the talent vs. situation argument. The NFL team's opinion is certainly a contributor to "situation". And even if its only 1%, I doubt anyone's going to say that situation should be wholly ignored.

....

In this case, it is irrelevant. Just like saying my opinion that Thomas Jones shouldn't be playing isn't relevant when discussing Jamal Charles's production. Comparably, saying that Ben Tate will not impact Foster in any way is just silly, regardless of your ( or any owner's ) opinion on Tate's talent level.

Now I'm no fan of Tate... at all. I don't think he poses a serious threat to Foster's role as the primary ball carrier. However, the Texans spent a second round pick on the guy. He **will** be given a chance to contribute, even if only at a small level. And since I'm also not as huge a fan of Foster's overall talent ( again... Pierre Thomas ), losing 5 or so carries to Ben Tate per game could take him from high-end RB1 to middle-tier RB2.

I'm all for divining a team's thoughts, and I 100% agree that Tate will get a shot. I just have 0 confidence in his ability to make anything of it. I mean, Ryan Torain is getting a shot right now, but I still think he's terrible so I've still got him buried in my rankings, and if I thought Portis was the long-term solution in Wash, I wouldn't let the presence of Torain impact his ranking.

I do think that Tate might well carve out a role in Houston, but I never thought that Foster would get every snap, every carry, and every reception in the Houston backfield. There's plenty of room for someone else to carve out a role without impacting Foster's ranking. Jonathan Stewart has carved out a HUGE role in Carolina, but that didn't keep DeAngelo out of the top 10 (age and the threat of the lockout were what it took to eventually knock DeAngelo out of the top 10).

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Yeah, those rankings need some help. If we drafted today and the first receiver to go was Fitz, we would all laugh and deservedly so.

I wouldnt laugh, assuming it was a dynasty startup. I value talent alot more than situation when it comes to my dynasty rankings. However, i just dont think Fitz is that much more talented, if at all, than the handful of other WR's in the top tier. Considering some of those guys situation is so much better though, you cant ignore it.

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Going to respond to some posts in a bit, but wanted to post first and let you all know that my rankings are updated, and the change log is available here. As always, I'm looking forward to hearing what you guys have to say about the recent update.

I respect you holding strong on Fitz due to his talent, but his situation is terrible, and doesnt look like it will be getting better any time soon. Considering the other guys in the top 5 are all in the same talent tier, dont you think situation should move guys like AJ, CJ, and/or Austin ahead of him? I would bet just about anything that Austin scores more fanatsy points than Fitz over the next year and a half, plus he is younger.

The opposite is true of your rankings. Putting Fitz at #6 is just as questionable.

I have no problem with Fitz as a WR1 for the rest of the year, esp in PPR. I am more comfortable with Fitz this year than Calvin, unless Stafford comes back a lot stronger than I expect him to.

Edited by thriftyrocker

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I respect you holding strong on Fitz due to his talent, but his situation is terrible, and doesnt look like it will be getting better any time soon. Considering the other guys in the top 5 are all in the same talent tier, dont you think situation should move guys like AJ, CJ, and/or Austin ahead of him? I would bet just about anything that Austin scores more fanatsy points than Fitz over the next year and a half, plus he is younger.

What do you mean it doesn't look like it'll get better soon? It looks like it already got better. Max Hall had major tunnel vision for Fitz. He just had 7/93 receiving, accounting for more than half of Hall's passing yardage.As I always say when someone questions the Fitzgerald ranking... I think he's a first-ballot HoFer in his prime. Things look bleak right now. Things looked bleak for Randy Moss when he went to Oakland. Nobody could see that situation getting any better. Then, all of a sudden, Moss was going for 1500 yards and 23 scores headlining the best offense in NFL history. Everything changes so fast in the NFL. Two years from now, maybe Dez Bryant has surpassed Austin and Miles Austin is the new Anquan Boldin. Who knows. The only thing that doesn't change is talent, and Larry Fitzgerald has more of it than any other receiver in the entire NFL.Also, as I always say, future production is no less valuable than current production, so even if Fitzgerald struggles for another year or two, it doesn't outweigh the 5+ years of huge production he'll have after that. This is totally consistent with all of my core ranking philosophies- the philosophies that cause me to put guys like VJax, Dez, Crabtree, and Jonathan Stewart in my top 10 despite weaker short-term value than the guys around them.

Yeah, those rankings need some help. If we drafted today and the first receiver to go was Fitz, we would all laugh and deservedly so.

You could feel free to laugh. I laughed at the guy who drafted Randy Moss high in our startup in 2007. Ultimately, he who laughs last laughs loudest.

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At the risk of opening this can of worms again, it is worth looking at the production in SD without VJax. As you guys know, I've probably been higher on Floyd than most - and while he was relatively quiet in weeks 1 & 3, he was near 100 yards in week 2 and 3 and obviously had an explosion this past week.It remains to be seen what VJax does after SD, but it may be worth considering that SD is becoming one of those offenses that is almost plug-and-play... and much of the value is tied to being in that offense. Of course, after pimping Floyd so much, I'm the ####### who traded him away last week in my primary league :football:

Rivers is just on fire this year. It's hard to compare last year to this year. Rivers is throwing more (more than 3 more attempts per game) and being even more efficient (more than a yard more per attempt, which is insane). This has nothing to do with VJax, and everything to do with Rivers.If VJax was still there, he would be killing it just as hard, and actually be earning himself a top 3 WR paycheck. If Floyd got hurt, would you bump up Naanee, Buster, or Crayton? I wouldn't much at all. Obviously they have a different skillset than Floyd and VJax; that might be part of it. There's few 6'5" WRs who can stretch the field, SD just happened to have two of them.
Maybe Rivers is "more efficient" and "on fire" because he is spreading the ball around more and not trying to force it to one guy--namely, VJax.
Maybe you aren't familiar with Jackson's targets in recent seasons. He had 208 targets in 31 games over the past two seasons. I wouldn't call that "forcing it."

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Personally, I think it's a combination of factors. For one, Rivers has raised his game to a new level. For another, so has Antonio Gates. For a third (and this is a factor being underrated by everyone so far), Rivers has played KC (25th in yards allowed, 13th in NYPA against), Jax (29th and 32nd, respectively), Seattle (31st and 23rd), Arizona (26th and 21st), and Oakland (10th and 26th). Four of his five opponents rank 25th or worse in passing yards allowed. Four of his five opponents rank 21st or worse in NYPA allowed. His schedule of opposing passing defenses so far has been miserable. Now, that's not the only reason Rivers is playing out of his mind, but anyone who thinks that hasn't been a factor has his head in the sand.

I think the schedule has been a factor, but at this early stage in the season, those rankings might look better for those teams if you factored out Rivers' performance against them.

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Personally, I think it's a combination of factors. For one, Rivers has raised his game to a new level. For another, so has Antonio Gates. For a third (and this is a factor being underrated by everyone so far), Rivers has played KC (25th in yards allowed, 13th in NYPA against), Jax (29th and 32nd, respectively), Seattle (31st and 23rd), Arizona (26th and 21st), and Oakland (10th and 26th). Four of his five opponents rank 25th or worse in passing yards allowed. Four of his five opponents rank 21st or worse in NYPA allowed. His schedule of opposing passing defenses so far has been miserable. Now, that's not the only reason Rivers is playing out of his mind, but anyone who thinks that hasn't been a factor has his head in the sand.

I think the schedule has been a factor, but at this early stage in the season, those rankings might look better for those teams if you factored out Rivers' performance against them.
Agreed. Rivers helped create those low rankings.

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I respect you holding strong on Fitz due to his talent, but his situation is terrible, and doesnt look like it will be getting better any time soon. Considering the other guys in the top 5 are all in the same talent tier, dont you think situation should move guys like AJ, CJ, and/or Austin ahead of him? I would bet just about anything that Austin scores more fanatsy points than Fitz over the next year and a half, plus he is younger.

What do you mean it doesn't look like it'll get better soon? It looks like it already got better. Max Hall had major tunnel vision for Fitz. He just had 7/93 receiving, accounting for more than half of Hall's passing yardage.As I always say when someone questions the Fitzgerald ranking... I think he's a first-ballot HoFer in his prime. Things look bleak right now. Things looked bleak for Randy Moss when he went to Oakland. Nobody could see that situation getting any better. Then, all of a sudden, Moss was going for 1500 yards and 23 scores headlining the best offense in NFL history. Everything changes so fast in the NFL. Two years from now, maybe Dez Bryant has surpassed Austin and Miles Austin is the new Anquan Boldin. Who knows. The only thing that doesn't change is talent, and Larry Fitzgerald has more of it than any other receiver in the entire NFL.Also, as I always say, future production is no less valuable than current production, so even if Fitzgerald struggles for another year or two, it doesn't outweigh the 5+ years of huge production he'll have after that. This is totally consistent with all of my core ranking philosophies- the philosophies that cause me to put guys like VJax, Dez, Crabtree, and Jonathan Stewart in my top 10 despite weaker short-term value than the guys around them.

Yeah, those rankings need some help. If we drafted today and the first receiver to go was Fitz, we would all laugh and deservedly so.

You could feel free to laugh. I laughed at the guy who drafted Randy Moss high in our startup in 2007. Ultimately, he who laughs last laughs loudest.
Im not sure i would consider the situation better after one decent game. I guess its encouraging, but getting a 93 yard game out of your #1 WR shouldnt have anyone feeling giddy. I agree with ranking based on talent, i just dont think Fitz is any more talented than the AJ, CJ or Austin, at least enough to totally ignore the situation difference. Edited by Go deep

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Personally, I think it's a combination of factors. For one, Rivers has raised his game to a new level. For another, so has Antonio Gates. For a third (and this is a factor being underrated by everyone so far), Rivers has played KC (25th in yards allowed, 13th in NYPA against), Jax (29th and 32nd, respectively), Seattle (31st and 23rd), Arizona (26th and 21st), and Oakland (10th and 26th). Four of his five opponents rank 25th or worse in passing yards allowed. Four of his five opponents rank 21st or worse in NYPA allowed. His schedule of opposing passing defenses so far has been miserable. Now, that's not the only reason Rivers is playing out of his mind, but anyone who thinks that hasn't been a factor has his head in the sand.

I think the schedule has been a factor, but at this early stage in the season, those rankings might look better for those teams if you factored out Rivers' performance against them.
There's definitely a "chicken-or-the-egg" factor at work, but there's no denying the fact that Rivers has had a pretty cushy schedule so far.

Im not sure i would consider the situation better after one decent game. I guess its encouraging, but getting a 93 yard game out of your #1 WR shouldnt be have anyone feeling giddy.

I agree with ranking based on talent, i just dont think Fitz is any more talented than the AJ, CJ or Austin, at least enough to totally ignore the situation difference.

I'm not feeling giddy, I was just really puzzled how you could say it didn't look like it would be getting better any time soon after Fitzgerald was just coming off his best game of the season despite playing with a UFA Rookie. And while 93 yards might not be the kind of game that single-handedly wins you games, 93 yards every week gets you a 1500 yard season. Mostly, though, I was encouraged by the fact that Fitzgerald had more than 50% of his team's passing yardage. That's at least a mild reason for hope that brighter days are ahead.

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There are 2 Schaub's in your rankings SSOG

Thanks for the heads up. It's a glitch in the matrix. The higher Schaub is actually Tom Brady. No idea why the website switched the name, but I've unranked him and reranked him and it seems to have fixed the problem. Lemme know if you see any other glitches like that.

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Hasn't Fitz been battling injuries too? A guy with his talent doesn't just disappear. You don't downgrade elite talents based on a few games. Some of you are way too reactionary.

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Hasn't Fitz been battling injuries too? A guy with his talent doesn't just disappear. You don't downgrade elite talents based on a few games. Some of you are way too reactionary.

Yes, Fitz hasn't been 100%.I don't know that people are being too reactionary. Most people aren't suggesting dropping him out of Tier 1, they're just suggesting sliding him behind guys like Andre, Calvin, or Austin. I can totally understand why someone would do that. I'm not going to do it, myself, but I get the reasoning behind it and I don't think it's terrible process or anything.

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Going to respond to some posts in a bit, but wanted to post first and let you all know that my rankings are updated, and the change log is available here. As always, I'm looking forward to hearing what you guys have to say about the recent update.

Still not dropping Steve Smith after another injury to the guy. Situation is horrible and not getting better anytime soon either.

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No. He's a good WR, but there are 10-15 guys with similar talent. He's not going to sustain this kind of TD production and his reception totals will probably regress a bit.

Most likely on the TDs (that's kind of obvious), but why would his reception totals regress? I can see an argument where they increase as Eli gets even more comfortable with him.

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Maybe Rivers is "more efficient" and "on fire" because he is spreading the ball around more and not trying to force it to one guy--namely, VJax.

What what what what what? VJax was 34th in targets last season, behind guys like Brent Celek, Greg Olsen, and Davone Bess, and one target ahead of Marques Colston (the #1 WR in the offense most famous for spreading it around and NOT forcing it to one guy). And now the problem with San Diego's offense last year was that they threw it to VJax *TOO MUCH*?! I repeat: what?!

Personally, I think it's a combination of factors. For one, Rivers has raised his game to a new level. For another, so has Antonio Gates. For a third (and this is a factor being underrated by everyone so far), Rivers has played KC (25th in yards allowed, 13th in NYPA against), Jax (29th and 32nd, respectively), Seattle (31st and 23rd), Arizona (26th and 21st), and Oakland (10th and 26th). Four of his five opponents rank 25th or worse in passing yards allowed. Four of his five opponents rank 21st or worse in NYPA allowed. His schedule of opposing passing defenses so far has been miserable. Now, that's not the only reason Rivers is playing out of his mind, but anyone who thinks that hasn't been a factor has his head in the sand.

You have to remember that this early in the season (with limited games), Rivers' production against those teams goes a long way towards their being ranked so low. The point is well taken, but I don't think Rivers' production is necessarily so inflated by the opposing defenses that it should really be discounted.

ETA: I see this has already been adressed, should have read down further first I guess.

Edited by Dr. Octopus

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Personally, I think it's a combination of factors. For one, Rivers has raised his game to a new level. For another, so has Antonio Gates. For a third (and this is a factor being underrated by everyone so far), Rivers has played KC (25th in yards allowed, 13th in NYPA against), Jax (29th and 32nd, respectively), Seattle (31st and 23rd), Arizona (26th and 21st), and Oakland (10th and 26th). Four of his five opponents rank 25th or worse in passing yards allowed. Four of his five opponents rank 21st or worse in NYPA allowed. His schedule of opposing passing defenses so far has been miserable. Now, that's not the only reason Rivers is playing out of his mind, but anyone who thinks that hasn't been a factor has his head in the sand.

I think the schedule has been a factor, but at this early stage in the season, those rankings might look better for those teams if you factored out Rivers' performance against them.
There's definitely a "chicken-or-the-egg" factor at work, but there's no denying the fact that Rivers has had a pretty cushy schedule so far.
Well, you'd really have to do this with all QBs and resort to get a more accurate feel for how the rankings would change, but here is a view of how those teams look without Rivers' performances against them:

KC is giving up 240 passing yards per game, which is #25 in the league. Remove Rivers' 298 yards against them, and they are giving up 220 passing yards per game. Around average.

Jacksonville is giving up 282 passing yards per game, which is #29 in the league. Remove Rivers' 334 yards against them, and they are giving up 269 passing yards per game. Still bad.

Seattle is giving up 302 passing yards per game, which is #31 in the league. Remove Rivers' 455 yards against them, and they are giving up 251 passing yards per game. Still not good, but obviously much better.

Arizona is giving up 241 passing yards per game, which is #26 in the league. And Rivers had exactly 241 passing yards against them.

Oakland is giving up 198 passing yards per game, which is #10 in the league. Remove Rivers' 431 yards against them, and they are giving up 140 passing yards per game. Huge difference.

All in all, it's true that it's been a weak set of pass defenses he has faced. But his performance against Oakland shows that he can play well against any caliber of pass defense. I'd say it's been a factor in his great season to date, but a small one.

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Going to respond to some posts in a bit, but wanted to post first and let you all know that my rankings are updated, and the change log is available here. As always, I'm looking forward to hearing what you guys have to say about the recent update.

Still not dropping Steve Smith after another injury to the guy. Situation is horrible and not getting better anytime soon either.
:hifive:

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Hasn't Fitz been battling injuries too? A guy with his talent doesn't just disappear. You don't downgrade elite talents based on a few games. Some of you are way too reactionary.

Yes, Fitz hasn't been 100%.I don't know that people are being too reactionary. Most people aren't suggesting dropping him out of Tier 1, they're just suggesting sliding him behind guys like Andre, Calvin, or Austin. I can totally understand why someone would do that. I'm not going to do it, myself, but I get the reasoning behind it and I don't think it's terrible process or anything.
At this point, I definitely consider Miles Austin the #1 dynasty WR. The week before the season, I traded Andre Johnson (& Reggie Wayne) for Miles Austin (& Jonathan Stewart). At the time, I thought it was a decent downgrade from AJ to Miles, but that was the tradeoff to get Stewart :unsure:. I also have Calvin Johnson in the same pool.There is no chance I would trade Austin back for AJ straight up, and having both it would take more to get me to give up Austin than it would CJ. He has the best situation of the top WR's, and he's both the possession receiver and the deep threat and I don't think you can question his talent anymore. The only possible knock on him before the season was the fear of him being a 1-year wonder, and those doubts have been put to rest. I don't think it's a case of downgrading AJ/CJ/Fitz, as much as the fact that Austin has answered all the questions people had about him, and he should now be upgraded. I guess the only argument I can still see against Austin is Dez Bryant overtaking him in the pecking order but I don't see that as imminent, and I think there's enough to go around. Edited by Northern Voice

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If you meant DeSean then lack of PPR upside, dependence on the deep ball, and lack of success with Kolb this year. But it's close, I agree.

I was referring to DeSean, who I really like. I really wanted to be down on DeSean after the Cowboys passed on him and he went to the rival. But he is just too talented. There isn't a corner in the NFL that can keep him contained, one on one, without the D-line getting pressure on the QB. He is just too quick. Give him enough time, he will get open. I keep my rankings to standard scoring, as that is what the large majority of my leagues are. I don't know that I view dependence on the deep ball as a negative, because they have been so consistant. If his struggles continue with Kolb, I could re-visit my evaluation. But with both McNabb and now Vick, you can almost pencil in a 40+ yard TD score every week. On a side note, I never thought I would be saying that both Maclin and DeSean could depend on Michael Vick being at the helm, as opposed to Kevin Kolb.

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How many people would take Rivers over Rodgers or Brees right now? I think the big separation there before the season was Rodgers and Brees had so many weapons, whereas people assumed SD would become more of a running team. The marquee weapons in NO and GB are coming up small (or hurt), and the opposite is happening in SD. Rivers is on pace for 5000 yards. Gates is the best receiver in 2010 so far. Floyd is performing well. It's not like we can question Rivers' talent - he has 2 straight years of 100+ QB rating and 4000+ yards.

It seems the sole thing separating them now is Rodgers' running stats. Each week where Rivers destroys and Rodgers does merely good (e.g., failing to put Detroit away) makes that difference less meaningful.

Edited by thriftyrocker

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Hasn't Fitz been battling injuries too? A guy with his talent doesn't just disappear. You don't downgrade elite talents based on a few games. Some of you are way too reactionary.

Yes, Fitz hasn't been 100%.I don't know that people are being too reactionary. Most people aren't suggesting dropping him out of Tier 1, they're just suggesting sliding him behind guys like Andre, Calvin, or Austin. I can totally understand why someone would do that. I'm not going to do it, myself, but I get the reasoning behind it and I don't think it's terrible process or anything.
At this point, I definitely consider Miles Austin the #1 dynasty WR. The week before the season, I traded Andre Johnson (& Reggie Wayne) for Miles Austin (& Jonathan Stewart). At the time, I thought it was a decent downgrade from AJ to Miles, but that was the tradeoff to get Stewart :thumbup:. I also have Calvin Johnson in the same pool.There is no chance I would trade Austin back for AJ straight up, and having both it would take more to get me to give up Austin than it would CJ. He has the best situation of the top WR's, and he's both the possession receiver and the deep threat and I don't think you can question his talent anymore. The only possible knock on him before the season was the fear of him being a 1-year wonder, and those doubts have been put to rest. I don't think it's a case of downgrading AJ/CJ/Fitz, as much as the fact that Austin has answered all the questions people had about him, and he should now be upgraded. I guess the only argument I can still see against Austin is Dez Bryant overtaking him in the pecking order but I don't see that as imminent, and I think there's enough to go around.
I can see Austin over Fitz. But the only reason I can see to put him over AJ is age. Does this play a factor in your statement? If not, I would have to disagree with you.First reason being talent. I am huge believer that the are both top 5 NFL talents at their possition. The difference being that Johnson is #1, and Austin is #5. Track record also plays a part. AJ is coming off back to back 1,500 yard seasons. Austin has had one season's worth of elite production. The first season (12 games), he was the only threat on a sputtering Cowboy offense, unable to run the ball. Austin was not on tape, and the things the Cowboys were doing with him, were new. That offense now has Felix Jones healthy, looking great, Dez Bryant, who looks like he could be very special, and a reinvented Roy Williams, who also - at worst - looks like a legit 2 WR. Because Austin does not have the track record of AJ, I see a few potential issues:1. Bryant becomes the better player. Sure, they can both get theirs. But if Bryant is the better player, Austin will not be putting up #1 overall WR numbers on his own team, let alone the NFL.2. Jason Garrett and Wade Phillips are done. The Cowboys need to run the ball consistently, and a new coach should understand that. Felix is legit (on a side note, buy now!) .3. Jason Witten is a top 5 TE. They are not using him as they once did, because he is such a great blocker. Especially in the Redzone, he is not getting targets, because he is not out on routes. A correction to the O-line, or a new coach could/should fix it. 4. just summing it all up: His is not just going to be sharing targets with Dez. He will be sharing a reduced total number of targets, with Dez, Witten, Bryant, and Williams. The Cowboys went from one of the best running teams in the Redzone, to one of the worst. That should change too. Don't get me wrong. I love Austin and have him down as my #3, behind Fitz and AJ. I am not saying that he will not, or could not put up top numbers for the next 7 years. Simply pointing out why I think he has more risk than AJ.

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How many people would take Rivers over Rodgers or Brees right now? I think the big separation there before the season was Rodgers and Brees had so many weapons, whereas people assumed SD would become more of a running team. The marquee weapons in NO and GB are coming up small (or hurt), and the opposite is happening in SD. Rivers is on pace for 5000 yards. Gates is the best receiver in 2010 so far. Floyd is performing well. It's not like we can question Rivers' talent - he has 2 straight years of 100+ QB rating and 4000+ yards. It seems the sole thing separating them now is Rodgers' running stats. Each week where Rivers destroys and Rodgers does merely good (e.g., failing to put Detroit away) makes that difference less meaningful.

I was just thinking about this. Rivers has promptly removed any substantial gap between he an Rodgers. He has put up insane numbers, and has simply looked elite. I think Rodgers and Rivers are now very close to a coin toss. I think Brees is a step behind the other two, due to age. Rivers should, and I think will, be a 1st round draft pick in most startups next year. He has looked that good, and performed that well. In the startup I did last year, the first place team drafted Rivers, Gates, and Floyd. I am in 2nd place and average 16 less points a game (non PPR)! If SD keeps this up, the rest of the leauge is doomed.

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Still not dropping Steve Smith after another injury to the guy. Situation is horrible and not getting better anytime soon either.

What do you mean? I dropped him from 14th to 18th. I dropped his value from 77 in August, to 75 in September, and now to 70 in October. You can say that I'm not dropping him enough, but you can't say that I'm not dropping him at all.

How many people would take Rivers over Rodgers or Brees right now? I think the big separation there before the season was Rodgers and Brees had so many weapons, whereas people assumed SD would become more of a running team. The marquee weapons in NO and GB are coming up small (or hurt), and the opposite is happening in SD. Rivers is on pace for 5000 yards. Gates is the best receiver in 2010 so far. Floyd is performing well. It's not like we can question Rivers' talent - he has 2 straight years of 100+ QB rating and 4000+ yards.

It seems the sole thing separating them now is Rodgers' running stats. Each week where Rivers destroys and Rodgers does merely good (e.g., failing to put Detroit away) makes that difference less meaningful.

Not me. I'd still take Rodgers, Brees, and Romo over Rivers. I should definitely bump Rivers over Manning, though. It's important to remember that players are never as good as they look when they're on a hot streak. Over a full 16-game season, a 4-game hot streak will account for 25% of a player's production. 5 weeks in, a 4-game hot streak will account for 80% of a player's production. There's always a lot of danger in overreacting when a player opens the season playing out of his mind, which is why I still have Orton and Vick outside my top 10. Also, when last I checked, Norv Turner was still in town. I don't like placing my trust in Norv Turner.

I have zero questions about Rivers' place as an elite NFL QB. I just have a few remaining reservations about his place as an elite fantasy QB.

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Still not dropping Steve Smith after another injury to the guy. Situation is horrible and not getting better anytime soon either.

What do you mean? I dropped him from 14th to 18th. I dropped his value from 77 in August, to 75 in September, and now to 70 in October. You can say that I'm not dropping him enough, but you can't say that I'm not dropping him at all.

How many people would take Rivers over Rodgers or Brees right now? I think the big separation there before the season was Rodgers and Brees had so many weapons, whereas people assumed SD would become more of a running team. The marquee weapons in NO and GB are coming up small (or hurt), and the opposite is happening in SD. Rivers is on pace for 5000 yards. Gates is the best receiver in 2010 so far. Floyd is performing well. It's not like we can question Rivers' talent - he has 2 straight years of 100+ QB rating and 4000+ yards.

It seems the sole thing separating them now is Rodgers' running stats. Each week where Rivers destroys and Rodgers does merely good (e.g., failing to put Detroit away) makes that difference less meaningful.

Not me. I'd still take Rodgers, Brees, and Romo over Rivers. I should definitely bump Rivers over Manning, though. It's important to remember that players are never as good as they look when they're on a hot streak. Over a full 16-game season, a 4-game hot streak will account for 25% of a player's production. 5 weeks in, a 4-game hot streak will account for 80% of a player's production. There's always a lot of danger in overreacting when a player opens the season playing out of his mind, which is why I still have Orton and Vick outside my top 10. Also, when last I checked, Norv Turner was still in town. I don't like placing my trust in Norv Turner.

I have zero questions about Rivers' place as an elite NFL QB. I just have a few remaining reservations about his place as an elite fantasy QB.

Rivers > Romo and it isn't even close.

If you swapped teams giving Rivers all those talented WR's and gave Romo Gates and a bunch of stiffs Rivers would be light years in stats ahead of Romo

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Still not dropping Steve Smith after another injury to the guy. Situation is horrible and not getting better anytime soon either.

What do you mean? I dropped him from 14th to 18th. I dropped his value from 77 in August, to 75 in September, and now to 70 in October. You can say that I'm not dropping him enough, but you can't say that I'm not dropping him at all.

How many people would take Rivers over Rodgers or Brees right now? I think the big separation there before the season was Rodgers and Brees had so many weapons, whereas people assumed SD would become more of a running team. The marquee weapons in NO and GB are coming up small (or hurt), and the opposite is happening in SD. Rivers is on pace for 5000 yards. Gates is the best receiver in 2010 so far. Floyd is performing well. It's not like we can question Rivers' talent - he has 2 straight years of 100+ QB rating and 4000+ yards.

It seems the sole thing separating them now is Rodgers' running stats. Each week where Rivers destroys and Rodgers does merely good (e.g., failing to put Detroit away) makes that difference less meaningful.

Not me. I'd still take Rodgers, Brees, and Romo over Rivers. I should definitely bump Rivers over Manning, though. It's important to remember that players are never as good as they look when they're on a hot streak. Over a full 16-game season, a 4-game hot streak will account for 25% of a player's production. 5 weeks in, a 4-game hot streak will account for 80% of a player's production. There's always a lot of danger in overreacting when a player opens the season playing out of his mind, which is why I still have Orton and Vick outside my top 10. Also, when last I checked, Norv Turner was still in town. I don't like placing my trust in Norv Turner.

I have zero questions about Rivers' place as an elite NFL QB. I just have a few remaining reservations about his place as an elite fantasy QB.

Rivers > Romo and it isn't even close.

If you swapped teams giving Rivers all those talented WR's and gave Romo Gates and a bunch of stiffs Rivers would be light years in stats ahead of Romo

I tend to agree, but i also wonder why Brees over Manning.

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I've had a chance to watch Miles Austin more this year than I ever have, and I'm coming around. The guy is ALWAYS open it seems like. He's a cockroach that won't go away.

Anyway, can we discuss Hester for a bit?

(RotoWire) Hester says the plan is for him to be scaled back a little on offense to keep him fresh for the return game, the Chicago Tribune reports. Analysis: Hester, who had been on the field for 90.7 percent of the plays through four games, was on the field for only 19 of the 64 offensive snaps during Sunday's victory over the Panthers. Hester's playing time isn't likely to be dramatically reduced again when quarterback Jay Cutler returns, but he may not be on the field at the 90 percent rate moving forward, making this better news for Earl Bennett and possibly even Devin Aromashodu.

My thoughts.... It appears that Hester is drawing the #1 CB in each game, and that the routes he's being asked to run are the intermediate to deep routes, of which, Cutler does not have time to attempt. The Bears offensive line is well, offensive. Cutler simply doesn't have time to get Hester the ball on a consistent basis. That said, I have not watched the Bears every week and would like to hear others thoughts. Hester's production to this point has be abysmal.

Edited by GreatLakesMike

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I think Danny Amendola needs to be revisited, he hasn't been touched on since before the season. What's your opinion on his value for this year and after? He will have a decent quarterback going forward and now is 6th in targets with 50, albeit 19 in the last game. However, the Rams seem to always be in trade talks for WR's and will surely look acquire someone this offseason through FA or the Draft.

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