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Dynasty Rankings (10 Viewers)

Jonathan Stewart has been used as an example to bolster EBF's argument, but if you overpaid for him in his rookie year by drafting him in a first round of a startup, were you ever able to move him for top value in subsequent years? His owners are still waiting for the big payoff and right now, if one looks at what the consensus 1st round picks are for a 2012 startup, Stewart is not a name that is mentioned.
What RBs do not have a tenuous hold on elite value? What RBs could go through a disappointing season and come out of it with the same high trade value? I don't think there's any. If anything, Richardson's value will be more stable even if he disappoints or gets RBBC'ed, because the window is still long. Compared to other guys outside the top 3, Charles, DMC, Forte, Mathews, MJD all have issues that could make their value go down like a rock in 2012.
Stewart never had elite value to begin with IMO - people have paid an elite price but to date they have not gotten an elite return. Richardson may be less of a crapshoot but it still is a crapshoot. Personally, I need to see what a player can actually do on the field before I will pay what would be the equivalent value of an established elite player. And I known for rolling the dice on players, but I always have some NFL experience to base that on, which I don't yet in Richardson.
 
The notion that any rookie is a safe 1st round pick in a startup is questionable, in my opinion. Only in the most RB heavy leagues should Trent be considered a top 12-14 startup pick, and even then, there is certainly risk.

I respect EFB's stance on a guy he is 100% certain about. Two points:

In EFB's defense, if he is right about TR, he will have been well worth a first round pick. If TR is legit, and contributes early, he has a good shot at 5 years of RB1 production. The value of that potential is massive and, I think, is being undervalued in the converation. The last 2 drafts haven't produced a RB on track for that production; nobody I would call a good bet for it, even. There is a very big market (void) for a 21 or 22 year old stud RB. McCoy being the last, a year ago (off the top of my head).

Secondly, and this goes against the "top dynasy back already" talk: Until you see a player do it in the NFL, how can you rank him above guys thar are still in their prime, and are currently doing it? I.E. Arian Foster. The VBD that Foster has produced matches what most good RBs do in close to double the duration. 2 more years of that, followed by 1-2 years of borderline RB1 production is more value than most RBs are capable of providing in their careers.

 
What RBs do not have a tenuous hold on elite value? What RBs could go through a disappointing season and come out of it with the same high trade value? I don't think there's any. If anything, Richardson's value will be more stable even if he disappoints or gets RBBC'ed, because the window is still long. Compared to other guys outside the top 3, Charles, DMC, Forte, Mathews, MJD all have issues that could make their value go down like a rock in 2012.
Every single player's value is going to drop with a bad year. Unlike the others that you named, Richardson wouldn't have a track record, although his window is longer, as you pointed out.If Richard came in and didn't perform, his value would drop as Ingram's did. It started higher, so it wouldn't be as low as Ingram's now - but it could easily take a major hit.
 
Stewart never had elite value to begin with IMO - people have paid an elite price but to date they have not gotten an elite return.
I think that's debatable given he was an elite RB down the stretch in 2009 when Williams was out and that he could be traded as RB1/top30 value at a lot of points, including during the lockout 6 mos ago when people assumed DeAngelo would sign with Denver. (Perhaps my perception is tainted by having bought and sold him at good times.)
If Richard came in and didn't perform, his value would drop as Ingram's did. It started higher, so it wouldn't be as low as Ingram's now - but it could easily take a major hit.
Ingram has performed well (well enough?) from an NFL standpoint but is stuck in a bad situation. He still would command a top 5 rookie pick in trade. If he has another similar year, he will still command a decent mid 1st rookie pick under the guise that PT will not be able to cruise forever. Ingram is still a good enough prospect that I could swap him in most cases for a pick good enough to take whoever Cincy drafts (assuming that's not Richardson). Some of the top 10 RBs could not survive a bad year and have that value. Richardson is a much better prospect than Knile, Lattimore, etc., so I think, like Ingram this year, the chances I could swap him next year if I don't like what I see this year are pretty high.I think this "major hit" is relative. It took 2 years of DMC looking worse than Justin Fargas for his value to drop significantly, and the first good game got the train rolling again pretty quickly.
 
The Jonathan Stewart example just proves why Richardson is so valuable. Stewart has never been the unquestioned starter for Carolina, yet has remained a very valuable dynasty commodity. I checked my most recent startup (from 2010) and he went at 1.09. I checked the most recent Backyard Brawl draft (from 2011) and he went at 2.08. That qualifies as elite value in my book, and this is a guy who has never even had a vice grip on a starting job.

http://football4.myfantasyleague.com/2010/options?L=74815&O=17

http://football23.myfantasyleague.com/2011/options?L=64055&O=17

So, if Richardson has the incredible misfortune of being drafted by a team that has another elite RB in his prime (like Stewart with DeAngelo Williams), he'll probably still retain top value on the basis of talent, youth, and potential (like Stewart). This is provided that he can play well when given opportunities, as Stewart always has. I feel very confident that he will. So for me, the doomsday scenario of Richardson becoming the next Jonathan Stewart isn't very scary. It just shows how valuable he is. And Stewart's predicament is almost unprecedented in recent history. I can't remember another team spending first round picks on RBs in such short succession, only to keep both of them. More often than not you get a SJax/Faulk, Alexander/Watters, McAllister/Williams situation where the incumbent is on borrowed time once the team drafts the next guy.

As for drafting rookies and young players high, I don't believe that a player has to play a down in the NFL to prove that he has elite NFL talent. Richardson has demonstrated all the qualities of a franchise NFL back. The fact that he has done it against college competition is just a technicality. It's like I said earlier. People talk about how you can't rate a player who has never proven himself against NFL competition, but then they'll go and rank guys like DeMarco Murray and Julius Jones as top 10 dynasty backs on the basis of a handful of games (which is not really a big enough sample size to constitute "proof" of anything).

I've seen all that I needed to see from Richardson and I'd feel great about having him as my franchise player in a dynasty FF league. I would advise anyone doing a startup to value him as a top 10 overall pick. I understand if others don't feel comfortable making that call yet, but I genuinely believe that his youth/talent combination places him among the most valuable backs available.

 
The Jonathan Stewart example just proves why Richardson is so valuable. Stewart has never been the unquestioned starter for Carolina, yet has remained a very valuable dynasty commodity. I checked my most recent startup (from 2010) and he went at 1.09. I checked the most recent Backyard Brawl draft (from 2011) and he went at 2.08. That qualifies as elite value in my book, and this is a guy who has never even had a vice grip on a starting job.
Seems like the goalposts have been moved. I thought the discussion had to do with paying an elite price for a RB, which in my book is usually a high first round pick. I don't think anyone said he wasn't worth a 2nd round pick. And the 2.08 is considered an elite value pick? Obviously you think so, but generally, when I have had a 2.08 pick I have rarely thought, "Oh goodie, I am going to get an elite player with this!"

As far as the 1.09, OK, for the sake of argument I will agree that is paying an elite price, but that is just one draft and it seems like an outlier to me - hard to recall but I don't think that was the startup ADP for Stewart in dynasties for 2010. A league I was in he went at 2.07, which seemed right to me at the time - but perhaps my league was the outlier and he was flying off the board in the 1st round in all other leagues (but I doubt it).

 
What do people think of Ben Tates value going forward? Trade him high or hold on until he possibly gets full time work (whether that be at HOU or another team)?
I would trade him high. Not convinced he is going to have a long career as a full time starting RB.
 
I agree with EBF on Trent Richardson, particularly on his value not likely dropping much in the event of a poor season. I don't think, by "top value" EBF is saying that a 1st round startup pick in Richardson (which I think he will commonly be) will yield another 1st round startup player the following year even after a bad year. In other words, I don't think he is saying there will be no drop whatsoever following a bad season. I think he means that even after a bad year, you could still yield late 2nd or early 3rd value for Richardson which I think (1) is still top value and (2) is very likely. In fact, given the hype (right or wrong) and skillset behind Richardson, I think the second round of startups is the WORST he could drop to in 2013 barring a major injury. That makes for an incredibly high floor for Richardson and as such, presents value in the 1.08-1.12 range in 2012 startups.

Stewart appears to be the player being used both as support and against EBF's assertion regarding top value so I took a closer look. I went back and looked at results from the Hyper Active league startup drafts. I figured the HA leagues would be a good place to start because they drafted startups each of the 2008 and 2009 years and provided two data points each year (the Hyper and Active startup drafts).

Here's what I found:

Jonathan Stewart was drafted at 2.11 and 2.01 in the two 2008 startup drafts (HA 3).

After an 880 total yards, 10 TD effort, he was drafted at 3.02 and 3.01 in 2009 in HA4, a 3-12 slot drop, but neither more than one round. His value held up pretty good - even if you had to reach in the 1st round to get him in 2008 (which in this case, you did not).

I looked at a few other highly drafted veteran players in these startups that experienced drops after 2008 as a comparison:

Ladanian Tomlinson was drafted at 1.02 and 1.02 in the two 2008 startup drafts. After a 1500+ total yards, 12 TD season (great for a mere human, below standards for the then King of FF), he was taken at 6.01 and 6.10 in 2009.

Clinton Portis was drafted at 2.02 and 2.07 in 2008. After 1700 total yards and 9 TD, he was drafted at 5.08 and 6.03 in 2009.

Marion Barber was taken at 1.09 and 1.09 in 2008. After 1300 total yards and 9 TD, he was taken at 3.12 and 3.11 in 2009.

Joseph Addai was taken at 1.04 and 1.05 in 2008. After 750 total yards and 7 TD (below Stew production due to nagging injuries iirc), he was drafted at 8.06 and 7.01 the following year (the year Donald Brown was drafted in the 1st round of the NFL draft).

Marshawn Lynch was taken at 1.08 and 1.06 in 2008. After 1,350 total yards and 9TDs, he dropped to 3.10 and 4.10 in 2009.

Relative to these older non-rookie "proven" 1st round draft picks, Stewart held his value far better after a less productive 2008 than the other runners (not including Addai who had the worst year of the bunch).

 
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Stewart proves EBF's point. If you want him you'll have to pay an early first to get him. The only people who think he'll go for less don't actually own the guy. I'd have to get the 1.1 (Richardson) to move him for a pick.

 
Stewart proves EBF's point. If you want him you'll have to pay an early first to get him. The only people who think he'll go for less don't actually own the guy. I'd have to get the 1.1 (Richardson) to move him for a pick.
Not true, I own him in one league and have gotten zero trade offers in the last year, so people haven't been exactly beating down my door to try to acquire him.
 
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Stewart proves EBF's point. If you want him you'll have to pay an early first to get him. The only people who think he'll go for less don't actually own the guy. I'd have to get the 1.1 (Richardson) to move him for a pick.
Not true, I own him in one league and have gotten zero trade offers in the last year, so people haven't been exactly beating down my door to try to acquire him.
That's great. I have to pay an early first for Stewart. Whoopee...I guess I won't own the guy who, after what 4 years...still hasn't taken the job, is aging, and only seems to have value when DeAngelo has been injured? And now with Cam as the best goal line option he has even less value?The people who have always had, and still have, Stewart on their roster are delusional. If you get one more good/useful season out of him after some DWill injuries, I'd be thanking my lucky stars.

 
Stewart proves EBF's point. If you want him you'll have to pay an early first to get him. The only people who think he'll go for less don't actually own the guy. I'd have to get the 1.1 (Richardson) to move him for a pick.
Not true, I own him in one league and have gotten zero trade offers in the last year, so people haven't been exactly beating down my door to try to acquire him.
That's great. I have to pay an early first for Stewart. Whoopee...I guess I won't own the guy who, after what 4 years...still hasn't taken the job, is aging, and only seems to have value when DeAngelo has been injured? And now with Cam as the best goal line option he has even less value?The people who have always had, and still have, Stewart on their roster are delusional. If you get one more good/useful season out of him after some DWill injuries, I'd be thanking my lucky stars.
Isn't the expectation that he will be gone after this season?, in which case now is the time to get him in case he lands a full time role. If he can be had cheap it seems like a good risk in addition to him being a useful RB2/flex play even this year. Espessially in PPR leagues
 
We can flag this one for future discussion.

And looks like I'll be hoping there are other Michael Turner, I mean Jonathan Stewart, owners looking to sell out of boredom and frustration with his situation.

 
Stewart proves EBF's point. If you want him you'll have to pay an early first to get him. The only people who think he'll go for less don't actually own the guy. I'd have to get the 1.1 (Richardson) to move him for a pick.
Not true, I own him in one league and have gotten zero trade offers in the last year, so people haven't been exactly beating down my door to try to acquire him.
That's great. I have to pay an early first for Stewart. Whoopee...I guess I won't own the guy who, after what 4 years...still hasn't taken the job, is aging, and only seems to have value when DeAngelo has been injured? And now with Cam as the best goal line option he has even less value?The people who have always had, and still have, Stewart on their roster are delusional. If you get one more good/useful season out of him after some DWill injuries, I'd be thanking my lucky stars.
Isn't the expectation that he will be gone after this season?, in which case now is the time to get him in case he lands a full time role. If he can be had cheap it seems like a good risk in addition to him being a useful RB2/flex play even this year. Espessially in PPR leagues
The expectation was also that DWill would be gone and yet Carolina resigned him...No way I call him a useful RB2 this year either. If I'm gonna buy, it's gonna be at a steep discount around week 10, when he's had ten more weeks of not putting up useful numbers and DWill gets the rushes and Cam gets the TDs.
 
We can flag this one for future discussion.And looks like I'll be hoping there are other Michael Turner, I mean Jonathan Stewart, owners looking to sell out of boredom and frustration with his situation.
The thing is that with Michael Turner, you paid way less to get him to begin with, you knew he was behind one of the most talented RBs of all time and would sit for a few years before he left, and you were ok with that (or I was, at least).With Stewart, there's been all this hype since 2007 (I think he was drafted there) and the only time you've had results is when DeAngelo was hurt. There have been games here and there, but unless you believe he gets let go and performs as an RB1 similar to Turner in a new place (a lot of ifs) then you've already taken a bath on him and you're still underwater. You have to hold Stewart and hope for the best, but I personally think they re-sign him.
 
Stewart proves EBF's point. If you want him you'll have to pay an early first to get him. The only people who think he'll go for less don't actually own the guy. I'd have to get the 1.1 (Richardson) to move him for a pick.
Not true, I own him in one league and have gotten zero trade offers in the last year, so people haven't been exactly beating down my door to try to acquire him.
That's great. I have to pay an early first for Stewart. Whoopee...I guess I won't own the guy who, after what 4 years...still hasn't taken the job, is aging, and only seems to have value when DeAngelo has been injured? And now with Cam as the best goal line option he has even less value?The people who have always had, and still have, Stewart on their roster are delusional. If you get one more good/useful season out of him after some DWill injuries, I'd be thanking my lucky stars.
I think the point was not that owners have been smart in holding onto Stewart, acquiring him for what may have been too much or continuing to value him where he has been valued, but that despite fairly weak fantasy performances, his value has held up over time because of age and perceived talent. Same would be true for Trent Richardson but at an even higher level. This creates a safety net when drafting Richardson knowing that if he has a slow start and you decide to bail, you can still deal him after Year 1 for a fairly high price.
 
What you've already got invested shouldn't influence your decision from here. Obviously we wouldn't spend the #1 pick in 2008 on Stewart in hindsight - having to wait four years for a guy who may or may not ever produce as much as Rice, Charles, Foster, Forte, McFadden, C Johnson (what a class) would make that nuts.

But if you believe he's a big time talent he's still more valuable than most rookies this year. Maybe you have to wait another year until DWil is gone, but what rookie isn't that true for? I'd take Richardson over him (only because he's younger), but no one else.

 
Stewart proves EBF's point. If you want him you'll have to pay an early first to get him. The only people who think he'll go for less don't actually own the guy. I'd have to get the 1.1 (Richardson) to move him for a pick.
Not true, I own him in one league and have gotten zero trade offers in the last year, so people haven't been exactly beating down my door to try to acquire him.
That's great. I have to pay an early first for Stewart. Whoopee...I guess I won't own the guy who, after what 4 years...still hasn't taken the job, is aging, and only seems to have value when DeAngelo has been injured? And now with Cam as the best goal line option he has even less value?The people who have always had, and still have, Stewart on their roster are delusional. If you get one more good/useful season out of him after some DWill injuries, I'd be thanking my lucky stars.
I think the point was not that owners have been smart in holding onto Stewart, acquiring him for what may have been too much or continuing to value him where he has been valued, but that despite fairly weak fantasy performances, his value has held up over time because of age and perceived talent. Same would be true for Trent Richardson but at an even higher level. This creates a safety net when drafting Richardson knowing that if he has a slow start and you decide to bail, you can still deal him after Year 1 for a fairly high price.
Has his value really held up though? There's a difference between what an owner would take to deal him away and what another owner would pay to aquire them. I don't know too many people who would give up the #1 pick this year for Stewart.Of course what you have invested shouldn't influence your decision, but it often does. Owners don't want to admit that their pick may not live up to expectations, but the reality is, guys who took Reggie, Stewart, Moreno, Beanie, etc. would have been better off taking a small loss than holding out hope that they'd get top value for them. I don't think it's going to happen, but if Richardson goes out and puts up a stinker this year, I don't think too many people would give up the #1 pick next year for him. You may ask for it, but you won't get it (assuming it's not a much worse draft class of course).

 
'wdcrob said:
Stewart proves EBF's point. If you want him you'll have to pay an early first to get him. The only people who think he'll go for less don't actually own the guy. I'd have to get the 1.1 (Richardson) to move him for a pick.
Really? :rolleyes: Come on man. Where do you honestly think he goes in start ups?
 
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He goes higher than Portis, LT, and Westbrook. :)

I think we're starting to lose a key point in all this talk about Stewart: how likely is it that a probable top 15 overall draft pick winds up in a RBBC with another elite back? Stewart's situation is almost unprecedented in recent NFL history. I can't remember a team in the last 10 years ever having such a talented RB tandem and keeping it together for so long. As I said earlier, usually when an elite RB prospect is drafted into a backup role you get a Deuce/Ricky, SJax/Faulk, McGahee/Henry, or LJ/Priest situation where the young guy eventually supplants the older guy and becomes a FF monster in his own right. Even players who didn't instantly boom like Michael Turner, Thomas Jones, and Cedric Benson eventually found their opportunity.

I would argue that Stewart and his owners have been a little unlucky to wind up in the situation they're in. Carolina has two of the top ten most talented RBs in the league in their backfield and, for a variety reasons, made the unlikely decision to keep both of them long term. This is not the norm. It's an unlikely scenario. Of course Richardson's value will suffer slightly if he happens to be in a committee with a player like Ray Rice or LeSean McCoy. I just find that scenario improbable.

We haven't talked much about the other (and I would argue more likely scenario): him starting and producing from day one. He would walk into the starting lineup for many teams in the top 15 of the draft (Indy, Cleveland, St. Louis, Tampa, Washington, etc). If he has that Portis/Edge/Peterson type of rookie season then you're looking at a top 5 pick in next year's startup drafts.

I get that some people think he isn't in that elite class from a talent perspective. I'm just not one of those people. When you look at his talent/longevity combination, I can't think of anyone who's clearly superior in the NFL. So for me, taking him as one of the first few RBs off the board in a dynasty draft is a no-brainer. He's a great talent and he's unlikely to end up playing second fiddle on his NFL for very long, if at all. Even if he does, he will still carry very high dynasty value. I feel pretty confident saying that you won't be able to trade guys like Charles, Brady, Brees, Gronkowski, MJD, and Nicks for him a year from now. Feel free to sticky and bump this post if I'm wrong.

 
'wdcrob said:
Stewart proves EBF's point. If you want him you'll have to pay an early first to get him. The only people who think he'll go for less don't actually own the guy. I'd have to get the 1.1 (Richardson) to move him for a pick.
Really? :rolleyes: Come on man. Where do you honestly think he goes in start ups?
You don't think Stewart will go anywhere near Blackmon in a startup? I think Stewart will go maybe RB12-15 and Blackmon will be WR15-20.
 
'wdcrob said:
Stewart proves EBF's point. If you want him you'll have to pay an early first to get him. The only people who think he'll go for less don't actually own the guy. I'd have to get the 1.1 (Richardson) to move him for a pick.
Really? :rolleyes: Come on man. Where do you honestly think he goes in start ups?
You don't think Stewart will go anywhere near Blackmon in a startup? I think Stewart will go maybe RB12-15 and Blackmon will be WR15-20.
Um...but, weren't you guys talking about Richardson instead of Blackmon?
 
'wdcrob said:
Stewart proves EBF's point. If you want him you'll have to pay an early first to get him. The only people who think he'll go for less don't actually own the guy. I'd have to get the 1.1 (Richardson) to move him for a pick.
Really? :rolleyes: Come on man. Where do you honestly think he goes in start ups?
You don't think Stewart will go anywhere near Blackmon in a startup? I think Stewart will go maybe RB12-15 and Blackmon will be WR15-20.
Um...but, weren't you guys talking about Richardson instead of Blackmon?
Not sure where the confusion or disagreement is here.I like Richardson, but no one else, better than Stewart. So I'd use the 1.2 rookie pick on Stewart.BSS said: C'mon Man! Where do you think they'd go in a startup.Should I have said that Richardson would go before Stewart? I think he will.
 
'wdcrob said:
Stewart proves EBF's point. If you want him you'll have to pay an early first to get him. The only people who think he'll go for less don't actually own the guy. I'd have to get the 1.1 (Richardson) to move him for a pick.
Really? :rolleyes: Come on man. Where do you honestly think he goes in start ups?
You don't think Stewart will go anywhere near Blackmon in a startup? I think Stewart will go maybe RB12-15 and Blackmon will be WR15-20.
Um...but, weren't you guys talking about Richardson instead of Blackmon?
Not sure where the confusion or disagreement is here.I like Richardson, but no one else, better than Stewart. So I'd use the 1.2 rookie pick on Stewart.

BSS said: C'mon Man! Where do you think they'd go in a startup.

Should I have said that Richardson would go before Stewart? I think he will.
Yes, even though it appears redundant after stating that you would pay the 1.01 for Richardson. It was just that there was no transition and all of a sudden the discussion shifted to Blackmon and I couldn't figure out why. Anyway, thanks for the clarification!

 
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'squistion said:
Haven't seen enough of RIchardson to have a strong opinion, but what I saw didn't WOW me. He may be a great prospect, maybe the #1 rookie, but I personally think it would be silly to take him in the first round of a startup. Nowhere near the ADP level of certainty (at least for me).
This is pretty much my opinion as well, except I have seen a lot of Richardson. He's a great prospect, no doubt the #1 rookie for fantasy purposes this year, and a better running back prospect than anyone that has been available in the last few years. However, he isn't even close to impressing me as much as Peterson did and that is what he would need to do to be worthy of drafting him anywhere but the very, very end of the 1st round in a startup.However, EBF does make a strong point regarding trade value and that is something worth considering.
Here is what EBF says:
You draft Richardson and you have a valuable chip that you can move for top value almost regardless of how he performs on the field.
The premise is that Richardson will be able to be moved for top value in trade, almost irrespective of how he performs on the field and I don't agree with that. At this point we don't know what team he will be on and it is nice to declare him a mortal lock to succeed (as EBF has) but he has yet to play a down in the NFL. If Richardson has an Ingram type rookie season, then no, you won't be able to move him for top value - and I am not saying Ingram is as good a player, but getting top trade value after a rookie year is tied to some actual performance on the field, not just future potential.

Jonathan Stewart has been used as an example to bolster EBF's argument, but if you overpaid for him in his rookie year by drafting him in a first round of a startup, were you ever able to move him for top value in subsequent years? His owners are still waiting for the big payoff and right now, if one looks at what the consensus 1st round picks are for a 2012 startup, Stewart is not a name that is mentioned.

EBF is saying essentially that paying an elite price for Richardson is a can't lose proposition. He may turn out to be right, but I can't buy the notion of declaring any player to be a sure thing before the combine, the draft, and actually seeing some action in an NFL game.
I was absent for the day and missed a lot of discussion, but I will reply anyway.What I read him as saying, and I believe he is saying it with accuracy, is that Richardson provides you the opportunity to draft a player that has virtually no chance of losing value after the 2012 season. There are very few scenarios, barring a significant injury, that Richardson's stock would drop. About the only conceivable scenario I can envision is if somehow another elite, young running back landed on the same team as him during or after the 2012 season. It doesn't matter if he is drafted by a team with another young, elite running back since this discussion about his value presumes he lands in a feature back role. If he somehow gets drafted into a timeshare, his value is adjusted to reflect that and the point remains the same.

There are very, very, very few players that you can draft in a startup that are immune to losing value after the 1st season. Only the very top level players qualify for that status- generally the top few players at each position and that is it. All other players, even in dynasty, are weighted much more on the most recent body of work. Even if Richardson suffered a disaster of a rookie season, there would be PLENTY of people that would remain very optimistic about his upside and would be willing to pay essentially the same price he cost prior to the 2012 season. Mark Ingram is a perfect case study- his rookie year essentially could not have gone worse, yet in several of my leagues, his price tag remains relatively the same as it was prior to this year and he has even been traded for relative value. I don't see the same being true for someone like Wes Welker, Matthew Stafford, DeMarco Murray, etc... Heck, I don't even see the same being true of someone I said was a player that HAD to be drafted ahead of Richardson- Ryan Mathews.

Long story longer, what Richardson provides you is the ability to draft him and take a wait and see approach for a season or even 2. If after watching him play in the NFL you become convinced he isn't the greatest thing since sliced bread, his hype and the general nature of highly touted rookies will ensure that you will be able to recover the cost you paid to acquire him, or very close to it, via trade.

I was in and out of the Jonathan Stewart discussion, but he is actually the perfect case example of exactly what EBF was saying. Even 3 years into his career, after being stuck as a backup and dealing with a nagging recurring injury issue, Stewart could have been traded for at or near the same cost he would have taken to acquire prior to his rookie season.

Lastly, as EBF said, the odds that Richardson ends up in a situation as detrimental to fantasy football success as Jonathan Stewart are extremely, extremely small.

 
The thing is though, I don't care about his trade value. I care about his value to my team. I don't want to say "Well at least if I messed up and I think he sucks in a couple years other people will still take him off my hands..."

I want to just take proven production, less risk, and build my team well.

That's not to say I wouldn't take TR #1 in the rookie draft. I think I would in every league I'm in. Although, again, that goes to my "Draft QB/TE/WR and get RBs later" Year Two strategy.

 
The flipside of drafting "proven talent" is that the security of veteran players is offset by their lower longevity potential. Just to give you an example, a few years back I was doing a dynasty startup. Going into the draft, I planned to take Reggie Bush or MJD with my first pick, and Calvin Johnson with my second pick. As "luck" would have it, Brian Westbrook (this was back when he was still a ppg star) fell to my first pick. I took him. Randy Moss (fresh off his insane season with NE) fell to my second pick. I took him.

I decided to go against type and "take the points now" rather than picking younger, less established players. I made the playoffs in the first season, but Westbrook's value collapsed shortly thereafter and Moss became an albatross on my roster. I had to package him with a very good young player (Dwayne Bowe) just to get something decent back when I decided it was time to trade him. Needless to say, if I could do that draft over, I would take any combination of MJD/Bush/Calvin over what I got. It's been a couple years and this team is mired in the toilet, largely because of these decisions (ironically, I'm poised to land Richardson in that league as a result).

It's definitely possible to overvalue potential and future production in dynasty leagues, but it's also possible to overvalue past production. When you take Adrian Peterson and Tom Brady in a startup draft this year, you won't get any points for what they accomplished in the past several years. It's like my Moss example. Moss was a proven elite talent when I took him, but he was also on the back slope of his career. Mathematically, it was a huge mistake to take him where I did, even though he seemingly offered the "proven production" that you speak of. I could've had the 22 year old version of the same player if I had just trusted my evaluation, stuck with my initial plan, and taken Calvin Johnson.

The cruel truth of the matter is that by a time a player has proven himself to be an elite talent, he's likely already burned through a significant portion of his career. So if you take Ray Rice over Trent Richardson, you're probably getting the safer bet, but...if Richardson ends up being just as good, he'll actually have more value because you get his entire career. I'm not sure I would pass on Rice for Richardson because Rice is still pretty young and he carries huge trade value, but I certainly would've passed on Peterson for Richardson for this reason even if ADP hadn't been injured. The 22 year old elite back with his entire career in front of him is worth more than the 27 year old elite back with 1400 NFL carries worth of mileage. The security advantage you get with the older player is offset by the lower number of years left in the tank. So while a guy like Chris Johnson might give you more points than Richardson in 2012, who's more likely to be an elite back in 2015?

Having said that, there's more than one way to skin a cat. I know some owners who do quite well with the short-term style. It works for them. I've got no problem with that. But for me, I always seem to do better when I play the long-term game. Oddly enough, very few of my biggest dynasty regrets stem from me reaching for an unproven player that I had faith in. Almost all of those picks have worked out for me. It's when I've tried to play the "win now" game that I've been burned. For others, the reverse is probably true. So if you're more comfortable playing wait-and-see before you commit to a player, I've got no problem with that. At the same time, it's entirely possible to recognize elite assets before they obtain a truly elite price, and I think this is one way that owners can gain an edge. It's like the people who drafted Peterson in the first round of startups before his rookie year. It would've been easy to dismiss that as reckless, but it turned out to be a great pick.

And I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the importance of trade value. Trade value is the same thing as production because value can always be traded for points. Take Stewart as an example. Let's say he'll only score 100 points this next season. Well...if he has a high trade value then you might be able to trade him for a player who will score 200. So you can't just dismiss trade value. Fundamentally, trade value is points (unless you play in leagues where trades aren't allowed, which I doubt).

One of the reasons I like Richardson as a top 5 dynasty RB is because he looks like he'll be one of the most durable RB assets over the next few years. Players like Peterson, MJD, and Chris Johnson are going to fade as they continue to approach the dreaded 29-30 year old mark. Three years from now, Richardson will probably be just as valuable, if not more so, than he is today. Having a rock like that on your roster is a great thing for a dynasty team.

 
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Some people are claiming that it would take the #1 overall pick for them to trade Stewart, and I think very, very few people would even consider giving that up. Again, trade value isn't what you would ask for him, it is what someone else is willing to give you. Stewart isn't fetching anything near what his value was as a rookie in any of my leagues, I find it hard to believe you can get a 200 pt. RB for him. Neither is Reggie, Moreno, Mendy, Beanie, Best, Ingram, Crabtree, etc.

I agree, their value isn't going to fall as much as a 30 year olds would if they have a bad season, but their value can (and does) fall. If he goes out and has an Ingram-like season (which I highly doubt), no way will you be able to get #3 RB value for him next offseason. Don't get me wrong, I like him a lot and he should be the #1 pick in just about every rookie draft. I just don't agree that he'll hold his value regardless of how he does (which is probably moot since I expect he'll do well).

 
I guess the other reason I would never take Richardson is that it goes against my strategy in general in startups. I'm not taking a RB that early unless it's Rice and I absolutely can't trade down.

My ideal draft early is:

Calvin/Rodgers

Nicks/Fitz/Graham

Graham/Harvin/QB if I didn't get Rodgers

If I'm going to take an unproven guy that early, it's gonna be more of an A.J. Green type pick - who at least showed he has the ability to get it done in the NFL environment. I'd just rather have these other guys who are still very young (Fitz less so I guess) and much more proven than TR.

 
'Instinctive said:
That's great. I have to pay an early first for Stewart. Whoopee...I guess I won't own the guy who, after what 4 years...still hasn't taken the job, is aging, and only seems to have value when DeAngelo has been injured? And now with Cam as the best goal line option he has even less value?The people who have always had, and still have, Stewart on their roster are delusional. If you get one more good/useful season out of him after some DWill injuries, I'd be thanking my lucky stars.
First off, Cam Newton does not decrease Stewart's value. Yes, Newton vultured TDs this year (Stewart had 10, 11, 3, and 5 TDs in his 4 seasons). No, Newton is not likely to repeat this season's rushing TD performance. And while Stewart lost TDs to Newton, he made up for it with yards. Stewart's receiving yardage total went from 47, 139, and 103 all the way up to 413. Stewart scored almost exactly the same number of points last season as he scored as a rookie, he just did it in a different manner (300 more yards, 5 fewer TDs). That's a wash, even if his TDs don't rebound.Second... aging? Technically true- every player in the NFL is aging. At the same time, spectacularly misleading. Jonathan Stewart is three months younger than Ray Rice, a "young" and proven superstar who will get serious attention at the #1 overall pick in startups this offseason. Those that pass on Rice at the #1 overall might instead prefer to go with Arian Foster. Stewart is 6 months younger than Foster. Want to go with a couple of guys who would be in contention for the #1 pick if not for some injuries this season? Stewart's 3 months younger than Jamaal Charles, and five months older than Darren McFadden. Maybe you are a big Chargers homer and think Matthews has shown more in his 2 seasons than Stewart has shown in his 4. Stewart's only a month and a half older than Matthews. He's over a year younger than Forte. He's three and a half months younger than LeGarrette Blount. He's less than a year older than Demarco Murray. Demarco Murray! He may be "aging" in a technical/literal sense, but he's still ludicrously young.Here is a complete list of every single RB in the NFL who (a) is at least a year younger than Jonathan Stewart, and (b) has finished higher in his BEST season than Stewart has in his WORST season (34th, for those curious):LeSean McCoyJahvid BestBeanie WellsBen TateRoy HeluHow many of those 5 backs would you rather have than Stewart right now? McCoy is a no-brainer, but the other 4 are every bit as much stuck in a timeshare as Stewart is, except without the proven elite track record. It's not the Jonathan Stewart owners who are delusional. It's the people writing off a 24-year old former first round pick who already has a top-12 finish (and three top-25 finishes) and 4.8 career ypc. Despite crazy poor luck (as EBF mentioned, Carolina keeping and paying two elite RBs is pretty much unprecedented), Stewart still maintains phenomenal value.
 
Some people are claiming that it would take the #1 overall pick for them to trade Stewart, and I think very, very few people would even consider giving that up. Again, trade value isn't what you would ask for him, it is what someone else is willing to give you. Stewart isn't fetching anything near what his value was as a rookie in any of my leagues, I find it hard to believe you can get a 200 pt. RB for him. Neither is Reggie, Moreno, Mendy, Beanie, Best, Ingram, Crabtree, etc.

I agree, their value isn't going to fall as much as a 30 year olds would if they have a bad season, but their value can (and does) fall. If he goes out and has an Ingram-like season (which I highly doubt), no way will you be able to get #3 RB value for him next offseason. Don't get me wrong, I like him a lot and he should be the #1 pick in just about every rookie draft. I just don't agree that he'll hold his value regardless of how he does (which is probably moot since I expect he'll do well).
I actually think this is pretty wrong. There are countless examples of highly touted rookies, specifically running backs, that struggle in their first year, yet retain their exact same value. You use Ingram as an example to prove your point of players losing value, yet Ingram, despite what can be classified as a terrible rookie campaign from a fantasy football standpoint, currently carries just about identical value to what he had prior to this season. In any dynasty league that you owned Ingram in, you would likely find willing suitors who would give up the same kind of player or package of players that you could have gotten prior to the 1st game of 2011. Other recent examples are Reggie Bush, Darren McFadden, Cedric Benson, C.J. Spiller (this is actually the player that saw his value drop the most, yet he was STILL able to be traded for a relatively high price), Ryan Mathews, Jonathan Stewart, etc... I can go on, but the point is essentially EVERY highly drafted running back that had a disappointing 1st season was able to be moved for essentially the exact same price he would have cost prior to that disappointing season.The point is only amplified the more highly touted the rookie is. In Richardson's case, like I said before, there is practically zero scenarios that would see him lose value. It wouldn't matter if he started every game, gained 250 yards at 1.5 YPC and looked mediocre. There would absolutely be someone willing to take him off your hands for a very high price still. There are hardly any players you can find in a startup that provide that much stability in value.

Lastly, someone mentioned that they don't care about trade value and only want points for their lineup. I think that is a very backwards way to look at things. Sure points are nice in the short term, but in the end the team that has the most value on it, and is able to trade that and maximize it's potential to fill needs, ebb and flow with championship windows, etc.. will end up better and more successful. Trent Richardson is so valuable to a roster because he has a very good chance to produce high level production, or points, for your lineup. However, even if he doesn't, he will still be able to net you a different asset in a trade that WILL provide that production. This basically GUARANTEES you a high level of production by drafting Richardson, whether it's via Richardson or someone else after trading him. I'm not sure there are more than a handful of players that you can say that can provide that.

 
Some people are claiming that it would take the #1 overall pick for them to trade Stewart, and I think very, very few people would even consider giving that up. Again, trade value isn't what you would ask for him, it is what someone else is willing to give you. Stewart isn't fetching anything near what his value was as a rookie in any of my leagues, I find it hard to believe you can get a 200 pt. RB for him. Neither is Reggie, Moreno, Mendy, Beanie, Best, Ingram, Crabtree, etc.

I agree, their value isn't going to fall as much as a 30 year olds would if they have a bad season, but their value can (and does) fall. If he goes out and has an Ingram-like season (which I highly doubt), no way will you be able to get #3 RB value for him next offseason. Don't get me wrong, I like him a lot and he should be the #1 pick in just about every rookie draft. I just don't agree that he'll hold his value regardless of how he does (which is probably moot since I expect he'll do well).
I actually think this is pretty wrong. There are countless examples of highly touted rookies, specifically running backs, that struggle in their first year, yet retain their exact same value. You use Ingram as an example to prove your point of players losing value, yet Ingram, despite what can be classified as a terrible rookie campaign from a fantasy football standpoint, currently carries just about identical value to what he had prior to this season. In any dynasty league that you owned Ingram in, you would likely find willing suitors who would give up the same kind of player or package of players that you could have gotten prior to the 1st game of 2011. Other recent examples are Reggie Bush, Darren McFadden, Cedric Benson, C.J. Spiller (this is actually the player that saw his value drop the most, yet he was STILL able to be traded for a relatively high price), Ryan Mathews, Jonathan Stewart, etc... I can go on, but the point is essentially EVERY highly drafted running back that had a disappointing 1st season was able to be moved for essentially the exact same price he would have cost prior to that disappointing season.
EVERY highly drafted RB that has a disappointing first season can be moved for essentially the exact same price? That is simply not true. Ingram was pretty much the 1.01 consensus rookie pick last year, a few drafts had Green or Jones going first, but usually it was Ingram. I seriously doubt in any league I am in that the Ingram owner could now swap him for the 1.01 - he is not close to that value now. And as an example here is a recent Ingram trade from the off season dynasty trade thread (only from one league but it shows not everyone shares the opinion that Ingram's value is unchanged):

Posted 08 January 2012 - 02:00 PM

10 team 1 PPR Dynasty

Team A: receives M. Ingram

Team B: receives 1.10 2012 pick
Also, as a McFadden owner, I can tell you that his value took a real hit after his rookie season and I never got offers that were close to approaching what I had paid for him.And for what it is worth, staff member Matt Waldman has Ingram ranked at RB #25 in his dynasty rankings that just went up, it is obvious that he doesn't feel that Ingram has the exact same value as a year ago either.

 
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And I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the importance of trade value. Trade value is the same thing as production because value can always be traded for points. Take Stewart as an example. Let's say he'll only score 100 points this next season. Well...if he has a high trade value then you might be able to trade him for a player who will score 200. So you can't just dismiss trade value. Fundamentally, trade value is points (unless you play in leagues where trades aren't allowed, which I doubt).
That sounds good in theory, but I haven't seen a league yet where they award points during the season for trade value. From my Dynasty 101 class: The only year you can win is the one you are currently competing in.

Managing your team like a stock portfolio that emphasizes future trade value gives you a great looking team on paper for future years, but it won't win you a championship in the coming season, which is the only thing that any league pays money on.

 
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'squistion said:
'wdcrob said:
Stewart proves EBF's point. If you want him you'll have to pay an early first to get him. The only people who think he'll go for less don't actually own the guy. I'd have to get the 1.1 (Richardson) to move him for a pick.
Not true, I own him in one league and have gotten zero trade offers in the last year, so people haven't been exactly beating down my door to try to acquire him.
During this past season at week #2 in my 12 team PPR dynasty, I was able to trade for Jonathan Stewart by giving up TB Mike Williams. Edited to add: Correction, the trade went down on Oct. 5, 2011. That was week 5.
 
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Some people are claiming that it would take the #1 overall pick for them to trade Stewart, and I think very, very few people would even consider giving that up. Again, trade value isn't what you would ask for him, it is what someone else is willing to give you. Stewart isn't fetching anything near what his value was as a rookie in any of my leagues, I find it hard to believe you can get a 200 pt. RB for him. Neither is Reggie, Moreno, Mendy, Beanie, Best, Ingram, Crabtree, etc.

I agree, their value isn't going to fall as much as a 30 year olds would if they have a bad season, but their value can (and does) fall. If he goes out and has an Ingram-like season (which I highly doubt), no way will you be able to get #3 RB value for him next offseason. Don't get me wrong, I like him a lot and he should be the #1 pick in just about every rookie draft. I just don't agree that he'll hold his value regardless of how he does (which is probably moot since I expect he'll do well).
I actually think this is pretty wrong. There are countless examples of highly touted rookies, specifically running backs, that struggle in their first year, yet retain their exact same value. You use Ingram as an example to prove your point of players losing value, yet Ingram, despite what can be classified as a terrible rookie campaign from a fantasy football standpoint, currently carries just about identical value to what he had prior to this season. In any dynasty league that you owned Ingram in, you would likely find willing suitors who would give up the same kind of player or package of players that you could have gotten prior to the 1st game of 2011. Other recent examples are Reggie Bush, Darren McFadden, Cedric Benson, C.J. Spiller (this is actually the player that saw his value drop the most, yet he was STILL able to be traded for a relatively high price), Ryan Mathews, Jonathan Stewart, etc... I can go on, but the point is essentially EVERY highly drafted running back that had a disappointing 1st season was able to be moved for essentially the exact same price he would have cost prior to that disappointing season.The point is only amplified the more highly touted the rookie is. In Richardson's case, like I said before, there is practically zero scenarios that would see him lose value. It wouldn't matter if he started every game, gained 250 yards at 1.5 YPC and looked mediocre. There would absolutely be someone willing to take him off your hands for a very high price still. There are hardly any players you can find in a startup that provide that much stability in value.

Lastly, someone mentioned that they don't care about trade value and only want points for their lineup. I think that is a very backwards way to look at things. Sure points are nice in the short term, but in the end the team that has the most value on it, and is able to trade that and maximize it's potential to fill needs, ebb and flow with championship windows, etc.. will end up better and more successful. Trent Richardson is so valuable to a roster because he has a very good chance to produce high level production, or points, for your lineup. However, even if he doesn't, he will still be able to net you a different asset in a trade that WILL provide that production. This basically GUARANTEES you a high level of production by drafting Richardson, whether it's via Richardson or someone else after trading him. I'm not sure there are more than a handful of players that you can say that can provide that.
I guess we'll just agree to completely disagree. Ingram was the #1 pick last year, no one that I know would give up the #1 pick for him this year. I'm not talking theory, that you'd "likely" find suiters willing to pay the same value, I'm talking actually having it happen. I've found the exact opposite to be true- none of those guys were worth the same after they had disappointing seasons. Obviously I'm not saying their values took a nosedive right away, but they were certainly worth less. I've owned a few of these guys and traded for a few others in different leagues. Not a single one went for the same value.EBF said he'd take Richardson with a 1st round pick as RB 3. Obviously there is no way he's going to have a season as bad as your example, but if he did, there is zero chance you would be able to get top 3 RB value for him next year (or he'd still be drafted there in start ups). You don't really think that if he has 250 yards at 1.5 ypc next year, he'd still be a top 10 pick in start-ups, do you? Yes, you'll be able to get value for him, but there's a difference between "good" or "very high" value and the same value. Even if he fell to RB 8-10 in the 2nd or 3rd round, that's still very good value, but certainly less.

We're getting sidetracked here away from the discussion about Richardson, who I really like, but I'm pretty surprised that more than one person thinks his value just can't fall no matter what he does.

 
It's not the Jonathan Stewart owners who are delusional. It's the people writing off a 24-year old former first round pick who already has a top-12 finish (and three top-25 finishes) and 4.8 career ypc. Despite crazy poor luck (as EBF mentioned, Carolina keeping and paying two elite RBs is pretty much unprecedented), Stewart still maintains phenomenal value.
I was going to post something similar. Jonathan Stewart is far from an aging or washed up wasted away type player but instead very much a fantasy commodity. He is younger than Arian Foster and has been gently used. He has one year left on his contract with the Panthers and he is not turning 25 until March of this year.
 
Some people are claiming that it would take the #1 overall pick for them to trade Stewart, and I think very, very few people would even consider giving that up. Again, trade value isn't what you would ask for him, it is what someone else is willing to give you. Stewart isn't fetching anything near what his value was as a rookie in any of my leagues, I find it hard to believe you can get a 200 pt. RB for him. Neither is Reggie, Moreno, Mendy, Beanie, Best, Ingram, Crabtree, etc.

I agree, their value isn't going to fall as much as a 30 year olds would if they have a bad season, but their value can (and does) fall. If he goes out and has an Ingram-like season (which I highly doubt), no way will you be able to get #3 RB value for him next offseason. Don't get me wrong, I like him a lot and he should be the #1 pick in just about every rookie draft. I just don't agree that he'll hold his value regardless of how he does (which is probably moot since I expect he'll do well).
I actually think this is pretty wrong. There are countless examples of highly touted rookies, specifically running backs, that struggle in their first year, yet retain their exact same value. You use Ingram as an example to prove your point of players losing value, yet Ingram, despite what can be classified as a terrible rookie campaign from a fantasy football standpoint, currently carries just about identical value to what he had prior to this season. In any dynasty league that you owned Ingram in, you would likely find willing suitors who would give up the same kind of player or package of players that you could have gotten prior to the 1st game of 2011. Other recent examples are Reggie Bush, Darren McFadden, Cedric Benson, C.J. Spiller (this is actually the player that saw his value drop the most, yet he was STILL able to be traded for a relatively high price), Ryan Mathews, Jonathan Stewart, etc... I can go on, but the point is essentially EVERY highly drafted running back that had a disappointing 1st season was able to be moved for essentially the exact same price he would have cost prior to that disappointing season.
EVERY highly drafted RB that has a disappointing first season can be moved for essentially the exact same price? That is simply not true. Ingram was pretty much the 1.01 consensus rookie pick last year, a few drafts had Green or Jones going first, but usually it was Ingram. I seriously doubt in any league I am in that the Ingram owner could now swap him for the 1.01 - he is not close to that value now. And as an example here is a recent Ingram trade from the off season dynasty trade thread (only from one league but it shows not everyone shares the opinion that Ingram's value is unchanged):

Posted 08 January 2012 - 02:00 PM

10 team 1 PPR Dynasty

Team A: receives M. Ingram

Team B: receives 1.10 2012 pick
Also, as a McFadden owner, I can tell you that his value took a real hit after his rookie season and I never got offers that were close to approaching what I had paid for him.And for what it is worth, staff member Matt Waldman has Ingram ranked at RB #25 in his dynasty rankings that just went up, it is obvious that he doesn't feel that Ingram has the exact same value as a year ago either.
As a McFadden owner, I can tell you I received PLENTY of offers that were on par with what it cost to get him before his rookie season. There was all kinds of intrigue due to his 1 breakout game and the way injuries derailed much of his season. To say his value diminished significantly is revisionist history, in my opinion. I paid the 1.02 pick to acquire him (in a league in which someone was not a believer in him) and received offers up to a 1.02 pick and probably could have pushed for the 1.01 pick in a package deal. That seems like pretty equivalent value to me. McFadden's outlook didn't really begin to take a hit until after his 2nd season.As an Ingram owner, I can tell you I am receiving offers on par with what I paid to get him prior to the 2011 season. Is anyone offering the 1.01 rookie pick? No, but that has much, much more to do with the fact that Trent Richardson is in the draft than it does with Mark Ingram. In another league I am in, Ingram was recently traded in a package, with the central pieces being Ingram and the 1.02 rookie pick. I have seen a fair amount of trades along exactly those same lines. So, we have a player that had essentially the worst case scenario happen outside of injury- plagued in a 3 way timeshare (not just a split backfield), mediocre stats, and injury, yet the player was touted enough to maintain much of his value. There are tons of people that expect Ingram to be a star and think they are getting a fair deal offering the 1.02 this year.

My point is that you don't need the consensus value to remain exactly the same, you simply need 1 owner in any league you are in to remain a believer and want to acquire him. I will continue to argue that the consensus value of these players remains very high, and believe history will continue to show I'm right, but it's not a matter of consensus. It's a matter of having 1 person remain a believer in the pedigree, talent, etc... and the cases where that doesn't happen are incredibly few and far between.

Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, as I said before the more highly touted a prospect is, the more leeway he will have. Richardson is more touted than anyone since Adrian Peterson, which means his leash will be extremely long, much longer than any player since Peterson was drafted. The scenarios that involve Richardson's value taking a hit include injury, which you can never plan for, and the extremely unlikely scenario that whatever team he ends up on acquires another young, dynamic, top shelf talent at running back.

Anyway, we are mostly arguing in circles now at this point. I seem to have flipped from arguing against Richardson in the 1st round of a startup to arguing for him, which isn't my intent. I still wouldn't draft him in the 1st round. This is where the disconnect in this argument is happening- I don't think he carries RB #3 value now, so I don't expect you to be able to trade him for that after his 1st season if he disappoints. However, I do believe he is a top 10 RB and firmly believe you could still move him for a top 10 RB price even if his first season is disappointing. His bust proof value in his 1st year does add a significant and intriguing argument to the equation and wasn't something I was considering previously. Given the choice between Richardson and Ryan Mathews, I may now lean towards Richardson when I weight that factor in.

 
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'squistion said:
'wdcrob said:
Stewart proves EBF's point. If you want him you'll have to pay an early first to get him. The only people who think he'll go for less don't actually own the guy. I'd have to get the 1.1 (Richardson) to move him for a pick.
Not true, I own him in one league and have gotten zero trade offers in the last year, so people haven't been exactly beating down my door to try to acquire him.
During this past season at week #2 in my 12 team PPR dynasty, I was able to trade for Jonathan Stewart by giving up TB Mike Williams. Edited to add: Correction, the trade went down on Oct. 5, 2011. That was week 5.
Here are Mike Williams stats through the first 5 weeks:Week 1 - 4 catches 50 yards 1 TD

Week 2 - 1 catch -4 yards 0 TD

Week 3 - 5 catches 43 yards 0 TD

Week 4 - 5 catches 66 yards 0 TD

Week 5 - 4 catches 28 yards 0 TD

I am a Williams owner in one league and by that time (through the first 4 to 5 weeks) the handwriting was on the wall that perhaps he was going to have a sophmore slump. Hindsight is 20-20 but I think that tends to support my contention that Stewart didn't retain top trade value last year.

 
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'squistion said:
'wdcrob said:
Stewart proves EBF's point. If you want him you'll have to pay an early first to get him. The only people who think he'll go for less don't actually own the guy. I'd have to get the 1.1 (Richardson) to move him for a pick.
Not true, I own him in one league and have gotten zero trade offers in the last year, so people haven't been exactly beating down my door to try to acquire him.
During this past season at week #2 in my 12 team PPR dynasty, I was able to trade for Jonathan Stewart by giving up TB Mike Williams. Edited to add: Correction, the trade went down on Oct. 5, 2011. That was week 5.
Here are Mike Williams stats through the first 5 weeks:Week 1 - 4 catches 50 yards 1 TD

Week 2 - 1 catch -4 yards 0 TD

Week 3 - 5 catches 43 yards 0 TD

Week 4 - 5 catches 66 yards 0 TD

Week 5 - 4 catches 28 yards 0 TD

I am a Williams owner in one league and by that time (through the first 4 to 5 weeks) the handwriting was on the wall that perhaps he was going to have a sophmore slump. Hindsight is 20-20 but I think that tends to support my contention that Stewart didn't retain top trade value last year.
FWIW, my thoughts at the time were that Mike Williams was losing value quickly. As a DeAngelo owner for 2 years, I coveted Stewart and was absolutely thrilled to get him for TB Mike Williams whom I had drafted in the 2010 rookie draft at pick 4.08. Now maybe Mike Williams will turn it around and be a PPR asset if the Bucs right their ship, but I am thinking I got the better end of the deal with Stewart both as a young gifted RB and as the handcuff to DeAngelo.

 
Wouldn't calling Stewart Deangelo's handcuff sort of imply that Deangelo gets the majority of the opportunities currently, or is a valuable fantasy asset? They're part of a RBBC where one becomes VERY valuable if the other is hurt, but they're flex options at best when both healthy. That doesn't really scream "handcuff" to me.

 
Wouldn't calling Stewart Deangelo's handcuff sort of imply that Deangelo gets the majority of the opportunities currently, or is a valuable fantasy asset? They're part of a RBBC where one becomes VERY valuable if the other is hurt, but they're flex options at best when both healthy. That doesn't really scream "handcuff" to me.
You got it right - but I guess in my mind, regardless of what you call it, as a DeAngelo owner languishing in that RBBC situation, I am thinking my team is better off with Stewart than without him, and so his addition at the expense of losing TB Mike Williams, seems an overall improvement. Not to mention, I view Stewart as an exceptional and still relatively young talent at RB entering the prime of his career.Edited to fix errant adjective: exceptional

 
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It's not the Jonathan Stewart owners who are delusional. It's the people writing off a 24-year old former first round pick who already has a top-12 finish (and three top-25 finishes) and 4.8 career ypc. Despite crazy poor luck (as EBF mentioned, Carolina keeping and paying two elite RBs is pretty much unprecedented), Stewart still maintains phenomenal value.
I was going to post something similar. Jonathan Stewart is far from an aging or washed up wasted away type player but instead very much a fantasy commodity. He is younger than Arian Foster and has been gently used. He has one year left on his contract with the Panthers and he is not turning 25 until March of this year.
he only has real value in the next 2 year if he moves to another team or deangelo gets injured.Why wait on that. Been been waiting for him for years.And yes Id take blackmon before him in start ups.
 
With all this discussion, how would you rank the three of them in a dynasty? (Richardson, Stewart, Tate)
Just like that. Or do you mean overall?
I didn't necessarily mean overall. Just trying to start a discussion. Richardson is the youngest with an unknown situation. Tate not much older but behind an established starter. Stewart the oldest but in a timeshare with an injury-prone starter. If you have Foster, does Tate's value rise about either of the other two?
 
With all this discussion, how would you rank the three of them in a dynasty? (Richardson, Stewart, Tate)
Just like that. Or do you mean overall?
I didn't necessarily mean overall. Just trying to start a discussion. Richardson is the youngest with an unknown situation. Tate not much older but behind an established starter. Stewart the oldest but in a timeshare with an injury-prone starter. If you have Foster, does Tate's value rise about either of the other two?
I think Tate and Stewart are the same in terms of if the other guy on their trams go down they become a RB1 but both can be flex plays even if their situation stays the same. I give Stewart a higher ranking because of the chance he signs somewhere next year. I'm not sure what the contract situation is with Tate. I put Richardson higher based on hype and potential to be the main guy somewhere right from the start. If we see he lands in a spot behind an established starter then he becomes the new Stewart. In that we have to wait a few years for his value to be determined.
 
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In the light of the Richardson discussion and the contention that he is worth paying the same price for what would be an considered an established elite player, I found Matt Waldman's comments is his most recent dynasty rankings rather interestesting.

He was talking about QBs, not RBs, but in the explanatory note about Aaron Rodgers he also discussed his overall dynasty strategy (actually similar to mine in that he looks at a 2-3 year window timeframe) and made this remark when talking about acquiring an elite QB or TE:

I'm not talking about the draft because there are no proven, elite players in rookie drafts. There are only elite prospects. Sometimes there a huge difference between the two.
And that I think is the crux of the disagreement here, between those of us who see Richardson as just an elite prospect, versus those who view him as much more than that.
 
I think people really overrate just how safe non-rookie 1st and 2nd rounders wind up being in a dynasty startup. In the first two rounds of a dynasty startup, you have a choice between (1) rookies who haven't proven anything but have their whole career ahead of them, (2) young guys with a little bit of success and most of their career ahead of them, or (3) veterans who have repeatedly proven themselves to be studs, but whose careers are already half over. Yeah, guys from bucket #1 are riskier than guys from bucket #3... but guys from bucket #3 only last half as long as guys from bucket #1, and guys from bucket #2 wind up being a compromise but not an improvement (names like Kevin Jones, Steve Slaton, Roy Williams, Braylon Edwards, Michael Clayton, and Lee Evans spring immediately to mind. Demarco Murray is a great example for this season). Guys like Rice, McCoy, Calvin, and Rodgers are obvious no-brainer first rounders, but that combination of youth and track record is exceedingly rare. After you get past the first half dozen or so players, you have to start either taking swings on guys like Trent Richardson who have a higher bust potential, or settling for guys like Drew Brees who might only have 3-4 years left in the tank. I don't know if I'd go the full EBF and take Richardson as the third RB off the board, but I would certainly start thinking very strongly about him once I hit the late 1st to mid 2nd.

 
I think people really overrate just how safe non-rookie 1st and 2nd rounders wind up being in a dynasty startup. In the first two rounds of a dynasty startup, you have a choice between (1) rookies who haven't proven anything but have their whole career ahead of them, (2) young guys with a little bit of success and most of their career ahead of them, or (3) veterans who have repeatedly proven themselves to be studs, but whose careers are already half over. Yeah, guys from bucket #1 are riskier than guys from bucket #3... but guys from bucket #3 only last half as long as guys from bucket #1, and guys from bucket #2 wind up being a compromise but not an improvement (names like Kevin Jones, Steve Slaton, Roy Williams, Braylon Edwards, Michael Clayton, and Lee Evans spring immediately to mind. Demarco Murray is a great example for this season). Guys like Rice, McCoy, Calvin, and Rodgers are obvious no-brainer first rounders, but that combination of youth and track record is exceedingly rare. After you get past the first half dozen or so players, you have to start either taking swings on guys like Trent Richardson who have a higher bust potential, or settling for guys like Drew Brees who might only have 3-4 years left in the tank. I don't know if I'd go the full EBF and take Richardson as the third RB off the board, but I would certainly start thinking very strongly about him once I hit the late 1st to mid 2nd.
Without wanting to state the obvious too much the answer to me is have balance.I tend not to take guys that have proven nothing but shy away from older players altogether.My strategy is to aim for year two. Have a team that "could" perform well in year 1 but that will be all set to go by year 2. This is based partly on what EBF was saying in that the younger a player is the longer it takes for his value to drop.This leagues two years old but I took guys like Nicks, Matthews, Wells, Dez. If after the first year I'd not liked what I saw from them (matthews is a good example) I still could have got pretty good value for him. If I'd taken someone like MJD or Sjax there's no chance I'd have got good value last summer.
 

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