Ron_Mexico
I Love Doggies
I don't disagree with any of this.I'm making my point based on a fantasy football perspective only.
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Dynasty Rankings (9 Viewers)
- Thread starter Fear & Loathing
- Start date
Fear & Loathing
Footballguy
OK, so where would you rank him as a Dynasty QB?
Ron_Mexico
I Love Doggies
13thBreesCutlerPeytonBradyRiversRyanRodgersRomoEliSchaubMcNabbFlaccoBig BenI could make a case for Ben at 12 vaulting over Flacco,but I can't place him any higher than that at this time..
BeTheMatch
Footballguy
I'd say the additions of Moss and Welker had something to do with that.
Fear & Loathing
Footballguy
Make a case? Come on. Flacco's rookie season, while impressive, still pales in comparison to Big Ben's.I'd like to see a case made for Eli being ranked that high despite his 55.9% career completion rate.
Ron_Mexico
I Love Doggies
I knew I would take some heat for having Flacco that high.Harbaugh has had very tight reigns on Flacco. When he is let loose, I think he will put up some very nice numbers.I could drop Eli 2 spots and be totally fine with it.
Fear & Loathing
Footballguy
Right. And . . . ?
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Fear & Loathing
Footballguy
I like Flacco, too, but 'let loose' with the way Baltimore plays? Why would he have a better chance than Big Ben of throwing up 30 TDs in 2009 or 2010? I don't think it's even close.I could drop Eli 10 spots be totally fine with it.
Ron_Mexico
I Love Doggies
If that's all you got, then you must agree with me that Ben is not a top 10 FF QB.
Fear & Loathing
Footballguy
He's quite possibly the most underrated player in the NFL.
Ron_Mexico
I Love Doggies
The numbers say something very different.*04 14 gms 295 attempts 8.9 ypa 17 TDs and QB 20 ranking
*05 13 gms 268 attempts 8.9 ypa 17 TDs and QB 18 ranking
*06 15 gms 469 attempts 7.5 ypa 18 TDs and QB 12 ranking
*07 15 gms 404 attempts 7.8 ypa 32 TDs and QB 5 ranking
*08 16 gms 468 attempts 7.1 ypa 17 TDs and QB 17 ranking
*(courtesy of rzrback77)
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stevegamer
Footballguy
Impossible.#1. He's a QB.
#2. See #1.
#3. He's "won" a Super Bowl - something that only QB's do - you never hear anyone talking about any other position "winning" one the same way..
#4. He's the Steelers QB - a popular team.
Off the top of my head, London Fletcher is much more underrated, and it's not close.
Fear & Loathing
Footballguy
Not only possible, but almost a certainty.For the past few seasons, we have constantly seen QBs like Carson Palmer, Eli Manning, and other mentioned among the elite of the position. Big Ben's early career dwarfs theirs, yet he's never mentioned as one of the league's elite -- except by the few smart analysts in the biz.
He has a career passer rating of 90, a YPA average of 7.9, outstanding post-season numbers, and one of the best W/L records in history.
And a much inferior quarterback like Eli Manning gets a lot more love.
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Fear & Loathing
Footballguy
Anthony Borbely
Footballguy
Forgetting fantasy football for a minute, other than Peyton Manning and Brady, there is not another QB I would rather have than Ben if I wanted to win Super Bowls.
valhallan
Footballguy
Maybe Ben isn't put up with the elites, but that's only a function of his numbers. I don't think anyone underrates his ability to make plays and win. Seriously, are we watching the same games? The announcers fawn all over him. This isn't a guy playing in obscurity in Jacksonville... he's the quarterback of the Pittsburgh Steelers and seen on national TV several times per year. It's really a silly argument to say he's under-appreciated.
I would take Ben over Peyton and I absolutely despise the Steelers.
I would take Ben over Peyton and I absolutely despise the Steelers.
Fear & Loathing
Footballguy
I would take possibly Brady over Ben, and that's it. That's the list.
thriftyrocker
Footballguy
This is the elephant in the room no one is acknowledging. They get rid of Faneca. Two other starters get hurt. If you look at end of 06 and all of 07, he is a top 5 QB. I.E., long enough after his motorcycle accident, but before the oline disintegrated. Last couple games the oline has looked more consistent. But I'm not convinced all is fixed for next season. His 9 ranking is about right, although the Tier 2/3 diff is a little cloudy to me.Fear & Loathing said:
PlayaHata
Footballguy
RE: Big Ben
I think some of you guys are forgetting this is a dynasty ranking thread and not a NFL QB ranking thread. I love Big Ben as an NFL quarterback. He's tough, he can make all the throws, he's a leader, and he tends to play big in the big games. If I could pick any QB to lead a franchise into the Super Bowl, he'd be right near the top of the list.
That said, I don't see how some of can be so high on him in the FF world. 4 out of his 5 years in the NFL, he's been a QB2. Pittsburgh has always been a defense first, running first team. That MIGHT change somewhat in the coming years, but does anyone honestly believe that they're suddenly going to start throwing the ball 40 times a game with the personnel they have?
No matter how you slice it, opportunity matters. Players like Romo, Rivers, Rodgers (heck, even Eli, McNabb, and Schaub) have consistently scored better than Big Ben because they consistently throw the ball more.
Ben is consistently underrated as an NFL QB, but he's also overrated as a FF QB.
I think some of you guys are forgetting this is a dynasty ranking thread and not a NFL QB ranking thread. I love Big Ben as an NFL quarterback. He's tough, he can make all the throws, he's a leader, and he tends to play big in the big games. If I could pick any QB to lead a franchise into the Super Bowl, he'd be right near the top of the list.
That said, I don't see how some of can be so high on him in the FF world. 4 out of his 5 years in the NFL, he's been a QB2. Pittsburgh has always been a defense first, running first team. That MIGHT change somewhat in the coming years, but does anyone honestly believe that they're suddenly going to start throwing the ball 40 times a game with the personnel they have?
No matter how you slice it, opportunity matters. Players like Romo, Rivers, Rodgers (heck, even Eli, McNabb, and Schaub) have consistently scored better than Big Ben because they consistently throw the ball more.
Ben is consistently underrated as an NFL QB, but he's also overrated as a FF QB.
Fear & Loathing
Footballguy
We know exactly what kind of thread it is, but we reserve the right to discuss both NFL and fantasy connotations here. We've always talked about NFL value along with fantasy value, and I don't see that changing -- since it's very important in evaluating the stability of Dynasty value.I don't think we disagree that much on his value. I just think it's better to bet on an elite talent in a mediocre fantasy situation than it is to bet on a mediocore talent in a temporarily good fantasy situation.
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A
awesomeness
Guest
i dont think any franchise in the NFL would choose Roethlisberger before Peyton Manning. Put Peyton in as the QB for the Steelers and they'd be a dynasty.
Frank Costanza's Lawyer
Footballguy
Its probably too early to say at this point, but any ideas on what effect the firings of Gruden and Allen could have on Josh Johnson's upside in Tampa? I grabbed him in my rookie draft last season in the hope that he would become the Buc's starter within a few years, but is this regime change has me a little worried
Fear & Loathing
Footballguy
They already have a chance to be a dynasty with a QB who fits their defense/physicality approach to a T.I don't really get into the "no franchise in the NFL would choose . . ." talk because it's pointless. We heard the same thing about Reggie Bush over Mario Williams. We heard the same thing earlier in this thread that no franchise would take Adrian Peterson over Reggie Bush if they came out in the same year. I feel pretty comfortable with the fact that there are franchises that would prefer Big Ben, especially considering his age and playoff track record -- which is much more impressive than Peyton Manning's.
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A
awesomeness
Guest
Looking back i agree the "no franchise in the NFL would choose" statements are pointless. Though looking only at playoff track record doesn't tell the full story when your talking about who is the better QB. Ever since Roethlisberger has been on the Steelers they have had one of, if not the, best defense in the league. The Colts defense usually ranks roughly middle of the pack. Playoff success needs to be looked at, but its not the be all end all. Passing statistics are slightly more important imo.
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stevegamer
Footballguy
Actually, you helped make my point... regarding Eli:#1. He's a QB.
#2. See #1.
#3. He's "won" a Super Bowl - something that only QB's do - beating "the best team ever" (the undefeated Patriots) more recently than Ben won.
#4. He's the Steelers Giants QB - a popular team in NY - a huge media market.
So Eli has ALL of the hype factors I listed for Ben, except he's done them in splashier ways.
There's no question Roethlisberger is under-appreciated relative to some of his QB peers. However, he's a QB - being behind more highly hyped QB's doesn't make you underrated - just it means that other guys are overrated badly since 90% of success/failure goes to the QB.
Fear & Loathing
Footballguy
Is there really a way to keep up this conversation knowing that there is no agreed upon definition or criteria for "overrated/underrated"? I firmly believe Big Ben is the most underrated player in the league. If you want to call it under-appreciated instead, I'm fine with that. But I don't really want to get into semantics. I'll just go my own way here.
Fear & Loathing
Footballguy
Yeah, I think it's too early. Johnson is probably at least another year away from being ready to backup, and the Bucs will likely bring in a starter this offseason -- or keep Garcia now that Chucky is gone.
Ron_Mexico
I Love Doggies
I will say this, I don't think there is a player in the NFLwith a bigger gap between his NFL value and fantasy value than Big Ben.
.
So, in 2000, did you have Trent Dilfer ranked this high as well?Baltimore wins with defense....and I think we're pretty close to Flacco's ceiling right now.Ben has had a team carry him, and vice versa......Pitts defense excelled this year, ...the guy did not have to post huge numbers this year (I know, neither did flacco) however, I can't see where Flacco is a top 15 dynasty guy. It's way too early....You have him rated higher than Palmer? Again, i don't see it
King of the Jungle
Footballguy
9 games with less than 200 yards passing. 5 games with zero TD passes. Nobody has an argument that can convince me that he is a good FF QB.
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Fear & Loathing
Footballguy
Big Ben 
The difference in the game was the difference between Big Ben and Flacco.
And Ben's final line should have shown two more TDs (Santonio, Sweed) and 80 more yards.
The difference in the game was the difference between Big Ben and Flacco.
And Ben's final line should have shown two more TDs (Santonio, Sweed) and 80 more yards.
stevegamer
Footballguy
I can agree to just disagree on this one.Fear & Loathing said:
stevegamer
Footballguy
I think Brent Celek just punched LJ Smith's ticket out of town in Philly. Smith had the ticket, and was boarding the train. Smith, acted as the conductor, and took care of the rest.
Fear & Loathing
Footballguy
I agree. Celek was very impressive in the playoffs. He should be moving into that Top-15 area among Dynasty tight ends. Kudos to the guys pimping him here a few weeks ago. Even if he did go to my rival high school, he deserves a big bump . . .
Fear & Loathing
Footballguy
Fear & Loathing
Footballguy
Yes, Big Ben was awful in the Super Bowl. But he was masterful in knocking off the heavily favored Colts at Indy to get his team that far.
ConstruxBoy
Kate's Daddy
valhallan
Footballguy
I'm on your team, I'd take Ben over anyone. Just felt that we should all remember how bad he was in that Super Bowl while piling on the credit for winning it.
Fear & Loathing
Footballguy
Perhaps the Ravens game did the trick. I've noticed in today's national coverage that he's finally starting to get his just due for recognition as one of the best QBs in the NFL.
I thought NBCSports.com Tom Curran nailed it pretty well:
I thought NBCSports.com Tom Curran nailed it pretty well:
BeTheMatch
Footballguy
Could we just start a Roethlisberger thread or something? Good god.
Fear & Loathing
Footballguy
Right, because you have a lot of time and effort invested in this thread.
BeTheMatch
Footballguy
Well, the title is dynasty rankings, and I don't think there's anything but a pissing match over whether Ben is overrated or underrated on the last five pages.
Fear & Loathing
Footballguy
So go kick over somebody else's sandcastle and leave us alone if you don't like it.
valhallan
Footballguy
There are countless pissing matches on these forums, but sorry this Ben thing is far more of a discussion than some immature quote-fest. If you have something you'd like to discuss, then bring it up and people will chew on it. Read through this thread and you'll see it's littered with philosophical player discussions. I hope it stays that way.
perry147
Footballguy
stevegamer
Footballguy
The tip of Brent Celek happened within the last 5 pages, I think.
Soemtimes we go back & forth in here, but there's going to be a natural consolidation of talking about players on teams who are still playing, or have had something new happen to change situation.
