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Craig Biggio--Hall of Fame or Hall of Very Good? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter DCThunder
- Start date
Bob Sacamano
Footballguy
I'd bid $25 on him. If it didn't count as salary, of course.
ThisGuy
Ignored by Nipsey
I think you can use what's left over on the Patriots Salary Cap. Or did the Sox use it all up?
Polecat
Footballguy
You are so wrong. Biggio is a lock for the HOF. Is it time for him to retire? Yeah, after he gets 3000. He's been a very productive player for a long long time. Even the past couple of years, he's put up pretty good numbers. Yeah, he fades down the stretch, as his body can't hold up for 162 anymore. Still, that doesn't detract from his career numbers, which are very good. He played three positions, and was an All Star and Gold Glove winner at two of them. No way can you keep him out of the HOF.
Dt's Mules
Footballguy
Bill James thinks so and I'd be inclined to agree with him
Eephus
Footballguy
Biggio should be in.
Excellent, consistent, well rounded offensive numbers at a critical defensive position. According to Bill James, the second most valuable position player of the 90s.
He'll be hurt by comparison to ridiculous power numbers from the steroid era but there's no question he belongs in the HoF.
Excellent, consistent, well rounded offensive numbers at a critical defensive position. According to Bill James, the second most valuable position player of the 90s.
He'll be hurt by comparison to ridiculous power numbers from the steroid era but there's no question he belongs in the HoF.
RnR
Footballguy
This guy is a lock for the Hall. The only debate here is whether he'll be "first ballot" or not, which is fairly irrelevant IMHO.
Hov34
Eephus's Great Great Great Love Child
DBC Tweeker
Footballguy
Not to mention that he has hit more doubles than anyone else in history...
Absolute, stone-cold lock of the year.
Absolute, stone-cold lock of the year.
Of course I can't keep him out, I don't even have a vote. He was a very good player in his prime. But I don't see him as a first ballot, sure fire lock HOF material. He never even won an MVP award, or placed in the top 3 in MVP voting.For all of his hits, he's only a .283 lifetime hitter, and this may drop even further before he retires.He only won gold gloves at 2B, and I think that gg's are overrated anyway.19 years, only 7 all-star appearances (ZERO in the past 8 years)This is not exactly the resume of a first ballot hall of famer. This is a marginal guy, had a good long career, and about 6-7 years where he was excellent. If he ends up in the hall, good for Biggio. I will not gripe. Plenty of others in there that I didn't feel were deserving. But, still a few out that I think are more deserving. That's why we argue.
Hov34
Eephus's Great Great Great Love Child
I assume you meant more doubles than any "active" player.Top 10 Doubles:
Rank Player Doubles
1. Tris Speaker 792
2. Pete Rose 746
3. Stan Musial 725
4. Ty Cobb 724
5. George Brett 665
6. Nap Lajoie 657
7. Carl Yastrzemski 646
8. Honus Wagner 640
9. Craig Biggio 637
10. Hank Aaron 624
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MarshallRob
Footballguy
According to the Baseball Reference site the top 5 most similar batters to Craig Biggio at his current age are Joe Morgan, Paul Molitor, Cal Ripken, Brooks Robinson and George Brett. So it sure looks like his batting numbers are Hall of Fame worthy. On top of that he's got 4 Gold Gloves at an important defensive postion. The guy's overqualifed for the Hall. Yes, it would be nice if he'd done better in MVP voting over the years but he's exactly the kind of player who tends to get overlooked for that honor.
stevegamer
Footballguy
Biggio compares well to all of them since he plays a much harder position, and they need to hit signifacntly better than Biggio to be comps.He's a Hall of Famer.How do Dale Murphy, Don Mattingly and Biggio compare as far as hitting stats are concerned?(Think that will attract YankeeFan?)
David Yudkin
Footballguy
I'm not the biggest Biggio fan, as I never once watched him play and thought he was a lock HOFer. Not even once. If the stats over umpteen years get him in, so be it, but I always thought he was an above average player that played forever.By comparison, I'd put Roberto Alomar in way before Biggio (with 1550 fewer plate appearances than Biggio):.300/.371/.443474 SBs210 HRs2724 Hits12-time All Star10 Gold Gloves2 WS titlesHOF Monitor Score 193.5 (Biggio has a score of 145)
whoknew
Footballguy
Who is arguing that Alomar shouldn't be a HOF'er?And shouldn't longevity be a positive? NOT a negative?
ThisGuy
Ignored by Nipsey
Which is exactly why Derek Jeter needs to win the MVP award this year. Do it for the Biggio's of the world!!
Koya
Footballguy
Because his great intangibles were actually a negative in the clubhouse (re: A Rod) than helpful?It is somewhat ironic that the year Jeter puts the numbers up to finally get the award is also the year that if he was perhaps a better leader in some regards (and no, I dont "really" know all the details of the locker room, have to go off of the various info we hear in NY and some things from people I know who know a couple players on the team) then the most talented yankee of all could have produced a bit better and maybe that would have been enough to move the yanks forward.
Not blaming their loss in Jeter, but I dont want to hear about all the intangibles this particular year.
ETA: Now back to your regularly non hijacked program.
(and fwiw, im very much on the fence of Biggio. Have to examine the career and think about his place, the positions he played and his contemporaries.
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Koya
Footballguy
Checking out Biggio's stats, I don't quite see it.
I see only 4-5 HoF seasons.
OBP of .400 or more only 4 times.
AVG of .300 or more only 4 times.
SLG of .500 or more only 2 times (twice more above .480)
OPS+ of 140 or more only 2 times
OPS+ of 130 or more only 5 times
Yeah, he had some steals, but only 5 times over 30, only twice over 40 with a high of 50.
A lot of doubles, not that many HRs (though he had some pop).
Only 200 hits ONCE?
To be honest, I am feeling less enthusiastic now than I did before about Biggio's "greatness" - because I see a lot of goodness but that's it.
I see only 4-5 HoF seasons.
OBP of .400 or more only 4 times.
AVG of .300 or more only 4 times.
SLG of .500 or more only 2 times (twice more above .480)
OPS+ of 140 or more only 2 times
OPS+ of 130 or more only 5 times
Yeah, he had some steals, but only 5 times over 30, only twice over 40 with a high of 50.
A lot of doubles, not that many HRs (though he had some pop).
Only 200 hits ONCE?
To be honest, I am feeling less enthusiastic now than I did before about Biggio's "greatness" - because I see a lot of goodness but that's it.
ThisGuy
Ignored by Nipsey
I think what you are missing too is he spent the majority of his career as a 2B. If you compare him to Robin Yount (20 seasons) Biggio has more Runs, 2B, HR, SB, a higher OBP and SLG.I think this is a fair comparison since both played just as long, and both converted from the INF to the OF.If Yount is a HOFer, so is Biggio.3,000 hits is 3,000 hits.
ThisGuy
Ignored by Nipsey
What was Jeter to do, exactly? he couldn't hit for the guy in the clutch.
Koya
Footballguy
That fact is, Jeter at the least didnt exactly help smooth things out for his teamate - a teamate who has unreal talent and a very fragile ego. Unfortunately, Alex is one of those guys that is truly affected on the field when things arent going well off the field. His confidence can be (and was) broken. But, Jeter at the least didn't help and it is very possible he has made the situation that much more tenuous.Again, you cant blame Jeter for Arods issue's, but if everyone points how he is the great yank captain, then you have to hold him up to that standard - and for the first time imo, he really failed in that effort this year even if that was because of one player. But that Jeter - Arod relationship has always been a pointed one, and Jeter doesnt seem to much care to really help it go smoothly.What was Jeter to do, exactly? he couldn't hit for the guy in the clutch.
Koya
Footballguy
Oh, I fully know he is a 2B and must be looked at in that light.However, Yount was a two time MVP (at different positions!) in a terribly depressed offensive era who is a HoF, but not one of the all time greats, either. Bigs never even finished top 3 in the MVP race.Even when I consider his position, I cant justify him as a HoF at this point.
Robin Yount is a great comparison to Biggio.I'm an AL guy, so I watched Yount a lot, and I think Yount was a deserving HOF'er.If you look at aggregate numbers, Biggio beats him just about across the board.Yount was only a three time all star. But, Yount has not one but two MVP awards. A Hall of Famer is someone who is near the best of the game for an extended stretch of time. Winning MVP awards shows Yount wasn't only near the best, he WAS the best in the league.I think Biggio makes it, but there are others I'd rather see in before him.
David Yudkin
Footballguy
There have been other HOF threads and some feel Alomar shouldn't get in.As for longevity, I would rather see someone get 200 hits for 10 straight seasons (and retire) than have someone get 150 hits per year for 20 years. Sure, the second guy will end up with 1,000 more hits, but he likely was an average to above average player most of his career while the first guy was one of the tops in the game while he played.The closet example to this will be Ichiro, who has 1,354 hits in 6 years but is 33. So the odds are slim he'll play long enough to approach 3,000 hits. But there are a fair amount of players that will "automatically" be HOFers with 3,000 hits that will end up playing twice as long as Ichiro will (but might end up with only 500 more hits. (Ichiro could very well play long enough to garner serious HOF consideration in his own right, but he was the best example I could think of at the moment).I think one of the worst parameters for HOF evaluation is if PLAYER X hit certain milestones. The best example of this would be someone like Jim Rice. Rice needed to basically play 1/2 to 3/4 of another season to get to 400 HR, 1500 RBI, and 2500 hits. Qith a handful of seasons as a BELOW AVERAGE performer at OF, 1B, or DH he could probably have gotten to 500 HR, 2000 RBI, and 3000 hits. And he could have done so hitting .250, 20 HR, and say 70 RBI for a few extra years for padding. So I ask, should playing 6 extra years as a BELOW AVERAGE player IMPROVE a player's candidacy for the HOF? It obviously does, but it SHOULDN'T.The argue against Terrell Davis getting into the football HOF (at least made by some people) is that his career totals weren't good enough. But if he played another 3 years at say 800 rushing yards a year, that marginal perfromance level to bump up his totals would get him inducted? I understand the argument, but that makes very little sense to me--the worse you do, the better your chances are?As for Biggio, I thought at most points in his career there were several better players at the time he p;layed each position.When he was a catcher (88-91), there were guys like Gary Carter, Lance Parrish, Benito Santiago, Tony Pena, Mike Scoscia, Carlton Fisk, Bob Boone, Sandy Alomar, Terry Steinbach, etc.When he was a second baseman (92-02), there were players like Ryne Sandberg, Robby Thompson, Eric Young, Tony Womack, Jeff Blauser, Bret Boone, Jeff Kent, Fernando Vina, Eduardo Alfonzo, Luis Castillo, Jose Vidro, Robbie Alomar, Harold Reynolds, Alfonso Soriano, Ray Durham, Carlos Baerga, Tony Fernandez, Jose Offerman, Damien Easley, Chuck Knoblauch, Joey Cora, Franbk White, and probably a couple others had some years that approached Biggio's (or were better).And as an outfielder (03-06), the list of guys that were better is longer than I have space.Now, not all of these players will have career totals that will come close to Biggio's, but in all but a few seasons there were typically several guys that had betters numbers than Biggio did. I'm not sure Biggio was a Top 5 catcher in the few years he was behind the plate. I'm not sure year in and year out he was a Top 5 second basemen (although I would say the majority of the time he was). Certianly, he has not been a Top 5 outfielder. So Biggio's candidacy is based on being above average to very good for almost 20 years.If people want to put him in the HOF, put him in, as I don't think he is a terrible option. But I probably wouldn't vote for him and would need a fair amount or persuading to do so.
Weren't you the guy also saying that Frank Thomas shouldn't go in? I don't think your HOF standards are very realistic
AnonymousBob
Footballguy
To me he's Jerome Bettis of the baseball world. Very good for a very long period of time but not great. I'd gladly take him from his prime and put him on my baseball team but he doesn't belong in the HOF. The Hall should have very strict standards.
dawgtrails
Footballguy
If Biggio doesnt get in then the HOF is a joke.
Just because a guy doesnt win an MVP, or finish in the top 5, does not mean that he is undeserving. Second basemen should be allowed in the HOF too you know.
Just because a guy doesnt win an MVP, or finish in the top 5, does not mean that he is undeserving. Second basemen should be allowed in the HOF too you know.
Koya
Footballguy
When I examined the numbers, I realized that I was being pretty stupid. Thomas gets in.I am sorta the opposite with Biggio. The more I look at the numbers, the less impressed I am.
Koya
Footballguy
Agreed. But that doesnt mean you supress your standards to let 2B in.FWIW, Roberto Alomar should be in without question imo.
Man, if he had just one more year before just utterly falling off the table. I wonder if his eyesight just went. Hard to explain batting title to .250 hitter in a blink of an eye.
dawgtrails
Footballguy
What does "suppress your standards" mean?If you look at Biggio, compared to all other 2B in his era, he comes out as probably the second best behind Alomar.Agreed. But that doesnt mean you supress your standards to let 2B in.FWIW, Roberto Alomar should be in without question imo.
Man, if he had just one more year before just utterly falling off the table. I wonder if his eyesight just went. Hard to explain batting title to .250 hitter in a blink of an eye.
To me, that automatically makes him a HOFer.
dawgtrails
Footballguy
Plus, the dude gets hit by pitches alot. Thats cool.
Eephus
Footballguy
Ryne Sandberg is the most recent 2B to get inducted into the HoF. Biggio's stats compare well with Ryno's. Biggio's longevity will help him surpass almost all of Sandberg's. Sandberg will likely end up with career AVG and SLG numbers slightly higher than Biggio, but Biggio will have a large edge in OBP. Biggio only needs five more HBP to pass Hughie Jennings on the all-time list. Sandberg had more Gold Gloves and All-Star Game appearances, but Biggio is no slouch in either department.
One factor that hasn't been mentioned is the Astrodome. Biggio played his prime years there; the Astros didn't move to Enron Field until Biggio's age 34 season. Some of his 637 doubles would have gone over the fence in almost any other ballpark. That may not factor large with the voters but the Astrodome was a hitters graveyard that dramatically affected career stats for other Astros like Wynn, Cedeno and Staub.
HoF voting is a bit of a beauty contest. A soft factor in Biggio's favor is the fact that he spent his entire career with one team. This helped Yount and Sandberg.
One factor that hasn't been mentioned is the Astrodome. Biggio played his prime years there; the Astros didn't move to Enron Field until Biggio's age 34 season. Some of his 637 doubles would have gone over the fence in almost any other ballpark. That may not factor large with the voters but the Astrodome was a hitters graveyard that dramatically affected career stats for other Astros like Wynn, Cedeno and Staub.
HoF voting is a bit of a beauty contest. A soft factor in Biggio's favor is the fact that he spent his entire career with one team. This helped Yount and Sandberg.
Koya
Footballguy
Especially when you take into account the years/era, Ryne who was mentioned earlier is imo quite ahead of Biggio. Considerably more power - slugging and HRs.I can see the arguement for Biggio because he was one of the better 2B of his time, but that doesnt do it in my mind.What does "suppress your standards" mean?If you look at Biggio, compared to all other 2B in his era, he comes out as probably the second best behind Alomar.Agreed. But that doesnt mean you supress your standards to let 2B in.FWIW, Roberto Alomar should be in without question imo.
Man, if he had just one more year before just utterly falling off the table. I wonder if his eyesight just went. Hard to explain batting title to .250 hitter in a blink of an eye.
To me, that automatically makes him a HOFer.
He is certianly no Cupid Childs.
David Yudkin
Footballguy
I'm not so sure Biggio = Sandberg . . .Sandberg 10 consecutive All Star selections (in 16 seasons)Biggio 7 All Star selections (in 19 seasons)Sandberg 9 Gold GlovesBiggio 4 Gold GlovesSandberg MVP, Top 5 two other times, received votes in 6 seasonsBiggio Top 5 twice, received votes in 5 seasonsSandberg 7 Silver Slugger awardsBiggio 5 Silver Slugger awardsSandberg Top 10 in average 4 timesBiggio Top 10 in average 2 timesSandberg Top 10 OPS 6 timesBiggio Top 10 OPS 1 timeSandberg Top 5 in runs 8 timesBiggio Top 5 in runs 5 timesSandberg Top 10 in hits 8 timesBiggio Top 10 in hits 6 timesSandberg Top 5 in total bases 5 timesBiggio never in Top 5 in total basesSandberg Top 10 in HR 5 timesBiggio never in Top 10 in HRSandberg Top 10 in RBI 2 timesBiggio never in Top 10 in RBISandberg Top 5 in runs created 5 timesBiggio never in Top 5 in runs createdBiggio may have career totals that are on par with Sandberg's, but he's had almost 2700 more plate appearances to get there. Amd it doesn't appear on a year to year basis that he was as solid.
David Yudkin
Footballguy
And while we're at it, why is Biggio a lock and Lou Whittaker barely a vague memory for many people?
Biggio: .283/.367/.436
Whittaker: .276/.363/.426
Biggio: 2930 H/281 HR/1125 RBI
Whittaker: 2369 H/ 244 HR/1084 RBI
Biggio: 4 Gold Gloves
Whittaker: 3 Gold Gloves
Biggio: .283/.367/.436
Whittaker: .276/.363/.426
Biggio: 2930 H/281 HR/1125 RBI
Whittaker: 2369 H/ 244 HR/1084 RBI
Biggio: 4 Gold Gloves
Whittaker: 3 Gold Gloves
Eephus
Footballguy
If you apply the same test to Biggio vs. Whittaker as you did to Sandberg vs. Biggio the difference will be obvious. I think your top 5/top 10 season based analysis in the Sandberg post is a good one, the career numbers that Biggio will end with will push him over the top. He'll likely end up with more than 3000 Hs, over 1850 Rs, nearly 300 HRs and over 400 SBs.I'd stack Biggio's peak years against any post-Joe Morgan 2B. From 94-99, he was a consistently potent offensive force (in the Astrodome) and a Gold Glove fielder.
Koya
Footballguy
I just have Bigs at a very weak position, imo clearly behind Sandberg, Alomar and Kent.
dawgtrails
Footballguy
So being the 4th best second baseman of the last 20 years is not HOF worthy? And Biggio has better numbers than Kent anyhow.
snarfsnarf
Footballguy
Interesting debate. In regard to the whole "4th or 3rd best 2nd baseman in last 20yrs" arguement, I don't get it. Is 2nd base more difficult than short or 3rd? I personally would bucket those together. Why does Biggio benefit because better players went to play shortstop or 3rd? If he played catcher for the majority of his career I could see where playing that position would be more valuable.Overall I'm on the fence with him, numbers aren't overwhelming but longevity does count for something as well.
mlball77
Footballguy
Lou won a WS as well.Anyway, I think Biggio is likely HOF worthy, just probably not first ballot.
dawgtrails
Footballguy
Well, I tend to look at players at the position they play at. 2B has historically been a pretty lousy offensive position. When you are the best, or one of the best at your position it makes you that much more valuable. Value to me is a key component to HOF worthiness.So, I would not compare Biggio's numbers to third basemen. Maybe SS, because of the whole middle infield thing.
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