How does he not deserve it?Good, he doesn't deserve it.I think Palmeiro doesn't go either.Bonds will definitely go.
Minus roids, McCwire never hits 400 home runs....would never have sniffed the hall.If he is kept out it would be a travesty
The problem is Bonds biggest seasons are tainted.Good, he doesn't deserve it.I think Palmeiro doesn't go either.Bonds will definitely go.
But he'll still go, because almost everyone agrees that even without the roids, Bonds was a HOFer.The problem is Bonds biggest seasons are tainted.Good, he doesn't deserve it.I think Palmeiro doesn't go either.Bonds will definitely go.
1987 with 49 HRs down? How soon everyone forgets that he has always been a HR hitter, even in his rookie season. By the way, the "before" pictures for McGwire (it's a G not a C) are always from his 1987 year in which he set the rookie HR record.I for one still give the guy the benefit of the doubt. He was a hulk of a man who easily could have filled out with lots of hard work and the supplements he admitted to using. Barry Bonds and Palmiero were never as tall/big as McGwire was when they came into the league and it is obvious that they look out of proportion like Popeye.Oh well, I am sure I will get flamed, but I also believe that Clemens never used steroids because his work regimen was second to no one and he pretty much seems to have the same husky build he always has since his Texas days.Minus roids, McCwire never hits 400 home runs....would never have sniffed the hall.If he is kept out it would be a travesty
You have proof that he did roids??? I'll call the times...Minus roids, McCwire never hits 400 home runs....would never have sniffed the hall.If he is kept out it would be a travesty
Interesting, so did Barry set the rookie HR mark or did McGwire? If Bonds was putting up Tony Gwynn numbers with a lower average, say like Tim Raines with a bit more pop, would you say the same?Also, if Bonds still played in Pittsburgh instead of the West Coast, would you support him at all?But he'll still go, because almost everyone agrees that even without the roids, Bonds was a HOFer.The problem is Bonds biggest seasons are tainted.Good, he doesn't deserve it.I think Palmeiro doesn't go either.Bonds will definitely go.
congressional appearance down??You have proof that he did roids???Minus roids, McCwire never hits 400 home runs....would never have sniffed the hall.If he is kept out it would be a travesty
I'm not even a baseball fan but I remember hearing about how much of a power hitter McGuire was. Guy seemed to alwyas be bashing away...thus, the "Bash Brothers".1987 with 49 HRs down? How soon everyone forgets that he has always been a HR hitter, even in his rookie season. By the way, the "before" pictures for McGwire (it's a G not a C) are always from his 1987 year in which he set the rookie HR record.I for one still give the guy the benefit of the doubt. He was a hulk of a man who easily could have filled out with lots of hard work and the supplements he admitted to using. Barry Bonds and Palmiero were never as tall/big as McGwire was when they came into the league and it is obvious that they look out of proportion like Popeye.Oh well, I am sure I will get flamed, but I also believe that Clemens never used steroids because his work regimen was second to no one and he pretty much seems to have the same husky build he always has since his Texas days.Minus roids, McCwire never hits 400 home runs....would never have sniffed the hall.If he is kept out it would be a travesty
I don't remember him admitting to anything....If I recall correctly he took the 5th no?congressional appearance down??You have proof that he did roids???Minus roids, McCwire never hits 400 home runs....would never have sniffed the hall.If he is kept out it would be a travesty
Where exactly is the actual admission? I couldn't find it. He admitted using andro, so can you dispute that if he was just using supplements that he couldn't have bulked up that way?congressional appearance down??You have proof that he did roids???Minus roids, McCwire never hits 400 home runs....would never have sniffed the hall.If he is kept out it would be a travesty
It was a tense scene as Canseco sat at the same table as the players whose careers he helped tarnish. Canseco, the 1988 American League most valuable player, repeated his admission he used steroids during his playing days. Continue ArticleHe also told lawmakers that he couldn't fully answer their questions because of concerns his testimony could be used against him in the future trials. But that didn't prevent him from taking the odd shot at McGwire. "We've got to admit to certain things we've done," said Canseco, who wrote in his book he injected McGwire with steroids. "From what I'm hearing, I was the only person to use steroids. That's hard to believe." McGwire, who played with Canseco for seven years with the Oakland A's, said his lawyers advised him not to answer certain questions. "If a player answers, 'No,' he simply will not be believed," he said. "If he answers, 'Yes,' he risks public scorn and endless government investigations." Asked by Rep. Elijah Cummings whether he was asserting his Fifth Amendment right not to incriminate himself, McGwire said: "I'm not here to talk about the past. I'm here to be positive about this subject." Asked whether use of steroids was cheating, McGwire said: "That's not for me to determine." Choking back tears, he said that he would take on the role as a national spokesperson against steroids and discourage young athletes from using them. "What I will not do, however, is participate in naming names and implicating my friends and teammates," said McGwire, who ranks sixth in major-league history with 583 homers. "What anybody can do to improve it so that there's no more meetings like this. I'm all for it."
Plus Canseco was 6' or 6'1" and McGwire was somewhere around 6'4" to 6'6". McGwire had a bigger frame. He was never what I would consider a little guy and he didn't seem to all of a sudden, turn it on like Bonds, Sosa and Palmiero. McGwire starting as a HR hitter, set a rookie record and kept doing it. Even his rookie year, he had 33 HRs at the All-Star break and was on pace to break Maris' record. He only hit 16 in the second half, probably hitting the proverbial rookie wall.To say a guy with 49 HRs his rookie year would have only hit 400 HRs in his career is just silly. Dave Kingman had 442 HRs and I would say he wasn't as prolific a HR hitter as McGwire.I'm not even a baseball fan but I remember hearing about how much of a power hitter McGuire was. Guy seemed to alwyas be bashing away...thus, the "Bash Brothers".1987 with 49 HRs down? How soon everyone forgets that he has always been a HR hitter, even in his rookie season. By the way, the "before" pictures for McGwire (it's a G not a C) are always from his 1987 year in which he set the rookie HR record.I for one still give the guy the benefit of the doubt. He was a hulk of a man who easily could have filled out with lots of hard work and the supplements he admitted to using. Barry Bonds and Palmiero were never as tall/big as McGwire was when they came into the league and it is obvious that they look out of proportion like Popeye.Oh well, I am sure I will get flamed, but I also believe that Clemens never used steroids because his work regimen was second to no one and he pretty much seems to have the same husky build he always has since his Texas days.Minus roids, McCwire never hits 400 home runs....would never have sniffed the hall.If he is kept out it would be a travesty
If you stopped Bonds' career in 1997, which was the last year according to reports that he played without the juice, he'd already been a three-time MVP and an eight-time gold glover.But he'll still go, because almost everyone agrees that even without the roids, Bonds was a HOFer.The problem is Bonds biggest seasons are tainted.Good, he doesn't deserve it.I think Palmeiro doesn't go either.Bonds will definitely go.
Every Pro AthleteEvery Pro Athlete retired a few years and not working out daily as part of their job.Have you ever met a retired athlete in person? Some are big guys, but they sure seem to resemble normal people, especially guys in their late 30s/early 40s. They do not look like they used to be pro athletes.<1998>Mark McGwire</1998><2006>Mark McGwire</2006>
Steriods were considered illegal by law in 1992 (or 1993 i can't remember).Steriods were not banned until around 2002. He admitted he took andro before the hearing. Plus didn't a bunch of pitchers take roids as well? So therefore you can say it even out the playing field. With that being said McGwire should be in the hall of fame. Same with Pete Rose.
what does that tell you?Hopefully the same thing it's telling the voters.I don't remember him admitting to anything....If I recall correctly he took the 5th no?congressional appearance down??You have proof that he did roids???Minus roids, McCwire never hits 400 home runs....would never have sniffed the hall.If he is kept out it would be a travesty
Do people really need proof beyond a reasonable doubt to keep him out? The HOF is not a criminal court. Who's kidding who here?
How can you ban someone for something they never admitted to and that wasn't illegal at the time even if he did partake? Baseball community loves the kangaroo courts...what does that tell you?Hopefully the same thing it's telling the voters.I don't remember him admitting to anything....If I recall correctly he took the 5th no?congressional appearance down??You have proof that he did roids???Minus roids, McCwire never hits 400 home runs....would never have sniffed the hall.If he is kept out it would be a travesty
His non-admission was an admission in the eyes of the voters, I happen to agree with them.How can you ban someone for something they never admitted to and that wasn't illegal at the time even if he did partake? Baseball community loves the kangaroo courts...what does that tell you?Hopefully the same thing it's telling the voters.I don't remember him admitting to anything....If I recall correctly he took the 5th no?congressional appearance down??You have proof that he did roids???Minus roids, McCwire never hits 400 home runs....would never have sniffed the hall.If he is kept out it would be a travesty
If thats the case, they are dense...His non-admission was an admission in the eyes of the voters, I happen to agree with them.How can you ban someone for something they never admitted to and that wasn't illegal at the time even if he did partake? Baseball community loves the kangaroo courts...what does that tell you?Hopefully the same thing it's telling the voters.I don't remember him admitting to anything....If I recall correctly he took the 5th no?congressional appearance down??You have proof that he did roids???Minus roids, McCwire never hits 400 home runs....would never have sniffed the hall.If he is kept out it would be a travesty
Not ban, just not vote for an honor. While andro wasn't illegal (or even against the rules) while he was using it, steriods were illegal during the time he used them. No I cannot prove that he used steroids, but I fail to see why that's necessary. We are not trying to convict him of anything.How can you ban someone for something they never admitted to and that wasn't illegal at the time even if he did partake? Baseball community loves the kangaroo courts...what does that tell you?Hopefully the same thing it's telling the voters.I don't remember him admitting to anything....If I recall correctly he took the 5th no?congressional appearance down??You have proof that he did roids???Minus roids, McCwire never hits 400 home runs....would never have sniffed the hall.If he is kept out it would be a travesty
No you are just trying to keep him out of baseballs highest institution for something he never admitted to doing nor is there any proof he did...Not ban, just not vote for an honor. While andro wasn't illegal (or even against the rules) while he was using it, steriods were illegal during the time he used them. No I cannot prove that he used steroids, but I fail to see why that's necessary. We are not trying to convict him of anything.How can you ban someone for something they never admitted to and that wasn't illegal at the time even if he did partake? Baseball community loves the kangaroo courts...what does that tell you?Hopefully the same thing it's telling the voters.I don't remember him admitting to anything....If I recall correctly he took the 5th no?congressional appearance down??You have proof that he did roids???Minus roids, McCwire never hits 400 home runs....would never have sniffed the hall.If he is kept out it would be a travesty
Do you honestly think he didn't?Suppose I have a 3 scholarship to give away and I interviewed 10 or so of the best candidates. One of my questions is whether they ever cheated to get the good grades they got. One guy says to me: "I'm not going to talk about that."I choose not to give a scholarship to that guy bc I suspect, but cannot prove, that he cheated. Does that guy have a legit beef with me?No you are just trying to keep him out of baseballs highest institution for something he never admitted to doing nor is there any proof he did...Not ban, just not vote for an honor. While andro wasn't illegal (or even against the rules) while he was using it, steriods were illegal during the time he used them. No I cannot prove that he used steroids, but I fail to see why that's necessary. We are not trying to convict him of anything.How can you ban someone for something they never admitted to and that wasn't illegal at the time even if he did partake? Baseball community loves the kangaroo courts...what does that tell you?Hopefully the same thing it's telling the voters.I don't remember him admitting to anything....If I recall correctly he took the 5th no?congressional appearance down??You have proof that he did roids???Minus roids, McCwire never hits 400 home runs....would never have sniffed the hall.If he is kept out it would be a travesty
excellent analogyDo you honestly think he didn't?Suppose I have a 3 scholarship to give away and I interviewed 10 or so of the best candidates. One of my questions is whether they ever cheated to get the good grades they got. One guy says to me: "I'm not going to talk about that."I choose not to give a scholarship to that guy bc I suspect, but cannot prove, that he cheated. Does that guy have a legit beef with me?No you are just trying to keep him out of baseballs highest institution for something he never admitted to doing nor is there any proof he did...Not ban, just not vote for an honor. While andro wasn't illegal (or even against the rules) while he was using it, steriods were illegal during the time he used them. No I cannot prove that he used steroids, but I fail to see why that's necessary. We are not trying to convict him of anything.How can you ban someone for something they never admitted to and that wasn't illegal at the time even if he did partake? Baseball community loves the kangaroo courts...what does that tell you?Hopefully the same thing it's telling the voters.I don't remember him admitting to anything....If I recall correctly he took the 5th no?congressional appearance down??You have proof that he did roids???Minus roids, McCwire never hits 400 home runs....would never have sniffed the hall.If he is kept out it would be a travesty
If you are denying him the scholarship based on just that, yes I'd have a huge beef. You can't deny him the HOF just because you have a gut feeling he cheated.Do you honestly think he didn't?Suppose I have a 3 scholarship to give away and I interviewed 10 or so of the best candidates. One of my questions is whether they ever cheated to get the good grades they got. One guy says to me: "I'm not going to talk about that."I choose not to give a scholarship to that guy bc I suspect, but cannot prove, that he cheated. Does that guy have a legit beef with me?No you are just trying to keep him out of baseballs highest institution for something he never admitted to doing nor is there any proof he did...Not ban, just not vote for an honor. While andro wasn't illegal (or even against the rules) while he was using it, steriods were illegal during the time he used them. No I cannot prove that he used steroids, but I fail to see why that's necessary. We are not trying to convict him of anything.How can you ban someone for something they never admitted to and that wasn't illegal at the time even if he did partake? Baseball community loves the kangaroo courts...what does that tell you?Hopefully the same thing it's telling the voters.I don't remember him admitting to anything....If I recall correctly he took the 5th no?congressional appearance down??You have proof that he did roids???Minus roids, McCwire never hits 400 home runs....would never have sniffed the hall.If he is kept out it would be a travesty
I think you're kidding yourself. This is not merely a gut feeling, it's based on evading a direct question about cheating. Honestly, would you give the guy in my story a scholarship?It'd be one thing if you took Gordon Gekko's line, which would be more like I choose to vote for him in any event. Your need for 'proof' is just nuts. It's almost like you think the HOF is an entitlement.If you are denying him the scholarship based on just that, yes I'd have a huge beef. You can't deny him the HOF just because you have a gut feeling he cheated.Do you honestly think he didn't?Suppose I have a 3 scholarship to give away and I interviewed 10 or so of the best candidates. One of my questions is whether they ever cheated to get the good grades they got. One guy says to me: "I'm not going to talk about that."I choose not to give a scholarship to that guy bc I suspect, but cannot prove, that he cheated. Does that guy have a legit beef with me?No you are just trying to keep him out of baseballs highest institution for something he never admitted to doing nor is there any proof he did...Not ban, just not vote for an honor. While andro wasn't illegal (or even against the rules) while he was using it, steriods were illegal during the time he used them. No I cannot prove that he used steroids, but I fail to see why that's necessary. We are not trying to convict him of anything.
Travesty.Maybe they'll give Big Mac's votes to Jim Rice so can finally get in.
Yes you can. It's more a court of public opinion. If I'm a writer and just don't like a player, I don't have to vote for him. Example....Peter King and Art Monk.If you are denying him the scholarship based on just that, yes I'd have a huge beef. You can't deny him the HOF just because you have a gut feeling he cheated.Do you honestly think he didn't?No you are just trying to keep him out of baseballs highest institution for something he never admitted to doing nor is there any proof he did...Not ban, just not vote for an honor.How can you ban someone for something they never admitted to and that wasn't illegal at the time even if he did partake? Baseball community loves the kangaroo courts...what does that tell you?I don't remember him admitting to anything....congressional appearance down??You have proof that he did roids???Minus roids, McCwire never hits 400 home runs....would never have sniffed the hall.If he is kept out it would be a travesty
If I recall correctly he took the 5th no?
Hopefully the same thing it's telling the voters.
While andro wasn't illegal (or even against the rules) while he was using it, steriods were illegal during the time he used them. No I cannot prove that he used steroids, but I fail to see why that's necessary. We are not trying to convict him of anything.
Suppose I have a 3 scholarship to give away and I interviewed 10 or so of the best candidates. One of my questions is whether they ever cheated to get the good grades they got. One guy says to me: "I'm not going to talk about that."
I choose not to give a scholarship to that guy bc I suspect, but cannot prove, that he cheated. Does that guy have a legit beef with me?
Dave Kingman baby!Maybe they'll give Big Mac's votes to Jim Rice so he can finally get in.
Do we kick Mike Schmidt and Bob Gibson out of the Hall of Fame for admitting that they have no doubts that if steroids were available in their era they, and the vast majority of their peers would have used them? Do we believe Jose's accusations about illegal drug use in the clubhouse but ignore Jim Bouton's in a previous generation? What generation of baseball plyers didn't seek out substances legal and otherwise that would purportedly help their performance? Why does the generation that happened to have better drugs get singled out as cheaters for doing the same things as every other generation? What do we do in five years when the designer genes can be undetectably added to athletes DNA so they create their own performance enhancing edge?The HOF vote is a subjective vote by nature. You don't need "proof". This isn't a court of law. This is a vote of opinion, and part of that opinion is character and integrity. McGwuire should absolutely not be allowed in the HOF. There was nothing remarkable out him other than his power, and his power was, in my belief and obviously in the belief of the majority of the sports writers who have a HOF vote, artificially inflated because of steroids.Again: this is not a criminal case. We are not depriving him of life, liberty, or property. McGwuire still has millions of dollars and a big mansion and a name that will be remembered forever. All of that was acquired while cheating. All he is being deprived of is to stand among the greats of baseball in the Hall, and the writers have every right to not allow him that right if they believe that he cheated while he played. It has nothing to do with "admitting" it, you don't need a single failed drug test.
The HOF vote is a subjective vote by nature. You don't need "proof". This isn't a court of law. This is a vote of opinion, and part of that opinion is character and integrity. McGwuire should absolutely not be allowed in the HOF. There was nothing remarkable out him other than his power, and his power was, in my belief and obviously in the belief of the majority of the sports writers who have a HOF vote, artificially inflated because of steroids.Again: this is not a criminal case. We are not depriving him of life, liberty, or property. McGwuire still has millions of dollars and a big mansion and a name that will be remembered forever. All of that was acquired while cheating. All he is being deprived of is to stand among the greats of baseball in the Hall, and the writers have every right to not allow him that right if they believe that he cheated while he played. It has nothing to do with "admitting" it, you don't need a single failed drug test.
No.Do we kick Mike Schmidt and Bob Gibson out of the Hall of Fame for admitting that they have no doubts that if steroids were available in their era they, and the vast majority of their peers would have used them?
Evidently.Do we believe Jose's accusations about illegal drug use in the clubhouse but ignore Jim Bouton's in a previous generation?
This generation and all that come after it.What generation of baseball plyers didn't seek out substances legal and otherwise that would purportedly help their performance?
Because Mark McGwuire is up for the HOF and is from this generation.Why does the generation that happened to have better drugs get singled out as cheaters for doing the same things as every other generation?
Our best.Mark McGwuire is not a "generation". He is not a "representation". What did HE do? He doesn't get to hide behind everyone else that did them because he took them and he chose to step into the limelight when he put his name in the record books. He put himself on a seperate stage, and individual stage, and that is how he will be and should be evaluated when he comes up for consideration in to the Hall of Fame.Under the reasons you're implying above with your questions, since we haven't always been making a deal out of it, we can never make a big deal out of it. That of course is your opinion and you are entittled to it. But I disagree. Anyone who can be condemmed for using roids should be condemmed for using roids. I don't care if 9/10 of them get away with it.What do we do in five years when the designer genes can be undetectably added to athletes DNA so they create their own performance enhancing edge?
Why?Evidently.Do we believe Jose's accusations about illegal drug use in the clubhouse but ignore Jim Bouton's in a previous generation?
This and future generations haven't/won't seeked out performance enhancing drugsThis generation and all that come after it.What generation of baseball plyers didn't seek out substances legal and otherwise that would purportedly help their performance?
"'cause" isn't exactly an argumentBecause Mark McGwuire is up for the HOF and is from this generation.Why does the generation that happened to have better drugs get singled out as cheaters for doing the same things as every other generation?
Exactly what did he do that was not in the context of helping his team win games and his organization generate revenue? Exactly what did he do that, during his playing career was even frown upon by his employers, his teammates, or his peers. Jealous holier then thou fans and arrogant sports writers maybe.Mark McGwuire is not a "generation". He is not a "representation". What did HE do? He doesn't get to hide behind everyone else that did them because he took them and he chose to step into the limelight when he put his name in the record books. He put himself on a seperate stage, and individual stage, and that is how he will be and should be evaluated when he comes up for consideration in to the Hall of Fame.
Not only wasn't a big deal made of it, but the industry is accused of actively supporting and the very least profitting from it. Individuals doing their job shouldn't be scapegoats for the sins of their industry when being recognized for the jobs they did. I don't really care if there are rules for steroids and that these rules be enforced. But this holier then thou retroactive witch hunt is . McGwire's performance should be considered Hall Of Fame worthy when measures against his peers. If 9 out of 10 players used steroids then how exactly did McGwire benefit other then to keep up with the competition? If McGwire's alleged usage was against federal law then arrest him.Edited to fix quotes...Under the reasons you're implying above with your questions, since we haven't always been making a deal out of it, we can never make a big deal out of it.::Anyone who can be condemmed for using roids should be condemmed for using roids. I don't care if 9/10 of them get away with it
They are talking about Mark McGuire.I never heard of him either.Winston Wolfe said:<1998>Mark McGwire</1998><2006>Mark McGwire</2006>
No, because they didn't. Big difference between would've and did.Bottomfeeder Sports said:Do we kick Mike Schmidt and Bob Gibson out of the Hall of Fame for admitting that they have no doubts that if steroids were available in their era they, and the vast majority of their peers would have used them?
What is his crime against baseball again? How did he cheat the game by doing what it took to make him the best player he could be? Making himself into a reluctant star that was heavily marketed by the game.No, because they didn't. Big difference between would've and did.Bottomfeeder Sports said:Do we kick Mike Schmidt and Bob Gibson out of the Hall of Fame for admitting that they have no doubts that if steroids were available in their era they, and the vast majority of their peers would have used them?