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HBO - Song of Ice&Fire Series -Varsity Thread - no TV only whiners

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10 minutes ago, Stompin' Tom Connors said:

From what I read in other spheres of the internet, it would seem like a majority of viewers will be doing exactly that -- hate-watching the last episode. At the end of the day you are right - it has been phenomenal TV and the root cause of why these last two seasons (and esp. S8) have been met with such passion. But both sides have valid points - because it's such a great show, people do have the right to be disappointed in the much different trajectory in quality this show has taken, while still needing to be appreciative of how fantastic this series has been overall.

I wouldn't say that I'm hate watching, but the last two seasons have been so uneven and rushed that I am just waiting for it to be over/concluded.  Looking forward to Barry though.

Edited by Slapdash

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52 minutes ago, Stompin' Tom Connors said:

From what I read in other spheres of the internet, it would seem like a majority of viewers will be doing exactly that -- hate-watching the last episode. 

There’s certainly a significant online population that is doing just that, but I suspect that they constitute a relatively small minority of overall viewers. 

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On ‎5‎/‎17‎/‎2019 at 11:50 AM, FBG26 said:

Same. But I started reading them during winter break my first year of law school. I think I literally read 8-12 hours a day for like a month straight.  Now, with kids, it'd probably take 6-12 months to get through them all. 

:jawdrop:

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On 5/17/2019 at 11:50 AM, FBG26 said:

Same. But I started reading them during winter break my first year of law school. I think I literally read 8-12 hours a day for like a month straight.  Now, with kids, it'd probably take 6-12 months to get through them all. 

I got absolutely nothing else done those weeks, that's for sure. I was still going into the office back then too, and just sat there reading at my desk unless something was pressing.

By the end of that year, I had read all of those, Hobbit and all of the LOTR books, Shantaram which is like 1000 pages itself... I was never a recreational reader, but when I started, I picked some long books and read about 30 that year.

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How lame was it that they took Tyrion out of jail and he is the one they look to for wisdom?

And according to him the breaking the wheel = democracy.  Stupid

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I feel like the show hit all the major beats that GRRM intended but if he ever finishes the books (hahaha, I know) maybe it won’t feel so rushed and the characters/story will “earn” it more. For one quick example, maybe Bran actually contributes “something” to the defeat of the white walkers instead of just watching the battle from a few crow’s eyes and hanging out as bait.

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So if there is no night king....how do they defeat the dead? Who rides the undead dragon?? Cant all be tv show can it? 

Does lady stoneheart take out the freys? Does arya? Does lady stoneheart take berics role vs the undead? 

Does cersei/euron happen? Victarion? 

Im certain kl gets burnt....and bran ends up king and jon kills danny and wanders the north....

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1 hour ago, Buckna said:

I feel like the show hit all the major beats that GRRM intended but if he ever finishes the books (hahaha, I know) maybe it won’t feel so rushed and the characters/story will “earn” it more. For one quick example, maybe Bran actually contributes “something” to the defeat of the white walkers instead of just watching the battle from a few crow’s eyes and hanging out as bait.

Martin might be clever enough to provide a story "bad" outline HBO, let them finish the show poorly, then save the "good" story/ending for his books to appease us :nerd:s.
At this point, it's all I can hope for.

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22 hours ago, thecatch said:

There’s certainly a significant online population that is doing just that, but I suspect that they constitute a relatively small minority of overall viewers. 

Hate-watching - that's actually a good description of how I approached it.

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I feel like the books will build a connection between Jon Snow and the true north. Maybe via warging when he dies. Maybe via love for Ygritte and the wildlings. Maybe to protect the realm from the white walkers again at a later time. But something that makes it powerful that he ends up there rather than on the throne. 

I assume Bran wont be such a useless person with no human feelings prior to being elected king as well. 

Grrm will get us to 90% of the same places, but it will make more sense. 

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20 minutes ago, Leeroy Jenkins said:

I feel like the books will build a connection between Jon Snow and the true north. Maybe via warging when he dies. Maybe via love for Ygritte and the wildlings. Maybe to protect the realm from the white walkers again at a later time. But something that makes it powerful that he ends up there rather than on the throne. 

I assume Bran wont be such a useless person with no human feelings prior to being elected king as well. 

Grrm will get us to 90% of the same places, but it will make more sense. 

GRRM is not finishing the books - he does not know how to get there...

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The whole Howland Reed thing doesn't amount to anything I guess.

Edited by Gr00vus
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14 minutes ago, Sinn Fein said:

GRRM is not finishing the books - he does not know how to get there...

I think the shows passing him bogged down his style. I think Winds is almost done. Hopefully he gets on a roll after untying knots and A Dream of Spring comes out faster. 

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5 minutes ago, Leeroy Jenkins said:

I think the shows passing him bogged down his style. I think Winds is almost done. Hopefully he gets on a roll after untying knots and A Dream of Spring comes out faster. 

I mentioned this in the other thread, but to get to where the show ended from where Book 5 ends, it seems to me like it would take more than the two books he has planned. At least if he continues moving at the same pace the books have historically moved. 

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4 minutes ago, thecatch said:

I mentioned this in the other thread, but to get to where the show ended from where Book 5 ends, it seems to me like it would take more than the two books he has planned. At least if he continues moving at the same pace the books have historically moved. 

He'd have to really streamline closing out some of the plot lines he's started that don't seem that close to the trunk of the story to get it down to 2 books.

Edited by Gr00vus

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I mean let’s think about all the lines that didn’t make it into the show or that the show started on but didn’t finish properly that could impact the endings. 

Faceless man in citadel

sand snake at citadel

lady stone heart

whole Dorne thing 

young griff

jon snow lineage/warging

greyjoy brothers

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5 minutes ago, Leeroy Jenkins said:

I mean let’s think about all the lines that didn’t make it into the show or that the show started on but didn’t finish properly that could impact the endings. 

Faceless man in citadel

sand snake at citadel

lady stone heart

whole Dorne thing 

young griff

jon snow lineage/warging

greyjoy brothers

Varys/ illyrio was combined i guess.....

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Iron Bank kinda vanished.

Rickon in Skaagos.

Wyman Manderly getting even with Bolton.

Quaithe.

Edited by Gr00vus

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8 minutes ago, Thunderlips said:

Most of the book stuff can easily be folded into what we know from the show.   

 

Someone smarter than me please do it. 

 

 

Yea, you can kind of see where certain things morphed together but there are some major points that play into the more overarching stuff that was ignored completely. 

Edited by Leeroy Jenkins
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5 minutes ago, Abrantes said:

:lmao: Quaithe

I'd completely forgotten about that.

How can you forget Quaithe!?!? From Qarth even!?!?

And let's also not forget all the Mezmo Mo Sleestak characters from Mereen.

Daario of course - kicked to the curb for reals.

I kinda laughed at them bothering to identify Homeless Harry Strickland as the commander of the Golden Company in the show - the only point had to be gratifying/tweaking the book readers.

Edited by Gr00vus
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1 minute ago, Abrantes said:

:lmao: Quaithe

I'd completely forgotten about that.

I think she was in the show for a moment....then cut....

Nearly impossible to go verbatium with the books....or any books for that matter..... ths gist of the story played out...

I dont think stoneheart....the iron bank ....young griff....being gone make a big deal....

Hound v brienne and hound v mountain probably dont happen in the books....the show expanded brienne and the hounds role greatly

Sansa arc was good too...

Varys if you recall kills kevan lannister n pycelle...while illryio has tyrion across the sea

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If Euron was important enough to have him in the show (albeit in a different form)....I'd imagine he's REALLY important in the books.  Does he have the Dragon Binding Horn? If so, she could lose a dragon to him AND the wall still could be brought down by The Horn of Winter.  That would kind of get past two sticking show points. 

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2 hours ago, Leeroy Jenkins said:

I mean let’s think about all the lines that didn’t make it into the show or that the show started on but didn’t finish properly that could impact the endings. 

Faceless man in citadel

sand snake at citadel

lady stone heart

whole Dorne thing 

young griff

jon snow lineage/warging

greyjoy brothers

It’s been awhile since I read it but the whole Stannis arc seemed to be pretty different in the books too. I recall him being much more savvy and not the type to burn his daughter alive. 

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I do find myself hoping that LIttlefinger and Varys go out much differently in the books than they did on the show. They neutered the heck out of those two the last few seasons.

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17 minutes ago, Gr00vus said:

I do find myself hoping that LIttlefinger and Varys go out much differently in the books than they did on the show. They neutered the heck out of those two the last few seasons.

True. And, if we're talking adaptation choices, they ruined Tyrion. 

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4 minutes ago, Uruk-Hai said:

True. And, if we're talking adaptation choices, they ruined Tyrion. 

Probably - I'm not sure where things were going to go with him in the books either though. I'd like to think he'll put in a better showing there.

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8 minutes ago, Gr00vus said:

Probably - I'm not sure where things were going to go with him in the books either though. I'd like to think he'll put in a better showing there.

I think he was clearly going to get a redemption arc, and likely not going to be made out to be a bumbling idiot down the stretch. If Bran is going to sit on the throne with Tyrion giving the speech, I'm guessing Martin won't spend a couple of books telling us how stupid he has become.

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2 minutes ago, jplvr said:

I think he was clearly going to get a redemption arc, and likely not going to be made out to be a bumbling idiot down the stretch. If Bran is going to sit on the throne with Tyrion giving the speech, I'm guessing Martin won't spend a couple of books telling us how stupid he has become.

I think he's still in a tricky spot narrative wise being Dany's adviser (I'm assuming that he fills that role in the books too to some degree). There's going to be some sort of falling out at some point, and the question will be how Martin executes it - Tyrion making stupid mistakes, or realizing earlier she's cracked and working against her regaining the throne? I hope we find out.

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13 hours ago, Gr00vus said:

I think he's still in a tricky spot narrative wise being Dany's adviser (I'm assuming that he fills that role in the books too to some degree). There's going to be some sort of falling out at some point, and the question will be how Martin executes it - Tyrion making stupid mistakes, or realizing earlier she's cracked and working against her regaining the throne? I hope we find out.

I think he would/will not be written as a dumb. D&D chose to empower certain types of characters more than others like Jon and Tyrion who were written as dimwits for a while.  

I’m doubtful about finding out. I was hopeful we would get some sort of announcement out of Martin already. Rumors that he’s working hard to get out the next book will probably result in another preview chapter being released from some POV character never used previously. 

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I didn't buy Dany's heel turn one bit.   Should have been foreshadowed much more.  She basically decided to throw everything away because her smoking hot consort/lesbo lover was killed?  

Edited by Sabertooth

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Grrm had a nice blog post. He is working on a million things which makes me worry, but he also said “winter is coming” so I think we are close to Winds being ready. He estimated 5000 manuscript pages between both remaining books. 

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1 hour ago, Sabertooth said:

I didn't buy Dany's heel turn one bit.   Should have been foreshadowed much more.  She basically decided to throw everything away because her smoking hot consort/lesbo lover was killed?  

Is it a straight heel turn though? She becomes less Charles Xavier and more Magneto (she realizes that her ends totally justify any means she needs to accomplish them).....but I don't think she's become irredeemable.  

 

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2 hours ago, Sabertooth said:

I didn't buy Dany's heel turn one bit.   Should have been foreshadowed much more.  She basically decided to throw everything away because her smoking hot consort/lesbo lover was killed?  

There wasn't time in the TV series, and probably won't be time in the books either.

 

The plot calls for Daenerys to bring her Dragons to Winterfell to fight for the living - so, at least until that point, she will be portrayed as the heroine, who we are all rooting for - because we have overlooked her vindictive actions in the past.  Its not until she sees Jon as a threat to the throne that she will show her vindictiveness towards characters we also identify as "heros".  Even in the books, there probably is not a lot of time between Winterfell and Kings Landing.  We may get more detailed insights into her thoughts if she has a POV chapter, or we may see them via Sansa/Arya/Jon - or even Samwell.

 

I do think that with the show out of the way, all of Daenerys' actions will be scrutinized a bit more in the books, and with the benefit of hindight, it will be easier to spot that she was always a bit flawed.

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1 hour ago, Thunderlips said:

Is it a straight heel turn though? She becomes less Charles Xavier and more Magneto (she realizes that her ends totally justify any means she needs to accomplish them).....but I don't think she's become irredeemable.  

 

Her look at Cersei right before her burning of the city was one of hate and anger, not resignation.  That signified emotion over logic or altruism to me.  

Edited by Sabertooth

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14 minutes ago, Sabertooth said:

Her look at Cersei right before her burning of the city was one of hate and anger, not resignation.  That signified emotion over logic or altruism to me.  

I guess I'm having a harder time just accepting that what she did is just out of Targ craziness. Stannis was going to destroy the city. Robert went to war and sacked the city. Cersei was using the citizens as a shield.  For a story that very much seems to accept the idea that people of power have to do unsavory things to accomplish their goals (noble or immoral).....just reducing her to "crazy" isn't that interesting.

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4 minutes ago, Thunderlips said:

I guess I'm having a harder time just accepting that what she did is just out of Targ craziness. Stannis was going to destroy the city. Robert went to war and sacked the city. Cersei was using the citizens as a shield.  For a story that very much seems to accept the idea that people of power have to do unsavory things to accomplish their goals (noble or immoral).....just reducing her to "crazy" isn't that interesting.

It's kind of insulting actually.  Like the crazy chick! 

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D&D said post-episode that it wasn't planned, and on the wall Dany decided to "make it personal".  Not sure how to take that.  Not crazy, not planned, and not really a conqueror sacking a city.  

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18 hours ago, thecatch said:

It’s been awhile since I read it but the whole Stannis arc seemed to be pretty different in the books too. I recall him being much more savvy and not the type to burn his daughter alive. 

I could definitely see him burning his kid in the book.

18 hours ago, Gr00vus said:

I do find myself hoping that LIttlefinger and Varys go out much differently in the books than they did on the show. They neutered the heck out of those two the last few seasons.

Pretty sure Varys was neutered well before the first episode.

 

3 hours ago, Sabertooth said:

I didn't buy Dany's heel turn one bit.   Should have been foreshadowed much more.  She basically decided to throw everything away because her smoking hot consort/lesbo lover was killed?  

Yeah, even avid book readers weren't buying a Dany heel turn when ADWD was released.

18 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

D&D said post-episode that it wasn't planned, and on the wall Dany decided to "make it personal".  Not sure how to take that.  Not crazy, not planned, and not really a conqueror sacking a city.  

Piss poor job by D&D IMO.

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1 hour ago, Sinn Fein said:

There wasn't time in the TV series, and probably won't be time in the books either.

 

The plot calls for Daenerys to bring her Dragons to Winterfell to fight for the living - so, at least until that point, she will be portrayed as the heroine, who we are all rooting for - because we have overlooked her vindictive actions in the past.  Its not until she sees Jon as a threat to the throne that she will show her vindictiveness towards characters we also identify as "heros".  Even in the books, there probably is not a lot of time between Winterfell and Kings Landing.  We may get more detailed insights into her thoughts if she has a POV chapter, or we may see them via Sansa/Arya/Jon - or even Samwell.

 

I do think that with the show out of the way, all of Daenerys' actions will be scrutinized a bit more in the books, and with the benefit of hindight, it will be easier to spot that she was always a bit flawed.

I liked Dinklage's speech to Jon, basically we cheered her previous ruthless actions because they were against evil men and basically overlooked how ruthless they were. Based on her experiences, anyone that sides with or tolerates a tyrant is equally as guilty. In Mereen and all the other cities she slaughtered the Masters and sacked the city, anyone that wasn't a slave was guilty. When she gets to King's Landing there may not be any slaves but there are thousands of people in her opinion that are tolerating Cersei's rule despite her being an obvious tyrant and madwomen. Since they weren't willing to rise up and support her they were just as guilty as Cersei. I think you can see this attitude better expressed by Grey Worm talking about the free men Lannister soldiers, IIRC he expressed the same feelings he did in a prior episode that he did just before executing those soldiers about how someone who was free and chose to fought on the other side were equally as guilty.

As for D&D saying she just made a snap decision, bleh. First thing I said when they were planning the attack and Tyrion tells her about the Bells, she tells Greyworm "you will know what to do" or something like that, I turned to my wife and said "she's gonna torch them all anyway."

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