Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
Moe Green

Philip Rivers Is Terrible

Recommended Posts

The bolded comment intself is worth a discussion. The point isn't that they are better because of those 2 people. They're better because of less change at both positions. First off, the change at QB set them back. Rivers needs 2-3 years to develop. That's normal for QB development in the NFL. Brees had just turned the corner and was a great asset for this team at their most critical position. Take away a vet at QB and add a first year starter and you are going to have set backs. The timing was bad because the development of the team demanded a season QB to lead them. Not a first year starter.

There wasn't a setback. 14-2 down?

Then after losing both coordinators, they fire the HC. So now you have no stability at QB, HC or either of the coordinator positions. Those changes is what is hurting them IMO. It was predicitable that they would not have aa good a year as they did last year due to all the change in itself. Just by having Brees they may have been able to manage their way through due the impact of the QB play. But that much change is asking for problems.

Brees isn't exactly lighting it up for the Saints this year. I really don't see how anyone can point to this season as absolute proof that Brees is better than Rivers.

That is why I criticized AJ. I felt the decisions made to effect these changes were not in the best interest of winning games, but rather in his best interests. Funny thing is, those decisions may be what gets him fired. If they don't get things turned around he may find himself a victim of his own changes.

Why would any general manger's best interest not be to win games? Common sense would dictate that the more games a team wins the more secure his job would be.
You asked a great question about the GM. It would be interesting to see your answer to this question and then explain the moves AJ made the last 2 years. How in the world does getting rid of Marty and Brees help this team win? How does putting a first year QB in help win now? I can't wait to hear your response.As to your comment about Brees, does he have the talent around him that SD has? No he doesn't. If he did I'm confident he would be performing much better.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The bolded comment intself is worth a discussion. The point isn't that they are better because of those 2 people. They're better because of less change at both positions. First off, the change at QB set them back. Rivers needs 2-3 years to develop. That's normal for QB development in the NFL. Brees had just turned the corner and was a great asset for this team at their most critical position. Take away a vet at QB and add a first year starter and you are going to have set backs. The timing was bad because the development of the team demanded a season QB to lead them. Not a first year starter.

There wasn't a setback. 14-2 down?

Then after losing both coordinators, they fire the HC. So now you have no stability at QB, HC or either of the coordinator positions. Those changes is what is hurting them IMO. It was predicitable that they would not have aa good a year as they did last year due to all the change in itself. Just by having Brees they may have been able to manage their way through due the impact of the QB play. But that much change is asking for problems.

Brees isn't exactly lighting it up for the Saints this year. I really don't see how anyone can point to this season as absolute proof that Brees is better than Rivers.

That is why I criticized AJ. I felt the decisions made to effect these changes were not in the best interest of winning games, but rather in his best interests. Funny thing is, those decisions may be what gets him fired. If they don't get things turned around he may find himself a victim of his own changes.

Why would any general manger's best interest not be to win games? Common sense would dictate that the more games a team wins the more secure his job would be.
You asked a great question about the GM. It would be interesting to see your answer to this question and then explain the moves AJ made the last 2 years. How in the world does getting rid of Marty and Brees help this team win? How does putting a first year QB in help win now? I can't wait to hear your response.As to your comment about Brees, does he have the talent around him that SD has? No he doesn't. If he did I'm confident he would be performing much better.
Rivers last year played better than Brees ever had with the Chargers. The improved quarterback play (especially in not turning the ball over) lead to more wins. Brees has already played with the same weapons that Rivers has over his career. He did not put better numbers during that time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This guy needs to watch film of Joe Montana and take some notes.

Groovus, as an i-friend I am going to suggest that you lighten up a little bit. This shtick is getting dangerously close to the thread about how Calvin Johnson is a bust because he isn't duplicating Randy Moss' production as a rookie.
I think I should clarify here. I'm rooting for Rivers. I want this guy to be the franchise QB for the foreseeable future. I'm not expecting him to be Joe Montana, I brought Montana up because I think he's THE blueprint for what a QB should be, and would be an excellent case study for any QB who hopes to lead his team to a championship, particularly in the psychological makeup department. Rivers would stand to gain quite a bit from taking him as an example. I'm harping, incessantly, on Rivers's obvious flaws because if they don't get corrected to a decent extent, he's not going to make it and it'll therefore be tough for the team to win it all with him at QB. I've seen no progress this year, none and he's really struggled at least half the time. He's had good numbers when they've played teams whose defenses are poor or were in disarray at the time. That's the reality of the situation. Maybe Turner gave him too much to learn too fast, but whatever the reason the kind of play he's evidenced so far this season isn't going to cut it if it continues long term.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know I've had my share of mis-reading a post but I didn't say or suggest he decided to get rid of the coordinators. I said he decided (or he and Spanos) to fire Marty and get rid of Brees. As for the money, not sure where the cap number is but they aren't they under? If so then your point is off a bit. Besides, teams pay injured players every year. They heal and play again. It happens all the time. And if they were that concerned about his health, then why offer him any money at all? They just wanted him if they could get him cheap. IOW-they weren't interested in paying him fair market money. AJ tried the saame thing with Gates. That was a costly mistake as well. Now there are reports that they are so cheap that they don't want to fire Norv because they don't want to pay 2 x-coaches. lolBTW-where did they spend all that money they saved on Brees?But if you think those decisions were in the best interest of the Chargers winning then I guess you're happy with the results. Because outside of the changes I mentioned, this is the same team.What I find interesting about this thread is that some want to pin the problems on Rivers. Some on the line. Some on the D. Isn't it interesting that it seems it's everyone's fault but AJ's. When they were winning with Marty and Brees, it was because of AJ. Now that they having troubled times, it's everyones fault but AJ's. Simply amazing the way some Charger fans see things.

The Chargers have pretty consistently spent up to the cap number for quite some time. However, they do a pretty good job managing their future cap, so each year they start out significantly below the cap. The Chargers as an organization have shown that they are willing pay players based on performance on the field (see LT). And you are wrong about Antonio Gates. The Chargers (and AJ) had no problem paying him big time money (which they are), they just wanted him to sign the tender and get into camp while they negotiated his new contract.As far as Brees goes, what did he win while he was a Charger? One division title. No playoff wins. I don't think losing Brees has hurt this team nearly as much as you suggest. In fact, the Chargers have a pretty decent chance to finish this year at 11-5. That would match the team's best record under Brees.BTW, the Chargers have used the money saved by not signing Brees to extend the contracts of or resign many of their starters (Jammer and Dielman being two prime examples).As far as not wanting to fire Norv because they don't want to pay 2 ex coaches, that is pure speculation by writers who have column space to fill. I am sure that the Chargers don't want to pay 2 ex coaches, but I don't think that would stop them if they felt they really needed to make a change.As far as this Chargers fan is concerned, I don't blame anybody for their inability to match expectations this year. I think the expectations for this team were set too high. This is a team that has gone 11-5, 9-7, 14-2 the last three years, and will end up somewhere between 9-7 and 11-5 this year. It would appear to me that this is nominally a 10-6 or 11-5 team that either overachieved or benefited from a soft schedule last year, and is playing about to their talent level this year.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As far as this Chargers fan is concerned, I don't blame anybody for their inability to match expectations this year. I think the expectations for this team were set too high.

Moreover, it's not like they've already failed to win Super Bowl XLII. All of this talk of blame for a bad season might seem silly in February. It might not, but let's wait and see.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As far as not wanting to fire Norv because they don't want to pay 2 ex coaches, that is pure speculation by writers who have column space to fill. I am sure that the Chargers don't want to pay 2 ex coaches, but I don't think that would stop them if they felt they really needed to make a change.

:thumbdown: Quick, give me the name of one NFL franchise that is hoping to pay for ex-coaches.FM = :rolleyes:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As far as not wanting to fire Norv because they don't want to pay 2 ex coaches, that is pure speculation by writers who have column space to fill. I am sure that the Chargers don't want to pay 2 ex coaches, but I don't think that would stop them if they felt they really needed to make a change.

:D Quick, give me the name of one NFL franchise that is hoping to pay for ex-coaches.FM = :rolleyes:
Not smart but I consider the source. Typical well thought posts. Once again you have demonstarted your superior intellect.Funny how when I refer to articles or national media pundits about the Chargers I hear comments like they don't what they're talking about. I also here from some of you that Acee is the local expert and is "in the know" so to speak. In fact it was Maurile that has stated Acee is the Charger expert. I know some have hold him in high regard. Now you want to dismiss his reports about the Chargers not wanting to fire Norv to avoid paying ex-coaches. Sounds about right. :rolleyes:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As far as not wanting to fire Norv because they don't want to pay 2 ex coaches, that is pure speculation by writers who have column space to fill. I am sure that the Chargers don't want to pay 2 ex coaches, but I don't think that would stop them if they felt they really needed to make a change.

:loco: Quick, give me the name of one NFL franchise that is hoping to pay for ex-coaches.FM = :loco:
Not smart but I consider the source. Typical well thought posts. Once again you have demonstarted your superior intellect.Funny how when I refer to articles or national media pundits about the Chargers I hear comments like they don't what they're talking about. I also here from some of you that Acee is the local expert and is "in the know" so to speak. In fact it was Maurile that has stated Acee is the Charger expert. I know some have hold him in high regard. Now you want to dismiss his reports about the Chargers not wanting to fire Norv to avoid paying ex-coaches. Sounds about right. :rolleyes:
Actually, it was Trotter who said that, not Acee. But Trotter is a Charger expert as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know I've had my share of mis-reading a post but I didn't say or suggest he decided to get rid of the coordinators. I said he decided (or he and Spanos) to fire Marty and get rid of Brees. As for the money, not sure where the cap number is but they aren't they under? If so then your point is off a bit. Besides, teams pay injured players every year. They heal and play again. It happens all the time. And if they were that concerned about his health, then why offer him any money at all? They just wanted him if they could get him cheap. IOW-they weren't interested in paying him fair market money. AJ tried the saame thing with Gates. That was a costly mistake as well. Now there are reports that they are so cheap that they don't want to fire Norv because they don't want to pay 2 x-coaches. lol

BTW-where did they spend all that money they saved on Brees?

But if you think those decisions were in the best interest of the Chargers winning then I guess you're happy with the results. Because outside of the changes I mentioned, this is the same team.

What I find interesting about this thread is that some want to pin the problems on Rivers. Some on the line. Some on the D. Isn't it interesting that it seems it's everyone's fault but AJ's. When they were winning with Marty and Brees, it was because of AJ. Now that they having troubled times, it's everyones fault but AJ's. Simply amazing the way some Charger fans see things.

The Chargers have pretty consistently spent up to the cap number for quite some time. However, they do a pretty good job managing their future cap, so each year they start out significantly below the cap. The Chargers as an organization have shown that they are willing pay players based on performance on the field (see LT). And you are wrong about Antonio Gates. The Chargers (and AJ) had no problem paying him big time money (which they are), they just wanted him to sign the tender and get into camp while they negotiated his new contract.

1. The Chargers are no where near their cap from what I've seen. They are about middle of the road on payroll.

2. You are not accurate about Gates. They did not want to deal in a fair way and he held out for a fair market deal. Aj played hardball when he realized he couldn't bully Gates and in doinf so he cost the team, again. Of course in the end he paid Gates. Gates gave a little and AJ gave a little. But that could of been done before AJ put the Chargers in abd situation. Clearly his actions were not in the Chargers best interest.

As far as Brees goes, what did he win while he was a Charger? One division title. No playoff wins. I don't think losing Brees has hurt this team nearly as much as you suggest. In fact, the Chargers have a pretty decent chance to finish this year at 11-5. That would match the team's best record under Brees.

Your point on Brees is skewed to make it appear their decision was warrented. I'm surprised you said that. Didn't think I would have to make this point to you. With any QB there is a development process. Brees had just turned the corner and was proving himself. The talent on this team was not fully assembled while Brees was developing. Parts were being added along the way. In some cases (Gates for example) parts were missing at times due to AJ's hardball tatics. I'm sure that missing Gates for training and gametime didn't help the Chargers in their efforts to improve and improve. But Brees did continue to improve, didn't he? River OTOH-had the benefit of a fully loaded team to step into. This is hardly a similar situation. And if you are seriously suggesting that this year's team is asgood as it was last year then you must be smoking something. Have you seen them play? Have you read the comments in this thread questioning what's wrong? I really do not expect they will go far in the playoffs. The only way they do is if they somehow turn things around in a dramatic fashion.

BTW, the Chargers have used the money saved by not signing Brees to extend the contracts of or resign many of their starters (Jammer and Dielman being two prime examples).

You could also say that they made those deals on the new cap money they had to work with. Fact is they are just avg in spending their money. The big deal some have made here on the big savings of letting Brees leave just doesn't add up. Some make different excuses like he was hurt so why would they weant him? And yet they made an insulting low ball offer that came off contradictory. Doesn't add up either.

As far as not wanting to fire Norv because they don't want to pay 2 ex coaches, that is pure speculation by writers who have column space to fill. I am sure that the Chargers don't want to pay 2 ex coaches, but I don't think that would stop them if they felt they really needed to make a change.

So you're saying Acee isn't a viable source? Maurlie would disagree with you. Either that or all the other arguments made based on his reports are bogus I guess. :loco:

As far as this Chargers fan is concerned, I don't blame anybody for their inability to match expectations this year. I think the expectations for this team were set too high. This is a team that has gone 11-5, 9-7, 14-2 the last three years, and will end up somewhere between 9-7 and 11-5 this year. It would appear to me that this is nominally a 10-6 or 11-5 team that either overachieved or benefited from a soft schedule last year, and is playing about to their talent level this year.

I agree that expectations were too high. But for different reasons. I noticed to avoid the issue created by AJ's changes. I can only assume by your responses so far and failure to address my main point, that you think these moves by AJ were good ones. So you think the following to be true:

1. Letting Brees go was the best thing to help this team win now.

2. Playing hardball with star players like Gates sends a positive message to the rest of the team that we want you to help us win. So long as we can lowball you.

3. If you get injired I'm not going to want any longer. See Brees.

4. If I don't you I will argue with you, take away your authority and not support you in your efforts to build a winning team. See Marty.

So these types of decisions have led to numerous changes that have stopped their progress. Their performance so far this year proves that to be true. Unless you want to suggest the LT was lying in his SI interview that things are an issue. You only need to step back from the AJ is god perspective and see and hear what's happening.

They're still good but they could be doing so much better if AJ hadn't made some of these decisions. Pretty simple really.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As far as not wanting to fire Norv because they don't want to pay 2 ex coaches, that is pure speculation by writers who have column space to fill. I am sure that the Chargers don't want to pay 2 ex coaches, but I don't think that would stop them if they felt they really needed to make a change.

:rant: Quick, give me the name of one NFL franchise that is hoping to pay for ex-coaches.

FM = :hot:

Not smart but I consider the source. Typical well thought posts. Once again you have demonstarted your superior intellect.

Funny how when I refer to articles or national media pundits about the Chargers I hear comments like they don't what they're talking about. I also here from some of you that Acee is the local expert and is "in the know" so to speak. In fact it was Maurile that has stated Acee is the Charger expert. I know some have hold him in high regard. Now you want to dismiss his reports about the Chargers not wanting to fire Norv to avoid paying ex-coaches. Sounds about right. :lmao:

Actually, it was Trotter who said that, not Acee. But Trotter is a Charger expert as well.
I thought Acee made the comments as well. But in any case, it's becoming clear that Acee has his own concerns as expressed here:

http://www.signonsandiego.com/sports/charg...25chargers.html

But the fact remains that high on the list of reasons the Chargers have underperformed to this point is that they have a leadership void. Not one of the dozen players queried in recent weeks denied that Turner seems to lack the ability to inspire players by word or deed. All also concurred that there are players who have not responded to Turner's quiet style of leadership. Despite the seeming accuracy of General Manager A.J. Smith's assessment this week that in the Chargers' locker room “there are a lot of good character guys who are leaders,” the fact is the team misses the fire and attention to detail provided by Marty Schottenheimer.

But hey, if other's said it it must be true. Right?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That is why I criticized AJ. I felt the decisions made to effect these changes were not in the best interest of winning games, but rather in his best interests. Funny thing is, those decisions may be what gets him fired. If they don't get things turned around he may find himself a victim of his own changes.

And this is why people take your opinions on the Chargers with a grain of salt. AJ's interests are directly tied to the interests of the Chargers winning games. To suggest otherwise is laughable.Sure the Bolts would love to have kept Drew Brees AND their coordinators and Marty. Unfortunately, keeping Drew Brees meant paying ~ $10M to an injured QB while you have a high first round pick on the bench who can replace Brees and allow you to spend the $10M elsewhere to improve the team.And AJ didn't decide to give the Dolphin and Cowboy head coaching gigs to his coordinators. To suggest that AJ decided to make those changes is ridiculous.
I know I've had my share of mis-reading a post but I didn't say or suggest he decided to get rid of the coordinators. I said he decided (or he and Spanos) to fire Marty and get rid of Brees. As for the money, not sure where the cap number is but they aren't they under? If so then your point is off a bit. Besides, teams pay injured players every year. They heal and play again. It happens all the time. And if they were that concerned about his health, then why offer him any money at all? They just wanted him if they could get him cheap. IOW-they weren't interested in paying him fair market money. AJ tried the saame thing with Gates. That was a costly mistake as well. Now there are reports that they are so cheap that they don't want to fire Norv because they don't want to pay 2 x-coaches. lolBTW-where did they spend all that money they saved on Brees?But if you think those decisions were in the best interest of the Chargers winning then I guess you're happy with the results. Because outside of the changes I mentioned, this is the same team.What I find interesting about this thread is that some want to pin the problems on Rivers. Some on the line. Some on the D. Isn't it interesting that it seems it's everyone's fault but AJ's. When they were winning with Marty and Brees, it was because of AJ. Now that they having troubled times, it's everyones fault but AJ's. Simply amazing the way some Charger fans see things.
All I know is that when I moved to Cali in 2003 the organization was in shambles and that the team, at least on paper, has improved every year. AJ didn't exactly have the easiest job in the world but he's helped make it so the Chargers aren't the laughingstock of the NFL.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As far as not wanting to fire Norv because they don't want to pay 2 ex coaches, that is pure speculation by writers who have column space to fill. I am sure that the Chargers don't want to pay 2 ex coaches, but I don't think that would stop them if they felt they really needed to make a change.

:link: Quick, give me the name of one NFL franchise that is hoping to pay for ex-coaches.FM = :yes:
Not smart but I consider the source. Typical well thought posts. Once again you have demonstarted your superior intellect.Funny how when I refer to articles or national media pundits about the Chargers I hear comments like they don't what they're talking about. I also here from some of you that Acee is the local expert and is "in the know" so to speak. In fact it was Maurile that has stated Acee is the Charger expert. I know some have hold him in high regard. Now you want to dismiss his reports about the Chargers not wanting to fire Norv to avoid paying ex-coaches. Sounds about right. :rolleyes:
I notice that you didn't answer the question. If your nonsensical rantings and refusal to take into consideration what almost every other person says on a subject weren't so hilarious, I think I'd have to put you on ignore.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That is why I criticized AJ. I felt the decisions made to effect these changes were not in the best interest of winning games, but rather in his best interests. Funny thing is, those decisions may be what gets him fired. If they don't get things turned around he may find himself a victim of his own changes.

And this is why people take your opinions on the Chargers with a grain of salt. AJ's interests are directly tied to the interests of the Chargers winning games. To suggest otherwise is laughable.Sure the Bolts would love to have kept Drew Brees AND their coordinators and Marty. Unfortunately, keeping Drew Brees meant paying ~ $10M to an injured QB while you have a high first round pick on the bench who can replace Brees and allow you to spend the $10M elsewhere to improve the team.And AJ didn't decide to give the Dolphin and Cowboy head coaching gigs to his coordinators. To suggest that AJ decided to make those changes is ridiculous.
I know I've had my share of mis-reading a post but I didn't say or suggest he decided to get rid of the coordinators. I said he decided (or he and Spanos) to fire Marty and get rid of Brees. As for the money, not sure where the cap number is but they aren't they under? If so then your point is off a bit. Besides, teams pay injured players every year. They heal and play again. It happens all the time. And if they were that concerned about his health, then why offer him any money at all? They just wanted him if they could get him cheap. IOW-they weren't interested in paying him fair market money. AJ tried the saame thing with Gates. That was a costly mistake as well. Now there are reports that they are so cheap that they don't want to fire Norv because they don't want to pay 2 x-coaches. lolBTW-where did they spend all that money they saved on Brees?But if you think those decisions were in the best interest of the Chargers winning then I guess you're happy with the results. Because outside of the changes I mentioned, this is the same team.What I find interesting about this thread is that some want to pin the problems on Rivers. Some on the line. Some on the D. Isn't it interesting that it seems it's everyone's fault but AJ's. When they were winning with Marty and Brees, it was because of AJ. Now that they having troubled times, it's everyones fault but AJ's. Simply amazing the way some Charger fans see things.
All I know is that when I moved to Cali in 2003 the organization was in shambles and that the team, at least on paper, has improved every year. AJ didn't exactly have the easiest job in the world but he's helped make it so the Chargers aren't the laughingstock of the NFL.
:lmao:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As far as not wanting to fire Norv because they don't want to pay 2 ex coaches, that is pure speculation by writers who have column space to fill. I am sure that the Chargers don't want to pay 2 ex coaches, but I don't think that would stop them if they felt they really needed to make a change.

:goodposting: Quick, give me the name of one NFL franchise that is hoping to pay for ex-coaches.FM = :wub:
Not smart but I consider the source. Typical well thought posts. Once again you have demonstarted your superior intellect.Funny how when I refer to articles or national media pundits about the Chargers I hear comments like they don't what they're talking about. I also here from some of you that Acee is the local expert and is "in the know" so to speak. In fact it was Maurile that has stated Acee is the Charger expert. I know some have hold him in high regard. Now you want to dismiss his reports about the Chargers not wanting to fire Norv to avoid paying ex-coaches. Sounds about right. ;)
I notice that you didn't answer the question. If your nonsensical rantings and refusal to take into consideration what almost every other person says on a subject weren't so hilarious, I think I'd have to put you on ignore.
I don't answer stoopid questions and it's a stoopid question and you looked silly for even asking it. Now you look even more silly for bringing it up again. So I'll leave it to you to answer seeing as you are the only one concerned about it.Oh, and please put me on ignore. You usually don't add any value to this discussion so maybe that would be the best thing you could do for all of us. Please.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That is why I criticized AJ. I felt the decisions made to effect these changes were not in the best interest of winning games, but rather in his best interests. Funny thing is, those decisions may be what gets him fired. If they don't get things turned around he may find himself a victim of his own changes.

And this is why people take your opinions on the Chargers with a grain of salt. AJ's interests are directly tied to the interests of the Chargers winning games. To suggest otherwise is laughable.Sure the Bolts would love to have kept Drew Brees AND their coordinators and Marty. Unfortunately, keeping Drew Brees meant paying ~ $10M to an injured QB while you have a high first round pick on the bench who can replace Brees and allow you to spend the $10M elsewhere to improve the team.And AJ didn't decide to give the Dolphin and Cowboy head coaching gigs to his coordinators. To suggest that AJ decided to make those changes is ridiculous.
I know I've had my share of mis-reading a post but I didn't say or suggest he decided to get rid of the coordinators. I said he decided (or he and Spanos) to fire Marty and get rid of Brees. As for the money, not sure where the cap number is but they aren't they under? If so then your point is off a bit. Besides, teams pay injured players every year. They heal and play again. It happens all the time. And if they were that concerned about his health, then why offer him any money at all? They just wanted him if they could get him cheap. IOW-they weren't interested in paying him fair market money. AJ tried the saame thing with Gates. That was a costly mistake as well. Now there are reports that they are so cheap that they don't want to fire Norv because they don't want to pay 2 x-coaches. lolBTW-where did they spend all that money they saved on Brees?But if you think those decisions were in the best interest of the Chargers winning then I guess you're happy with the results. Because outside of the changes I mentioned, this is the same team.What I find interesting about this thread is that some want to pin the problems on Rivers. Some on the line. Some on the D. Isn't it interesting that it seems it's everyone's fault but AJ's. When they were winning with Marty and Brees, it was because of AJ. Now that they having troubled times, it's everyones fault but AJ's. Simply amazing the way some Charger fans see things.
All I know is that when I moved to Cali in 2003 the organization was in shambles and that the team, at least on paper, has improved every year. AJ didn't exactly have the easiest job in the world but he's helped make it so the Chargers aren't the laughingstock of the NFL.
:lmao:
Can't argue with that thinking. From a high level view it sounds right. But when you think about some of the moves you realize things could be better. BSS-this is not directed at you but to anyone that wants to answer:1. Did AJ do the right thing in letting Brees go? 2. Was letting Brees go and putting in a first year starter the best move to help the Chargers win and continue their upward development?3. Was letting Marty go the best thing for the Chargers?4. Did allowing Marty to go help the Chargers continue their upward development and winning ways? Especially considering they lost both coordinators? And they have a new QB that is still learning?5. Do you feel the Chargers are a better team today without Brees and Marty with the Chargers?If you feel AJ has made the best moves for the organization by letting Brees and Marty go then you have low expectations for them this year and therefore have no room to complain about Rivers or Norv. No reasonable person should expect a new QB and numerous coaching changes to move on without set backs. They need more time to make their impact. Perhaps 1-3 years more depending on wht other changes AJ has in store for them.These questions define what is happening to this team this year. Personally, I feel they would be in better position today if Brees was still their QB and/or Marty was their coach. Or if they still had some continuity in their coaching staff. Some of that was entirely out of their control but some of it was avoidable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't answer stoopid questions and it's a stoopid question and you looked silly for even asking it. Now you look even more silly for bringing it up again. So I'll leave it to you to answer seeing as you are the only one concerned about it.Oh, and please put me on ignore. You usually don't add any value to this discussion so maybe that would be the best thing you could do for all of us. Please.

If it's so stupid, then why did you suggest that the only reason that the Chargers would be holding on to a coach that has won 6 of his last 8 and could wrap up his division this weekend was to keep from paying for an ex-coach?Not adding value is better than detracting value, FM. Edited by Despyzer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Im a homer but not a blind homer. AJ has made some iffy decisions. But every GM decision will never 100% correct. Drafting a QB in round1 you are pretty much tied to him being your QB unless he totally flames out. That be said I have never like the Brees/Phil decision. The Marty thing was tougher and I know why it happened and then the bolts got caught behind the 8 ball as far as timing goes to getting a coach

1. Did AJ do the right thing in letting Brees go? NO

2. Was letting Brees go and putting in a first year starter the best move to help the Chargers win and continue their upward development? No, but they went 14-2 with Marty and will probably make the playoffs again this season

3. Was letting Marty go the best thing for the Chargers? No, but really the AJ - Marty relationship needed a divorce

4. Did allowing Marty to go help the Chargers continue their upward development and winning ways? No but they will win the division again. Sometimes you need to take a step back to make the leap forward

Especially considering they lost both coordinators? Kinda looks like Wade would have been the best choice, but Cam is in a no win siutation, LOL

And they have a new QB that is still learning? Like I said draft a QB in the top 5, he's going to be your QB eventually

5. Do you feel the Chargers are a better team today without Brees and Marty with the Chargers? Today, No but hopefully in the next 3 seasons or so we can win a SB, I have my doubts with Norv/Ted at the Helm,

Edited by bicycle_seat_sniffer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

BSS-this is not directed at you but to anyone that wants to answer:

1. Did AJ do the right thing in letting Brees go?

Wow... this has been re-hashed and re-hashed in multiple threads that you have been part of. Brees looked to have a Pennington-type shoulder injury and only a couple of years as a competent starter under his belt. Rivers had way more up-side and a high contract. Rivers has had at least as much success with the Chargers as Brees had.

2. Was letting Brees go and putting in a first year starter the best move to help the Chargers win and continue their upward development?

14 wins in a single season, argue with that.

3. Was letting Marty go the best thing for the Chargers?

Given that Marty left them no other option, of course.

4. Did allowing Marty to go help the Chargers continue their upward development and winning ways? Especially considering they lost both coordinators? And they have a new QB that is still learning?

The Chargers look like they are headed to at least ten, maybe eleven, wins. With or without Marty, I don't think anyone was anticipating much more than that this year.

5. Do you feel the Chargers are a better team today without Brees and Marty with the Chargers?

Rivers led the team to 14 wins last year and has been every bit as good as Brees this year, and he STILL has more up-side than Brees. Although Marty did not get fired for failing to win in the playoffs, he probably deserved to be. Neither of his Chargers teams that made the playoffs were very well prepared for those games, and idiotic coaching moves during the game only exasperated that problem. Hopefully, Norv can do better. It seems hard to believe he could do worse.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't answer stoopid questions and it's a stoopid question and you looked silly for even asking it. Now you look even more silly for bringing it up again. So I'll leave it to you to answer seeing as you are the only one concerned about it.Oh, and please put me on ignore. You usually don't add any value to this discussion so maybe that would be the best thing you could do for all of us. Please.

If it's so stupid, then why did you suggest that the only reason that the Chargers would be holding on to a coach that has won 6 of his last 8 and could wrap up his division this weekend was to keep from paying for an ex-coach?Not adding value is better than detracting value, FM.
Wow thisis really difficult for you isn't it. I'm not the one suggesting it. Read the news. I'm just repsonding to what's been reported by the Charger local media. I didn't make this up. It's really helpful to read all that I post rather pick bits and pieces. Maybe then we can have a meaningful debate instead of this idiotic nonsense. :thumbup:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Im a homer but not a blind homer. AJ has made some iffy decisions. But every GM decision will never 100% correct. Drafting a QB in round1 you are pretty much tied to him being your QB unless he totally flames out. That be said I have never like the Brees/Phil decision. The Marty thing was tougher and I know why it happened and then the bolts got caught behind the 8 ball as far as timing goes to getting a coach

1. Did AJ do the right thing in letting Brees go? NO

2. Was letting Brees go and putting in a first year starter the best move to help the Chargers win and continue their upward development? No, but they went 14-2 with Marty and will probably make the playoffs again this season

3. Was letting Marty go the best thing for the Chargers? No, but really the AJ - Marty relationship needed a divorce

4. Did allowing Marty to go help the Chargers continue their upward development and winning ways? No but they will win the division again. Sometimes you need to take a step back to make the leap forward

Especially considering they lost both coordinators? Kinda looks like Wade would have been the best choice, but Cam is in a no win siutation, LOL

And they have a new QB that is still learning? Like I said draft a QB in the top 5, he's going to be your QB eventually

5. Do you feel the Chargers are a better team today without Brees and Marty with the Chargers? Today, No but hopefully in the next 3 seasons or so we can win a SB, I have my doubts with Norv/Ted at the Helm,

And that is why I've been critical of AJ on these decisions. If he would of checked himself (ego) on these issues they would likely be a better TEAM today and going forward. He's the one that decided they needed to draft another QB. He's the one that allowed a Pro Bowl QB leave and start over at that position. (BTW-it's interesting to observe that the Browns are handling their similar QB issues better by at least allowing Anderson the time to prove or disprove he's their guy). He's the one that chose not to get along with his head coach. So the way I see it, he could of prevented these problems by doing what's best for the team rather than force his will. That's all I've been saying all along.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rivers last year played better than Brees ever had with the Chargers.

I'm a Rivers defender but that's simply not true. Brees had a GREAT 2004. 65% completion. 27td/7INT. That was just a phenomenal year. I'm not of the opinion that Brees is a GREAT QB, but that certainly was a great season. Rivers also played very well last year but not quite to that level. The following year before his injury he didn't play as well as Rivers played last year though. And perhaps more importantly the QB play actually went up from Brees's last season in SD to Rivers first season as starter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't answer stoopid questions and it's a stoopid question and you looked silly for even asking it. Now you look even more silly for bringing it up again. So I'll leave it to you to answer seeing as you are the only one concerned about it.Oh, and please put me on ignore. You usually don't add any value to this discussion so maybe that would be the best thing you could do for all of us. Please.

If it's so stupid, then why did you suggest that the only reason that the Chargers would be holding on to a coach that has won 6 of his last 8 and could wrap up his division this weekend was to keep from paying for an ex-coach?Not adding value is better than detracting value, FM.
Wow thisis really difficult for you isn't it. I'm not the one suggesting it. Read the news. I'm just repsonding to what's been reported by the Charger local media. I didn't make this up. It's really helpful to read all that I post rather pick bits and pieces. Maybe then we can have a meaningful debate instead of this idiotic nonsense. :cry:
You said "Now there are reports that they are so cheap that they don't want to fire Norv because they don't want to pay 2 x-coaches. lol" Can you link me to even one source that says that this is the only reason, or even the primary reason, that they won't fire Norv?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

BSS-this is not directed at you but to anyone that wants to answer:

1. Did AJ do the right thing in letting Brees go?

Wow... this has been re-hashed and re-hashed in multiple threads that you have been part of. Brees looked to have a Pennington-type shoulder injury and only a couple of years as a competent starter under his belt. Rivers had way more up-side and a high contract. Rivers has had at least as much success with the Chargers as Brees had.

2. Was letting Brees go and putting in a first year starter the best move to help the Chargers win and continue their upward development?

14 wins in a single season, argue with that.

3. Was letting Marty go the best thing for the Chargers?

Given that Marty left them no other option, of course.

4. Did allowing Marty to go help the Chargers continue their upward development and winning ways? Especially considering they lost both coordinators? And they have a new QB that is still learning?

The Chargers look like they are headed to at least ten, maybe eleven, wins. With or without Marty, I don't think anyone was anticipating much more than that this year.

5. Do you feel the Chargers are a better team today without Brees and Marty with the Chargers?

Rivers led the team to 14 wins last year and has been every bit as good as Brees this year, and he STILL has more up-side than Brees. Although Marty did not get fired for failing to win in the playoffs, he probably deserved to be. Neither of his Chargers teams that made the playoffs were very well prepared for those games, and idiotic coaching moves during the game only exasperated that problem. Hopefully, Norv can do better. It seems hard to believe he could do worse.

Well at least you believe whatever they're selling and that's something if not blind homerism. The belief that Rivers is as good as Brees and that Marty needing to be fired after losing a playoff game is the premise of your beliefs today. It's really difficult to debate with someone that's locked into a belief that reasonable outside of blind homerism can easily see. I can understand you're being behind your team and all and that's great, I won't criticize a fan for believeing. But outside of of that noone that is being realistic is going to believe that these moves were what's best for the team. Sure, it may yet work out, over time, but at what cost? You have to think they would be better off if these moves were not made.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't answer stoopid questions and it's a stoopid question and you looked silly for even asking it. Now you look even more silly for bringing it up again. So I'll leave it to you to answer seeing as you are the only one concerned about it.Oh, and please put me on ignore. You usually don't add any value to this discussion so maybe that would be the best thing you could do for all of us. Please.

If it's so stupid, then why did you suggest that the only reason that the Chargers would be holding on to a coach that has won 6 of his last 8 and could wrap up his division this weekend was to keep from paying for an ex-coach?Not adding value is better than detracting value, FM.
Wow thisis really difficult for you isn't it. I'm not the one suggesting it. Read the news. I'm just repsonding to what's been reported by the Charger local media. I didn't make this up. It's really helpful to read all that I post rather pick bits and pieces. Maybe then we can have a meaningful debate instead of this idiotic nonsense. :shrug:
You said "Now there are reports that they are so cheap that they don't want to fire Norv because they don't want to pay 2 x-coaches. lol" Can you link me to even one source that says that this is the only reason, or even the primary reason, that they won't fire Norv?
The link was already posted earlier. Feel free to look it up yourself. Sounds like your beef is with the guy reprting this, not me. But I have to say based on AJ's past handling of some player contracts that it's very believable. At the very least, he's left some believeing it's the case. Maybe it's not true but very believable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well at least you believe whatever they're selling and that's something if not blind homerism. The belief that Rivers is as good as Brees and that Marty needing to be fired after losing a playoff game is the premise of your beliefs today. It's really difficult to debate with someone that's locked into a belief that reasonable outside of blind homerism can easily see. I can understand you're being behind your team and all and that's great, I won't criticize a fan for believeing. But outside of of that noone that is being realistic is going to believe that these moves were what's best for the team. Sure, it may yet work out, over time, but at what cost? You have to think they would be better off if these moves were not made.

Gosh! How original! Anything that you do not agree with is "blind homerism." If you had no interest in the answers to these questions, why did you even ask? This is what I mean when I say that you actually detract from the value of a thread.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The link was already posted earlier. Feel free to look it up yourself.

:angry:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1. Did AJ do the right thing in letting Brees go? 2. Was letting Brees go and putting in a first year starter the best move to help the Chargers win and continue their upward development?3. Was letting Marty go the best thing for the Chargers?4. Did allowing Marty to go help the Chargers continue their upward development and winning ways? Especially considering they lost both coordinators? And they have a new QB that is still learning?5. Do you feel the Chargers are a better team today without Brees and Marty with the Chargers?

I'm a little surprised these are the questions you choose to ask but...1. Right now neither Brees/Rivers look like they should be making franchise $ at QB so the answer is an emphatic yes.2. We don't have to answer that. All we have to do is look what happened. SD actually got improved QB play when Brees left and Rivers started and SD went 14-2. With Brees at QB for four seasons SD never won a playoff game. In one season Rivers is 0-1. I don't know if they'll win a playoff game in the next three seasons but we know as great as some people seem to think Brees was he wasn't able to in four seasons.3. No. But in the order SD misses their coaching staff I'd say 1)Cam Cameron - that offense had really been humming for years and I said all along they should make Cam the HC if that's what it took to keep him. 2)Wade - I think it's pretty clear he's a very, very good coach in his own right. 3)Marty - I've always been a Marty fan since he coached the Cheifs and defended him vehemently when more than half the people in the Sharkpool were saying he should be fired for Denny Green before Green went to ARZ. My how opinions on these coaches changes quickly. The overall point being Marty/Cam/Wade were a great coaching staff. The couldn't keep that staff no matter what they did. The coaching staff this season was not going to be as good no matter what they did.4. So far it looks like yes. With Marty SD never won a playoff game. We have no idea what Turner will do in the playoffs, but if he goes to the playoffs and loses that will equal Marty's success in SD. Winning a playoff game is the defintion of their continued upward development at this point. I don't care what their regular season record is at all if they can win in the playoffs.5. See above. We won't know until we see them play in the playoffs. If they get to the playoffs and lose they are stuck at the same level they were at with Marty/Brees. If they win a playoff game they will have taken a major step forward.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Im a homer but not a blind homer. AJ has made some iffy decisions. But every GM decision will never 100% correct. Drafting a QB in round1 you are pretty much tied to him being your QB unless he totally flames out. That be said I have never like the Brees/Phil decision. The Marty thing was tougher and I know why it happened and then the bolts got caught behind the 8 ball as far as timing goes to getting a coach

1. Did AJ do the right thing in letting Brees go? NO

2. Was letting Brees go and putting in a first year starter the best move to help the Chargers win and continue their upward development? No, but they went 14-2 with Marty and will probably make the playoffs again this season

3. Was letting Marty go the best thing for the Chargers? No, but really the AJ - Marty relationship needed a divorce

4. Did allowing Marty to go help the Chargers continue their upward development and winning ways? No but they will win the division again. Sometimes you need to take a step back to make the leap forward

Especially considering they lost both coordinators? Kinda looks like Wade would have been the best choice, but Cam is in a no win siutation, LOL

And they have a new QB that is still learning? Like I said draft a QB in the top 5, he's going to be your QB eventually

5. Do you feel the Chargers are a better team today without Brees and Marty with the Chargers? Today, No but hopefully in the next 3 seasons or so we can win a SB, I have my doubts with Norv/Ted at the Helm,

And that is why I've been critical of AJ on these decisions. If he would of checked himself (ego) on these issues they would likely be a better TEAM today and going forward. He's the one that decided they needed to draft another QB. He's the one that allowed a Pro Bowl QB leave and start over at that position. (BTW-it's interesting to observe that the Browns are handling their similar QB issues better by at least allowing Anderson the time to prove or disprove he's their guy). He's the one that chose not to get along with his head coach. So the way I see it, he could of prevented these problems by doing what's best for the team rather than force his will. That's all I've been saying all along.
FM in AJ's defense when he drafted Rivers Brees hadnt shown much yet. So in his mind we needed a QB. then the holdout, which happens to almost every GM, so Brees started the 04 season got hot and lead the team to the playoffs for the first time in 8 years.

The situation is very similar in cleveland right now. Lets see how it plays out there. It is not any easy decision

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't answer stoopid questions and it's a stoopid question and you looked silly for even asking it. Now you look even more silly for bringing it up again. So I'll leave it to you to answer seeing as you are the only one concerned about it.Oh, and please put me on ignore. You usually don't add any value to this discussion so maybe that would be the best thing you could do for all of us. Please.

If it's so stupid, then why did you suggest that the only reason that the Chargers would be holding on to a coach that has won 6 of his last 8 and could wrap up his division this weekend was to keep from paying for an ex-coach?Not adding value is better than detracting value, FM.
Wow thisis really difficult for you isn't it. I'm not the one suggesting it. Read the news. I'm just repsonding to what's been reported by the Charger local media. I didn't make this up. It's really helpful to read all that I post rather pick bits and pieces. Maybe then we can have a meaningful debate instead of this idiotic nonsense. :bag:
it=info

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rivers last year played better than Brees ever had with the Chargers.

I'm a Rivers defender but that's simply not true.

Brees had a GREAT 2004. 65% completion. 27td/7INT. That was just a phenomenal year. I'm not of the opinion that Brees is a GREAT QB, but that certainly was a great season. Rivers also played very well last year but not quite to that level. The following year before his injury he didn't play as well as Rivers played last year though. And perhaps more importantly the QB play actually went up from Brees's last season in SD to Rivers first season as starter.

Brees in 2004: DPAR = 75.6

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb2004.php

Rivers in 2006: DPAR = 85.1

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb2006.php

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rivers is trying really hard. Why don't we all give him a huzzah for his effort !!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Funny how when I refer to articles or national media pundits about the Chargers I hear comments like they don't what they're talking about. I also here from some of you that Acee is the local expert and is "in the know" so to speak. In fact it was Maurile that has stated Acee is the Charger expert. I know some have hold him in high regard.

I hold Acee's opinion in high regard. But it's important to remember it's still just an opinion unless he's reporting facts.As far as "national PUNDITS" go, more than half of them seem like a joke to me. Ever read an article by billy simmons? That's a pundit? Skip Bayless? Jim Rome has that "blind date" dating show host on his program from time to time. Should we wring our hands about opinions from the blind date pundit? If you have a quote from someone reputable in the NFL or a beat reporter from that team than post a link. Not all beat writers are created equal for that matter either. If you heard some random pundit spewing his opinion it holds very little weight with me.I do believe what you say about Spanos not wanting to pay two coaches though. He's always seemed cheap to me. I don't need a link on that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You said "Now there are reports that they are so cheap that they don't want to fire Norv because they don't want to pay 2 x-coaches. lol" Can you link me to even one source that says that this is the only reason, or even the primary reason, that they won't fire Norv?

The link was already posted earlier. Feel free to look it up yourself.
There was and is no link. It was in a Jim Trotter SI article that, as far as I know, is not available online. I didn't read the article; I read about it on another board.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rivers last year played better than Brees ever had with the Chargers.

I'm a Rivers defender but that's simply not true.

Brees had a GREAT 2004. 65% completion. 27td/7INT. That was just a phenomenal year. I'm not of the opinion that Brees is a GREAT QB, but that certainly was a great season. Rivers also played very well last year but not quite to that level. The following year before his injury he didn't play as well as Rivers played last year though. And perhaps more importantly the QB play actually went up from Brees's last season in SD to Rivers first season as starter.

Brees in 2004: DPAR = 75.6

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb2004.php

Rivers in 2006: DPAR = 85.1

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb2006.php

I don't believe in that stat, whatever it is.

65%, 27td/7int, 7.9y/a > 61%, 22int/9int, 7.4y/a ...and I can't believe that's even debatable.

I honestly have no idea how any grading system spins the second set of #'s as better than the first set of #'s but it just underscores how dumb dpar must be if you ask me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do believe what you say about Spanos not wanting to pay two coaches though. He's always seemed cheap to me. I don't need a link on that.

You do realize that this is the only part of your post that FM paid any attention to, right?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rivers last year played better than Brees ever had with the Chargers.

I'm a Rivers defender but that's simply not true.

Brees had a GREAT 2004. 65% completion. 27td/7INT. That was just a phenomenal year. I'm not of the opinion that Brees is a GREAT QB, but that certainly was a great season. Rivers also played very well last year but not quite to that level. The following year before his injury he didn't play as well as Rivers played last year though. And perhaps more importantly the QB play actually went up from Brees's last season in SD to Rivers first season as starter.

Brees in 2004: DPAR = 75.6

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb2004.php

Rivers in 2006: DPAR = 85.1

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb2006.php

I don't believe in that stat, whatever it is.
Link.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rivers last year played better than Brees ever had with the Chargers.

I'm a Rivers defender but that's simply not true.

Brees had a GREAT 2004. 65% completion. 27td/7INT. That was just a phenomenal year. I'm not of the opinion that Brees is a GREAT QB, but that certainly was a great season. Rivers also played very well last year but not quite to that level. The following year before his injury he didn't play as well as Rivers played last year though. And perhaps more importantly the QB play actually went up from Brees's last season in SD to Rivers first season as starter.

Brees in 2004: DPAR = 75.6

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb2004.php

Rivers in 2006: DPAR = 85.1

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb2006.php

I don't believe in that stat, whatever it is.
Link.
Thanks for the link. Still looks like witchcraft to me. I stand by...

65%, 27td/7int, 7.9y/a > 61%, 22int/9int, 7.4y/a

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rivers last year played better than Brees ever had with the Chargers.

I'm a Rivers defender but that's simply not true.

Brees had a GREAT 2004. 65% completion. 27td/7INT. That was just a phenomenal year. I'm not of the opinion that Brees is a GREAT QB, but that certainly was a great season. Rivers also played very well last year but not quite to that level. The following year before his injury he didn't play as well as Rivers played last year though. And perhaps more importantly the QB play actually went up from Brees's last season in SD to Rivers first season as starter.

Brees in 2004: DPAR = 75.6

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb2004.php

Rivers in 2006: DPAR = 85.1

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb2006.php

I don't believe in that stat, whatever it is.
Link.
What don't you believe about it?

I'm guessing that the difference in traditional numbers and the one formulated by their very detailed system has to do with the differing strength of the defenses they faced that year. Is that not something that should be taken into consideration?

Edited by Mr. PadresLakers

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do believe what you say about Spanos not wanting to pay two coaches though. He's always seemed cheap to me. I don't need a link on that.

You do realize that this is the only part of your post that FM paid any attention to, right?
I don't think he has the patience to read down that far. He's been asking all the same questions and getting all the same answers for months now. If SD doesn't win the SB he'll be asking all offseason "Would SD have won the SB with Marty as coach?" even though it's been explained to him to the point of nausea that SD would be better with last years COACHING STAFF, not just Marty. And I haven't seen anyone explain a way SD could have kept that staff intact.But the Spanos extension offered to Marty wasn't fair. And imo it all revolved around $(shocker). Spanos is just lucky so many "national pundits" thnk the story "AJ and Marty were in a cage match and AJ hit him over the head with a chair!" is sexier than the truth. Spanos didn't want to reward Marty with a big long term deal for the good work Marty did in SD. There's really no other way to spin it... unless you get all your news and form your opinions based on rantings of Skip Bayless and latest whispers from the set of blind date.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But the Spanos extension offered to Marty wasn't fair. And imo it all revolved around $(shocker).

Maybe I am a huge homer, but I don't think the job Marty did in the playoffs warranted any kind of extension. The fact that he was offered one for any amount of money was a gift, as far as I was concerned. If it was me, I would have just let him play out his contract and see if that old dog could learn from his mistakes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know I've had my share of mis-reading a post but I didn't say or suggest he decided to get rid of the coordinators. I said he decided (or he and Spanos) to fire Marty and get rid of Brees. As for the money, not sure where the cap number is but they aren't they under? If so then your point is off a bit. Besides, teams pay injured players every year. They heal and play again. It happens all the time. And if they were that concerned about his health, then why offer him any money at all? They just wanted him if they could get him cheap. IOW-they weren't interested in paying him fair market money. AJ tried the saame thing with Gates. That was a costly mistake as well. Now there are reports that they are so cheap that they don't want to fire Norv because they don't want to pay 2 x-coaches. lol

BTW-where did they spend all that money they saved on Brees?

But if you think those decisions were in the best interest of the Chargers winning then I guess you're happy with the results. Because outside of the changes I mentioned, this is the same team.

What I find interesting about this thread is that some want to pin the problems on Rivers. Some on the line. Some on the D. Isn't it interesting that it seems it's everyone's fault but AJ's. When they were winning with Marty and Brees, it was because of AJ. Now that they having troubled times, it's everyones fault but AJ's. Simply amazing the way some Charger fans see things.

The Chargers have pretty consistently spent up to the cap number for quite some time. However, they do a pretty good job managing their future cap, so each year they start out significantly below the cap. The Chargers as an organization have shown that they are willing pay players based on performance on the field (see LT). And you are wrong about Antonio Gates. The Chargers (and AJ) had no problem paying him big time money (which they are), they just wanted him to sign the tender and get into camp while they negotiated his new contract.

1. The Chargers are no where near their cap from what I've seen. They are about middle of the road on payroll.

2. You are not accurate about Gates. They did not want to deal in a fair way and he held out for a fair market deal. Aj played hardball when he realized he couldn't bully Gates and in doinf so he cost the team, again. Of course in the end he paid Gates. Gates gave a little and AJ gave a little. But that could of been done before AJ put the Chargers in abd situation. Clearly his actions were not in the Chargers best interest.

As far as Brees goes, what did he win while he was a Charger? One division title. No playoff wins. I don't think losing Brees has hurt this team nearly as much as you suggest. In fact, the Chargers have a pretty decent chance to finish this year at 11-5. That would match the team's best record under Brees.

Your point on Brees is skewed to make it appear their decision was warrented. I'm surprised you said that. Didn't think I would have to make this point to you. With any QB there is a development process. Brees had just turned the corner and was proving himself. The talent on this team was not fully assembled while Brees was developing. Parts were being added along the way. In some cases (Gates for example) parts were missing at times due to AJ's hardball tatics. I'm sure that missing Gates for training and gametime didn't help the Chargers in their efforts to improve and improve. But Brees did continue to improve, didn't he? River OTOH-had the benefit of a fully loaded team to step into. This is hardly a similar situation. And if you are seriously suggesting that this year's team is asgood as it was last year then you must be smoking something. Have you seen them play? Have you read the comments in this thread questioning what's wrong? I really do not expect they will go far in the playoffs. The only way they do is if they somehow turn things around in a dramatic fashion.

BTW, the Chargers have used the money saved by not signing Brees to extend the contracts of or resign many of their starters (Jammer and Dielman being two prime examples).

You could also say that they made those deals on the new cap money they had to work with. Fact is they are just avg in spending their money. The big deal some have made here on the big savings of letting Brees leave just doesn't add up. Some make different excuses like he was hurt so why would they weant him? And yet they made an insulting low ball offer that came off contradictory. Doesn't add up either.

As far as not wanting to fire Norv because they don't want to pay 2 ex coaches, that is pure speculation by writers who have column space to fill. I am sure that the Chargers don't want to pay 2 ex coaches, but I don't think that would stop them if they felt they really needed to make a change.

So you're saying Acee isn't a viable source? Maurlie would disagree with you. Either that or all the other arguments made based on his reports are bogus I guess. :unsure:

As far as this Chargers fan is concerned, I don't blame anybody for their inability to match expectations this year. I think the expectations for this team were set too high. This is a team that has gone 11-5, 9-7, 14-2 the last three years, and will end up somewhere between 9-7 and 11-5 this year. It would appear to me that this is nominally a 10-6 or 11-5 team that either overachieved or benefited from a soft schedule last year, and is playing about to their talent level this year.

I agree that expectations were too high. But for different reasons. I noticed to avoid the issue created by AJ's changes. I can only assume by your responses so far and failure to address my main point, that you think these moves by AJ were good ones. So you think the following to be true:

1. Letting Brees go was the best thing to help this team win now.

2. Playing hardball with star players like Gates sends a positive message to the rest of the team that we want you to help us win. So long as we can lowball you.

3. If you get injired I'm not going to want any longer. See Brees.

4. If I don't you I will argue with you, take away your authority and not support you in your efforts to build a winning team. See Marty.

So these types of decisions have led to numerous changes that have stopped their progress. Their performance so far this year proves that to be true. Unless you want to suggest the LT was lying in his SI interview that things are an issue. You only need to step back from the AJ is god perspective and see and hear what's happening.

They're still good but they could be doing so much better if AJ hadn't made some of these decisions. Pretty simple really.

Man, I get tired of rehashing the same arguments over and over. I will get to your specific points in a moments.

Salary cap numbers are notoriously imprecise and difficult to come by. If you are looking at preseason cap figures, they are pretty much useless. The last number I saw for the Chargers was around week 1 or week 2 of the season, and it had them about $750K under the cap for this year. Predraft they were around 12.3 million. As I said, the Chargers will spend up close to the cap most years, but they structure their contracts well, so they usually start each year with significant cap room.

I guess you could say the Chargers didn't want to deal with Gates in a fair way, but I am not sure I would agree with you. They wanted Gates to sign the tender, come in and work with the team while they work on his new contract. Gates felt he had more leverage in negotiations if he didn't. Nothing really unusual here. It happens with several teams and players just about every year. In the end they both got a contract they were happy with, so I am not going to complain about how it got done. I know some people want to harp on how it cost them the playoffs because they lost the one game Gates wasn't able to participate in. I disagree.

Brees. I don't think I did anything to skew my arguement for or against Drew. I think Drew is a fine QB. But he is hardly irreplaceable. He is certainly not Peyton Manning or Tom Brady. And again, I have to ask. What did he do that was so great in San Diego? He had as bad a year as a QB can have in 2003. Turned a corner and had a great season in 2004. He significantly regressed in 2005, so I would have to say, no, he wasn't continuing to improve.

And I wasn't comparing this years team to last years team. I was looking at the teams recent results. 11-5, 9-7, 14-2, 11-5 (at best). Which one of these things stands out the most? My contention is that last years team was a bit of a fluke, and they are not as good as their record indicates. And I gave what I believe are plausible reasons for those results. I agree, the team has not played as well this year as they did last year. It would be impossible to succesfully argue otherwise. My arguments are more based on why the team has not played as well this year. Some argue it is mostly due to changes made in the offseason. I would agree that this has played a role. But my main contention is that is a 10-6 or 11-5 team, and they are playing pretty much how you would expect such a team to play. I am no longer basing my expectations on the assumption that this is an elite team that should be considered a primary contender for the Super Bowl. There are too many holes on this team for that to be the case (poor safeties, mediocre middle linebackers, average receivers, inconsistent oline).

Again, I believe you are wrong on the Chargers salary cap situation. I believe you are basing your conclusions on offseason/preseason cap projections. Most years, the Chargers will spend up to the cap. But because they manage their cap space as well as they do, they begin each offseason with significant cap space.

Now, on to your specific questions:

1. Was letting Brees go the best thing to help the team win now? I don't think it hurt their chance to win now. And I believe it allowed them to extend their window of opportunity by a few years. I was, and still am, okay with that decision.

2. I pretty much completely disagree with this statement. The Chargers didn't lowball Gates. Your statement completely mischaracterizes the situation, and quite frankly, makes you look ill-informed. Ask LT if he feels the Chargers are difficult to negotiate with. Or Quentin Jammer, or any of the other recent Chargers that have signed contracts or contract extensions.

3. Wow. This statement is so silly, I am not sure if you are serious or not. But on the off chance you are.. Two teams offered Drew a contract. The Chargers and the Saints. One team had an absolute mess at the QB position, the other was in pretty decent shape at the QB position. I will let you decide which team was which, and which team made the higher offer. And the only other team that took any interest in Drew that year, decided he was too much of injury risk to even offer a contract to. You continue to press this issue, without taking into account all of the factors involved that led to Drew Brees becoming a Saint. It really weakens your argument, IMO.

4. Again, you are completely ignoring all of the other factors that went into the Marty firing. To be honest, I have a much bigger issue with the coach they hired to replace Marty than I do with firing Marty. But that is a totally different topic.

I am sure I am coming off as an AJ apologist here. I think AJ has done many good things for the Chargers, and a few not so good things. I think the 'AJ Smith has a tremendous ego' thing is far more of an invention of the press than anything that has any real substance. It certainly makes for a more interesting read, though. And AJ certainly doesn't appear to be interested in doing anything to dispel the notion.

As a Chargers fan my issues with A.J. Smith are:

1. Inability to fix the problem at safety

2. Failing to move aggressively to maintain one of their coordinators when it became apparent they would lose both of them

3. Taking the 'safe' choice in hiring Norv Turner over an unproven candidate (Rex Ryan was my preference).

4. Ted Cottrell. Enough said.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rivers last year played better than Brees ever had with the Chargers.

I'm a Rivers defender but that's simply not true.

Brees had a GREAT 2004. 65% completion. 27td/7INT. That was just a phenomenal year. I'm not of the opinion that Brees is a GREAT QB, but that certainly was a great season. Rivers also played very well last year but not quite to that level. The following year before his injury he didn't play as well as Rivers played last year though. And perhaps more importantly the QB play actually went up from Brees's last season in SD to Rivers first season as starter.

Brees in 2004: DPAR = 75.6

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb2004.php

Rivers in 2006: DPAR = 85.1

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb2006.php

I don't believe in that stat, whatever it is.
Link.
What don't you believe about it?
I belive...

65% > 61% completion percentage

27/7 > 22/9 TD/INT ratio

7.9 > 7.4 Y/A

... are the biggest three stats I look at when comparing QB's. Both QB's played as the starter all season long(actually Brees even missed one game and still had 5 more TD's).

Guessing how much better a player is than his replacement MIGHT BE is fine. Spin SOS if you like. Bottom line is Brees was more accurate, had a better TD/INT ratio and averaged more yards per attempt. If you throw those numbers into any blender and the blender says the worse #'s are better... then you need a new blender.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As a Chargers fan my issues with A.J. Smith are:1. Inability to fix the problem at safety2. Failing to move aggressively to maintain one of their coordinators when it became apparent they would lose both of them3. Taking the 'safe' choice in hiring Norv Turner over an unproven candidate (Rex Ryan was my preference).4. Ted Cottrell. Enough said.

I'd add5. Poisoning a relationship with Donnie Edwards to the point he's willing to take very little $ to play for a division rival. Especially when you really don't have much talent in line to replace Edwards.I've been harping on that one all year.I think they did at least try #1 in the draft. After seeing how some of the FA S's from last summer have bounced around and had trouble finding a starting job he may have dodged a bullet by signing one of those guys. McCree also didn't play nearly as bad last season so the need wasn't quite as glaring last year. Still, I would have liked to see a vet like Sammy Knight added to go along with Weddle to hold the job while Weddle learns the ropes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As a Chargers fan my issues with A.J. Smith are:1. Inability to fix the problem at safety2. Failing to move aggressively to maintain one of their coordinators when it became apparent they would lose both of them3. Taking the 'safe' choice in hiring Norv Turner over an unproven candidate (Rex Ryan was my preference).4. Ted Cottrell. Enough said.

I'd add5. Poisoning a relationship with Donnie Edwards to the point he's willing to take very little $ to play for a division rival. Especially when you really don't have much talent in line to replace Edwards.I've been harping on that one all year.I think they did at least try #1 in the draft. After seeing how some of the FA S's from last summer have bounced around and had trouble finding a starting job he may have dodged a bullet by signing one of those guys. McCree also didn't play nearly as bad last season so the need wasn't quite as glaring last year. Still, I would have liked to see a vet like Sammy Knight added to go along with Weddle to hold the job while Weddle learns the ropes.
I thought about adding DE to the list. But I believe that was as much Donnie as it was AJ Smith. Donnie was complaining about his contract the moment he walked into the locker room. Still, it was clear he was an important leader on the team, and AJ should have and could have done more to work with him.And I didn't say he hasn't tried to fix the problems at safety. He just hasn't been succesful at it. I think he has done a much better job at other positions (oline, dline, receiver). Defensive backfield appears to be the one area AJ and the Chargers scouting staff isn't great at talent evaluation. Well, nobody is perfect, I guess.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As a Chargers fan my issues with A.J. Smith are:1. Inability to fix the problem at safety2. Failing to move aggressively to maintain one of their coordinators when it became apparent they would lose both of them3. Taking the 'safe' choice in hiring Norv Turner over an unproven candidate (Rex Ryan was my preference).4. Ted Cottrell. Enough said.

Even most of these don't bother me much.1. He has at least made a solid effort each of the last three seasons. A top draft choice this year, McCree last year, and Jue the year before that. No GM hits a home run every time out, and there hasn't been a lot available for him to take advantage of.2. I can't imagine what the Chargers could have offered that would compensate for not being a HC.3. "Staying the course" with a 14-win team still doesn't sound like an awful plan of attack. We still don't know what Norv can do with these players when he has a better field of coaches to choose from.4. No argument there. Cottrell has been awful, but he has looked a bit more aggressive lately. Maybe he has turned a corner. Edited by Despyzer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I belive...

65% > 61% completion percentage

27/7 > 22/9 TD/INT ratio

7.9 > 7.4 Y/A

... are the biggest three stats I look at when comparing QB's. Both QB's played as the starter all season long(actually Brees even missed one game and still had 5 more TD's).

Guessing how much better a player is than his replacement MIGHT BE is fine. Spin SOS if you like. Bottom line is Brees was more accurate, had a better TD/INT ratio and averaged more yards per attempt. If you throw those numbers into any blender and the blender says the worse #'s are better... then you need a new blender.

It seems like common sense to me to value putting up solid numbers against a very good defense over putting up slightly better numbers over a very weak one.

:goodposting:

If you want to refer to that as spin so be it, but you should watch me play as Rivers in Madden 2007 in rookie mode. He's awesome!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As a Chargers fan my issues with A.J. Smith are:1. Inability to fix the problem at safety2. Failing to move aggressively to maintain one of their coordinators when it became apparent they would lose both of them3. Taking the 'safe' choice in hiring Norv Turner over an unproven candidate (Rex Ryan was my preference).4. Ted Cottrell. Enough said.

Even most of these don't bother me much.1. He has at least made a solid effort each of the last three seasons. A top draft choice this year, McCree last year, and Jue the year before that. No GM hits a home run every time out, and there hasn't been a lot available for him to take advantage of.2. I can't imagine what the Chargers could have offered that would compensate for not being a HC.3. "Staying the course" with a 14-win team still doesn't sound like an awful plan of attack. We still don't know what Norv can do with these players when he has a better field of coaches to choose from.4. No argument there. Cottrell has been awful, but he has looked a bit more aggressive lately. Maybe he has turned a corner.
1. I agree there have been efforts made. And it isn't like Laron Landry dropped into their laps and they passed on him. But their safeties still suck.2. Well, I think you answered your own question there. But it would have been a very bold move to fire Marty and promote Cam or Wade. And if it didn't work out, well it would make the current situation look like the shark move.3. Sure. I can understand the logic. And the season aint done yet. The team is 6-2 over their last eight games, and play pretty well in many areas now. And to be honest, I have thought for some time that the players have been more of an issue than the coach. Typical letdown season after what they did last year. Happens to a lot teams, heck look at the Saints, Bears and Ravens this year. Still, I think Rex Ryan could have done great things with this team, depending on who he was able to get as an OC.4. We can always hope.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I thought about adding DE to the list. But I believe that was as much Donnie as it was AJ Smith. Donnie was complaining about his contract the moment he walked into the locker room. Still, it was clear he was an important leader on the team, and AJ should have and could have done more to work with him.

With Castillo/Orshansky still pretty young I've been hoping that they'd look more towards young depth at DT behind Williams for the past several year. Not a 1st/2nd rounder but at least a "project" type guy with a lot of upside you could develop. Williams had actually been healthy for the past two years(the defense used to fall apart whenever he missed time in '02-'04) but he's 31. I don't trust Bingham long-term. They need a stronger backup there.Donnie deserves some of the blame to be sure but if a guy is THAT important to your defense and you are looking at the prospect of losing both your starting ILB's..... you gotta work with the guy. Did you read some of the quotes going back and forth between AJ and Edwards before LAST season? Even after AJ had "won" and Edwards was just going to finish out his contract in SD AJ couldn't keep his mouth shut. He just kept pouring salt onto the wound. After all those years without missing a single game and putting up with AJ's digs in the media I don't think there was any way Edwards would have stayed with SD for any amount of $. People talk about AJ's ego but that's the only situation where I clearly think it hurt SD in an obvious, indisputable way.If Edwards wants more $ than he's worth, well at least don't alienate him to the point he'll make your competition stronger for less $. Then AJ compounds that mistake by failing to address the ILB position. At the time I thought Wilhelm/Cooper were serviceable but nothing special. I still feel that way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.