Jeff Pasquino
Footballguy
You really think that QB play is THAT tied to Win-Loss?Maybe Tomlinson, Gates, and a defense might have something to do with it?How many times have we seen QBs with terrible games win?Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
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QB Philip Rivers, RET (10 Viewers)
- Thread starter Moe Green
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You really think that QB play is THAT tied to Win-Loss?Maybe Tomlinson, Gates, and a defense might have something to do with it?How many times have we seen QBs with terrible games win?
tommyGunZ
Footballguy
Yes. QB play is extremely important in determining Ws and Ls.
Of course they do. I'm not insinuating that they are non-factors. I'm only pointing out that the Chargers are winning in large part BECAUSE of Philip Rivers, not in spite of him, as many of you claim.
27 times out of 35 games? Time to start facing the facts Jeff. Rivers' delivery isn't classical, he has the mentality of a linebacker, and he's emotional. But he's damn good, even though he doesn't fit into your preconceived idea of a successful QB.
Football Jones
Footballguy
Philip Rivers has a long, LONG way to go to be a good QB, IMO. He's pretty average, & while I'd agree QB rating isn't the end-all-be-all, it's a decent gauge. He owns a mediocre rating. Without the talent around him, it would surely be worse. I don't believe there's any way he'll ever be a top flight QB. In fact, I can't see him even being their long-term answer. And while I didn't watch him play nearly as much as some Charger fans this season, I've heard lots of comments from diehard Bolts fans that he regressed this year.
The bright side is he can get hot. He played extremely well this week. The downside is he'll likely revert to his historical level soon. He's got a chance to prove me wrong over time, so another week of nice play would make me take a little more notice.
The bright side is he can get hot. He played extremely well this week. The downside is he'll likely revert to his historical level soon. He's got a chance to prove me wrong over time, so another week of nice play would make me take a little more notice.
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nxmehta
Footballguy
Maybe you can define "damn good" for us? What QBs would you rather have than Rivers? I can name at least 10. I wouldn't call someone outside of the top 10 QBs "damn good". Where do you have him?I can certainly see Rivers as an above average QB, but not a whole lot more than that. He's young and still has time though.
BoltBacker
Footballguy
Just curious... when do you think the last time was he wasn't "hot"?
BoltBacker
Footballguy
You know, I thought this would be the week this excuse why Rivers is playing well would finally be put to rest. Gates was hobbled out there and Tomlinson didn't play for most of the game... yet Rivers put's up a 133.2 QB rating.
Despyzer
Lousy Attention Whore
Apparently, he needed to play without a defense as well. All the great QBs had great supporting casts that contributed to their greatness, but Rivers is somehow viewed in a vacuum. Despite Rivers' success, he still sucks.
Jeff Pasquino
Footballguy
Please don't take a part of my statement and twist it.That comment was to
TommyGunz as to why Rivers' record as a starter is inflated.I said a few times that Rivers had a great game Sunday.
Rivers has the highest career QB rating in Chargers history -- higher than Fouts, higher than Brees, higher than Humphries, higher than Hadl . . .
Gold Plated Nails
Footballguy
Sush, facts are not welcome when speaking of Rivers, just opinions and hate please.
buster c
Footballguy
when stats start saying things like 'Rivers is a better QB than Fouts' it's time to stop reading them and simply watch the action on the field with ones own eyes.
Gold Plated Nails
Footballguy
By all means, keep the opinions rolling. What did your eyes tell you yesterday? If you had never seen a football game in your life and watched the "Terrible" Rivers, what would you think? How about the weekend before when he threw for 300 yards against a good Titans D? Would Terrible be the word for his play? That is afterall what this thread is about...
Rivers obviously has a ways to go before he is considered a better QB than Fouts (although I think he is on his way). But Football Jones was specifically commenting on his passer rating. His passer rating is already better than that of Fouts.
buster c
Footballguy
actually, I like Rivers. I know what the thread title says, but I only popped in to the current page where the comment that inferred that Rivers was the superior QB was posted.
Football Jones
Footballguy
Unless NFL.com is wrong, his QB rating was 82.4 this season (not counting playoffs). If they are wrong, I apologize. From what I've seen of him in '07, though, it's not inaccurate. His playoff rating is excellent, but is the 82 not mediocre? I also think the 82 is helped by being surrounded by outstanding talent.
Look, I don't think he's a bad QB, but to say he's a good QB is way off base, IMO. I don't like his upside in FF & I believe his ceiling is limited in the real world. Has he shown me something the last couple of weeks? Yes. I'm still WAY leery, though. Time will tell.
MT,
I've heard from several Bolts fans that Rivers regressed this season. You don't agree? Just curious.
Look, I don't think he's a bad QB, but to say he's a good QB is way off base, IMO. I don't like his upside in FF & I believe his ceiling is limited in the real world. Has he shown me something the last couple of weeks? Yes. I'm still WAY leery, though. Time will tell.
MT,
I've heard from several Bolts fans that Rivers regressed this season. You don't agree? Just curious.
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I don't know that Rivers played worse in 2007 than in 2006, but his stats regressed for sure.I think Rivers benefited from the excellent OL play last year, and was hurt by the inconsistent OL play this year. For much of 2007, he didn't have the same confidence as he did in 2006, and it affected his mechanics. He doesn't throw his passes the same way every time. He is behind where he should be in terms of his footwork and mechanics due to his injured foot last season. Those kinds of fundamentals are generally worked on during the offseason, not during game week. Rivers was unable to practice this offseason, as his foot injury bothered him all the way up until the time of training camp (and some rumors are that it continued to bother him during the season).When Rivers can step up into the pocket confidently, he throws with good zip and excellent accuracy. With the OL problems this season, he's faced pressure this year that he hadn't ever had to adjust to last year. The left side of the OL was consistently amazing last year. At times this season it has been awful. As a result, he got into the habit of throwing off his back foot too much this year (sometimes even when there was protection) instead of stepping into the pocket and firing away. Rivers' mechanical problems only occur when he is taken out of his comfort zone, and that's not a problem he had to deal with in 2006.(When I talk about his "mechanical problems" I am not talking about his delivery. He has an unorthodox throwing motion, but it works for him. It is kind of a cross between Dan Marino and Bernie Kosar, and it is the source of his quick release, so I wouldn't try to change that. Instead, I am talking about his footwork and his tendency to hold the ball too low instead of keeping it tight to his chest. When he is playing well, he holds the ball high and steps into his throws. When he struggles with his accuracy, he often has sloppy footwork and also drops the ball down too low, which lengthens his throwing motion. He does this mostly when he has to move around in the pocket.) The other change from 2006 to 2007 is that the team had much less success running on first downs this season. As a result, Rivers was in third-and-long situations more often, which makes the passing game harder.Overall, I'm not so sure that the 2006 Philip Rivers would have done any better under 2007's circumstances than the 2007 Philip Rivers did. So saying that Rivers "regressed" may not quite be accurate. I think saying that he was "exposed" is probably closer to the mark, as his weaknesses were kept hidden better last season when the OL was so much more consistent.Either way, I think he's a very good QB already, and will continue to get better with more offseason tutoring from (QB coach) Ramsdell.
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Football Jones
Footballguy
Thanks, MT.The biggest problem I have with Rivers is he too often doesn't display a quick release &/or adequate arm strength. He just breaks down too much for my liking & I don't believe he's the kind of QB who can consistently help you win. He's looking better, but my guess is it's only a streak (he definitely can get hot). Another strong week & I'll be a little less pessimistic, though.
We'll see.
tommyGunZ
Footballguy
Wow. Do you think the Chargers weren't getting help from Philip consistently during the 27 games they have won in the 35 games he's started?Thanks, MT.The biggest problem I have with Rivers is he too often doesn't display a quick release &/or adequate arm strength. He just breaks down too much for my liking & I don't believe he's the kind of QB who can consistently help you win. He's looking better, but my guess is it's only a streak (he definitely can get hot). Another strong week & I'll be a little less pessimistic, though.
Football Jones
Footballguy
Yes, he helped at times. I stand by my comment in my previous post, though. I think we should agree to disagree.Wow. Do you think the Chargers weren't getting help from Philip consistently during the 27 games they have won in the 35 games he's started?Thanks, MT.The biggest problem I have with Rivers is he too often doesn't display a quick release &/or adequate arm strength. He just breaks down too much for my liking & I don't believe he's the kind of QB who can consistently help you win. He's looking better, but my guess is it's only a streak (he definitely can get hot). Another strong week & I'll be a little less pessimistic, though.
Tau837
Footballguy
He was 18th in QB rating this regular season, at 82.4, just behind Derek Anderson at 82.5. Last season, he was 8th, at 92.0. He definitely regressed statistically this season, as discussed throughout the thread. But if one is going to use QB rating, he has already shown he can be very good for an entire season. I believe last season was a better representation of his ability than this season, and I think he'll be better next year.He will improve from this year's experience, and will have another offseason to work with the coaching staff and should be more comfortable in Norv's variation of the offense next year. And, as MT pointed out, hopefully he will have better health this offseason to enable him to better work on some of his fundamentals and thus improve his footwork.
Gold Plated Nails
Footballguy
Over the last 8 games (all wins) his QB rating I believe is over 95. In the playoffs even higher. His first month was dreadful and really brought down his ranking. It is a long season, much better to be peaking now and playing crappy in Sept then vice versa.
Tau837
Footballguy
I agree he is peaking at the right time. However, check these regular season splits for this year:Games 1-8: 82.9Gold Plated Nails said:
Games 9-16: 82.0
This looks consistent, but this doesn't:
September: 76.0
October: 130.1
November: 68.8
December: 85.8
He was either really good or really not this year. He had 7 regular season games with a QB rating of 101.7 or better, but the other 9 were all 74.2 or worse.
Like I said, I think he'll get better going forward.
Gold Plated Nails
Footballguy
The 8 games I was refering to were the last 8 games, this includes the 2 playoff games.
Mr. PadresLakers
Footballguy
Tau837
Footballguy
I know, and that is a great run that shows what he is capable of. I was just showing data from the regular season that IMO more fairly illustrates his season. I mean, going back exactly 8 games, including the 2 postseason games, conveniently cuts off after this 3 game stretch: 49.4, 30.6, 67.6.
BoltBacker
Footballguy
Football Jones... when do you think the last time he wasn't "hot" was?
Football Jones
Footballguy
He's played well lately. Not sure what else I can add to my arguement. At this point in time, his body of work indicates to me he's an average QB (that's played well lately). Do I think he's a bad QB?. No. Do I think he'll revert to a more mediocre level of play in the future (around 80 - 85 QB rating)? Yes.
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BoltBacker
Footballguy
I guess my point is if you think the guy has just been "hot" for the last five weeks in a row... maybe he's just better than you thought he was.
Gold Plated Nails
Footballguy
I know it's a bit of a longshot, but if Rivers plays (with a torn acl) and the Chargers win, can this thread be locked forever?
Jeff Pasquino
Footballguy
No judgment should be passed on him from today's effort alone - only if he had a huge day could you really make a statement.He didn't, but you can put some of that on the Pats and some on his health.For Rivers' sake (and Chargers fans) you hope that he gets better coaching for his footwork and decision-making before next September.
hats off to Rivers today.
obviously there are a lot of media clips out there that don't paint him in a favorable light, but he took a big step today to becoming a respected teammate and a team leader. this will go a long way towards shedding any "spoiled brat athlete" image he's manufactured for himself to this point.
obviously there are a lot of media clips out there that don't paint him in a favorable light, but he took a big step today to becoming a respected teammate and a team leader. this will go a long way towards shedding any "spoiled brat athlete" image he's manufactured for himself to this point.
I just watched River's post game press conference. He said all the right things. Was gracious. Avoided the opportunity to throw a teammate (Chambers) under the bus even though the media opened the door for him. He talked about how much they've grown from this season, game, experience, etc and he seemed like a pretty likable, respectable guy.
gump
Footballguy
I'm new to this thread...but...having followed Rivers for 10 years now...I must say...
Rivers has been a warrior since high school. Whether or not he is considered a success in the NFL will depend on his results...not his heart. There is no question he has as much of that as anyone.
We'll see...but my guess is he is a solid starter for 12 years and ends up a very popular and well thought of player.
Rivers has been a warrior since high school. Whether or not he is considered a success in the NFL will depend on his results...not his heart. There is no question he has as much of that as anyone.
We'll see...but my guess is he is a solid starter for 12 years and ends up a very popular and well thought of player.
Riffraff
Footballguy
He was injured. Why does this blow you away?
omally
Footballguy
He has always been a respectable guy. He has always been known as a straight laced guy, who doesn't drink, doesn't smoke, doesn't cuss, loves God, loves his family, and loves football. It cracks me up how many thin skinned fans are disgruntled over Rivers talking a little smack with them, and the guy isn't foul mouthed or rude, but they act like he just cussed out the entire stands. "Atta baby". That's some harsh talking. He is very much a people person, and loves to talk. He is made out by fans to be some jerk with an attitude problem. Rivers is probably the nicest player on the Chargers team.
dickey moe
Fingerpicker
He came back the next year to have a phenomenal season. You had a sure thing with Brees, and I'd argue the Chargers would've made it to at least one Super Bowl with Brees at the helm.
Mr. PadresLakers
Footballguy
A QB coming off a serious shoulder injury is never a sure thing. It's not really a hard concept to understand.
timschochet
Footballguy
If Rivers and Manning can continue to play like they have lately, then the 2004 NFL draft, featuring Eli, Philip, and Big Ben, may become the one of the best QB drafts in NFL history.
gump
Footballguy
Marino, Elway, and Kelly all over again...
tommyGunZ
Footballguy
Brees was a Charger for 5 years and didn't make it to any Super Bowls (or win any playoff games for that matter) while Brees was the QB. Not sure why you think he'd have suddenly become a Super Bowl QB in year 6 and 7.
tommyGunZ
Footballguy
Fixed
tommyGunZ
Footballguy
Yeah Rivers is a very good QB.But man, did you see Ryan today? He made some insane throws. White dropped another TD in the endzone. He throws before the WR even makes his break. His timing is really impressive for a rookie.
Anyway, pretty lame bump. Rivers is having a great year.
tommyGunZ
Footballguy
Very impressed with Ryan today, and all year. Falcons hit that one out of the park. Outstanding job turning that franchise around in 1 year.
For years I've been a Vick apologist but White's emergence this year and Ryan's work as a rookie have changed my mind. Vick really did suck.
For years I've been a Vick apologist but White's emergence this year and Ryan's work as a rookie have changed my mind. Vick really did suck.
money.never.sleeps
Footballguy
6 games of 3 TDs. Not bad. :X
EDIT : At the moment though he's killing my chances at getting to one my league Championships.
EDIT : At the moment though he's killing my chances at getting to one my league Championships.
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