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Moe Green

Philip Rivers Is Terrible

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For all of the beating Norv takes in this forum, in the press, and from fans (including Charger fans), he has ONE bad playoff loss, the home loss against the Jets in 2009. The Jets beat San Diego 17-14. Nate Kaeding, the most accurate FG kicker in the history of the NFL at the time, was 0-3 on FGs, from 36, 57, and 40 yards. Probably one of the biggest flukes in playoff history, yet Norv gets the blame. :thumbdown:

I think the problem with that game is that the Chargers look completely unprepared to play. They were winning 7-0 at the half, but considering how bad the Jets looked early on, had the Chargers been on their game and ready to play, it would have been over by half. I remember hearing reports about some Chargers players being out partying on the nights before the game. It seemed like the Chargers were too cocky and figured they could just show up and beat the Jets. Not putting that all on Turner, but a head coach does have to keep the team centered and focused on a two-week layoff.

As fo Rivers, I can't figure it out either. He is suddenly playing mediocre ball at the QB position. I don't think anyone saw this coming.

Certainly Norv deserves some blame when his team loses a home playoff game, but the Jets were the #1 scoring defense in the NFL that season. It's not particularly surprising that the Chargers struggled on offense. But had Kaeding made 2/3 FGs, the Bolts would have scored ~ 50% more pts that the Jets allowed per game that season, and would have won the game. And those FG's were almost chippies. Kaeding is automatic from 36 and 40 yards historically.
And Schottenheimer got fired because Kaeding missed a FG. Unfortuantely Turner is still around.

Also note that in addition to one bad playoff loss, he missed the playoffs in a weak division due almost entirely to bad coaching.

So are you backing off the criticism of Norv taking over the 14-2 team that you were making earlier in the thread?

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For all of the beating Norv takes in this forum, in the press, and from fans (including Charger fans), he has ONE bad playoff loss, the home loss against the Jets in 2009. The Jets beat San Diego 17-14. Nate Kaeding, the most accurate FG kicker in the history of the NFL at the time, was 0-3 on FGs, from 36, 57, and 40 yards. Probably one of the biggest flukes in playoff history, yet Norv gets the blame. :thumbdown:

I think the problem with that game is that the Chargers look completely unprepared to play. They were winning 7-0 at the half, but considering how bad the Jets looked early on, had the Chargers been on their game and ready to play, it would have been over by half. I remember hearing reports about some Chargers players being out partying on the nights before the game. It seemed like the Chargers were too cocky and figured they could just show up and beat the Jets. Not putting that all on Turner, but a head coach does have to keep the team centered and focused on a two-week layoff.

As fo Rivers, I can't figure it out either. He is suddenly playing mediocre ball at the QB position. I don't think anyone saw this coming.

Certainly Norv deserves some blame when his team loses a home playoff game, but the Jets were the #1 scoring defense in the NFL that season. It's not particularly surprising that the Chargers struggled on offense. But had Kaeding made 2/3 FGs, the Bolts would have scored ~ 50% more pts that the Jets allowed per game that season, and would have won the game. And those FG's were almost chippies. Kaeding is automatic from 36 and 40 yards historically.
And Schottenheimer got fired because Kaeding missed a FG. Unfortuantely Turner is still around.

Also note that in addition to one bad playoff loss, he missed the playoffs in a weak division due almost entirely to bad coaching.

So are you backing off the criticism of Norv taking over the 14-2 team that you were making earlier in the thread?
Uh, no, I am making the point that Turner took over a good team, still has a good team, yet missed the playoffs with that good team because he didn't have them ready to play. He has a good record as coach of the Chargers because he has had a better team than any other Charger coach has had for his coaching career. Norv has cost them probably 2 wins a year.

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Difference between Rivers this year and last year? Easy--his targets.

The Chargers should cut VJax and Floyd, and IR Gates. Bring back Arijyiotutu-somethingorother, and those other stiffs he had last year. Buster Davis!!

Rivers apparently is a great QB when his receivers suck.

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For all of the beating Norv takes in this forum, in the press, and from fans (including Charger fans), he has ONE bad playoff loss, the home loss against the Jets in 2009. The Jets beat San Diego 17-14. Nate Kaeding, the most accurate FG kicker in the history of the NFL at the time, was 0-3 on FGs, from 36, 57, and 40 yards. Probably one of the biggest flukes in playoff history, yet Norv gets the blame. :thumbdown:

I think the problem with that game is that the Chargers look completely unprepared to play. They were winning 7-0 at the half, but considering how bad the Jets looked early on, had the Chargers been on their game and ready to play, it would have been over by half. I remember hearing reports about some Chargers players being out partying on the nights before the game. It seemed like the Chargers were too cocky and figured they could just show up and beat the Jets. Not putting that all on Turner, but a head coach does have to keep the team centered and focused on a two-week layoff.

As fo Rivers, I can't figure it out either. He is suddenly playing mediocre ball at the QB position. I don't think anyone saw this coming.

Certainly Norv deserves some blame when his team loses a home playoff game, but the Jets were the #1 scoring defense in the NFL that season. It's not particularly surprising that the Chargers struggled on offense. But had Kaeding made 2/3 FGs, the Bolts would have scored ~ 50% more pts that the Jets allowed per game that season, and would have won the game. And those FG's were almost chippies. Kaeding is automatic from 36 and 40 yards historically.
And Schottenheimer got fired because Kaeding missed a FG. Unfortuantely Turner is still around.

Also note that in addition to one bad playoff loss, he missed the playoffs in a weak division due almost entirely to bad coaching.

So are you backing off the criticism of Norv taking over the 14-2 team that you were making earlier in the thread?
Uh, no, I am making the point that Turner took over a good team, still has a good team, yet missed the playoffs with that good team because he didn't have them ready to play. He has a good record as coach of the Chargers because he has had a better team than any other Charger coach has had for his coaching career. Norv has cost them probably 2 wins a year.
And when he had that team, he took them to the AFC Championship game, on the road in Boston, and lost to NE with Rivers coming off of surgery and no LT.

Since 2007, he has not had a "great team" IMO, due to poor drafting, injuries (Merriman's career essentially being over after '07), head cases, and LT getting old. Norv has won the AFC West in 3 of his 4 years, won playoff games in 2 of those 4, and has the Bolts at 4-2 and overwhelming favorites to win the West again and go to the playoffs.

But lets not let W's and L's sway opinion. Apparently what matters w/re to Norv's record is that he didn't replicate Marty's 2006 14-2 record with a completely different team in '08 and '10.

Edited by tommyGunZ

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Williamson on ESPN thinks hes injured and hodge chimed in how its his worst season or somethin like that. No link on my phone

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Fortunately Merriman flamed out early or Accorsi's career would be defined by making one of the worst trades in NFL history. Since it's really just turned out to be Eli vs. Rivers, it was just a bad one, not historically bad.

He's retired and been retired a while now. He was George Young's boy for much of his career (that we speak of) and it's his drafting/scouting ability that many credit as to why the Giants are phenomenal at drafting DEs. One of the last things he did was draft Kiwi when everyone balked at the idea. Kiwi was a very impressive young DE until Coughlin had the bright idea to play him at LB and became infatuated with it. He was

Accorsi is the only GM I know of that ever went to a message board or newsgroup and chatted with fans. We should all praise the guy for that and hope today's GMs listen.

The Giants went from the BB and BP years to Handley and in a real downward spiral til Accorsi came along and started helping with drafts in 93 or so. He had been the guy that somehow built a winner in Cleveland yet they let him get away and all he could do was help Young, not be the actual GM....amazing teams weren't falling all over for him. The Browns seemed to go from great old team to Kosar/accorsi's teams and everything in between was bad. The guy really didn't get enough credit...ever

Accorsi did not build the Browns. Most of the talent was already on the Browns when Accorsi showed up in 1985. They had their best year in 1986, at 12-4, and then bad draft after bad draft slowly eroded the talent level. Marty realized Accorsi sucked at being a GM so he wanted total control to draft the players. When Marty didn't get it, he knew the writing was on the wall and got out of town.

The team imploded under the weight of Accorsi's horrible drafts in 1990, going 3-13.

As a Browns fan for years, I remember all of us constantly complaining that Accorsi failed to shore up the offensive line. It surprised NOBODY that Kosar suffered a horrible arm injury in 1988. We could see it coming. He was getting killed back there.

Heckert BTW is actually doing a phenomenal job. His first two drafts have been wonderful. With the Browns luck, Heckert will get struck by lightning on his way to work though. i think that's the only way the Browns franchise doesn't turn around in 2-3 more years.

I don't agree entirely. It's not easy to recall everything from back then.

He takes over in 1985 and rolls til 1992 and they make the playoffs most of those years...one sec, at PFR, five of those years.

So you're beating him up for Carson not working out and having an interim coach...OK I guess every GM deserves that IF he hired him. Did he? Or was it the owner? I remember Carson with a top Jets defense (if not actually, then by reputation for their sack exchange stuff) and why not get a chance to coach?

If he is the goat that hired Carson, is he a genius or wrong or given a pass on hiring BB? What's the thinking there?

I have stated a thousand times that I believed BB killed that franchise when he benched Kosar for Testaverde. (Been there done that quick summary, anyone other than the guy that threw a million INTs would have been a better decision)

Re-drafts, I do see names, plenty of them like Metcalf, Slaughter etc. Dawkins throws me was he really that old?

You wrote about his choice of linemen and I flat out don't see that he drafted many. He did draft Winters who played in 231 games for the Browns. Surely a fine pick.

1990 and 1991(you had me focus there) seem like fine drafts because I recognize names.

I DO see gaps and holes. I can't recall Randy Hilliard but Dalton of the Saints. There's a bunch of who was that? type bad picks, no doubt. The thing is though, every team does that.

Eric Metcalf was a phenomenally useful player (for Atlanta too ) the rarity that could play WR or RB and do both well. Wasn't Turner the safety for a long time?

Leroy Hoard is like a classic Browns name to me. Burnett and Pleasant were probably supposed to be more (as every DL is the second coming) but they had lengthy careers which make them good picks.

Are you mocking Touchdown Tommy Vardell? Does the dawg pound rescind your membership if you do that?

What about the other Michael Jackson?

There's enough above that he didn't stink at drafting.

Here's my thinking on the Browns-possibly the most unbelievable misery I've seen was when they made the championship game twice(under Accorsi mind you) and both times fumbled away the ball when they had a chance to win. Holy ...I couldn't imagine that. Accorsi could have been a scapegoat. Marty proved he couldn't win the big games with the Chiefs (and Montana) but Accorsi curiously had a Giants team fall just shy too. The Browns were an odd team. Everyone adored Marino for his million yards a year he threw for to the wonderful Marks brothers and here was the other U of Miami guy that didn't throw for all that many yards but almost never made a mistake. Ya'all loved him like few sports icons I've ever read about and in a way that doesn't really happen in today's NFL. He was your Elway, your Sweetness, your big star you guys adored.

OK we lost two nailbiters with dopey fumbles and the new coach is going to replace our legend with this guy that threw INT after INT for Tampa? I get the frustration, I sooo get it. (Didn't he draft Fridge's younger brother?)

BB brought ya Pepper Johnson who had over 200 tackles one year and was a machine at MLB, but really didn't do much good there. He goes onto greatness with the Pats while you either don't have a team or are believing that Couch to KJ is THE connection for the next decade and woohoo you got the top back in the draft named William Green.Even when you get a team there's an almost ghost like Staph Infection epidemic haunting the team and taking away good players. Dude I so get the frustration.

I think it's misguided at Ernie is all

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And Schottenheimer got fired because Kaeding missed a FG. Unfortuantely Turner is still around.

This is false. Schottenheimer got fired for insubordination. He and A.J. Smith didn't get along, Marty forced the issue, and the owner sided with Smith.

Also note that in addition to one bad playoff loss, he missed the playoffs in a weak division due almost entirely to bad coaching.

Norv didn't cause the holdouts of Jackson or McNeill last year. Norv didn't cause Ryan Mathews to sustain a high ankle sprain in week 2 last year. Norv didn't hurt Gates, Floyd, Crayton, Davis, Goodman, and however many others in their receiving corps who got hurt last year. If any of those things were different, they may have made the playoffs. How is any of that due to bad coaching?Norv is accountable for those results as the head coach, but they weren't all due to him and his coaching.

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I am making the point that Turner took over a good team, still has a good team, yet missed the playoffs with that good team because he didn't have them ready to play. He has a good record as coach of the Chargers because he has had a better team than any other Charger coach has had for his coaching career. Norv has cost them probably 2 wins a year.

Norv is 45-25 as head coach of the Chargers. You seem to be saying that he should be 54-16, or something like that... I gather you think most coaches would have a record like that had they taken over instead of Norv. Is that right? Other than obvious choices like Belichick and Tomlin, exactly how many coaches in the NFL today do you think would have won 50+ games in Norv's place?I think you grossly overestimate the number of good coaches in the NFL.

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Also note that in addition to one bad playoff loss, he missed the playoffs in a weak division due almost entirely to bad coaching.

Norv didn't cause the holdouts of Jackson or McNeill last year. Norv didn't cause Ryan Mathews to sustain a high ankle sprain in week 2 last year. Norv didn't hurt Gates, Floyd, Crayton, Davis, Goodman, and however many others in their receiving corps who got hurt last year. If any of those things were different, they may have made the playoffs. How is any of that due to bad coaching?Norv is accountable for those results as the head coach, but they weren't all due to him and his coaching.
I actually think calber is right on this one, surprisingly. They did miss the playoffs due, I'd say entirely, to bad coaching. But it was the special teams coach, not the HC(who was in charge of the offense btw). If AJ cost SD the playoffs last season it was because he didn't fire the ST coach about 4 games into the season when it was obvious that it was a debacle and losing games... while the offense kept humming along fine.

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I am making the point that Turner took over a good team, still has a good team, yet missed the playoffs with that good team because he didn't have them ready to play. He has a good record as coach of the Chargers because he has had a better team than any other Charger coach has had for his coaching career. Norv has cost them probably 2 wins a year.

Norv is 45-25 as head coach of the Chargers. You seem to be saying that he should be 54-16, or something like that... I gather you think most coaches would have a record like that had they taken over instead of Norv. Is that right? Other than obvious choices like Belichick and Tomlin, exactly how many coaches in the NFL today do you think would have won 50+ games in Norv's place?I think you grossly overestimate the number of good coaches in the NFL.
I think you grossly overestimate the number of good coaches in San Diego.

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Norv is 45-25 as head coach of the Chargers. You seem to be saying that he should be 54-16, or something like that... I gather you think most coaches would have a record like that had they taken over instead of Norv. Is that right? Other than obvious choices like Belichick and Tomlin, exactly how many coaches in the NFL today do you think would have won 50+ games in Norv's place?I think you grossly overestimate the number of good coaches in the NFL.

Jim Caldwell is 24-15 as head coach of the Colts (which is only slightly worse than Turner's record with the Chargers). If we are judging coaches on wins and losses, can we assume that you consider Caldwell almost as good of a head coach as Turner? Just asking.Ultimately, W/L records can be skewed by what shape a team is in when a coach took over. Turner took over a team that had just gone 14-2, so keeping a winning record wasn't overly difficult. On the flip side, I think most would say that Jim Schwartz is a good head coach, even though his W/L record of 13-26 might say otherwise. But that would be ignoring that he took over for an 0-16 team. So, just like Schwartz is better than his overall W/L record, Norv is probably not as good as his W/L record in San Diego would indicate. I think Turner has gotten better as a head coach than he was in Washington, but he still isn't near the top when discussing best head coaches in the league. And while I think his crack on Rex Ryan last week was awesome, I do think a handful or two of coaches might have gotten the Chargers to the Super Bowl by now. I know you are gonna ask, "Well, which of those coaches were available when Norv was hired," but that is kind of missing the point. Edited by Ghost Rider

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I am making the point that Turner took over a good team, still has a good team, yet missed the playoffs with that good team because he didn't have them ready to play. He has a good record as coach of the Chargers because he has had a better team than any other Charger coach has had for his coaching career. Norv has cost them probably 2 wins a year.

Norv is 45-25 as head coach of the Chargers. You seem to be saying that he should be 54-16, or something like that... I gather you think most coaches would have a record like that had they taken over instead of Norv. Is that right? Other than obvious choices like Belichick and Tomlin, exactly how many coaches in the NFL today do you think would have won 50+ games in Norv's place?I think you grossly overestimate the number of good coaches in the NFL.
I think you grossly overestimate the number of good coaches in San Diego.
I haven't said Norv is a good coach. I have simply said he isn't as bad as everyone thinks.My point is that it would take a good coach to have a better record in the same situation, and there aren't that many good coaches in the NFL. The way people (especially you) bash Norv implies that he is one of the few worst coaches in the league, which suggests that almost any coach would have done better. I think that is wrong.

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Norv is 45-25 as head coach of the Chargers. You seem to be saying that he should be 54-16, or something like that... I gather you think most coaches would have a record like that had they taken over instead of Norv. Is that right? Other than obvious choices like Belichick and Tomlin, exactly how many coaches in the NFL today do you think would have won 50+ games in Norv's place?I think you grossly overestimate the number of good coaches in the NFL.

Jim Caldwell is 24-15 as head coach of the Colts (which is only slightly worse than Turner's record with the Chargers). If we are judging coaches on wins and losses, can we assume that you consider Caldwell almost as good of a head coach as Turner? Just asking.Ultimately, W/L records can be skewed by what shape a team is in when a coach took over. Turner took over a team that had just gone 14-2, so keeping a winning record wasn't overly difficult. On the flip side, I think most would say that Jim Schwartz is a good head coach, even though his W/L record of 13-26 might say otherwise. But that would be ignoring that he took over for an 0-16 team. So, just like Schwartz is better than his overall W/L record, Norv is probably not as good as his W/L record in San Diego would indicate. I think Turner has gotten better as a head coach than he was in Washington, but he still isn't near the top when discussing best head coaches in the league. And while I think his crack on Rex Ryan last week was awesome, I do think a handful or two of coaches might have gotten the Chargers to the Super Bowl by now. I know you are gonna ask, "Well, which of those coaches were available when Norv was hired," but that is kind of missing the point.
1. I agree that win-loss records can be influenced by what shape the team is in when a coach takes over.2. Further, they can be influenced by how the roster is managed during the years a coach is the head coach. When people bash Norv, IMO they underestimate the roster turnover that has happened since that 14-2 team. It has been a completely different team for a while now.3. I don't think Caldwell is as good of a coach as Norv, and I don't think their track records are as comparable as you suggest. First off, Caldwell has coached a much smaller sample size of games. Give him a couple more years (if he is still a head coach), and it will be a proper comparison. As of right now, it looks like his record was inflated due to having the best QB in NFL history on his team up until this season. Norv has never had that, in San Diego or anywhere else.4. I agree Schwartz is a good coach. As you point out by contrasting him vs. Norv, win-loss record isn't a perfect measure. It is possible to be a good coach with a poor record, and it is possible to be a poor coach with a good record. Context matters.5. I never suggested Norv is near the top of the best head coaches in the league. I just don't think he is near the bottom, which is what many (especially CalBear) imply with their overly harsh criticism of him.

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5. I never suggested Norv is near the top of the best head coaches in the league. I just don't think he is near the bottom, which is what many (especially CalBear) imply with their overly harsh criticism of him.

Turner is mediocre. San Diego had access to a coach who would have won more games than Turner has: Marty Schottenheimer.

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5. I never suggested Norv is near the top of the best head coaches in the league. I just don't think he is near the bottom, which is what many (especially CalBear) imply with their overly harsh criticism of him.

Turner is mediocre. San Diego had access to a coach who would have won more games than Turner has: Marty Schottenheimer.
More regular season games, perhaps. But there was a reason why Marty never got anything done in the playoffs. He could never develop a game plan that progressed beyond:Run rightRun leftRun up the middlePunt

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5. I never suggested Norv is near the top of the best head coaches in the league. I just don't think he is near the bottom, which is what many (especially CalBear) imply with their overly harsh criticism of him.

Turner is mediocre. San Diego had access to a coach who would have won more games than Turner has: Marty Schottenheimer.
If you think that is true -- that Marty would have won games at a rate better than Norv's .643 winning percentage -- how do you explain the fact that no other NFL team has hired him?Are you just that much smarter than all of the NFL GMs?

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5. I never suggested Norv is near the top of the best head coaches in the league. I just don't think he is near the bottom, which is what many (especially CalBear) imply with their overly harsh criticism of him.

Turner is mediocre. San Diego had access to a coach who would have won more games than Turner has: Marty Schottenheimer.
More regular season games, perhaps. But there was a reason why Marty never got anything done in the playoffs.
He actually just got his first championship ring, coaching the Destroyers to their first UFL title.

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I thought this thread was about Rivers.

Seriously. Rivers has looked pretty bad, but with the return of Gates at full speed next week, plus not facing the Jets, I'm wondering if Rivers could have a major bounce-back game against KC. Could be a good time to buy low. I would think Rivers owners are pretty frustrated right now and he could probably be had on the cheap.

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I thought this thread was about Rivers.

Seriously. Rivers has looked pretty bad, but with the return of Gates at full speed next week, plus not facing the Jets, I'm wondering if Rivers could have a major bounce-back game against KC. Could be a good time to buy low. I would think Rivers owners are pretty frustrated right now and he could probably be had on the cheap.
As a frustrated Rivers' owner, I'm giving him one more shot this week against the Chief D--that said, I watched the first meeting and was unimpressed with River's performance. With Gates back this week, and on the big stage, I'm hoping he lights up a very beatable secondary. He is probably the biggest surprise of the 2011 season, as many of us expected him to put up truly elite numbers this year. I had him pegged for a legitimate MVP candidate. I honestly thought he was the safest of all the big name guys entering the season, but boy was I wrong. Edited by FGITLOTR

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Williamson on ESPN thinks hes injured and hodge chimed in how its his worst season or somethin like that. No link on my phone

Maybe he's hurt, but I can't tell from watching him play other than he's been off on some throws he usually does better with. Maybe that's enough to say he's hurt somehow? To me his reads have been bad way more often than any other time since he became a starter. It just seems like he's not operating at the same level mentally this season as he has in previous years. Really strange, that botched 2 minute drill is a perfect example of this. He just seems really off. I was hoping the bye week would let him refocus, but that didn't seem to happen - for him or the team in general.

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Williamson on ESPN thinks hes injured and hodge chimed in how its his worst season or somethin like that. No link on my phone

Maybe he's hurt, but I can't tell from watching him play other than he's been off on some throws he usually does better with. Maybe that's enough to say he's hurt somehow? To me his reads have been bad way more often than any other time since he became a starter. It just seems like he's not operating at the same level mentally this season as he has in previous years. Really strange, that botched 2 minute drill is a perfect example of this. He just seems really off. I was hoping the bye week would let him refocus, but that didn't seem to happen - for him or the team in general.
It seems like he has been getting pressured a lot this year. Is he under more pressure than in previous years? If so, maybe that's a factor.Or maybe something is going on in his personal life, like a problem with one of his kids...?Otherwise, I don't get it, and I have to assume he will start playing better soon.

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Williamson on ESPN thinks hes injured and hodge chimed in how its his worst season or somethin like that. No link on my phone

Maybe he's hurt, but I can't tell from watching him play other than he's been off on some throws he usually does better with. Maybe that's enough to say he's hurt somehow? To me his reads have been bad way more often than any other time since he became a starter. It just seems like he's not operating at the same level mentally this season as he has in previous years. Really strange, that botched 2 minute drill is a perfect example of this. He just seems really off. I was hoping the bye week would let him refocus, but that didn't seem to happen - for him or the team in general.
i forget, but didnt he play hurt almost a whole year before and nobody knew anything until the end of the season or something along those lines? Have they hidden an injury before is what im askin

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It seems like he has been getting pressured a lot this year. Is he under more pressure than in previous years? If so, maybe that's a factor.

I strongly disagree with this. His entire career, save for maybe his first year with Tomlinson taking all the attention of the defense, Rivers has been spectacular at dealing with pressure in the pocket. It's been one of his strengths as he's under pressure his entire career. The only player that does better in the face of pressure is Big Ben.I've thought all season he looks like he's putting pressure on himself to thread the needle when most of the season he really hasn't had to. I understand making some mistakes when you are on the road in NE/NYJ. The mistakes I'm talking about are the ones he's made against KC and den. SD was controlling those games if it wasn't for the untimely turnover. It's a little ironic that he finally did throw the ball away instead of forcing it..... on 4th down of the last drive of the game.Bottom line is he's a great player having a sub par season. If this is the worst he'll play I can live with it knowing just how well he can play when he's "on". For the people that might be exaggerating just how poorly he's playing this year I think his passer rating this season is almost the same as Brees passer rating over his cumulative career with SD. Rivers is playing much better now than Brees did before they drafted Rivers, and that's not even open for debate. There's a ton of revisionist history when it comes to the Brees/Rivers situation. As usual the "experts" on what was going on in SD eight years ago aren't Charger fans in the first place.

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It seems like he has been getting pressured a lot this year. Is he under more pressure than in previous years? If so, maybe that's a factor.

I strongly disagree with this. His entire career, save for maybe his first year with Tomlinson taking all the attention of the defense, Rivers has been spectacular at dealing with pressure in the pocket. It's been one of his strengths as he's under pressure his entire career. The only player that does better in the face of pressure is Big Ben.
I agree with BoltBacker. I haven't noticed more pressure this year compared to previous seasons. If anything I think the line has done a bit better this year than the last few overall.Something's just not right upstairs with him. He even looks different on the sidelines, not as animated/involved as previous seasons.

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What is up with Rivers and Jackson the last few games? Not targeting him? Over/under thrown? Revis-Island? Does Gates coming back open things up for Vjax down the field or does it just mean less targets?

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What is up with Rivers and Jackson the last few games? Not targeting him? Over/under thrown? Revis-Island? Does Gates coming back open things up for Vjax down the field or does it just mean less targets?

Jackson was targeted enough last week. Sometimes Revis had solid coverage, some Rivers missed, some Jackson didn't make a play on. The whole offense is very fitful right now. It hasn't looked anywhere near as good as it did last year, except I think the line is playing a bit better. #17 just isn't himself right now.

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Maybe its just me, I'm no scout, but there are times where his throwing technique looks poor and he struggles to get the ball out for a 20 yd pass.... it doesn't seem like it gets talked about much but maybe there's something to it. Weird thing is, a few plays later he can throw a bomb 50 yards downfield. Vincent Jackson also needs more help around him, Floyd is NOT the answer and Losing Sproles was a big blow.

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Maybe its just me, I'm no scout, but there are times where his throwing technique looks poor and he struggles to get the ball out for a 20 yd pass.... it doesn't seem like it gets talked about much but maybe there's something to it. Weird thing is, a few plays later he can throw a bomb 50 yards downfield. Vincent Jackson also needs more help around him, Floyd is NOT the answer and Losing Sproles was a big blow.

Losing Sproles was not a big blow. I posted on this earlier in the thread.Rivers has always had an unusual throwing motion, but it has always worked well for him. I don't think it is any different this year than in the last 5 years he has been successful. That said, I am on the east coast, and I haven't seen all of his games this year.

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Maybe its just me, I'm no scout, but there are times where his throwing technique looks poor and he struggles to get the ball out for a 20 yd pass.... it doesn't seem like it gets talked about much but maybe there's something to it. Weird thing is, a few plays later he can throw a bomb 50 yards downfield. Vincent Jackson also needs more help around him, Floyd is NOT the answer and Losing Sproles was a big blow.

Losing Sproles was not a big blow. I posted on this earlier in the thread.Rivers has always had an unusual throwing motion, but it has always worked well for him. I don't think it is any different this year than in the last 5 years he has been successful. That said, I am on the east coast, and I haven't seen all of his games this year.
His motion is the same as it's always been. Floyd's good when he plays, but he's made of glass so you can't depend on him. Basically you're burning a roster spot on half a player (at best) and you can't confidently game plan for him being in there. I really think they should look at Owens. Between him and Floyd you could have a pretty high quality player at WR2.

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It's impossible to dig thru all of your quibbling. Is Rivers playing injured or isn't he?

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It seems like he has been getting pressured a lot this year. Is he under more pressure than in previous years? If so, maybe that's a factor.

I strongly disagree with this. His entire career, save for maybe his first year with Tomlinson taking all the attention of the defense, Rivers has been spectacular at dealing with pressure in the pocket. It's been one of his strengths as he's under pressure his entire career. The only player that does better in the face of pressure is Big Ben.
I agree with BoltBacker. I haven't noticed more pressure this year compared to previous seasons. If anything I think the line has done a bit better this year than the last few overall.Something's just not right upstairs with him. He even looks different on the sidelines, not as animated/involved as previous seasons.
OK, I wasn't sure, that's why I asked. Could it be the playcalling? As an example, I posted earlier in the thread that through the first 5 games, the RBs were targeted about 50% more than in previous seasons. Is that due to him checking down more due to pressure, due to Gates being in and out of the lineup, or due to different playcalling?

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It seems like he has been getting pressured a lot this year. Is he under more pressure than in previous years? If so, maybe that's a factor.

I strongly disagree with this. His entire career, save for maybe his first year with Tomlinson taking all the attention of the defense, Rivers has been spectacular at dealing with pressure in the pocket. It's been one of his strengths as he's under pressure his entire career. The only player that does better in the face of pressure is Big Ben.
I agree with BoltBacker. I haven't noticed more pressure this year compared to previous seasons. If anything I think the line has done a bit better this year than the last few overall.Something's just not right upstairs with him. He even looks different on the sidelines, not as animated/involved as previous seasons.
OK, I wasn't sure, that's why I asked. Could it be the playcalling? As an example, I posted earlier in the thread that through the first 5 games, the RBs were targeted about 50% more than in previous seasons. Is that due to him checking down more due to pressure, due to Gates being in and out of the lineup, or due to different playcalling?
If the backs are being targeted 50% more, that's checkdowns. No team gets Floyd and VJax back, and increases the throws to the backs, especially with Sproles gone. Think I watched 4 Charger games this year. His passing doesn't look right. I can't say if it's an injury he is hiding, or speculate on 'why', but it just doesn't look right. Accuracy is way off. He has that weird throwing motion, but if you have a quick release and are accurate, I don't care how the ball comes out. No one complained about it last year, seems a bit odd to bring it up now. Unless that motion caused undue stress on his arm long term or something, which I have never heard. He carried that team last year, putting up numbers throwing to a bunch of receivers that have since been cut. Now he has two nice backs, has a couple of small forwards out at WR, and he has really regressed. It seems to be the exact opposite of what you would expect. One of the bigger mysteries in the NFL right now.

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They don't seem to be running as many timing routes as they used to - or they're running them and someone is way off in fulfilling their responsibilities. It also seems like they're not throwing as many "jump balls" as they used to, which probably has something to do with the injuries Jackson, Gates and Floyd have been nursing nearly all season. Apart from Jackson, there doesn't seem to be much of a vertical threat right now, which has always been a big part of the game plan. Maybe defenses have figured out Norv's approach and are taking the receivers away moreso than before, leaving the underneath stuff for the RBs, particularly considering Sproles is gone and so the RB targets aren't as big a threat as they were in terms of what D's worry about. Rivers has always taken what the D has given, so it may be as simple as that in explaining the increase in RB targets. I think things would look better if Jackson, Floyd and Gates could get healthier.

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It's impossible to dig thru all of your quibbling. Is Rivers playing injured or isn't he?

The Chargers say he isn't injured. But they've hidden injuries before.

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I don't think he's hurt. He's had 2 poor games (KC and NYJ) early, but he'll be fine. The Jets can make anyone look bad. And the OL played HORRIBLE in Denver. Still 10 games left.

Edited by tommyGunZ

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Maybe its just me, I'm no scout, but there are times where his throwing technique looks poor and he struggles to get the ball out for a 20 yd pass.... it doesn't seem like it gets talked about much but maybe there's something to it. Weird thing is, a few plays later he can throw a bomb 50 yards downfield. Vincent Jackson also needs more help around him, Floyd is NOT the answer and Losing Sproles was a big blow.

Losing Sproles was not a big blow. I posted on this earlier in the thread.
Maybe a better way to say it was that Sproles was vastly underused in San Diego. He had 6.9 touches per game last year, averaging 7.18 yards per touch. He has 12 touches per game this year, averaging 7.36 yards per touch.

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Maybe its just me, I'm no scout, but there are times where his throwing technique looks poor and he struggles to get the ball out for a 20 yd pass.... it doesn't seem like it gets talked about much but maybe there's something to it. Weird thing is, a few plays later he can throw a bomb 50 yards downfield. Vincent Jackson also needs more help around him, Floyd is NOT the answer and Losing Sproles was a big blow.

Losing Sproles was not a big blow. I posted on this earlier in the thread.
Maybe a better way to say it was that Sproles was vastly underused in San Diego. He had 6.9 touches per game last year, averaging 7.18 yards per touch. He has 12 touches per game this year, averaging 7.36 yards per touch.
I don't think that is true at all. Sproles averaged 5.3 ypc and 8.8 ypr last year, compared to 7.4 ypc and 7.3 ypr this year. Furthermore, San Diego was #1 in both total yards on offense and yards per play last season. All evidence suggests that he was used effectively, as were the other players in the offense.There are significant differences for Sproles between last year and this year, notably:1. New Orleans has a better offensive line than San Diego.2. San Diego averaged 34 pass attempts per game last year, while New Orleans is averaging 42.7 per game this year... that makes room for more targets for Sproles.

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The reason rivers hasn't played well this season is simple - BAD DECISIONS. Almost all his picks should never have been thrown. Especially the picks in the red zone were just plain wtf moments.

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Maybe its just me, I'm no scout, but there are times where his throwing technique looks poor and he struggles to get the ball out for a 20 yd pass.... it doesn't seem like it gets talked about much but maybe there's something to it. Weird thing is, a few plays later he can throw a bomb 50 yards downfield. Vincent Jackson also needs more help around him, Floyd is NOT the answer and Losing Sproles was a big blow.

Losing Sproles was not a big blow. I posted on this earlier in the thread.
Maybe a better way to say it was that Sproles was vastly underused in San Diego. He had 6.9 touches per game last year, averaging 7.18 yards per touch. He has 12 touches per game this year, averaging 7.36 yards per touch.
I don't think that is true at all. Sproles averaged 5.3 ypc and 8.8 ypr last year, compared to 7.4 ypc and 7.3 ypr this year. Furthermore, San Diego was #1 in both total yards on offense and yards per play last season. All evidence suggests that he was used effectively, as were the other players in the offense.

There are significant differences for Sproles between last year and this year, notably:

1. New Orleans has a better offensive line than San Diego.

2. San Diego averaged 34 pass attempts per game last year, while New Orleans is averaging 42.7 per game this year... that makes room for more targets for Sproles.

:no:

I don't think it is as simple as saying, "San Diego was #1 in both total yards on offense and yards per play last season," and then therefore concluding that it proves that all of the players were used effectively. They weren't first in point scored, so there was obviously room for improvement. Probably the biggest loss of the season was the home loss to the Raiders in early December, and Sproles touched the ball twice (one rush and one catch). Not saying more touches absolutely would have made the difference, but Sproles is a difference maker when used properly in the right situations, and him only getting three carries per game last year really stands out. Yes, he was effective when he was used, but he could have been even more effective had he touched the ball more, and the offense might have been even better.

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Maybe its just me, I'm no scout, but there are times where his throwing technique looks poor and he struggles to get the ball out for a 20 yd pass.... it doesn't seem like it gets talked about much but maybe there's something to it. Weird thing is, a few plays later he can throw a bomb 50 yards downfield. Vincent Jackson also needs more help around him, Floyd is NOT the answer and Losing Sproles was a big blow.

Losing Sproles was not a big blow. I posted on this earlier in the thread.
Maybe a better way to say it was that Sproles was vastly underused in San Diego. He had 6.9 touches per game last year, averaging 7.18 yards per touch. He has 12 touches per game this year, averaging 7.36 yards per touch.
I don't think that is true at all. Sproles averaged 5.3 ypc and 8.8 ypr last year, compared to 7.4 ypc and 7.3 ypr this year. Furthermore, San Diego was #1 in both total yards on offense and yards per play last season. All evidence suggests that he was used effectively, as were the other players in the offense.

There are significant differences for Sproles between last year and this year, notably:

1. New Orleans has a better offensive line than San Diego.

2. San Diego averaged 34 pass attempts per game last year, while New Orleans is averaging 42.7 per game this year... that makes room for more targets for Sproles.

:no:

I don't think it is as simple as saying, "San Diego was #1 in both total yards on offense and yards per play last season," and then therefore concluding that it proves that all of the players were used effectively. They weren't first in point scored, so there was obviously room for improvement. Probably the biggest loss of the season was the home loss to the Raiders in early December, and Sproles touched the ball twice (one rush and one catch). Not saying more touches absolutely would have made the difference, but Sproles is a difference maker when used properly in the right situations, and him only getting three carries per game last year really stands out. Yes, he was effective when he was used, but he could have been even more effective had he touched the ball more, and the offense might have been even better.

True. If might have been worse.

I thought Sproles was utilized properly in SD. Just b/c he's excelling in a different offense in NO doesn't mean he was underutilized in SD.

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Screw this piece of garbage, his garbage coach and his garbage team.

Player evaluations based on the first quarter of a game always go well.

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Screw this piece of garbage, his garbage coach and his garbage team.

Player evaluations based on the first quarter of a game always go well.
Yeah. Except this poster wasnt evaluating rivers based on the first qtr tonight. He is evaluating rivers over the last 6+ games in which he has way underperformed his draft status and killed his fantasy teams. When people are speculating that he must be injured, that's a pretty good sign that he has been sucking...in addition to watching him suck.

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Screw this piece of garbage, his garbage coach and his garbage team.

Player evaluations based on the first quarter of a game always go well.
Yeah. Except this poster wasnt evaluating rivers based on the first qtr tonight. He is evaluating rivers over the last 6+ games in which he has way underperformed his draft status and killed his fantasy teams. When people are speculating that he must be injured, that's a pretty good sign that he has been sucking...in addition to watching him suck.
I'm sorry your fantasy football QB isn't getting you the points you want, but Philip Rivers is still one of the best QBs in the NFL. And he looks pretty good tonight, aside from the one pick.

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Screw this piece of garbage, his garbage coach and his garbage team.

Player evaluations based on the first quarter of a game always go well.
Yeah. Except this poster wasnt evaluating rivers based on the first qtr tonight. He is evaluating rivers over the last 6+ games in which he has way underperformed his draft status and killed his fantasy teams. When people are speculating that he must be injured, that's a pretty good sign that he has been sucking...in addition to watching him suck.
I'm sorry your fantasy football QB isn't getting you the points you want, but Philip Rivers is still one of the best QBs in the NFL. And he looks pretty good tonight, aside from the one pick.
erp...2 INT's tonight for Rivers

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