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Moe Green

Philip Rivers Is Terrible

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I just did not see Jackson & Gates get open much. I know they are the focus of the defense, but weren't they last year.

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I strongly advocated that VJax would end as the #1 WR this season... WRONG.

I don't know if it's Rivers, VJax, a combo of the two, both being injured or what....

In Sept I NEVER envisioned myself trading away Vjax, but did last week for Manningham (ballsy in some ways, but already paying off)

I dont know whats wrong with Rivers, but glad he was taken at the pick before me at 2.11... ended up getting Brady.

Feel for the Chargers' fans... A good friend of mine is married to a lineman, and even she doesn;t know what's going on (aside from the fact that she's a woman lol).

I always saw RIvers as a top 5 QB... this season, he looks lost. Completely vacant

Edited by rizzler

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I just did not see Jackson & Gates get open much. I know they are the focus of the defense, but weren't they last year.

Unless you were watching coaches tape, you didn't see get open, or be covered, or anything unless he was thrown to. The camera doesn't go 10 yards downfield, and on pass plays, you often cannot see where even the TE went.

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Eli is better. The Super Bowl win is just a bonus. The Ginats made a great choice trading for the "other" Manning.

An even better choice would have been to sit tight at #4 and take Roethlisberger. Thank God they didn't.
Agreed. Pitt would have 3-4 Rings with Rivers at the helm, and San Diego would be a laughingstock.
Possibly. Then again there is no way Rivers could take the kind of beatings that Roethlisberger has endured behind the Steelers o-line.
Regardless of whether or not Rivers would have been better or worse than Roethlisberger in Pittsburgh, there is no reason to believe this statement is true. Rivers (6'5", 228) is almost as big as Roethlisberger (6'5", 241). In high school, he started at both QB and LB, and he was recruited by Alabama to play LB (he chose N.C. State to play QB). Rivers did not miss a start in college, setting a NCAA record at the time with 51 starts. And he hasn't missed a start in the NFL. He played the AFC championship game less than a week after ACL surgery a few years ago. He has proven he is as tough as any NFL QB.

One thing is for sure, he wouldn't have missed the games Roethlisberger missed due to suspension.

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Eli is better. The Super Bowl win is just a bonus. The Ginats made a great choice trading for the "other" Manning.

An even better choice would have been to sit tight at #4 and take Roethlisberger. Thank God they didn't.
Agreed. Pitt would have 3-4 Rings with Rivers at the helm, and San Diego would be a laughingstock.
Possibly. Then again there is no way Rivers could take the kind of beatings that Roethlisberger has endured behind the Steelers o-line.
Regardless of whether or not Rivers would have been better or worse than Roethlisberger in Pittsburgh, there is no reason to believe this statement is true. Rivers (6'5", 228) is almost as big as Roethlisberger (6'5", 241). In high school, he started at both QB and LB, and he was recruited by Alabama to play LB (he chose N.C. State to play QB). Rivers did not miss a start in college, setting a NCAA record at the time with 51 starts. And he hasn't missed a start in the NFL. He played the AFC championship game less than a week after ACL surgery a few years ago. He has proven he is as tough as any NFL QB.

One thing is for sure, he wouldn't have missed the games Roethlisberger missed due to suspension.

Stingy :thumbup:

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Eli is better. The Super Bowl win is just a bonus. The Ginats made a great choice trading for the "other" Manning.

An even better choice would have been to sit tight at #4 and take Roethlisberger. Thank God they didn't.
Agreed. Pitt would have 3-4 Rings with Rivers at the helm, and San Diego would be a laughingstock.
Possibly. Then again there is no way Rivers could take the kind of beatings that Roethlisberger has endured behind the Steelers o-line.
Regardless of whether or not Rivers would have been better or worse than Roethlisberger in Pittsburgh, there is no reason to believe this statement is true. Rivers (6'5", 228) is almost as big as Roethlisberger (6'5", 241). In high school, he started at both QB and LB, and he was recruited by Alabama to play LB (he chose N.C. State to play QB). Rivers did not miss a start in college, setting a NCAA record at the time with 51 starts. And he hasn't missed a start in the NFL. He played the AFC championship game less than a week after ACL surgery a few years ago. He has proven he is as tough as any NFL QB.

One thing is for sure, he wouldn't have missed the games Roethlisberger missed due to suspension.

Not to mention that Rivers wouldn't take nearly as many hits.

Big Ben brings a lot of those hits on himself by not being able to find the hot route against a blitz and by hanging onto the ball forever. The Pitt o-line hasn't been dreadful since like 4 years ago. Charlie Batch, in his time in Pittsburgh, is right around the league average in sacks per pass attempt (once in every 19 dropbacks) while Big Ben is shattering it (once in every 10 dropbacks) behind the same lines.

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Eli is better. The Super Bowl win is just a bonus. The Ginats made a great choice trading for the "other" Manning.

I would rather have Drew Brees than EITHER of them...

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I watched him last night, and I don't know what it is....but its like something is broken in the guy's head. He looks like a completely different QB from last year's version. I'd say that I guarantee he's injured, if I could see any signs of that in his play. I can't.

Last night was the first time I was really able to watch him this season. While he has always had an awkward throwing motion, at times there seemed to be more of a hitch or shot-putting than normal which looked stressful on his elbow and produced some poor throws and knuckle balls. My first thought was that something was ailing. Maybe a leg/knee issue? He seems to be using all arm and no body.
I think he has a hitch in his hitch...

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I think he needs to breathe through his eyelids.

If you take away past years' long handoffs to Sproles and tosses to a healthy Gates, you're left with this season: For the first time in memory, Philip Rivers is having to throw to wide receivers who are covered like most wide receivers in the league. Nobody appears to be drawing any extra special coverage. Not surprisingly, this isn't as easy as it was in years when defenses had two special players to defend.

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Eli is better. The Super Bowl win is just a bonus. The Ginats made a great choice trading for the "other" Manning.

An even better choice would have been to sit tight at #4 and take Roethlisberger. Thank God they didn't.
Agreed. Pitt would have 3-4 Rings with Rivers at the helm, and San Diego would be a laughingstock.
Possibly. Then again there is no way Rivers could take the kind of beatings that Roethlisberger has endured behind the Steelers o-line.

Nor would Rivers have made The Tackle.

He wouldn't have used his tackle for evil either though.

:ph34r:

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Eli is better. The Super Bowl win is just a bonus. The Ginats made a great choice trading for the "other" Manning.

An even better choice would have been to sit tight at #4 and take Roethlisberger. Thank God they didn't.
Agreed. Pitt would have 3-4 Rings with Rivers at the helm, and San Diego would be a laughingstock.
Possibly. Then again there is no way Rivers could take the kind of beatings that Roethlisberger has endured behind the Steelers o-line.
Regardless of whether or not Rivers would have been better or worse than Roethlisberger in Pittsburgh, there is no reason to believe this statement is true. Rivers (6'5", 228) is almost as big as Roethlisberger (6'5", 241). In high school, he started at both QB and LB, and he was recruited by Alabama to play LB (he chose N.C. State to play QB). Rivers did not miss a start in college, setting a NCAA record at the time with 51 starts. And he hasn't missed a start in the NFL. He played the AFC championship game less than a week after ACL surgery a few years ago. He has proven he is as tough as any NFL QB.

One thing is for sure, he wouldn't have missed the games Roethlisberger missed due to suspension.

Not to mention that Rivers wouldn't take nearly as many hits.

Big Ben brings a lot of those hits on himself by not being able to find the hot route against a blitz and by hanging onto the ball forever. The Pitt o-line hasn't been dreadful since like 4 years ago. Charlie Batch, in his time in Pittsburgh, is right around the league average in sacks per pass attempt (once in every 19 dropbacks) while Big Ben is shattering it (once in every 10 dropbacks) behind the same lines.

You must not watch a ton of Steelers football. It's been a patchwork quilt for the last two years straight. Clearly, a bunch of Ben's sacks are a result of him holding the ball, no doubt, but there are plenty others where he simply has had no time to throw at all. Earlier this season, it was a huge problem - go back and re-watch the night game against Indy for an example. Last few weeks, the pass protection has been much better and look at Roethlisberger's numbers in those games. No coincidence.

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Eli is better. The Super Bowl win is just a bonus. The Ginats made a great choice trading for the "other" Manning.

An even better choice would have been to sit tight at #4 and take Roethlisberger. Thank God they didn't.
Agreed. Pitt would have 3-4 Rings with Rivers at the helm, and San Diego would be a laughingstock.
Possibly. Then again there is no way Rivers could take the kind of beatings that Roethlisberger has endured behind the Steelers o-line.

Nor would Rivers have made The Tackle.

He wouldn't have used his tackle for evil either though.

:ph34r:

:lmao:

I'm also not sure Rivers is hot enough that Mendenhall would have tried to hump him either.

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I think he needs to breathe through his eyelids. If you take away past years' long handoffs to Sproles and tosses to a healthy Gates, you're left with this season: For the first time in memory, Philip Rivers is having to throw to wide receivers who are covered like most wide receivers in the league. Nobody appears to be drawing any extra special coverage. Not surprisingly, this isn't as easy as it was in years when defenses had two special players to defend.

You think the 8.8 yards per reception and 2 TDs they got out of Sproles last year caused defenses to totally adjust their schemes? And that they left those schemes in place for the six games that Gates missed last year?

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Rivers vs Roethlisberger post season stats.

Rivers (7 games) 58.5%, 8 TD, 9 INT, 79.2 RATE, 1 RUSH TD

Roethlisberger (13 games) 61.2%, 19 TD, 16 INT, 84.5 RATE, 3 RUSH TD

Clearly the Steelers would have won 1-2 more SBs with Rivers behind center.

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Does VJax just run bad routes or something? In the past he has been big play receiver, maybe the separation speed just isn't there for him right now because of the injuries, and he's not able to get open without it. I haven't watch many Charger games this year, thank god.

no he is just waiting on us to bench him so he can do one of those 154yd and 3TD games LOL

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http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/1813/philip-rivers

Philip Rivers has been spotted wincing on film while throwing this season, according to an NFL personnel man. Rivers' throwing motion has always been unconventional, but this personnel man says it's "particularly grotesque" this season. Whether Rivers is hurt or not, he's clearly missing throws he normally makes and appears to be lacking zip on his ball. He's on pace to throw just 16 touchdown passes this season after throwing at least 28 in each of the last three years. Along the way, he's crippled the fantasy value of Vincent Jackson. Nov 2 - 12:22 PM

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Is this the time to sell high on Rivers? I watched the game and despite the gaudy stats, he left a lot of throws on the field and didn't look great

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I'm pretty sure Rivers and Eli switched spots during the off-season. They're basically having reverse seasons of the previous year.

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He's gotta be hurt. The ball looks terrible at times, wobbling through the air. Guys don't just lose it like that at his age.

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Hos throws remind me of Peyton last season. Not a lot of zip. We see now that Peyton was hurt. Rivers is hurt too.

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Eli is better. The Super Bowl win is just a bonus. The Ginats made a great choice trading for the "other" Manning.

An even better choice would have been to sit tight at #4 and take Roethlisberger. Thank God they didn't.
Agreed. Pitt would have 3-4 Rings with Rivers at the helm, and San Diego would be a laughingstock.
Possibly. Then again there is no way Rivers could take the kind of beatings that Roethlisberger has endured behind the Steelers o-line.
Regardless of whether or not Rivers would have been better or worse than Roethlisberger in Pittsburgh, there is no reason to believe this statement is true. Rivers (6'5", 228) is almost as big as Roethlisberger (6'5", 241). In high school, he started at both QB and LB, and he was recruited by Alabama to play LB (he chose N.C. State to play QB). Rivers did not miss a start in college, setting a NCAA record at the time with 51 starts. And he hasn't missed a start in the NFL. He played the AFC championship game less than a week after ACL surgery a few years ago. He has proven he is as tough as any NFL QB.

One thing is for sure, he wouldn't have missed the games Roethlisberger missed due to suspension.

Not to mention that Rivers wouldn't take nearly as many hits.

Big Ben brings a lot of those hits on himself by not being able to find the hot route against a blitz and by hanging onto the ball forever. The Pitt o-line hasn't been dreadful since like 4 years ago. Charlie Batch, in his time in Pittsburgh, is right around the league average in sacks per pass attempt (once in every 19 dropbacks) while Big Ben is shattering it (once in every 10 dropbacks) behind the same lines.

Exactly. Rivers doesn't get hit nearly as much because he doesn't hold onto the ball nearly as much as Ben does. Rivers weakness is throwing to the RB in the flat, but the Steelers don't really do much of that so that wouldn't be a problem in Pittsburgh. The Steelers are more of a vertical passing team. Rivers would actually be a better fit in Pittsburgh than Roethlisberger.

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I am convinced he is playing hurt. I saw multiple passes today that lacked zip or were actually fluttering. While he has an unorthodox delivery, he has never had a problem with those things in the past.

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I am convinced he is playing hurt. I saw multiple passes today that lacked zip or were actually fluttering. While he has an unorthodox delivery, he has never had a problem with those things in the past.

Not the best example but Chuck Knoblauch never had a problem throwing to first until the day he couldnt throw to first. Theres something very strange going on in SD and I think alot of it is in the head.

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I think anyone watching the game realizes he just isn't the same guy I watched last year. Are other people looking at this game as the perfect time to sell or are you holding, thinking he can turn it around?

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I am convinced he is playing hurt. I saw multiple passes today that lacked zip or were actually fluttering. While he has an unorthodox delivery, he has never had a problem with those things in the past.

He has never really had a strong arm.. That and his delivery were the knocks on him coming into the league.

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I am convinced he is playing hurt. I saw multiple passes today that lacked zip or were actually fluttering. While he has an unorthodox delivery, he has never had a problem with those things in the past.

He has never really had a strong arm.. That and his delivery were the knocks on him coming into the league.
It is untrue that not having a strong arm has always been a knock on him. He has been one of the best deep passers in the league for years, and he has never had a problem making any NFL throws.

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I am convinced he is playing hurt. I saw multiple passes today that lacked zip or were actually fluttering. While he has an unorthodox delivery, he has never had a problem with those things in the past.

He has never really had a strong arm.. That and his delivery were the knocks on him coming into the league.
It is untrue that not having a strong arm has always been a knock on him. He has been one of the best deep passers in the league for years, and he has never had a problem making any NFL throws.
:goodposting:

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Rivers is and will be fine. How many QBs can throw 6 TD passes in a game?

Two to the opposing team even!

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I am convinced he is playing hurt. I saw multiple passes today that lacked zip or were actually fluttering. While he has an unorthodox delivery, he has never had a problem with those things in the past.

He has never really had a strong arm.. That and his delivery were the knocks on him coming into the league.
:lmao: Whole lotta wrong info here.

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He's obviously going through a rough stretch, but he's one of the best leaders in all of football. Probably the most misunderstood athlete in professional sports, IMO. River's presser

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He's obviously going through a rough stretch, but he's one of the best leaders in all of football. Probably the most misunderstood athlete in professional sports, IMO. River's presser

what has he ever led any team to?

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He's obviously going through a rough stretch, but he's one of the best leaders in all of football. Probably the most misunderstood athlete in professional sports, IMO. River's presser

Actually, I think he's starting to break out over the last couple of weeks - at least numerically. If he can get the ints under control he could be right back near the top of the QBs for the last 8 games. I don't think he's hurt, Jackson looks like he's at about 100%, they've found a way to utilize what Gates has left to offer, Vincent Brown looks like he could be a helper, and therefore he's a trade for, though the price probably just got seriously bumped after yesterday.

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He's obviously going through a rough stretch, but he's one of the best leaders in all of football. Probably the most misunderstood athlete in professional sports, IMO. River's presser

what has he ever led any team to?
Yeah. I can say a lot of positive things in defense of Rivers, but "one of the best leaders in all of football" isn't one of them. He may even be perfectly adequate in a leadership role, but to be on the list of the best, you have to prove you can take your team on your back and win on the biggest stages. PR's resume so far shows exactly the opposite. QB for SB contenders who have underperformed when the games matter most.

Saying the right things in press conferences and being respected in the locker room aren't the same thing as leading a football team. Those are necessary, but not sufficient.

Edited by Zeff

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Does VJax just run bad routes or something? In the past he has been big play receiver, maybe the separation speed just isn't there for him right now because of the injuries, and he's not able to get open without it. I haven't watch many Charger games this year, thank god.

no he is just waiting on us to bench him so he can do one of those 154yd and 3TD games LOL
okay so it was ONLY ... 141/3 ... LOL

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He's obviously going through a rough stretch, but he's one of the best leaders in all of football. Probably the most misunderstood athlete in professional sports, IMO. River's presser

what has he ever led any team to?
Pretty sure he's been MVP of 3 or 4 bowl games, just not a Super Bowl.

He was also the NCAA's leading passing yardage leader when he left college. Guaranteed there were teammates at the ends of those passes. ;)

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I am convinced he is playing hurt. I saw multiple passes today that lacked zip or were actually fluttering. While he has an unorthodox delivery, he has never had a problem with those things in the past.

He has never really had a strong arm.. That and his delivery were the knocks on him coming into the league.
:lmao: Whole lotta wrong info here.
So at one point you think he was considered a 'strong armed' QB? Rivers has never been known to have a gun.. If I'm wrong about that, maybe you can show me.

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I am convinced he is playing hurt. I saw multiple passes today that lacked zip or were actually fluttering. While he has an unorthodox delivery, he has never had a problem with those things in the past.

He has never really had a strong arm.. That and his delivery were the knocks on him coming into the league.
:lmao: Whole lotta wrong info here.
So at one point you think he was considered a 'strong armed' QB? Rivers has never been known to have a gun.. If I'm wrong about that, maybe you can show me.
He's always had an above average arm, but his snap delivery is what sets him apart. That and his statuesque physique. He can see the field better than most, and really has the balls to throw into tight spots. He's the only QB I know that could take on Nnamdi Aso and win a fair share of times. Most other QB's don't even try. He's been as phyiscally talented a QB that there is in the league. I'd salivate to have this guy on the Raiders. He's really a lot better than this. Whether its an injury he's not disclosing or its mental, he is/was top 3 QB imo (well at least in the recent past).

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I am convinced he is playing hurt. I saw multiple passes today that lacked zip or were actually fluttering. While he has an unorthodox delivery, he has never had a problem with those things in the past.

He has never really had a strong arm.. That and his delivery were the knocks on him coming into the league.
:lmao: Whole lotta wrong info here.
So at one point you think he was considered a 'strong armed' QB? Rivers has never been known to have a gun.. If I'm wrong about that, maybe you can show me.
He's always had an above average arm, but his snap delivery is what sets him apart. That and his statuesque physique. He can see the field better than most, and really has the balls to throw into tight spots. He's the only QB I know that could take on Nnamdi Aso and win a fair share of times. Most other QB's don't even try. He's been as phyiscally talented a QB that there is in the league. I'd salivate to have this guy on the Raiders. He's really a lot better than this. Whether its an injury he's not disclosing or its mental, he is/was top 3 QB imo (well at least in the recent past).
He doesn't seem to have quite the zip he's had in the past but the mistakes seem mental to me rather an injury.

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I am convinced he is playing hurt. I saw multiple passes today that lacked zip or were actually fluttering. While he has an unorthodox delivery, he has never had a problem with those things in the past.

You also have to keep in mind it was raining most of the game yesterday. Probably didn't help his grip any.

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He's obviously going through a rough stretch, but he's one of the best leaders in all of football. Probably the most misunderstood athlete in professional sports, IMO. River's presser

what has he ever led any team to?
Pretty sure he's been MVP of 3 or 4 bowl games, just not a Super Bowl.
Yes, he led NC State to four bowl games, winning three of them, and was the game's MVP in each of the wins. He was also MVP of the Senior Bowl, so that's 4 MVP awards in five college bowl games. (In the one bowl game that NC State lost, Rivers was the game's Offensive MVP.)

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NFL Replay: Rivers' performances heading south

By Jarrett Bell, USA TODAY

Updated 2h 27m ago

After spotting the scoreboard-friendly Green Bay Packers, of all teams, 14 points in the first quarter with two bungled throws that went for pick-6's, the beleaguered Chargers quarterback was presented the chance to author a goat-to-hero script for himself in the waning seconds on Sunday at The Q.

Yet as Vincent Jackson flashed down the right sideline, the big-armed thrower heaved his worst pass of the shootout.

It was more egregious than the pick he threw when trying to squeeze the ball over the middle for Antonio Gates, which was deflected to ignite Charlie Peprah's 40-yard INT touchdown return. And considering the potential game-tying moment, it was worse than the soft, no-zip throw to the flat that Tramon Williams jumped on and returned for a 43-yard touchdown runback that was so clean it would have counted in flag football.

Rivers' last pass floated through the damp air like a carrier pigeon. Jackson - whom Rivers had connected with for two fourth-quarter touchdowns that slashed a 21-point deficit and put the Bolts in striking range - had no chance. But Peprah did.

Ballgame, clinched with an easy pick.

Six days after fumbling the snap in overtime at Kansas City as the Chargers were trying to position themselves for a game-winning field goal, Rivers passed for 385 yards and four touchdowns. But his three interceptions raised his NFL-high tally to 14 - which has eclipsed the total (13) that he had all of last season.

"He likes to throw the ball up and let his receivers make a play," Peprah, the Green Bay safety, said after the 45-38 result kept the Pack undefeated and marked San Diego's third straight loss. "We knew that if we would just do our job and be in position, we'd have a chance to make a play."

It has been that type of season for Rivers, who went into this campaign as an MVP candidate but instead is desperately trying to get his groove back. That last pass against one of the NFL's statistically-worst pass defenses couldn't be blamed on the injury-riddled O-line, Antonio Gates' foot, the Packers pass rush or even San Diego's suspect drafts.

Rivers threw a horrible pass.

"The one at the end," he said, "I wish I would've thrown it up high and deep and given Vincent a chance. But I didn't."

He insists that he's healthy. Or healthy enough. So despite the bruised sternum he suffered in Week 2, we can take him at his word. He's thrown every pass for the Chargers this season, 305 to be exact.

Still, it's worth noting that this is the same guy who once had arthroscopic surgery on Monday after tearing a knee ligament, then, gimpy and all, played an AFC title game the following Sunday. A coach's son, he's a tough guy. Gritty.

"I appreciate everybody trying to come up with a theory and a reason, but I'm not hurt," Rivers said. "I've thrown a handful of picks that I normally don't throw and I'll probably throw some more throughout my career and there won't always be a reason why. I prepare. I give everything I've got."

An elite passer, as Rivers has been, generally doesn't drop off like this unless something is wrong. His track record for efficiency is what makes his slump so alarming. His middle-of-the-pack 81.4 passer rating is more than 20 points lower than his 101.8 mark last season. Until Sunday, Rivers hadn't thrown three picks since his freshman year at North Carolina State, which means never in the NFL.

The theories are piling up, and they indeed come with merit. Rivers has to miss Darren Sproles, the lethal all-purpose back with great hands, better feet and now with the Saints. Gates, who missed three of the first five games, is fighting through the effects plantar fasciitis, which obviously has taken away his edge. Other assorted injuries, including a series of woes for running back Ryan Mathews, have taken a toll.

Still, the Chargers had a bunch of injuries last year, too, when Rivers passed for an NFL-high 4,710 yards and 30 TDs. And remember, the Packers (whose sharp-shooting marquee man, Aaron Rodgers, by the way, has thrown three interceptions all season) won a Super Bowl last season despite a rash of injuries. It's the NFL. Injuries happen.

"Other than statistically, there's nothing different," maintains Rivers, a 29-year-old father of six, comparing to last season. "I'm a year older and I have one more child. That's about it. There's nothing different. There are no injuries. Those guys up front, I wouldn't trade for anybody that's protecting for me ever."

It is not Rivers' style to publicly throw teammates under the bus, so you'll never hear him lament a missed block, bad route or other blown assignment. The outlook is always half-full. Even with the current state of affairs, with the Chargers (4-4) heading into Thursday night's game against the Raiders locked in a three-way tie for first place after starting the season 4-1, he maintains, "I'm not frustrated one bit.

"It's OK to be disappointed," he added, "but you've got to move on to the next day."

NFL Network analyst Mike Mayock has watched each Rivers pass this season, and for additional study put together a tape that contained all of the interceptions. Mayock thinks there's something to the rhythm lost due to the lack of practice reps with skilled-position players. Yet he's also seen some atypical fundamental breakdowns with Rivers.

"I think he's trying to do too much," Mayock, who will work Thursday's game, said while visiting the Chargers' complex on Monday. "They're asking him to do as much or more than any quarterback in the league. I'm seeing some mechanical breakdowns because he's trying to make some plays from different positions and trying to clear the ball too quickly."

Mayock noted one throw from Kansas City that sailed five feet above the target's head. On that throw, he didn't transfer his weight, which Mayock says left his feet and upper body grossly disconnected.

"But what I still see," he added, "is a guy still making a ton of plays."

Chargers coach Norv Turner suggested last week that perhaps Rivers is pressing too much, which sounds a lot like a player trying to make up for deficiencies around him but also might explain the throw to Gates that was intercepted.

After the game, Turner said of INT No. 12, "He shouldn't have tried to get it in there."

Without Rivers, though, it's apparent the Chargers are going nowhere.

"He's made an awful lot of plays," said Turner. "We're doing everything we can to be balanced, so that we can eliminate some of the negative plays and give him and ourselves a chance to make some plays and score."

Rivers threw 46 passes on Sunday, but after falling behind 21-7 early that's one of those things dictated by the flow of the game. On the season, he's averaged about 38 passes per game, which constitutes 57.5% of the snaps -- a ratio that is hardly unique in today's pass-happy NFL.

"We want to have some balance," says Turner.

But more importantly, they need the W's.

"You have to address the things you have to fix," Turner said after the short-week Monday practice. "But really, we just need to finish a game."

And that undoubtedly starts with the quarterback.

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Not really his fault tonight. O - line SUCKED. Should have kept 2 TE set with McMichael helping the pathetic "lineman" known as Dumbrowski.

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