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Moe Green

Philip Rivers Is Terrible

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The Chargers had a better record in Philip Rivers' first year than any year under Drew Brees. I don't know any Charger fans who would rather have Drew Brees. None.

There's one here somewhere. Maybe Gr00vus, but I'm not sure.
and frankly even then I doubt he would think that the Chargers should have signed him to a mega deal while Rivers was on the roster.

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Aj has made some bad decisions, but overall I think he is one ofthe best GMs in the game.

Bad decisions? You think after letting Brees go and firing Schotty after a 14-2 season he is still one of the best GMs in the game?
1. The fact is that Brees was an unrestricted free agent. (When people say that a team "let a player go" they generally mean that they cut him. Brees wasn't cut.) Your opinion may be that AJ should have offered Brees enough money to keep him in town. The Saints, I think, offered $12 million guaranteed in the first season even though he was a medical risk. It's worked out great for them, but my opinion is that, given the Chargers' situation (with Rivers waiting in the wings), the money could have been better spent elsewhere. Like locking up other key veterans with contract extensions, which they did.2. The fact is that AJ didn't fire Schotty. Dean Spanos did. Your opinion might be that AJ was ultimately responsible for the firing. My opinion (based on info from Kevin Acee) is that AJ's lack of respect for Marty may have been a big reason why Marty didn't want to stay; but ultimately, it was Marty who didn't want to stay, and he took steps to instigate his own firing.

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The Chargers had a better record in Philip Rivers' first year than any year under Drew Brees. I don't know any Charger fans who would rather have Drew Brees. None.

There's one here somewhere. Maybe Gr00vus, but I'm not sure.
and frankly even then I doubt he would think that the Chargers should have signed him to a mega deal while Rivers was on the roster.
It's the bicycle seat guy. To his credit he stuck with the "we should have stuck with Brees" stance early in the year even when Brees was playing poorly. Unlike the typical sharkpool poster that doesn't bring "Chargers shoulda kept Brees!" until week #9. It's funny how the things they should have done change from week to week. I'm sure AJ wishes he could go back and make changes depending on how the wind is blowing that week.

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Family Matters, your arguments are so uninformed, it kills any valid points you might actually have to make. I have personally seen you corrected in numerous threads, but you refuse to accept the facts (e.g., the Gates holdout, the coaching change, the QB change). There is really no reason for you to continue posting in Chargers threads - it is clear you aren't listening and do not have an open mind as to the facts of the situation, and you aren't convincing anyone else.

Valid points? You want to argue 4-4? So if a few Charger homers and AJ apologists such as yourself come in here bashing on me stating I'm wrong because they believe differently (or at least wish things were different) then that makes it fact? Oh ok. What was I thinking. ;)
I generally don't actively dispute your opinions. I sometimes dispute your factual assertions, and when I do, I generally provide links.I don't think Just Win Baby was calling you uninformed because you hold different opinions than many Chargers homers do. I think his contention is that you frequently make misstatements of fact.

At the end of the day, no matter what you or I believe, the Chargers are not as good as they were the past 2 years.

They're not as good as they were last year, but who is? Maybe two NFL teams?The Chargers may be as good as they were two years ago. Or not. It'll be easier to tell at the end of the season.
I certainly think they have a much better chance at making the plyayoffs this year since they missed the playoffs two years ago.... but again I hate to interject any fact into one of familyguys tirades. I'm sure he'll go on to inform us that they missed the playoffs by one game that year..... the game AJ suspended Gates. He's a font of accurate information after all.

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The Chargers had a better record in Philip Rivers' first year than any year under Drew Brees. I don't know any Charger fans who would rather have Drew Brees. None.

There's one here somewhere. Maybe Gr00vus, but I'm not sure.
and frankly even then I doubt he would think that the Chargers should have signed him to a mega deal while Rivers was on the roster.
It's the bicycle seat guy. To his credit he stuck with the "we should have stuck with Brees" stance early in the year even when Brees was playing poorly. Unlike the typical sharkpool poster that doesn't bring "Chargers shoulda kept Brees!" until week #9. It's funny how the things they should have done change from week to week. I'm sure AJ wishes he could go back and make changes depending on how the wind is blowing that week.
I'm calling dibs on "We should have kept Micheal Turner" schtik right now

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I haven't read all the posts but I would lay it all on the coach. LT has dropped off more than Rivers this year.

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The Chargers had a better record in Philip Rivers' first year than any year under Drew Brees. I don't know any Charger fans who would rather have Drew Brees. None.

There's one here somewhere. Maybe Gr00vus, but I'm not sure.
and frankly even then I doubt he would think that the Chargers should have signed him to a mega deal while Rivers was on the roster.
It's the bicycle seat guy. To his credit he stuck with the "we should have stuck with Brees" stance early in the year even when Brees was playing poorly. Unlike the typical sharkpool poster that doesn't bring "Chargers shoulda kept Brees!" until week #9. It's funny how the things they should have done change from week to week. I'm sure AJ wishes he could go back and make changes depending on how the wind is blowing that week.
I'm calling dibs on "We should have kept Micheal Turner" schtik right now
Not a chance. I've been saying they should pay $5mil for him next season and nobody agrees with me.

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The Chargers had a better record in Philip Rivers' first year than any year under Drew Brees. I don't know any Charger fans who would rather have Drew Brees. None.

There's one here somewhere. Maybe Gr00vus, but I'm not sure.
and frankly even then I doubt he would think that the Chargers should have signed him to a mega deal while Rivers was on the roster.
I was in the camp that you could only keep one or the other, not both at the price that would have had to have been paid. At the point that Brees was injured they couldn't pay him what he wanted so he basically forced their hand and he left.It turns out they're somewhat similar QBs - they're great when they've got protection, they're below average to bad when things aren't going their way.I don't think either guy is going to win a championship unless they go basically unpressured throughout a playoff run, which is unlikely. Both guys have serious problems when plays break down or the heat shows up - unlike a Brady or a Manning or a Favre, etc. who make enough plays in those situations to win games for their teams.

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I'm calling dibs on "We should have kept Micheal Turner" schtik right now

Oh no you dont.Not with LT being 28 next year with 2800 career touches in 7 years (400 a year) and Turner being 25. :thumbup:

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Aj has made some bad decisions, but overall I think he is one ofthe best GMs in the game.

Bad decisions? You think after letting Brees go and firing Schotty after a 14-2 season he is still one of the best GMs in the game?
1. The fact is that Brees was an unrestricted free agent. (When people say that a team "let a player go" they generally mean that they cut him. Brees wasn't cut.) Your opinion may be that AJ should have offered Brees enough money to keep him in town. The Saints, I think, offered $12 million guaranteed in the first season even though he was a medical risk. It's worked out great for them, but my opinion is that, given the Chargers' situation (with Rivers waiting in the wings), the money could have been better spent elsewhere. Like locking up other key veterans with contract extensions, which they did.2. The fact is that AJ didn't fire Schotty. Dean Spanos did. Your opinion might be that AJ was ultimately responsible for the firing. My opinion (based on info from Kevin Acee) is that AJ's lack of respect for Marty may have been a big reason why Marty didn't want to stay; but ultimately, it was Marty who didn't want to stay, and he took steps to instigate his own firing.
i may put this on my clipboard. i can't believe how many people don't understand how those decisions were made.

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Aj has made some bad decisions, but overall I think he is one ofthe best GMs in the game.

Bad decisions? You think after letting Brees go and firing Schotty after a 14-2 season he is still one of the best GMs in the game?
1. The fact is that Brees was an unrestricted free agent. (When people say that a team "let a player go" they generally mean that they cut him. Brees wasn't cut.) Your opinion may be that AJ should have offered Brees enough money to keep him in town. The Saints, I think, offered $12 million guaranteed in the first season even though he was a medical risk. It's worked out great for them, but my opinion is that, given the Chargers' situation (with Rivers waiting in the wings), the money could have been better spent elsewhere. Like locking up other key veterans with contract extensions, which they did.2. The fact is that AJ didn't fire Schotty. Dean Spanos did. Your opinion might be that AJ was ultimately responsible for the firing. My opinion (based on info from Kevin Acee) is that AJ's lack of respect for Marty may have been a big reason why Marty didn't want to stay; but ultimately, it was Marty who didn't want to stay, and he took steps to instigate his own firing.
i may put this on my clipboard. i can't believe how many people don't understand how those decisions were made.
The people that don't get it by now don't want to get it. Just like the people that are convinced the Chargers missed the playoffs in '05 because they lost the first game of the season to the Cowboys and that AJ suspended Gates for the game. Those people don't really care what the truth is.

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Aj has made some bad decisions, but overall I think he is one ofthe best GMs in the game.

Bad decisions? You think after letting Brees go and firing Schotty after a 14-2 season he is still one of the best GMs in the game?
1. The fact is that Brees was an unrestricted free agent. (When people say that a team "let a player go" they generally mean that they cut him. Brees wasn't cut.) Your opinion may be that AJ should have offered Brees enough money to keep him in town. The Saints, I think, offered $12 million guaranteed in the first season even though he was a medical risk. It's worked out great for them, but my opinion is that, given the Chargers' situation (with Rivers waiting in the wings), the money could have been better spent elsewhere. Like locking up other key veterans with contract extensions, which they did.2. The fact is that AJ didn't fire Schotty. Dean Spanos did. Your opinion might be that AJ was ultimately responsible for the firing. My opinion (based on info from Kevin Acee) is that AJ's lack of respect for Marty may have been a big reason why Marty didn't want to stay; but ultimately, it was Marty who didn't want to stay, and he took steps to instigate his own firing.
i may put this on my clipboard. i can't believe how many people don't understand how those decisions were made.
Yes, this is a very good explanation from Maurile, as is typical from him. In addition to these two, the Gates situation has also required frequent explanation as well.

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Aj has made some bad decisions, but overall I think he is one ofthe best GMs in the game.

Bad decisions? You think after letting Brees go and firing Schotty after a 14-2 season he is still one of the best GMs in the game?
1. The fact is that Brees was an unrestricted free agent. (When people say that a team "let a player go" they generally mean that they cut him. Brees wasn't cut.) Your opinion may be that AJ should have offered Brees enough money to keep him in town. The Saints, I think, offered $12 million guaranteed in the first season even though he was a medical risk. It's worked out great for them, but my opinion is that, given the Chargers' situation (with Rivers waiting in the wings), the money could have been better spent elsewhere. Like locking up other key veterans with contract extensions, which they did.2. The fact is that AJ didn't fire Schotty. Dean Spanos did. Your opinion might be that AJ was ultimately responsible for the firing. My opinion (based on info from Kevin Acee) is that AJ's lack of respect for Marty may have been a big reason why Marty didn't want to stay; but ultimately, it was Marty who didn't want to stay, and he took steps to instigate his own firing.
i may put this on my clipboard. i can't believe how many people don't understand how those decisions were made.
Understand? It's fairly clear who doesn't understand how these decisions were made. I have not seen any posts that argue what Maurile said happened. In fact, we can completely agree on the transaction processes that occured. Now let's think this through a minute. Everyone but a few here know that AJ made it happen. In fact it's amusing to read Maurile's post as he explains it. He makes it seem like AJ had nothing to do with the final decision and then at the same time he confirms that AJ didn't want to keep Brees for example. Simply amazing how you guys see this stuff. Even the National media has it figured out and they aren' usually that sharp.So I fully expect you guys to respond with comments that tend to be attacking of me because you can't really defend AJ any longer. Guess it helps you deal with the reality better? Hey if you really want to feel better try being a Bengal fan. It's not easy.

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Aj has made some bad decisions, but overall I think he is one ofthe best GMs in the game.

Bad decisions? You think after letting Brees go and firing Schotty after a 14-2 season he is still one of the best GMs in the game?
1. The fact is that Brees was an unrestricted free agent. (When people say that a team "let a player go" they generally mean that they cut him. Brees wasn't cut.) Your opinion may be that AJ should have offered Brees enough money to keep him in town. The Saints, I think, offered $12 million guaranteed in the first season even though he was a medical risk. It's worked out great for them, but my opinion is that, given the Chargers' situation (with Rivers waiting in the wings), the money could have been better spent elsewhere. Like locking up other key veterans with contract extensions, which they did.2. The fact is that AJ didn't fire Schotty. Dean Spanos did. Your opinion might be that AJ was ultimately responsible for the firing. My opinion (based on info from Kevin Acee) is that AJ's lack of respect for Marty may have been a big reason why Marty didn't want to stay; but ultimately, it was Marty who didn't want to stay, and he took steps to instigate his own firing.
i may put this on my clipboard. i can't believe how many people don't understand how those decisions were made.
Yes, this is a very good explanation from Maurile, as is typical from him. In addition to these two, the Gates situation has also required frequent explanation as well.
Actually it's a good accounting of the processes but not the decision making aspect which is what we've been debating. So let me clear it up for you and anyone else that's confused:1. Brees. AJ no longer wanted him. Marty did. AJ wanted Rivers to start, not Brees. AJ didn't want to make a market offer and he used the injury as his excuse. Not sure why anyone wants to argue this because it's what happened and it was well documented in news accounts. And don't bring the cap argument up because they have been well under the cap (last I checked) so it's not like they were in a tight spot. Besides, being the savy guy AJ is he had to know that more cap space was coming anyway.2. Marty. Spanos fired Marty but only after AJ put him in a no win situation and forced their hands. AJ knew it would likely happen and it's exactly what he wanted. AJ's disdain for Marty was also well documented in the press ( and in the public) so please stop acting like you have no clue about what actually happened. What I don't get, why do you guys feel you have to defend AJ? He's simply made some bad decisions on top of some good ones. And while he's made many more good ones, the bad ones he's made have a had a negative impact on the team. Good and bad, they impact the team accordingly. Arguing with me about it isn't going to change the fact they happened.

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And don't bring the cap argument up because they have been well under the cap (last I checked) so it's not like they were in a tight spot.

Maybe they weren't in a tight spot with regard to the cap because they didn't pay Brees $22mil.

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2. Marty. Spanos fired Marty but only after AJ put him in a no win situation and forced their hands.

Who's hand was forced? And how?

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And don't bring the cap argument up because they have been well under the cap (last I checked) so it's not like they were in a tight spot.

Maybe they weren't in a tight spot with regard to the cap because they didn't pay Brees $22mil.
Shhhhh I want to make sure Family Matters is able to add Michael Turner to the list of AJ Smith's imcompetence next year.[Family Matters]1. Brees blah blah blah2. Gates blah blah blah 3. Marty blah blah blah4 I dont know why you homers keep saying AJ Smith is a good talent evaluator. He let Micheal Turner go and now he is one of the better starting runningbacks in the league. He used Tomlinson as an excuse to not offer Turner a fair market value offer. The contract he offered him was a joke. Turner would have stayed around if it wasnt for AJ Smith's ego./[Family Matters]

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Actually it's a good accounting of the processes but not the decision making aspect which is what we've been debating. So let me clear it up for you and anyone else that's confused:1. Brees. AJ no longer wanted him. Marty did. AJ wanted Rivers to start, not Brees. AJ didn't want to make a market offer and he used the injury as his excuse. Not sure why anyone wants to argue this because it's what happened and it was well documented in news accounts. And don't bring the cap argument up because they have been well under the cap (last I checked) so it's not like they were in a tight spot. Besides, being the savy guy AJ is he had to know that more cap space was coming anyway.2. Marty. Spanos fired Marty but only after AJ put him in a no win situation and forced their hands. AJ knew it would likely happen and it's exactly what he wanted. AJ's disdain for Marty was also well documented in the press ( and in the public) so please stop acting like you have no clue about what actually happened. What I don't get, why do you guys feel you have to defend AJ? He's simply made some bad decisions on top of some good ones. And while he's made many more good ones, the bad ones he's made have a had a negative impact on the team. Good and bad, they impact the team accordingly. Arguing with me about it isn't going to change the fact they happened.

Geez, I don't know why I do this. But...1. It is just wrong to say that AJ didn't want to make a market offer to Brees. And the reason it is wrong is because AJ DID make a fair market offer to Brees. Only one team, the Saints, made a better offer, and the only real difference between the Saints offer and the Chargers offer was the Saints offer had more guaranteed money.2. It is a fact that AJ was not a big fan of Marty. But the facts are that when Dean Spanos asked AJ if he should fire Marty, AJ said no. And the only reson Marty isn't the head coach of the Chargers right now is because he decided to take a specific action that he knew would lead to his firing. The fact is that if Marty wanted to be head coach of the Chargers right now, he would be.I am not apologizing for AJ here. But these are the facts of both of these matters. The reason people are banging on you in these threads is that you go beyond the facts, and assign motives and causes to people's actions. Then you state that your opinions on the motives for people's actions is fact, and it isn't. And in the Drew Brees case, you don't even get the basic facts right.

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And don't bring the cap argument up because they have been well under the cap (last I checked) so it's not like they were in a tight spot.

Maybe they weren't in a tight spot with regard to the cap because they didn't pay Brees $22mil.
Shhhhh I want to make sure Family Matters is able to add Michael Turner to the list of AJ Smith's imcompetence next year.[Family Matters]1. Brees blah blah blah2. Gates blah blah blah 3. Marty blah blah blah4 I dont know why you homers keep saying AJ Smith is a good talent evaluator. He let Micheal Turner go and now he is one of the better starting runningbacks in the league. He used Tomlinson as an excuse to not offer Turner a fair market value offer. The contract he offered him was a joke. Turner would have stayed around if it wasnt for AJ Smith's ego./[Family Matters]
So you think that a back up RB and starting Pro Bowl QB are the same situation? Yet another post that leaves many wondering where you are coming from. Oh and thanks for making another great point. In fact why keep the back up RB when you can get value for him? It would of made more sense to get value and help your team. But no instead he gets rid of the argueably the 2nd best player on the team. Very bright indeed. I hadn't even thought of that until you pointed it out.

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And don't bring the cap argument up because they have been well under the cap (last I checked) so it's not like they were in a tight spot.

Maybe they weren't in a tight spot with regard to the cap because they didn't pay Brees $22mil.
Shhhhh I want to make sure Family Matters is able to add Michael Turner to the list of AJ Smith's imcompetence next year.[Family Matters]1. Brees blah blah blah2. Gates blah blah blah 3. Marty blah blah blah4 I dont know why you homers keep saying AJ Smith is a good talent evaluator. He let Micheal Turner go and now he is one of the better starting runningbacks in the league. He used Tomlinson as an excuse to not offer Turner a fair market value offer. The contract he offered him was a joke. Turner would have stayed around if it wasnt for AJ Smith's ego./[Family Matters]
So you think that a back up RB and starting Pro Bowl QB are the same situation? Yet another post that leaves many wondering where you are coming from. Oh and thanks for making another great point. In fact why keep the back up RB when you can get value for him? It would of made more sense to get value and help your team. But no instead he gets rid of the argueably the 2nd best player on the team. Very bright indeed. I hadn't even thought of that until you pointed it out.
Which Pro Bowl Quarterback are you talking about Brees or Rivers? :thumbup:No competent GM will pay top dollar money to a free agent at any position on the field no matter how talented when hes has a cheaper younger option with pro bowl talent already signed.It's an incredibly simple concept. I don't understand why its so difficult for you to understand. Edited by Mr. PadresLakers

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Actually it's a good accounting of the processes but not the decision making aspect which is what we've been debating. So let me clear it up for you and anyone else that's confused:1. Brees. AJ no longer wanted him. Marty did. AJ wanted Rivers to start, not Brees. AJ didn't want to make a market offer and he used the injury as his excuse. Not sure why anyone wants to argue this because it's what happened and it was well documented in news accounts. And don't bring the cap argument up because they have been well under the cap (last I checked) so it's not like they were in a tight spot. Besides, being the savy guy AJ is he had to know that more cap space was coming anyway.2. Marty. Spanos fired Marty but only after AJ put him in a no win situation and forced their hands. AJ knew it would likely happen and it's exactly what he wanted. AJ's disdain for Marty was also well documented in the press ( and in the public) so please stop acting like you have no clue about what actually happened. What I don't get, why do you guys feel you have to defend AJ? He's simply made some bad decisions on top of some good ones. And while he's made many more good ones, the bad ones he's made have a had a negative impact on the team. Good and bad, they impact the team accordingly. Arguing with me about it isn't going to change the fact they happened.

Geez, I don't know why I do this. But...1. It is just wrong to say that AJ didn't want to make a market offer to Brees. And the reason it is wrong is because AJ DID make a fair market offer to Brees. Only one team, the Saints, made a better offer, and the only real difference between the Saints offer and the Chargers offer was the Saints offer had more guaranteed money.2. It is a fact that AJ was not a big fan of Marty. But the facts are that when Dean Spanos asked AJ if he should fire Marty, AJ said no. And the only reson Marty isn't the head coach of the Chargers right now is because he decided to take a specific action that he knew would lead to his firing. The fact is that if Marty wanted to be head coach of the Chargers right now, he would be.I am not apologizing for AJ here. But these are the facts of both of these matters. The reason people are banging on you in these threads is that you go beyond the facts, and assign motives and causes to people's actions. Then you state that your opinions on the motives for people's actions is fact, and it isn't. And in the Drew Brees case, you don't even get the basic facts right.
Regarding Brees. Fact: If they didn't offer more guarentee money than other(s) then they weren't making a market offer. Fact: When you offer less guarentee then you are below market. Fact: And they were very far apart, not even close. Fact: AJ wanted Rivers to be the QB and Marty wanted Brees, his Pro Bowl QB. Opinion: And it's becoming more clear that getting rid of Brees wasn't what was best for the team.Regarding Marty. Fact: Everyone (outside of the AJ apologists) understand that AJ and Spanos backed Marty into a corner that they knew would create problems. Fact: No other team treats their coach the way they treated AJ. Fact: AJ wanted Marty gone. Opinion: AJ made some bad decisions that have led the Chargers to where they are today. Opinion: 4-4 is under achieving.Hopefully that helps you see the difference.

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Fact: AJ wanted . . .

You're doing exactly what Walter Slovotsky just pointed out. When you do mind reading, it's speculation. Not fact.It goes in the opinion category even if you're right.

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Actually it's a good accounting of the processes but not the decision making aspect which is what we've been debating. So let me clear it up for you and anyone else that's confused:1. Brees. AJ no longer wanted him. Marty did. AJ wanted Rivers to start, not Brees. AJ didn't want to make a market offer and he used the injury as his excuse. Not sure why anyone wants to argue this because it's what happened and it was well documented in news accounts. And don't bring the cap argument up because they have been well under the cap (last I checked) so it's not like they were in a tight spot. Besides, being the savy guy AJ is he had to know that more cap space was coming anyway.2. Marty. Spanos fired Marty but only after AJ put him in a no win situation and forced their hands. AJ knew it would likely happen and it's exactly what he wanted. AJ's disdain for Marty was also well documented in the press ( and in the public) so please stop acting like you have no clue about what actually happened. What I don't get, why do you guys feel you have to defend AJ? He's simply made some bad decisions on top of some good ones. And while he's made many more good ones, the bad ones he's made have a had a negative impact on the team. Good and bad, they impact the team accordingly. Arguing with me about it isn't going to change the fact they happened.

Geez, I don't know why I do this. But...1. It is just wrong to say that AJ didn't want to make a market offer to Brees. And the reason it is wrong is because AJ DID make a fair market offer to Brees. Only one team, the Saints, made a better offer, and the only real difference between the Saints offer and the Chargers offer was the Saints offer had more guaranteed money.2. It is a fact that AJ was not a big fan of Marty. But the facts are that when Dean Spanos asked AJ if he should fire Marty, AJ said no. And the only reson Marty isn't the head coach of the Chargers right now is because he decided to take a specific action that he knew would lead to his firing. The fact is that if Marty wanted to be head coach of the Chargers right now, he would be.I am not apologizing for AJ here. But these are the facts of both of these matters. The reason people are banging on you in these threads is that you go beyond the facts, and assign motives and causes to people's actions. Then you state that your opinions on the motives for people's actions is fact, and it isn't. And in the Drew Brees case, you don't even get the basic facts right.
Regarding Brees. Fact: If they didn't offer more guarentee money than other(s) then they weren't making a market offer. Fact: When you offer less guarentee then you are below market. Fact: And they were very far apart, not even close. Fact: AJ wanted Rivers to be the QB and Marty wanted Brees, his Pro Bowl QB. Opinion: And it's becoming more clear that getting rid of Brees wasn't what was best for the team.Regarding Marty. Fact: Everyone (outside of the AJ apologists) understand that AJ and Spanos backed Marty into a corner that they knew would create problems. Fact: No other team treats their coach the way they treated AJ. Fact: AJ wanted Marty gone. Opinion: AJ made some bad decisions that have led the Chargers to where they are today. Opinion: 4-4 is under achieving.Hopefully that helps you see the difference.
And we're off..You may want to check your facts. Some of them are wrong. And your definition of fair market value is wrong, too.

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Actually it's a good accounting of the processes but not the decision making aspect which is what we've been debating. So let me clear it up for you and anyone else that's confused:1. Brees. AJ no longer wanted him. Marty did. AJ wanted Rivers to start, not Brees. AJ didn't want to make a market offer and he used the injury as his excuse. Not sure why anyone wants to argue this because it's what happened and it was well documented in news accounts. And don't bring the cap argument up because they have been well under the cap (last I checked) so it's not like they were in a tight spot. Besides, being the savy guy AJ is he had to know that more cap space was coming anyway.2. Marty. Spanos fired Marty but only after AJ put him in a no win situation and forced their hands. AJ knew it would likely happen and it's exactly what he wanted. AJ's disdain for Marty was also well documented in the press ( and in the public) so please stop acting like you have no clue about what actually happened. What I don't get, why do you guys feel you have to defend AJ? He's simply made some bad decisions on top of some good ones. And while he's made many more good ones, the bad ones he's made have a had a negative impact on the team. Good and bad, they impact the team accordingly. Arguing with me about it isn't going to change the fact they happened.

Geez, I don't know why I do this. But...1. It is just wrong to say that AJ didn't want to make a market offer to Brees. And the reason it is wrong is because AJ DID make a fair market offer to Brees. Only one team, the Saints, made a better offer, and the only real difference between the Saints offer and the Chargers offer was the Saints offer had more guaranteed money.2. It is a fact that AJ was not a big fan of Marty. But the facts are that when Dean Spanos asked AJ if he should fire Marty, AJ said no. And the only reson Marty isn't the head coach of the Chargers right now is because he decided to take a specific action that he knew would lead to his firing. The fact is that if Marty wanted to be head coach of the Chargers right now, he would be.I am not apologizing for AJ here. But these are the facts of both of these matters. The reason people are banging on you in these threads is that you go beyond the facts, and assign motives and causes to people's actions. Then you state that your opinions on the motives for people's actions is fact, and it isn't. And in the Drew Brees case, you don't even get the basic facts right.
Regarding Brees. Fact: If they didn't offer more guarentee money than other(s) then they weren't making a market offer. Fact: When you offer less guarentee then you are below market. Fact: And they were very far apart, not even close. Fact: AJ wanted Rivers to be the QB and Marty wanted Brees, his Pro Bowl QB. Opinion: And it's becoming more clear that getting rid of Brees wasn't what was best for the team.Regarding Marty. Fact: Everyone (outside of the AJ apologists) understand that AJ and Spanos backed Marty into a corner that they knew would create problems. Fact: No other team treats their coach the way they treated AJ. Fact: AJ wanted Marty gone. Opinion: AJ made some bad decisions that have led the Chargers to where they are today. Opinion: 4-4 is under achieving.Hopefully that helps you see the difference.
And we're off..You may want to check your facts. Some of them are wrong. And your definition of fair market value is wrong, too.
How about we just stop period. Arguing over silly issues of sematics is a total waste of time. Not sure how else anyone can explain market value to you. Some people just don't understand these things. Let's move on.

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For those that want to debate semantics and arguer with me over my opinions, I have a few questions for you:

1. Are you happy with the Chargers 4-4 record so far?

2. Are the Chargers performing to your expectations so far?

3. Who would you say is most responsible for their record this year?

4. What should they do to be better?

5. Do you feel they have the talent to win a Super Bowl or at least get there?

And so that we may all understand your position, please answer all 5 questions and explain what they could do to improve. And please don't say something as obvious as "they need to play better". Put a little thought into it.

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Actually it's a good accounting of the processes but not the decision making aspect which is what we've been debating. So let me clear it up for you and anyone else that's confused:1. Brees. AJ no longer wanted him. Marty did. AJ wanted Rivers to start, not Brees. AJ didn't want to make a market offer and he used the injury as his excuse. Not sure why anyone wants to argue this because it's what happened and it was well documented in news accounts. And don't bring the cap argument up because they have been well under the cap (last I checked) so it's not like they were in a tight spot. Besides, being the savy guy AJ is he had to know that more cap space was coming anyway.2. Marty. Spanos fired Marty but only after AJ put him in a no win situation and forced their hands. AJ knew it would likely happen and it's exactly what he wanted. AJ's disdain for Marty was also well documented in the press ( and in the public) so please stop acting like you have no clue about what actually happened. What I don't get, why do you guys feel you have to defend AJ? He's simply made some bad decisions on top of some good ones. And while he's made many more good ones, the bad ones he's made have a had a negative impact on the team. Good and bad, they impact the team accordingly. Arguing with me about it isn't going to change the fact they happened.

Geez, I don't know why I do this. But...1. It is just wrong to say that AJ didn't want to make a market offer to Brees. And the reason it is wrong is because AJ DID make a fair market offer to Brees. Only one team, the Saints, made a better offer, and the only real difference between the Saints offer and the Chargers offer was the Saints offer had more guaranteed money.2. It is a fact that AJ was not a big fan of Marty. But the facts are that when Dean Spanos asked AJ if he should fire Marty, AJ said no. And the only reson Marty isn't the head coach of the Chargers right now is because he decided to take a specific action that he knew would lead to his firing. The fact is that if Marty wanted to be head coach of the Chargers right now, he would be.I am not apologizing for AJ here. But these are the facts of both of these matters. The reason people are banging on you in these threads is that you go beyond the facts, and assign motives and causes to people's actions. Then you state that your opinions on the motives for people's actions is fact, and it isn't. And in the Drew Brees case, you don't even get the basic facts right.
Regarding Brees. Fact: If they didn't offer more guarentee money than other(s) then they weren't making a market offer. Fact: When you offer less guarentee then you are below market. Fact: And they were very far apart, not even close. Fact: AJ wanted Rivers to be the QB and Marty wanted Brees, his Pro Bowl QB. Opinion: And it's becoming more clear that getting rid of Brees wasn't what was best for the team.Regarding Marty. Fact: Everyone (outside of the AJ apologists) understand that AJ and Spanos backed Marty into a corner that they knew would create problems. Fact: No other team treats their coach the way they treated AJ. Fact: AJ wanted Marty gone. Opinion: AJ made some bad decisions that have led the Chargers to where they are today. Opinion: 4-4 is under achieving.Hopefully that helps you see the difference.
And we're off..You may want to check your facts. Some of them are wrong. And your definition of fair market value is wrong, too.
How about we just stop period. Arguing over silly issues of sematics is a total waste of time. Not sure how else anyone can explain market value to you. Some people just don't understand these things. Let's move on.
Fair market value is whatever somebody else will pay for a good, right?

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For those that want to debate semantics and arguer with me over my opinions, I have a few questions for you:1. Are you happy with the Chargers 4-4 record so far?No I am not, should be 6-2 2. Are the Chargers performing to your expectations so far?No they are clearly underperforming. Rivers and the D especially3. Who would you say is most responsible for their record this year?Norv Turner, who in fact was hired by AJ smith after firing Marty4. What should they do to be better?I am afraid this year is a lost cause, the only solution is to remove Cotrell - which wont happen. And Norv. I think they get one more year at least. marty was a great motivator, and I guarantee that this team would have not lost to KC or Minny they way they did if he was still at the helm.5. Do you feel they have the talent to win a Super Bowl or at least get there?Yes, the talent is there, Rivers while I am not the biggest fan in 18 - 7 as a starter. Their D philosphy this year has been horrible, they seem to be a bend dont break type D now rather than an attacking.And so that we may all understand your position, please answer all 5 questions and explain what they could do to improve. And please don't say something as obvious as "they need to play better". Put a little thought into it.

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For those that want to debate semantics and arguer with me over my opinions, I have a few questions for you:

1. Are you happy with the Chargers 4-4 record so far?

No, but I'm happy that they are still in first place. How they finish in the regular season doesn't matter to me. How they play in the playoffs will be more telling.

2. Are the Chargers performing to your expectations so far?

No.

3. Who would you say is most responsible for their record this year?

I'd go with the offensive line

4. What should they do to be better?

BLOCK

5. Do you feel they have the talent to win a Super Bowl or at least get there?

Sure, the Steelers a couple of years ago and Colts last year were even less regarded on their championship run

Edited by Mr. PadresLakers

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1. Are you happy with the Chargers 4-4 record so far?

No.

2. Are the Chargers performing to your expectations so far?

No.

3. Who would you say is most responsible for their record this year?

I think Tom Brady, Brett Favre, Dwayne Bowe, and Adrian Peterson have all played big roles. The Chargers' OL has been far too inconsistent, so I'd name all five of those guys -- although injuries have played a role there. I'm not so sure Ted Cottrell has done a good job of calling the defensive plays. The Chargers haven't made good adjustments at halftime, which I think Norv Turner and Ted Cottrell are primarily responsible for.

4. What should they do to be better?

Block, tackle, make adjustments at halftime.

5. Do you feel they have the talent to win a Super Bowl or at least get there?

Yes.

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Actually it's a good accounting of the processes but not the decision making aspect which is what we've been debating. So let me clear it up for you and anyone else that's confused:1. Brees. AJ no longer wanted him. Marty did. AJ wanted Rivers to start, not Brees. AJ didn't want to make a market offer and he used the injury as his excuse. Not sure why anyone wants to argue this because it's what happened and it was well documented in news accounts. And don't bring the cap argument up because they have been well under the cap (last I checked) so it's not like they were in a tight spot. Besides, being the savy guy AJ is he had to know that more cap space was coming anyway.2. Marty. Spanos fired Marty but only after AJ put him in a no win situation and forced their hands. AJ knew it would likely happen and it's exactly what he wanted. AJ's disdain for Marty was also well documented in the press ( and in the public) so please stop acting like you have no clue about what actually happened. What I don't get, why do you guys feel you have to defend AJ? He's simply made some bad decisions on top of some good ones. And while he's made many more good ones, the bad ones he's made have a had a negative impact on the team. Good and bad, they impact the team accordingly. Arguing with me about it isn't going to change the fact they happened.

Geez, I don't know why I do this. But...1. It is just wrong to say that AJ didn't want to make a market offer to Brees. And the reason it is wrong is because AJ DID make a fair market offer to Brees. Only one team, the Saints, made a better offer, and the only real difference between the Saints offer and the Chargers offer was the Saints offer had more guaranteed money.2. It is a fact that AJ was not a big fan of Marty. But the facts are that when Dean Spanos asked AJ if he should fire Marty, AJ said no. And the only reson Marty isn't the head coach of the Chargers right now is because he decided to take a specific action that he knew would lead to his firing. The fact is that if Marty wanted to be head coach of the Chargers right now, he would be.I am not apologizing for AJ here. But these are the facts of both of these matters. The reason people are banging on you in these threads is that you go beyond the facts, and assign motives and causes to people's actions. Then you state that your opinions on the motives for people's actions is fact, and it isn't. And in the Drew Brees case, you don't even get the basic facts right.
Regarding Brees. Fact: If they didn't offer more guarentee money than other(s) then they weren't making a market offer. Fact: When you offer less guarentee then you are below market. Fact: And they were very far apart, not even close. Fact: AJ wanted Rivers to be the QB and Marty wanted Brees, his Pro Bowl QB. Opinion: And it's becoming more clear that getting rid of Brees wasn't what was best for the team.Regarding Marty. Fact: Everyone (outside of the AJ apologists) understand that AJ and Spanos backed Marty into a corner that they knew would create problems. Fact: No other team treats their coach the way they treated AJ. Fact: AJ wanted Marty gone. Opinion: AJ made some bad decisions that have led the Chargers to where they are today. Opinion: 4-4 is under achieving.Hopefully that helps you see the difference.
And we're off..You may want to check your facts. Some of them are wrong. And your definition of fair market value is wrong, too.
How about we just stop period. Arguing over silly issues of sematics is a total waste of time. Not sure how else anyone can explain market value to you. Some people just don't understand these things. Let's move on.
Fair market value is whatever somebody else will pay for a good, right?
No.HINT: It is possible to pay above market value. Edited by Walter Slovotsky

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For those that want to debate semantics and arguer with me over my opinions

The problem is you are arguing your opinions are "FACT". It's hard to arguer with you if that's your stance.

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Aj has made some bad decisions, but overall I think he is one ofthe best GMs in the game.

Bad decisions? You think after letting Brees go and firing Schotty after a 14-2 season he is still one of the best GMs in the game?
1. The fact is that Brees was an unrestricted free agent. (When people say that a team "let a player go" they generally mean that they cut him. Brees wasn't cut.) Your opinion may be that AJ should have offered Brees enough money to keep him in town. The Saints, I think, offered $12 million guaranteed in the first season even though he was a medical risk. It's worked out great for them, but my opinion is that, given the Chargers' situation (with Rivers waiting in the wings), the money could have been better spent elsewhere. Like locking up other key veterans with contract extensions, which they did.

2. The fact is that AJ didn't fire Schotty. Dean Spanos did. Your opinion might be that AJ was ultimately responsible for the firing. My opinion (based on info from Kevin Acee) is that AJ's lack of respect for Marty may have been a big reason why Marty didn't want to stay; but ultimately, it was Marty who didn't want to stay, and he took steps to instigate his own firing.

I don't remember the details here. What did he do?

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Aj has made some bad decisions, but overall I think he is one ofthe best GMs in the game.

Bad decisions? You think after letting Brees go and firing Schotty after a 14-2 season he is still one of the best GMs in the game?
1. The fact is that Brees was an unrestricted free agent. (When people say that a team "let a player go" they generally mean that they cut him. Brees wasn't cut.) Your opinion may be that AJ should have offered Brees enough money to keep him in town. The Saints, I think, offered $12 million guaranteed in the first season even though he was a medical risk. It's worked out great for them, but my opinion is that, given the Chargers' situation (with Rivers waiting in the wings), the money could have been better spent elsewhere. Like locking up other key veterans with contract extensions, which they did.

2. The fact is that AJ didn't fire Schotty. Dean Spanos did. Your opinion might be that AJ was ultimately responsible for the firing. My opinion (based on info from Kevin Acee) is that AJ's lack of respect for Marty may have been a big reason why Marty didn't want to stay; but ultimately, it was Marty who didn't want to stay, and he took steps to instigate his own firing.

I don't remember the details here. What did he do?
He wanted to hire his brother Kurt to be defensive coordinator. The club president specifically told him that he didn't have permission to interview Kurt for the job, and Marty, the very next day, sent Kurt a plane ticket to come interview for the job.

That's according to the local beat reporter for the Union-Tribune.

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2. Marty. Spanos fired Marty but only after AJ put him in a no win situation and forced their hands. AJ knew it would likely happen and it's exactly what he wanted.

So your view, apparently, is that AJ didn't want Marty to stay, so instead of recommending to Spanos that Marty be let go so that the Chargers could hire Cam or Wade to be head coach, AJ instead recommended that Marty be kept on board, knowing that Marty would do something down the line to get fired after Cam and Wade had already left and no great head coaching candidates remained available.

My view is that AJ didn't like Marty, but wanted to keep the coaching staff intact as much as possible this year, including Marty.

I guess we'll never know the true answer, so it's a toss-up.

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The Chargers had a better record in Philip Rivers' first year than any year under Drew Brees. I don't know any Charger fans who would rather have Drew Brees. None.

There's one here somewhere. Maybe Gr00vus, but I'm not sure.
and frankly even then I doubt he would think that the Chargers should have signed him to a mega deal while Rivers was on the roster.
It's the bicycle seat guy. To his credit he stuck with the "we should have stuck with Brees" stance early in the year even when Brees was playing poorly. Unlike the typical sharkpool poster that doesn't bring "Chargers shoulda kept Brees!" until week #9. It's funny how the things they should have done change from week to week. I'm sure AJ wishes he could go back and make changes depending on how the wind is blowing that week.
I'm calling dibs on "We should have kept Micheal Turner" schtik right now
Not a chance. I've been saying they should pay $5mil for him next season and nobody agrees with me.
Isn't Michael Turner an unrestricted free agent next year? Why would he want to take $5m to ride the pine (mostly) behind LT2? He could probably get several times as much on the open market. It only takes one desperate team to set his "fair market value."

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The Chargers had a better record in Philip Rivers' first year than any year under Drew Brees. I don't know any Charger fans who would rather have Drew Brees. None.

There's one here somewhere. Maybe Gr00vus, but I'm not sure.
and frankly even then I doubt he would think that the Chargers should have signed him to a mega deal while Rivers was on the roster.
It's the bicycle seat guy. To his credit he stuck with the "we should have stuck with Brees" stance early in the year even when Brees was playing poorly. Unlike the typical sharkpool poster that doesn't bring "Chargers shoulda kept Brees!" until week #9. It's funny how the things they should have done change from week to week. I'm sure AJ wishes he could go back and make changes depending on how the wind is blowing that week.
I'm calling dibs on "We should have kept Micheal Turner" schtik right now
Not a chance. I've been saying they should pay $5mil for him next season and nobody agrees with me.
Isn't Michael Turner an unrestricted free agent next year? Why would he want to take $5m to ride the pine (mostly) behind LT2? He could probably get several times as much on the open market. It only takes one desperate team to set his "fair market value."
I thought the # people had been tossing about was $5mil for SD to put the franchise tag on Turner for a year.Turner, or any player for that matter, have no say in whether a team uses the franchise tag on them or not.

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He wanted to hire his brother Kurt to be defensive coordinator. The club president specifically told him that he didn't have permission to interview Kurt for the job, and Marty, the very next day, sent Kurt a plane ticket to come interview for the job.

The way things look right now, I'm thinking that wasn't such a great decision on Dean's part. I can't imagine Kurt would be doing worse than Ted at this point.Sorry for the hijack.

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He wanted to hire his brother Kurt to be defensive coordinator. The club president specifically told him that he didn't have permission to interview Kurt for the job, and Marty, the very next day, sent Kurt a plane ticket to come interview for the job.

The way things look right now, I'm thinking that wasn't such a great decision on Dean's part. I can't imagine Kurt would be doing worse than Ted at this point.Sorry for the hijack.
:popcorn:

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1. Are you happy with the Chargers 4-4 record so far?

No.

2. Are the Chargers performing to your expectations so far?

No.

3. Who would you say is most responsible for their record this year?

I think Tom Brady, Brett Favre, Dwayne Bowe, and Adrian Peterson have all played big roles. The Chargers' OL has been far too inconsistent, so I'd name all five of those guys -- although injuries have played a role there. I'm not so sure Ted Cottrell has done a good job of calling the defensive plays. The Chargers haven't made good adjustments at halftime, which I think Norv Turner and Ted Cottrell are primarily responsible for.

4. What should they do to be better?

Block, tackle, make adjustments at halftime.

5. Do you feel they have the talent to win a Super Bowl or at least get there?

Yes.

:popcorn:

I would add that I don't think anyone should have expected them to go 14-2 in the regular season this year. That would have been true with Marty, Cam, and Wade still coaching. Some regression was likely, regardless. Before the season, I would have hoped for 14 wins, thought worst case was 10 wins barring major injuries, and thus probably settled on an expected win total of 12. Technically, they can still achieve that, though it obviously is not likely at this point.

However, they can still make the playoffs and IMO are still the division favorite. So here is my view of success from here forward:

If they don't make the playoffs or if they do but fail to win a playoff game, I will consider the season to be a disappointment.

If they make the playoffs and win 1 playoff game, I will consider the season to be a moderate success.

If they make the playoffs and win 2+ playoff games, I will consider the season to be a complete success.

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By the way, it took only 5 minutes to go from this:

How about we just stop period. Arguing over silly issues of sematics is a total waste of time. Not sure how else anyone can explain market value to you. Some people just don't understand these things. Let's move on.

To this:

For those that want to debate semantics and arguer with me over my opinions, I have a few questions for you...

:popcorn:

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If they don't make the playoffs or if they do but fail to win a playoff game, I will consider the season to be a disappointment.If they make the playoffs and win 1 playoff game, I will consider the season to be a moderate success.If they make the playoffs and win 2+ playoff games, I will consider the season to be a complete success.

Start preparing yourself for disappointment.

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If they don't make the playoffs or if they do but fail to win a playoff game, I will consider the season to be a disappointment.If they make the playoffs and win 1 playoff game, I will consider the season to be a moderate success.If they make the playoffs and win 2+ playoff games, I will consider the season to be a complete success.

Start preparing yourself for disappointment.
I didn't assign any likelihood, just laid out my view of things. I think they are going to make the playoffs, given that they are the favorite in the division. So it comes down to winning one playoff game. They have the talent to beat any likely first round opponent, so I think it can happen. They still have half the season to pull it together and gain some momentum to carry into that game. We'll see.

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They have the talent to beat any likely first round opponent

I'm starting to question this. Especially now that Castillo will be out for a while.

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They have the talent to beat any likely first round opponent

I'm starting to question this. Especially now that Castillo will be out for a while.
Is there any new injury news on Shaun Phillips? He's probably been the Chargers best defender this year.

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