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Moe Green

Philip Rivers Is Terrible

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It is also not a strong a Drew Brees'.

You're just flat out wrong there.I think Brees can be a very, very good QB in the right situation but he'll never do this... "It is the 17 yard post pattern when both safeties are playing a deep Cover 2 and the MLB is in an intermediate zone and you have to zip it between all 3 of them before any or all can make a play on the ball or the receiver"
brees is the better NFL QB, and thats all I really care about.
Have you been watching Saints games lately? I wouldn't be any more comfortable with Brees as a starter than Rivers right now.
yes I have and Brees isnt the reason that team looses, its the Defense or lack there of. Please.
You mean the game where he fumbled twice and had two INT's? Brees was absolutely one of the reasons the Saints started 0-4.

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It is also not a strong a Drew Brees'.

You're just flat out wrong there.I think Brees can be a very, very good QB in the right situation but he'll never do this... "It is the 17 yard post pattern when both safeties are playing a deep Cover 2 and the MLB is in an intermediate zone and you have to zip it between all 3 of them before any or all can make a play on the ball or the receiver"
brees is the better NFL QB, and thats all I really care about.
Have you been watching Saints games lately? I wouldn't be any more comfortable with Brees as a starter than Rivers right now.
yes I have and Brees isnt the reason that team looses, its the Defense or lack there of. Please.
You mean the game where he fumbled twice and had two INT's? Brees was absolutely one of the reasons the Saints started 0-4.
care to count Phil's turnovers? Drew is a better NFL QB, I dont think this is even worth debating

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care to count Phil's turnovers?

Sure.I get....Brees 14 INT3 FumL= 17Rivers10 INT5 FumL=15What's your count?
now look at passer rating, TD's, yards completion percentage , etc.

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care to count Phil's turnovers?

Sure.I get....Brees 14 INT3 FumL= 17Rivers10 INT5 FumL=15What's your count?
now look at passer rating, TD's, yards completion percentage , etc.
In Brees's first four games when NO got off to an 0-4 start?58.2019274.1126039.6022558.10252Look, I like Brees. All I said was Brees didn't have a stronger arm. YOU are the one that said Brees wasn't a reason the team loses. How do you look at those first four games and come away thinking Brees wasn't a big part of the reason NO is out of the playoff hunt?

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I also can easily imagine that Marty wasn't too thrilled that Rivers was drafted if he felt Brees was the future. I don't know if that is true or not, I don't recall.

"The Chargers coveted Eli Manning and wanted to select him with their first round pick, which was also the first overall pick of the draft. However, after Eli Manning indicated before the draft that he would not sign with the San Diego Chargers, the Chargers were forced to adjust their plans. Rivers was their first alternative to Manning because the Chargers head coach at the time, Marty Schottenheimer, had coached Rivers at the Senior Bowl and he liked what he saw from Rivers."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Rivers

If Marty wasn't the HC of the Chargers at the time I doubt very much Rivers would even be in SD.

Yet another attack. Weapon of choice; facts.

Edited by BoltBacker

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I also can easily imagine that Marty wasn't too thrilled that Rivers was drafted if he felt Brees was the future. I don't know if that is true or not, I don't recall.

"The Chargers coveted Eli Manning and wanted to select him with their first round pick, which was also the first overall pick of the draft. However, after Eli Manning indicated before the draft that he would not sign with the San Diego Chargers, the Chargers were forced to adjust their plans. Rivers was their first alternative to Manning because the Chargers head coach at the time, Marty Schottenheimer, had coached Rivers at the Senior Bowl and he liked what he saw from Rivers."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Rivers

If Marty wasn't the HC of the Chargers at the time I doubt very much Rivers would even be in SD.

Yes, the Senior Bowl is where Marty developed strongly favorable feelings toward Rivers. Remember that, at the time, Brees was coming off a very poor season.

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It is also not a strong a Drew Brees'.

You're just flat out wrong there.I think Brees can be a very, very good QB in the right situation but he'll never do this... "It is the 17 yard post pattern when both safeties are playing a deep Cover 2 and the MLB is in an intermediate zone and you have to zip it between all 3 of them before any or all can make a play on the ball or the receiver"
brees is the better NFL QB, and thats all I really care about.
Have you been watching Saints games lately? I wouldn't be any more comfortable with Brees as a starter than Rivers right now.
yes I have and Brees isnt the reason that team looses, its the Defense or lack there of. Please.
Agreed. At the end of the day he's getting it done and Rivers isn't. So was Rivers a fluke last year? Was he simply the beneficiary of the system and talent around him? I know the play calling was conservative to help protect him last year but are we now seeing the real Rivers? Can he overcome the adversity and adjust to what's going on around him? I would think he can but it might be a scenario where he needs everything around him to be right so he can fit in.

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I also can easily imagine that Marty wasn't too thrilled that Rivers was drafted if he felt Brees was the future. I don't know if that is true or not, I don't recall.

"The Chargers coveted Eli Manning and wanted to select him with their first round pick, which was also the first overall pick of the draft. However, after Eli Manning indicated before the draft that he would not sign with the San Diego Chargers, the Chargers were forced to adjust their plans. Rivers was their first alternative to Manning because the Chargers head coach at the time, Marty Schottenheimer, had coached Rivers at the Senior Bowl and he liked what he saw from Rivers."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Rivers

If Marty wasn't the HC of the Chargers at the time I doubt very much Rivers would even be in SD.

Yet another attack. Weapon of choice; facts.

Of course it comes across as an attack. That seems to be your only way to deal with it. And I stated in my post, I didn't recall so I'm open to you and others putting all the "facts" out there.

So then it's the other scenario I discussed. As things went along Marty recognized Brees was the best option for the Chargers to win. And AJ wanted Rivers. It's beginning to look like Brees was the best option.

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Brees has played better than Rivers last year and this year, IMO. Rivers has more long-term potential, again IMO, but I think Brees is great as well.

Based on what? Certainly not what we've seen on the field. Rivers is ok but he's not as good as Brees. This is an example of what at times amazes me when you have what amounts to side by side comparisons and can see which one is better and yet still find a way to suggest the worse performing player is better. It's not like we're basing opinion on "unknown" quantities. We have data to suggest strongly which one is better. In fact we knew that before Brees left SD.

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It is also not a strong a Drew Brees'.

You're just flat out wrong there.I think Brees can be a very, very good QB in the right situation but he'll never do this... "It is the 17 yard post pattern when both safeties are playing a deep Cover 2 and the MLB is in an intermediate zone and you have to zip it between all 3 of them before any or all can make a play on the ball or the receiver"
brees is the better NFL QB, and thats all I really care about.
Have you been watching Saints games lately? I wouldn't be any more comfortable with Brees as a starter than Rivers right now.
yes I have and Brees isnt the reason that team looses, its the Defense or lack there of. Please.
Agreed. At the end of the day he's getting it done and Rivers isn't. So was Rivers a fluke last year? Was he simply the beneficiary of the system and talent around him? I know the play calling was conservative to help protect him last year but are we now seeing the real Rivers? Can he overcome the adversity and adjust to what's going on around him? I would think he can but it might be a scenario where he needs everything around him to be right so he can fit in.
New Orleans Saints4-5"Just getting it done since 1967"

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I also can easily imagine that Marty wasn't too thrilled that Rivers was drafted if he felt Brees was the future. I don't know if that is true or not, I don't recall.

"The Chargers coveted Eli Manning and wanted to select him with their first round pick, which was also the first overall pick of the draft. However, after Eli Manning indicated before the draft that he would not sign with the San Diego Chargers, the Chargers were forced to adjust their plans. Rivers was their first alternative to Manning because the Chargers head coach at the time, Marty Schottenheimer, had coached Rivers at the Senior Bowl and he liked what he saw from Rivers."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Rivers

If Marty wasn't the HC of the Chargers at the time I doubt very much Rivers would even be in SD.

Yet another attack. Weapon of choice; facts.

Of course it comes across as an attack. That seems to be your only way to deal with it. And I stated in my post, I didn't recall so I'm open to you and others putting all the "facts" out there.

So then it's the other scenario I discussed. As things went along Marty recognized Brees was the best option for the Chargers to win. And AJ wanted Rivers. It's beginning to look like Brees was the best option.

How do you go from Marty being the one responsible for wanting Rivers AS CLEARLY STATED IN THE ARTICLE QUOTED to AJ wanting Rivers? How? What synapses are missing in your tortured brain to have that much of a faulty, illogical, non-thought process happen? I mean, you ask for facts while completely ignoring the tidal wave of facts people have already delivered to you, all the while sticking to your nonsensical ideas. I'm fascinated. Actually I'm not fascinated, just boggled, and beyond that, not interested in anything you have to say. I'll go back to not reading your posts now. Edited by Gr00vus

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Brees has played better than Rivers last year and this year, IMO. Rivers has more long-term potential, again IMO, but I think Brees is great as well.

Based on what? Certainly not what we've seen on the field.
Yes, based on what I've seen on the field.

Rivers is ok but he's not as good as Brees.

Rivers is not as good in his second year as a starter as Brees is in his sixth year as a starter. At least over the first half of the season. And it's pretty close, even then.

Rivers has a quicker release. Both guys can be really accurate when they are "on," but Rivers more so. Rivers has better height. At least until this year, he was much better against the blitz at making quick reads and getting the ball to his hot receiver.

They both have great leadership qualities. They are both very smart. Brees has more experience.

Brees is more mobile. Brees is cooler (in the sense of being less animated) under pressure.

I say Rivers has the stronger arm, but some will disagree.

Rivers is probably more durable. (He's stronger, anyway.)

They're both a bit streaky, and they both look much better with time in the pocket than without.

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Brees has played better than Rivers last year and this year, IMO. Rivers has more long-term potential, again IMO, but I think Brees is great as well.

Based on what? Certainly not what we've seen on the field.
Yes, based on what I've seen on the field.

Rivers is ok but he's not as good as Brees.

Rivers is not as good in his second year as a starter as Brees is in his sixth year as a starter.
Just wanted to state, there is only a 2 year difference in their ages.

Long term potential is not even remotely close.

Brees has hit and proven his potential thus its not really potential, but a given.

~Son, your potential is going to get me fired.~

Jerry Claiborne - Former Head Football Coach - U of Kentucky

Edited by BigSteelThrill

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I also can easily imagine that Marty wasn't too thrilled that Rivers was drafted if he felt Brees was the future. I don't know if that is true or not, I don't recall.

"The Chargers coveted Eli Manning and wanted to select him with their first round pick, which was also the first overall pick of the draft. However, after Eli Manning indicated before the draft that he would not sign with the San Diego Chargers, the Chargers were forced to adjust their plans. Rivers was their first alternative to Manning because the Chargers head coach at the time, Marty Schottenheimer, had coached Rivers at the Senior Bowl and he liked what he saw from Rivers."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Rivers

If Marty wasn't the HC of the Chargers at the time I doubt very much Rivers would even be in SD.

Yet another attack. Weapon of choice; facts.

Of course it comes across as an attack. That seems to be your only way to deal with it. And I stated in my post, I didn't recall so I'm open to you and others putting all the "facts" out there.

So then it's the other scenario I discussed. As things went along Marty recognized Brees was the best option for the Chargers to win. And AJ wanted Rivers. It's beginning to look like Brees was the best option.

How do you go from Marty being the one responsible for wanting Rivers AS CLEARLY STATED IN THE ARTICLE QUOTED to AJ wanting Rivers? How? What synapses are missing in your tortured brain to have that much of a faulty, illogical, non-thought process happen? I mean, you ask for facts while completely ignoring the tidal wave of facts people have already delivered to you, all the while sticking to your nonsensical ideas. I'm fascinated. Actually I'm not fascinated, just boggled, and beyond that, not interested in anything you have to say. I'll go back to not reading your posts now.
Well that's a relief. I don't know anyone that could possibly answer this post anyway.

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It is also not a strong a Drew Brees'.

You're just flat out wrong there.I think Brees can be a very, very good QB in the right situation but he'll never do this... "It is the 17 yard post pattern when both safeties are playing a deep Cover 2 and the MLB is in an intermediate zone and you have to zip it between all 3 of them before any or all can make a play on the ball or the receiver"
brees is the better NFL QB, and thats all I really care about.
Have you been watching Saints games lately? I wouldn't be any more comfortable with Brees as a starter than Rivers right now.
yes I have and Brees isnt the reason that team looses, its the Defense or lack there of. Please.
Agreed. At the end of the day he's getting it done and Rivers isn't. So was Rivers a fluke last year? Was he simply the beneficiary of the system and talent around him? I know the play calling was conservative to help protect him last year but are we now seeing the real Rivers? Can he overcome the adversity and adjust to what's going on around him? I would think he can but it might be a scenario where he needs everything around him to be right so he can fit in.
New Orleans Saints4-5"Just getting it done since 1967"
This might qualify as one of the most uninformed posts I've seen in a long time. You've outdone yourself with this one. Just when I thought you like to argue with me over strupid non-sense, I now realize you just don't have any football knowledge. It certainly explains many of your other argumentative posts and this one.

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Just wanted to state, there is only a 2 year difference in their ages.

Long term potential is not even remotely close.

Brees has hit and proven his potential thus its not really potential, but a given.

I think Brees is better. But if you just want to go by career performance rather than potential, Rivers has a higher career winning percentage, a higher TD-INT ratio, a higher completion percentage, a higher yards per attempt, and way more Pro Bowls per pass attempt. ;)

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Just wanted to state, there is only a 2 year difference in their ages.

Long term potential is not even remotely close.

Brees has hit and proven his potential thus its not really potential, but a given.

I think Brees is better. But if you just want to go by career performance rather than potential, Rivers has a higher career winning percentage, a higher TD-INT ratio, a higher completion percentage, a higher yards per attempt, and way more Pro Bowls per pass attempt. ;)
Love the stats, but I much much much prefer to base these things on the actual football that we see being played on the field.

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It is also not a strong a Drew Brees'.

You're just flat out wrong there.I think Brees can be a very, very good QB in the right situation but he'll never do this... "It is the 17 yard post pattern when both safeties are playing a deep Cover 2 and the MLB is in an intermediate zone and you have to zip it between all 3 of them before any or all can make a play on the ball or the receiver"
brees is the better NFL QB, and thats all I really care about.
Have you been watching Saints games lately? I wouldn't be any more comfortable with Brees as a starter than Rivers right now.
yes I have and Brees isnt the reason that team looses, its the Defense or lack there of. Please.
Agreed. At the end of the day he's getting it done and Rivers isn't. So was Rivers a fluke last year? Was he simply the beneficiary of the system and talent around him? I know the play calling was conservative to help protect him last year but are we now seeing the real Rivers? Can he overcome the adversity and adjust to what's going on around him? I would think he can but it might be a scenario where he needs everything around him to be right so he can fit in.
New Orleans Saints4-5"Just getting it done since 1967"
This might qualify as one of the most uninformed posts I've seen in a long time. You've outdone yourself with this one. Just when I thought you like to argue with me over strupid non-sense, I now realize you just don't have any football knowledge. It certainly explains many of your other argumentative posts and this one.
Whats uninformed about it?

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First off, nice take. Nice to have a two-way conversation without feeling attacked. You could be right about many things here but I have to wonder about the basic premise of your points. Think about the part where you said "I don't think the Marty A.J. split had as much to do with leadership issues, as they just fundamentally disagreed on how to build and run a championship football team." Marty was hired by Butler while AJ was there. And AJ is a Butler disciple so they are very much alike. So to suggest that they are fundamentaly opposed doesn't seem to make sense as they were all in this from the beginning. They knew exactly what they were getting when he was hired. You have to think that something somewhere changed between these two. And I believe it was a series of events that led to a break point. What may the case is that Marty and AJ differed in how to proceed to the next level. I read news accounts suggesting that Marty did not want to lose certain players that AJ wanted gone. Brees was the biggest name but I'm sure thre were others that Marty would rather of had. I also can easily imagine that Marty wasn't too thrilled that Rivers was drafted if he felt Brees was the future. I don't know if that is true or not, I don't recall. But it became clear later that Marty wanted Brees and AJ wanted Rivers starting. Seems it became very contentious at that point. To make matter worse AJ and Spanos began to take authority away from a seasoned vetern coach like Marty and that's never going to go over well. Add a slap in the face BS offer and you have a bad ending looking for the right excuse to happen.

You're probably right about the Norv hiring. But if you were a sought after coach, is the ideal environment to walk into? It has to to be concern at least for many candidates.

Tough to say what A.J. thought of Marty at the time he was hired. It wasn't really his call, and he was far more involved in player scouting and development than anything else while he was Assistant GM. Clearly the relationship was worse at the end than it was at the beginning, and I am sure there is more to it than any of us will ever know. Maybe Marty made a play for the GM position after Butler's passing? Or lobbied for another candidate? Who knows. But at the end of the day, it was clearly a personal conflict between A.J. and Marty. I don't think that will be an issue for any future potential hires, unless they are good personal friends with Marty (this is where you put the Bill Cowher reference). And I don't see where they took any authority away from Marty. The only argument here would be they wouldn't let him hire the coaches he wanted. But that had nothing to do with A.J. That was because he wanted an exception to an organizational policy (one which he had previously received an exception to). He wasn't given that exception. He could have hired any defensive coordinator that he wanted that he wasn't related to.

You keep coming back to Brees/Rivers thing being a big deal in their relationship. I don't think it was. Give Marty some credit here, he his smart enough to understand why the Drew situation resolved the way it did. And it isn't like he didn't like Rivers, he was as much a reason for Rivers being a Charger as anyone. But like any coach, he would take the proven veteran over the unproven backup. There were bigger issues in their relationship than this.

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First off, nice take. Nice to have a two-way conversation without feeling attacked. You could be right about many things here but I have to wonder about the basic premise of your points. Think about the part where you said "I don't think the Marty A.J. split had as much to do with leadership issues, as they just fundamentally disagreed on how to build and run a championship football team." Marty was hired by Butler while AJ was there. And AJ is a Butler disciple so they are very much alike. So to suggest that they are fundamentaly opposed doesn't seem to make sense as they were all in this from the beginning. They knew exactly what they were getting when he was hired. You have to think that something somewhere changed between these two. And I believe it was a series of events that led to a break point. What may the case is that Marty and AJ differed in how to proceed to the next level. I read news accounts suggesting that Marty did not want to lose certain players that AJ wanted gone. Brees was the biggest name but I'm sure thre were others that Marty would rather of had. I also can easily imagine that Marty wasn't too thrilled that Rivers was drafted if he felt Brees was the future. I don't know if that is true or not, I don't recall. But it became clear later that Marty wanted Brees and AJ wanted Rivers starting. Seems it became very contentious at that point. To make matter worse AJ and Spanos began to take authority away from a seasoned vetern coach like Marty and that's never going to go over well. Add a slap in the face BS offer and you have a bad ending looking for the right excuse to happen.

You're probably right about the Norv hiring. But if you were a sought after coach, is the ideal environment to walk into? It has to to be concern at least for many candidates.

Tough to say what A.J. thought of Marty at the time he was hired. It wasn't really his call, and he was far more involved in player scouting and development than anything else while he was Assistant GM. Clearly the relationship was worse at the end than it was at the beginning, and I am sure there is more to it than any of us will ever know. Maybe Marty made a play for the GM position after Butler's passing? Or lobbied for another candidate? Who knows. But at the end of the day, it was clearly a personal conflict between A.J. and Marty. I don't think that will be an issue for any future potential hires, unless they are good personal friends with Marty (this is where you put the Bill Cowher reference). And I don't see where they took any authority away from Marty. The only argument here would be they wouldn't let him hire the coaches he wanted. But that had nothing to do with A.J. That was because he wanted an exception to an organizational policy (one which he had previously received an exception to). He wasn't given that exception. He could have hired any defensive coordinator that he wanted that he wasn't related to.

You keep coming back to Brees/Rivers thing being a big deal in their relationship. I don't think it was. Give Marty some credit here, he his smart enough to understand why the Drew situation resolved the way it did. And it isn't like he didn't like Rivers, he was as much a reason for Rivers being a Charger as anyone. But like any coach, he would take the proven veteran over the unproven backup. There were bigger issues in their relationship than this.

Agreed 100% with that last statement.

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Brees has played better than Rivers last year and this year, IMO. Rivers has more long-term potential, again IMO, but I think Brees is great as well.

Based on what? Certainly not what we've seen on the field. Rivers is ok but he's not as good as Brees. This is an example of what at times amazes me when you have what amounts to side by side comparisons and can see which one is better and yet still find a way to suggest the worse performing player is better. It's not like we're basing opinion on "unknown" quantities. We have data to suggest strongly which one is better. In fact we knew that before Brees left SD.
Well, I would base it on how Rivers looks after 1.5 years as a starter compared to how Brees looked at the same point in his development. As bad as Rivers has played at times this year, he has never looked as putrid as Brees looked in 2003. I mean Drew had to be benched in favor of a geriatric Doug Flutie that year. This is where you say, I don't care how Brees played in 2003, I only care how he is playing now. Well, that is the problem you get when you compare a guy who has started 5.5 years to a guy who has started 1.5 years. To expect Rivers to be on the same point in his development after 1.5 years that Drew is at after 5.5 years is a little unfair.

Drew did make a huge jump in his development in his third year, and there is no guarantee that Philip will be able to make a similar improvement in his play. But based on their play in their first two years as starters, I don't think it is unreasonable to say that Rivers has more long-term potential than Brees. If for no other reason than the fact that their current numbers aren't that dissimilar, and it is unlikely that Drew will see another significant improvement in play, and it is likely Philip will.

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Brees has played better than Rivers last year and this year, IMO. Rivers has more long-term potential, again IMO, but I think Brees is great as well.

Based on what? Certainly not what we've seen on the field.
Yes, based on what I've seen on the field.

Rivers is ok but he's not as good as Brees.

Rivers is not as good in his second year as a starter as Brees is in his sixth year as a starter.
Just wanted to state, there is only a 2 year difference in their ages.

Long term potential is not even remotely close.

Brees has hit and proven his potential thus its not really potential, but a given.

Brees career QB rating; 87.2

Rivers career QB rating; 86.2

I honestly don't know what all this fuss is about. Brees has yet to prove that he's clearly better than Rivers even now and Brees has been starting for six years now.

Brees 2nd year starter; 67.5

Rivers 2nd year starter; 77.9

For all the people that think that Rivers has proven he's not going to be good... did Brees prove he wasn't going to be any good in his 2nd year?

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I also can easily imagine that Marty wasn't too thrilled that Rivers was drafted if he felt Brees was the future. I don't know if that is true or not, I don't recall.

"The Chargers coveted Eli Manning and wanted to select him with their first round pick, which was also the first overall pick of the draft. However, after Eli Manning indicated before the draft that he would not sign with the San Diego Chargers, the Chargers were forced to adjust their plans. Rivers was their first alternative to Manning because the Chargers head coach at the time, Marty Schottenheimer, had coached Rivers at the Senior Bowl and he liked what he saw from Rivers."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Rivers

If Marty wasn't the HC of the Chargers at the time I doubt very much Rivers would even be in SD.

Yet another attack. Weapon of choice; facts.

Of course it comes across as an attack.
I'm simply cutting and pasting something that shows what you were saying is 100% inaccurate. Now, any facts that disprove your position are "attacks"?

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It is also not a strong a Drew Brees'.

You're just flat out wrong there.I think Brees can be a very, very good QB in the right situation but he'll never do this... "It is the 17 yard post pattern when both safeties are playing a deep Cover 2 and the MLB is in an intermediate zone and you have to zip it between all 3 of them before any or all can make a play on the ball or the receiver"
brees is the better NFL QB, and thats all I really care about.
Have you been watching Saints games lately? I wouldn't be any more comfortable with Brees as a starter than Rivers right now.
yes I have and Brees isnt the reason that team looses, its the Defense or lack there of. Please.
Agreed. At the end of the day he's getting it done and Rivers isn't. So was Rivers a fluke last year? Was he simply the beneficiary of the system and talent around him? I know the play calling was conservative to help protect him last year but are we now seeing the real Rivers? Can he overcome the adversity and adjust to what's going on around him? I would think he can but it might be a scenario where he needs everything around him to be right so he can fit in.
New Orleans Saints4-5"Just getting it done since 1967"
This might qualify as one of the most uninformed posts I've seen in a long time. You've outdone yourself with this one. Just when I thought you like to argue with me over strupid non-sense, I now realize you just don't have any football knowledge. It certainly explains many of your other argumentative posts and this one.
And this isn't an attack?

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For all the people that think that Rivers has proven he's not going to be good... did Brees prove he wasn't going to be any good in his 2nd year?

:mellow: There is some pretty atrocious overreacting going on in this thread... and that is saying a LOT considering the forum that it is a part of.

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Love the stats, but I much much much prefer to base these things on the actual football that we see being played on the field.

So you prefer discussions where people say "I saw this, and if you don't see the same thing you don't know anything about football"? :mellow: Myself, I kinda like it when people back up their arguments with facts. Maybe it's just me.

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Brees has played better than Rivers last year and this year, IMO. Rivers has more long-term potential, again IMO, but I think Brees is great as well.

Based on what? Certainly not what we've seen on the field. Rivers is ok but he's not as good as Brees. This is an example of what at times amazes me when you have what amounts to side by side comparisons and can see which one is better and yet still find a way to suggest the worse performing player is better. It's not like we're basing opinion on "unknown" quantities. We have data to suggest strongly which one is better. In fact we knew that before Brees left SD.
Well, I would base it on how Rivers looks after 1.5 years as a starter compared to how Brees looked at the same point in his development. As bad as Rivers has played at times this year, he has never looked as putrid as Brees looked in 2003. I mean Drew had to be benched in favor of a geriatric Doug Flutie that year. This is where you say, I don't care how Brees played in 2003, I only care how he is playing now. Well, that is the problem you get when you compare a guy who has started 5.5 years to a guy who has started 1.5 years. To expect Rivers to be on the same point in his development after 1.5 years that Drew is at after 5.5 years is a little unfair.

Drew did make a huge jump in his development in his third year, and there is no guarantee that Philip will be able to make a similar improvement in his play. But based on their play in their first two years as starters, I don't think it is unreasonable to say that Rivers has more long-term potential than Brees. If for no other reason than the fact that their current numbers aren't that dissimilar, and it is unlikely that Drew will see another significant improvement in play, and it is likely Philip will.

Your point is fair when you say Rivers deserves more time. But what was being suggested is that Rivers is the better QB based on his long-term potential. I can't agree with that. I think Brees is the better QB between them and that's weighing potential. With that said, I do expect Rivers will get better. But I do not think he will become better than Brees.

But another factor to consider is that Brees did not have the same level of talent around him that Rivers does as a new starter. Brees had to learn how to grow and develop along with the team. Rivers could not of asked for a better situation to begin his career. So while you make some good observations, you also need to consider the differences in circumstances that easily benefitted Rivers.

Which makes one wonder, why would the Chargers want to start all over again with a new QB? Seems they had a good one and making this change wasn't doing anything to help the team. If anything, making this change set them back. When compounded with the coaching changes maybe that was too much change for even this talented group.

So is it fair to say that you would choose Rivers over Brees in a dynasty league?

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Brees has played better than Rivers last year and this year, IMO. Rivers has more long-term potential, again IMO, but I think Brees is great as well.

Based on what? Certainly not what we've seen on the field.
Yes, based on what I've seen on the field.

Rivers is ok but he's not as good as Brees.

Rivers is not as good in his second year as a starter as Brees is in his sixth year as a starter.
Just wanted to state, there is only a 2 year difference in their ages.

Long term potential is not even remotely close.

Brees has hit and proven his potential thus its not really potential, but a given.

Brees career QB rating; 87.2

Rivers career QB rating; 86.2

I honestly don't know what all this fuss is about. Brees has yet to prove that he's clearly better than Rivers even now and Brees has been starting for six years now.

Brees 2nd year starter; 67.5

Rivers 2nd year starter; 77.9

For all the people that think that Rivers has proven he's not going to be good... did Brees prove he wasn't going to be any good in his 2nd year?

From my perspective, it's not a question of will Rivers be a good QB. I think he has been and will be an ok QB. But I do think Brees is a better QB, today and next year and the following. Let's face it, when you have the talent Rivers has around him he shouldn't be struggling this much. Brees didn't get that much talent to start his career. He had to work with much less than Rivers has around him.

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I also can easily imagine that Marty wasn't too thrilled that Rivers was drafted if he felt Brees was the future. I don't know if that is true or not, I don't recall.

"The Chargers coveted Eli Manning and wanted to select him with their first round pick, which was also the first overall pick of the draft. However, after Eli Manning indicated before the draft that he would not sign with the San Diego Chargers, the Chargers were forced to adjust their plans. Rivers was their first alternative to Manning because the Chargers head coach at the time, Marty Schottenheimer, had coached Rivers at the Senior Bowl and he liked what he saw from Rivers."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Rivers

If Marty wasn't the HC of the Chargers at the time I doubt very much Rivers would even be in SD.

Yet another attack. Weapon of choice; facts.

Of course it comes across as an attack.
I'm simply cutting and pasting something that shows what you were saying is 100% inaccurate. Now, any facts that disprove your position are "attacks"?
Reading comprehension down? You'd be better served to actually read what I posted instead being in such a rush to criticize. You seem to want to find something to nitpick over rather than have a debate of opinions. And again you missed the point I was making. But I'm getting used to that.

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care to count Phil's turnovers?

Sure.I get....Brees 14 INT3 FumL= 17Rivers10 INT5 FumL=15What's your count?
now look at passer rating, TD's, yards completion percentage , etc.
In Brees's first four games when NO got off to an 0-4 start?58.2019274.1126039.6022558.10252Look, I like Brees. All I said was Brees didn't have a stronger arm. YOU are the one that said Brees wasn't a reason the team loses. How do you look at those first four games and come away thinking Brees wasn't a big part of the reason NO is out of the playoff hunt?
NO is clearly in the playoff hunt in the NFC. not sure of your point here. I could grab Rivers stats from the Bolts four losses and they would look horrible as well. Right now brees is the better QB, right now as a charger fan is what I care about. Right now if SD had Brees/Marty instead of Rivers/norv we would have a better chance to compete for a Superbowl. Edited by bicycle_seat_sniffer

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Love the stats, but I much much much prefer to base these things on the actual football that we see being played on the field.

So you prefer discussions where people say "I saw this, and if you don't see the same thing you don't know anything about football"? :whistle: Myself, I kinda like it when people back up their arguments with facts. Maybe it's just me.
No, I meant for myself. When I make my judgements.

I understand some peope just like to look at stats.

I understand other people see things through different eyes and different colored glasses.

But from my position and my perspective, give me football on the field (particularly QB and OLine - for myself) as opposed to stats.

I did say I love the stats he posted as they are solid if we are talking about things from a statistical standpoint.

But my preference is from watching the game on the field and taking it from that perspective.

Edited by BigSteelThrill

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FTR: The stats I posted on age were incorrect. It's almost a 3 year dif in age (which is better for Rivers).

Stats...

DB Ages 22 through 28

2001 San Diego Chargers 1   0 27 15   55.6  221 8.19 40 1 0 2/12 4 1 94.8 2002 San Diego Chargers 16 16 526 320 60.8 3284 6.24 52 17 16 24/180 40 4 76.9 2003 San Diego Chargers 11 11 356 205 57.6 2108 5.92 68 11 15 21/178 28 5 67.5 2004 San Diego Chargers 15 15 400 262 65.5 3159 7.90 79 27 7 18/131 40 9 104.8 2005 San Diego Chargers 16 16 500 323 64.6 3576 7.15 54 24 15 27/223 46 4 89.2 2006 New Orleans Saints  16 16 554 356 64.3 4418 7.97 86 26 11 18/105 61 18 96.2 2007 New Orleans Saints  9  9 371 250 67.4 2447 6.60 58 14 12 6/45 26 4 84.8 TOTAL   84 83 2734 1731 63.3 19213 7.03 86 120 76 116/874 245 45 87.2
PR Ages 23 through 26 (in Dec)
2004 San Diego Chargers 2   0 8 5	 62.5 33 4.13 13 1 0 1/10 0 0 110.9 2005 San Diego Chargers 2   0 22 12   54.5 115 5.23 22 0 1 3/16 1 0 50.4 2006 San Diego Chargers 16 16 460 284 61.7 3388 7.37 57 22 9 27/144 41 5 92.0 2007 San Diego Chargers 9   9 255 155 60.8 1743 6.84 49 10 10 13/107 21 2 77.9 TOTAL   29 25 745 456 61.2 5279 7.09 57 33 20 44/277 63 7 86.2
To date, thus far both had their best QB rating years when they were about 25. Edited by BigSteelThrill

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Love the stats, but I much much much prefer to base these things on the actual football that we see being played on the field.

So you prefer discussions where people say "I saw this, and if you don't see the same thing you don't know anything about football"? :confused: Myself, I kinda like it when people back up their arguments with facts. Maybe it's just me.
No, I meant for myself. When I make my judgements.

I understand some peope just like to look at stats.

I understand other people see things through different eyes and different colored glasses.

But from my position and my perspective, give me football on the field (particularly QB and OLine - for myself) as opposed to stats.

I did say I love the stats he posted as they are solid if we are talking about things from a statistical standpoint.

But my preference is from watching the game on the field and taking it from that perspective.

:confused: Cool enough. I thought you were being facetious when you said "I love the stats." My bad.

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care to count Phil's turnovers?

Sure.

I get....

Brees

14 INT

3 FumL

= 17

Rivers

10 INT

5 FumL

=15

What's your count?

now look at passer rating, TD's, yards completion percentage , etc.
In Brees's first four games when NO got off to an 0-4 start?

58.2

0

192

74.1

1

260

39.6

0

225

58.1

0

252

Look, I like Brees. All I said was Brees didn't have a stronger arm. YOU are the one that said Brees wasn't a reason the team loses. How do you look at those first four games and come away thinking Brees wasn't a big part of the reason NO is out of the playoff hunt?

NO is clearly in the playoff hunt in the NFC. not sure of your point here. I could grab Rivers stats from the Bolts four losses and they would look horrible as well.

Right now brees is the better QB, right now as a charger fan is what I care about. Right now if SD had Brees/Marty instead of Rivers/norv we would have a better chance to compete for a Superbowl.

:confused: Your bolded comment is all I've been saying in a nutshell.

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Right now if SD had Brees/Marty instead of Rivers/norv we would have a better chance to compete for a Superbowl.

:goodposting: Your bolded comment is all I've been saying in a nutshell.
Save it then. Neither had much chance of staying in San Diego. Marty threw Brees out there in a meaningless game against Denver because he wanted his ten-win incentive clause in his contract to kick in, which ended up getting Brees hurt. It made a difficult decision for A.J. into one that almost couldn't have been made any other way. Marty also engineered his own oustering, so he wasn't going to be there this year either. If you want to linger into the world of conjecture, be my guest.... but it reminds me of a little poems about how if wishes and buts were candy and nuts, we'd all have a very merry Christmas.

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Right now if SD had Brees/Marty instead of Rivers/norv we would have a better chance to compete for a Superbowl.

:goodposting: Your bolded comment is all I've been saying in a nutshell.
Save it then. Neither had much chance of staying in San Diego. Marty threw Brees out there in a meaningless game against Denver because he wanted his ten-win incentive clause in his contract to kick in, which ended up getting Brees hurt. It made a difficult decision for A.J. into one that almost couldn't have been made any other way. Marty also engineered his own oustering, so he wasn't going to be there this year either. If you want to linger into the world of conjecture, be my guest.... but it reminds me of a little poems about how if wishes and buts were candy and nuts, we'd all have a very merry Christmas.
:mellow:

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Right now if SD had Brees/Marty instead of Rivers/norv we would have a better chance to compete for a Superbowl.

:lmao: Your bolded comment is all I've been saying in a nutshell.
Save it then. Neither had much chance of staying in San Diego. Marty threw Brees out there in a meaningless game against Denver because he wanted his ten-win incentive clause in his contract to kick in, which ended up getting Brees hurt. It made a difficult decision for A.J. into one that almost couldn't have been made any other way. Marty also engineered his own oustering, so he wasn't going to be there this year either. If you want to linger into the world of conjecture, be my guest.... but it reminds me of a little poems about how if wishes and buts were candy and nuts, we'd all have a very merry Christmas.
:rolleyes:

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Right now if SD had Brees/Marty instead of Rivers/norv we would have a better chance to compete for a Superbowl.

:potkettle: Your bolded comment is all I've been saying in a nutshell.
Save it then. Neither had much chance of staying in San Diego. Marty threw Brees out there in a meaningless game against Denver because he wanted his ten-win incentive clause in his contract to kick in, which ended up getting Brees hurt. It made a difficult decision for A.J. into one that almost couldn't have been made any other way. Marty also engineered his own oustering, so he wasn't going to be there this year either. If you want to linger into the world of conjecture, be my guest.... but it reminds me of a little poems about how if wishes and buts were candy and nuts, we'd all have a very merry Christmas.
And your post isn't conjecture? I get it, it's ok for you just not anyone else that shares a differing opinion. How ironic and surprising.

:popcorn:

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Right now if SD had Brees/Marty instead of Rivers/norv we would have a better chance to compete for a Superbowl.

:goodposting: Your bolded comment is all I've been saying in a nutshell.
Save it then. Neither had much chance of staying in San Diego. Marty threw Brees out there in a meaningless game against Denver because he wanted his ten-win incentive clause in his contract to kick in, which ended up getting Brees hurt. It made a difficult decision for A.J. into one that almost couldn't have been made any other way. Marty also engineered his own oustering, so he wasn't going to be there this year either. If you want to linger into the world of conjecture, be my guest.... but it reminds me of a little poems about how if wishes and buts were candy and nuts, we'd all have a very merry Christmas.
And your post isn't conjecture? I get it, it's ok for you just not anyone else that shares a differing opinion. How ironic and surprising.

:lmao:

What other explanation is there for Marty to have played Brees in that game when:

1. San Diego was out of the playoffs.

2. Brees was going to be a free agent.

3. Rivers was still sitting on the bench behind Brees in his second year, having basically not played.

Do you think that was a good decision on Marty's part?

Do you think that made A.J.'s decision on Brees easier or harder?

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Right now if SD had Brees/Marty instead of Rivers/norv we would have a better chance to compete for a Superbowl.

:goodposting: Your bolded comment is all I've been saying in a nutshell.
Save it then. Neither had much chance of staying in San Diego. Marty threw Brees out there in a meaningless game against Denver because he wanted his ten-win incentive clause in his contract to kick in, which ended up getting Brees hurt. It made a difficult decision for A.J. into one that almost couldn't have been made any other way. Marty also engineered his own oustering, so he wasn't going to be there this year either. If you want to linger into the world of conjecture, be my guest.... but it reminds me of a little poems about how if wishes and buts were candy and nuts, we'd all have a very merry Christmas.
:lmao:
:goodposting:

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Gut feeling. Rivers has a nice day this week against the Jags. I see lots of dumpoffs to LT. Nothing huge but

17 COMP

230 YDS

2 TD

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care to count Phil's turnovers?

Sure.

I get....

Brees

14 INT

3 FumL

= 17

Rivers

10 INT

5 FumL

=15

What's your count?

now look at passer rating, TD's, yards completion percentage , etc.
In Brees's first four games when NO got off to an 0-4 start?

58.2

0

192

74.1

1

260

39.6

0

225

58.1

0

252

Look, I like Brees. All I said was Brees didn't have a stronger arm. YOU are the one that said Brees wasn't a reason the team loses. How do you look at those first four games and come away thinking Brees wasn't a big part of the reason NO is out of the playoff hunt?

NO is clearly in the playoff hunt in the NFC. not sure of your point here. I could grab Rivers stats from the Bolts four losses and they would look horrible as well.

Right now brees is the better QB, right now as a charger fan is what I care about. Right now if SD had Brees/Marty Cam/Wade instead of Rivers/norv/Ted we would have a better chance to compete for a Superbowl.

Fixed. I mean, as long as we are talking about things that had about a zero percent chance of happening in the real world.

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Brees has played better than Rivers last year and this year, IMO. Rivers has more long-term potential, again IMO, but I think Brees is great as well.

Based on what? Certainly not what we've seen on the field. Rivers is ok but he's not as good as Brees. This is an example of what at times amazes me when you have what amounts to side by side comparisons and can see which one is better and yet still find a way to suggest the worse performing player is better. It's not like we're basing opinion on "unknown" quantities. We have data to suggest strongly which one is better. In fact we knew that before Brees left SD.
Well, I would base it on how Rivers looks after 1.5 years as a starter compared to how Brees looked at the same point in his development. As bad as Rivers has played at times this year, he has never looked as putrid as Brees looked in 2003. I mean Drew had to be benched in favor of a geriatric Doug Flutie that year. This is where you say, I don't care how Brees played in 2003, I only care how he is playing now. Well, that is the problem you get when you compare a guy who has started 5.5 years to a guy who has started 1.5 years. To expect Rivers to be on the same point in his development after 1.5 years that Drew is at after 5.5 years is a little unfair.

Drew did make a huge jump in his development in his third year, and there is no guarantee that Philip will be able to make a similar improvement in his play. But based on their play in their first two years as starters, I don't think it is unreasonable to say that Rivers has more long-term potential than Brees. If for no other reason than the fact that their current numbers aren't that dissimilar, and it is unlikely that Drew will see another significant improvement in play, and it is likely Philip will.

Your point is fair when you say Rivers deserves more time. But what was being suggested is that Rivers is the better QB based on his long-term potential. I can't agree with that. I think Brees is the better QB between them and that's weighing potential. With that said, I do expect Rivers will get better. But I do not think he will become better than Brees.

But another factor to consider is that Brees did not have the same level of talent around him that Rivers does as a new starter. Brees had to learn how to grow and develop along with the team. Rivers could not of asked for a better situation to begin his career. So while you make some good observations, you also need to consider the differences in circumstances that easily benefitted Rivers.

Which makes one wonder, why would the Chargers want to start all over again with a new QB? Seems they had a good one and making this change wasn't doing anything to help the team. If anything, making this change set them back. When compounded with the coaching changes maybe that was too much change for even this talented group.

So is it fair to say that you would choose Rivers over Brees in a dynasty league?

Actually, I think Rivers and Drew have had pretty comparable talent around them. Rivers has a more polished and complete Antonio Gates, but I think Brees had more accomplished receivers. That is all debatable though.

The Chargers didn't want to start all over again with a new QB. But after Drew's meltdown in 2003, the Chargers felt they had to do something to address that situation. Then, when Drew raised his game in 2004, they then had a real conundrum. Compound that with Drew's shoulder injury at the end of 2005, and the Chargers had a difficult decision to make. Time will tell if they made the right decision.

Considering that Rivers and Brees have reasonably comparable numbers, and that Rivers is much more likely than Brees to improve on those numbers, yeah, I would have to take Rivers over Drew in a dynasty league. But I wouldn't be unhappy with either of them.

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Right now if SD had Brees/Marty instead of Rivers/norv we would have a better chance to compete for a Superbowl.

:goodposting: Your bolded comment is all I've been saying in a nutshell.
Save it then. Neither had much chance of staying in San Diego. Marty threw Brees out there in a meaningless game against Denver because he wanted his ten-win incentive clause in his contract to kick in, which ended up getting Brees hurt. It made a difficult decision for A.J. into one that almost couldn't have been made any other way. Marty also engineered his own oustering, so he wasn't going to be there this year either. If you want to linger into the world of conjecture, be my guest.... but it reminds me of a little poems about how if wishes and buts were candy and nuts, we'd all have a very merry Christmas.
And your post isn't conjecture? I get it, it's ok for you just not anyone else that shares a differing opinion. How ironic and surprising.

:hophead:

What other explanation is there for Marty to have played Brees in that game when:

1. San Diego was out of the playoffs.

2. Brees was going to be a free agent.

3. Rivers was still sitting on the bench behind Brees in his second year, having basically not played.

Do you think that was a good decision on Marty's part?

Do you think that made A.J.'s decision on Brees easier or harder?

So again you want to make conjecture on this and at the same time be critical of others for soing the same thing if talk about AJ. But I'll play along. Hindsight is always 20/20. That same decision is made every year by coaches. And they get criticized no matter what decision they make. But to say it was a bad decision is fair because of the way it turned out. It's not unusal to have back ups remain on the bench in those situations. But if it were me, I would want to get him some much needed reps to develop him.

As for Brees and his FA status, again hindsight is 20/20 and I guess that can be debated over and over. But I think when you look back, SD never made a fair market offer. Like Marty, they made an offer that seemed insulting. That's why Brees accpeted the higher offer and moved on. The offer SD made doesn't send the right message. It doesn't suggest they want him to be their starter and/or leader. And when you're already proven in that capacity it becomes a insulting. But then again, if AJ wanted him he would of made a fair market offer.

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As for Brees and his FA status, again hindsight is 20/20 and I guess that can be debated over and over. But I think when you look back, SD never made a fair market offer.

There wasn't really a market for him. There were three teams who made him an offer (Saints, Chargers, Dolphins), and the Dolphins ended up pulling theirs off the table. So the Chargers made the second best offer out of 32 teams.

The Saints offered a lot of guaranteed money. I don't think there was any way any other team was going to match the Saints' offer without being really desperate for a QB. The Giants didn't match the Saints' offer; the Bills didn't; the Broncos didn't; the Cardinals didn't; ... etc. ...; and the Chargers didn't. But out of all the rest of the teams, the Chargers came closest.

I agree with you about hindsight being 20/20. But I disagree that the Chargers didn't make a "fair market" offer. There was no market.

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....NO is clearly in the playoff hunt in the NFC. not sure of your point here. I could grab Rivers stats from the Bolts four losses and they would look horrible as well. Right now brees is the better QB, right now as a charger fan is what I care about. Right now if SD had Brees/Marty instead of Rivers/norv we would have a better chance to compete for a Superbowl.

Man BSS, you (and other Charger fans) have really really got to stop looking backward and start looking forward. What's done...is done. You've got Rivers and Norv, you've got to make that work.Personally my take on this whole thing; there's a factor that's being somewhat ignored in the Rivers v. Brees debate. And that's the fact that this year in particular Rivers is dealing with a coaching change. Maybe it's just me, but I think a HUGE part of SD's troubles stem from simple playcalling and familiarity of the coaching staff with the weapons they've got. I think there are some SERIOUS communication problems going on between the new coaching staff and the players. It really doesn't look like a happy ship where both sides come together, develop a plan, buy into the plan, practice the plan, and then execute it on gameday. There's something seriously amiss, and Rivers # are paying for it (as well as his confidence). Anyone that thinks he looks anything the QB he was last year needs to take off the River-colored glasses. He's seeing phantom pressure at this point, and whoever made the point that he has serious velocity problems when throwing off of poor footing - falling backward, sideways, pressure around his feet - is DEAD ON.I think eventually Norv and Co. will get comfortable. I think that will make Rivers and his O-line comfortable. When? Who knows, I think we'll see it happen before the end of this season. The real question is...in time to make sure they slide into the playoffs? Or will it be too late? Edited by IndyHavoc

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Save it then. Neither had much chance of staying in San Diego. Marty threw Brees out there in a meaningless game against Denver because he wanted his ten-win incentive clause in his contract to kick in, which ended up getting Brees hurt. It made a difficult decision for A.J. into one that almost couldn't have been made any other way. Marty also engineered his own oustering, so he wasn't going to be there this year either. If you want to linger into the world of conjecture, be my guest.... but it reminds me of a little poems about how if wishes and buts were candy and nuts, we'd all have a very merry Christmas.

And your post isn't conjecture?
Based of your use of it in this post and the one that followed, I cannot be certain that you even know what the word means. If I assume that you are pointing to the part that you bolded, I am curious as to what piece of it you feel is conjecture? That it was a meaningless game? That Brees started that game? That Schottenheimer was the one who appointed Brees as the starter to that game? That Schottenheimer had an incentive clause for ten wins? That Brees ended up getting hurt in that game?

None of this is conjecture.

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