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Mortgage Rates (9 Viewers)

I’ve had a crazy few days in my journey to refi my house. It started on Wednesday evening when I got a document they wanted me to e-sign with what I guess is the final LE. Charging over 6k in closing costs when they told me it would be much lower. 

So I just got on google the next afternoon after spending that whole morning stewing over it. I sent emails to 2 guys (intentionally guys because I’m tired of dealing with women) a couple of towns over from me that looked like they had decent reviews. 
 

One of them answered almost immediately. I sent him over my LE and he was I like, I can do much better. So I talked with him on the phone for like an hour and he did another application. (Back to square one lol). 
 

Meanwhile the second guy had also emailed me a couple hours later. So the next day I emailed him back and said let’s not even think about the LE I originally talked about because I have this new, better one from this guy right down the road from you. (of course they know each other). He then comes back and says our fees are lower than Gateway, I can offer an even lower rate and we might be able to get you a waiver on the appraisal. 
 

By this time, I have a pretty good rapport going with guy #1 and I just shoot him screen shot of email with guy #2. By lunch time yesterday he emails and says can you take a call real quick. So I talk to him and he’s talked with his boss and sweetened his deal even more and got me down to a 2.875 on a 30 year!! 👀 He sends ne another LE.  I forwarded that to guy #2 and he comes back and says I can’t beat that, you’re in good hands with Eric.

So after all of that, late yesterday afternoon I finally emailed the place I’m 2 months into this with now and said I’m sorry it didn’t work out and I want to end my application with you. 

The main lady at the place then emailed me back and said let me see the LE you just got please, we are planning on closing you next week. So I sent it. Here is what she sent back:

All right let me get with the lender and see if there's anything we can do

I think the moral of this story is that it’s a buyers market right now and competition is very good thing for the buyer of a loan.

 
New email I just got:

im checking with pricing to see if we can match your rate offer. 

thanks for letting me check into this for you
 

Damn it feels good to have leverage 😂

I need to get this guy Eric some money somehow if they match this and I just go with them to get this over with. 

Not sure if I should reply lol. 

 
New email I just got:

im checking with pricing to see if we can match your rate offer. 

thanks for letting me check into this for you
 

Damn it feels good to have leverage 😂

I need to get this guy Eric some money somehow if they match this and I just go with them to get this over with. 

Not sure if I should reply lol. 
Even if they match it, why would you go with a firm that was clearly not trying to get you the best deal? 

 
Even if they match it, why would you go with a firm that was clearly not trying to get you the best deal? 
To get this done...

in fairness to them, rates have dropped even more since I started this and really cratered the last 2 days. Doesn’t excuse them trying to gouge me on fees though  I mean when I paid my debt down 2500 the past couple of months while this is s going on I wasn’t expecting you to just make my fees higher so the loan amount remains the same lol  😝 

I think my advice to people would be to just lock at first to protect yourself . Then when it’s time to close, if they’ve dropped, get a LE from someone else...

 
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/09/wells-fargo-mortgages-bank-tells-new-clients-they-need-1-million-to-qualify-for-jumbo-refi.html?__source=sharebar|facebook&par=sharebar&fbclid=IwAR3Z_QQolAmXvHFKynVn08dewCccMQ0nbTHpTN3Va_DDiTc8me8KHvVmTsU

Readers digest version: Wells Fargo now requires $1MM in cash assets to refi a Jumbo loan with them. 

This is more shocking than Chase requirements of 80% LTV and 720 credit scores as Chase has for a long time not really wanted to do mortgages while Wells has for many years been aggressive. 

This may be a result of the sanctions on them from the multiple scandals over theast few years coupled with COVID but it also seems to be a general further shift with banks (specially larger banks) moving to only the most pristine mortgage loans. A kind of attitude of "Well, of you are the best of the best mortgage clients, I guess we will do the loan for you and charge you more for the hassle of your business". 

This also seems to be in line with the usual approach of jumbo for banks where they see that as a way to gain your business in wealth management and other areas and will use the jumbo as a loss leader. 
On the flip side, WF dropped the $250k in assets for current customers on jumbo refis. If you have a million in assets at WF, you can get a 3% loan. Not bad.

 
On the flip side, WF dropped the $250k in assets for current customers on jumbo refis. If you have a million in assets at WF, you can get a 3% loan. Not bad.
The new head of WF mortgage is a big supporter of the wholesale channel. I expect big changes to WF mortgage lending including a return to wholesale. 

 
Was going with a local loan guy and then my realtor gave the name of someone at Quicken Loans to at least get another opinion. Spent a lot of time negotiating with them. No cash out but reduced my 30 year loan at 3.875% (with 22 years left) to a 15 year loan at 2.5%. They paid everything in closing costs (only expenses rolled into loan were reestablishing escrow balance). Paying about $300 more per month, but loan done 7 years earlier. They were super easy and everything proceeded very smoothly. Given what I’ve heard about them, I was surprised I got the best rate from them and it was very smooth. You definitely have to talk to someone with some authority (the rate I was given was much different than going through the online system). I would definitely recommend at least giving them a call. When I went to my current bank (Wells) and told them the deal and see if there was anythIng they could do, they basically said that was an awesome deal and I should take it (that was even when Quicken was at a a quarter point higher rate).
 

Edit: This was last month so don’t know how rates have changed.

 
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Was going with a local loan guy and then my realtor gave the name of someone at Quicken Loans to at least get another opinion. Spent a lot of time negotiating with them. No cash out but reduced my 30 year loan at 3.875% (with 22 years left) to a 15 year loan at 2.5%. They paid everything in closing costs (only expenses rolled into loan were reestablishing escrow balance). Paying about $300 more per month, but loan done 7 years earlier. They were super easy and everything proceeded very smoothly. Given what I’ve heard about them, I was surprised I got the best rate from them and it was very smooth. You definitely have to talk to someone with some authority (the rate I was given was much different than going through the online system). I would definitely recommend at least giving them a call. When I went to my current bank (Wells) and told them the deal and see if there was anythIng they could do, they basically said that was an awesome deal and I should take it (that was even when Quicken was at a a quarter point higher rate).
 

Edit: This was last month so don’t know how rates have changed.
I also got a 2.5 on a 15 from Quicken through a local broker. I did a cash out though and didn't get a deal on fees like you did. 

 
I am shopping for a mortgage now.

I am talking to a guy at Rocket Mortgage (owned by Quicken).  He is offering 2.375% and no points for a 15 year fixed or 2.25% with 7/8th of a point.  When you first put in the application, it has approximately 2.625% with no points.  So you definately need to talk to someone to get the best rates.

I just contacted a person at Go Mortgage.  They are quoting 2.125% with no points for a 15 year fixed.  They also have 2.0%.  Points will depend on the market in the morning.

 
I recently learned about "pledged asset mortgages" in which one secures a loan based on held investments. I'm looking to pay off a rental property so that I am not stuck with the mortgage holder's insurance requirements (i.e. they make me buy flood insurance at a ridiculous rate even though, in my opinion, the house doesn't need flood insurance). So if I pay off the mortgage using a pledged asset mortgage, I should be able to cancel the flood insurance and pay off the loan against my investments instead of the property. Full disclosure, I am only talking about a loan of 45K and I have about ten times that amount in investments, so its not like I'm putting my portfolio at risk.

Anyway, I'm posting because I have never heard of this borrowing option and am curious if anyone has experience in pledged asset mortgages or lines. Also, I only see folks like Schwab, JP Morgan or Morgan Stanley offering them but I do not hold accounts with any of them. Not sure the best way to proceed if such a line does make sense. Do I need to move investments over to them or will they play nicely with Vanguard? Thanks to anyone who can shed some light on this for me.

 
Maybe someone in the know could answer this.

One of my rental condos is worth about 70k.  What sort of rate could I get right now with a cash out refi for 15 or 30 year?  

 
Sadly, I’m seeing plenty of posts recently that mention Quicken Loans and Rocket Mortgage. They must not have read @Chadstroma best practices posts. Not criticizing, because people can do whatever they want. Just know you’re likely leaving money on the table. 

 
Sadly, I’m seeing plenty of posts recently that mention Quicken Loans and Rocket Mortgage. They must not have read @Chadstroma best practices posts. Not criticizing, because people can do whatever they want. Just know you’re likely leaving money on the table. 
I'm new to this thread. Any chance you could link to that post? Hard to skim 99 pages.

 
I recently learned about "pledged asset mortgages" in which one secures a loan based on held investments. I'm looking to pay off a rental property so that I am not stuck with the mortgage holder's insurance requirements (i.e. they make me buy flood insurance at a ridiculous rate even though, in my opinion, the house doesn't need flood insurance). So if I pay off the mortgage using a pledged asset mortgage, I should be able to cancel the flood insurance and pay off the loan against my investments instead of the property. Full disclosure, I am only talking about a loan of 45K and I have about ten times that amount in investments, so its not like I'm putting my portfolio at risk.

Anyway, I'm posting because I have never heard of this borrowing option and am curious if anyone has experience in pledged asset mortgages or lines. Also, I only see folks like Schwab, JP Morgan or Morgan Stanley offering them but I do not hold accounts with any of them. Not sure the best way to proceed if such a line does make sense. Do I need to move investments over to them or will they play nicely with Vanguard? Thanks to anyone who can shed some light on this for me.
I'd be surprised if you can get one of these without holding the assets at that firm. I generally like these products and they usually have great rates, but don't have any personal experience.

 
I'm new to this thread. Any chance you could link to that post? Hard to skim 99 pages.


I thought I would repost the "manifesto" as it has been a while and give some extra thoughts on the current state of affairs with lending: 

VIRUS CRISIS NOTE: Lending is tightening (meaning loans are getting harder to qualify for). It is not a lender thing but a secondary market issue. All lenders are impacted- some more than others and some are reacting quicker or 'stronger' than others but it is only a matter of time until all lenders react the same unless something changes with how the secondary market operates. 680 is heading towards being the new "low score" for any loan. Non-QM (loans that do not fit the conventional or government backed loan buckets) are pretty much gone. Jumbo loans are nearly gone. Government backed loans are increasingly getting much harder to get with higher credit score requirements, higher reserve requirements, lower debt to income requirements, etc. Conventional are under a bit of extra pressure as well but not on the same level. 

The loan process is haphazard right now. There are the difficulties directly resulting from the crisis like verifying employment, getting insurance docs, title work, appraisals etc. The lenders are working from home as well. Productivity is way down and loan turn times are up. Some lenders have extremely long minimum lock periods (I have seen as high as 180 day locks), many will not lock until the loan is 'clear to close' meaning done. There are a lot of reasons to all of that. Lenders have killed programs or adding requirements with no notice even with loans locked or cleared to close (those are extreme cases as most honor the locked loans etc). 

Interest rates are low. Comparatively speaking over the last few years VERY low. We had a real refinance boom about a month ago where rate were lower by about 25-75 bps. I am expecting rates to be relatively around where they are now with small hills and valleys as the Fed buys up MBS to keep them low and keep the mortgage liquid. I also do expect rates to go lower once the crisis is over and things settle. That being said, there is still significant potential for further disruption as the entire industry is under stress right now due to how the secondary markets work. Until that changes it could have dramatic impact and since there is no road map on anything like this happening before there is no way to really forecast what will happen with confidence. If you are in the market to refinance- I would say pick your rate that works for you and have that be a target to act. Don't get too greedy. You can't go broke from taking profit and it is extremely hard (impossible really) to call the bottom of any market whether you are talking stocks or mortgage rates. 

One major thing. The deferment on payments is not free. The months skipped will be due at the end of the deferment unless they modify the loan to put on the back end or otherwise change the terms. This will also impact your ability to refi or get a new mortgage. Keep making your mortgage payment unless you really have no other options. 

Here is a few tips for you guys when it comes to mortgages. (ok, more than a few)

#1: The difference between retail and wholesale. Retail is your banks, credit unions and direct lenders (some big direct lenders would be Quicken, Guaranteed Rate, Fairway, etc). Wholesale is your mortgage broker. I shouldn't have to tell you which is going to end up giving better rates and cost on average. 

#2: The bigger the Bank the more they usually suck. UNLESS you are your typical FBG rolling in cash. If you are, then the big and regional banks that have wealth management departments will be very aggressive in offering jumbo loans. They basically use it as a loss leader. They will give you a great deal and then get you into their wealth management where they make all their money off of you. When it comes to mortgages, a jumbo is pretty much the only time you want to talk to a bank. Otherwise, avoid banks though sometimes your smaller banks will have a pretty good deal.  

#3: If you see them advertising on TV, I promise you, they suck. Quicken spends ridiculous amounts of money on advertising. Why? Because the people who don't know better who have done loans with them before and almost always got bent over are paying for this marketing machine. Plus, they are pretty much the slimiest lender out there. Over and over and over again hearing clients tell me "they said X to me" and in reality it is "Y". They also typically will start off with what seems like a great rate and then charge 3 points in origination charges. DO NOT go to Quicken (aka Rocket Mortgage) or one of the slim ball VA lenders like Veterans United or New Day. 

#4: I love credit unions. Huge fan of them. I belong to two of them. CU's are usually your best bet for checking, savings, car loans, personal loans, equity loans or lines, etc. However, one area that they are not usually your best bet is mortgages. The reason is mostly about scale. There are some large CU's but most are still relatively small. They do not do enough volume to be efficient and the large loan amounts take a big chunk of their reserves. Go ahead and check with your CU, they can offer some good deals, I have seen it and they will still tend to beat banks and direct lenders but not usually the best bet. 

#5: Rate is not the end all be all of doing a loan. You have the rate which of course is important but there are also fees and origination charges. A typical game that is played is showing a great rate but then when you compare to another lender you see that you are really PAYING for that great rate. Often times as a broker, I am able to match the rate and give a credit versus the origination points they are charging. Be mindful of that. 

#6: Use the Loan Estimate! Wherever you go, when you get the Loan Estimate, shop it to other lenders. You can just send it to the lender and let them come back with their offer or you can put more work in it and just shop and compare rates. What happens if you do? Worst case, you get the peace of mind that you are getting a good deal. Best case, you save yourself thousands of dollars!

#7: Your current lender is not going to make it easier than going to another lender. They will need to get all new docs or if it a streamline another lender can do a streamline as well. 

#8: Unless you hate yourself and want to throw your phone away forever do not go to a website that 'shops' loans. First of all, they don't really. All they are doing is selling the leads to lenders. Second, you will get bombarded by phone calls and wish you never even heard of Lending Tree or whatever else. 

#9: Always shop lenders. Mortgage brokers do the shopping for you accessing multiple lenders and getting wholesale pricing. 

#10: Don't make assumptions about what you can or can not do with a refinance. Talk to someone who actually knows. They can go over your options after figuring out your situation and your goals. I have seen some bad thinking in here that is costing people significant money. 

#11: The better your credit score the better your rate. You are going to top out around the 740-750 area. So, don't worry about getting an 800 credit score. 

#12: If you have more debt other than the mortgage/equity loan or line then you might be better off refinancing all the debt into the home. 

#13: DO NOT listen to Dave Ramsey when it comes to mortgages. He is a dolt when it comes to mortgages, gives horrible advice and then sends his followers to Churchill mortgage because he gets paid advertising from them. It disgusts me. People trust him and he sends them to a crappy retail lender because he gets a big check from them on top of giving really HORRIBLE advice that ends up costing people tons. Just ignore him when it comes to mortgage advice. 

#14: If you are getting a mortgage, don't do anything stupid like deposit a bunch of cash into your account or buy a new car or change jobs. Anything to do with your job, credit and income can cause problems for the loan. Yes, I don't care if you are doing the same job for more money- I can't close your loan on time now. (real life situation, I was able to save the loan but this ding dong couldn't get through his head that most lenders would have killed the deal and it was all our fault somehow that we couldn't close on time). 

#15: Realize that the vast majority of down payment assistance programs are pushed by lenders who do them and realtors who want you to buy a home with them as free money is NOT. Why do they pitch it like that? Well, why wouldn't you use a lender or realtor who is offering you free money?! This is the way that most of them work... they are set up to give money in a form of a forgivable loan or silent second or another such form. You must keep the loan for an extended period of time 5-7 years is most common. Once you do (meaning you can not sell or refinance that loan) then you are free! Here is the thing... that 3-3.5% of the purchase price that they gave you jacked up your rate. I have calculated the differences- not from different lenders but from lenders that I know using a program, the rate you would get with them without the DPA and the rate you get with it... and let's say you got $10K from them... that $10K ends up costing you $30-40K over the period that you did PLUS potentially an opportunity cost of refinancing as I have done for all my clients who listened to me last year and now that rates have dropped are realizing large savings. There are true grants out there (where there is no ties to the money) but most of these also have a higher rate. I have access to some of these programs but only have done one in the last few years and that was after being sure to explain everything in detail and the real cost to the client (side not, the plan was to refi them later which we plan on doing in a couple of months). 

#16: If you are veteran, first responder, medical profession- the great sounding program (Homes for Heroes is the largest one) where you get money back isn't as great as it sounds. I promise you. The realtor part of it is actually a good deal for you but the lender side where they typically pay for your appraisal (around $400-600) is likely costing you a ton of money in the rate and cost of the loan. These are usually retail lenders who have lot's of extra cash (there is a reason why they have to charge higher rates and fees/origination) that pay into these programs, which are relatively expensive (for a lender about $1800 a year for Homes for Heroes just to be part of their program and that is it). You can still shop the lender. DO SO!

#17: First time home buyer programs are usually marketing schemes. There are some benefits offered if you are doing a conventional loan which anyone can have access to. Other things are usually the DPA programs (see #15)  and should be avoided. Your third cousins best friend's dog's breeders brother who got $10K free money to buy a home is more times than not money that cost them. 

#18: Most loans over 80% loan to value that doesn't have mortgage insurance is costing you in a higher rate. If you are doing conventional loan, you can get rid of the MI later. If it is baked into the rate it is there for life of the loan. 

#19: FOR THE LOVE OF GOD AND ALL THAT IS HOLY if you are building a home PLEASE understand that the builders preferred lender that they are going to give you $10K in free upgrades for using them is going to cost you much more money than the $10K they are 'giving' you. Here is how this scheme works. The free upgrades actually are going to cost them maybe $2K if that to do. In return for you using their preferred lender and getting absolutely bent over they are going to get a nice big fat check worth alot more money. The builder and the lender will laugh at you sitting in the model house counting your money you just forked over as they watch you move in. 

#20: A realtors 'preferred lender' can be good or can be bad. There is no way to tell. Here is how it works in the industry. Retail lenders who tend to charge more have bigger budgets to spend on marketing. They will 'partner' with realtors and pay for the realtors marketing (also sponsor things like their meetings, or holiday party, or conferences or whatever else) and in return the realtor makes them their 'preferred lender' so the realtor will refer you to them when you are not already using a lender. Now, you can also have 'preferred lenders' that don't do that stuff and the realtor has found them to be a good lender. (side note here, in the average realtors eyes, a good realtor is one that closes deals and does it on time and not so much about rate and cost) For example, I am several realtors 'preferred lender' but do not spend money on them and it is really based on them knowing I can get more loans approved, close on time and give their clients great deals. Overall, NEVER get loan advice from a realtor unless they are the rare ones that are licensed for lending and actually know what they are talking about (that is significantly less than 1% of them)

#21: You don't need 20% down. Don't keep waiting to buy when you are spending money away on rent. Every month you pay someone else's mortgage (paying rent) is money you will never see a dime of again. As an owner you are building wealth. Think of it this way... landlords are landlords for a reason. They are not losing money and on top of it are gaining equity. For most Americans, their 'wealth' is almost exclusively in their homes. Not retirement accounts or stocks etc but built up equity from paying down principle and appreciation of their homes which is historically pretty consistently 5% over periods of time (including booms and crashes). 

#22: You don't need perfect credit to get a mortgage. You can do a FHA loan with a minimum credit score of 580 with as little as 3.5% down of the purchase price. 

#23: When picking a good realtor find out these things about them: A) Do they do this as a full time job or is it a side gig or something they do when they are bored etc. You want a full time realtor for the experience and focus. Trust me. The exception on this would be a semi-retired realtor but honestly, they are usually ones to pass on as well. You want someone who knows the market, is sharp on negotiation and has good contacts. B) How long have they been doing the job. Experience counts for sure. But I rather go with a rookie doing it full time than someone been doing it 10 years as a part time gig. C) What is their availability. You want someone that will be available on your time tables and not theirs. D) How many houses have they sold or closed on? It will give you an idea about how productive they are. But keep in mind, someone who isn't as productive might be hungrier and more flexible to you versus someone who is doing tons of volume. 

#24: Always get an inspection done from a good inspector. Do not skimp here. A good inspector will give you very important info on the home even if there is nothing to be concerned over and potentially catch a very big problem. Keep in mind even the best inspectors will not be able to find out anything and everything wrong with a house. Find out of they do mold and radon testing or not and if it is extra if they do. I would go ahead and do it. Keep this in mind, this is usually the largest financial transaction of your life so far. Do you want to be penny wise and dollar foolish on it?

#25: If you are military or a vet. Run away from supposedly veterans lenders like Veterans United and New Day (and more but those are two big ones) THEY SUCK. Even good places like USDAA (who does insurance well), Navy Fed, may do a lot of good for vets in other areas but are not the best in mortgages. 

#26: As I will get to soon... brokers are better. This is true for insurance too. I see insurance quotes often and I personally did my own shopping where I shopped 10 carriers plus one insurance broker. The broker easily won out. Plus, the big carriers suck if you end up with a claim. I have a whole personal story about Allstate sucking big hairy monkey balls. On top of it all an agent at a large carrier has NO sway on anything on a claim. A broker actually does (as counter intuitive as that seems) because they can tell the insurer that if they don't do something right that he will not send that insurance company any more business. The captive agent has no choice. 

#27: If you are in a rural area, check out a USDA loan. You can finance up to 100% but keep in mind, you actually might end up better served doing a FHA loan depending on specifics. 

#28: Brokers are better. They weren't always... they use to be a pack of scumbags and slimballs who would screw over their own mothers for an extra 20 spot. Before 2008 I had plenty of chances to be a broker and would not even though I would have made 3 or 4 times more than I was making because again the vast majority were nastier than moldy dog poo with worms in it. That being said, even back then you could get a better deal from a broker IF you knew what you were doing and could protect yourself. Otherwise, you could get screwed so badly that it would make going to Quicken seem like a good deal. In fact, I actually used a broker on both of my home purchases even though at both times my wife and I worked at banks. That is right, when bankers want to do their loans- you know who they come to? Brokers. Things have changed and really the consumer advocates are now brokers and the things they use to do before that would screw people over are things that can not be done now. Not only are you going to get a better deal at a broker the vast majority of the time but you are also not going to get screwed over. Plus they have options that banks, credit unions and direct lenders don't have to get you approved if you have a harder to finance situation like a business owner, bad credit, recent major credit event (foreclosure, bankruptcy, etc) etc. Also, brokers can close quicker than other lenders on average. How do you find a broker? Well, you can ask me, I know brokers throughout the country. I have no problem connecting you to one (and if you are wondering, by regulation and the risk of losing my license, I can not get paid for referring you to a broker... it is purely out of help you out) or if you want you can check out www.findamortgagebroker.com oh... and if you are in Illinois, I can help you directly. 

#29: You are not locked in to a lender with a pre-approval. Unscrupulous lenders who tend to overcharge will have a lot of nasty little tricks that they do to keep you stuck with them. Fear is one of the big ones backed with lies. That fear will be to tell you that you can not change lenders once you have an offer accepted from a pre-approval or you can lose your earnest money. FALSE! Or that you will end up not being able to close on time with another lender (a favorite of retail loan officers to say about brokers when broker turn around times are actually quicker than retail). Your Loan Estimate is provided to assist you as the consumer to not only better understand the true costs of the loan but to be able to shop your loan around or the best options for you and then be able to compare them as close to apples to apples as possible. Don't let liars overcharging you win!

Hope this helps guys. I am always willing to help out if you have any questions or want to connect with someone licensed for your state. Just DM me.  
 
Alert! Rates are really good right now. If you have been thinking of refinancing (or buying) but were waiting, I would say pull the trigger. There isn't too much lower for rates to go. The 10 year treasury yield will be moving up and things should get more normalized with the normal coupling of the 10 yr and mortgage rates. I don't think that rates will jump up but I don't see much more room for them to go down. I am not sure there is a point in waiting for anything. 

Get in touch with a true independent broker (if you need help finding one, let me know I can get you in touch with someone) and take a look. 
Do you have any contacts in the Tampa area? Struck out with a couple of locals who don’t know what they’re doing. 

 
From the "manifesto" last posted a couple of pages ago... 

#23: When picking a good realtor find out these things about them: A) Do they do this as a full time job or is it a side gig or something they do when they are bored etc. You want a full time realtor for the experience and focus. Trust me. The exception on this would be a semi-retired realtor but honestly, they are usually ones to pass on as well. You want someone who knows the market, is sharp on negotiation and has good contacts. B) How long have they been doing the job. Experience counts for sure. But I rather go with a rookie doing it full time than someone been doing it 10 years as a part time gig. C) What is their availability. You want someone that will be available on your time tables and not theirs. D) How many houses have they sold or closed on? It will give you an idea about how productive they are. But keep in mind, someone who isn't as productive might be hungrier and more flexible to you versus someone who is doing tons of volume. 

I would add to this their personality and focus. I hate jerks, self absorbed egotists and people who are not genuine and will avoid them. There seems to be a lot of these in that profession for some reason. You want to get an idea of whether they are going to expect to show you 5 houses and have you pick one or are willing to help you search. Now, you don't want to be the dingbat seeing 100 homes either but if you haven't found the right home on the first outing are they going to work for their commission or start pushing you. I wouldn't sign a exclusive contract either. If they are good then they will earn their commission. If they aren't you should be able to move to another that is working for you (but you don't want to drop someone that is putting in hard work for you either.... remember, this is their livelihood... they don't make money until you buy the home. If you change, change for a real good reason but you should be able to change if you feel the need). 
This. My wife is in the field and she knows a lot of fake people. Find someone that cares about your needs and wants to find the house that will be best for you. Use your gut, if it feels off than it is. Good agents are a fantastic resource that will protect and help you through the process tremendously. They will handle the back end, fight for you, and make it seem easy,  but its not.  Sadly, there are a lot of agents that just don't give a hit about their clients and are lazy or have conflicts of interest. Avoid those people and  find someone who cares. Once again, use your bull#### meter, if they feel slimy or fake, avoid avoid avoid.

 
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Ok @Chadstroma, talked to another local (actually about 5 miles up the road) and got this rate:

15-year fixed at 2.5% from 30-year fixed at 4.375%

APR is 2.7% (about $4,400)

No points

Lender is United Wholesale Mortgage

Thoughts?

 
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Sadly, I’m seeing plenty of posts recently that mention Quicken Loans and Rocket Mortgage. They must not have read @Chadstroma best practices posts. Not criticizing, because people can do whatever they want. Just know you’re likely leaving money on the table. 
Funny that's happening, we just did a cash out refinance.  First I called Wells Fargo about our options since that's where the original mortgage is from, was told they're not doing cash out refi's right now.  Couldn't even apply.  Did some online quotes and got the best offer from Quicken.  Sent the loan estimate to a local mortgage broker and he said it looks like a good deal and he wouldn't be able to beat it.  :shrug:   Ended up doing 2.5% on a 15 year fixed.  Everything was quick and painless.  

 
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I had another crazy day in my refi journey. 
 

Around 1 pm I got an email wanting me to sign this same document I didn’t sign last Wednesday. I replied and copied the main lady at the place I’ve been dealing with and  said I refuse to sign this. Then got an email back saying thanks for signing this document, then I guess I snapped and just wrote that I think I’ve made a decision to end my loan application. 

Then she called me but I didn’t answer. Then she texted and said she’s talked to the lender and wants to go over options with me.  I texted back I said I was busy working please just send me your best LE and I will look at it early tomorrow. If you want, I will send it to you and let you tell why your deal is better.

She hasn’t  yet sent anything. I think she knows I’ll walk if it’s not good. I’m trying to play hardball with them. Don’t know how well I’m doing though lol.

Anyway, I got home and there’s a mail from State Farm which says that my policy has been amended and my first mortgage is amended and my second mortgage has been deleted.

Also at some point in the day the lawyer they want to use called and said when can you come on Thursday to close. I told them that I’m having second thoughts. 
 

So yeah, it’s been another eventful day. 

 
Pretty busy so haven't jumped back in a bit. Let me touch on Quicken/Rocket Mortgage (same exact company but they been rebranding towards Rocket. Rebranding because of the horrible reputation they have). 

Over the years I have talked to a lot of people about their dealings with Quicken/Rocket. I haven't kept count but the number is easily triple digits. Out of all of those only about 3 closed loans with them that were what they said it would be and were very good deals. It isn't impossible but it is rare. 

What normally happens is a whole lot of the dirtiest tricks that can happen. Their initial rates and fees are usually high, usually a rate that is competitive with 2% or more in points. Then if you do talk to someone they are usually brand new loan officers licensed within the last few months that were working as waiters or something before (no offense to waiters they just don't usually know much about lending) and their "training" seems to be how to lie to clients. They really hope to confuse people into thinking they are getting a good deal when they really are not. I sum them up with Lies, more lies and marketing... though marketing could come first. 

They are in the midst of an IPO which in industry circles has been talked about alot. My view on it is that usually an IPO is a good thing for a company but I don't know how more scrutiny and openness will be a good thing for how they do business. I think it will end up biting them in the rear eventually. 

As for using a broker and the broker using Quicken for your loan that is different because the broker is in control of the terms and as long as the broker isn't scum then you should be fine. Personally, I refuse to ever send any loans to them because I will not deal with a company like that or subject my clients to them. 

Another note, I have never talked to a realtor that has any amount of experience that would not urge a client on a listing to not accept an offer with a loan from Quicken/Rocket if there is any other offer on the table. 

I would avoid them. 

 
Maybe someone in the know could answer this.

One of my rental condos is worth about 70k.  What sort of rate could I get right now with a cash out refi for 15 or 30 year?  
Nothing pretty. In the 5's. Prob not above 75% Loan to Value. Might be better off finding a credit union that will do an equity for you. Rates may be comparable but would save on closing costs. 

 
Do you have any contacts in the Tampa area? Struck out with a couple of locals who don’t know what they’re doing. 
I can assist in FL through our brokerage acting as the Loan Officer Assistant to one of the owners of my brokerage who is licensed there. 

 
Ok @Chadstroma, talked to another local (actually about 5 miles up the road) and got this rate:

15-year fixed at 2.5% from 30-year fixed at 4.375%

APR is 2.7% (about $4,400)

No points

Lender is United Wholesale Mortgage

Thoughts?
In general rates are hard because so many factors change the rates but I will say sounds good from what you shared amd United Wholesale Mortgage is my favorite lender. They are fast and consistently do a good job. 

 
I had another crazy day in my refi journey. 
 

Around 1 pm I got an email wanting me to sign this same document I didn’t sign last Wednesday. I replied and copied the main lady at the place I’ve been dealing with and  said I refuse to sign this. Then got an email back saying thanks for signing this document, then I guess I snapped and just wrote that I think I’ve made a decision to end my loan application. 

Then she called me but I didn’t answer. Then she texted and said she’s talked to the lender and wants to go over options with me.  I texted back I said I was busy working please just send me your best LE and I will look at it early tomorrow. If you want, I will send it to you and let you tell why your deal is better.

She hasn’t  yet sent anything. I think she knows I’ll walk if it’s not good. I’m trying to play hardball with them. Don’t know how well I’m doing though lol.

Anyway, I got home and there’s a mail from State Farm which says that my policy has been amended and my first mortgage is amended and my second mortgage has been deleted.

Also at some point in the day the lawyer they want to use called and said when can you come on Thursday to close. I told them that I’m having second thoughts. 
 

So yeah, it’s been another eventful day. 
On a refi you have 3 days even after closing to still back out. The only cost usually be appraisal (sometimes credit report if they charged ahead). 

 
Well, I didn’t get any new offer in writing to look at from my lender. Took some time to write them a Dear John letter outlining everything I’ve been thinking about for almost a week now. Felt good to hit send!

 
If we're looking at purchasing at a new construction do we need a real estate agent?
More important than ever IMO. Like a lot of professions I am sure there are good ones out there, but most builders in my experience will try to bend over their customers every way they can especially in the fine print. For example, I’ve seen people get screwed because the builder didn’t disclose to buyer’s about non-refundable deposits, offering incentives to lock you into using their lenders and screwing you with bad loan terms, sticking buyers with ridiculous fees at closings. Builders usually price in the cost of a buyers agent in when selling so why not have someone on your side in any negotiations? they love when people don’t use an agent because they pocket that 3% as extra profit.

 
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More important than ever IMO. Like a lot of professions I am sure there are good ones out there, but most builders in my experience will try to bend over their customers every way they can especially in the fine print. For example, I’ve seen people get screwed because the builder didn’t disclose to buyer’s about non-refundable deposits, offering incentives to lock you into using their lenders and screwing you with bad loan terms, sticking buyers with ridiculous fees at closings. Builders usually price in the cost of a buyers agent in when selling so why not have someone on your side in any negotiations? they love when people don’t use an agent because they pocket that 3% as extra profit.
We just bought ~6 weeks ago our first home, and it is a new construction bought from the builder. We had a real estate agent and she was fantastic. Was great to have someone knowledgeable to gameplan with, to tell us "yes this is standard, no this is not", to flag items that were important to know (like builder's deposit), and to help us decide what else to ask them for (we were very aggressive in blue taping due to market conditions and stuff that our agent had what I think was good insight) like getting window treatment on all windows when they by default had them on just the kitchen and master bedroom.

Would 100% use agent again.

 
If we're looking at purchasing at a new construction do we need a real estate agent?
There are way more issue with a new construction home than a resale almost every time. If you don't have someone advocating for your side of the deal, you can get really screwed if something goes wrong.   The agent for the builder will swear that this won't happen, but it's a lie.

 
There are way more issue with a new construction home than a resale almost every time. If you don't have someone advocating for your side of the deal, you can get really screwed if something goes wrong.   The agent for the builder will swear that this won't happen, but it's a lie.
Would agree, the old adage that “they don’t make them like they used to” is unfortunately very true with a lot of new builds.

One other thing to watch out for with builders is you often have to have an agent ahead of time before you start working with the builder. Even if you just go tour some places and they take your info, they may have a clause in the fine print that you won’t use a buyers agent or if you do, they won’t compensate the buyers agent and you will have to pay them out of your own pocket.

 
Charlie Harper said:
If we're looking at purchasing at a new construction do we need a real estate agent?
No, you don't and they don't want one (seller pays for it). I don't see a need for one to represent you on it really. We almost did one after looking at buying for a while and they wanted me to kick my realtor to the curb. I am loyal kind of guy so I told them either she was part of the deal and got her commission or I wouldn't be buying. It wasn't so much for her representing us as it was she had invested her time in our search smd deserved the payoff.

However, new construction is a whole set of different pitfalls. 

Do tons of research on the builder. Best is try to talk to people who used the builder themselves. That killed it for us. 

Do your research on the options and the costs. They love to jack up the costs on any changes/options.

Find out the process and what they allow. Another big reason we exited out of our down payment was I found out they would not allow me near the property at any time other than the pre and final walk throughs. They only allowed those on the title in. No spouse or other family members let alone an independent inspection. Nope. Not going to happen. 

Finally, beware of the builders "preferred lender" and the carrot of $X amount for "free upgrades". The lender usually soaks you and they are usually "preferred" because of the financial arrangement between builder and lender. The free upfrades usually cost them a fraction of the "credit" (see above). 

Most people I talked to wish they didn't buy new construction. That being said, I still want to do a new construction in the future but as a custom build that I am in full control of.

I forgot to add. If you don't have a realtor make sure you get a good lawyer and don't skimp on leaning on him. 

In general, this is the largest financial transaction of your life for most people other than buying other homes later. Get a team together that has your back and walks you through. When spending hundreds of thousands, don't get cute with a few hundred bucks (realtor, inspector, lawyer etc). Protect you and your investment.

 
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Buckna said:
More important than ever IMO. Like a lot of professions I am sure there are good ones out there, but most builders in my experience will try to bend over their customers every way they can especially in the fine print. For example, I’ve seen people get screwed because the builder didn’t disclose to buyer’s about non-refundable deposits, offering incentives to lock you into using their lenders and screwing you with bad loan terms, sticking buyers with ridiculous fees at closings. Builders usually price in the cost of a buyers agent in when selling so why not have someone on your side in any negotiations? they love when people don’t use an agent because they pocket that 3% as extra profit.
Good points. If you are green then having a realtor in your corner will be helpful for sure. The seller pays but they will also try to take that out on you in sone fasion in terms of the deal. 

 
thecatch said:
I ended up with Quicken going through a broker for my refinance and the process could not have been smoother. :shrug:
You are "safe" from Quicken when using a broker as they don't control anything other than the underwriting. The broker "protects" you from their retail dirty tricks.

 
Osaurus said:
Ok @Chadstroma, talked to another local (actually about 5 miles up the road) and got this rate:

15-year fixed at 2.5% from 30-year fixed at 4.375%

APR is 2.7% (about $4,400)

No points

Lender is United Wholesale Mortgage

Thoughts?
It's a decent rate, not a bad deal, you could probably do better,  but if you are happy and like who you are dealing with it's solid.

 
Finally have close date next Wed for refi. 30@3.25% no points, with our current mortgage co. 33% LTV. About 3.5 months to close. Although rates at record low, refi rates haven’t dropped much more over past several months. Honoring the 60 day lock. Appraisal waived.

 
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Well I officially got out of my refi yesterday. It wasn’t easy. All it  took was an email mentioning the Supreme Court and bullet points on why I wasn’t happy with their deal. 

Then I get an email back saying I was working until 9:00 pm last night and I couldn’t send you anything in writing and you could have had a 2.75. Yeah riiiiiight...

I am glad that’s over with. I found someone really good I think and this will go pretty fast I hope. 

 
My experience with Quicken/Rocket.

My original loan was with Quicken/Rocket, purchased the home in 2017.  Admittedly didn't shop enough, but in talking to others who purchased homes around the same time, the numbers were competitive.

January 2020 - Contacted by a quicken rep telling me there was opportunity to save in a re-fi via a voicemail.  At the time, I was working 7 days, 12 hours, as a project I was on was completely dominating my time.  Due to that, I put the guy on the back burner, but he called six times in a two week span, leaving voicemails.  I finally called him back, explaining that I was extraordinarily busy, but to go ahead and throw something together.  We went back and forth a few times during that week via text, and then .... nothing.  He just stops contacting me.

March 2020 - A friend tells me rates have cratered, he just refi'd for 3.0% on a 30 yr, and gives me his guys info (MiMutual).  I drag my feet a bit, email the guy a few days later, rates had started to climb again.  Guy tells me he will contact me when they hit my target again (3.125 or lower)

May 2020 - MiMutual guy contacts me, tells me rates are at 3.125.  I tell him send an estimate.  Once I have the estimate, I check with a couple other lenders, including Quicken.  Quicken never actually emails or contacts me with their offer, I just happen to notice that there is a refinance available at their website when I log in to pay my mortgage.  Regardless, MiMutual has the best offer, so I proceed with them.

Quicken contacts me a week after I've told MiMutual to proceed, and tells me the offer they sent last week wasn't the best they could do, and want to send another offer.  I explain that I was never actually sent the previous offer, had to find it myself.  They are apologetic, telling me the woman was a new employee and she made a mistake, and ask to send an updated and better offer, promising to have it to me within an hour.  I say go ahead, but time is getting short.  The new offer doesn't come until the next day, and is still worse then MiMutual.

Quicken contacts me again on a Friday, my closing with MiMutual is scheduled for the following Tuesday.  This new Quicken contact is from "customer retention", so I explain the disappointing dealings I've had with them so far, listing all 3 occasions this year that they have dropped the ball.   She apologizes over and over, and wants to send one more offer.  I explain that at this point, it would have to absolutely blow me away financially, because now I would have to back out of a scheduled closing, and am at this point pretty well disgusted with Quicken.  She promises to have an offer to me by the end of the day that Friday.  Her next contact is Saturday evening, requesting more information.  At this point, I should have just told them to piss off, but I provide the info, just on the chance that they can actually save me something.  Nothing from her again until 6:30pm on Monday, the day before my closing with the other company.  I actually ignored the call, so she texts me, giving me her directors number, and telling me that I really want to contact him, they have something to offer that will be worth my time.

Curiosity wins out, I call the director.  He spends a few minutes reminding me that Quicken has been good for me until these recent disappointments, reminds me how convenient their technology makes things, etc, etc, etc.  He finally makes the final and best offer.  Matches MiMutual as far as rate, $1800 more in closing costs.  I literally laughed at the guy, asked him what in the hell, after all the headache they have caused me, makes him think I would pay $1800 above what my current best ReFi offer to stay with Quicken?  He tells me "Well, I am not familiar with MiMutual, but they will likely sell your loan, and the new servicer could have sneaky fee's, and won't have our tech".  I tell him that he may be the boldest individual I had spoken to in recent memory, wish him a fine evening, and tell him I will be closing the next day with MiMutual.

F*^& Quicken Loans.  

 
I locked in my rate Monday.  2.125% with a 0.375 credit (negative points) on a 15 year fixed mortgage, no cash out.  She also offered 2.0% with 0.168 points.  

I was not feeling well last weekend and had nothing better to do than shop mortgage rates.  I am pretty happy with this.

Also, I told the mortgage agent that their closing costs looked high.  She said she would look into a lender credit and then was able to give me her best rates.  I think you need to ask for their best rates or you won't get them.

 
I locked in my rate Monday.  2.125% with a 0.375 credit (negative points) on a 15 year fixed mortgage, no cash out.  She also offered 2.0% with 0.168 points.  

I was not feeling well last weekend and had nothing better to do than shop mortgage rates.  I am pretty happy with this.

Also, I told the mortgage agent that their closing costs looked high.  She said she would look into a lender credit and then was able to give me her best rates.  I think you need to ask for their best rates or you won't get them.
Whoa

 
I’m still shopping around. Mr. Cooper (who bought my mortgage a while back) told me they can give me an awesome rate of 3.6% to refi and 3.8 APR. Whatever, losers. 

 
Mene said:
 "Well, I am not familiar with MiMutual, but they will likely sell your loan, and the new servicer could have sneaky fee's, and won't have our tech".  I tell him that he may be the boldest individual I had spoken to in recent memory, wish him a fine evening, and tell him I will be closing the next day with MiMutual.

F*^& Quicken Loans.  
That is the type of story I hear the majority of the time. That kind of nonsense and them foinv the "sneaky fees" which is exactly what they are known for in the industry. 

I never heard of MiMutual but I would put my money on them over Quicken every day of the week. 

I can't express to you guys how many stories I have heard from people who dealt with Quicken that go like this or worse. The ones that were happy with Quicken when I dig into it more usually got screwed and didn't know it.

 
Marvelous said:
I locked in my rate Monday.  2.125% with a 0.375 credit (negative points) on a 15 year fixed mortgage, no cash out.  She also offered 2.0% with 0.168 points.  

I was not feeling well last weekend and had nothing better to do than shop mortgage rates.  I am pretty happy with this.

Also, I told the mortgage agent that their closing costs looked high.  She said she would look into a lender credit and then was able to give me her best rates.  I think you need to ask for their best rates or you won't get them.
Rates change daily as a broker I can quote one lender and then the next day their rates go up and someone else's went down. Also, as a broker it is a balancing act. I have about 50 lenders I have access to. Often times the "best rate" is with a horrible lender (meaning they take forever, condition the loan to death, have tons of overlays and drop the ball often). The best rate doesn't mean anything if I can't close the loan and it is a horrible experience of waiting... documents... waiting... more documents... more waiting... etc. As the broker, I have to use my industry knowledge to shield my clients from that. On top of that rates are tough in general because there are a ridiculous amount of factors that impact what rate someone can get. One rate may be great for one person and the next it would be a horrible rate. 

 
Osaurus said:
I’m still shopping around. Mr. Cooper (who bought my mortgage a while back) told me they can give me an awesome rate of 3.6% to refi and 3.8 APR. Whatever, losers. 
Mr. Cooper is the ghost of WaMu that came back and bought Nationstar. Unfortunately they are nothing like WaMu and is one of the lenders I refuse to send loans to because they are a hot mess.

 
I had a good experience with Mr. Cooper.
Their retail may be better than their wholesale. That does happen. Their retail isn't really an industry force so I haven't heard much either way there. Their wholesale is a trash truck on fire heading towards a train full of poo.

I actually wish they were better. I spent almost 10 years working for WaMu and loved it. I kind of have a soft spot for them but they just suck on wholesale for sure. 

 
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That is the type of story I hear the majority of the time. That kind of nonsense and them foinv the "sneaky fees" which is exactly what they are known for in the industry. 

I never heard of MiMutual but I would put my money on them over Quicken every day of the week. 

I can't express to you guys how many stories I have heard from people who dealt with Quicken that go like this or worse. The ones that were happy with Quicken when I dig into it more usually got screwed and didn't know it.
Similar here. Quicken is the pits. Here in California, Quicken has been known to be ignorant or ignore many state laws because their representatives are from out of state. That's not how things works when the property in question is in state. Lots of headaches.

 
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We just refinanced 5-6 months ago, but rates look like they've moved down enough for us to take another look at this.  I don't really want to go through the process again, but it may be the way to go.

 

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