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aerolaw

AFFL: FINANCIAL ISSUES AND CONCERNS

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All prize winners from one of the better known high stakes contests, the AFFL, have been notified that AFFL does not have the ability to pay prize money earned this past season. Basically they say they are trying to get an infusion of venture capital to stay afloat.

Though i am owed $800, i am concerned that this type of action will cause serious problems for the industry, as we are certain to now undergo law enforcement scrutiny, etc. There will surely be complaints lodged with law enforcement over this, and i could see wire fraud, mail fraud, RICO charges possibly evolving, not to mention carrying on gambling over state lines.

We should all keep our eye on this situation.

Edited to accurately portray what I understand the situation to be. They are not reneging. They are delaying. Hoping for the best here for them.

J

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Hey Aerolaw...I'm not suggesting it's untrue (far from it) but given the severity of the accusation and the popularity of our forums; could you kindly post a link that corroborates this news? I clicked through to AFFL.com and they don't appear to have any confirmation of this and are advertising entry fees and signups for March for the 2008 season.

Thanks,

Jason

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Jason,

I can confirm that Aerolaw is correct that we have delayed prize payouts until venture capital is achieved.

We are working with several companies right now, and I believe that we will have complete resolution by the end of the February.

As I stated in the email to all of the prize winners, I am very sorry that we are in this situation, and we are working very hard to rectify it.

I in NO way intend to defraud anyone. I have no benefit in doing so, as I stand to lose much more then anyone else if I do not payout the prizes.

I have contacted all of the grand prize winners personally. I have also spoke with many other winner's regarding concerns over this issue.

Once we have paid out prizes, in order to ease participant's fears, we are looking at several options in terms of third party holding companies to secure the prize fund for future years.

If any one has any questions regarding the time of the payout, they can contact me at info@affl.com.

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OK...this is obviously real. That said, I don't want this to turn into a prohibitively negative thread. I think it's vitally important that people are aware of this situation and it certainly should play into their decision to participate in 2008 and beyond. That said, I give credit to the AFFL guys coming in and owning up to the situation so let's give them some time to see if they can work this situation out positively.

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Thanks Jason.

The money was spent on operating costs this year.

There are many factors as to why the operating costs were higher then projected and why the revenues were much lower then expected. Unfortunately for our situation is that many of the decisions about what money is to be spent on technology is done based on sign-up projections, before a sign-up is over.

As you can see from this post on our forums (fifth post down in the thread): http://forums.affl.com/tm.asp?m=2012, our payouts were far greater then that of the incoming money. I am not saying that the payout percentage is the reason, but it is definitely a contributor.

I do have an objection to the title of the thread, as we have absolutely no intention of reneging on the prize money. We have just delayed it for a short period.

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Thanks Jason.

The money was spent on operating costs this year.

There are many factors as to why the operating costs were higher then projected and why the revenues were much lower then expected. Unfortunately for our situation is that many of the decisions about what money is to be spent on technology is done based on sign-up projections, before a sign-up is over.

As you can see from this post on our forums (fifth post down in the thread): http://forums.affl.com/tm.asp?m=2012, our payouts were far greater then that of the incoming money. I am not saying that the payout percentage is the reason, but it is definitely a contributor.

I do have an objection to the title of the thread, as we have absolutely no intention of reneging on the prize money. We have just delayed it for a short period.

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Thanks Jason.

The money was spent on operating costs this year.

There are many factors as to why the operating costs were higher then projected and why the revenues were much lower then expected. Unfortunately for our situation is that many of the decisions about what money is to be spent on technology is done based on sign-up projections, before a sign-up is over.

As you can see from this post on our forums (fifth post down in the thread): http://forums.affl.com/tm.asp?m=2012, our payouts were far greater then that of the incoming money. I am not saying that the payout percentage is the reason, but it is definitely a contributor.

I do have an objection to the title of the thread, as we have absolutely no intention of reneging on the prize money. We have just delayed it for a short period.

I can unerstand why you object to the title of the thread, but what i cant understand is...you then ran a midseason contest knowing that you didnt even have the funds to pay the full season contest prizes. When you saw that you didnt have enough entries, you could have either reduced the prize pool or cancelled the contest. People spend a lot of time and effort to do well, then to have this happen to them creates a bad taste, for sure.

I'm glad that you are confident you will get funding....i may not share your optimisim, as why would someone want to invest in a sinking ship? You must already be in a significant hole, as you must owe about 500k in prize money and you say the entry fee monies were used for operating costs. (wonder if any of those operating costs included your salary?) So, my title of the thread was a prediction, not a statement of your intent. In any event, GOOD LUCK! i'd rather have my $800 than be right.

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I do have an objection to the title of the thread, as we have absolutely no intention of reneging on the prize money. We have just delayed it for a short period.

I agree and have changed it. Thank you for being out front here and communicating to people what is happening.J

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I do have an objection to the title of the thread, as we have absolutely no intention of reneging on the prize money. We have just delayed it for a short period.

I agree and have changed it. Thank you for being out front here and communicating to people what is happening.J
:thumbdown: There seems to be more to the story. Like what really happened to all the money?And he knew months ago this was a problem.

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Edited to accurately portray what I understand the situation to be. They are not reneging. They are delaying. Hoping for the best here for them.J

Thats just wrong.They are not paying. True.They are not paying in accordance to their own guidelines. True.They still hope to pay in the future by getting someone else to foot the bill. True.Until they can fix it, and currently its broken, to call it a delay is a misrepresentation of the truth. The original title was much more accurate.J, don't become to "PC". People come here for some of the best FF info around, including the status of FF organizations - good or bad.

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How typical is it for businesses that offer prizes/prize money to not have the capital to cover the winnings for the reasons given?

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How typical is it for businesses that offer prizes/prize money to not have the capital to cover the winnings for the reasons given?

I am the original poster, and i dont really care what the title of the thread is. Its all semantics. They have reneged up to this point. The fantasy season was over a month or so ago. The guy ran a midseason contest knowing he couldnt even pay the full season contest, and now the midseason players havent been paid either.I fully intend to pay my back taxes, all my judgment creditors, and charged off delinquent credit cards. When i hit the lottery. Not wishing the guy anything bad,and hope he fixes it, but its wrong, just plain wrong, at this point.

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I have yet to take a salary from IFS in 5 years. Most of the money was spent in programmer expenses, contract employee expenses, server costs, search engine optimization, and advertising.

The prizes and decision to upgrade the software was based on the expected growth rate. That growth rate was based on previous years growth rate and the industry growth rate. We were far short of that growth rate this year. I believe that there are several factors in why we had such a low growth rate this year, and I have addressed the ones that I can. Going forward, after we pay the prizes, we will have to use a third party to secure the prize fund in order to regain customer confidence.

Let's try to put this into perspective a little, our prize payout was scheduled for February 4th, and we are hoping to have it resolved by the end of the month. That is a little over a three week delay.

There is no more to the story than that.

Our legacy costs are significant, however, I would not classify us as a sinking ship. If you know how the industry works, most of the money to start a contest is front loaded. We have 1600 paid customers, and 2400 total, we have software that has incredible power in the back-end and is capable of running other contests, as well as a full blown commissioner product.

As for the mid-season, we had to run that contest. At that time we were attempting to get a more traditional business loan, and had full anticipation that we would have it completed prior to the prize payments. As soon as that was no longer an option we started looking into other financing options.

If a delay was not accurate, I would not be posting on this board right now, and you would have no alternative but bankruptcy court. I am fully committed to this company and my customers. I will not let my customers down.

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It is slightly different then hitting the lottery, unless you have received the winning numbers for the lottery ahead of time.

I have software that not many people in the industry have. It is worth a significant amount, and many investors know it.

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I have yet to take a salary from IFS in 5 years. Most of the money was spent in programmer expenses, contract employee expenses, server costs, search engine optimization, and advertising.The prizes and decision to upgrade the software was based on the expected growth rate. That growth rate was based on previous years growth rate and the industry growth rate. We were far short of that growth rate this year. I believe that there are several factors in why we had such a low growth rate this year, and I have addressed the ones that I can. Going forward, after we pay the prizes, we will have to use a third party to secure the prize fund in order to regain customer confidence. Let's try to put this into perspective a little, our prize payout was scheduled for February 4th, and we are hoping to have it resolved by the end of the month. That is a little over a three week delay.There is no more to the story than that. Our legacy costs are significant, however, I would not classify us as a sinking ship. If you know how the industry works, most of the money to start a contest is front loaded. We have 1600 paid customers, and 2400 total, we have software that has incredible power in the back-end and is capable of running other contests, as well as a full blown commissioner product.As for the mid-season, we had to run that contest. At that time we were attempting to get a more traditional business loan, and had full anticipation that we would have it completed prior to the prize payments. As soon as that was no longer an option we started looking into other financing options.If a delay was not accurate, I would not be posting on this board right now, and you would have no alternative but bankruptcy court. I am fully committed to this company and my customers. I will not let my customers down.

ok, im gonna be a "buyer" for now, Neil. I'm probably more patient than the masses actually.no harm in giving the benefit of the doubt for another 3 weeks.However you are wrong, very wrong, about the only alternative for an unpaid winner being bankruptcy court. Here's hoping that you have no federal prosecutors that played and won in your contests, because what they call mail and wire fraud may not comport with your understanding of those words in laymen terms.

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First, good luck to AFFL in rectifying this situation quickly so that all parties can be pleased. Obviously there is going to be an issue with trust moving forward unless customers know for sure that the capital is there (i.e. a significant and trusted investor/owner) to ensure this won't happen next year and beyond.

For those who are, to date, cheated out of their winnings I definately wish luck. AFFL, I presume, is like many other businesses. You have assets and you have debits. Cash flow dictates that, especially for a growing business, you have to put out significant money before you receive customer payments. When you guess wrong, you can go out of business - and those to whom you owe money be they a team owner in a fantasy league or the guy who printed business cards two months ago (when the biz knew they had cash flow issues) may get shafted.

I personally havent ever used AFFL and have no idea if this software and their service is especially good or worth it - but if so, I would think someone with resources (money) would be willing to step in, be a white knight savior for some good terms on the bailout entity's behalf in terms of revenue, ownership and profits moving forward.

Hopefully someone can step in soon and get everyone their money.

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Neil,

While I have no doubt you are a stand up guy and from my email dealings with you, I've always had pleasant conversations with you but I must be honest, I've already written off my measly $250 prize money as an expensive lesson.

What you are describing as the unexpected problems are basic business ownership 101, taught in freshmen year classes. It's really hard to imagine that someone who has run the company 5 years as you say could fall victim to such basic problems.

I do believe you probably have never taken a salary as most businesses like this are more a labor of love, and are unlikely to be money makers in the long run. Not getting to personal but I'm sure Joe and the boys here put in a lot of long time with no compensation dating all the way back to the cheatsheets.com days, who knows what there situation is but I think Joe still sells boats for a living, right Joe? Again, my only point is that running leagues like this are usually just a dream of someday making a living in a job you'd love. I'd be willing to beat Neil that you also have a full time job doing something else as I don't see how someone could survive 5 years without income unless you work elsewhere or having a supporting and loving wife who brings home the bacon. Maybe so, many business prospects can only do it if their spouse makes the beans and affords them the start up time.

I can tell you this from experience, I am a business banker for a fortune 10 bank and I certainly hope and pray that you can pull this off but as a previous posted correctly mentioned, if you can't, filing for bankruptcy is going to be the least of your problems. Personally, I wish you no harm and if you couldn't pay, I'd just walk away and say oh well but again as a previous poster said, if you have a contestant who has the means and wants to press the issue, you would be facing federal charges against you. I pray that doesn't happen but with that many winners and I'm sure the grand prize guys sitting on a 100k or 75k prize delay, you might have some people pretty upset.

The lending environment right now could not possibly be worse for you as you are aware, the banking industry as a whole is in the midst of the largest credit crunch in recent memory if not ever. Applicants with substantial long standing businesses, who have been making money for years, are getting turned down for 25K business lines of credit in some banks. Venture Capitalist are running for cover as they were decimated by losses the past few years with the sub prime debacle and how it's hit the rest of the economy.

Again, I don't mean to sound grim but I hope you have an ace of spades in your pocket.

To be honest, you knew the membership was short and not up to growth estimates PRIOR to the season starting, you had an out at that time to reduce the payouts or offer refunds if people didn't wish to play. To think that holding the money next year if you survive in a third party escrow is pipe dreaming because if they were holding it this year, you would have went out of business during the season when you were unable to pay for the contract help, server upgrades and the other list of expenses you say you underestimated. Where would that money have come from?

Hang in their Neil; I hope it works out for you. I personally think from reading your emails that you might have been in a little over your head.

I hope I am wrong.

Best to you.

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I play fantasy football for fun. There's no prize money in my league - we just split the cost of the league website. This should do nothing to the fantasy football industry. The gambling industry might take a hit, but I don't really care about that.

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I've enjoyed playing in the AFFL the last two years, although I haven't played well enough to win any money (my fault, not theirs).

I hope everything works out so I can continue to compete there in 2008.

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To be honest, you knew the membership was short and not up to growth estimates PRIOR to the season starting, you had an out at that time to reduce the payouts or offer refunds if people didn't wish to play. To think that holding the money next year if you survive in a third party escrow is pipe dreaming because if they were holding it this year, you would have went out of business during the season when you were unable to pay for the contract help, server upgrades and the other list of expenses you say you underestimated. Where would that money have come from?

I have no dog in this fight, but this makes complete sense to me.

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I do believe you probably have never taken a salary as most businesses like this are more a labor of love, and are unlikely to be money makers in the long run. <snip>if you have a contestant who has the means and wants to press the issue, you would be facing federal charges against you.

If both of those are true, I don't understand why anyone would want to run one of these leagues. :wub:

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You shouldn't run a gambling site (that's what this is) unless you can pay out. This is like letting the wrong person hold the purse for the work pool. If you were a local bookie, you'd probably have broken or smashed limbs by now. If you were lucky. I wonder how much is owed to how many people. tens, hundreds of thousands? Millions? Do sites like AFFL and others pay taxes or do they keep income and payouts under the table? Judging by those posting here, the big payouts must have been paid out and only smaller ones remain. Or those waiting for big payouts are keeping their lips zipped lest the feds swoop in and confiscate everything.

It's not even as if you have to produce an actual product and mail it somewhere or something. Or have a store or rent to pay for. Or overhead that you purchase at wholesale cost then turn for a profit. You have advertising everywhere. How could you have so much trouble where dozens of other sites like yours do not?

If this is not resolved FAST, I could see lawmakers and law enforcement coming down hard on sports fantasy gaming/betting sites. Unless you're offshore probably in an island or Switzerland or something where you can't be touched.

It's not everyone's fault that you couldn't set your rake properly. Have you even offered people 50-75% of their purse to keep things chill for now? That would be the smart/classy/right thing to do for now.

Something had to happen. Someone ran off with the cash, a big financial emergency came up for someone involved with the site, prize money was used in gambling that didn't pan out. This thing has to be way deeper than "Sorry, Fantasy Gambling Software v7.0 cost way more than we thought it would."

Capital? Like what? Trying to sign up suckers already for next year?

Boo. You may have just ruined the future of this whole thing for a lot of people. A lot of the best fantasy league sites are buoyed by the fact that they can offer similar high stakes leagues to play in.

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I have to agree with a couple of the comments that have been said above

1. I think it is very GOOD that the AFFL is making comments on this board and letting the public KNOW what is going on ...

BUT ..... BIG BUT

no business/person/ company/ lottery/ gambling site .. whatever you want to call it .. should make claims / promise's or advertise payouts IF THEY CAN NOT MEET the payouts at the exact day that was PROMISED ....

" the cost " of business should never even enter into the equation of the prize money ...... that should have been a seperate cost and expense from another account .. " dipping" into prize money was wrong anyway you slice and dice ..

they do sound HONEST and I hope for the " hobby of fantasy football " it gets resolved ...

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While it is nice and well of you to come forward with what has happened you should have done this a long time ago. This should have been done prior to the mid-season contest when you knew you were in trouble. You were already in the zone of insolvency at that point and should have addressed the issues then and there.

This is a complete calamity.

You have buried your head in the sand and hoped for a miracle and it simply has not occurred.

For the sake of the players and their supposed winnings I hope funds are found to pay them. Once that occurs you should do the right thing and resign your position and/or provide everyone with a full accounting of where the money was spent.

To say that the player growth strategy fell short is unacceptable.

Please do your best to rectify the situation and then step aside. That would be the best thing for you, the customers, creditors and the fantasy football industry.

Kind regards.

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You shouldn't run a gambling site (that's what this is) unless you can pay out. This is like letting the wrong person hold the purse for the work pool. If you were a local bookie, you'd probably have broken or smashed limbs by now. If you were lucky. I wonder how much is owed to how many people. tens, hundreds of thousands? Millions? Do sites like AFFL and others pay taxes or do they keep income and payouts under the table? Judging by those posting here, the big payouts must have been paid out and only smaller ones remain. Or those waiting for big payouts are keeping their lips zipped lest the feds swoop in and confiscate everything.It's not even as if you have to produce an actual product and mail it somewhere or something. Or have a store or rent to pay for. Or overhead that you purchase at wholesale cost then turn for a profit. You have advertising everywhere. How could you have so much trouble where dozens of other sites like yours do not?If this is not resolved FAST, I could see lawmakers and law enforcement coming down hard on sports fantasy gaming/betting sites. Unless you're offshore probably in an island or Switzerland or something where you can't be touched.It's not everyone's fault that you couldn't set your rake properly. Have you even offered people 50-75% of their purse to keep things chill for now? That would be the smart/classy/right thing to do for Something had to happen. Someone ran off with the cash, a big financial emergency came up for someone involved with the site, prize money was used in gambling that didn't pan out. This thing has to be way deeper than "Sorry, Fantasy Gambling Software v7.0 cost way more than we thought it would."Capital? Like what? Trying to sign up suckers already for next year?Boo. You may have just ruined the future of this whole thing for a lot of people. A lot of the best fantasy league sites are buoyed by the fact that they can offer similar high stakes leagues to play in.

if i knew how to attach an email to this i would, but apparently the winner of the silver contest (40K) has had several conversations with neil and has been told that there is long term debt of 850K and assets of 15K. Obviously, noone has been paid, grand prize winners or otherwise.

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Edited to accurately portray what I understand the situation to be. They are not reneging. They are delaying. Hoping for the best here for them.J

lmFAoit's the middle of february. if you can't pay out people by now you are reneging.

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Thanks Jason.

The money was spent on operating costs this year.

There are many factors as to why the operating costs were higher then projected and why the revenues were much lower then expected. Unfortunately for our situation is that many of the decisions about what money is to be spent on technology is done based on sign-up projections, before a sign-up is over.

As you can see from this post on our forums (fifth post down in the thread): http://forums.affl.com/tm.asp?m=2012, our payouts were far greater then that of the incoming money. I am not saying that the payout percentage is the reason, but it is definitely a contributor.

I do have an objection to the title of the thread, as we have absolutely no intention of reneging on the prize money. We have just delayed it for a short period.

it is not a delay if you have no source of capital with which to repay. it is very misleading for you to insinuate it is for a short period when you have no idea i would imagine.

i am sure you didn't have the intention to reneg, but it is what you are doing.

i would hope that you are at least paying the people you owe some form of interest for TMV.

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Thanks Jason.

The money was spent on operating costs this year.

There are many factors as to why the operating costs were higher then projected and why the revenues were much lower then expected. Unfortunately for our situation is that many of the decisions about what money is to be spent on technology is done based on sign-up projections, before a sign-up is over.

As you can see from this post on our forums (fifth post down in the thread): http://forums.affl.com/tm.asp?m=2012, our payouts were far greater then that of the incoming money. I am not saying that the payout percentage is the reason, but it is definitely a contributor.

I do have an objection to the title of the thread, as we have absolutely no intention of reneging on the prize money. We have just delayed it for a short period.

it is not a delay if you have no source of capital with which to repay. it is very misleading for you to insinuate it is for a short period when you have no idea i would imagine.

i am sure you didn't have the intention to reneg, but it is what you are doing.

i would hope that you are at least paying the people you owe some form of interest for TMV.

Let's be honest, and realistic. Nobody is getting paid. Ever.

There it is.

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It is slightly different then hitting the lottery, unless you have received the winning numbers for the lottery ahead of time.I have software that not many people in the industry have. It is worth a significant amount, and many investors know it.

:bye:your posts in here demonstrate your inability to manage this company.i provide mezzanine debt and equity for start up homebuilders so i know a something about venture capital and companies coming out of the ground with high start up costs. your decision to ramp up costs based on poor projections is flat out mismanagement and horrendous execution. you got excited and spent way too much on systems you didn't have to have and are now paying the price.i don't doubt you had the best intentions. i don't doubt you wanted to provide the best software to your customers. but it means nothing if you are insolvent.what is worse is you made another horrible management decision with the mid season contest in the hopes that a business loan would close. there is a glaring trend of being at best naive and at worst dishonest with your customers.i hope you get out of the mess you got yourself into. however this trend of poor execution in systemic in this organization and anyone is a fool to put their money with your contest in the future.i have seen this time and time again...even if you get yourself out of this mess, you will make another ridiculously poor decision in the future. my honest advice is to get out before you get sued and lose everything...if it isn't already too late.

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Thanks Jason.

The money was spent on operating costs this year.

There are many factors as to why the operating costs were higher then projected and why the revenues were much lower then expected. Unfortunately for our situation is that many of the decisions about what money is to be spent on technology is done based on sign-up projections, before a sign-up is over.

As you can see from this post on our forums (fifth post down in the thread): http://forums.affl.com/tm.asp?m=2012, our payouts were far greater then that of the incoming money. I am not saying that the payout percentage is the reason, but it is definitely a contributor.

I do have an objection to the title of the thread, as we have absolutely no intention of reneging on the prize money. We have just delayed it for a short period.

it is not a delay if you have no source of capital with which to repay. it is very misleading for you to insinuate it is for a short period when you have no idea i would imagine.

i am sure you didn't have the intention to reneg, but it is what you are doing.

i would hope that you are at least paying the people you owe some form of interest for TMV.

Let's be honest, and realistic. Nobody is getting paid. Ever.

There it is.

i have seen enough situations similar to this one to where i agree 100%.

it is laughable Joe is defending them here.

what venture capital company is going to invest in a failing fantasy football contest league with the country going into (or already being in) a recession, where customer trust is the #1 factor in people paying hundreds or thousands of dollars to a company they don't know.

with this out, they are done.

but hey, at least they have the cool software.

:thumbdown:

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This is why I only play with people I trust - I give cred to the guy for posting an update but his smarmy "your only recourse will be bankruptcy court" is not wise comment.

There are other recourses stated in here earlier - fraud and federal charges.

I would keep a humble tone at all costs - if what the poster said is true and there is a $850K to $15K disparity that is not bad business that could be considered criminal IMO especially with a mid season content imported more funds when the ship was already sunk.

Good luck fellas- BTW - I love Joe but think the original title was appropriate.

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You shouldn't run a gambling site (that's what this is) unless you can pay out. This is like letting the wrong person hold the purse for the work pool. If you were a local bookie, you'd probably have broken or smashed limbs by now. If you were lucky. I wonder how much is owed to how many people. tens, hundreds of thousands? Millions? Do sites like AFFL and others pay taxes or do they keep income and payouts under the table? Judging by those posting here, the big payouts must have been paid out and only smaller ones remain. Or those waiting for big payouts are keeping their lips zipped lest the feds swoop in and confiscate everything.It's not even as if you have to produce an actual product and mail it somewhere or something. Or have a store or rent to pay for. Or overhead that you purchase at wholesale cost then turn for a profit. You have advertising everywhere. How could you have so much trouble where dozens of other sites like yours do not?If this is not resolved FAST, I could see lawmakers and law enforcement coming down hard on sports fantasy gaming/betting sites. Unless you're offshore probably in an island or Switzerland or something where you can't be touched.It's not everyone's fault that you couldn't set your rake properly. Have you even offered people 50-75% of their purse to keep things chill for now? That would be the smart/classy/right thing to do for now.Something had to happen. Someone ran off with the cash, a big financial emergency came up for someone involved with the site, prize money was used in gambling that didn't pan out. This thing has to be way deeper than "Sorry, Fantasy Gambling Software v7.0 cost way more than we thought it would."Capital? Like what? Trying to sign up suckers already for next year?Boo. You may have just ruined the future of this whole thing for a lot of people. A lot of the best fantasy league sites are buoyed by the fact that they can offer similar high stakes leagues to play in.

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Some great posts here, most guys are 100% on target...

Neil, we haven't heard from you in a while, those who have defended you, have stated it's admirable that you were forthcoming and open about your problems so why not continue to do so by answering a few of the basic questions some posters have thrown out?

Has anyone been paid? Are the debt to equity numbers posted above accurate? 850k debt to 15k equity?

Joe, We all love you, you're a great guy and run a great site but please, please, please don't defend this guy or put your name on a recommendation that he's a good guy or been nice when you've dealt with him. This situation is ALARMING and could be the smoking gun that puts heat and problems on the entire rest of the industry, YOURSELF included Joe. I don't mean that you run a league like Neil but your site depends on thousands of subscribers and if the industry itself gets hit because less people play in high stakes leagues now or they play only on the name sites so they have confidence, that can't help your business. People are going to avoid the unknown sites and if they play, they will run to sportsline, espn, fox, sporting news, etc, etc, names that have household value and are known. The others, I'd find another line of work immediately. With all the nonsense going on right now in sports, Clemens, the Spygate Pats, etc, etc, a FFL site ripping off all it's customers is not something that can possibly be viewed as "good for the business"

The bottom line is Neil, unless there is a miracle, I'll be shocked if you don't go to jail. I hate to be so blunt but as other people who have posted here who have experience in this have insinuated, there is only one of two explanations for what happened.

1. Neil or someone working for him is a THIEF

2. Neil is the worst businessman in the history of the free world..... $850K in debt / $15K in assets, laying hope to venture capitalist????? right... and Roger Clemens didn't take steriods......

No one is getting their money and Neil is probably going to jail.......

That sucks but that's the bottom line.....

Stop defending him Joe, it's admirable you're such a nice guy but don't smear your good name with his dirt.....

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Some great posts here, most guys are 100% on target...Neil, we haven't heard from you in a while, those who have defended you, have stated it's admirable that you were forthcoming and open about your problems so why not continue to do so by answering a few of the basic questions some posters have thrown out?Has anyone been paid? Are the debt to equity numbers posted above accurate? 850k debt to 15k equity? Joe, We all love you, you're a great guy and run a great site but please, please, please don't defend this guy or put your name on a recommendation that he's a good guy or been nice when you've dealt with him. This situation is ALARMING and could be the smoking gun that puts heat and problems on the entire rest of the industry, YOURSELF included Joe. I don't mean that you run a league like Neil but your site depends on thousands of subscribers and if the industry itself gets hit because less people play in high stakes leagues now or they play only on the name sites so they have confidence, that can't help your business. People are going to avoid the unknown sites and if they play, they will run to sportsline, espn, fox, sporting news, etc, etc, names that have household value and are known. The others, I'd find another line of work immediately. With all the nonsense going on right now in sports, Clemens, the Spygate Pats, etc, etc, a FFL site ripping off all it's customers is not something that can possibly be viewed as "good for the business"The bottom line is Neil, unless there is a miracle, I'll be shocked if you don't go to jail. I hate to be so blunt but as other people who have posted here who have experience in this have insinuated, there is only one of two explanations for what happened.1. Neil or someone working for him is a THIEF2. Neil is the worst businessman in the history of the free world..... $850K in debt / $15K in assets, laying hope to venture capitalist????? right... and Roger Clemens didn't take steriods......No one is getting their money and Neil is probably going to jail.......That sucks but that's the bottom line.....Stop defending him Joe, it's admirable you're such a nice guy but don't smear your good name with his dirt.....

Correct me if I'm wrong. But He has to live in the states to go to jail, correct?Maybe, He already skipped out. Unless this guy is stupid, I'm sure He's long gone by now. :goodposting:

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No, I have not skipped town.

Although the debt is $850,000 our assets are over $850,000. We have had a software valuation of $850K in recreation cost.

No one at AFFL is a crook, and I can guarantee that I know the laws about this one more then you. We are in full compliance with every law that we need to be. Although we are not going to file we do know the bankruptcy laws very well.

We do not fall under any sweepstakes laws or lottery laws. Fantasy football is considered a game of skill.

I can tell you that you are dreaming if you think that all fantasy contests don't count on the entry fees coming in to pay the prizes.

We do pay our taxes and all prizes are paid over the table.

Furthermore, we don't need Joe to go out on a limb for us. We have been fully forthcoming, and do have plenty of investors that are interested.

We are not pitching investors purely on AFFL, but also the fact that we will be launching a full commissioner product this year. Our software rivals any out there now.

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One more thing, I am not the only contest this year that hasn't paid in full yet (whether or not you have heard about it).

if this is true I can see it now.AFFL.COM: What are you in for FF.COM?FF.COM: Ripping off people.FF.COM: AFFL.COM what are you in for?AFFL.COM: Same thing.FF.COM: AFFL.COM want to start up a League in here.AFFL.COM: Sure.FF.COM: You get 1st pick.AFFL.COM: I take Bubba from Cell Block B. :goodposting: Neil, just busting your chops. I'm sure everything will work out for you.Hope the AFFL.COM is bigger and better and everyone forgets and moves on.Good Luck. Please keep us updated. Again Good Luck.

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