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aerolaw

AFFL: FINANCIAL ISSUES AND CONCERNS

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I also hope Joe doesn't keep defending this guy - his now second references to bankruptcy shatters all credibility IMO - of course I am not a consumer (thank goodness) but a mere spectator in the court of message board opinion - for whatever that is worth!

Don't get confused. I have never defended the AFFL. When they said they were delaying their payments, I took them at their word and changed the thread title to say they were delaying. That's far from defending.I don't know them and know nothing about them. In fact, all I know is that they're causing non NFL threads to be in the Shark Pool and that's not cool. I will fix that soon.J
Changing the thread title from "reneging" to "delaying" added to this perception. Especially when it is more accurate to say that they are, actually, reneging on their payments--not delaying them. To delay would imply that they have money and just haven't put the checks in the mail. As of right now, they are totally reneging on this promise and are just hoping for the stars to align so they can get more funding. Changing the title to soften the language communicates some degree of favoritism towards AFFL. Jason has explained the reasoning for this, so I think I get it now. But, I think it's also important for you to understand how/why your actions have shaped this perception.

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I also hope Joe doesn't keep defending this guy - his now second references to bankruptcy shatters all credibility IMO - of course I am not a consumer (thank goodness) but a mere spectator in the court of message board opinion - for whatever that is worth!

Don't get confused. I have never defended the AFFL. When they said they were delaying their payments, I took them at their word and changed the thread title to say they were delaying. That's far from defending.I don't know them and know nothing about them. In fact, all I know is that they're causing non NFL threads to be in the Shark Pool and that's not cool. I will fix that soon.J
Changing the thread title from "reneging" to "delaying" added to this perception. Especially when it is more accurate to say that they are, actually, reneging on their payments--not delaying them. To delay would imply that they have money and just haven't put the checks in the mail. As of right now, they are totally reneging on this promise and are just hoping for the stars to align so they can get more funding. Changing the title to soften the language communicates some degree of favoritism towards AFFL. Jason has explained the reasoning for this, so I think I get it now. But, I think it's also important for you to understand how/why your actions have shaped this perception.
They announced they were delaying payment. I changed a thread title to reflect that. Please show me anything where I "keep defending" the AFFL. Then maybe I can understand how you're getting this "perception".J

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Guys, seriously...the fastest way to have this thread locked and AFFL discussions tabled permanently is to come in and post YouTube videos and to make light of the situation. It's serious with serious repercussions, but the notion that this suddenly opens the door to us allowing personal attacks as a result is flawed.

Won't happen again. Just trying to make it less tense.

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Honestly, it comes down to this. If you want this thread to stay open as a place where people can keep the situation updated and voice their concerns; keep the personal affronts or mockery to a minimum. Otherwise it'll get deleted like every other thread of its kind in the Shark Pool does.

Not deleting but moving. These kinds of threads have never been allowed in the Shark Pool and we're not starting now. If you see threads like this, please continue to report them and they will be moved. The Shark Pool has always been for NFL info and sometimes Footballguys info. This can play out here for a bit but moving soon.

J

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1) Wal-Mart, DirecTV and CBS are major corporations that serves millions (or in Wal-Mart's case, billions) of people. What's said on a message board has little to no discernible impact on them, or how they run their businesses. They're also not people. Last time I checked, Lee Scott, Chase Carey and Les Moonves aren't reading our forums or participating, nor are any of the threads you mentioned assailing their personal character.2) Neil (who I've never met, nor do I know anything about AFFL's operations having never participated in the league) has come onto this thread and personally addressed the issues. He's made himself available for criticism. 3) Our collective influence relative to Wal-Mart, DirecTV or CBS is insignificant. Our collective influence on the fantasy football community; particularly things like high stakes leagues (where a decent chunk of our subscribers seem to participate) has significance. 4) Reprimanding Neil's assumptions for a recovery or his decisions up until this point are fair game (and haven't been deleted). But personal attacks on a guy or YouTube videos of a woman getting slapped silly in a wedding don't fly in this instance OR ANY OTHER. Honestly, it comes down to this. If you want this thread to stay open as a place where people can keep the situation updated and voice their concerns; keep the personal affronts or mockery to a minimum. Otherwise it'll get deleted like every other thread of its kind in the Shark Pool does.

That's fair. All of it. So, you're stating here that FBGs have no direct financial interests--present or future--in AFFL? That this is purely related to the perceived potential impact of this messageboard on how the events with AFFL may play out and that you want to keep Neil from being personally beaten up like a pinata here? If so, that seems totally reasonable. But, if you have a vested stake in AFFL, I think that should be characterized in some form or fashion.
I think Joe already covered this, but neither he, David nor I (nor any other FBG for that matter although I can't say as though I've surveyed the rest of them :yucky: ) have any financial interest in the AFFL or Neil (I don't even know his last name) past, present or future.Clear enough?
Yup. Thank you.

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They announced they were delaying payment. I changed a thread title to reflect that. J

Do you honestly not see a problem with this? You automatically took the side of AFFL by changing the thread title to delay without having any basis other than AFFL saying that is what was happening. You could have changed the title to something neutral (as you have now done). Since when does the accused get to dictate what the are guilty of?

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They announced they were delaying payment. I changed a thread title to reflect that. J

Do you honestly not see a problem with this? You automatically took the side of AFFL by changing the thread title to delay without having any basis other than AFFL saying that is what was happening. You could have changed the title to something neutral (as you have now done). Since when does the accused get to dictate what the are guilty of?
Frankly, I don't think the thread title change to something more "neutral" was even appropriate. As of right now, it is totally accurate to say that they are reneging on payment.

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They announced they were delaying payment. I changed a thread title to reflect that. Please show me anything where I "keep defending" the AFFL. Then maybe I can understand how you're getting this "perception".J

Joe, I think the issue is that historically title changing has only been done in cases where gross misrepresentation exists or to add value (searchability, etc.) to a thread. In this case, it was to change a word that only existed to put a positive spin on the situation. Of course AFFL calls it a delay and the customers call it reneging, it's just a matter of spin. It's sort of like how a big company will call something restructuring and the employees will call it a layoff. If you had changed a "Ford begins a massive round of layoffs" thread to "Ford begins its restructuring process" you exhibit a bias toward Ford because the original title wasn't grossly misrepresenting the situation and the title change only served to say the same thing in a way that would be more palatable to one party. That said, I understand that footballguys carries a big stick in the industry and that it's only responsible to be as cautious as possible in cases like this so that people aren't unjustly hurt if it turns out that one customer's check was just lost in the mail or something.

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Theesting to lock the thread is totally uncool of you guys... Just let it play out

No need to lock at all. These don't get locked unless they get stupid. But this isn't NFL news and info so this isn't the right forum.J

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Sorry I know this isn't the best forum but this isn't Shark Pool material and this looked to be the closest thing.

Hoping for the best and hoping the AFFL guys keep you folks informed here of what's going on.

J

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They announced they were delaying payment. I changed a thread title to reflect that. Please show me anything where I "keep defending" the AFFL. Then maybe I can understand how you're getting this "perception".J

Joe, I think the issue is that historically title changing has only been done in cases where gross misrepresentation exists or to add value (searchability, etc.) to a thread. In this case, it was to change a word that only existed to put a positive spin on the situation. Of course AFFL calls it a delay and the customers call it reneging, it's just a matter of spin. It's sort of like how a big company will call something restructuring and the employees will call it a layoff. If you had changed a "Ford begins a massive round of layoffs" thread to "Ford begins its restructuring process" you exhibit a bias toward Ford because the original title wasn't grossly misrepresenting the situation and the title change only served to say the same thing in a way that would be more palatable to one party. That said, I understand that footballguys carries a big stick in the industry and that it's only responsible to be as cautious as possible in cases like this so that people aren't unjustly hurt if it turns out that one customer's check was just lost in the mail or something.
Thanks Rooster. I think I do probably give the benefit of the doubt there and with as many eyes that see this board, we are cautious for things like that. I see your point.J

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I think this should have been moved to the Assistant Coach Forum instead.

What I don't get is why everyone feels the need to pile on the dude, saying the exact same thing that 15 other fantasy football nerds said with slightly longer and more complex words each time, complete with a couple eye rolls, slamming the dude, then saying "best of luck" or something equally pithy.

Guy messed up. Bad. At least he's put himself out here and is taking his medicine - and this is the least of his worries. Not saying anyone's wrong in their evaluation of him, just seems like there's a big rush to piss all over him and take the moral high ground.

Good luck, Neil

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I think this should have been moved to the Assistant Coach Forum instead.What I don't get is why everyone feels the need to pile on the dude, saying the exact same thing that 15 other fantasy football nerds said with slightly longer and more complex words each time, complete with a couple eye rolls, slamming the dude, then saying "best of luck" or something equally pithy.Guy messed up. Bad. At least he's put himself out here and is taking his medicine - and this is the least of his worries. Not saying anyone's wrong in their evaluation of him, just seems like there's a big rush to piss all over him and take the moral high ground.Good luck, Neil

Tell that to those the guy who has thousands of dollars coming to him.

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At the very least shouldn't this thread have been moved to the Free for all? There are far more ridiculous and less meaningful threads in that forum than this one.

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Well there are 2 turfwar threads in the "looking for leagues" section. Similar situation. Turfwar lasted a few weeks in the Shark Pool and was then moved. May as well move this one too. Those who are inclined to follow it can check it out there.

Maybe we could start a new "group" called "Looking for My Money" and move the Turfwar and AFFL to that heading. :lmao::thumbup:

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At the very least shouldn't this thread have been moved to the Free for all? There are far more ridiculous and less meaningful threads in that forum than this one.

I don't know. The topic certainly doesn't have much relevance to people "looking for leagues," given that it's about one business's failure to pay out money. The implication might have relevance (e.g., don't ever join AFFL), but it would be far more appropriate--and widely seen--in the FFA.Again, the topic has been effectively buried.

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Well there are 2 turfwar threads in the "looking for leagues" section. Similar situation. Turfwar lasted a few weeks in the Shark Pool and was then moved. May as well move this one too. Those who are inclined to follow it can check it out there.

Maybe we could start a new "group" called "Looking for My Money" and move the Turfwar and AFFL to that heading. :lmao::thumbup:

Point is, look at how much traffic that thread got when it was in the FFA compared to when it was moved here. Rightfully so, the topic transcends the "looking for leagues" relevance. I mean, when you think about what issues are at hand here, looking for a league would be at the bottom of the list.

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Wow. Thread effectively buried.

Deliberately so....makes you go hmmm. What was the point of burying this topic?
:shrug:Joe and Jason insist that they have no reason to give Neil or the AFFL any favorable treatment. I take them at their word. But, this move is perplexing and uncomfortable.

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Well there are 2 turfwar threads in the "looking for leagues" section. Similar situation. Turfwar lasted a few weeks in the Shark Pool and was then moved. May as well move this one too. Those who are inclined to follow it can check it out there.

Maybe we could start a new "group" called "Looking for My Money" and move the Turfwar and AFFL to that heading. :popcorn::shrug:

Point is, look at how much traffic that thread got when it was in the FFA compared to when it was moved here. Rightfully so, the topic transcends the "looking for leagues" relevance. I mean, when you think about what issues are at hand here, looking for a league would be at the bottom of the list.
When Turfwar got moved they were still making good on their payouts, things went sour a few weeks later. I agree that the move to Looking For Leagues for the most part puts the thread out of the Shark Pool limelight and spares hundreds if not thousands of eyeballs, but I really don't think it belongs in the SP. At this point the current thread accomplishes nothing and serves as a venting thread. Those who are due $ were already notified by AFFL, correct?

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Well there are 2 turfwar threads in the "looking for leagues" section. Similar situation. Turfwar lasted a few weeks in the Shark Pool and was then moved. May as well move this one too. Those who are inclined to follow it can check it out there.

Maybe we could start a new "group" called "Looking for My Money" and move the Turfwar and AFFL to that heading. :popcorn::shrug:

Point is, look at how much traffic that thread got when it was in the FFA compared to when it was moved here. Rightfully so, the topic transcends the "looking for leagues" relevance. I mean, when you think about what issues are at hand here, looking for a league would be at the bottom of the list.
When Turfwar got moved they were still making good on their payouts, things went sour a few weeks later. I agree that the move to Looking For Leagues for the most part puts the thread out of the Shark Pool limelight and spares hundreds if not thousands of eyeballs, but I really don't think it belongs in the SP. At this point it accomplishes nothing and serves as a venting thread.
If we removed all the venting threads in the SP, what would be left? Lists of your favorite Seinfeld episodes, but not much else. As long as people follow the rules, I see no reason why venting shouldn't be part of the discourse for this topic.

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Well there are 2 turfwar threads in the "looking for leagues" section. Similar situation. Turfwar lasted a few weeks in the Shark Pool and was then moved. May as well move this one too. Those who are inclined to follow it can check it out there.

Maybe we could start a new "group" called "Looking for My Money" and move the Turfwar and AFFL to that heading. :goodposting::goodposting:

Point is, look at how much traffic that thread got when it was in the FFA compared to when it was moved here. Rightfully so, the topic transcends the "looking for leagues" relevance. I mean, when you think about what issues are at hand here, looking for a league would be at the bottom of the list.
When Turfwar got moved they were still making good on their payouts, things went sour a few weeks later. I agree that the move to Looking For Leagues for the most part puts the thread out of the Shark Pool limelight and spares hundreds if not thousands of eyeballs, but I really don't think it belongs in the SP. At this point it accomplishes nothing and serves as a venting thread.
If we removed all the venting threads in the SP, what would be left? Lists of your favorite Seinfeld episodes, but not much else. As long as people follow the rules, I see no reason why venting shouldn't be part of the discourse for this topic.
This is venting about a business, not the NFL.

Shark Pool ventworthy = the leagues destroying the evidence of the Pats illegal videotaping <league damage control> : intentionally destroying evidence is highly irregular. Venting about that atrocity belongs in the Shark Pool, where this AFFL mismanagement IMO does not. You go Arlen!!!! I know, :goodposting: but I just could not resist!

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Poor choice, Joe. Everyone knows that this forum is a ghost town. Burying an open and honest discussion about a fantasy contest not fulfilling its obligation does a disservice to the fantasy community.

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A lot of gall these guys at AFFL have:

NEW Game Structures for 2008Sign-up Opens March 1st*Sign-up by June 1st to pay 2007 entry feesPlatinum, Gold, and Silver - Same game and prize structure as 2007 except the following additional prizes: * Highest individual team score for the regular season for a single week. (prize TBD) * Highest total league score for the regular season for all regular season weeks combined. (prize TBD)Bronze and Copper - NEW format; FULL season breakdown style with an 18 player roster

And, if you go to their messageboard, they've deleted any posted mention of their failure to pay. They won't even allow you to reply to the announcement that they're "delaying" payment.

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I think this should have been moved to the Assistant Coach Forum instead.What I don't get is why everyone feels the need to pile on the dude, saying the exact same thing that 15 other fantasy football nerds said with slightly longer and more complex words each time, complete with a couple eye rolls, slamming the dude, then saying "best of luck" or something equally pithy.Guy messed up. Bad. At least he's put himself out here and is taking his medicine - and this is the least of his worries. Not saying anyone's wrong in their evaluation of him, just seems like there's a big rush to piss all over him and take the moral high ground.Good luck, Neil

Wonder what you'd be saying if he owed you $100 grand??

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Joe,

The Shark Pool is to discuss fantasy football related matters. When fbg's has its contest, the thread is in the Shark Pool.

I cannot possibly understand how this is not a fantasy football related matter. It's a major issue that is affecting many of your customers. You've had other threads in the Shark Pool that are not discussing any paticular player or strategy but have covered other football websites.

Burying this thread is absolutely disgusting. I'm sure you'll find some crazy way to justify your actions here but there isn't any reason for what you've done.

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Joe,

The Shark Pool is to discuss fantasy football related matters. When fbg's has its contest, the thread is in the Shark Pool.

I cannot possibly understand how this is not a fantasy football related matter. It's a major issue that is affecting many of your customers. You've had other threads in the Shark Pool that are not discussing any paticular player or strategy but have covered other football websites.

Burying this thread is absolutely disgusting. I'm sure you'll find some crazy way to justify your actions here but there isn't any reason for what you've done.

More and more, I'm of the belief that there's an effort to be gentle with AFFL. Even just the language JB used to explain why he changed the title of this thread:

Edited to accurately portray what I understand the situation to be. They are not reneging. They are delaying. Hoping for the best here for them.

Hoping the best for them? What about the hundreds, if not thousands, that are owed significant sums of money? Any hope for them?

And, then the thread just sent to never-neverland where no one will have the first clue that this is going on. I don't know. I'm just glad I'm not the only one who thinks it's weird how this whole issue has been treated with kid gloves here.

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And, then the thread just sent to never-neverland where no one will have the first clue that this is going on. I don't know. I'm just glad I'm not the only one who thinks it's weird how this whole issue has been treated with kid gloves here.

It's not just weird. It's downright disgraceful. Though if he's going to bury the thread there's no reason we can't bring it back to the limelight via sigs...

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And, then the thread just sent to never-neverland where no one will have the first clue that this is going on. I don't know. I'm just glad I'm not the only one who thinks it's weird how this whole issue has been treated with kid gloves here.

It's not just weird. It's downright disgraceful. Though if he's going to bury the thread there's no reason we can't bring it back to the limelight via sigs...
Ironically, if the goal was to bury it and have it quietly go away, it accomplished just the opposite. As soon as couple of cuts were made and handful of new free agent rumors started, this would have vanished to page two with maybe one or two bumps.

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And, then the thread just sent to never-neverland where no one will have the first clue that this is going on. I don't know. I'm just glad I'm not the only one who thinks it's weird how this whole issue has been treated with kid gloves here.

It's not just weird. It's downright disgraceful. Though if he's going to bury the thread there's no reason we can't bring it back to the limelight via sigs...
Ironically, if the goal was to bury it and have it quietly go away, it accomplished just the opposite. As soon as couple of cuts were made and handful of new free agent rumors started, this would have vanished to page two with maybe one or two bumps.
It's not the crime...it's the cover-up.

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Well I count two non-nfl related threads on the first page alone. Technically since fantasy football rankings aren't nfl related there my be a half dozen plus. I find it intereseting that threads about Patriot lawsuit are allowed to litter the front page.

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I bet the "Looking for Leagues" forum hasn't had this much action since Brittney Spears lying on her back in the back of Pickup truck with a gun rack and confederate flag.

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Anyone here owed money?

Not me, but I came so damn close to joining this year. Got sidetracked. If I had won anything, I can't tell you how pissed I'd be right now.

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Just looking in the AFFl forums, and saw this post: (last november)

Let me get this straight. You are complaining that you are playing in a toilet bowl playoff for a $400 poker chip set, or if you are in the FREE Copper level, a $50 Sweatshirt.In case you had not calculated it the payout percentages for 2007 for each level are:Platinum 156% prize payout.Gold 121% prize payoutSilver 70% prize payoutBronze 152% (this does not take into the fact that half of the Bronze teams this year were free from the Copper teams)Copper is an infinite prize payoutNone of these percentages take into count the $9000 Waterford Crystal trophy for the Platinum, Gold, Silver, and Bronze winners.You are entitled to your opinion, but your comment "waste of money" is far out of line. I am 100% positive that there is not another company out there that has payout percentages like that; but your welcome to search.

No wonder they're in financial difficulty...

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Placing it here is terrible... Joe; how many of your own customers are getting ripped off... people who pay you money; all they want to do is come in and complain about it to others that are in the same situation... so you move the thread to an area that you hope it will just go away; I have just lost a lot of respect for this site... and I can see that a many others had too. No one got out of line with fool language... and your excuse is disgusting; the football season is over, this is the biggiest news we have until the draft and your telling us that we can't talk about it in the SP... HORRIBLE.

Never let it die boys.

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Placing it here is terrible... Joe; how many of your own customers are getting ripped off... people who pay you money; all they want to do is come in and complain about it to others that are in the same situation... so you move the thread to an area that you hope it will just go away; I have just lost a lot of respect for this site... and I can see that a many others had too. No one got out of line with fool language... and your excuse is disgusting; the football season is over, this is the biggiest news we have until the draft and your telling us that we can't talk about it in the SP... HORRIBLE.Never let it die boys.

JB doesn't need an apologist here but lighten up a bit. Its Sunday and I'm sure he had family stuff going on and just moved hastily in moving it here for now.

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These seems like the right forum to me. If I was looking to get in to another league, this is where I'd come. After reading this thread, I'd decide not to play at AFFL. Looks like a community service by placing it here.

For those that think this is the biggest news of the offseason-GL.

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