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aerolaw

AFFL: FINANCIAL ISSUES AND CONCERNS

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Joe, Woodrow and co. have earned my trust over the years and I respect their decisions with this topic/thread. :shrug: Questioning their interests in this seems foolish at this point. They have point blank answered the questions...let it go.

Neil and the AFFL is another story. At least this thread in the FBG's forum can include honest communication...that doesn't seem to be going on anywhere else.

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I think some of you are being too harsh on Joe & Co.

With respect to the title change...I see it as erring on the side of caution as each side gets their say. Also, I think there is some degree of empathy on Joe's part considering he is a fantasy football business owner and also owns another business as well.

So, I am sure he can "feel" for someone. Who knows, Joe may have been in similar, albeit less severe, situations in the past.

I think the forum placement is shoddy...but don't believe there is a "motive". The question was asked point blank and Joe stated there is no financial conflict of interest.

If he wanted to hide it...he could just delete all threads related to the matter and then ban posters who insist on not letting it die. They have shown that that is what they do with respect to posts criticizing the FFA as it has gone from being a place where grown men could chit chat, to the current PG rating of what will fly.

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At the very least shouldn't this thread have been moved to the Free for all? There are far more ridiculous and less meaningful threads in that forum than this one.

I don't know. The topic certainly doesn't have much relevance to people "looking for leagues," given that it's about one business's failure to pay out money. The implication might have relevance (e.g., don't ever join AFFL), but it would be far more appropriate--and widely seen--in the FFA.Again, the topic has been effectively buried.
As I said, we don't have a "looking for money" forum. Gladly. I don't know that this is the right forum. All I do know is that the Shark Pool isn't the right forum. It's certainly not as popular as the Shark Pool but this forum is as in the open as any forum we have. J

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And, then the thread just sent to never-neverland where no one will have the first clue that this is going on. I don't know. I'm just glad I'm not the only one who thinks it's weird how this whole issue has been treated with kid gloves here.

It's not just weird. It's downright disgraceful. Though if he's going to bury the thread there's no reason we can't bring it back to the limelight via sigs...
Ironically, if the goal was to bury it and have it quietly go away, it accomplished just the opposite. As soon as couple of cuts were made and handful of new free agent rumors started, this would have vanished to page two with maybe one or two bumps.
I'm pretty well in tune with our board works. If I wanted to bury the thread, I would have left it alone and not continued to post in it. I expect it will stay front and center here.J

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What's up Moyer, Nag' and Legacy? - I see you all are reading the thread.What do you guys think of the NFFC boards tearing apart a former competitor like a rabid dog? I do not think it is a very classy move, in spite of what AFFL has done to its customers. I think that a league that is trying to become the best should act in a more mature fashion than that. It reminds me yet again of the issues I have and will always have with the NFFC - the message board and its regulars. Not that I should be very surprised, either. I guess I had better not use a word in the wrong form. They have no "patients" for that over there, being Cambridge-educated scholars and all.

Hey Dave. You paying attention to this mess too, I see? Lot's of "not very classy moves" going around lately. I heard about your situation regarding the Gridiron league. If it were me, I'd be absolutely fuming.

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What's up Moyer, Nag' and Legacy? - I see you all are reading the thread.What do you guys think of the NFFC boards tearing apart a former competitor like a rabid dog? I do not think it is a very classy move, in spite of what AFFL has done to its customers. I think that a league that is trying to become the best should act in a more mature fashion than that. It reminds me yet again of the issues I have and will always have with the NFFC - the message board and its regulars. Not that I should be very surprised, either. I guess I had better not use a word in the wrong form. They have no "patients" for that over there, being Cambridge-educated scholars and all.

Hey Dave. You paying attention to this mess too, I see? Lot's of "not very classy moves" going around lately. I heard about your situation regarding the Gridiron league. If it were me, I'd be absolutely fuming.
I am not sure if it is just an oversight, laziness, or being broke as a mofo. Baker Boy had told them to apply it to next year, but there has been almost no followup. I am not TOO worried, just a little worried. Either way, I am going to Vegas the first weekend of football, I already have tickets.By the way, I wish the best of luck to ONLY the FANTASY PLAYERS that are owed money by the AFFL. As for the organization and his lame software, he can keep it. I will take good ol' Antsports and their one-week-after-the-season-is-over payouts over a cutting edge league and software with crappy finances any day of the week and so would any fantasy player. Disclaimer: I should also mention that the NFFC pays out right away, too - in spite of my complaints about their message board above. Is that good enough for ya King of Queens?

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Wow. Thread effectively buried.

Deliberately so....makes you go hmmm. What was the point of burying this topic?
;)Joe and Jason insist that they have no reason to give Neil or the AFFL any favorable treatment. I take them at their word. But, this move is perplexing and uncomfortable.
Here's a guess of a timeline-Joe and Co give people a forum to voice their complaint.Some doAFFL dude uses it to explain his side which involves a naive inexperienced business mistake by a supposed experienced businessmanpeople recognize it and barkSome start to turn it into a "well mine's bigger than yours" contestso AFFL dude pretends his FF software is more valuable than the software to arm a nuclear missileNothing changes from this point, he did state by a certain date, but people get impatient and jittery and wonder what's going on, leading to pointless bumps and pointless discussionJoe and Jason do their best "calm down" routine(knowing that nothing is to be gained by name calling and insults but only from a genuine discussion) and people get hissy with themPeople get more hissy and turn the venom away from AFFL dude and onto questioning these FBGs integrityAs the thread has turned ugly, AFFL dude (who was glad to have the opportunity to discuss this originally) now is probably grumpy with Joe and Co for providing a forum to beat him up in.Joe's in a spot now, the thread is not the same as it was when it started.He wants to transfer it to the "leave me the F out of it" forum but Memphis hasn't set that up yetJust a guess

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What's up Moyer, Nag' and Legacy? - I see you all are reading the thread.What do you guys think of the NFFC boards tearing apart a former competitor like a rabid dog? I do not think it is a very classy move, in spite of what AFFL has done to its customers. I think that a league that is trying to become the best should act in a more mature fashion than that. It reminds me yet again of the issues I have and will always have with the NFFC - the message board and its regulars. Not that I should be very surprised, either. I guess I had better not use a word in the wrong form. They have no "patients" for that over there, being Cambridge-educated scholars and all.

Hey Dave. You paying attention to this mess too, I see? Lot's of "not very classy moves" going around lately. I heard about your situation regarding the Gridiron league. If it were me, I'd be absolutely fuming.
I am not sure if it is just an oversight, laziness, or being broke as a mofo. Baker Boy had told them to apply it to next year, but there has been almost no followup. I am not TOO worried, just a little worried. Either way, I am going to Vegas the first weekend of football, I already have tickets.By the way, I wish the best of luck to ONLY the FANTASY PLAYERS that are owed money by the AFFL. As for the organization and his lame software, he can keep it. I will take good ol' Antsports and their one-week-after-the-season-is-over payouts over a cutting edge league and software with crappy finances any day of the week and so would any fantasy player. Disclaimer: I should also mention that the NFFC pays out right away, too - in spite of my complaints about their message board above. Is that good enough for ya King of Queens?
I wish I could vouch for NFFC, but I've yet to cash there, lol... As for them piling on, I've seen similar situations before there. Wasn't there a BFD bashing and then an outcry to capitalize on the adp results? Similar yet different I guess. It's hard to believe really that several of the leagues haven't paid out yet in WCOFF. I mean, growth wasn't as planned and prizes were bigger... and we all saw how much bigger and better things were this year.. that adds up... I'm just real puzzled why certain leagues, like your Gridiron league haven't came thru... Let's just keep our fingers crossed... I'm like others really with regards to AFFL. I'm owed $3,300. If I get it I'd be shocked.

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Wow. Thread effectively buried.

Deliberately so....makes you go hmmm. What was the point of burying this topic?
:devil:Joe and Jason insist that they have no reason to give Neil or the AFFL any favorable treatment. I take them at their word. But, this move is perplexing and uncomfortable.
Here's a guess of a timeline-Joe and Co give people a forum to voice their complaint.Some doAFFL dude uses it to explain his side which involves a naive inexperienced business mistake by a supposed experienced businessmanpeople recognize it and barkSome start to turn it into a "well mine's bigger than yours" contestso AFFL dude pretends his FF software is more valuable than the software to arm a nuclear missileNothing changes from this point, he did state by a certain date, but people get impatient and jittery and wonder what's going on, leading to pointless bumps and pointless discussionJoe and Jason do their best "calm down" routine(knowing that nothing is to be gained by name calling and insults but only from a genuine discussion) and people get hissy with themPeople get more hissy and turn the venom away from AFFL dude and onto questioning these FBGs integrityAs the thread has turned ugly, AFFL dude (who was glad to have the opportunity to discuss this originally) now is probably grumpy with Joe and Co for providing a forum to beat him up in.Joe's in a spot now, the thread is not the same as it was when it started.He wants to transfer it to the "leave me the F out of it" forum but Memphis hasn't set that up yetJust a guess
;) Pretty awesome summary. Better than the cliff notes version I could come up with. Rather than JB having any vested interest in this whole thing, to the contrary, I get the sense he'd just rather not deal with it at all. Hence the banishment to this forum (although, I bet this thread today has to be the highest trafficked thread on an out of season day ever; so, kudos to all who've come over to the sleepy LFL!). If it were moved to the FFA, it'd probably get a good deal more people worked up. Great for us. Highly entertaining. And, absolutely good to expose AFFL for being complete rejects through this entire mess. But, I can understand why Joe wouldn't want the headache.That's my latest theory for what's going on here. Subject to change, of course. ;)

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Wow. Thread effectively buried.

Deliberately so....makes you go hmmm. What was the point of burying this topic?
:thumbup:Joe and Jason insist that they have no reason to give Neil or the AFFL any favorable treatment. I take them at their word. But, this move is perplexing and uncomfortable.
Here's a guess of a timeline-Joe and Co give people a forum to voice their complaint.Some doAFFL dude uses it to explain his side which involves a naive inexperienced business mistake by a supposed experienced businessmanpeople recognize it and barkSome start to turn it into a "well mine's bigger than yours" contestso AFFL dude pretends his FF software is more valuable than the software to arm a nuclear missileNothing changes from this point, he did state by a certain date, but people get impatient and jittery and wonder what's going on, leading to pointless bumps and pointless discussionJoe and Jason do their best "calm down" routine(knowing that nothing is to be gained by name calling and insults but only from a genuine discussion) and people get hissy with themPeople get more hissy and turn the venom away from AFFL dude and onto questioning these FBGs integrityAs the thread has turned ugly, AFFL dude (who was glad to have the opportunity to discuss this originally) now is probably grumpy with Joe and Co for providing a forum to beat him up in.Joe's in a spot now, the thread is not the same as it was when it started.He wants to transfer it to the "leave me the F out of it" forum but Memphis hasn't set that up yetJust a guess
I don't really blame Joe or anybody here at FBG for changing the thread title or moving the thread. At the time the title was changed, the plans were to "delay" payment. Now, it's become much more clear that it's a "delay at best" situation. Editing for accuracy has happened on MANY occasions here, it's the way things are ran, and I gotta tell ya, it's one of THE premier message boards I visit daily. I appreciate how CLEAN it is. Kinda like Disney world right Dave?As for moving the thread, I think that was due to the personal attacks and insinuations. Usually threads get locked when it gets to that point, so I think we got the better of the two in the end.

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I'm like others really with regards to AFFL. I'm owed $3,300. If I get it I'd be shocked.

Ugh...:stomachpunch:

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Legacy, that is a perfect example of what I LOVE about the Footballguys boards. It is exactly like Dinsey World in that respect. If a Disney employee sees some trash laying around, they pick it up and get rid of it, so that you can enjoy the park. If FBG mods see some trashy post or personal attack, it gets cleaned up and we are all better off for it.

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I'm more or less a spectator in this thread, haven't really done the high stakes league thing and this makes me pretty content to stick to the couple of friendly leagues I'm in.

Random musings:

Is March 1 really a normal start date for a contest? I honestly don't know and am asking. Is that there to appear to an investor?

It seems like they have a potential for problems with prize funds again, at least in so far as they've put up prize amounts that may or may not be supported by the number of entries. (Though it does at least say that these prizes are subject to change when 'official' rules are posted on March 1st. I'm gathering this will be a critical date in how this all ends up going down.

The Experian ad about checking your credit score seemed a bitter irony.

I think this is a reasonable forum as any to have it posted - even though it's not too active. I think active consumers for these kinds of contests would probably look to this forum for advice about them. That this isn't a very active forum isn't a total negative either - this thread is likely to be page 1 for quite some time here I think.

At any rate, good luck to those involved!

-QG

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Wow. Thread effectively buried.

Deliberately so....makes you go hmmm. What was the point of burying this topic?
:confused:Joe and Jason insist that they have no reason to give Neil or the AFFL any favorable treatment. I take them at their word. But, this move is perplexing and uncomfortable.
Here's a guess of a timeline-Joe and Co give people a forum to voice their complaint.Some doAFFL dude uses it to explain his side which involves a naive inexperienced business mistake by a supposed experienced businessmanpeople recognize it and barkSome start to turn it into a "well mine's bigger than yours" contestso AFFL dude pretends his FF software is more valuable than the software to arm a nuclear missileNothing changes from this point, he did state by a certain date, but people get impatient and jittery and wonder what's going on, leading to pointless bumps and pointless discussionJoe and Jason do their best "calm down" routine(knowing that nothing is to be gained by name calling and insults but only from a genuine discussion) and people get hissy with themPeople get more hissy and turn the venom away from AFFL dude and onto questioning these FBGs integrityAs the thread has turned ugly, AFFL dude (who was glad to have the opportunity to discuss this originally) now is probably grumpy with Joe and Co for providing a forum to beat him up in.Joe's in a spot now, the thread is not the same as it was when it started.He wants to transfer it to the "leave me the F out of it" forum but Memphis hasn't set that up yetJust a guess
Hi Bri,I will say you're right on the trying to calm down thing as nothing can be gained from name calling. We always are on that page. But I really don't feel to be in any "spot" as I truly am in the "leave me out of it" position as I don't have a dog in the fight. And honestly for all I care, this can be the most viewed page on our site today. Makes no difference to me. My only concern for the boards was that it was in the right forum. I don't know that this is the right forum exactly but I know the Shark Pool is the wrong forum. I continue to hope something good happens and the guys that are owed money will get it. Hopefully this thread can help.J

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Joe, listen too your customers... Put it back for us. If you quite the people... Then affl has won and u helped.

Thanks Kelly. I am definitely listening to the customers there. They spoke very loudly that what they wanted was a Shark Pool forum that focused on news and strategy discussion. With out the other things.AFFL has won nothing from this board. I expect this topic to stay at the very top of our forum. Something that would never have never happened in the Shark Pool. I hope the AFFL guy keeps people posted here and I hope everyone gets every penny they are owed.J

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I did want to put something else into perspective.

As of today, we are 13 days late on prize payments. I suppose none of you have ever been late on any payment at all.

As I said above, I have a resolution in the works and should have an update on Wednesday or Thursday.

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I did want to put something else into perspective.As of today, we are 13 days late on prize payments. I suppose none of you have ever been late on any payment at all.As I said above, I have a resolution in the works and should have an update on Wednesday or Thursday.

Stay with us here, Neil. Not hearing anything is the worst thing so please keep the guys informed of where you are on things. We're all effectively on the same side as EVERYONE wants a positive resolution here.J

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I did want to put something else into perspective.As of today, we are 13 days late on prize payments. I suppose none of you have ever been late on any payment at all.

In all fairness Neil.. Don't start pulling this crap. Late is one thing. To post that OUR prize money was SPENT is another. To post that you've basically GAMBLED MY ENTRY FEE on the hopes your business would grow is a slap in the face. When you spend other people's money, that is stealing bro, don't you get it? I'm one of the guys rooting for you but honestly, if you keep exposing yourself in this form, I'd just as soon see you get your due.Bad form.

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I did want to put something else into perspective.

As of today, we are 13 days late on prize payments. I suppose none of you have ever been late on any payment at all.

As I said above, I have a resolution in the works and should have an update on Wednesday or Thursday.

For most people that aren't owed money and are watching this thread, it is not about payments being late. It is about a fantasy football company and its inability to pay unless someone bails you out. More importantly, a situation like this could potentially have a negative impact on the entire industry.

I wish you luck, but it is probably in your best interest for you PR wise to not make statements like the above trying to downplay the situation that you are in.

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I suppose none of you have ever been late on any payment at all.

That is unnecessarily insulting.

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I suppose none of you have ever been late on any payment at all.

That is unnecessarily insulting.
:popcorn: I am not involved but why make a comment like that? :lmao:

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I did want to put something else into perspective.

As of today, we are 13 days late on prize payments. I suppose none of you have ever been late on any payment at all.

As I said above, I have a resolution in the works and should have an update on Wednesday or Thursday.

For most people that aren't owed money and are watching this thread, it is not about payments being late. It is about a fantasy football company and its inability to pay unless someone bails you out. More importantly, a situation like this could potentially have a negative impact on the entire industry.

I wish you luck, but it is probably in your best interest for you PR wise to not make statements like the above trying to downplay the situation that you are in.

People keep alluding to this having a negative impact on the entire industry. I don't see how that could be possible. As if, the "Feds" getting wind of this thing could crumble the fantasy sports industry. Maybe I'm just being naive but I don't see how that's possible.

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I did want to put something else into perspective.

As of today, we are 13 days late on prize payments. I suppose none of you have ever been late on any payment at all.

As I said above, I have a resolution in the works and should have an update on Wednesday or Thursday.

You seriously didn't just say that, did you? I mean, seriously.

I appreciate the fact that I can look at AFFL's history and how the owner responds to its grim, mismanaged operation and know that I would never, in a million years, step within 100 miles of the idea of ever doing business with you--as a fantasy owner, venture capitalist, investor, none of it.

Neil, we are all very interested to hear about your resolution on Wednesday or Thursday. We are also very interested to hear your comments on continuing to collect receipts from paying customers for the 2008 season when there is already significant concern that you will not be in a position to pay out your 2007 debts.

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Sorry guys,

I know that I am in the wrong, but it is hard to get beat up all day when you are trying so hard to make things right again.

I am on the same side, and I am going to make it happen. We are very close, and I am sure we will find a fast resolution.

All the people that have dealt with us in the past know how much I am committed to our customers and customer service. Consider my previous post just a venting, and not how I truly feel.

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I did want to put something else into perspective.

As of today, we are 13 days late on prize payments. I suppose none of you have ever been late on any payment at all.

As I said above, I have a resolution in the works and should have an update on Wednesday or Thursday.

For most people that aren't owed money and are watching this thread, it is not about payments being late. It is about a fantasy football company and its inability to pay unless someone bails you out. More importantly, a situation like this could potentially have a negative impact on the entire industry.

I wish you luck, but it is probably in your best interest for you PR wise to not make statements like the above trying to downplay the situation that you are in.

People keep alluding to this having a negative impact on the entire industry. I don't see how that could be possible. As if, the "Feds" getting wind of this thing could crumble the fantasy sports industry. Maybe I'm just being naive but I don't see how that's possible.
I am specifically referring to fantasy football contests, not necessarily fantasy football information sites.

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Sorry guys,

I know that I am in the wrong, but it is hard to get beat up all day when you are trying so hard to make things right again.

I am on the same side, and I am going to make it happen. We are very close, and I am sure we will find a fast resolution.

All the people that have dealt with us in the past know how much I am committed to our customers and customer service. Consider my previous post just a venting, and not how I truly feel.

This is the medicine you've got to take, Neil. No real other option. You've got guys out there who are owed thousands of dollars from you. You've got other people who are not owed any money but are want to clean up the shady neighborhoods in this community that are dictated by shady business practices. If you do, indeed, find a resolution to pay your customers, it will go a long way in restoring some semblance of faith in the stability of your company and how it operates. Emphasis on some. But, this is the medicine you've just got to swallow right now. Vent at home. Vent while you're in the car. But, never, ever vent at your customers--present or future. It's really just generally a bad, bad idea.

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disclaimer : I did not lose any money.

Let's give affl some time to get things sorted out and see what comes of it. I don't think that being "un-excellent" with harsh words will actually help in resolving this. It only serves to escalate emotions. You have to give Neil some credit for staying in touch here. Jeff Pester from Turfwar has been AWOL for months!

I do hope that all who are owed do get paid as they should.

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disclaimer : I did not lose any money.Let's give affl some time to get things sorted out and see what comes of it. I don't think that being "un-excellent" with harsh words will actually help in resolving this. It only serves to escalate emotions. You have to give Neil some credit for staying in touch here. Jeff Pester from Turfwar has been AWOL for months!I do hope that all who are owed do get paid as they should.

Not sure what you're reading. Given the circumstances, I think most people have been way, way accommodating and have given Neil a lot of latitude here, considering some of the alternatives. I think most folks here have been way excellent and shown substantial restraint.Being critical <> being un-excellent

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We have not opened up sign-up for 2008, and won't do so until the prizes are paid out, and the company is solidified going into the future.

We are working with a couple of insurance companies to escrow the 2008 prize fund, and insure the prizes in the event that we do not have enough contestants. There will be more to come on that subject after the prizes are paid out.

Someone mentioned that people have held over winnings toward 2008 entry fees. All contestants did have an opportunity to do so electronically. If they elected to do that, they received a store credit number at that time. There really is no further communication required. We have had a few customers that have contacted us since this announcement was made regarding being willing to hold their prize over to 2008. I believe we have contacted everyone who was interested, but I will go back to look if we missed someone.

I do not believe there will be a negative impact to the industry because of this. If anything I think there will be a big positive out of it. There is a big call to action from players that want all of the contests to escrow prize funds.

There was a comment awhile back on the value of our software. Unless you have intimate knowledge of what it takes to build a commissioner product, then I would not expect you to understand the value there. Not to mention that it is built on next generation technology that makes is incredible scalable.

I am not pitching my potential investors on high-stakes. To be honest, there really is not a lot of money in it because of the tight margins. At this point we are debating running a high-stakes game for 2008 (calling high-stakes anything over $500). Even if we do, we are probably only going to offer 4 leagues with maybe winner take all. We will have to evaluate that after the prizes are paid out.

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disclaimer : I did not lose any money.Let's give affl some time to get things sorted out and see what comes of it. I don't think that being "un-excellent" with harsh words will actually help in resolving this. It only serves to escalate emotions. You have to give Neil some credit for staying in touch here. Jeff Pester from Turfwar has been AWOL for months!I do hope that all who are owed do get paid as they should.

Exactly. People are upset. They obviously have a very good reason to be. Neil is trying to communicate here with the people. Which is a lot more than many people would do in his situation. I'm honestly surprised he's still here given some of the posts. If you guys want him to bail from staying in contact with you here, keep up with the "I'd never in a million years get near this guy for anything" comments. J

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Wow. Thread effectively buried.

Deliberately so....makes you go hmmm. What was the point of burying this topic?
:lmao:Joe and Jason insist that they have no reason to give Neil or the AFFL any favorable treatment. I take them at their word. But, this move is perplexing and uncomfortable.
Here's a guess of a timeline-Joe and Co give people a forum to voice their complaint.Some doAFFL dude uses it to explain his side which involves a naive inexperienced business mistake by a supposed experienced businessmanpeople recognize it and barkSome start to turn it into a "well mine's bigger than yours" contestso AFFL dude pretends his FF software is more valuable than the software to arm a nuclear missileNothing changes from this point, he did state by a certain date, but people get impatient and jittery and wonder what's going on, leading to pointless bumps and pointless discussionJoe and Jason do their best "calm down" routine(knowing that nothing is to be gained by name calling and insults but only from a genuine discussion) and people get hissy with themPeople get more hissy and turn the venom away from AFFL dude and onto questioning these FBGs integrityAs the thread has turned ugly, AFFL dude (who was glad to have the opportunity to discuss this originally) now is probably grumpy with Joe and Co for providing a forum to beat him up in.Joe's in a spot now, the thread is not the same as it was when it started.He wants to transfer it to the "leave me the F out of it" forum but Memphis hasn't set that up yetJust a guess
Hi Bri,I will say you're right on the trying to calm down thing as nothing can be gained from name calling. We always are on that page. But I really don't feel to be in any "spot" as I truly am in the "leave me out of it" position as I don't have a dog in the fight. And honestly for all I care, this can be the most viewed page on our site today. Makes no difference to me. My only concern for the boards was that it was in the right forum. I don't know that this is the right forum exactly but I know the Shark Pool is the wrong forum. I continue to hope something good happens and the guys that are owed money will get it. Hopefully this thread can help.J
Joe,In about ten years of going to online forums of various sorts, you're one of the two finest admins I've ever run across and the others aren't close. You and your staff run a phenomenal shop here that we've obviously been around for years. You say you or FBG has no stake or interests in this, that is all I need to hear and I don't second guess for a minute, this place is the goods and a great place as I've said to you in threads and in PM more than once. I really appreciate all you guys have done through the years, and hopefully continue to do. And I'm not suggesting any conspiracies or otherwise silly agendas in regard to any of this. That said, I'm left wondering why of all the things we have a go at on this forum, we are somehow verboten from insulting or otherwise commenting outside of an investigative streak with this. I totally understand the "why" perhaps in this thread, if we want to streamline this, fine. But why were the FFA threads, where perhaps we could have joked around about this purged? I know you have a big staff, so you may not be the person to ask, but these were not locked, they were wiped off the map? At the very least, this guy is worthy of having a laugh at with his awful explanations, and at the very worst, there is an air of permanence to his money "delay". I started a thread that was purged, and I think this was worthy of being seen by more people. I won't speculate as to why it was kept out of the FFA, and I won't look to send more people here, your house, your rules. But I just figured I'd throw my hat in here as an old timer who goes back with you to cheatsheets.net and Big Yellow, that this doesn't really feel right. You say you aren't protecting this guy by purging posts and threads or moving this to FBG Siberia, but I'm sure you can understand how that perception would exist. I would have rather seen the whole thread bite the dust than to let selective information filter out. The thing of it is, I truly believe there is no ulterior motives at play here, so let us tear this guy apart SOMEWHERE! He's really not deserving of the kid gloves, and this is very relevant fantasy football news. NY/NJ

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Wow. Thread effectively buried.

Deliberately so....makes you go hmmm. What was the point of burying this topic?
:shock:Joe and Jason insist that they have no reason to give Neil or the AFFL any favorable treatment. I take them at their word. But, this move is perplexing and uncomfortable.
Here's a guess of a timeline-Joe and Co give people a forum to voice their complaint.Some doAFFL dude uses it to explain his side which involves a naive inexperienced business mistake by a supposed experienced businessmanpeople recognize it and barkSome start to turn it into a "well mine's bigger than yours" contestso AFFL dude pretends his FF software is more valuable than the software to arm a nuclear missileNothing changes from this point, he did state by a certain date, but people get impatient and jittery and wonder what's going on, leading to pointless bumps and pointless discussionJoe and Jason do their best "calm down" routine(knowing that nothing is to be gained by name calling and insults but only from a genuine discussion) and people get hissy with themPeople get more hissy and turn the venom away from AFFL dude and onto questioning these FBGs integrityAs the thread has turned ugly, AFFL dude (who was glad to have the opportunity to discuss this originally) now is probably grumpy with Joe and Co for providing a forum to beat him up in.Joe's in a spot now, the thread is not the same as it was when it started.He wants to transfer it to the "leave me the F out of it" forum but Memphis hasn't set that up yetJust a guess
Hi Bri,I will say you're right on the trying to calm down thing as nothing can be gained from name calling. We always are on that page. But I really don't feel to be in any "spot" as I truly am in the "leave me out of it" position as I don't have a dog in the fight. And honestly for all I care, this can be the most viewed page on our site today. Makes no difference to me. My only concern for the boards was that it was in the right forum. I don't know that this is the right forum exactly but I know the Shark Pool is the wrong forum. I continue to hope something good happens and the guys that are owed money will get it. Hopefully this thread can help.J
Joe,In about ten years of going to online forums of various sorts, you're one of the two finest admins I've ever run across and the others aren't close. You and your staff run a phenomenal shop here that we've obviously been around for years. You say you or FBG has no stake or interests in this, that is all I need to hear and I don't second guess for a minute, this place is the goods and a great place as I've said to you in threads and in PM more than once. I really appreciate all you guys have done through the years, and hopefully continue to do. And I'm not suggesting any conspiracies or otherwise silly agendas in regard to any of this. That said, I'm left wondering why of all the things we have a go at on this forum, we are somehow verboten from insulting or otherwise commenting outside of an investigative streak with this. I totally understand the "why" perhaps in this thread, if we want to streamline this, fine. But why were the FFA threads, where perhaps we could have joked around about this purged? I know you have a big staff, so you may not be the person to ask, but these were not locked, they were wiped off the map? At the very least, this guy is worthy of having a laugh at with his awful explanations, and at the very worst, there is an air of permanence to his money "delay". I started a thread that was purged, and I think this was worthy of being seen by more people. I won't speculate as to why it was kept out of the FFA, and I won't look to send more people here, your house, your rules. But I just figured I'd throw my hat in here as an old timer who goes back with you to cheatsheets.net and Big Yellow, that this doesn't really feel right. You say you aren't protecting this guy by purging posts and threads or moving this to FBG Siberia, but I'm sure you can understand how that perception would exist. I would have rather seen the whole thread bite the dust than to let selective information filter out. The thing of it is, I truly believe there is no ulterior motives at play here, so let us tear this guy apart SOMEWHERE! He's really not deserving of the kid gloves, and this is very relevant fantasy football news. NY/NJ
Hi NY/NJI didn't see your thread that got deleted but just looked it up in the purged thread file. I guess the mod thought it was more of a :confused: at the :tfp: type thing. I can see that as this is a serious thing with real people out real money and it'd be best to keep it focused on a positive resolution not anything else.Thanks for the good words though. I too am hoping for a great resolution here.J

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disclaimer : I did not lose any money.

Let's give affl some time to get things sorted out and see what comes of it. I don't think that being "un-excellent" with harsh words will actually help in resolving this. It only serves to escalate emotions. You have to give Neil some credit for staying in touch here. Jeff Pester from Turfwar has been AWOL for months!

I do hope that all who are owed do get paid as they should.

Exactly. People are upset. They obviously have a very good reason to be. Neil is trying to communicate here with the people. Which is a lot more than many people would do in his situation. I'm honestly surprised he's still here given some of the posts. If you guys want him to bail from staying in contact with you here, keep up with the "I'd never in a million years get near this guy for anything" comments.

J

Joe, I don't think anyone really cares so much about what he says at this point, but more about what he does. He came in here today and, instead of detailing the plan and the options that are available to him, he minimized the issue by, essentially, comparing his situation to an everyday Joe Bryant being a few days late on an electric bill.

Well.

That's a fascinating perspective. It doesn't register much confidence that he is attuned to his audience. That, combined with the wholloping 2007 budgetary mistakes doesn't exactly instill much confidence in most of us, I would surmise, that being a part of AFFL would give one a warm, fuzzy feeling.

Joe, you're a nice guy, and you're being a nice guy here, and I wouldn't expect anything other than that from you. You are clearly impressed with Neil's communicae on this issue, and I respect that you think highly of this tack. From Day 1 (yesterday), you've given him the benefit of the doubt (i.e., unilaterally changing the title to soften the verbiage from "reneg" to "delay," moving this thread to the least visible place on the FBG universe, etc.). So, it's understood--or at least assumed--that there may be a shared "brotherhood" with a fellow fantasy football entrepreneur with whom you may have many shared experiences, even if you don't actually know one-another.

I think for the rest of us, we're cynical and in a wait-and-see-mode. Neil can come on all he wants and apologize and make promises and tell us it's not that big of a deal (or, as he says, "put in perspective"). But, most of us are waiting to see the actual results and applaud the day when he can say he made 100% of his payout commitments. I hope you will continue to share with us the same latitude to take this approach as you have afforded AFFL, in this regard.

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Wow. Thread effectively buried.

Deliberately so....makes you go hmmm. What was the point of burying this topic?
:loco:Joe and Jason insist that they have no reason to give Neil or the AFFL any favorable treatment. I take them at their word. But, this move is perplexing and uncomfortable.
Here's a guess of a timeline-Joe and Co give people a forum to voice their complaint.Some doAFFL dude uses it to explain his side which involves a naive inexperienced business mistake by a supposed experienced businessmanpeople recognize it and barkSome start to turn it into a "well mine's bigger than yours" contestso AFFL dude pretends his FF software is more valuable than the software to arm a nuclear missileNothing changes from this point, he did state by a certain date, but people get impatient and jittery and wonder what's going on, leading to pointless bumps and pointless discussionJoe and Jason do their best "calm down" routine(knowing that nothing is to be gained by name calling and insults but only from a genuine discussion) and people get hissy with themPeople get more hissy and turn the venom away from AFFL dude and onto questioning these FBGs integrityAs the thread has turned ugly, AFFL dude (who was glad to have the opportunity to discuss this originally) now is probably grumpy with Joe and Co for providing a forum to beat him up in.Joe's in a spot now, the thread is not the same as it was when it started.He wants to transfer it to the "leave me the F out of it" forum but Memphis hasn't set that up yetJust a guess
Hi Bri,I will say you're right on the trying to calm down thing as nothing can be gained from name calling. We always are on that page. But I really don't feel to be in any "spot" as I truly am in the "leave me out of it" position as I don't have a dog in the fight. And honestly for all I care, this can be the most viewed page on our site today. Makes no difference to me. My only concern for the boards was that it was in the right forum. I don't know that this is the right forum exactly but I know the Shark Pool is the wrong forum. I continue to hope something good happens and the guys that are owed money will get it. Hopefully this thread can help.J
Joe,In about ten years of going to online forums of various sorts, you're one of the two finest admins I've ever run across and the others aren't close. You and your staff run a phenomenal shop here that we've obviously been around for years. You say you or FBG has no stake or interests in this, that is all I need to hear and I don't second guess for a minute, this place is the goods and a great place as I've said to you in threads and in PM more than once. I really appreciate all you guys have done through the years, and hopefully continue to do. And I'm not suggesting any conspiracies or otherwise silly agendas in regard to any of this. That said, I'm left wondering why of all the things we have a go at on this forum, we are somehow verboten from insulting or otherwise commenting outside of an investigative streak with this. I totally understand the "why" perhaps in this thread, if we want to streamline this, fine. But why were the FFA threads, where perhaps we could have joked around about this purged? I know you have a big staff, so you may not be the person to ask, but these were not locked, they were wiped off the map? At the very least, this guy is worthy of having a laugh at with his awful explanations, and at the very worst, there is an air of permanence to his money "delay". I started a thread that was purged, and I think this was worthy of being seen by more people. I won't speculate as to why it was kept out of the FFA, and I won't look to send more people here, your house, your rules. But I just figured I'd throw my hat in here as an old timer who goes back with you to cheatsheets.net and Big Yellow, that this doesn't really feel right. You say you aren't protecting this guy by purging posts and threads or moving this to FBG Siberia, but I'm sure you can understand how that perception would exist. I would have rather seen the whole thread bite the dust than to let selective information filter out. The thing of it is, I truly believe there is no ulterior motives at play here, so let us tear this guy apart SOMEWHERE! He's really not deserving of the kid gloves, and this is very relevant fantasy football news. NY/NJ
As always.... :lmao:

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disclaimer : I did not lose any money.

Let's give affl some time to get things sorted out and see what comes of it. I don't think that being "un-excellent" with harsh words will actually help in resolving this. It only serves to escalate emotions. You have to give Neil some credit for staying in touch here. Jeff Pester from Turfwar has been AWOL for months!

I do hope that all who are owed do get paid as they should.

Exactly. People are upset. They obviously have a very good reason to be. Neil is trying to communicate here with the people. Which is a lot more than many people would do in his situation. I'm honestly surprised he's still here given some of the posts. If you guys want him to bail from staying in contact with you here, keep up with the "I'd never in a million years get near this guy for anything" comments.

J

Joe, I don't think anyone really cares so much about what he says at this point, but more about what he does. He came in here today and, instead of detailing the plan and the options that are available to him, he minimized the issue by, essentially, comparing his situation to an everyday Joe Bryant being a few days late on an electric bill.

Well.

That's a fascinating perspective. It doesn't register much confidence that he is attuned to his audience. That, combined with the wholloping 2007 budgetary mistakes doesn't exactly instill much confidence in most of us, I would surmise, that being a part of AFFL would give one a warm, fuzzy feeling.

Joe, you're a nice guy, and you're being a nice guy here, and I wouldn't expect anything other than that from you. You are clearly impressed with Neil's communicae on this issue, and I respect that you think highly of this tack. From Day 1 (yesterday), you've given him the benefit of the doubt (i.e., unilaterally changing the title to soften the verbiage from "reneg" to "delay," moving this thread to the least visible place on the FBG universe, etc.). So, it's understood--or at least assumed--that there may be a shared "brotherhood" with a fellow fantasy football entrepreneur with whom you may have many shared experiences, even if you don't actually know one-another.

I think for the rest of us, we're cynical and in a wait-and-see-mode. Neil can come on all he wants and apologize and make promises and tell us it's not that big of a deal (or, as he says, "put in perspective"). But, most of us are waiting to see the actual results and applaud the day when he can say he made 100% of his payout commitments. I hope you will continue to share with us the same latitude to take this approach as you have afforded AFFL, in this regard.

Hi Cobalt,

No real "brotherhood" at all. I have never communicated with the guy at all until today when he sent me a PM saying simply that he was sorry for all of the negative criticism that I got over the issue. And that he said it should not impact us at all as we hadn't done anything.

I will totally admit I am pulling for him to pay everyone. In that respect, I'm cheering for him in a huge way. I think everyone is. Mostly of course because I know there are Footballguys that are owed money. I feel a connection to them and I hate for them to be out money. Like many of you feel.

He doesn't owe me a penny, but I would say I have a vested interest as well in that it's bad for the Fantasy Football industry if people aren't paid. It's just a negative overall vibe that all of us would feel. So I would say outside of the guys that are owed real money, I'm hoping he pays out everything more than just about anyone here.

With all that said, you're right in that actions talk. Not words.

All I'm saying is that right now, given what we know, I think the best way for these guys to get their money is to keep this discussion going in a positive direction. I've seen how this can play out. When this discussion starts getting into personal insults or threats or crazy stuff, then we'll see the guy that owes money disappear and then we'll have very little if any information to go on. I've seen it repeatedly over the years with creditors. The threats and zinger insults are cool for fun stories and movies. But in real life, it's best to work this out in a positive discussion in my opinion.

I hope it doesn't get to that, but there's a time for threats and forcing someone into bankruptcy and all that. I don't think we're there yet.

J

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disclaimer : I did not lose any money.

Let's give affl some time to get things sorted out and see what comes of it. I don't think that being "un-excellent" with harsh words will actually help in resolving this. It only serves to escalate emotions. You have to give Neil some credit for staying in touch here. Jeff Pester from Turfwar has been AWOL for months!

I do hope that all who are owed do get paid as they should.

Exactly. People are upset. They obviously have a very good reason to be. Neil is trying to communicate here with the people. Which is a lot more than many people would do in his situation. I'm honestly surprised he's still here given some of the posts. If you guys want him to bail from staying in contact with you here, keep up with the "I'd never in a million years get near this guy for anything" comments.

J

Joe, I don't think anyone really cares so much about what he says at this point, but more about what he does. He came in here today and, instead of detailing the plan and the options that are available to him, he minimized the issue by, essentially, comparing his situation to an everyday Joe Bryant being a few days late on an electric bill.

Well.

That's a fascinating perspective. It doesn't register much confidence that he is attuned to his audience. That, combined with the wholloping 2007 budgetary mistakes doesn't exactly instill much confidence in most of us, I would surmise, that being a part of AFFL would give one a warm, fuzzy feeling.

Joe, you're a nice guy, and you're being a nice guy here, and I wouldn't expect anything other than that from you. You are clearly impressed with Neil's communicae on this issue, and I respect that you think highly of this tack. From Day 1 (yesterday), you've given him the benefit of the doubt (i.e., unilaterally changing the title to soften the verbiage from "reneg" to "delay," moving this thread to the least visible place on the FBG universe, etc.). So, it's understood--or at least assumed--that there may be a shared "brotherhood" with a fellow fantasy football entrepreneur with whom you may have many shared experiences, even if you don't actually know one-another.

I think for the rest of us, we're cynical and in a wait-and-see-mode. Neil can come on all he wants and apologize and make promises and tell us it's not that big of a deal (or, as he says, "put in perspective"). But, most of us are waiting to see the actual results and applaud the day when he can say he made 100% of his payout commitments. I hope you will continue to share with us the same latitude to take this approach as you have afforded AFFL, in this regard.

Hi Cobalt,

No real "brotherhood" at all. I have never communicated with the guy at all until today when he sent me a PM saying simply that he was sorry for all of the negative criticism that I got over the issue. And that he said it should not impact us at all as we hadn't done anything.

I will totally admit I am pulling for him to pay everyone. In that respect, I'm cheering for him in a huge way. I think everyone is. Mostly of course because I know there are Footballguys that are owed money. I feel a connection to them and I hate for them to be out money. Like many of you feel.

He doesn't owe me a penny, but I would say I have a vested interest as well in that it's bad for the Fantasy Football industry if people aren't paid. It's just a negative overall vibe that all of us would feel. So I would say outside of the guys that are owed real money, I'm hoping he pays out everything more than just about anyone here.

With all that said, you're right in that actions talk. Not words.

All I'm saying is that right now, given what we know, I think the best way for these guys to get their money is to keep this discussion going in a positive direction. I've seen how this can play out. When this discussion starts getting into personal insults or threats or crazy stuff, then we'll see the guy that owes money disappear and then we'll have very little if any information to go on. I've seen it repeatedly over the years with creditors. The threats and zinger insults are cool for fun stories and movies. But in real life, it's best to work this out in a positive discussion in my opinion.

I hope it doesn't get to that, but there's a time for threats and forcing someone into bankruptcy and all that. I don't think we're there yet.

J

:thumbup:

This is why you're paid the big bucks, Joe.

I, too, appreciate Neil's efforts here. I surmise, however, that there are more effective ways and less effective ways of communicating situations like this to customers (past, present, future). And, it is my view--and perhaps only my view--that the *only* effective stance at this point is to be (a) apologetic beyond belief, (b) clear about the plan, and (c.) available to listen to the chirping, empathetic to (and understanding of) those concerns, and at no point EVER minimize the frustration(s) people feel. There has to be a willingness and patience to stand before the masses and take the legitimate--not personal, but legitimate--criticisms and demonstrate that you're invested in their frustrations and will do anything/everything to correct the problem.

I've seen a mixed picture out of AFFL, in this regard, thus far. I think it's ok to communicate that on some level.

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disclaimer : I did not lose any money.

Let's give affl some time to get things sorted out and see what comes of it. I don't think that being "un-excellent" with harsh words will actually help in resolving this. It only serves to escalate emotions. You have to give Neil some credit for staying in touch here. Jeff Pester from Turfwar has been AWOL for months!

I do hope that all who are owed do get paid as they should.

Exactly. People are upset. They obviously have a very good reason to be. Neil is trying to communicate here with the people. Which is a lot more than many people would do in his situation. I'm honestly surprised he's still here given some of the posts. If you guys want him to bail from staying in contact with you here, keep up with the "I'd never in a million years get near this guy for anything" comments.

J

Joe, I don't think anyone really cares so much about what he says at this point, but more about what he does. He came in here today and, instead of detailing the plan and the options that are available to him, he minimized the issue by, essentially, comparing his situation to an everyday Joe Bryant being a few days late on an electric bill.

Well.

That's a fascinating perspective. It doesn't register much confidence that he is attuned to his audience. That, combined with the wholloping 2007 budgetary mistakes doesn't exactly instill much confidence in most of us, I would surmise, that being a part of AFFL would give one a warm, fuzzy feeling.

Joe, you're a nice guy, and you're being a nice guy here, and I wouldn't expect anything other than that from you. You are clearly impressed with Neil's communicae on this issue, and I respect that you think highly of this tack. From Day 1 (yesterday), you've given him the benefit of the doubt (i.e., unilaterally changing the title to soften the verbiage from "reneg" to "delay," moving this thread to the least visible place on the FBG universe, etc.). So, it's understood--or at least assumed--that there may be a shared "brotherhood" with a fellow fantasy football entrepreneur with whom you may have many shared experiences, even if you don't actually know one-another.

I think for the rest of us, we're cynical and in a wait-and-see-mode. Neil can come on all he wants and apologize and make promises and tell us it's not that big of a deal (or, as he says, "put in perspective"). But, most of us are waiting to see the actual results and applaud the day when he can say he made 100% of his payout commitments. I hope you will continue to share with us the same latitude to take this approach as you have afforded AFFL, in this regard.

Hi Cobalt,

No real "brotherhood" at all. I have never communicated with the guy at all until today when he sent me a PM saying simply that he was sorry for all of the negative criticism that I got over the issue. And that he said it should not impact us at all as we hadn't done anything.

I will totally admit I am pulling for him to pay everyone. In that respect, I'm cheering for him in a huge way. I think everyone is. Mostly of course because I know there are Footballguys that are owed money. I feel a connection to them and I hate for them to be out money. Like many of you feel.

He doesn't owe me a penny, but I would say I have a vested interest as well in that it's bad for the Fantasy Football industry if people aren't paid. It's just a negative overall vibe that all of us would feel. So I would say outside of the guys that are owed real money, I'm hoping he pays out everything more than just about anyone here.

With all that said, you're right in that actions talk. Not words.

All I'm saying is that right now, given what we know, I think the best way for these guys to get their money is to keep this discussion going in a positive direction. I've seen how this can play out. When this discussion starts getting into personal insults or threats or crazy stuff, then we'll see the guy that owes money disappear and then we'll have very little if any information to go on. I've seen it repeatedly over the years with creditors. The threats and zinger insults are cool for fun stories and movies. But in real life, it's best to work this out in a positive discussion in my opinion.

I hope it doesn't get to that, but there's a time for threats and forcing someone into bankruptcy and all that. I don't think we're there yet.

J

:goodposting:

This is why you're paid the big bucks, Joe.

I, too, appreciate Neil's efforts here. I surmise, however, that there are more effective ways and less effective ways of communicating situations like this to customers (past, present, future). And, it is my view--and perhaps only my view--that the *only* effective stance at this point is to be (a) apologetic beyond belief, (b) clear about the plan, and (c.) available to listen to the chirping, empathetic to (and understanding of) those concerns, and at no point EVER minimize the frustration(s) people feel. There has to be a willingness and patience to stand before the masses and take the legitimate--not personal, but legitimate--criticisms and demonstrate that you're invested in their frustrations and will do anything/everything to correct the problem.

I've seen a mixed picture out of AFFL, in this regard, thus far. I think it's ok to communicate that on some level.

Thanks Cobalt.

What you describe is very true and that would be by far option #1 on the desirability scale for all of us.

But I think what some are not fully valuing is that what you describe is really one way to handle it.

Option #2 is very simply: Bail.

When you get past the tipping point of there being just too much crap to deal with and it'd be easier and more desirable to roll your dice with the courts, that's what people do.

And then nobody gets paid and the bankruptcy courts / lawyers can all figure it out. The only ones that benefit from that option are the attorneys involved.

Sadly, I see LOTS more of option #2 in the business world than I do option #1.

I'm sorry for sounding like a broken record but I think we all have a small part to play in keeping this headed toward Option #1.

J

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AFFL = Ponzi scam.

I'd be a lot more inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt if he had most of the money needed to pay off the winners. As it is, he has almost no money to pay anyone, which means he spent everything he had because he knew he'd be declaring bankruptcy and he didn't care one bit about the people he owes.

On the one hand, I hope the AFFL gets the financing for the sake of the winners getting paid. But on the other hand, I feel bad for any body duped into fronting this guy a lot of money, because he obviously can't be trusted with money.

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One more thing: I am not apologizing for what Bryant did in moving the thread and changing the title, let's keep the discussion focused on AFFL matters. Focusing on Bryant and Wood only helps the cause of the AFFL. And since they own the website they can do whatever they want. We should be happy that the thread was not deleted. If you think the thread deserves more attention, put a link to it in your sig.

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I just came across this thread and have been reading through all the replies and would like to address some of the things that were mentioned earlier and get a response back from Neil. I think this absolutely needs to be addressed before anyone should ever play in the AFFL again, even if they obtain their money and pay their debts.

I played in the AFFL back in 2005 and at that time, the rules were different on these large contests (this was before the new laws making fantasy football a game of skill came out). Sites could announce a grand prize, and if they didn't achieve the number of players they needed to pay out the prize, all they needed to state was that the prize was based on set number of participants and if this wasn't reached, it would be reduced by some percentage to pay out the winners.

However, after the 2006 season, when these rules changed, they made it a requirement that if a site announces a grand prize they needed to guarantee its payment regardless of how many people signed up. That was a huge change in the industry for these high stakes leagues that were out there. It should have also been a huge red flag and should have warranted a lot of precaution before continuing (will get to this more in a bit).

When I joined AFFL, back in 2005, one of the main reasons I chose this league was because it was one of the only high stakes, web-based leagues. All the other big money leagues required you to travel to the draft, and at the time I was not willing. But back in 2005 the Grand Prize for the Platinum League was $200,000. Which at the time was equal prize money as compared to the WCOFF.

And since they were based on the old laws, they did not have to pay out the entire 200,000 and only paid out somewhere in the vicinity of 40,000.

$40,000!!!!!! (They used to have the exact PY information on the site with payouts, but I have not been able to locate it recently)

In 2006, with the same laws, the payout (from the site) was only $47,459 for the platinum and $31,669 (prize was supposed to be 75,000). This is the reason why I only played for one season. I never looked at past winners until I was curious about the top prize for 2005. When I realized they only paid out around 40,000 of a 200,000 stated grand prize, I thought this was not for me and have since made the switch to WCOFF and paid the extra money for travel for the comfort of knowing the grand prize will be paid.

In 2007, the year of question, the platinum top prize was reduced to $100,000 because of the laws, but my question is this:

If since the inception of the AFFL, you have never paid out even close to your stated grand prize, let alone ever topped $100,000 to the platinum league in the past, how did you ever anticipate being able to pay a 100,000 grand prize?!?!?! (with the past 2 years alone under 50,000, and while I don't have exact figures for pre 2006, I would not expect your members to decrease since you stated that you have consistently had about 20% growth each year).

In 2006, you didn't even pay out 25% of your stated grand prize, yet somehow, you expected to increase your payout for the Platinum league by over 100%, which I can only assume that in order to achieve your goal, you would have needed over 50% growth with expenses remaining static (probably being generous here) in order to pay out your highest Platinum prize ever!

Why would you keep the prize at 100,000, when all you had to do was reduce it to 50,000...and if you obtained the players, you could up the grand prize. No problems with increasing a prize, you are simply not allowed to lower it once you have set it. Based off your PY numbers, you should have lowered Platinum, cut Gold and introduced some smaller games with high profit margins. Then, over time, you build your base and consistently increase your grand prize. You were in no position to pay out 100,000 for the Platinum Grand prize in 2007, especially if you cut a lot of your marketing like you stated earlier.

And it doesn't make sense that you would have large losses carrying over from the past or how you can have so much liability. How can you lose so much money when you are allowed to reduce the payout based on the number of contestants? Or, in better terms, how do you have 850,000 in liabilities? Since your main asset is your technology, most of the value is intangible as it in no way cost 850,000 to develop, or even close to that. And besides stat fees, marketing and payroll, there shouldn't be many other expenses since everything is done on-line. So what are you buying or borrowing that you owe money for?

And another question: Why on earth would you do this job free of salary with all the possible legal ramifications that could stem from this (especially this year when you needed seed money from the start in order to cover any guaranteed payouts)?

It simply does not make any sense whatsover, why would you put yourself at risk for no personal gain?

You should have known that once they changed the law you were in trouble (well before the 2007 season began) and the fact that you didn't do anything about it while accepting money constitutes gross negligence and fraud, and despite what you may think about bankruptcy, it has nothing to do with the charges that will be filed against you if you do not pay. And I still don't understand why? It seems like you have nothing to gain and everything to lose.

I will not make accusations or theories about what is going on, but something isn't right. If the questions above are not answered, I encourage all FBG who play in AFFL to switch to WCOFF or NFFL or RotoBowl. Cause now, if there isn't something fishy going on, it is simply bad business, poor management, and gross negligence, and while I do not want to see the industry suffer, I think there needs to be repurcussions to deter all the average joes from trying to start up a fantasy business promising huge payouts if they are allowed to mismanage this much money. I think you should have been paying yourself Neil, at least then, right or wrong, it would have been worth something.

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I just came across this thread and have been reading through all the replies and would like to address some of the things that were mentioned earlier and get a response back from Neil. I think this absolutely needs to be addressed before anyone should ever play in the AFFL again, even if they obtain their money and pay their debts.I played in the AFFL back in 2005 and at that time, the rules were different on these large contests (this was before the new laws making fantasy football a game of skill came out). Sites could announce a grand prize, and if they didn't achieve the number of players they needed to pay out the prize, all they needed to state was that the prize was based on set number of participants and if this wasn't reached, it would be reduced by some percentage to pay out the winners. However, after the 2006 season, when these rules changed, they made it a requirement that if a site announces a grand prize they needed to guarantee its payment regardless of how many people signed up. That was a huge change in the industry for these high stakes leagues that were out there. It should have also been a huge red flag and should have warranted a lot of precaution before continuing (will get to this more in a bit).When I joined AFFL, back in 2005, one of the main reasons I chose this league was because it was one of the only high stakes, web-based leagues. All the other big money leagues required you to travel to the draft, and at the time I was not willing. But back in 2005 the Grand Prize for the Platinum League was $200,000. Which at the time was equal prize money as compared to the WCOFF.And since they were based on the old laws, they did not have to pay out the entire 200,000 and only paid out somewhere in the vicinity of 40,000.$40,000!!!!!! (They used to have the exact PY information on the site with payouts, but I have not been able to locate it recently) In 2006, with the same laws, the payout (from the site) was only $47,459 for the platinum and $31,669 (prize was supposed to be 75,000). This is the reason why I only played for one season. I never looked at past winners until I was curious about the top prize for 2005. When I realized they only paid out around 40,000 of a 200,000 stated grand prize, I thought this was not for me and have since made the switch to WCOFF and paid the extra money for travel for the comfort of knowing the grand prize will be paid.In 2007, the year of question, the platinum top prize was reduced to $100,000 because of the laws, but my question is this:If since the inception of the AFFL, you have never paid out even close to your stated grand prize, let alone ever topped $100,000 to the platinum league in the past, how did you ever anticipate being able to pay a 100,000 grand prize?!?!?! (with the past 2 years alone under 50,000, and while I don't have exact figures for pre 2006, I would not expect your members to decrease since you stated that you have consistently had about 20% growth each year).In 2006, you didn't even pay out 25% of your stated grand prize, yet somehow, you expected to increase your payout for the Platinum league by over 100%, which I can only assume that in order to achieve your goal, you would have needed over 50% growth with expenses remaining static (probably being generous here) in order to pay out your highest Platinum prize ever!Why would you keep the prize at 100,000, when all you had to do was reduce it to 50,000...and if you obtained the players, you could up the grand prize. No problems with increasing a prize, you are simply not allowed to lower it once you have set it. Based off your PY numbers, you should have lowered Platinum, cut Gold and introduced some smaller games with high profit margins. Then, over time, you build your base and consistently increase your grand prize. You were in no position to pay out 100,000 for the Platinum Grand prize in 2007, especially if you cut a lot of your marketing like you stated earlier.And it doesn't make sense that you would have large losses carrying over from the past or how you can have so much liability. How can you lose so much money when you are allowed to reduce the payout based on the number of contestants? Or, in better terms, how do you have 850,000 in liabilities? Since your main asset is your technology, most of the value is intangible as it in no way cost 850,000 to develop, or even close to that. And besides stat fees, marketing and payroll, there shouldn't be many other expenses since everything is done on-line. So what are you buying or borrowing that you owe money for?And another question: Why on earth would you do this job free of salary with all the possible legal ramifications that could stem from this (especially this year when you needed seed money from the start in order to cover any guaranteed payouts)? It simply does not make any sense whatsover, why would you put yourself at risk for no personal gain?You should have known that once they changed the law you were in trouble (well before the 2007 season began) and the fact that you didn't do anything about it while accepting money constitutes gross negligence and fraud, and despite what you may think about bankruptcy, it has nothing to do with the charges that will be filed against you if you do not pay. And I still don't understand why? It seems like you have nothing to gain and everything to lose.I will not make accusations or theories about what is going on, but something isn't right. If the questions above are not answered, I encourage all FBG who play in AFFL to switch to WCOFF or NFFL or RotoBowl. Cause now, if there isn't something fishy going on, it is simply bad business, poor management, and gross negligence, and while I do not want to see the industry suffer, I think there needs to be repurcussions to deter all the average joes from trying to start up a fantasy business promising huge payouts if they are allowed to mismanage this much money. I think you should have been paying yourself Neil, at least then, right or wrong, it would have been worth something.

:yes: Umm...wow.Phenomenal posting. I mean...sensible, anecdotal, historical. I will look forward to Neil's eloquent and comprehensive response when it comes around, because these are excellent and pertinent questions for him to address.

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Bootster,

You are correct. Prior to the Port Act, we did adjust prizes based on entries. This action was very common in the industry at that time.

I will answer the questions regarding the budget numbers and how we selected prizes for 2007 at a later date.

As for why I haven't taken a salary, it really came down to money. The business could not support me, and I could not fill the technical requirements for us not to have a full time DBA on staff. I delayed my compensation to future years.

Our software has a recreation cost of $850,000 to $875,000. Of the $850,000 in current liabilities, $475,000 is from 2007 prizes.

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We all know how difficult it is to take home a league title, much less the overall prize in a league like this.

Given the recent questions on this contest, I recall that

the person who won their overall Gold league in 2005 (16,000) also won both their overall Gold AND Silver leagues (71,000 combined). At the time, the AFFL guys said this was the greatest fantasy football accomplishment of all time. hmmm..

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:lmao: to placing this thread here.

I have no ill will towards AFFL nor the participants that were effected. In fact, I genuinely hope it all works out to everyone's satisfaction.

That said, sounds an awful lot like Carlo Ponzi, 2007 version.

But the fact is I do play FF at other sites, and I would like to know about this sort of deal beforehand. The only reason I even came upon this thread is Team Legacy started a thread in the FFA, where the name of the site wasn't even mentioned. This sort of thing should be brought to the forefront, not buried in a "Looking for Leagues" forum.

And big :rolleyes: to FBG staff for burying it here. Looks like there's been a pretty upfront and honest discussion here. Should be pinned at the very least, imo.

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Bootster,You are correct. Prior to the Port Act, we did adjust prizes based on entries. This action was very common in the industry, and even NFFC did it their first year.I will answer the questions regarding the budget numbers and how we selected prizes for 2007 at a later date.As for why I haven't taken a salary, it really came down to money. The business could not support me, and I could not fill the technical requirements for us not to have a full time DBA on staff. I delayed my compensation to future years.Our software has a recreation cost of $850,000 to $875,000. Of the $850,000 in current liabilities, $475,000 is from 2007 prizes.

Is recreation cost different from regular 'ol run of the mill cost? If so, could you explain the difference?

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