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How much Voter Fraud is Happening (1 Viewer)

Which is worse / which is MORE UNJUST?

  • An illegitimate vote being counted

    Votes: 73 27.4%

  • A legitimate vote not being counted

    Votes: 193 72.6%
  • Total voters
    266
Stealthycat said:
I've often wondered why felons lose their rights for life .... they paid their dues, did their time and what they did normally follows them anyway

why take Constitutional Rights after they're out ?
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Really?  It seems pretty clear if you step back and look at the demographics.  

ETA:  Nevermind...stupid HF beat me to it :bag:  

 
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tommyGunZ said:
Because conservatives don’t want black people to vote.  
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uh ... historically, that's the Democrats ... they were the slave owners, the KKK, the Jim Crow's, the ones fighting against equality and last election, Democrats put two rich whites up for nomination, Republicans had 2 hispanic's and a black guy ..... I know the left tells the lies over and over, but facts don't support it

 
Henry Ford said:
You should probably think about those states before you draw that conclusion. 
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can't ever have enough voters in your favor plus if felons get their voting right back in one state, it snowballs to other states etc

I assure you this isn't about treating people fair, there is an agenda, always is

 
Stealthycat said:
uh ... historically, that's the Democrats ... they were the slave owners, the KKK, the Jim Crow's, the ones fighting against equality and last election, Democrats put two rich whites up for nomination, Republicans had 2 hispanic's and a black guy ..... I know the left tells the lies over and over, but facts don't support it
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Historically, it's been conservatives.  Whether they called themselves democrats or republicans at the time matters little. 

 
Stealthycat said:
The Commish said:
Really?  It seems pretty clear if you step back and look at the demographics.  

ETA:  Nevermind...stupid HF beat me to it :bag:  
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the laws don't make people break them ....... people break them
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wut?  You said you have often wondered why felons lose their right to vote permanently.  I told you it seemed rather obvious why that's the case if you step back and look at the demographics behind those that make up "felons".  What does this comment have to do with any of that?  A comment I don't disagree with, but doesn't fit the conversation in any way that I can see.

ETA:  And to be crystal clear, I agree with you that loss of voting rights should not be permanent for felons.  I plan on supporting the amendment reversing that here in FL this Nov.  It needs to be reversed and voting rights need to be restored to those who have paid their debt to society.

 
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The problem with felon disenfranchisement is that the states make arbitrary decisions as to which types of felons are allowed to vote or not. In Alabama, for example, people who are convicted of actual voter fraud would not lose their right to vote, because Alabama does not consider voter fraud to be an immoral crime.

 
The Commish said:
wut?  You said you have often wondered why felons lose their right to vote permanently.  I told you it seemed rather obvious why that's the case if you step back and look at the demographics behind those that make up "felons".  What does this comment have to do with any of that?  A comment I don't disagree with, but doesn't fit the conversation in any way that I can see.
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you are inferring the loss of voting rights that comes with felonies was enacted to keep blacks from voting - right ?

it doesn't - it targets anyone who's committing felonies equally and fairly, all colors of skin, height, weight, gender, hair color etc

 
Stealthycat said:
The Commish said:
wut?  You said you have often wondered why felons lose their right to vote permanently.  I told you it seemed rather obvious why that's the case if you step back and look at the demographics behind those that make up "felons".  What does this comment have to do with any of that?  A comment I don't disagree with, but doesn't fit the conversation in any way that I can see.
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you are inferring the loss of voting rights that comes with felonies was enacted to keep blacks from voting - right ?

it doesn't - it targets anyone who's committing felonies equally and fairly, all colors of skin, height, weight, gender, hair color etc
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I asked you to go look at the demographics.  I inferred nothing, though it's interesting you jump right to race.  So.....why don't you go look at the demographics and see if you can connect the dots.

 
I don't care who broke the law or what skin color they have, how tall or short they all, how thin or heavy or what gender. Neither did the people who passed the laws saying felons shouldn't own guns, vote etc IMO. Of course I jumped right to race, it was inferred .... or am I wrong there ?

You cannot predict who's going to commit crimes can you?

 
Stealthycat said:
I don't care who broke the law or what skin color they have, how tall or short they all, how thin or heavy or what gender. Neither did the people who passed the laws saying felons shouldn't own guns, vote etc IMO. Of course I jumped right to race, it was inferred .... or am I wrong there ?

You cannot predict who's going to commit crimes can you?
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I asked you to look at the demographics.  You know what demographics are right?  Race is one of thousands, yet that's where YOU went.  My comment made it no more/less likely that I was talking about race, sex, age, socioeconomic status.  Just own it :shrug:

I will also say I have no idea what the law makers "cared about" when making the law.  I'm not sure how you do to make your opinion read like a fact.

Finally, predict?  No...we can't see the future, but we CAN make an incredibly well informed, educated guess based on the data.

 
Judge deserved more than probation after trying to rig election

BY THE STAR-TELEGRAM EDITORIAL BOARD

April 24, 2018 05:32 PM

Updated 44 minutes ago

Former Justice of the Peace Russ Casey walked out of a Tarrant County courthouse this week with a gift: He got a five-year, probated sentence after consciously trying to manipulate the electoral process.

Casey's plea deal looks even sweeter when compared to two other election fraud cases recently prosecuted by the Tarrant County District Attorney's office. In those two cases confused — or at the very least misguided — women got prison sentences for voting violations.

Forcing Casey to surrender his office — and his $126,000 salary — may be seen as a just penalty.

It's not enough.

This Editorial Board thinks prosecutors and the public need to ask themselves if the scales of justice are out of balance. It offends our sense of fair play to see this kind of inequality. In the one case where an election was in real jeopardy, the guilty guy skates.

Let's look at the cases.

Casey was accused of forging dozens of signatures on petitions needed to get his name placed on the March 6 primary ballot. Casey, who represented Precinct 3 in Northeast Tarrant County, eventually withdrew his candidacy after the forgery allegations were made.On Monday, Casey pleaded guilty to tampering with a government document and was sentenced to two years in jail, only to see his sentence probated in a plea deal.

Last month, Crystal Mason didn't get such a soft landing. A judge sentenced Mason to five years in prison because, as a felon she was prohibited from voting in the 2016 presidential election. She was on supervised release after a 2011 conviction for filing false federal tax returns. Mason claims she didn't know it was illegal for her to vote and it wasn't made clear at the polling place.

Last year, Rosa Maria Ortega got eight years in prison for illegally voting. Born in Mexico, but a longtime U.S. resident and green-card holder, Ortega said she didn't know she couldn't vote. She had received a voter card in Dallas County. But, after moving to Tarrant County, she tried to register to vote and was arrested for voter fraud.

Both women are appealing their convictions.

Tarrant County District Attorney Sharen Wilson's office defends its handling of the three cases by saying all of the defendants were offered probated sentences, but that Mason and Ortega declined to take the deals. Casey did, so he walks.

But if the district attorney is really interested in polling place purity, she shouldn't have offered Casey probation in the first place. Unlike Mason and Ortega, he knowingly committed a crime each time he wrote in someone else's name on the petition.

"I think it is a despicable state of affairs when such disparities can take place," said Clark Birdsall, the attorney who represented Ortega. "This JP clearly put his own interest above others and every time he forged a signature he made a decision to break the law.

There is a need to protect the election process. Spend more money on protecting our election machines from being hacked. Crack down on shady operators working to steal votes through absentee ballots. Better safeguard the voter registration process.

Casey walked out of the courthouse Monday after receiving a good deal. If anyone deserved some time behind bars he did. He tried to rig the system, the women didn't.

 
The irony is not lost on me. Kris Kobach has built his entire fame on making false and wild accusations about voter “fraud.” And now in the trial to determine the veracity of any of his claims, he has exposed himself as a fraud of a lawyer, over and over again. If “karma” is a thing, this is what the ##### looks like.

The trial has already been an idiotic embarrassment for Kobach. He decided to represent himself (really his office) in an action brought by the ACLU over Kobach’s attempts to toughen voter ID laws. The court is trying to find Kobach’s evidence of “fraud” that he says justifies enhanced ID laws. He doesn’t have any, and the trial has already been termed a rebuke of Kobach’s life’s work.

And that was before today. Today, Huffington Post voting rights reporter Sam Levine found this:

Kansas Secretary of State Kris Kobach and his lawyers appear to have forgotten to delete a section of a document they filed in federal court that a point of law "probably isn't worth arguing."

I will pause for righteous, judgmental laughter.

Now, this is the kind of gaffe that the non-lawyer press will have a field day with, because it’s HILARIOUS and easy to understand. But, you know, anybody who has worked on a brief knows that one often makes points “PROBABLY NOT WORTH ARGUING.” You kind of throw everything at the wall and hope something sticks. And you should really read Sam Levine’s full document dump of a thread, because the arguments Kobach and his team decided were worth making are just as bad and faulty and laughable as the one they weren’t sure about.

I don’t have any defense for Kobach and his team leaving in the word “CITE” in the above section. I mean… that just makes it look like they have no idea what they’re doing.

But what the gaffe does reveal is an inherent sloppiness to Kobach’s work. And that isa material concern here. Remember Kobach is trying to make it harder for people to vote. It’s the most important right we have in a democracy, and Kobach wants to raise the barriers around it for some people. Given the seriousness of the issue, the fact that Kobach and his office are sloppy lawyers who evidently can’t be bothered to double-check their own work should matter. It should mean that we take their claims and so-called evidence less seriously, as we know they are operating out of a place where details don’t matter and arguments that probably shouldn’t be made are advanced.

Kris Kobach should not have the power to make it harder for you to vote. Everything he has done in this trial proves why. He’s simply not good enough at his job to be allowed to do this.
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The judge should throw him in jail or make him do community service. "If the taxpayers are going to pay for it, then they should at least get their money's worth..."

 
fatguyinalittlecoat said:
@HellToupee

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/05/new-hampshire-investigation-by-bill-gardner-shows-widespread-voter-fraud-doesnt-exist.html?via=taps_top
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Gardner—who is nominally a Democrat, but served on Trump’s voter-fraud commission and now supports disenfranchisement measures—decided to use the tool despite all of those documented problems. In New Hampshire, Crosscheck initially flagged a whopping 94,610 individuals as possible double voters by matching first names, last names, and birthdays. Gardner’s office eliminated most of those matches by weeding out people who voted in one state and not the other, or who didn’t vote at all. That left 4,579 possible double voters, of whom 3,624 were ruled out because they had different middle names or initials. Gardner’s team whittled down the remaining 955 names to 142 possible matches by examining Social Security numbers, death records, post-office data, and other publicly available information. His office referred 51 of those cases to the attorney general and will continue to narrow down the final 91—partly by comparing their signatures, a notoriously unreliable method.

In all, the state had found five cases of actual wrongful voting, though not all were the voters’ fault. One college student voted in the wrong location on the faulty instruction of an election official. An elderly woman appears to have filled out her recently deceased husband’s absentee ballot. Two people cast a ballot in Dixville Notch’s famous midnight primary without establishing domicile there. Just one person actually voted twice; he was fined $2,500 and threatened with criminal prosecution if he ever did it again.

 
Matthias said:
Gardner—who is nominally a Democrat, but served on Trump’s voter-fraud commission and now supports disenfranchisement measures—decided to use the tool despite all of those documented problems. In New Hampshire, Crosscheck initially flagged a whopping 94,610 individuals as possible double voters by matching first names, last names, and birthdays. Gardner’s office eliminated most of those matches by weeding out people who voted in one state and not the other, or who didn’t vote at all. That left 4,579 possible double voters, of whom 3,624 were ruled out because they had different middle names or initials. Gardner’s team whittled down the remaining 955 names to 142 possible matches by examining Social Security numbers, death records, post-office data, and other publicly available information. His office referred 51 of those cases to the attorney general and will continue to narrow down the final 91—partly by comparing their signatures, a notoriously unreliable method.

In all, the state had found five cases of actual wrongful voting, though not all were the voters’ fault. One college student voted in the wrong location on the faulty instruction of an election official. An elderly woman appears to have filled out her recently deceased husband’s absentee ballot. Two people cast a ballot in Dixville Notch’s famous midnight primary without establishing domicile there. Just one person actually voted twice; he was fined $2,500 and threatened with criminal prosecution if he ever did it again.
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Got him!

 
So what happens when the voter fraud issue is effectively dismissed and Republicans realize that they genuinely are outnumbered?

Those numbers are liable to get worse, too, my GOP friends, unless you can find issues in common with an electorate comfortable with the changing of American traditions.

 
Maurile Tremblay said:
I'm quite confident that I would not. I have no real preference, as a matter of principle, for Democrats over Republicans or vice versa, and my initial instinct (while realizing that voter ID laws are good for Republicans and bad for Democrats) was to support voter ID laws. I changed my mind based on evidence that, in present-day America, lack of access to qualifying ID is a much bigger problem, numerically, than is voter fraud. My bias is in favor of increasing legitimate voter turnout regardless of whether the marginal votes are largely from a demographic skewed toward D's or R's, and even regardless of whether they are from a demographic skewed toward ignorance. (I understand that not everyone shares that bias.)
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Regardless of who you are voting for every American of voting age should have an ID.

 
Da Guru said:
Regardless of who you are voting for every American of voting age should have an ID.
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And? Some don't. They get along just fine. No reason to not let them vote.

The voter fraud to care about is the kind the Russians which were looking at: purging voter registrations and attempting to manipulate voting data. 

 
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