Given some of your posts in here I think it's probable we'd disagree on who are the right and wrong Republicans to vote for.A good point here by Christo.Why? Illinois had a primary on Tuesday. There were several Republicans worthy of a vote. And there were several I would never vote for. Abandoning the party isn't the solution when the Democrats are the only other real option.Which is exactly why people like me have to choose for a L or I if possible or by default reluctantly vote dem.Rational and honest? Well he's not one of ours!!!
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How much Voter Fraud is Happening (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Orange Crush
- Start date
MaxThreshold
Footballguy
Sorry, BST, but i categorize you with TGunz and ToddAndrews - far left (almost Communist, actually) zealots/trolls.
MaxThreshold
Footballguy
Maybe, but you still made a good point.Given some of your posts in here I think it's probable we'd disagree on who are the right and wrong Republicans to vote for.A good point here by Christo.Why? Illinois had a primary on Tuesday. There were several Republicans worthy of a vote. And there were several I would never vote for. Abandoning the party isn't the solution when the Democrats are the only other real option.Which is exactly why people like me have to choose for a L or I if possible or by default reluctantly vote dem.
I'll use the same line that all the other lefties in these forums use in trying to appear un-biased: "I'm an independent"
Koya
Footballguy
I was a hardened liberal dem who quickly recognized that too much gov't is not a good thing in my late youth / early '20's. I became more and more libertarian and recognized the benefits of certain aspects of the Republican position. Unfortunately, that coincided with the Contract for America and the polarization of the beltway leading to the religious right holding control of the power and eventually the "don't budge on anything there is no compromise" ideology that led to the Tea Party.Why? Illinois had a primary on Tuesday. There were several Republicans worthy of a vote. And there were several I would never vote for. Abandoning the party isn't the solution when the Democrats are the only other real option.Which is exactly why people like me have to choose for a L or I if possible or by default reluctantly vote dem.
I know plenty of Republican's that I have and would vote for. But the party as a whole, when you are talking about a candidate that is in lockstep with the general Party ideology, has alienated a number of people such as myself whom are really up for grabs. While I might never be a hardened Republican as a slightly left but very libertarian voter, when the choice is between a mainstream Republican towing the party line and a Dem who might even be left of the party line, the Dem is going to get my "lesser of two evils" vote 95%+ of the time unless there is a real Independent or Libertarian option.
As I have sadly been saying for twenty years now, to oversimplify I vote Dem because the Dems might take my wallet (and waste it on gov't), but the Reps want to take my rights. I can earn more money and I can be happy without as much money, but once lost, rights are very hard, if even possible, to regain.
This pretty obvious attempt (please people, Republicans have ADMITTED it, really) to suppress the vote of those of another party/ideology is a perfect and screaming example of the bolded.
BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
Look Max, people find your stance to be CRAZY.
Sure, I bash the ever living #### of the far right whackos.... but you are CRAZY!
Right here in this thread you refuse to acknowledge the truth.
What did you have to say about .... Wayne Bertsch, who handles local and legislative races for Republicans, said he knew targeting Democrats was the goal.???
Are you just going to call him names also?
Sure, I bash the ever living #### of the far right whackos.... but you are CRAZY!
Right here in this thread you refuse to acknowledge the truth.
What did you have to say about .... Wayne Bertsch, who handles local and legislative races for Republicans, said he knew targeting Democrats was the goal.???
Are you just going to call him names also?
Koya
Footballguy
And Christo is pointing out exactly what I am trying to say. The many responsible, caring and dedicated candidates in the Republican party who believe in something but also believe in our nation's core ideology and the right of all voices to be heard equally at the ballot box get hurt because of the overwhelming slant and actions of the party at large, directed by its leadership and echoed at most all levels.Given some of your posts in here I think it's probable we'd disagree on who are the right and wrong Republicans to vote for.A good point here by Christo.Why? Illinois had a primary on Tuesday. There were several Republicans worthy of a vote. And there were several I would never vote for. Abandoning the party isn't the solution when the Democrats are the only other real option.Which is exactly why people like me have to choose for a L or I if possible or by default reluctantly vote dem.
MaxThreshold
Footballguy
C'mon, Koya, you can actually believe that the Democrats aren't taking your rights away, can you? Really? it's only the GOP?I was a hardened liberal dem who quickly recognized that too much gov't is not a good thing in my late youth / early '20's. I became more and more libertarian and recognized the benefits of certain aspects of the Republican position. Unfortunately, that coincided with the Contract for America and the polarization of the beltway leading to the religious right holding control of the power and eventually the "don't budge on anything there is no compromise" ideology that led to the Tea Party.Why? Illinois had a primary on Tuesday. There were several Republicans worthy of a vote. And there were several I would never vote for. Abandoning the party isn't the solution when the Democrats are the only other real option.Which is exactly why people like me have to choose for a L or I if possible or by default reluctantly vote dem.
I know plenty of Republican's that I have and would vote for. But the party as a whole, when you are talking about a candidate that is in lockstep with the general Party ideology, has alienated a number of people such as myself whom are really up for grabs. While I might never be a hardened Republican as a slightly left but very libertarian voter, when the choice is between a mainstream Republican towing the party line and a Dem who might even be left of the party line, the Dem is going to get my "lesser of two evils" vote 95%+ of the time unless there is a real Independent or Libertarian option.
As I have sadly been saying for twenty years now, to oversimplify I vote Dem because the Dems might take my wallet (and waste it on gov't), but the Reps want to take my rights. I can earn more money and I can be happy without as much money, but once lost, rights are very hard, if even possible, to regain.
This pretty obvious attempt (please people, Republicans have ADMITTED it, really) to suppress the vote of those of another party/ideology is a perfect and screaming example of the bolded.
Koya
Footballguy
No, when the GOP starts thinking about governing and small government in the context of being better for our nation, rather than thinking about politics and how small government is an excuse to disenfranchise those of an opposing ideology / party then they will have more appeal to me.So...just to be clear...when the GOP starts thinking like Democrats then they will have more appeal to you? Why not just continue to vote for Democrats?The Republican Party would also have far more appeal to many (myself included) if there were more thinking along these lines.proninja said:We need more politicians like this
Perhaps then, the issues I really want to see flushed out (the total governance of our nation, how we can have less government and centralized power while still ensuring rights and equality for all) would have a chance to even enter the realm of discussion, rather than worrying about a mid-term election that since the Dems will #### it up, might undo significant strides in achieving the very equality and freedom that I hold dear.
And, because of the Republicans polarized position, it allows the Dems to get that much further left, which I can't stand either. So now I have Ted Cruz wannabes who wish to deny rights to gays and not allow people who may lean Dem to vote, or Bill DeBlasio's who will patronize a big gov't machine while reaching into my pocket as Rome burns. Yay.
This is a bit of a tangent for this thread, but this line of thinking just irks me. I don't know where you live, but you probably have better odds of winning Buffett's $1 Billion for having a perfect bracket than having your vote decide an election. The "lesser of two evils" is a cop out IMO- vote for the candidate you believe in, or don't vote for any of them if you have to "hold your nose" and vote.
And Max, just put the shovel down already.
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Koya
Footballguy
As I said, it's an oversimplification. Perhaps its a bit more specific to say Civil Rights. And yes, I recognize that abuse of wealth distribution and taking my money is taking away an amount of my rights/freedom, and I also can't stand those who don't believe in the right to bear arms (although the libertarian in me still recognizes that that right does not trump the rights of others who must be protected from those who won't use guns responsibly).C'mon, Koya, you can actually believe that the Democrats aren't taking your rights away, can you? Really? it's only the GOP?I was a hardened liberal dem who quickly recognized that too much gov't is not a good thing in my late youth / early '20's. I became more and more libertarian and recognized the benefits of certain aspects of the Republican position. Unfortunately, that coincided with the Contract for America and the polarization of the beltway leading to the religious right holding control of the power and eventually the "don't budge on anything there is no compromise" ideology that led to the Tea Party.Why? Illinois had a primary on Tuesday. There were several Republicans worthy of a vote. And there were several I would never vote for. Abandoning the party isn't the solution when the Democrats are the only other real option.Which is exactly why people like me have to choose for a L or I if possible or by default reluctantly vote dem.
I know plenty of Republican's that I have and would vote for. But the party as a whole, when you are talking about a candidate that is in lockstep with the general Party ideology, has alienated a number of people such as myself whom are really up for grabs. While I might never be a hardened Republican as a slightly left but very libertarian voter, when the choice is between a mainstream Republican towing the party line and a Dem who might even be left of the party line, the Dem is going to get my "lesser of two evils" vote 95%+ of the time unless there is a real Independent or Libertarian option.
As I have sadly been saying for twenty years now, to oversimplify I vote Dem because the Dems might take my wallet (and waste it on gov't), but the Reps want to take my rights. I can earn more money and I can be happy without as much money, but once lost, rights are very hard, if even possible, to regain.
This pretty obvious attempt (please people, Republicans have ADMITTED it, really) to suppress the vote of those of another party/ideology is a perfect and screaming example of the bolded.
But at this point, the Republican party SEEMS so hell bent on denial of rights and freedoms, and honestly, appears at least to be so cold hearted and honestly, uncaring about huge sections of our population (the poor and minorities) at a 50,000 foot view, it doesn't leave folks like me much room to find any place in the party, especially for candidates that will support the current core Party and ideology.
Like I said, it's a choice between the lesser of two evils. But at this point in time, for someone with my vantage point, one evil is so much greater, and dangerous to our long term freedom as individuals, that its hardly a choice right now.
Koya
Footballguy
I live in New York. Won't have any real effect in national elections. Which is why I do vote for a candidate I believe in - WHEN there is one (ie Gary Johnson, whom I voted for).
On a local level, I voted R for the key County and my local City elections and in total, it was a pretty varied ballot. So I am sorry that I "irk" you to admit that neither the Dems nor Reps provide me an option that I am happy with all too often, and when there is not a legitimate third option then I have to go with one or the other.
BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
Rich Conway
Footballguy
When I don't like any of the candidates on the ballot, I use the write-in space.
Nothing gets by you!
I never understood the mentality that someone is "forced to hold my nose" and vote for someone. It's seems like an easy cop out so they can say "Bush sucked but Gore/Kerry would have been worse" or "Obama sucks but McCain/Romney would have been worse", etc.
The reality is that politicians are going to continue to do all the things we ##### about them doing because it's working (for them). Why would you vote for someone you don't support? Maybe if more people who claim they prefer the Gary Johnson's of the world actually voted for them, the mainstream guys would take notice and incorporate some of their policies.
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Is trying to stop people from voting six times a bad idea or only having votes from people eligible to vote? It is ridiculously easy to vote in this country and it is ridiculously easy to vote for your dead relative or for someone who moved or cote in multiple locations. Only a few people get caught, but that does not mean it only occurs on a small scale. It is rather a difficult thing to catch the way elections are run.
Rich Conway
Footballguy
There aren't enough details in your list to really know exactly what some of them mean, but...
I don't really see an issue with any of these:
- The end of pre-registration for 16 & 17 year olds - Meh, who cares. Most 18 year olds shouldn't be voting anyway.
- A ban on paid voter registration drives - I'm not a fan of voter registration drives to begin with. We shouldn't be encouraging apathetic people to cast votes.
- Elimination of same day voter registration - Meh. If someone can't be bothered enough to register, they likely don't know enough about the issues to cast an intelligent vote anyway.
- Elimination of straight party ticket voting - Why is this one bad, exactly?
- An increase in the maximum campaign contribution to $5,000 (the limit will continue to increase every two years with the Consumer Price Index from the Bureau of Labor Statistics) - Why shouldn't campaign contribution limits be indexed to inflation? I assume you think that minimum wage, welfare, and foodstamps all should be indexed, no?
- Elimination of flexibility in opening early voting sites at different hours within a county - You're arguing that different locations for certain races should open and close at different times? Seems like allowing different open/close times is an invitation for parties in power to suppress votes.
- New limits on who can assist a voter adjudicated to be incompetent by court - I would suggest that someone deemed incompetent by a court shouldn't be allowed to vote at all.
- A provision allowing voters to be challenged by any registered voter of the county in which they vote rather than just their precinct
- A provision making the state’s presidential primary date a function of the primary date in South Carolina
- A provision calling for a study (rather than a mandate) of electronic candidate filing
- Authorization of vigilante poll observers, lots of them, with expanded range of interference
- An expansion of the scope of who may examine registration records and challenge voters
- A repeal of out-of-precinct voting
- A repeal of the current mandate for high-school registration drives
- A provision making it more difficult to add satellite polling sites for the elderly or voters with disabilities
- The repeal of three public financing programs
- The repeal of disclosure requirements under “candidate specific communications.”
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fatness
Footballguy
fatness
Footballguy
That's a nice place to avoid talking about what's actually going on -- an obvious attempt to prevent legitimate voters from voting, for political advantage.
Or on the other side, the agenda to keep it so easy to game the system to allow illegal votes for their side.
fatness
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
Jon, if every study seems to show that there aren't enough of these illegal votes to make any statistical difference, why do keep raising this issue?
How would anyone study such things? You put blind faith in anything that says 'study' after it. But if there are no real checks to verify votes, the study is not going to find anything. It's the Sargent Schultz study.
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Rich Conway
Footballguy
So because a lot of politicians are corrupt and self-serving, I shouldn't point out existing policies I dislike and propose thoughtful solutions?
It is truth. Both sides only care about what is best for their party as witnessed in Florida 2000 where teams of Democratic lawyers covered the state trying to disallow the military vote because it lacked proper postage stamp. Neither party has the high road in this debate.
MaxThreshold
Footballguy
Oh how that is so easily forgotten by the left. Didn't hear any calls about suppressing the vote then, did we?
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
I agree with Rich in that I'm in favor of making it harder for apathetic and disengaged people to vote. If one party happens to rely disproportionately on those people as part of its coalition, tough.
MaxThreshold
Footballguy
urbanhack
Fight The Power!
timschochet
Footballguy
That's fine. Most conservatives believe this; most liberals disagree. But yours is an argument we should be discussing. Voter fraud is not; it's a red herring put forth by those who share your opinion but don't believe the general public will.
D_House
Footballguy
Well at least some people in favor of these types of laws are honest that it's about limiting the vote rather than preventing voter fraud. The honesty is appreciated
MaxThreshold
Footballguy
That's not what he said at all. Nice try, thoughWell at least some people in favor of these types of laws are honest that it's about limiting the vote rather than preventing voter fraud.The honesty is appreciated
Koya
Footballguy
For me, in regard to this particular issue, it's hard to even get to the ideology of it. Philosophically you can certainly validate a number of the stated positions of the right. And yes, to a degree both parties engage in this awful practice of party over not only nation but the foundation of our freedom.Well at least some people in favor of these types of laws are honest that it's about limiting the vote rather than preventing voter fraud. The honesty is appreciated
That said, it's the widespread and coordinated actions by the Republican Party to purposefully lower the about for Dems to get votes that absolutely disgusts me. The Dems are hardly innocent but in terms of a coordinated national strategy, between the efforts delineated in this thread and gerrymandering to the nth degree, the actions of the Republican Party cut to the very heart of our freedom and core values.
If it's easier for you to ignore that reality - it's not opinion at this point, as their own members have clearly stated the facts - that's your choice. But it hurts our nation and our freedom*
* now, many on both sides of the aisle don't really value freedom. They want others to be forced to love by certain values and mores. So if you actually WANT to limit freedom and limit behaviors to what you believe is ok morally then it's another story.
It does happen, and they only way they get caught is when they go on local TV and brag about it. The system does not stop or catch them.
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Chaka
Footballguy
This debate is hysterical.
The real danger in voting isn't the possibility that someone might be voting for a dead relative or on an illegal SS# (those cut both left and right btw) and I don't really have a problem with voter IDs other than they would likely be a waste of resources to combat a problem that is negligible at best (I don't buy that it is so difficult to get one, seriously if you can't manage to get an ID in four years then you don't really want to vote). But the real danger that could have a wide impact is the possibility of gaming electronic voting machines. Again that one cuts both left and right.
But by all means go on fighting about this other nonsense.
The real danger in voting isn't the possibility that someone might be voting for a dead relative or on an illegal SS# (those cut both left and right btw) and I don't really have a problem with voter IDs other than they would likely be a waste of resources to combat a problem that is negligible at best (I don't buy that it is so difficult to get one, seriously if you can't manage to get an ID in four years then you don't really want to vote). But the real danger that could have a wide impact is the possibility of gaming electronic voting machines. Again that one cuts both left and right.
But by all means go on fighting about this other nonsense.
BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
Entire day passes and MAX still never acknowledges the truth.
Todd Andrews
Footballguy
Why are you KooKs so afraid to let Americans actually vote on your Good Republican ideas?MaxThreshold said:
Todd Andrews
Footballguy
Im a gunowning warmonger. You have me all wrong MaxKooK.MaxThreshold said:
I see what you're going for. But who would want people who can't manage to figure out how to get an ID voting on anything more complicated than whether they're going to eat McDonald's or Burger King for lunch?
Todd Andrews
Footballguy
Yeah, except we both know thats not really what is going on. Telling college kids they cant use their college IDs or have to vote in their home states instead of where they go to school and lots of the other bs isnt intended to do anything but keep Americans from voting, and you know it.
Dont get me wrong, I hate apathetic, uninformed, misinformed morons as much as the next person. Probably more. But they are Americans and making it more difficult for them to vote is not what this country is about (any longer).
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
FWIW there's research that suggests that voters are actually fairly well informed on the issues that matter to them. And ~35-40% of voters already stay home -- so we've already succeeded in cutting out the most apathetic groups in the population by adding all sorts of hurdles to the voting process (pre-registration, single-day voting only during work hours).
So unless you're willing to argue that only 50% (or less) of the population ought to vote, or you think that you also have the right to tell someone what issues they should be most concerned about this whole line of thought is pretty misguided IMO.
So unless you're willing to argue that only 50% (or less) of the population ought to vote, or you think that you also have the right to tell someone what issues they should be most concerned about this whole line of thought is pretty misguided IMO.
Hello, I'd like for there to be no restrictions whatsoever on voters other than they must be able to show up at a polling place because it means more votes for me.
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
joffer
Footballguy
if only there was some kind of registration for voting
MaxThreshold
Footballguy
Really? I think your conspiracy theories are getting the best of you. You're the real nut job around here.
Todd Andrews
Footballguy
What conspiracy theories, MaxKook? The only things I am referencing are legislation proposed and passed by Good Republicans.
Really? I think your conspiracy theories are getting the best of you. You're the real nut job around here.
MaxThreshold
Footballguy
What conspiracy theories, MaxKook? The only things I am referencing are legislation proposed and passed by Good Republicans.
Really? I think your conspiracy theories are getting the best of you. You're the real nut job around here.
You keep on believing your conspiracy theories.
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BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
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