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Official Joe Flacco - Kind of Sucks

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Ravens only gave up 17 points last night. So does that mean Flacco wasn't excellent? A big part of the reason they only gave up 17 was that the Ravens got ahead by 11 points midway through the 3rd quarter (thanks in very large part to Flacco's play) so the Steelers had to abandon the run, which made the Ravens' pass rush much more effective and helped them hold Pittsburgh to 17.

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In his favor:

He has had several good playoff games.

Casual fans sort by win%.

He probably deserved the Super Bowl MVP.

Against:

He followed up the magical 2012 playoff run (which wouldn't have been possible without Rahim Moore's stupidity) with a 22 INT horrific 2013.

The Ravens defense has been amazing virtually the entire 7 years of his career.

Run games been no joke either, the way Ravens manage games certainly helps the run game but Mcclain, Rice and now Forsett have been no slouches.

41 yds combined from Forsett and Pierce last nite.

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In his favor:

He has had several good playoff games.

Casual fans sort by win%.

He probably deserved the Super Bowl MVP.

Against:

He followed up the magical 2012 playoff run (which wouldn't have been possible without Rahim Moore's stupidity) with a 22 INT horrific 2013.

The Ravens defense has been amazing virtually the entire 7 years of his career.

Run games been no joke either, the way Ravens manage games certainly helps the run game but Mcclain, Rice and now Forsett have been no slouches.

41 yds combined from Forsett and Pierce last nite.

Man I couldn't even begin to imagine a counter-point to such a well crafted argument, so I'll just not make one...

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In his favor:

He has had several good playoff games.

Casual fans sort by win%.

He probably deserved the Super Bowl MVP.

Against:

He followed up the magical 2012 playoff run (which wouldn't have been possible without Rahim Moore's stupidity) with a 22 INT horrific 2013.

The Ravens defense has been amazing virtually the entire 7 years of his career.

Run games been no joke either, the way Ravens manage games certainly helps the run game but Mcclain, Rice and now Forsett have been no slouches.

41 yds combined from Forsett and Pierce last nite.

Man I couldn't even begin to imagine a counter-point to such a well crafted argument, so I'll just not make one...

Its pretty simple really. I'll let you think more on it...

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In his favor:

He has had several good playoff games.

Casual fans sort by win%.

He probably deserved the Super Bowl MVP.

Against:

He followed up the magical 2012 playoff run (which wouldn't have been possible without Rahim Moore's stupidity) with a 22 INT horrific 2013.

The Ravens defense has been amazing virtually the entire 7 years of his career.

Run games been no joke either, the way Ravens manage games certainly helps the run game but Mcclain, Rice and now Forsett have been no slouches.

41 yds combined from Forsett and Pierce last nite.

Man I couldn't even begin to imagine a counter-point to such a well crafted argument, so I'll just not make one...

Its pretty simple really. I'll let you think more on it...

Just so we're clear, you're arguing that Joe has won TWICE as many playoff games as any other qb (and the most road wins of all time) solely because of his godly defense. You don't think Flacco performs better in the playoffs than most qb's. I just want to make sure we all understand our positions here.

Edited by James Daulton

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In his favor:

He has had several good playoff games.

Casual fans sort by win%.

He probably deserved the Super Bowl MVP.

Against:

He followed up the magical 2012 playoff run (which wouldn't have been possible without Rahim Moore's stupidity) with a 22 INT horrific 2013.

The Ravens defense has been amazing virtually the entire 7 years of his career.

Run games been no joke either, the way Ravens manage games certainly helps the run game but Mcclain, Rice and now Forsett have been no slouches.

41 yds combined from Forsett and Pierce last nite.

Man I couldn't even begin to imagine a counter-point to such a well crafted argument, so I'll just not make one...

Its pretty simple really. I'll let you think more on it...

Just so we're clear, you're arguing that Joe has won TWICE as many playoff games as any other qb (and the most road wins of all time) solely because of his godly defense. You don't think Flacco performs better in the playoffs than most qb's. I just want to make sure we all understand our positions here.

I think you meant this for RunitUp and others. You and I are on same page.

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My opinions are well documented in this thread as I've been saying the same things about Flacco his entire career.

He had a great playoff run the year they won the super bowl, his game against the Pats was the best I've literally ever seen him play. That being said hes awful and if you extend his play past 1, 2, 8 games it becomes glaringly apparent that he is not very good.

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166 straight pass attempts in the playoffs without an INT, 13 TDs and 0 INTs in his last five playoff games. Seven road playoff wins, two more than anyone else.

Most under-appreciated QB in the NFL IMO.

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My opinions are well documented in this thread as I've been saying the same things about Flacco his entire career.

He had a great playoff run the year they won the super bowl, his game against the Pats was the best I've literally ever seen him play. That being said hes awful and if you extend his play past 1, 2, 8 games it becomes glaringly apparent that he is not very good.

Yeah, 3986 yards with 27 TDs and 12 INTs this year makes it clear he sucks.

:lmao:

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My opinions are well documented in this thread as I've been saying the same things about Flacco his entire career.

He had a great playoff run the year they won the super bowl, his game against the Pats was the best I've literally ever seen him play. That being said hes awful and if you extend his play past 1, 2, 8 games it becomes glaringly apparent that he is not very good.

Awful? GTFO.

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166 straight pass attempts in the playoffs without an INT, 13 TDs and 0 INTs in his last five playoff games. Seven road playoff wins, two more than anyone else.

Most under-appreciated QB in the NFL IMO.

And sandwiched between the 2012 playoff games and last night, he's thrown 34 INT and fumbled 13 times (luckily only lost 2) in 32 games. Only Eli and Dalton turned it over more during that time.

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My opinions are well documented in this thread as I've been saying the same things about Flacco his entire career.

He had a great playoff run the year they won the super bowl, his game against the Pats was the best I've literally ever seen him play. That being said hes awful and if you extend his play past 1, 2, 8 games it becomes glaringly apparent that he is not very good.

Awful? GTFO.
Year       G  GS   QBrec  Cmp  Att Cmp%   Yds  TD TD% Int Int%2008      16  16  11-5-0  257  428 60.0  2971  14 3.3  12  2.82009      16  16   9-7-0  315  499 63.1  3613  21 4.2  12  2.42010      16  16  12-4-0  306  489 62.6  3622  25 5.1  10  2.02011      16  16  12-4-0  312  542 57.6  3610  20 3.7  12  2.22012      16  16  10-6-0  317  531 59.7  3817  22 4.1  10  1.92013      16  16   8-8-0  362  614 59.0  3912  19 3.1  22  3.62014      16  16  10-6-0  344  554 62.1  3986  27 4.9  12  2.2Career   112 112 72-40-0 2213 3657 60.5 25531 148 4.0  90  2.5

Hyperbolic, but yes compared to his post-season deifying - actual Flacco is not very good.

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My opinions are well documented in this thread as I've been saying the same things about Flacco his entire career.

He had a great playoff run the year they won the super bowl, his game against the Pats was the best I've literally ever seen him play. That being said hes awful and if you extend his play past 1, 2, 8 games it becomes glaringly apparent that he is not very good.

Awful? GTFO.
Year       G  GS   QBrec  Cmp  Att Cmp%   Yds  TD TD% Int Int%2008      16  16  11-5-0  257  428 60.0  2971  14 3.3  12  2.82009      16  16   9-7-0  315  499 63.1  3613  21 4.2  12  2.42010      16  16  12-4-0  306  489 62.6  3622  25 5.1  10  2.02011      16  16  12-4-0  312  542 57.6  3610  20 3.7  12  2.22012      16  16  10-6-0  317  531 59.7  3817  22 4.1  10  1.92013      16  16   8-8-0  362  614 59.0  3912  19 3.1  22  3.62014      16  16  10-6-0  344  554 62.1  3986  27 4.9  12  2.2Career   112 112 72-40-0 2213 3657 60.5 25531 148 4.0  90  2.5
Hyperbolic, but yes compared to his post-season deifying - actual Flacco is not very good.
This is better. He's average to slightly above average.

Anyone know how 4% TD to 2.5% INT ranks across the timeline of his career?

Edited by mr roboto

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166 straight pass attempts in the playoffs without an INT, 13 TDs and 0 INTs in his last five playoff games. Seven road playoff wins, two more than anyone else.

Most under-appreciated QB in the NFL IMO.

And sandwiched between the 2012 playoff games and last night, he's thrown 34 INT and fumbled 13 times (luckily only lost 2) in 32 games. Only Eli and Dalton turned it over more during that time.

Why not just say he had a bad 2013? Because that's what it boils down to.

TD/INT

27/12

19/22

22/10

20/12

25/10

21/12

14/12

So one year he had turnover issues, great argument.

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My opinions are well documented in this thread as I've been saying the same things about Flacco his entire career.

He had a great playoff run the year they won the super bowl, his game against the Pats was the best I've literally ever seen him play. That being said hes awful and if you extend his play past 1, 2, 8 games it becomes glaringly apparent that he is not very good.

Awful? GTFO.
Year       G  GS   QBrec  Cmp  Att Cmp%   Yds  TD TD% Int Int%2008      16  16  11-5-0  257  428 60.0  2971  14 3.3  12  2.82009      16  16   9-7-0  315  499 63.1  3613  21 4.2  12  2.42010      16  16  12-4-0  306  489 62.6  3622  25 5.1  10  2.02011      16  16  12-4-0  312  542 57.6  3610  20 3.7  12  2.22012      16  16  10-6-0  317  531 59.7  3817  22 4.1  10  1.92013      16  16   8-8-0  362  614 59.0  3912  19 3.1  22  3.62014      16  16  10-6-0  344  554 62.1  3986  27 4.9  12  2.2Career   112 112 72-40-0 2213 3657 60.5 25531 148 4.0  90  2.5
Hyperbolic, but yes compared to his post-season deifying - actual Flacco is not very good.
This is better. He's average to slightly above average.

Anyone know how 4% TD to 2.5% INT ranks across the timeline of his career?

John Elway was 4.1 to 3.1 for example.

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Dalton, Stafford and Ryan all benefit from freaks at the WR position who undoubtedly pad the stats of their QBs. It's kooky talk to say any of those three QBs are better than Flacco at this point.

Flacco's a high third tier or low second tier QB in this league. Whether or not that's a testament to his ability or the lack of premium signal callers is up to debate I guess.

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So one year he had turnover issues, great argument.

It also happened to be the year they gave Flacco actual control of the offense. Took the training wheels off, changed the offense to a pass first team (before Rice got hurt) and the end result was Flacco threw the ball over 600 times for less than 4k and more ints than tds.

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So one year he had turnover issues, great argument.

It also happened to be the year they gave Flacco actual control of the offense. Took the training wheels off, changed the offense to a pass first team (before Rice got hurt) and the end result was Flacco threw the ball over 600 times for less than 4k and more ints than tds.

So one year he had turnover issues, great argument.

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Wow. I thought I hated Joe Flacco until I read the last two pages of this thread.

Dalton? Haha

Tony Romo's perceived ability in big games is so fragile. If they lose today and he doesn't have a great game, there shouldn't be a cowboy fan that wouldn't rather have Flacco.

When both teams had must win games last week, rivers had 0 tds and 2 ints. Flacco had 2 tds and 0 ints. I don't think you'll find many Ravens fans who would trade Joe for Rivers, Stafford, Ryan, Eli, Romo or Dalton. And I don't blame them one bit.

Cowboys will take their chances if they give up 17 or less points.... Again everyone acts like Flacco is clutch in the playoffs when in reality he has only won 2 games total in the playoffs where the odds weren't basically 90% in his favor because of the defense!

2-4 when defense gives up 17+ points and 2 of 10 wins have comes when Flacco was set up for the win by the defense. The defense wins games and Flacco normally comes along for the ride.

I also like how you avoided to mention Flacco against the tanking Browns and Rivers against a team in the chiefs who beat New England and Seattle at home the two #1 seeds....

I'm afraid Flacco's success and real statistics in the playoffs holds more water than your subjective conclusions.

Its not subjective its a fact.

Did you not read above where I went over the history of all teams in the playoffs:

Since 2008 teams are 40-3{18-0 on the road} when allowing 17 or less points the 3 losses (TEN vs BAL, NYJ, NYJ), since 1990 teams are 170-29{50-16 on the road} when allowing 17 or less points.

So since Joe Flacco came into the league teams have a 93% win percentage when allowing 17 points or less. That means in his 10 wins 8 of them he had a 93% chance of getting a win based on what his defense had allowed compared to every playoff game.

You're cherry picking and creating a strawman --lets look at Joe's SB winning year --the Ravens defense was rated #17 in league and IN the playoffs, the defense allowed an average or 22 points.

I am not, regular season don't count remember cause were talking about Joe Cool remember.... Points allowed seems to be a very good measuring stick of what teams should do in the outcome and is 100% related to teams winning or losing. In the games that Joe Cool delivers his defense allows less than 17 points 80% of the time (8 out of 10 games) in those games the Ravens as a team have a vastly improved chance of winning the game based on historical statistics of all playoff games over 90% since 2008.

In the playoffs the Ravens have been a top defensive team when they win since 2008 except for 2 games in which the Ravens offense has come out to rise to the occasion. When they lose the Ravens give up more points that offense can overcome - since 2008 (23, 20, 31, 23).

Also I will agree that in 2012 the defense of the Ravens was a lot worst than normal during the season but they still had 2 games where they showed up and pretty much shutdown the opponents (IND + @NE). I will say if you look at FootballOutsiders and the advanced metrics the Ravens were actually worse than 17th that year 19th as a defence.

DVOA for the Defense (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef)

2008- #2

2009- #4

2010- #6

2011- #1

2012- #19

2013- #7

2014- #8

Again I am not saying Flacco stinks or is below average. I have said he is a good QB but he gets way to much credit for being the reason the Ravens win in the post season. He had 1 good run so far and unfairly gets the credit for the earlier playoff wins prior to the Super Bowl year, he also completely missed the playoffs last year so we have not seen him in the playoffs since the magical run to the Super Bowl. I will adjust my view depending on how this post season plays out but if the Ravens lose 24-21 in New England it will only deepen my thought of him being a good NFL QB who is not anything more special than any other good NFL QB and doesn't have any sort of "clutch" factor.

Edited by TDorBust

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The road playoff stat is pretty misleading for as much as it's been brought up. Since Flacco entered the league in 2008...

Flacco is 6-0 in road playoff games when his defense gives up 17 points or less

Other QBs are 12-0 in road playoff games when their defense gives up 17 points or less

Flacco meanwhile is 2-4 in road playoff games where the defense gives up more than 17 points. The impressive stat here is that the Ravens' defense has held opponents to 17 points or less half as often as THE ENTIRE REST OF THE NFL, not that Flacco has won those games. Literally EVERY QB has won those games, Flacco's defense just has given him more of them.

Since Flacco entered the league, his W/L in road playoff games is right on par with, or slightly below the average playoff QB when the defense is factored in. 100% when allowing 17 points or less (equal to the NFL average), and 33% when allowing 18+ points (below the NFL average). Again, the only difference is that the defense has allotted far more games in the first category than any other team for Flacco.

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My opinions are well documented in this thread as I've been saying the same things about Flacco his entire career.

He had a great playoff run the year they won the super bowl, his game against the Pats was the best I've literally ever seen him play. That being said hes awful and if you extend his play past 1, 2, 8 games it becomes glaringly apparent that he is not very good.

Awful? GTFO.
Year       G  GS   QBrec  Cmp  Att Cmp%   Yds  TD TD% Int Int%2008      16  16  11-5-0  257  428 60.0  2971  14 3.3  12  2.82009      16  16   9-7-0  315  499 63.1  3613  21 4.2  12  2.42010      16  16  12-4-0  306  489 62.6  3622  25 5.1  10  2.02011      16  16  12-4-0  312  542 57.6  3610  20 3.7  12  2.22012      16  16  10-6-0  317  531 59.7  3817  22 4.1  10  1.92013      16  16   8-8-0  362  614 59.0  3912  19 3.1  22  3.62014      16  16  10-6-0  344  554 62.1  3986  27 4.9  12  2.2Career   112 112 72-40-0 2213 3657 60.5 25531 148 4.0  90  2.5
Hyperbolic, but yes compared to his post-season deifying - actual Flacco is not very good.
This is better. He's average to slightly above average.

Anyone know how 4% TD to 2.5% INT ranks across the timeline of his career?

Since 2008

Romo 5.6 TD to 2.3 INT

Eli 4.8 to 3.2

Cutler 4.7 to 3.4

Stafford 4.2 to 2.7 (2009 rookie)

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Wow. I thought I hated Joe Flacco until I read the last two pages of this thread.

Dalton? Haha

Tony Romo's perceived ability in big games is so fragile. If they lose today and he doesn't have a great game, there shouldn't be a cowboy fan that wouldn't rather have Flacco.

When both teams had must win games last week, rivers had 0 tds and 2 ints. Flacco had 2 tds and 0 ints. I don't think you'll find many Ravens fans who would trade Joe for Rivers, Stafford, Ryan, Eli, Romo or Dalton. And I don't blame them one bit.

Cowboys will take their chances if they give up 17 or less points.... Again everyone acts like Flacco is clutch in the playoffs when in reality he has only won 2 games total in the playoffs where the odds weren't basically 90% in his favor because of the defense!

2-4 when defense gives up 17+ points and 2 of 10 wins have comes when Flacco was set up for the win by the defense. The defense wins games and Flacco normally comes along for the ride.

I also like how you avoided to mention Flacco against the tanking Browns and Rivers against a team in the chiefs who beat New England and Seattle at home the two #1 seeds....

I'm afraid Flacco's success and real statistics in the playoffs holds more water than your subjective conclusions.

Its not subjective its a fact.

Did you not read above where I went over the history of all teams in the playoffs:

Since 2008 teams are 40-3{18-0 on the road} when allowing 17 or less points the 3 losses (TEN vs BAL, NYJ, NYJ), since 1990 teams are 170-29{50-16 on the road} when allowing 17 or less points.

So since Joe Flacco came into the league teams have a 93% win percentage when allowing 17 points or less. That means in his 10 wins 8 of them he had a 93% chance of getting a win based on what his defense had allowed compared to every playoff game.

You're cherry picking and creating a strawman --lets look at Joe's SB winning year --the Ravens defense was rated #17 in league and IN the playoffs, the defense allowed an average or 22 points.

I am not, regular season don't count remember cause were talking about Joe Cool remember.... Points allowed seems to be a very good measuring stick of what teams should do in the outcome and is 100% related to teams winning or losing. In the games that Joe Cool delivers his defense allows less than 17 points 80% of the time (8 out of 10 games) in those games the Ravens as a team have a vastly improved chance of winning the game based on historical statistics of all playoff games over 90% since 2008.

In the playoffs the Ravens have been a top defensive team when they win since 2008 except for 2 games in which the Ravens offense has come out to rise to the occasion. When they lose the Ravens give up more points that offense can overcome - since 2008 (23, 20, 31, 23).

Also I will agree that in 2012 the defense of the Ravens was a lot worst than normal during the season but they still had 2 games where they showed up and pretty much shutdown the opponents (IND + @NE). I will say if you look at FootballOutsiders and the advanced metrics the Ravens were actually worse than 17th that year 19th as a defence.

DVOA for the Defense (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef)

2008- #2

2009- #4

2010- #6

2011- #1

2012- #19

2013- #7

2014- #8

Again I am not saying Flacco stinks or is below average. I have said he is a good QB but he gets way to much credit for being the reason the Ravens win in the post season. He had 1 good run so far and unfairly gets the credit for the earlier playoff wins prior to the Super Bowl year, he also completely missed the playoffs last year so we have not seen him in the playoffs since the magical run to the Super Bowl. I will adjust my view depending on how this post season plays out but if the Ravens lose 24-21 in New England it will only deepen my thought of him being a good NFL QB who is not anything more special than any other good NFL QB.

Can't one make a similar argument (that being the talent level around the player argument) for just about ANY player in the NFL? "Wellll...that Montana wouldn't be as great as he was if it weren't for Jerry Rice"....."yeah, Brady doesn't deserve any accolades for those championships because his defense was that great?"

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So one year he had turnover issues, great argument.

It also happened to be the year they gave Flacco actual control of the offense. Took the training wheels off, changed the offense to a pass first team (before Rice got hurt) and the end result was Flacco threw the ball over 600 times for less than 4k and more ints than tds.

So one year he had turnover issues, great argument.

Thats not my argument, I was giving context to a point I thought was important. Flacco is a game manager imo, Flacco got a big contract and they told him it was time to become an actual passer and he had his worst statistical season by a ####### mile. The difference between 2013 Flacco and 2012 Flacco is the run game wasn't great and his elite veteran defense was gone.

It wasn't just a bad year where he had turnover issues, it was a pretty important in terms of seeing how much he had actually developed as a passer.

Edited by Run It Up

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My opinions are well documented in this thread as I've been saying the same things about Flacco his entire career.

He had a great playoff run the year they won the super bowl, his game against the Pats was the best I've literally ever seen him play. That being said hes awful and if you extend his play past 1, 2, 8 games it becomes glaringly apparent that he is not very good.

Awful? GTFO.
Year       G  GS   QBrec  Cmp  Att Cmp%   Yds  TD TD% Int Int%2008      16  16  11-5-0  257  428 60.0  2971  14 3.3  12  2.82009      16  16   9-7-0  315  499 63.1  3613  21 4.2  12  2.42010      16  16  12-4-0  306  489 62.6  3622  25 5.1  10  2.02011      16  16  12-4-0  312  542 57.6  3610  20 3.7  12  2.22012      16  16  10-6-0  317  531 59.7  3817  22 4.1  10  1.92013      16  16   8-8-0  362  614 59.0  3912  19 3.1  22  3.62014      16  16  10-6-0  344  554 62.1  3986  27 4.9  12  2.2Career   112 112 72-40-0 2213 3657 60.5 25531 148 4.0  90  2.5
Hyperbolic, but yes compared to his post-season deifying - actual Flacco is not very good.
This is better. He's average to slightly above average.

Anyone know how 4% TD to 2.5% INT ranks across the timeline of his career?

Since 2008

Romo 5.6 TD to 2.3 INT

Eli 4.8 to 3.2

Cutler 4.7 to 3.4

Stafford 4.2 to 2.7 (2009 rookie)

Thx. So less explosive less TO prone (except for Romo).

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So one year he had turnover issues, great argument.

It also happened to be the year they gave Flacco actual control of the offense. Took the training wheels off, changed the offense to a pass first team (before Rice got hurt) and the end result was Flacco threw the ball over 600 times for less than 4k and more ints than tds.

So one year he had turnover issues, great argument.

Thats not my argument, I was giving context to a point I thought was important. Flacco is a game manager imo, Flacco got a big contract and they told him it was time to become an actual passer and he had his worst statistical season by a ####### mile. The difference between 2013 Flacco and 2012 Flacco is the run game wasn't great and his elite veteran defense was gone.

It wasn't just a bad year where he had turnover issues, it was a pretty important in terms of seeing how much he had actually developed as a passer.

I don't think the current NFL can have QB's that are "game managers" -- and again on 2013, the WHOLE team stunk. You don't want to give Joe credit when surrounded by talent, but you will throw him under the bus as responsible when that talent isn't there...

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The road playoff stat is pretty misleading for as much as it's been brought up. Since Flacco entered the league in 2008...

Flacco is 6-0 in road playoff games when his defense gives up 17 points or less

Other QBs are 12-0 in road playoff games when their defense gives up 17 points or less

Flacco meanwhile is 2-4 in road playoff games where the defense gives up more than 17 points. The impressive stat here is that the Ravens' defense has held opponents to 17 points or less half as often as THE ENTIRE REST OF THE NFL, not that Flacco has won those games. Literally EVERY QB has won those games, Flacco's defense just has given him more of them.

Since Flacco entered the league, his W/L in road playoff games is right on par with, or slightly below the average playoff QB when the defense is factored in. 100% when allowing 17 points or less (equal to the NFL average), and 33% when allowing 18+ points (below the NFL average). Again, the only difference is that the defense has allotted far more games in the first category than any other team for Flacco.

So I guess 13 Tds and 0 INTs is misleading to? 166 consecutive passes without a TD is misleading?

You also conveniently omitted Flacco winning 38-35 as a huge dog in Denver where his defense was awful, and the Super Bowl 34-31. 331/3/0 and 289/3/0 in those two games.

Below are two AFC QB numbers in the playoffs. I know which guy I would take. Do you?

QBR  Yards Comp% TDs   INT GP88     2931  56   21    8   1484     3150  60   20   17   15
Edited by Doctor Detroit
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So one year he had turnover issues, great argument.

It also happened to be the year they gave Flacco actual control of the offense. Took the training wheels off, changed the offense to a pass first team (before Rice got hurt) and the end result was Flacco threw the ball over 600 times for less than 4k and more ints than tds.

So one year he had turnover issues, great argument.

Thats not my argument, I was giving context to a point I thought was important. Flacco is a game manager imo, Flacco got a big contract and they told him it was time to become an actual passer and he had his worst statistical season by a ####### mile. The difference between 2013 Flacco and 2012 Flacco is the run game wasn't great and his elite veteran defense was gone.

It wasn't just a bad year where he had turnover issues, it was a pretty important in terms of seeing how much he had actually developed as a passer.

Yeah your argument is that he's awful, which he clearly is not.

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So one year he had turnover issues, great argument.

It also happened to be the year they gave Flacco actual control of the offense. Took the training wheels off, changed the offense to a pass first team (before Rice got hurt) and the end result was Flacco threw the ball over 600 times for less than 4k and more ints than tds.

So one year he had turnover issues, great argument.

Thats not my argument, I was giving context to a point I thought was important. Flacco is a game manager imo, Flacco got a big contract and they told him it was time to become an actual passer and he had his worst statistical season by a ####### mile. The difference between 2013 Flacco and 2012 Flacco is the run game wasn't great and his elite veteran defense was gone.

It wasn't just a bad year where he had turnover issues, it was a pretty important in terms of seeing how much he had actually developed as a passer.

I don't think the current NFL can have QB's that are "game managers" -- and again on 2013, the WHOLE team stunk. You don't want to give Joe credit when surrounded by talent, but you will throw him under the bus as responsible when that talent isn't there...

What credit is he deserved? I said he plays well in the post season and that he doesn't play well in the regular season - the fact I call him a game manager actually elevates him in regards to QBs he plays better managing games than he does being responsible for them.

The argument that keeps coming up is essentially 'he just wins games', in regards to his playoff success completely ignoring his regular season performance, thats fine if you wanna make an argument in a vacuum - my response to that is no I wouldn't rather have Flacco in the post-season, I would rather have the better passer.

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Can't one make a similar argument (that being the talent level around the player argument) for just about ANY player in the NFL? "Wellll...that Montana wouldn't be as great as he was if it weren't for Jerry Rice"....."yeah, Brady doesn't deserve any accolades for those championships because his defense was that great?"

Make the argument then? I personally don't know as I was strictly looking into Flacco and how he matches up.

I can't do the Montana one unless I wanted to look at league averages back then as 1980's NFL vs 2000's NFL is so different likely with points allowed and points scored in the post season.

Brady though points defense gave up:

2002 - 3 games (13,17,17) - Champs

2003 - No games

2004 - 3 games (14,14,29) - Champs

2005 - 3 games (3,27,21) - Champs

2006 - 2 games (3, 27L)

2007 - 3 games (16, 21, 38L)

2008 - 3 games (20, 12, 17L)

2009 - No games

2010 - 1 games (33L)

2011 - 1 games (28L)

2012 - 3 games (10, 20, 21L)

2013 - 2 games (28, 28L)

2014 - 2 games (22, 26L)

2015 - Have yet to play

17 or less: 10-1

18 or more: 8-7

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I think Run It Up is still bitter about Flacco outplaying Brady two years ago at Foxboro in the playoffs.

He has an opportunity to do it again, but his defense isn't gonna bail him out and Gronk is actually gonna be on the field. Crow is prepared.

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I think Run It Up is still bitter about Flacco outplaying Brady two years ago at Foxboro in the playoffs.

And when they should have won with the TD drop from Evans.

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So one year he had turnover issues, great argument.

It also happened to be the year they gave Flacco actual control of the offense. Took the training wheels off, changed the offense to a pass first team (before Rice got hurt) and the end result was Flacco threw the ball over 600 times for less than 4k and more ints than tds.

So one year he had turnover issues, great argument.

Thats not my argument, I was giving context to a point I thought was important. Flacco is a game manager imo, Flacco got a big contract and they told him it was time to become an actual passer and he had his worst statistical season by a ####### mile. The difference between 2013 Flacco and 2012 Flacco is the run game wasn't great and his elite veteran defense was gone.

It wasn't just a bad year where he had turnover issues, it was a pretty important in terms of seeing how much he had actually developed as a passer.

I don't think the current NFL can have QB's that are "game managers" -- and again on 2013, the WHOLE team stunk. You don't want to give Joe credit when surrounded by talent, but you will throw him under the bus as responsible when that talent isn't there...

What credit is he deserved? I said he plays well in the post season and that he doesn't play well in the regular season - the fact I call him a game manager actually elevates him in regards to QBs he plays better managing games than he does being responsible for them.

The argument that keeps coming up is essentially 'he just wins games', in regards to his playoff success completely ignoring his regular season performance, thats fine if you wanna make an argument in a vacuum - my response to that is no I wouldn't rather have Flacco in the post-season, I would rather have the better passer.

Last 5 playoff games, 13 tds, 0 INT. Hard to top that

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I think Run It Up is still bitter about Flacco outplaying Brady two years ago at Foxboro in the playoffs.

He out played him 3 yrs ago as well in AFC champ game.

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The road playoff stat is pretty misleading for as much as it's been brought up. Since Flacco entered the league in 2008...

Flacco is 6-0 in road playoff games when his defense gives up 17 points or less

Other QBs are 12-0 in road playoff games when their defense gives up 17 points or less

Flacco meanwhile is 2-4 in road playoff games where the defense gives up more than 17 points. The impressive stat here is that the Ravens' defense has held opponents to 17 points or less half as often as THE ENTIRE REST OF THE NFL, not that Flacco has won those games. Literally EVERY QB has won those games, Flacco's defense just has given him more of them.

Since Flacco entered the league, his W/L in road playoff games is right on par with, or slightly below the average playoff QB when the defense is factored in. 100% when allowing 17 points or less (equal to the NFL average), and 33% when allowing 18+ points (below the NFL average). Again, the only difference is that the defense has allotted far more games in the first category than any other team for Flacco.

So I guess 13 Tds and 0 INTs is misleading to? 166 consecutive passes without a TD is misleading?

You also conveniently omitted Flacco winning 38-35 as a huge dog in Denver where his defense was awful, and the Super Bowl 34-31. 331/3/0 and 289/3/0 in those two games.

Below are two AFC QB numbers in the playoffs. I know which guy I would take. Do you?

QBR  Yards Comp% TDs   INT GP88     2931  56   21    8   1484     3150  60   20   17   15

I 100% agree that 1 year Flacco was great in the post-season. My argument way back to the start of this is that he has unfairly taken the credit for every single win since coming into the NFL and becoming Joe Cool the playoff Mozart and Mr. Clutch. I don't think anyone is arguing he did not have a great run the year they won the Super Bowl the whole argument is about Flacco's career and that currently he has 5 going on 6 years of nothing amazing in the post season and 1 year that he was great and lead the team to a Super Bowl.

Again I will adjust my thinking if Flacco can do something this post season but the same old Ravens where they win when allowing less than 17 and lose when allowing more is 100% defense and has less to do with Flacco.

The great thing about sports is views can change if your open to it. I am not open to saying the Bears are a better historical franchise than the Packers, I am open to moving Flacco from the good QB group to the great QB group based solely on his post season play but he has to show it to me first.

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The road playoff stat is pretty misleading for as much as it's been brought up. Since Flacco entered the league in 2008...

Flacco is 6-0 in road playoff games when his defense gives up 17 points or less

Other QBs are 12-0 in road playoff games when their defense gives up 17 points or less

Flacco meanwhile is 2-4 in road playoff games where the defense gives up more than 17 points. The impressive stat here is that the Ravens' defense has held opponents to 17 points or less half as often as THE ENTIRE REST OF THE NFL, not that Flacco has won those games. Literally EVERY QB has won those games, Flacco's defense just has given him more of them.

Since Flacco entered the league, his W/L in road playoff games is right on par with, or slightly below the average playoff QB when the defense is factored in. 100% when allowing 17 points or less (equal to the NFL average), and 33% when allowing 18+ points (below the NFL average). Again, the only difference is that the defense has allotted far more games in the first category than any other team for Flacco.

So I guess 13 Tds and 0 INTs is misleading to? 166 consecutive passes without a TD is misleading?

You also conveniently omitted Flacco winning 38-35 as a huge dog in Denver where his defense was awful, and the Super Bowl 34-31. 331/3/0 and 289/3/0 in those two games.

Below are two AFC QB numbers in the playoffs. I know which guy I would take. Do you?

QBR  Yards Comp% TDs   INT GP88     2931  56   21    8   1484     3150  60   20   17   15

I didn't "conveniently" leave anything out. I was very explicit that I was talking about the road playoff W/L record specifically in that post.

Flacco played great in those two games you mentioned, and if you want to say that he's a great QB on the merits of two great games during a 7 year career than that's your prerogative. My qualm is with people throwing around this playoff road win stat as if it's some huge point in his favor. It's not. It's literally the same thing that every other QB has done over the same span, he's just had more opportunities.

Mark Sanchez is 3-0 in road playoff games where his defense allows 17 or fewer points and followed one of those wins up with a 200/3/0 performance on the road against New England in a 28-21 win. That doesn't make him a great quarterback.

In fact, Flacco and Sanchez have identical road playoff W/L percentages in the two buckets we're talking about here.

When defense allows 17 points or less

Flacco: 6-0 (1.00)

Sanchez: 3-0 (1.00)

When defense allows 18+ points

Flacco: 2-4 (.33)

Sanchez: 1-2 (.33)

Sanchez's road playoff W/L percentages are literally identical to Flacco's. The fact that Joe Flacco and Mark Sanchez are the "best" at winning road playoff games since they entered the league is a sign of how useless a metric it is when you don't account for the defense, not a sign of how great Flacco and Sanchez are.

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The road playoff stat is pretty misleading for as much as it's been brought up. Since Flacco entered the league in 2008...

Flacco is 6-0 in road playoff games when his defense gives up 17 points or less

Other QBs are 12-0 in road playoff games when their defense gives up 17 points or less

Flacco meanwhile is 2-4 in road playoff games where the defense gives up more than 17 points. The impressive stat here is that the Ravens' defense has held opponents to 17 points or less half as often as THE ENTIRE REST OF THE NFL, not that Flacco has won those games. Literally EVERY QB has won those games, Flacco's defense just has given him more of them.

Since Flacco entered the league, his W/L in road playoff games is right on par with, or slightly below the average playoff QB when the defense is factored in. 100% when allowing 17 points or less (equal to the NFL average), and 33% when allowing 18+ points (below the NFL average). Again, the only difference is that the defense has allotted far more games in the first category than any other team for Flacco.

So I guess 13 Tds and 0 INTs is misleading to? 166 consecutive passes without a TD is misleading?

You also conveniently omitted Flacco winning 38-35 as a huge dog in Denver where his defense was awful, and the Super Bowl 34-31. 331/3/0 and 289/3/0 in those two games.

Below are two AFC QB numbers in the playoffs. I know which guy I would take. Do you?

QBR  Yards Comp% TDs   INT GP88     2931  56   21    8   1484     3150  60   20   17   15

I 100% agree that 1 year Flacco was great in the post-season. My argument way back to the start of this is that he has unfairly taken the credit for every single win since coming into the NFL and becoming Joe Cool the playoff Mozart and Mr. Clutch. I don't think anyone is arguing he did not have a great run the year they won the Super Bowl the whole argument is about Flacco's career and that currently he has 5 going on 6 years of nothing amazing in the post season and 1 year that he was great and lead the team to a Super Bowl.

Again I will adjust my thinking if Flacco can do something this post season but the same old Ravens where they win when allowing less than 17 and lose when allowing more is 100% defense and has less to do with Flacco.

The great thing about sports is views can change if your open to it. I am not open to saying the Bears are a better historical franchise than the Packers, I am open to moving Flacco from the good QB group to the great QB group based solely on his post season play but he has to show it to me first.

"He has twice as many playoff wins as any other qb in the league since he entered. 8 on the road. " what is so hard to comprehend here?

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The road playoff stat is pretty misleading for as much as it's been brought up. Since Flacco entered the league in 2008...

Flacco is 6-0 in road playoff games when his defense gives up 17 points or less

Other QBs are 12-0 in road playoff games when their defense gives up 17 points or less

Flacco meanwhile is 2-4 in road playoff games where the defense gives up more than 17 points. The impressive stat here is that the Ravens' defense has held opponents to 17 points or less half as often as THE ENTIRE REST OF THE NFL, not that Flacco has won those games. Literally EVERY QB has won those games, Flacco's defense just has given him more of them.

Since Flacco entered the league, his W/L in road playoff games is right on par with, or slightly below the average playoff QB when the defense is factored in. 100% when allowing 17 points or less (equal to the NFL average), and 33% when allowing 18+ points (below the NFL average). Again, the only difference is that the defense has allotted far more games in the first category than any other team for Flacco.

So I guess 13 Tds and 0 INTs is misleading to? 166 consecutive passes without a TD is misleading?

You also conveniently omitted Flacco winning 38-35 as a huge dog in Denver where his defense was awful, and the Super Bowl 34-31. 331/3/0 and 289/3/0 in those two games.

Below are two AFC QB numbers in the playoffs. I know which guy I would take. Do you?

QBR  Yards Comp% TDs   INT GP88     2931  56   21    8   1484     3150  60   20   17   15

I 100% agree that 1 year Flacco was great in the post-season. My argument way back to the start of this is that he has unfairly taken the credit for every single win since coming into the NFL and becoming Joe Cool the playoff Mozart and Mr. Clutch. I don't think anyone is arguing he did not have a great run the year they won the Super Bowl the whole argument is about Flacco's career and that currently he has 5 going on 6 years of nothing amazing in the post season and 1 year that he was great and lead the team to a Super Bowl.

Again I will adjust my thinking if Flacco can do something this post season but the same old Ravens where they win when allowing less than 17 and lose when allowing more is 100% defense and has less to do with Flacco.

The great thing about sports is views can change if your open to it. I am not open to saying the Bears are a better historical franchise than the Packers, I am open to moving Flacco from the good QB group to the great QB group based solely on his post season play but he has to show it to me first.

"He has twice as many playoff wins as any other qb in the league since he entered. 8 on the road. " what is so hard to comprehend here?

Context by the sort by win% guys.

Edited by IHEARTFF

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The road playoff stat is pretty misleading for as much as it's been brought up. Since Flacco entered the league in 2008...

Flacco is 6-0 in road playoff games when his defense gives up 17 points or less

Other QBs are 12-0 in road playoff games when their defense gives up 17 points or less

Flacco meanwhile is 2-4 in road playoff games where the defense gives up more than 17 points. The impressive stat here is that the Ravens' defense has held opponents to 17 points or less half as often as THE ENTIRE REST OF THE NFL, not that Flacco has won those games. Literally EVERY QB has won those games, Flacco's defense just has given him more of them.

Since Flacco entered the league, his W/L in road playoff games is right on par with, or slightly below the average playoff QB when the defense is factored in. 100% when allowing 17 points or less (equal to the NFL average), and 33% when allowing 18+ points (below the NFL average). Again, the only difference is that the defense has allotted far more games in the first category than any other team for Flacco.

So I guess 13 Tds and 0 INTs is misleading to? 166 consecutive passes without a TD is misleading?

You also conveniently omitted Flacco winning 38-35 as a huge dog in Denver where his defense was awful, and the Super Bowl 34-31. 331/3/0 and 289/3/0 in those two games.

Below are two AFC QB numbers in the playoffs. I know which guy I would take. Do you?

QBR  Yards Comp% TDs   INT GP88     2931  56   21    8   1484     3150  60   20   17   15

I didn't "conveniently" leave anything out. I was very explicit that I was talking about the road playoff W/L record specifically in that post.

Flacco played great in those two games you mentioned, and if you want to say that he's a great QB on the merits of two great games during a 7 year career than that's your prerogative. My qualm is with people throwing around this playoff road win stat as if it's some huge point in his favor. It's not. It's literally the same thing that every other QB has done over the same span, he's just had more opportunities.

Mark Sanchez is 3-0 in road playoff games where his defense allows 17 or fewer points and followed one of those wins up with a 200/3/0 performance on the road against New England in a 28-21 win. That doesn't make him a great quarterback.

In fact, Flacco and Sanchez have identical road playoff W/L percentages in the two buckets we're talking about here.

When defense allows 17 points or less

Flacco: 6-0 (1.00)

Sanchez: 3-0 (1.00)

When defense allows 18+ points

Flacco: 2-4 (.33)

Sanchez: 1-2 (.33)

Sanchez's road playoff W/L percentages are literally identical to Flacco's. The fact that Joe Flacco and Mark Sanchez are the "best" at winning road playoff games since they entered the league is a sign of how useless a metric it is when you don't account for the defense, not a sign of how great Flacco and Sanchez are.

Terry Bradshaw was 2-5 in the post-season when the opposing team scored 17 or more points.

His 4 Super Bowl titles, Super Bowl MVP, and Hall of Fame induction are all "misleading" because of it. Right? Here are some overall records of some great QBs when their teams allowed 17 or more points in a playoff game, and I won't even cherry-pick it by using "road games," because it would look worse than this (Montana was 1-5 for example).

Joe Montana was 6-6

Dan Marino was 5-10

Peyton Manning 6-12

Roger Staubach 2-6

Joe Flacco 3-4

Bradshaw 2-5

Of the HOF or soon to be HOF QBs I looked up, only Brady (10-8), Elway (10-7) and Roethlisberger (8-5) had winning records over their careers when the opposing team scored 17 or more. Not sure why you used 17 as if it was a gold standard metric, or you just cut and pasted from somewhere.

oops

:own3d:

Edited by Doctor Detroit

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:lmao:

Because 17 points scored in the 70's/80's is the same as 17 points scored in the modern NFL. They don't make a big enough eyeroll icon for that statement. While we're at it can we go ahead and say that Ryan Tannehill is better than Terry Bradshaw? His stats blow Bradshaw's away!

The only one of those guys you listed that plays in the modern NFL is Peyton, who has the same W/L percentage as Flacco in those games and is known as a "choker" because of it. Not exactly a merit there.

I never said that Flacco's W/L is bad in road games when adjusted for the defense, just that it's completely average. When his defense plays well he wins at the same clip as the average NFL QB when their defense plays well. When the defense plays poorly he wins at a slightly worse clip than the average NFL QB when their defense plays poorly. He has done nothing unique on the road in the playoffs in terms of W/L, other than participate in more games where the defense plays well.

Edited by FreeBaGeL

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The road playoff stat is pretty misleading for as much as it's been brought up. Since Flacco entered the league in 2008...

Flacco is 6-0 in road playoff games when his defense gives up 17 points or less

Other QBs are 12-0 in road playoff games when their defense gives up 17 points or less

Flacco meanwhile is 2-4 in road playoff games where the defense gives up more than 17 points. The impressive stat here is that the Ravens' defense has held opponents to 17 points or less half as often as THE ENTIRE REST OF THE NFL, not that Flacco has won those games. Literally EVERY QB has won those games, Flacco's defense just has given him more of them.

Since Flacco entered the league, his W/L in road playoff games is right on par with, or slightly below the average playoff QB when the defense is factored in. 100% when allowing 17 points or less (equal to the NFL average), and 33% when allowing 18+ points (below the NFL average). Again, the only difference is that the defense has allotted far more games in the first category than any other team for Flacco.

So I guess 13 Tds and 0 INTs is misleading to? 166 consecutive passes without a TD is misleading?

You also conveniently omitted Flacco winning 38-35 as a huge dog in Denver where his defense was awful, and the Super Bowl 34-31. 331/3/0 and 289/3/0 in those two games.

Below are two AFC QB numbers in the playoffs. I know which guy I would take. Do you?

QBR  Yards Comp% TDs   INT GP88     2931  56   21    8   1484     3150  60   20   17   15

I 100% agree that 1 year Flacco was great in the post-season. My argument way back to the start of this is that he has unfairly taken the credit for every single win since coming into the NFL and becoming Joe Cool the playoff Mozart and Mr. Clutch. I don't think anyone is arguing he did not have a great run the year they won the Super Bowl the whole argument is about Flacco's career and that currently he has 5 going on 6 years of nothing amazing in the post season and 1 year that he was great and lead the team to a Super Bowl.

Again I will adjust my thinking if Flacco can do something this post season but the same old Ravens where they win when allowing less than 17 and lose when allowing more is 100% defense and has less to do with Flacco.

The great thing about sports is views can change if your open to it. I am not open to saying the Bears are a better historical franchise than the Packers, I am open to moving Flacco from the good QB group to the great QB group based solely on his post season play but he has to show it to me first.

"He has twice as many playoff wins as any other qb in the league since he entered. 8 on the road. " what is so hard to comprehend here?

Lets see teams on the road since 2008 are 18-0 when holding the home team to 17 points or less...

Flacco on the road:

17 or less: 6-0

18 or more: 1-4* Didn't count Super Bowl as its a neutral field not road game but would be 2-4 then

So can you tell me again how this is hard to comprehend that Flacco is not the one winning on the road but benefits from a defense holding teams to under 17 points?

Brady on the road:

17 or less: 1-0

18 or more: 2-3

Rodgers on the road:

17 or less: 2-0

18 or more: 1-2(losses of 31-45 and 45-51)

P Manning on the road:

17 or less: 1-0

18 or more: 1-5

E Manning on the road:

17 or less: 3-0

18 or more: 1-2

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:lmao:

Because 17 points scored in the 1970's is the same as 17 points scored in the modern NFL. They don't make a big enough eyeroll icon for that statement.

:own3d:

Badly I might add

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The road playoff stat is pretty misleading for as much as it's been brought up. Since Flacco entered the league in 2008...

Flacco is 6-0 in road playoff games when his defense gives up 17 points or less

Other QBs are 12-0 in road playoff games when their defense gives up 17 points or less

Flacco meanwhile is 2-4 in road playoff games where the defense gives up more than 17 points. The impressive stat here is that the Ravens' defense has held opponents to 17 points or less half as often as THE ENTIRE REST OF THE NFL, not that Flacco has won those games. Literally EVERY QB has won those games, Flacco's defense just has given him more of them.

Since Flacco entered the league, his W/L in road playoff games is right on par with, or slightly below the average playoff QB when the defense is factored in. 100% when allowing 17 points or less (equal to the NFL average), and 33% when allowing 18+ points (below the NFL average). Again, the only difference is that the defense has allotted far more games in the first category than any other team for Flacco.

So I guess 13 Tds and 0 INTs is misleading to? 166 consecutive passes without a TD is misleading?

You also conveniently omitted Flacco winning 38-35 as a huge dog in Denver where his defense was awful, and the Super Bowl 34-31. 331/3/0 and 289/3/0 in those two games.

Below are two AFC QB numbers in the playoffs. I know which guy I would take. Do you?

QBR  Yards Comp% TDs   INT GP88     2931  56   21    8   1484     3150  60   20   17   15

I 100% agree that 1 year Flacco was great in the post-season. My argument way back to the start of this is that he has unfairly taken the credit for every single win since coming into the NFL and becoming Joe Cool the playoff Mozart and Mr. Clutch. I don't think anyone is arguing he did not have a great run the year they won the Super Bowl the whole argument is about Flacco's career and that currently he has 5 going on 6 years of nothing amazing in the post season and 1 year that he was great and lead the team to a Super Bowl.

Again I will adjust my thinking if Flacco can do something this post season but the same old Ravens where they win when allowing less than 17 and lose when allowing more is 100% defense and has less to do with Flacco.

The great thing about sports is views can change if your open to it. I am not open to saying the Bears are a better historical franchise than the Packers, I am open to moving Flacco from the good QB group to the great QB group based solely on his post season play but he has to show it to me first.

"He has twice as many playoff wins as any other qb in the league since he entered. 8 on the road. " what is so hard to comprehend here?

Lets see teams on the road since 2008 are 18-0 when holding the home team to 17 points or less...

Flacco on the road:

17 or less: 6-0

18 or more: 1-4* Didn't count Super Bowl as its a neutral field not road game but would be 2-4 then

So can you tell me again how this is hard to comprehend that Flacco is not the one winning on the road but benefits from a defense holding teams to under 17 points?

Brady on the road:

17 or less: 1-0

18 or more: 2-3

Rodgers on the road:

17 or less: 2-0

18 or more: 1-2(losses of 31-45 and 45-51)

P Manning on the road:

17 or less: 1-0

18 or more: 1-5

E Manning on the road:

17 or less: 3-0

18 or more: 1-2

Joe Flacco beat up your Dad or something?

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:lmao:

Because 17 points scored in the 70's/80's is the same as 17 points scored in the modern NFL. They don't make a big enough eyeroll icon for that statement.

It was your argument. :shrug:

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The road playoff stat is pretty misleading for as much as it's been brought up. Since Flacco entered the league in 2008...

Flacco is 6-0 in road playoff games when his defense gives up 17 points or less

Other QBs are 12-0 in road playoff games when their defense gives up 17 points or less

Flacco meanwhile is 2-4 in road playoff games where the defense gives up more than 17 points. The impressive stat here is that the Ravens' defense has held opponents to 17 points or less half as often as THE ENTIRE REST OF THE NFL, not that Flacco has won those games. Literally EVERY QB has won those games, Flacco's defense just has given him more of them.

Since Flacco entered the league, his W/L in road playoff games is right on par with, or slightly below the average playoff QB when the defense is factored in. 100% when allowing 17 points or less (equal to the NFL average), and 33% when allowing 18+ points (below the NFL average). Again, the only difference is that the defense has allotted far more games in the first category than any other team for Flacco.

So I guess 13 Tds and 0 INTs is misleading to? 166 consecutive passes without a TD is misleading?

You also conveniently omitted Flacco winning 38-35 as a huge dog in Denver where his defense was awful, and the Super Bowl 34-31. 331/3/0 and 289/3/0 in those two games.

Below are two AFC QB numbers in the playoffs. I know which guy I would take. Do you?

QBR  Yards Comp% TDs   INT GP88     2931  56   21    8   1484     3150  60   20   17   15

I didn't "conveniently" leave anything out. I was very explicit that I was talking about the road playoff W/L record specifically in that post.

Flacco played great in those two games you mentioned, and if you want to say that he's a great QB on the merits of two great games during a 7 year career than that's your prerogative. My qualm is with people throwing around this playoff road win stat as if it's some huge point in his favor. It's not. It's literally the same thing that every other QB has done over the same span, he's just had more opportunities.

Mark Sanchez is 3-0 in road playoff games where his defense allows 17 or fewer points and followed one of those wins up with a 200/3/0 performance on the road against New England in a 28-21 win. That doesn't make him a great quarterback.

In fact, Flacco and Sanchez have identical road playoff W/L percentages in the two buckets we're talking about here.

When defense allows 17 points or less

Flacco: 6-0 (1.00)

Sanchez: 3-0 (1.00)

When defense allows 18+ points

Flacco: 2-4 (.33)

Sanchez: 1-2 (.33)

Sanchez's road playoff W/L percentages are literally identical to Flacco's. The fact that Joe Flacco and Mark Sanchez are the "best" at winning road playoff games since they entered the league is a sign of how useless a metric it is when you don't account for the defense, not a sign of how great Flacco and Sanchez are.

Terry Bradshaw was 2-5 in the post-season when the opposing team scored 17 or more points.

His 4 Super Bowl titles, Super Bowl MVP, and Hall of Fame induction are all "misleading" because of it. Right? Here are some overall records of some great QBs when their teams allowed 17 or more points in a playoff game, and I won't even cherry-pick it by using "road games," because it would look worse than this (Montana was 1-5 for example).

Joe Montana was 6-6

Dan Marino was 5-10

Peyton Manning 6-12

Roger Staubach 2-6

Joe Flacco 3-4

Bradshaw 2-5

Of the HOF or soon to be HOF QBs I looked up, only Brady (10-8), Elway (10-7) and Roethlisberger (8-5) had winning records over their careers when the opposing team scored 17 or more. Not sure why you used 17 as if it was a gold standard metric, or you just cut and pasted from somewhere.

oops

:own3d:

For me his numbers speak volumes. You mentioned his numbers and FreeBaseGel wanted to toss out one year because it was really good but that seems kind of stupid to me. The dude is pretty good in the playoffs, even more impressive is that he's done it the majority of time on the road and in some pretty tough places to play. I don't like attributing W/L's wholly to QBs but for me the numbers speak for themself.

Edited by Peyton Marino

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The road playoff stat is pretty misleading for as much as it's been brought up. Since Flacco entered the league in 2008...

Flacco is 6-0 in road playoff games when his defense gives up 17 points or less

Other QBs are 12-0 in road playoff games when their defense gives up 17 points or less

Flacco meanwhile is 2-4 in road playoff games where the defense gives up more than 17 points. The impressive stat here is that the Ravens' defense has held opponents to 17 points or less half as often as THE ENTIRE REST OF THE NFL, not that Flacco has won those games. Literally EVERY QB has won those games, Flacco's defense just has given him more of them.

Since Flacco entered the league, his W/L in road playoff games is right on par with, or slightly below the average playoff QB when the defense is factored in. 100% when allowing 17 points or less (equal to the NFL average), and 33% when allowing 18+ points (below the NFL average). Again, the only difference is that the defense has allotted far more games in the first category than any other team for Flacco.

So I guess 13 Tds and 0 INTs is misleading to? 166 consecutive passes without a TD is misleading?

You also conveniently omitted Flacco winning 38-35 as a huge dog in Denver where his defense was awful, and the Super Bowl 34-31. 331/3/0 and 289/3/0 in those two games.

Below are two AFC QB numbers in the playoffs. I know which guy I would take. Do you?

QBR  Yards Comp% TDs   INT GP88     2931  56   21    8   1484     3150  60   20   17   15

I didn't "conveniently" leave anything out. I was very explicit that I was talking about the road playoff W/L record specifically in that post.

Flacco played great in those two games you mentioned, and if you want to say that he's a great QB on the merits of two great games during a 7 year career than that's your prerogative. My qualm is with people throwing around this playoff road win stat as if it's some huge point in his favor. It's not. It's literally the same thing that every other QB has done over the same span, he's just had more opportunities.

Mark Sanchez is 3-0 in road playoff games where his defense allows 17 or fewer points and followed one of those wins up with a 200/3/0 performance on the road against New England in a 28-21 win. That doesn't make him a great quarterback.

In fact, Flacco and Sanchez have identical road playoff W/L percentages in the two buckets we're talking about here.

When defense allows 17 points or less

Flacco: 6-0 (1.00)

Sanchez: 3-0 (1.00)

When defense allows 18+ points

Flacco: 2-4 (.33)

Sanchez: 1-2 (.33)

Sanchez's road playoff W/L percentages are literally identical to Flacco's. The fact that Joe Flacco and Mark Sanchez are the "best" at winning road playoff games since they entered the league is a sign of how useless a metric it is when you don't account for the defense, not a sign of how great Flacco and Sanchez are.

Terry Bradshaw was 2-5 in the post-season when the opposing team scored 17 or more points.

His 4 Super Bowl titles, Super Bowl MVP, and Hall of Fame induction are all "misleading" because of it. Right? Here are some overall records of some great QBs when their teams allowed 17 or more points in a playoff game, and I won't even cherry-pick it by using "road games," because it would look worse than this (Montana was 1-5 for example).

Joe Montana was 6-6

Dan Marino was 5-10

Peyton Manning 6-12

Roger Staubach 2-6

Joe Flacco 3-4

Bradshaw 2-5

Of the HOF or soon to be HOF QBs I looked up, only Brady (10-8), Elway (10-7) and Roethlisberger (8-5) had winning records over their careers when the opposing team scored 17 or more. Not sure why you used 17 as if it was a gold standard metric, or you just cut and pasted from somewhere.

oops

:own3d:

For me his numbers speak volumes. You mentioned his numbers and FreeBaseGel wanted to toss out one year because it was really good but that seems kind of stupid to me. The dude is pretty good in the playoffs, even more impressive is that he's done it the majority of time on the road and in some pretty tough places to play. I don't like attributing W/L's wholly to QBs but for me the numbers speak for themself.

Yeah, but his Defense was good as well...So he ain't done nuttin.

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