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*** Official Lost Season 6 ***

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For both of you, I gave just a couple notes that seem to backup that the ending/end game was planned out at the beginning.

How do you explain the fact that there was never a mention of a magic cave filled with light until, like, a few weeks ago? Even though it was apparently the most important feature of the island by far.
Ummmmm, because they didn't want to give away the ending? Just a hunch.
How would it have given away the ending for us to know there was a super-secret cave with a giant penis in it that had to be inserted into the rock vajayjay to keep the light shining?
I'm sure they didn't want to give away the ending, but the glowy cave was located near the bamboo field where Jack was flung, and where he eventually died. We know that's close to the site of the beach. It's likely that they would have come across it at some point, but they made no mention of it.

Why not? Because it was more important to have a sloppy plot hole and have the glowy cave and the bamboo field be near each other (where Jack woke up and died) than to have Jack die somewhere else, in a more remote location of the island where the glowy cave was less likely to be found.

Some people would rather have the logical fallacy and the closed narrative loop of Jack waking up and dying in the same place, others wouldn't.

I know you're just being obstinate here, Truck. You're smarter than this.

Jacob made it very clear that it couldn't be seen until it could be seen. I'm not sure why this is a hangup for some people in a fantasy/sci-fi show.

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Gotta ask here...

Is it THAT easy to become a tracker? Seems like everybody became one during their 100 days on the island. Locke I get, but Hurley isn't tracking anything but the price of size 54 pants.

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Gotta ask here...Is it THAT easy to become a tracker? Seems like everybody became one during their 100 days on the island. Locke I get, but Hurley isn't tracking anything but the price of size 54 pants.

All the crazy crap that happens on this show and this is what bugged my GF the most. It made her furious that Kate could track people.

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Gotta ask here...Is it THAT easy to become a tracker? Seems like everybody became one during their 100 days on the island. Locke I get, but Hurley isn't tracking anything but the price of size 54 pants.

All the crazy crap that happens on this show and this is what bugged my GF the most. It made her furious that Kate could track people.
Seems like it wouldn't be that hard. Kate spent a lot of time wandering around, so not too hard to pick up signs, i.e. broken branches/plants, foot prints, etc. Probably couldn't track someone that was trying not to be tracked, but I think I could spot the swath of destruction as Hurley tromped along to get his bucket o' mayo.

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I still feel the island was initially purgatory/limbo...Jack's eye closing was definitely mapped out from the beginning but you can't convince me that the initial intent wasn't that they were all dead all along...but because the entire internet picked up on that vibe early on...the writers had to scramble and come up with something else so they wouldn't be pinned down with their claim that the island was not purgatory and lose the viewers.

Agreed. Which is too bad.
Sorry guys, but I disagree completely. Did you guys watch the pilot again on Saturday? Just watch it again and watch the scene with Locke talking about backgammon as the world's oldest game and as light versus dark. Sure seems to mesh pretty damn well with the second to last episode of the entire series with Jacob/Samuel's ancient game they played which was obviously light versus dark. Throw in the polar bear, Sayid's remark about the compass not working a couple episodes in and Locke's encounter with smokey a couple episodes in and there are so many things they setup early on that didn't get explained until multiple seasons later.Sure, I don't think the entire series was written pre-pilot, but I disagree that they completely changed courses. Sorry, but there was no sign that they clearly were thinking purgatory and went away from it.For both of you, I gave just a couple notes that seem to backup that the ending/end game was planned out at the beginning. Where are your examples that they completely rewrote the entire series because of the "internet" folks catching on to it?
I watched the re-airing of the pilot and it was amazing how many secret things were going on, and all of them had been answered. Jin wanted Sun to button her shirt. Locke got up and looked odd. Kate kept asking how the marshall was doing. Kate said she would run from trouble and Jack said she wouldn't. Jack tells a story about his dad. Claire thought Boone was dating Shannon. Charlie's searching for his drugs. The smoke monster was moving around in the bushes and took the pilot right out of the plane, but didn't touch the candidates. It was kind of funny that they kept popping up bubbles to tell you which episode each mystery was resolved in - it was like the producers were saying, you think we don't answer anything? Watch this. It was a great idea for them to re-air it. I want to re-watch more episodes now. And I had given up hope that this show would end well earlier this season.

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would you guys rather have watched "FOUND"? I'm sure that fictitious show would have every question completely wrapped up by the finale, and everyone would be happy...right?

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For both of you, I gave just a couple notes that seem to backup that the ending/end game was planned out at the beginning.

How do you explain the fact that there was never a mention of a magic cave filled with light until, like, a few weeks ago? Even though it was apparently the most important feature of the island by far.
That wasn't even close to the first time we learned about the magnetic properties of the island. It was just a slow reveal. I think we saw light in a cave twice. Once was in the hatch - it was underneath the wall where they noticed a strong magnetism. Desmond went in there and turned the failsafe key and it stopped the flash. I'm not sure if that was the same light, but we saw a cave with a bright light in it. The other was the donkey wheel, which we actually saw a few times. We also learned that Widmore was searching for the island by monitoring for electromagnetic activity, and that's how they got the freighter close enough that they coudl fly Farraday to the island. We found out that the magnetism caused a big flash in the sky. We saw them time travel because of it. We knew that Farraday's experiments had to do with electromagnets and time travel. We learned that the wells on the island were dug by people searching for those pockets of magnetism. We learned a lot of stuff about the light, and the magnetism, but we didn't get to see it until close to the end of the show. Which is pretty normal for any kind of mystery show. You don't see an episode of House where they start by explaining how Lupus works. It's always Lupus at the end. If you want to complain about something we never learned, how about how a Commodore 64 could function near the most powerful electromagnet in the world, but zapping it with static electricity would destroy the one I had as a kid, and a magnet would make the screen turn purple. We also don't know much about how Michael talked to "Walt" on the computer - was that the Others? MIB? A lot of those things were left hanging (or maybe I just missed the answers along the way). But the big ones were actually written pretty well, looking back.

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Gotta ask here...Is it THAT easy to become a tracker? Seems like everybody became one during their 100 days on the island. Locke I get, but Hurley isn't tracking anything but the price of size 54 pants.

All the crazy crap that happens on this show and this is what bugged my GF the most. It made her furious that Kate could track people.
Seems like it wouldn't be that hard.
That was explained in one of the first episodes of Season 1. Kate said she spent a lot of time in the woods hiking and so forth with her dad when she was young. He taught her all of that. I don't see the problem with that. Explanation worked and they provided it very early on.I thought it was funny that Jack had no trouble tracking down FLocke in the finale. If I was going to nitpick, that's the one that would've jumped out at me. But that's sweating the small stuff in my opinion so I didn't let it bother me.

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I still feel the island was initially purgatory/limbo...Jack's eye closing was definitely mapped out from the beginning but you can't convince me that the initial intent wasn't that they were all dead all along...but because the entire internet picked up on that vibe early on...the writers had to scramble and come up with something else so they wouldn't be pinned down with their claim that the island was not purgatory and lose the viewers.

Agreed. Which is too bad.
Sorry guys, but I disagree completely. Did you guys watch the pilot again on Saturday? Just watch it again and watch the scene with Locke talking about backgammon as the world's oldest game and as light versus dark. Sure seems to mesh pretty damn well with the second to last episode of the entire series with Jacob/Samuel's ancient game they played which was obviously light versus dark. Throw in the polar bear, Sayid's remark about the compass not working a couple episodes in and Locke's encounter with smokey a couple episodes in and there are so many things they setup early on that didn't get explained until multiple seasons later.Sure, I don't think the entire series was written pre-pilot, but I disagree that they completely changed courses. Sorry, but there was no sign that they clearly were thinking purgatory and went away from it.For both of you, I gave just a couple notes that seem to backup that the ending/end game was planned out at the beginning. Where are your examples that they completely rewrote the entire series because of the "internet" folks catching on to it?
I watched the re-airing of the pilot and it was amazing how many secret things were going on, and all of them had been answered. Jin wanted Sun to button her shirt. Locke got up and looked odd. Kate kept asking how the marshall was doing. Kate said she would run from trouble and Jack said she wouldn't. Jack tells a story about his dad. Claire thought Boone was dating Shannon. Charlie's searching for his drugs. The smoke monster was moving around in the bushes and took the pilot right out of the plane, but didn't touch the candidates. It was kind of funny that they kept popping up bubbles to tell you which episode each mystery was resolved in - it was like the producers were saying, you think we don't answer anything? Watch this. It was a great idea for them to re-air it. I want to re-watch more episodes now. And I had given up hope that this show would end well earlier this season.
:mellow: They answered way more than the average viewer realizes. People just don't want to see it and it's easier to hide behind phrases such as "lazy writing."

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They answered way more than the average viewer realizes. People just don't want to see it and it's easier to hide behind phrases such as "lazy writing."

I've posted this a couple of times in this thread as well. I think they answered a lot more questions than people are giving them credit for doing. People don't have to like the answers - that's fine - but a lot of them were provided.

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They answered way more than the average viewer realizes. People just don't want to see it and it's easier to hide behind phrases such as "lazy writing."

I've posted this a couple of times in this thread as well. I think they answered a lot more questions than people are giving them credit for doing. People don't have to like the answers - that's fine - but a lot of them were provided.
Well, if you create 100 mysteries and answer 50 of them some people will look at that as answering a lot of questions.My problem is with the logic of what happened on the show more than any mysteries that were or were not explained. The writers basically threw a bunch of crap against the wall each week, some of which they kept and rest they hoped viewers would forget about. It seems to have worked so what can say.

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They answered way more than the average viewer realizes. People just don't want to see it and it's easier to hide behind phrases such as "lazy writing."

I've posted this a couple of times in this thread as well. I think they answered a lot more questions than people are giving them credit for doing. People don't have to like the answers - that's fine - but a lot of them were provided.
:thumbup: to both of you.

There were loads of answers given, but part of the fun and allure of Lost was to theorize. Human nature being what it is, we all believe our theories are better than what Hollywood writers can come up with, so when answers are provided that don't match up with a theory a person has come up with they get upset and call it "lazy writing" or a plot hole or whatever.

I'm not saying there weren't some serious clunker episodes in there, or that there weren't plot-holes, but people seem to be clinging to this "lazy writing" mantra as a way to give blanket criticism for all the things they didn't like about the show or the answers we were provided.

The ending gave us the answers we needed. If something wasn't answered it likely wasn't that important to the overall picture of the show, yet because there was so much mythology built into the show people wanted more. ABC's promos promising answers probably didn't help much, either.

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They answered way more than the average viewer realizes. People just don't want to see it and it's easier to hide behind phrases such as "lazy writing."

I've posted this a couple of times in this thread as well. I think they answered a lot more questions than people are giving them credit for doing. People don't have to like the answers - that's fine - but a lot of them were provided.
Well, if you create 100 mysteries and answer 50 of them some people will look at that as answering a lot of questions.My problem is with the logic of what happened on the show more than any mysteries that were or were not explained. The writers basically threw a bunch of crap against the wall each week, some of which they kept and rest they hoped viewers would forget about. It seems to have worked so what can say.
And if they create 100 mysteries and answer 80 of them, then some people will a) think that they only answered 40, b) ##### about the answers that they did see, and c) when it is pointed out to them that the questions that they thought weren't answered actually were, will start throwing out general terms like "lazy writing" and "logic holes." Edited by tribecalledjeff

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people seem to be clinging to this "lazy writing" mantra as a way to give blanket criticism for all the things they didn't like about the show or the answers we were provided.

I don't think I've ever described the writing as "lazy." In fact, I think the opposite. Lost was possibly the most ambitious writing attempt in television history. The idea of writing a series spanning over 100 hours in which there's just one long story, rather than individual episodes or short plot arcs was really bold. The number of characters and the complexity of the whole thing is really impressive. I wish more television shows would try to do groundbreaking stuff like this. I just think that the show ultimately failed to deliver on its promise.

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I still feel the island was initially purgatory/limbo...Jack's eye closing was definitely mapped out from the beginning but you can't convince me that the initial intent wasn't that they were all dead all along...but because the entire internet picked up on that vibe early on...the writers had to scramble and come up with something else so they wouldn't be pinned down with their claim that the island was not purgatory and lose the viewers.

Agreed. Which is too bad.
Sorry guys, but I disagree completely. Did you guys watch the pilot again on Saturday? Just watch it again and watch the scene with Locke talking about backgammon as the world's oldest game and as light versus dark. Sure seems to mesh pretty damn well with the second to last episode of the entire series with Jacob/Samuel's ancient game they played which was obviously light versus dark. Throw in the polar bear, Sayid's remark about the compass not working a couple episodes in and Locke's encounter with smokey a couple episodes in and there are so many things they setup early on that didn't get explained until multiple seasons later.
How does Jacob/MIB's game change that island being limbo? I'm not saying everything was changed...they just created that side-step as a way around the island simply being limbo itself. Jacob/MIB was definitely a planned part of the show from the beginning...they were there...on the island as part of their limbo test.

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people seem to be clinging to this "lazy writing" mantra as a way to give blanket criticism for all the things they didn't like about the show or the answers we were provided.

I don't think I've ever described the writing as "lazy." In fact, I think the opposite. Lost was possibly the most ambitious writing attempt in television history. The idea of writing a series spanning over 100 hours in which there's just one long story, rather than individual episodes or short plot arcs was really bold. The number of characters and the complexity of the whole thing is really impressive. I wish more television shows would try to do groundbreaking stuff like this. I just think that the show ultimately failed to deliver on its promise.
That wasn't directed at you, FWIW. What promise do you feel the show failed to deliver on?

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I still feel the island was initially purgatory/limbo...Jack's eye closing was definitely mapped out from the beginning but you can't convince me that the initial intent wasn't that they were all dead all along...but because the entire internet picked up on that vibe early on...the writers had to scramble and come up with something else so they wouldn't be pinned down with their claim that the island was not purgatory and lose the viewers.

Agreed. Which is too bad.
Sorry guys, but I disagree completely. Did you guys watch the pilot again on Saturday? Just watch it again and watch the scene with Locke talking about backgammon as the world's oldest game and as light versus dark. Sure seems to mesh pretty damn well with the second to last episode of the entire series with Jacob/Samuel's ancient game they played which was obviously light versus dark. Throw in the polar bear, Sayid's remark about the compass not working a couple episodes in and Locke's encounter with smokey a couple episodes in and there are so many things they setup early on that didn't get explained until multiple seasons later.
How does Jacob/MIB's game change that island being limbo? I'm not saying everything was changed...they just created that side-step as a way around the island simply being limbo itself. Jacob/MIB was definitely a planned part of the show from the beginning...they were there...on the island as part of their limbo test.
Well, from your posts, you seem very upset with the ending and feel like you were bamboozled and that they completely changed the story line. I don't think that is the case and pointed out many things early in the show (probably filmed and edited before the internet craziness started) that appear to maintain the story with which the show ended.I get that you think that, but I want to know what you think changed. There has to be something you can point to where it seems like the story changed from being limbo all the time to being real life. How about all that season 3 stuff where they got off the island and involved people who were never on the crash, i.e. wouldn't be in purgatory with them? Seems like that would have been setup before the shot season 3, huh? Well, if they changed over, then season 2 would have had to have been the turning point, correct? Seems like the whole introduction of Ethan in season 1 and the rest of the Others kidnapping Walt wouldn't make any sense in purgatory, but make sense in real life. WTF is a Dharma hatch doing in purgatory? Pretty sure they didn't introduce that to start that whole story arc because of internet rumors.Also, I wasn't saying the game wasn't concrete proof, but that Locke's discussion with Walt was pretty solid proof to me (among other things) that they really weren't making things up and changing the entire story to suit rumors on the internet. Do you remember all of the other rumors? Purgatory was a rumor, it wasn't even close to the only one.

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I still feel the island was initially purgatory/limbo...Jack's eye closing was definitely mapped out from the beginning but you can't convince me that the initial intent wasn't that they were all dead all along...but because the entire internet picked up on that vibe early on...the writers had to scramble and come up with something else so they wouldn't be pinned down with their claim that the island was not purgatory and lose the viewers.

Agreed. Which is too bad.
Sorry guys, but I disagree completely. Did you guys watch the pilot again on Saturday? Just watch it again and watch the scene with Locke talking about backgammon as the world's oldest game and as light versus dark. Sure seems to mesh pretty damn well with the second to last episode of the entire series with Jacob/Samuel's ancient game they played which was obviously light versus dark. Throw in the polar bear, Sayid's remark about the compass not working a couple episodes in and Locke's encounter with smokey a couple episodes in and there are so many things they setup early on that didn't get explained until multiple seasons later.Sure, I don't think the entire series was written pre-pilot, but I disagree that they completely changed courses. Sorry, but there was no sign that they clearly were thinking purgatory and went away from it.For both of you, I gave just a couple notes that seem to backup that the ending/end game was planned out at the beginning. Where are your examples that they completely rewrote the entire series because of the "internet" folks catching on to it?
I watched the re-airing of the pilot and it was amazing how many secret things were going on, and all of them had been answered. Jin wanted Sun to button her shirt. Locke got up and looked odd. Kate kept asking how the marshall was doing. Kate said she would run from trouble and Jack said she wouldn't. Jack tells a story about his dad. Claire thought Boone was dating Shannon. Charlie's searching for his drugs. The smoke monster was moving around in the bushes and took the pilot right out of the plane, but didn't touch the candidates. It was kind of funny that they kept popping up bubbles to tell you which episode each mystery was resolved in - it was like the producers were saying, you think we don't answer anything? Watch this. It was a great idea for them to re-air it. I want to re-watch more episodes now. And I had given up hope that this show would end well earlier this season.
:confused: They answered way more than the average viewer realizes. People just don't want to see it and it's easier to hide behind phrases such as "lazy writing."
Forget the answers. Just watching the pilot, without even the rest of the early season 1 episodes, made me realize how many main themes they laid out in front of us that we had no idea about because we didn't know all the backstory yet.

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BTW, it was a lot of fun folks. Can't believe I have been on this site for 6 years now and to be honest, most of it in here in these threads. I joined after lurking for a bit right after the pilot episode aired. I remember all of the great discussions, finding the easter eggs in the show and online. These threads were pretty damn entertaining, at least until this one, which wasn't all bad. Maybe someone will kickoff the official DVD release thread to discuss any new info they give us in there.

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I still feel the island was initially purgatory/limbo...Jack's eye closing was definitely mapped out from the beginning but you can't convince me that the initial intent wasn't that they were all dead all along...but because the entire internet picked up on that vibe early on...the writers had to scramble and come up with something else so they wouldn't be pinned down with their claim that the island was not purgatory and lose the viewers.

Agreed. Which is too bad.
Sorry guys, but I disagree completely. Did you guys watch the pilot again on Saturday? Just watch it again and watch the scene with Locke talking about backgammon as the world's oldest game and as light versus dark. Sure seems to mesh pretty damn well with the second to last episode of the entire series with Jacob/Samuel's ancient game they played which was obviously light versus dark. Throw in the polar bear, Sayid's remark about the compass not working a couple episodes in and Locke's encounter with smokey a couple episodes in and there are so many things they setup early on that didn't get explained until multiple seasons later.Sure, I don't think the entire series was written pre-pilot, but I disagree that they completely changed courses. Sorry, but there was no sign that they clearly were thinking purgatory and went away from it.For both of you, I gave just a couple notes that seem to backup that the ending/end game was planned out at the beginning. Where are your examples that they completely rewrote the entire series because of the "internet" folks catching on to it?
I meant that possibly the island itself was supposed to be purgatory. I never said they didn't intend to do most of the stuff they did.

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I still feel the island was initially purgatory/limbo...Jack's eye closing was definitely mapped out from the beginning but you can't convince me that the initial intent wasn't that they were all dead all along...but because the entire internet picked up on that vibe early on...the writers had to scramble and come up with something else so they wouldn't be pinned down with their claim that the island was not purgatory and lose the viewers.

Agreed. Which is too bad.
Sorry guys, but I disagree completely. Did you guys watch the pilot again on Saturday? Just watch it again and watch the scene with Locke talking about backgammon as the world's oldest game and as light versus dark. Sure seems to mesh pretty damn well with the second to last episode of the entire series with Jacob/Samuel's ancient game they played which was obviously light versus dark. Throw in the polar bear, Sayid's remark about the compass not working a couple episodes in and Locke's encounter with smokey a couple episodes in and there are so many things they setup early on that didn't get explained until multiple seasons later.Sure, I don't think the entire series was written pre-pilot, but I disagree that they completely changed courses. Sorry, but there was no sign that they clearly were thinking purgatory and went away from it.For both of you, I gave just a couple notes that seem to backup that the ending/end game was planned out at the beginning. Where are your examples that they completely rewrote the entire series because of the "internet" folks catching on to it?
I meant that possibly the island itself was supposed to be purgatory. I never said they didn't intend to do most of the stuff they did.
I understand. What makes you think that they did scramble and change ideas? I assume something we saw would have been negated if they switched gears like that, correct? I don't believe they did change gears and cited some examples why. Do you have any? Not trying to be an ###, just wondering if you saw something I didn't that made you think that season 1-2 was purgatory (assume they couldn't change any faster) and season 2/3+ wasn't purgatory anymore.

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I still feel the island was initially purgatory/limbo...Jack's eye closing was definitely mapped out from the beginning but you can't convince me that the initial intent wasn't that they were all dead all along...but because the entire internet picked up on that vibe early on...the writers had to scramble and come up with something else so they wouldn't be pinned down with their claim that the island was not purgatory and lose the viewers.

Agreed. Which is too bad.
Sorry guys, but I disagree completely. Did you guys watch the pilot again on Saturday? Just watch it again and watch the scene with Locke talking about backgammon as the world's oldest game and as light versus dark. Sure seems to mesh pretty damn well with the second to last episode of the entire series with Jacob/Samuel's ancient game they played which was obviously light versus dark. Throw in the polar bear, Sayid's remark about the compass not working a couple episodes in and Locke's encounter with smokey a couple episodes in and there are so many things they setup early on that didn't get explained until multiple seasons later.Sure, I don't think the entire series was written pre-pilot, but I disagree that they completely changed courses. Sorry, but there was no sign that they clearly were thinking purgatory and went away from it.For both of you, I gave just a couple notes that seem to backup that the ending/end game was planned out at the beginning. Where are your examples that they completely rewrote the entire series because of the "internet" folks catching on to it?
I meant that possibly the island itself was supposed to be purgatory. I never said they didn't intend to do most of the stuff they did.
I understand. What makes you think that they did scramble and change ideas? I assume something we saw would have been negated if they switched gears like that, correct? I don't believe they did change gears and cited some examples why. Do you have any? Not trying to be an ###, just wondering if you saw something I didn't that made you think that season 1-2 was purgatory (assume they couldn't change any faster) and season 2/3+ wasn't purgatory anymore.
The fact that the alternate universe wasn't introduced until season 6.

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The fact that the alternate universe wasn't introduced until season 6.

OK, so something you saw in season 6 is your proof that tdoss was correct that the writers changed purgatory to real life in season 1/2 in response to the internet rumors? Seriously? Well, no worries, we won't ever agree on this. You think they were supposed to all be dead all along and I don't.

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I still feel the island was initially purgatory/limbo...Jack's eye closing was definitely mapped out from the beginning but you can't convince me that the initial intent wasn't that they were all dead all along...but because the entire internet picked up on that vibe early on...the writers had to scramble and come up with something else so they wouldn't be pinned down with their claim that the island was not purgatory and lose the viewers.

Agreed. Which is too bad.
Sorry guys, but I disagree completely. Did you guys watch the pilot again on Saturday? Just watch it again and watch the scene with Locke talking about backgammon as the world's oldest game and as light versus dark. Sure seems to mesh pretty damn well with the second to last episode of the entire series with Jacob/Samuel's ancient game they played which was obviously light versus dark. Throw in the polar bear, Sayid's remark about the compass not working a couple episodes in and Locke's encounter with smokey a couple episodes in and there are so many things they setup early on that didn't get explained until multiple seasons later.
How does Jacob/MIB's game change that island being limbo? I'm not saying everything was changed...they just created that side-step as a way around the island simply being limbo itself. Jacob/MIB was definitely a planned part of the show from the beginning...they were there...on the island as part of their limbo test.
Well, from your posts, you seem very upset with the ending and feel like you were bamboozled and that they completely changed the story line. I don't think that is the case and pointed out many things early in the show (probably filmed and edited before the internet craziness started) that appear to maintain the story with which the show ended.I get that you think that, but I want to know what you think changed. There has to be something you can point to where it seems like the story changed from being limbo all the time to being real life. How about all that season 3 stuff where they got off the island and involved people who were never on the crash, i.e. wouldn't be in purgatory with them? Seems like that would have been setup before the shot season 3, huh? Well, if they changed over, then season 2 would have had to have been the turning point, correct? Seems like the whole introduction of Ethan in season 1 and the rest of the Others kidnapping Walt wouldn't make any sense in purgatory, but make sense in real life. WTF is a Dharma hatch doing in purgatory? Pretty sure they didn't introduce that to start that whole story arc because of internet rumors.Also, I wasn't saying the game wasn't concrete proof, but that Locke's discussion with Walt was pretty solid proof to me (among other things) that they really weren't making things up and changing the entire story to suit rumors on the internet. Do you remember all of the other rumors? Purgatory was a rumor, it wasn't even close to the only one.
I get what you're saying...I do...something about it's cohesiveness just does not sit well with me.I do believe Jacob and MIB were involved in a game that escalated to involving people (Dharma) and then people's souls at some point (Oceanic 815).I can't put my finger on it exactly but if they gave me some idea of the island's origin or maybe the origin of the "chosen one" for the island or something...it might help me get past this feeling of incompleteness. I don't need every mystery resolved but those seem like pretty damn big ones to me.

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The fact that the alternate universe wasn't introduced until season 6.

OK, so something you saw in season 6 is your proof that tdoss was correct that the writers changed purgatory to real life in season 1/2 in response to the internet rumors? Seriously? Well, no worries, we won't ever agree on this. You think they were supposed to all be dead all along and I don't.
Damn dude...is this the way you've responded in these types of threads in the past? I've never paid much attention to who's posting what but you're tiptoeing the jerk line pretty strongly with this type of sarcastic response.We're just having a discussion about a show here...not critiquing your child's performance in the talent show. Edited by tdoss

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The fact that the alternate universe wasn't introduced until season 6.

OK, so something you saw in season 6 is your proof that tdoss was correct that the writers changed purgatory to real life in season 1/2 in response to the internet rumors? Seriously? Well, no worries, we won't ever agree on this. You think they were supposed to all be dead all along and I don't.
Damn dude...is this the way you've responded in these types of threads in the past? I've never paid much attention to who's posting what but you're tiptoeing the jerk line pretty strongly with this type of sarcastic response.We're just having a discussion about a show here...not critiquing your child's performance in the talent show.
Usually not, and sorry for hurting anyone's feelings. Also, relax, when I said no worries, I meant it. We don't have to agree and it really doesn't matter, no sarchasm at all. Although, this thread has been awful. Previous season's threads were more about discussing what happened, what might happen and things we all missed. This thread has been a big ##### fest and most people that enjoyed the show and enjoyed the previous threads have been annoyed (myself included) that mosts posts in it were #####ing and whining. And unfortunately, these same people didn't just say their peace and explain it, they kept posting and kept posting. I am all for constructive criticism which can actually be discussed, but at least back it up, don't just whine over and over and over again.I am just trying to get down to why you feel like the story changed early on. Shuke agreed with your post that the writers intended for it to all be purgatory and then changed that on the fly because of us. I just don't see it and see no evidence that they did change. I just wanted to know if there is anything concrete. Do you watch V? I do and it is pretty damn obvious when a show gets rewritten during the first season to save it. Shows doing well don't do that. Also, someone in here posted about how arrogant the show folks sounded in an interview before the finale. I would tend to agree that they probably think very highly of themselves and I don't think they would cave to internet rumors.

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I don't think I've ever described the writing as "lazy." In fact, I think the opposite. Lost was possibly the most ambitious writing attempt in television history. The idea of writing a series spanning over 100 hours in which there's just one long story, rather than individual episodes or short plot arcs was really bold. The number of characters and the complexity of the whole thing is really impressive. I wish more television shows would try to do groundbreaking stuff like this. I just think that the show ultimately failed to deliver on its promise.

That wasn't directed at you, FWIW. What promise do you feel the show failed to deliver on?
Creating a single coherent supermovie.

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For both of you, I gave just a couple notes that seem to backup that the ending/end game was planned out at the beginning.

How do you explain the fact that there was never a mention of a magic cave filled with light until, like, a few weeks ago? Even though it was apparently the most important feature of the island by far.
Ummmmm, because they didn't want to give away the ending? Just a hunch.
How would it have given away the ending for us to know there was a super-secret cave with a giant penis in it that had to be inserted into the rock vajayjay to keep the light shining?
I'm sure they didn't want to give away the ending, but the glowy cave was located near the bamboo field where Jack was flung, and where he eventually died. We know that's close to the site of the beach. It's likely that they would have come across it at some point, but they made no mention of it.Why not? Because it was more important to have a sloppy plot hole and have the glowy cave and the bamboo field be near each other (where Jack woke up and died) than to have Jack die somewhere else, in a more remote location of the island where the glowy cave was less likely to be found.Some people would rather have the logical fallacy and the closed narrative loop of Jack waking up and dying in the same place, others wouldn't.
maybe you missed the part in "across the sea" where MIB said he'd been looking for that exact site for years and couldn't find it. Jacob could only get there because Mother allowed him the information to get there. Ditto with Jack after he became the protector.

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maybe you missed the part in "across the sea" where MIB said he'd been looking for that exact site for years and couldn't find it. Jacob could only get there because Mother allowed him the information to get there. Ditto with Jack after he became the protector.

Well that's convenient.

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maybe you missed the part in "across the sea" where MIB said he'd been looking for that exact site for years and couldn't find it. Jacob could only get there because Mother allowed him the information to get there. Ditto with Jack after he became the protector.

Well that's convenient.
Seems entirely consistent with the "mystery" of the island to me. There were plenty of "convenient" things that happened on the island dating back to Season 1. If you're going to introduce a place where magical things happen I think we then have to accept that as an axiom and not try to pick every single thing apart looking for a logical answer. It's kind of like "King Kong" to me. I accept the fact that there's a 50-foot ape on Skull Island without having to have it explained to me why or how it's possible. Once I accept that, the story then can go from there. But if I'm going to spend every second obsessing over how it's possible for a 50-foot ape to exist on this island then the story is going to go nowhere because I'm going to be fighting it at every turn.That said, I don't think the producers had this all mapped out from the start. They've acknowledged that they were spinning their wheels during Season 3 and it wasn't until they had the end date finalized that they began really mapping things out. I think if anything it was when the series conclusion was decided that they perhaps sat down and really tried to work on what they wanted to do going forward. Maybe they had some general ideas they followed dating back to Season 1 but my take is it wasn't until they knew when the series was going to end that they figured out how they were going to proceed. And that's probably why some of the key issues of the first two-plus seasons weren't followed up more thoroughly if at all. Edited by packersfan

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maybe you missed the part in "across the sea" where MIB said he'd been looking for that exact site for years and couldn't find it. Jacob could only get there because Mother allowed him the information to get there. Ditto with Jack after he became the protector.

Well that's convenient.
It may have been a convenient plot device, but it's consistent with the rest of the show. The cabin where Jacob was supposed to be was hidden for a long time. IIRC the MIB couldn't go to the place where he ended up getting Ben to kill Jacob, which is why he had to take the form of Locke, and have Richard lead him there. And the island revealed the location of the hatch to Locke, which is why he started obsessing over it. And the island was hidden from everyone else. So there's some precedent for the island to hide or reveal things. And we know that Jacob had powers as the protector of the island since he could call people to the island and make them immortal, so the idea that he or his mother would have been able to hide the cave seems consistent with the rules we learned in the show.

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maybe you missed the part in "across the sea" where MIB said he'd been looking for that exact site for years and couldn't find it. Jacob could only get there because Mother allowed him the information to get there. Ditto with Jack after he became the protector.

Well that's convenient.
It may have been a convenient plot device, but it's consistent with the rest of the show. The cabin where Jacob was supposed to be was hidden for a long time. IIRC the MIB couldn't go to the place where he ended up getting Ben to kill Jacob, which is why he had to take the form of Locke, and have Richard lead him there. And the island revealed the location of the hatch to Locke, which is why he started obsessing over it. And the island was hidden from everyone else. So there's some precedent for the island to hide or reveal things. And we know that Jacob had powers as the protector of the island since he could call people to the island and make them immortal, so the idea that he or his mother would have been able to hide the cave seems consistent with the rules we learned in the show.
Why does the cave need to be protected if nobody can find it?

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Gotta ask here...Is it THAT easy to become a tracker? Seems like everybody became one during their 100 days on the island. Locke I get, but Hurley isn't tracking anything but the price of size 54 pants.

All the crazy crap that happens on this show and this is what bugged my GF the most. It made her furious that Kate could track people.
Seems like it wouldn't be that hard.
That was explained in one of the first episodes of Season 1. Kate said she spent a lot of time in the woods hiking and so forth with her dad when she was young. He taught her all of that. I don't see the problem with that. Explanation worked and they provided it very early on.I thought it was funny that Jack had no trouble tracking down FLocke in the finale. If I was going to nitpick, that's the one that would've jumped out at me. But that's sweating the small stuff in my opinion so I didn't let it bother me.
The one that caught my attention (and had me raise the question) was a throwaway line in the final episodes by Kate to Sawyer. Something along the lines of "if we go to X, will you be able to track us?"

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maybe you missed the part in "across the sea" where MIB said he'd been looking for that exact site for years and couldn't find it. Jacob could only get there because Mother allowed him the information to get there. Ditto with Jack after he became the protector.

Well that's convenient.
It may have been a convenient plot device, but it's consistent with the rest of the show. The cabin where Jacob was supposed to be was hidden for a long time. IIRC the MIB couldn't go to the place where he ended up getting Ben to kill Jacob, which is why he had to take the form of Locke, and have Richard lead him there. And the island revealed the location of the hatch to Locke, which is why he started obsessing over it. And the island was hidden from everyone else. So there's some precedent for the island to hide or reveal things. And we know that Jacob had powers as the protector of the island since he could call people to the island and make them immortal, so the idea that he or his mother would have been able to hide the cave seems consistent with the rules we learned in the show.
Why does the cave need to be protected if nobody can find it?
The rules appeared to change rather dramatically when Jacob was killed. So it's possible the cave was just fine as long as the protector was alive.

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maybe you missed the part in "across the sea" where MIB said he'd been looking for that exact site for years and couldn't find it. Jacob could only get there because Mother allowed him the information to get there. Ditto with Jack after he became the protector.

Well that's convenient.
It may have been a convenient plot device, but it's consistent with the rest of the show. The cabin where Jacob was supposed to be was hidden for a long time. IIRC the MIB couldn't go to the place where he ended up getting Ben to kill Jacob, which is why he had to take the form of Locke, and have Richard lead him there. And the island revealed the location of the hatch to Locke, which is why he started obsessing over it. And the island was hidden from everyone else. So there's some precedent for the island to hide or reveal things. And we know that Jacob had powers as the protector of the island since he could call people to the island and make them immortal, so the idea that he or his mother would have been able to hide the cave seems consistent with the rules we learned in the show.
Why does the cave need to be protected if nobody can find it?
:thumbup:

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maybe you missed the part in "across the sea" where MIB said he'd been looking for that exact site for years and couldn't find it. Jacob could only get there because Mother allowed him the information to get there. Ditto with Jack after he became the protector.

Well that's convenient.
You thought that somehow MIB just hadn't stumbled across that place in the 2000 or so years he was looking?

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maybe you missed the part in "across the sea" where MIB said he'd been looking for that exact site for years and couldn't find it. Jacob could only get there because Mother allowed him the information to get there. Ditto with Jack after he became the protector.

Well that's convenient.
You thought that somehow MIB just hadn't stumbled across that place in the 2000 or so years he was looking?
I didn't even know the cave existed until that episode. That's the whole point. Here's how things seemed to go down:Writer #1: OK, the show's almost finished, how are we going to wrap up all this crazy ####?Writer #2: What about if we make up a special magic cave on the island that controls the fate of the world, and Jacob has been protecting it from smoky?Writer #1: Hmmm, that sounds interesting. But why hasn't anyone ever seen the cave before?Writer #2: Ummm, because it's invisible to everyone but Jacob?Writer #1: OK, we're running out of time. Let's go with that.

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maybe you missed the part in "across the sea" where MIB said he'd been looking for that exact site for years and couldn't find it. Jacob could only get there because Mother allowed him the information to get there. Ditto with Jack after he became the protector.

Well that's convenient.
You thought that somehow MIB just hadn't stumbled across that place in the 2000 or so years he was looking?
I didn't even know the cave existed until that episode. That's the whole point. Here's how things seemed to go down:Writer #1: OK, the show's almost finished, how are we going to wrap up all this crazy ####?Writer #2: What about if we make up a special magic cave on the island that controls the fate of the world, and Jacob has been protecting it from smoky?Writer #1: Hmmm, that sounds interesting. But why hasn't anyone ever seen the cave before?Writer #2: Ummm, because it's invisible to everyone but Jacob?Writer #1: OK, we're running out of time. Let's go with that.
5 episodes ago they introduced an invisible lighthouse that nobody had seen up until that point 3 seasons ago they introduced an underground station with a giant f'n cable going from the jungle to the ocean that nobody had ever seen before6 seasons ago they introduced a hatch buried in the ground that nobody had ever seen before...

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5 episodes ago they introduced an invisible lighthouse that nobody had seen up until that point 3 seasons ago they introduced an underground station with a giant f'n cable going from the jungle to the ocean that nobody had ever seen before6 seasons ago they introduced a hatch buried in the ground that nobody had ever seen before...

The invisible lighthouse was just as dumb as the invisible cave. And it seems to have had no real purpose. And they just mentioned it in the middle of the final season. Not sure you're helping your case here.The other stuff wasn't invisible, it was just difficult to locate. The hatch wasn't something "nobody had ever seen before." The Losties hadn't seen it because it was buried underground and they had only been on the island for like a month at that point, but the Dharma initiative had most surely seen it. Desmond was even living in there. It wasn't invisible. I'd have to go back and watch the stuff with the underwater hatch because I don't remember the details, but I think I'd have a similar response that I just had about the hatch.In any case, introducing a new place in season one or season three isn't really problematic. It's introducing the most important place in the world after 95% of the show has finished that's the problem.

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maybe you missed the part in "across the sea" where MIB said he'd been looking for that exact site for years and couldn't find it. Jacob could only get there because Mother allowed him the information to get there. Ditto with Jack after he became the protector.

Well that's convenient.
It may have been a convenient plot device, but it's consistent with the rest of the show. The cabin where Jacob was supposed to be was hidden for a long time. IIRC the MIB couldn't go to the place where he ended up getting Ben to kill Jacob, which is why he had to take the form of Locke, and have Richard lead him there. And the island revealed the location of the hatch to Locke, which is why he started obsessing over it. And the island was hidden from everyone else. So there's some precedent for the island to hide or reveal things. And we know that Jacob had powers as the protector of the island since he could call people to the island and make them immortal, so the idea that he or his mother would have been able to hide the cave seems consistent with the rules we learned in the show.
Why does the cave need to be protected if nobody can find it?
Because layered security is better than putting all of your eggs in one basket. Why do Quicken or Outlook have passwords if you can't get onto them without logging in to the computer? Why have a vault in the bank if you have guards and cameras out front? Why were there six different physical and computer locks in addition to the electromagnetic lock on the vault in Die Hard, prompting Hans Gruber to develop a plan to get the FBI to shut down the electrical grid? And it turns out that MIB was able to find the cave. He did so two different ways - once a long time ago, when he went to set up the donkey wheel, and the other when Jacob died. The show didn't explain the details of how the cave became visible - was it because Jacob decided it should be? Because he died? Was it because Jack was allowed to go there and to bring people there as the island's protector? I don't think that was explicitly stated, but clearly there were some criteria that would make the cave approachable. It's also worth noting that Jacob wasn't just protecting the light in the cave. He was also protecting the world from the MIB.

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5 episodes ago they introduced an invisible lighthouse that nobody had seen up until that point 3 seasons ago they introduced an underground station with a giant f'n cable going from the jungle to the ocean that nobody had ever seen before6 seasons ago they introduced a hatch buried in the ground that nobody had ever seen before...

The invisible lighthouse was just as dumb as the invisible cave. And it seems to have had no real purpose. And they just mentioned it in the middle of the final season. Not sure you're helping your case here.The other stuff wasn't invisible, it was just difficult to locate. The hatch wasn't something "nobody had ever seen before." The Losties hadn't seen it because it was buried underground and they had only been on the island for like a month at that point, but the Dharma initiative had most surely seen it. Desmond was even living in there. It wasn't invisible. I'd have to go back and watch the stuff with the underwater hatch because I don't remember the details, but I think I'd have a similar response that I just had about the hatch.In any case, introducing a new place in season one or season three isn't really problematic. It's introducing the most important place in the world after 95% of the show has finished that's the problem.
The lighthouse plotline served a couple purposes. It was one of the many details in the mythology of what Jacob could do as protector of the island. It gave us an idea of what the numbers meant, and that Jacob knew who he was visiting before he visited them. It was a step in Jack understanding that Jacob had been watching him for a long time and that this really was his purpose. I didn't much care for the episode when it aired, but it makes sense to me now in the context of the show. I disagree that they introduced the "most important place in the world" after 95% of the show had been finished. They introduced the island as the "most important place in the world" early and often throughout the show. They hinted at the electromagnetism that made the island so important since season two, and maybe earlier. I'm glad that they revealed it late in the show, because that was one of the bigger mysteries in the show and one of the things we were always trying to figure out. I would have preferred something cooler than a cave with a steep dropoff into a pool with a light-up rock in it, but part of the epic we witnessed was an exploration of the island, and it's fitting that one of the last things that was revealed was the cave. Were you upset in Star Wars when the rebels found the port on the plans for the Death Star that they could use to blow the whole thing up? Why didn't they reveal that earlier?

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I disagree that they introduced the "most important place in the world" after 95% of the show had been finished. They introduced the island as the "most important place in the world" early and often throughout the show. They hinted at the electromagnetism that made the island so important since season two, and maybe earlier. I'm glad that they revealed it late in the show, because that was one of the bigger mysteries in the show and one of the things we were always trying to figure out. I would have preferred something cooler than a cave with a steep dropoff into a pool with a light-up rock in it, but part of the epic we witnessed was an exploration of the island, and it's fitting that one of the last things that was revealed was the cave. Were you upset in Star Wars when the rebels found the port on the plans for the Death Star that they could use to blow the whole thing up? Why didn't they reveal that earlier?

The island was apparently important because it had the cave on it. Discussing the fact that the island was strange in general doesn't seem to serve the same purpose to me.I don't really care for the Star Wars movies. I don't think that example is going to get you far with me.

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maybe you missed the part in "across the sea" where MIB said he'd been looking for that exact site for years and couldn't find it. Jacob could only get there because Mother allowed him the information to get there. Ditto with Jack after he became the protector.

Well that's convenient.
It may have been a convenient plot device, but it's consistent with the rest of the show. The cabin where Jacob was supposed to be was hidden for a long time. IIRC the MIB couldn't go to the place where he ended up getting Ben to kill Jacob, which is why he had to take the form of Locke, and have Richard lead him there. And the island revealed the location of the hatch to Locke, which is why he started obsessing over it. And the island was hidden from everyone else. So there's some precedent for the island to hide or reveal things. And we know that Jacob had powers as the protector of the island since he could call people to the island and make them immortal, so the idea that he or his mother would have been able to hide the cave seems consistent with the rules we learned in the show.
Why does the cave need to be protected if nobody can find it?
no one could find the island because that was Jacob's rule. People obviously found it before - hence Jacob's true mother and the villagers wrecking on the island before Jacob was born. When Jacob took the reigns, he decided that he wanted to limit access to the island as a rule of the "game" he was playing with MIB, and so he only allowed visitation from those he wanted on the island.Obviously, given that there was a Smoke monster on the island, Jacob had to be able to hide the cave.

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The fact that the alternate universe wasn't introduced until season 6.

OK, so something you saw in season 6 is your proof that tdoss was correct that the writers changed purgatory to real life in season 1/2 in response to the internet rumors? Seriously? Well, no worries, we won't ever agree on this. You think they were supposed to all be dead all along and I don't.
Damn dude...is this the way you've responded in these types of threads in the past? I've never paid much attention to who's posting what but you're tiptoeing the jerk line pretty strongly with this type of sarcastic response.We're just having a discussion about a show here...not critiquing your child's performance in the talent show.
Usually not, and sorry for hurting anyone's feelings. Also, relax, when I said no worries, I meant it. We don't have to agree and it really doesn't matter, no sarchasm at all. Although, this thread has been awful. Previous season's threads were more about discussing what happened, what might happen and things we all missed. This thread has been a big ##### fest and most people that enjoyed the show and enjoyed the previous threads have been annoyed (myself included) that mosts posts in it were #####ing and whining. And unfortunately, these same people didn't just say their peace and explain it, they kept posting and kept posting. I am all for constructive criticism which can actually be discussed, but at least back it up, don't just whine over and over and over again.I am just trying to get down to why you feel like the story changed early on. Shuke agreed with your post that the writers intended for it to all be purgatory and then changed that on the fly because of us. I just don't see it and see no evidence that they did change. I just wanted to know if there is anything concrete. Do you watch V? I do and it is pretty damn obvious when a show gets rewritten during the first season to save it. Shows doing well don't do that. Also, someone in here posted about how arrogant the show folks sounded in an interview before the finale. I would tend to agree that they probably think very highly of themselves and I don't think they would cave to internet rumors.
And I contend that they think so highly of themselves that they couldn't admit to telegraphing their punches early on so they switched gears...or donkey wheels...whathaveyou.

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would you guys rather have watched "FOUND"? I'm sure that fictitious show would have every question completely wrapped up by the finale, and everyone would be happy...right?

And then maybe they could open up a resort and have the Globetrotters come to the island to play a bunch of robots!

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