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wadegarrett

**** CLEVELAND BROWNS THREAD ****

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That's a straw man argument. I didn't say you'd be winning championships playing that style. But it wins. The Chiefs had little in the passing game and no defense, and still won a lot just by running the ball.

It works like this:

1. You want a franchise QB to open up your offense.

2. If you don't have a franchise QB, you better run the football.

The Browns are doing it wrong by passing a ton when they don't have a franchise QB.

I don't want to just win, I want to win championships. Would you rather have 5 4-12 seasons then a championship, or 5 12-4 seasons but no championship? I'd take the former :shrug:

I think it's pretty tough to have five 4-12 seasons then a championship. Is there an example of this model that you could point out?

It's just hyperbole to illustrate my point :) My basic point is that you don't win a championship without an elite quarterback (which I think is very very difficult to refute). You can build the lines first then get one, or you can get one then build the lines, it doesn't matter. But having just an elite running game (which is what Fensalk wants) doesn't correlate to championships.

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That's a straw man argument. I didn't say you'd be winning championships playing that style. But it wins. The Chiefs had little in the passing game and no defense, and still won a lot just by running the ball.

It works like this:

1. You want a franchise QB to open up your offense.

2. If you don't have a franchise QB, you better run the football.

The Browns are doing it wrong by passing a ton when they don't have a franchise QB.

I don't want to just win, I want to win championships. Would you rather have 5 4-12 seasons then a championship, or 5 12-4 seasons but no championship? I'd take the former :shrug:

I think it's pretty tough to have five 4-12 seasons then a championship. Is there an example of this model that you could point out?

SanFrancisco was 5-9, 2-14, 2-14, 6-10 then Super Bowl Champion.

NY Jets had 7 non winning seasons, then were 8-5-1, then won the Super Bowl the next season.

St Louis Rams were 5-11, 3-13, 6-10, 5-11, 4-12, 7-9, 6-10, 5-11, 4-12 then Super Bowl Champion.

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Is it just me, or does this list make it look like Cleveland would get the 3rd pick if the Vikings win this weekend?

Wow, looks like it? If that happens and the Colts win, we might have a shot at Luck.
I wonder if the Jags would jump ahead of us if they would lose to the Colts? How much would that affect the winning % tie-breaker? If we can get Luck for a reasonable price, that would be pretty awesome.

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That's a straw man argument. I didn't say you'd be winning championships playing that style. But it wins. The Chiefs had little in the passing game and no defense, and still won a lot just by running the ball.

It works like this:

1. You want a franchise QB to open up your offense.

2. If you don't have a franchise QB, you better run the football.

The Browns are doing it wrong by passing a ton when they don't have a franchise QB.

I don't want to just win, I want to win championships. Would you rather have 5 4-12 seasons then a championship, or 5 12-4 seasons but no championship? I'd take the former :shrug:
I'm not sure what you are saying. Of course we all want a franchise QB. You can't just pull a franchise QB out of a hat, though. If you don't have one, and don't have a realistic chance of getting one, build a strong running game and be run-first. That's what makes the 2011 Browns so mystifying. They clearly entered this season without a franchise QB, yet decided to be pass-first.

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That's a straw man argument. I didn't say you'd be winning championships playing that style. But it wins. The Chiefs had little in the passing game and no defense, and still won a lot just by running the ball.

It works like this:

1. You want a franchise QB to open up your offense.

2. If you don't have a franchise QB, you better run the football.

The Browns are doing it wrong by passing a ton when they don't have a franchise QB.

I don't want to just win, I want to win championships. Would you rather have 5 4-12 seasons then a championship, or 5 12-4 seasons but no championship? I'd take the former :shrug:

I think it's pretty tough to have five 4-12 seasons then a championship. Is there an example of this model that you could point out?

SanFrancisco was 5-9, 2-14, 2-14, 6-10 then Super Bowl Champion.

NY Jets had 7 non winning seasons, then were 8-5-1, then won the Super Bowl the next season.

St Louis Rams were 5-11, 3-13, 6-10, 5-11, 4-12, 7-9, 6-10, 5-11, 4-12 then Super Bowl Champion.

Thanks! Was there anything in common with their turnarounds?

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What I heard lately...

The Browns have two scenarios for the 2012 NFL draft:

1. The Rams secure the #1 pick with a loss and a Colts with over the Jaguars in week 17. The Rams are interested in trading the pick but not too far down. The Browns have a lot to offer with two #1 picks this year. Talks would heat up between the two teams. The Rams are not interested in trading Bradford and not interested in drafting Luck. The Browns are definitely interested in trading up and drafting Luck. Expect the Browns to send their first round choice in 2011 and 2012, plus a second or third round choice.

2. The Colts secure the #1 pick and the Rams have the #2 pick. The Colts will select Luck. The Rams do not want to draft Griff either and will try to trade the pick. The Browns do NOT have much interest in Griff. They feel he's not a great fit for their offense. The Browns highly valued Matt Barkley, who now is staying at USC. In this scenario, the Browns make no trades and select RB Trent Richardson. The Browns have pretty much made up their mind about Peyton Hillis. He wants too much money, is injury-prone, and is a poor fit for the offense they want to run. They want a back that has speed and can run to the outside and get yards after the catch. Hillis is gone unless he lowers his contract demands. Richardson is an excellent fit for the Browns offense.

Please, please, please, please, please don't draft Richardson with the first pick in round 1. They are going to release Hillis, to prove a point, and to open up a hole that they have to spend a top draft pick on. I hate that idea. Work out your differences for the good of the team, and to try to stop the cycle of losing.

Its a common thing for teams that change head coaches. The new coach brings in a new philosophy and it requires different players. Sometimes it can greatly benefit a current player on the team (like D'Qwell Jackson). Other times, the team has to shed talent to get players that fit the new system (Hillis). This is why its a good idea to give a new head coach 4 years. He's going to have to get "his" players to run his offense and defense.

For the Browns, its especially tough because they change head coaches so often. We went from Crennel, to 2 years of Mangini, to Shurmur. That's an awful lot of cross-currents, of different schemes and different players that fit (or don't fit) those schemes. It should take a few years to reorganize everything under one philosophy.

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That's a straw man argument. I didn't say you'd be winning championships playing that style. But it wins. The Chiefs had little in the passing game and no defense, and still won a lot just by running the ball.

It works like this:

1. You want a franchise QB to open up your offense.

2. If you don't have a franchise QB, you better run the football.

The Browns are doing it wrong by passing a ton when they don't have a franchise QB.

I don't want to just win, I want to win championships. Would you rather have 5 4-12 seasons then a championship, or 5 12-4 seasons but no championship? I'd take the former :shrug:

I think it's pretty tough to have five 4-12 seasons then a championship. Is there an example of this model that you could point out?

SanFrancisco was 5-9, 2-14, 2-14, 6-10 then Super Bowl Champion.

NY Jets had 7 non winning seasons, then were 8-5-1, then won the Super Bowl the next season.

St Louis Rams were 5-11, 3-13, 6-10, 5-11, 4-12, 7-9, 6-10, 5-11, 4-12 then Super Bowl Champion.

Thanks! Was there anything in common with their turnarounds?

The Rams case was once in a lifetime, because Kurt Warner literally came from being a supermarket stockboy to franchise QB. Absolutely no-one projected them to be that good. Joe Montana kinda came out of nowhere as well, but was a star QB in college, a third round pick, and won the job in 1981 and was so ridiculously clutch. Joe Namath was a franchise QB his first 5 year in the league, winning Super Bowl 3 in 1969. But from 1970 on he was extremely injury-prone and never the same player.

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What I heard lately...

The Browns have two scenarios for the 2012 NFL draft:

1. The Rams secure the #1 pick with a loss and a Colts with over the Jaguars in week 17. The Rams are interested in trading the pick but not too far down. The Browns have a lot to offer with two #1 picks this year. Talks would heat up between the two teams. The Rams are not interested in trading Bradford and not interested in drafting Luck. The Browns are definitely interested in trading up and drafting Luck. Expect the Browns to send their first round choice in 2011 and 2012, plus a second or third round choice.

2. The Colts secure the #1 pick and the Rams have the #2 pick. The Colts will select Luck. The Rams do not want to draft Griff either and will try to trade the pick. The Browns do NOT have much interest in Griff. They feel he's not a great fit for their offense. The Browns highly valued Matt Barkley, who now is staying at USC. In this scenario, the Browns make no trades and select RB Trent Richardson. The Browns have pretty much made up their mind about Peyton Hillis. He wants too much money, is injury-prone, and is a poor fit for the offense they want to run. They want a back that has speed and can run to the outside and get yards after the catch. Hillis is gone unless he lowers his contract demands. Richardson is an excellent fit for the Browns offense.

Please, please, please, please, please don't draft Richardson with the first pick in round 1. They are going to release Hillis, to prove a point, and to open up a hole that they have to spend a top draft pick on. I hate that idea. Work out your differences for the good of the team, and to try to stop the cycle of losing.

Its a common thing for teams that change head coaches. The new coach brings in a new philosophy and it requires different players. Sometimes it can greatly benefit a current player on the team (like D'Qwell Jackson). Other times, the team has to shed talent to get players that fit the new system (Hillis). This is why its a good idea to give a new head coach 4 years. He's going to have to get "his" players to run his offense and defense.

For the Browns, its especially tough because they change head coaches so often. We went from Crennel, to 2 years of Mangini, to Shurmur. That's an awful lot of cross-currents, of different schemes and different players that fit (or don't fit) those schemes. It should take a few years to reorganize everything under one philosophy.

I'm not sure how Hillis doesn't fit. I guess that's what I'm saying. He can be very successful in an offense that likes to pass (61 receptions in 2010). If they had any kind of passing attack at all, Hillis would be a 1,200 yard rusher with another 4-500 yards receiving. I'm not sure how it's worth giving that up so you can use a top draft pick on that position.

Yes, I understand what you're saying. That's how the NFL works. I just think it's the wrong decision with this roster.

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What I heard lately...

The Browns have two scenarios for the 2012 NFL draft:

1. The Rams secure the #1 pick with a loss and a Colts with over the Jaguars in week 17. The Rams are interested in trading the pick but not too far down. The Browns have a lot to offer with two #1 picks this year. Talks would heat up between the two teams. The Rams are not interested in trading Bradford and not interested in drafting Luck. The Browns are definitely interested in trading up and drafting Luck. Expect the Browns to send their first round choice in 2011 and 2012, plus a second or third round choice.

2. The Colts secure the #1 pick and the Rams have the #2 pick. The Colts will select Luck. The Rams do not want to draft Griff either and will try to trade the pick. The Browns do NOT have much interest in Griff. They feel he's not a great fit for their offense. The Browns highly valued Matt Barkley, who now is staying at USC. In this scenario, the Browns make no trades and select RB Trent Richardson. The Browns have pretty much made up their mind about Peyton Hillis. He wants too much money, is injury-prone, and is a poor fit for the offense they want to run. They want a back that has speed and can run to the outside and get yards after the catch. Hillis is gone unless he lowers his contract demands. Richardson is an excellent fit for the Browns offense.

Please, please, please, please, please don't draft Richardson with the first pick in round 1. They are going to release Hillis, to prove a point, and to open up a hole that they have to spend a top draft pick on. I hate that idea. Work out your differences for the good of the team, and to try to stop the cycle of losing.

Its a common thing for teams that change head coaches. The new coach brings in a new philosophy and it requires different players. Sometimes it can greatly benefit a current player on the team (like D'Qwell Jackson). Other times, the team has to shed talent to get players that fit the new system (Hillis). This is why its a good idea to give a new head coach 4 years. He's going to have to get "his" players to run his offense and defense.

For the Browns, its especially tough because they change head coaches so often. We went from Crennel, to 2 years of Mangini, to Shurmur. That's an awful lot of cross-currents, of different schemes and different players that fit (or don't fit) those schemes. It should take a few years to reorganize everything under one philosophy.

I'm not sure how Hillis doesn't fit. I guess that's what I'm saying. He can be very successful in an offense that likes to pass (61 receptions in 2010). If they had any kind of passing attack at all, Hillis would be a 1,200 yard rusher with another 4-500 yards receiving. I'm not sure how it's worth giving that up so you can use a top draft pick on that position.

Yes, I understand what you're saying. That's how the NFL works. I just think it's the wrong decision with this roster.

I heard two specific reasons given by the organization as to why Hillis doesn't fit.

1. He is unable to run to the outside. Shurmur's WCO needs to feature an RB that can run to the outside. They feel the offense gets too predictable when you are forced to plow straight ahead all the time, as they feel they are with Hillis.

2. Hillis has nice hands but doesn't get many yards after the catch. They want a back that can provide more in that department.

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What I heard lately...

The Browns have two scenarios for the 2012 NFL draft:

1. The Rams secure the #1 pick with a loss and a Colts with over the Jaguars in week 17. The Rams are interested in trading the pick but not too far down. The Browns have a lot to offer with two #1 picks this year. Talks would heat up between the two teams. The Rams are not interested in trading Bradford and not interested in drafting Luck. The Browns are definitely interested in trading up and drafting Luck. Expect the Browns to send their first round choice in 2011 and 2012, plus a second or third round choice.

2. The Colts secure the #1 pick and the Rams have the #2 pick. The Colts will select Luck. The Rams do not want to draft Griff either and will try to trade the pick. The Browns do NOT have much interest in Griff. They feel he's not a great fit for their offense. The Browns highly valued Matt Barkley, who now is staying at USC. In this scenario, the Browns make no trades and select RB Trent Richardson. The Browns have pretty much made up their mind about Peyton Hillis. He wants too much money, is injury-prone, and is a poor fit for the offense they want to run. They want a back that has speed and can run to the outside and get yards after the catch. Hillis is gone unless he lowers his contract demands. Richardson is an excellent fit for the Browns offense.

Please, please, please, please, please don't draft Richardson with the first pick in round 1. They are going to release Hillis, to prove a point, and to open up a hole that they have to spend a top draft pick on. I hate that idea. Work out your differences for the good of the team, and to try to stop the cycle of losing.

Its a common thing for teams that change head coaches. The new coach brings in a new philosophy and it requires different players. Sometimes it can greatly benefit a current player on the team (like D'Qwell Jackson). Other times, the team has to shed talent to get players that fit the new system (Hillis). This is why its a good idea to give a new head coach 4 years. He's going to have to get "his" players to run his offense and defense.

For the Browns, its especially tough because they change head coaches so often. We went from Crennel, to 2 years of Mangini, to Shurmur. That's an awful lot of cross-currents, of different schemes and different players that fit (or don't fit) those schemes. It should take a few years to reorganize everything under one philosophy.

I'm not sure how Hillis doesn't fit. I guess that's what I'm saying. He can be very successful in an offense that likes to pass (61 receptions in 2010). If they had any kind of passing attack at all, Hillis would be a 1,200 yard rusher with another 4-500 yards receiving. I'm not sure how it's worth giving that up so you can use a top draft pick on that position.

Yes, I understand what you're saying. That's how the NFL works. I just think it's the wrong decision with this roster.

I heard two specific reasons given by the organization as to why Hillis doesn't fit.

1. He is unable to run to the outside. Shurmur's WCO needs to feature an RB that can run to the outside. They feel the offense gets too predictable when you are forced to plow straight ahead all the time, as they feel they are with Hillis.

2. Hillis has nice hands but doesn't get many yards after the catch. They want a back that can provide more in that department.

Yes, those things make sense, but it's pretty tough to judge these things when your down field pass attack is non-existent. Every team plays close to the line of scrimmage against the Browns, and nobody is afraid of the WRs. I won't be surprised if they get rid of Hillis, I just hope they don't. It'll feel like starting all over again. To make things worse, they aren't sure about Colt McCoy. So maybe he gets another year and then is let go. Then 2013 feels like starting all over.

I guess I'm just sick of "starting over". Try to call some plays to fit the talent you have and stick with a scheme. I don't feel like the Browns do a good job of utilizing the players they have, so I don't feel confident that them getting new players will fix the problems.

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What I heard lately...

The Browns have two scenarios for the 2012 NFL draft:

1. The Rams secure the #1 pick with a loss and a Colts with over the Jaguars in week 17. The Rams are interested in trading the pick but not too far down. The Browns have a lot to offer with two #1 picks this year. Talks would heat up between the two teams. The Rams are not interested in trading Bradford and not interested in drafting Luck. The Browns are definitely interested in trading up and drafting Luck. Expect the Browns to send their first round choice in 2011 and 2012, plus a second or third round choice.

2. The Colts secure the #1 pick and the Rams have the #2 pick. The Colts will select Luck. The Rams do not want to draft Griff either and will try to trade the pick. The Browns do NOT have much interest in Griff. They feel he's not a great fit for their offense. The Browns highly valued Matt Barkley, who now is staying at USC. In this scenario, the Browns make no trades and select RB Trent Richardson. The Browns have pretty much made up their mind about Peyton Hillis. He wants too much money, is injury-prone, and is a poor fit for the offense they want to run. They want a back that has speed and can run to the outside and get yards after the catch. Hillis is gone unless he lowers his contract demands. Richardson is an excellent fit for the Browns offense.

Please, please, please, please, please don't draft Richardson with the first pick in round 1. They are going to release Hillis, to prove a point, and to open up a hole that they have to spend a top draft pick on. I hate that idea. Work out your differences for the good of the team, and to try to stop the cycle of losing.

Its a common thing for teams that change head coaches. The new coach brings in a new philosophy and it requires different players. Sometimes it can greatly benefit a current player on the team (like D'Qwell Jackson). Other times, the team has to shed talent to get players that fit the new system (Hillis). This is why its a good idea to give a new head coach 4 years. He's going to have to get "his" players to run his offense and defense.

For the Browns, its especially tough because they change head coaches so often. We went from Crennel, to 2 years of Mangini, to Shurmur. That's an awful lot of cross-currents, of different schemes and different players that fit (or don't fit) those schemes. It should take a few years to reorganize everything under one philosophy.

I'm not sure how Hillis doesn't fit. I guess that's what I'm saying. He can be very successful in an offense that likes to pass (61 receptions in 2010). If they had any kind of passing attack at all, Hillis would be a 1,200 yard rusher with another 4-500 yards receiving. I'm not sure how it's worth giving that up so you can use a top draft pick on that position.

Yes, I understand what you're saying. That's how the NFL works. I just think it's the wrong decision with this roster.

I heard two specific reasons given by the organization as to why Hillis doesn't fit.

1. He is unable to run to the outside. Shurmur's WCO needs to feature an RB that can run to the outside. They feel the offense gets too predictable when you are forced to plow straight ahead all the time, as they feel they are with Hillis.

2. Hillis has nice hands but doesn't get many yards after the catch. They want a back that can provide more in that department.

Yes, those things make sense, but it's pretty tough to judge these things when your down field pass attack is non-existent. Every team plays close to the line of scrimmage against the Browns, and nobody is afraid of the WRs. I won't be surprised if they get rid of Hillis, I just hope they don't. It'll feel like starting all over again. To make things worse, they aren't sure about Colt McCoy. So maybe he gets another year and then is let go. Then 2013 feels like starting all over.

I guess I'm just sick of "starting over". Try to call some plays to fit the talent you have and stick with a scheme. I don't feel like the Browns do a good job of utilizing the players they have, so I don't feel confident that them getting new players will fix the problems.

Well with the 2012 schedule, the Browns are looking at maybe 3 wins anyway and a top pick to select a QB in 2013. There's also a stud #1 WR coming out in 2013 ranked very high - Robert Woods of USC. So if they get Luck, they might wind up pairing him with Woods. Of couse, to trade up for Luck might cost them their 2013 #1, so they won't get Woods.

Its simply going to take time to turn the Browns around.

Edited by Fensalk

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I remember the 2004 draft. I actually wanted the Browns to select Roethlisberger. But the Browns felt they were set with Kelly Holcomb and really wanted Winslow badly. So they traded with the Lions, giving up their first two picks to move up one slot to grab Winslow.

Of course, had Reothlisberger come to Cleveland, he'd still be injury-prone and probably wouldn't have amounted to much. He'd probably get distracted, completely go off the rails and flame out.

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I remember the 2004 draft. I actually wanted the Browns to select Roethlisberger. But the Browns felt they were set with Kelly Holcomb and really wanted Winslow badly. So they traded with the Lions, giving up their first two picks to move up one slot to grab Winslow. Of course, had Reothlisberger come to Cleveland, he'd still be injury-prone and probably wouldn't have amounted to much. He'd probably get distracted, completely go off the rails and flame out.

He also wouldn't have had Hines Ward, Plaxico Burress, Santonio Holmes, Mike Wallace, Antonio Brown and Heath Miller to throw too, or one of the top defenses in the NFL. Situation can make a huge difference.

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Count me in the camp that thinks opening up a hole by letting Hillis go is a bad idea.

This guy has had 2 100+ yard games against Baltimore, at Baltimore. Have we ever had a back that has done that? You want someone that can break it outside, sign a Sproles type as a situational 3rd down back.

We don't need to spend a high round pick on a RB. I'm not exactly thrilled with Hardesty.

As for Griffin, he's such a talent you adjust your offense to match his skill set. He's got a gun, he's accurate, and he's smart. He doesn't fit the West Coast offense how?

Not picking on ya Fensalk, just frustrated with what we have going on in Berea right now.

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I don't see a franchise QB like Luck or RG3 available anytime in the next few years. I'm rooting for one of the two, obviously depends on Sunday's game, and us to be just bad enough next year for Pat to get shown the door. Another 4-12 season with 2 or 3 coaching choke jobs should do it. The team is about 2 years away talent wise from competing for titles, but there's no way we do anything with this moron running gameday.

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I don't see a franchise QB like Luck or RG3 available anytime in the next few years. I'm rooting for one of the two, obviously depends on Sunday's game, and us to be just bad enough next year for Pat to get shown the door. Another 4-12 season with 2 or 3 coaching choke jobs should do it. The team is about 2 years away talent wise from competing for titles, but there's no way we do anything with this moron running gameday.

Some of the mistakes this year were almost too odd to explain. Do you think the players have confidence in him teaching them how to be smarter football players?Handoff to the backup TE for a fumbleRun the ball off-tackle with no timeouts left, inside the 5 yard line and less than 15 seconds left until halftime

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I don't see a franchise QB like Luck or RG3 available anytime in the next few years. I'm rooting for one of the two, obviously depends on Sunday's game, and us to be just bad enough next year for Pat to get shown the door. Another 4-12 season with 2 or 3 coaching choke jobs should do it. The team is about 2 years away talent wise from competing for titles, but there's no way we do anything with this moron running gameday.

Some of the mistakes this year were almost too odd to explain. Do you think the players have confidence in him teaching them how to be smarter football players?Handoff to the backup TE for a fumbleRun the ball off-tackle with no timeouts left, inside the 5 yard line and less than 15 seconds left until halftime
They absolutely do not. He's been repeating the same mistakes all season.Lack of awareness - that phantom TD vs. Cincy all the way to not seeing his QB's head get taken offLack of communicaiton - taking 3 quarters to let someone know that Hillis supposedly hurt his hammy all the way to that end of half sequence vs. the RavensPoor play calling - out thinking himself with that 4th and 1 one call vs. Tennessee (Armond Smith's only carry) all the way to the 3rd & 1 vs pass vs. BaltimoreConservative play with a lead - blown leads vs. Cincy (twice), Arizona, St Louis, and attempts vs. Seattle and JacksonvilleNo sense of urgency when playing from behind and/or in the 2 minute drill - Tennessee...Oakland...San Fran...Houston...all the way to BaltimoreI'm sure others too. I have zero confidence in this team as long as he's around. All the talent in the world isn't going to lead us to an over 500 record with this bum.

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Shurmer an Holmgren will not adjust there system too fit a player, never have. As much as it sucks cuz i love RG3s game that pretty much makes him a long shot. Which means one we either take Richardson/Blackmon with the high pick an Miller/Jeffery/Floyd with Atl. Sign a Flynn, or draft Nick Foles late an have him come in an compete with Colt. I would be thrilled with that strategy, cuz if Colt dosnt workout with the more talent around him means we would be prob in the running for Barkly next year(not a big fan of his game thou)...Or two we trade down again an aquire more picks, lets be honest thats prob the way this front office will go, If they passed on Julio gives me little confidence they will take a playmaker high unless its Richardson.

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I don't see a franchise QB like Luck or RG3 available anytime in the next few years. I'm rooting for one of the two, obviously depends on Sunday's game, and us to be just bad enough next year for Pat to get shown the door. Another 4-12 season with 2 or 3 coaching choke jobs should do it. The team is about 2 years away talent wise from competing for titles, but there's no way we do anything with this moron running gameday.

Some of the mistakes this year were almost too odd to explain. Do you think the players have confidence in him teaching them how to be smarter football players?Handoff to the backup TE for a fumbleRun the ball off-tackle with no timeouts left, inside the 5 yard line and less than 15 seconds left until halftime
They absolutely do not. He's been repeating the same mistakes all season.Lack of awareness - that phantom TD vs. Cincy all the way to not seeing his QB's head get taken offLack of communicaiton - taking 3 quarters to let someone know that Hillis supposedly hurt his hammy all the way to that end of half sequence vs. the RavensPoor play calling - out thinking himself with that 4th and 1 one call vs. Tennessee (Armond Smith's only carry) all the way to the 3rd & 1 vs pass vs. BaltimoreConservative play with a lead - blown leads vs. Cincy (twice), Arizona, St Louis, and attempts vs. Seattle and JacksonvilleNo sense of urgency when playing from behind and/or in the 2 minute drill - Tennessee...Oakland...San Fran...Houston...all the way to BaltimoreI'm sure others too. I have zero confidence in this team as long as he's around. All the talent in the world isn't going to lead us to an over 500 record with this bum.
I'm with you guys. I think any one of us could have lined up last year's NFL coordinators and threw a dart randomly and hit someone who would have had better results than Shurmur. Living in the NYC area, he reminds me of Rich Kotite and Ray Handley rolled up in one. Completely in over his head. Can we at least get an offensive coordinator please?

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I doubt Shurmur gets fired after next season. Shurmur, Holmgren, and Heckert all have the same agent.

See, now that's where the bull#### starts. If I'm Lerner, I put on my big boy pants and make sure that this is a complete non-issue. People keep their jobs and advance due to merit, not a sweet talking agent.

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I doubt Shurmur gets fired after next season. Shurmur, Holmgren, and Heckert all have the same agent.

See, now that's where the bull#### starts. If I'm Lerner, I put on my big boy pants and make sure that this is a complete non-issue. People keep their jobs and advance due to merit, not a sweet talking agent.
That was the issue when Holmgren conducted his coaching search a year ago. There were many candidates out there, but people were saying watch out for Shurmur because he has the same agent as Holmgren and Heckert. Lerner got involved with the last hire, I think he said something to the effect that head coaches have more success in their second go-around, so he hired Mangini...and gave him the authority to pick the players. That didn't work so he quickly found a President and got out of the way. Now there is concern Holmgren is turning Berea into a country club for his agent's guys.

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I doubt Shurmur gets fired after next season. Shurmur, Holmgren, and Heckert all have the same agent.

See, now that's where the bull#### starts. If I'm Lerner, I put on my big boy pants and make sure that this is a complete non-issue. People keep their jobs and advance due to merit, not a sweet talking agent.
That was the issue when Holmgren conducted his coaching search a year ago. There were many candidates out there, but people were saying watch out for Shurmur because he has the same agent as Holmgren and Heckert. Lerner got involved with the last hire, I think he said something to the effect that head coaches have more success in their second go-around, so he hired Mangini...and gave him the authority to pick the players. That didn't work so he quickly found a President and got out of the way. Now there is concern Holmgren is turning Berea into a country club for his agent's guys.
I was concerned last year when I heard about it, but was willing to give Shurmur the benefit of the doubt. I like where Holmgren and Heckert is going with the defense, but Shurmur is supposed to be an offensive specialist and Colt actually looked more comfortable in Mangini/Daboll's ####storm of an offense. Shurmur is a terrible game manager, doesn't seem like a great leader of men, and his handling of McCoygate was bad. It's embarrassing. I hate to live in the past, but the only embarrassment under Mangini's watch was the last game against Pittsburgh last year.

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1. Browns fail to get Luck as the Colts lost.

2. Browns fail to beat the Steelers and will get the #4 or #5 pick. (unsure whether the Browns or Bucs pick 4th)

3. Browns now are in the scenario to draft RB Trent Richardson.

4. I don't think the Browns will solve their QB issues this offseason.

5. Browns are now looking at one of the top two picks in 2013 and to will draft either Tyler Bray or Matt Barkley.

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Browns will have the #4 pick I believe as Tampa Bay played the harder schedule

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If only we could have lost to Indy, Jax and Seattle we would be drafting Luck

Would have rather gone 1-15 and got Luck...only hope now is that StL, Minn don't trade out of their spots and leave RGIII for us

We passed on Peterson in 2007 what makes you think they will take Richardson ?

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If only we could have lost to Indy, Jax and Seattle we would be drafting LuckWould have rather gone 1-15 and got Luck...only hope now is that StL, Minn don't trade out of their spots and leave RGIII for usWe passed on Peterson in 2007 what makes you think they will take Richardson ?

If we had only lost to Indy, the Rams would have the #1 pick and they'd trade it to us.

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If only we could have lost to Indy, Jax and Seattle we would be drafting LuckWould have rather gone 1-15 and got Luck...only hope now is that StL, Minn don't trade out of their spots and leave RGIII for usWe passed on Peterson in 2007 what makes you think they will take Richardson ?

They will take Richardson because the Browns are getting rid of Hillis and Richardson is pretty much a perfect fit for the Shurmur WCO.

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If only we could have lost to Indy, Jax and Seattle we would be drafting LuckWould have rather gone 1-15 and got Luck...only hope now is that StL, Minn don't trade out of their spots and leave RGIII for usWe passed on Peterson in 2007 what makes you think they will take Richardson ?

They will take Richardson because the Browns are getting rid of Hillis and Richardson is pretty much a perfect fit for the Shurmur WCO.
Can we let Shurmur walk instead and draft Les Miles?

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The Browns went 4-12 the final year under Romeo Crennel in 2008. The Browns went 5-11 under Mangini in 2009, 5-11 again under Mangini in 2010, and then Holmgren fired him saying we need to win more. First year under Pat Shurmur ends at 4-12.

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Draft RG3, Kendall Wright (if he declares Sanu is plan B), and a Jordan White type (later).

Indifferent on Hillis. If he's retained I'll believe he's repaired the bridges he burned. What we do at RB in the draft/free agency depends on him, so tough to speculate right now. I hope all's well behind closed doors, Hillis comes back, and we find a fast change of pace back that can get to the edge and catch/block.

We really need a DE or a CB with that other top 40 pick too.

All of this should ensure we're competitive come 2013. But just bad enough for Shurmur to get fired after next season and someone brought in that can properly utilize RG3. Shurmur won't. And if he does he'll find another way to screw up and lose anyway.

I wish we'd just close the book on Shurmur now because then I'd be on board with a Blackmon or Richardson, but that won't happen and I'm afraid one of those 2 will help us win too many games next year for him to lose his job.

I hate being a Browns fan.

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The Browns went 4-12 the final year under Romeo Crennel in 2008. The Browns went 5-11 under Mangini in 2009, 5-11 again under Mangini in 2010, and then Holmgren fired him saying we need to win more. First year under Pat Shurmur ends at 4-12.

Betcha it'll be nothin' but hugs and smiles at this week's presser when Holmgren talks to the media about the state of the team. Holmgren has shown me NOTHING. Heckert has been okay, but that's it.

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Draft RG3, Kendall Wright (if he declares Sanu is plan B), and a Jordan White type (later).Indifferent on Hillis. If he's retained I'll believe he's repaired the bridges he burned. What we do at RB in the draft/free agency depends on him, so tough to speculate right now. I hope all's well behind closed doors, Hillis comes back, and we find a fast change of pace back that can get to the edge and catch/block.We really need a DE or a CB with that other top 40 pick too. All of this should ensure we're competitive come 2013. But just bad enough for Shurmur to get fired after next season and someone brought in that can properly utilize RG3. Shurmur won't. And if he does he'll find another way to screw up and lose anyway.I wish we'd just close the book on Shurmur now because then I'd be on board with a Blackmon or Richardson, but that won't happen and I'm afraid one of those 2 will help us win too many games next year for him to lose his job.I hate being a Browns fan.

1. Browns have a brutal schedule next year. Road games at Oakland, San Diego, Dallas, the Giants. They will have one of the worst records in the league.2. The Browns from what I hear do not like Griff. The Rams will probably trade down with someone else and let that team take Griff at #2.

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What makes it tough being a Browns fan is they haven't had a franchise QB in 56 years. The only teams with a worse run are the Bears, Cardinals (ignoring a couple years of Kurt Warner), and the Eagles (since I never considered McNabb on the same level as the likes of his contemporaries like Kurt Warner, Tom Brady, or Peyton Manning).

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Saw the schedule, 2-14 written all over it.

RG3 would be an awful fit for this garbage system Shurmur runs (nothing down field, no shotgun, no hurry up, etc.), which is exactly why I want him. I'm wary it won't happen because the Browns also realize that...and someone will trade up to the #2 spot to get him.

Then we're hoping for Blackmon or Richardson. To be honest, I don't care which. They are both going to be elite players and there are adequate alternatives at both positions in the last 1st/early 2nd.

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Hillis, when healthy, not a top 5 but maybe a top 12 back. I think he's humbled and will come back with a fair offer from us. He's still young.

I HATE the idea of intentionally opening up another hole that will be filled with a top pick when we still have so many holes. We can literally use Kalil, Luck/Griffin III, Claiborne, AND Blackmon/Jeffrey ahead of Richardson. Why not sign Hillis and then go find a Sproles type 3rd down back?

I absolutely hate the direction of this team right now. I don't even know what it is.

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The Browns could go after Flynn. But he's a free agent. Not sure why he'd want to come here when he could go to the Jets, Dolphins, Redskins....or the 49ers.

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The Browns could go after Flynn. But he's a free agent. Not sure why he'd want to come here when he could go to the Jets, Dolphins, Redskins....or the 49ers.

Here's a strange thought. Seems like Heckert liked Kolb when Philly was shopping him around but the asking price was too high. Looks like Arizona may have backed into their QB of the future in John Skelton, and also most likely has some buyer's remorse with Kolb's contract. They may give us Kolb for pennies on the dollar. Could he be an option? And is this year an abnormality or the norm with him? I loved his potential and thought he would excel under Andy Reid.

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the problem is that Kolb has proven to be mediocre, that's why Skelton backed in. You don't think they will go after Flynn??

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the problem is that Kolb has proven to be mediocre, that's why Skelton backed in. You don't think they will go after Flynn??

This was a nice game from Flynn, but there are reasons why he was a 7th round pick.

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the problem is that Kolb has proven to be mediocre, that's why Skelton backed in. You don't think they will go after Flynn??

This was a nice game from Flynn, but there are reasons why he was a 7th round pick.
excellent point. Still , do you think that Kolb is better??

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If I had to guess, given the way everything has shaken out with Barkley staying at USC and the Colts getting the top pick, I think they probably draft a WR either late in round 1 or in round 2, and stick with McCoy another year. There just aren't any good options.

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the problem is that Kolb has proven to be mediocre, that's why Skelton backed in. You don't think they will go after Flynn??

This was a nice game from Flynn, but there are reasons why he was a 7th round pick.
excellent point. Still , do you think that Kolb is better??
Even. I don't think Flynn is as good as he's shown while I think Kolb isn't as bad as he's shown.

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Hillis, when healthy, not a top 5 but maybe a top 12 back. I think he's humbled and will come back with a fair offer from us. He's still young. I HATE the idea of intentionally opening up another hole that will be filled with a top pick when we still have so many holes. We can literally use Kalil, Luck/Griffin III, Claiborne, AND Blackmon/Jeffrey ahead of Richardson. Why not sign Hillis and then go find a Sproles type 3rd down back?I absolutely hate the direction of this team right now. I don't even know what it is.

Depends what's gone on behind closed doors. May be one of those cases where he burned too many bridges.I agree though if the damage has been repaired we should push for him and let Richardson set records on another team.

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The Browns could go after Flynn. But he's a free agent. Not sure why he'd want to come here when he could go to the Jets, Dolphins, Redskins....or the 49ers.

Here's a strange thought. Seems like Heckert liked Kolb when Philly was shopping him around but the asking price was too high. Looks like Arizona may have backed into their QB of the future in John Skelton, and also most likely has some buyer's remorse with Kolb's contract. They may give us Kolb for pennies on the dollar. Could he be an option? And is this year an abnormality or the norm with him? I loved his potential and thought he would excel under Andy Reid.
Kolb is not a good QB. Thrilled doesn't begin to describe my thoughts when we didn't trade for him.I think there could be serious legs to the Packers franchising Flynn angle and if that's the case I hope someone else trades for him. As a free agent I'd be open to it. But again I keep coming back to wanting to suck next year. Acquiring Flynn may not allow for that.God, I hate being a Browns fan.

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the problem is that Kolb has proven to be mediocre, that's why Skelton backed in. You don't think they will go after Flynn??

This was a nice game from Flynn, but there are reasons why he was a 7th round pick.
Tom Brady was a 6th round pick. Kurt Warner was undrated.High draft picks do have a better chance though. they can also set a franchise back for years too. Couch, McNown, Harrington, Carr, Russell, etc. etc.

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RG3 would be an awful fit for this garbage system Shurmur runs (nothing down field, no shotgun, no hurry up, etc.), which is exactly why I want him.

I don't get this at all. He runs basically the same system Andy Reid runs. How does Griffin not fit that? The reason they don't go deep much isn't about the system. It's about having next to no speed in the WR corps, a QB with a below average arm and a line that can't hold up for long.

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