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Cleveland Browns (16 Viewers)
- Thread starter wadegarrett
- Start date
MAC_32
Footballguy
To be third string on a historically terrible team prone to massive turnover?
pantherclub
Footballguy
pantherclub
Footballguy
King of the Jungle
Footballguy
For millions of dollars...why not!
1st string: McCarron/Bradford/Bridgewater/Keenum
2nd string: Tyrod (seems like a waste of a pick to trade for him after they land another FA but this team is desperate to find a QB and TT will be gone after this coming year)
3rd string: QB at 4
MAC_32
Footballguy
Tyrod is better than the 1st string sans Bridgewater who won't consider coming here.
MAC_32
Footballguy
King of the Jungle
Footballguy
IMO I would rather have Keenum, Bridgewater, or a healthy Bradford (probably not possible) over Tyrod and it is not real close. I would take TT over McCarron however. Either way I think CLE is at the point of grabbing whatever and how many they can to see what sticks. And I cannot blame them for that approach at this point. We shall see what happens with th remainder of FA but I would be surprised if they didn’t bring in another FA to compete along with a rookie.
daveR
Footballguy
My $.02
TT is a good addition. He's a middle-of-the-pack veteran who doesn't turn the ball over. He'll be steady if unspectacular. If the guy they draft doesn't develop, he will be at the helm until they find one who does. The price is a little steeper than I imagined, but there could have been unstated contingencies given that I believe BUF will trade up to the top-5 in this draft. In short, we need this sort of guy to run the O for the short term, and given that we also have pick 64, trading #65 is fine with me.
Landry for a 4 & 7 is a coup. Thank you! I've long said that the one attribute I prize most highly in a WR is hands. All he does is get open & catch the ball. Should match up well with TT. I wouldn't mind adding one more WR with top-end speed to the mix. Why come here? "That's where the money is!"
Kizer for Randall. I guess it plays out the same for both clubs. Each saw a talented, but troubled, player & decided to try a trade. Personally, I'm pleased that they are addressing the secondary. Hope they add a couple more DBs, at least one on the "shutdown" level. I really thought I saw some good stuff in Kizer. Shows what I know!
Danny Shelton should fit very nicely in NE. Not here. We have DTs who do. Good luck DS! The price the Pats paid for him is a coup for them.
TT is a good addition. He's a middle-of-the-pack veteran who doesn't turn the ball over. He'll be steady if unspectacular. If the guy they draft doesn't develop, he will be at the helm until they find one who does. The price is a little steeper than I imagined, but there could have been unstated contingencies given that I believe BUF will trade up to the top-5 in this draft. In short, we need this sort of guy to run the O for the short term, and given that we also have pick 64, trading #65 is fine with me.
Landry for a 4 & 7 is a coup. Thank you! I've long said that the one attribute I prize most highly in a WR is hands. All he does is get open & catch the ball. Should match up well with TT. I wouldn't mind adding one more WR with top-end speed to the mix. Why come here? "That's where the money is!"
Kizer for Randall. I guess it plays out the same for both clubs. Each saw a talented, but troubled, player & decided to try a trade. Personally, I'm pleased that they are addressing the secondary. Hope they add a couple more DBs, at least one on the "shutdown" level. I really thought I saw some good stuff in Kizer. Shows what I know!
Danny Shelton should fit very nicely in NE. Not here. We have DTs who do. Good luck DS! The price the Pats paid for him is a coup for them.
Soulfly3
Footballguy
If we pull a Rams like turnaroun, it's gonna be hilarious to see all the neysayers avoid this thread.
Do I expect that? not at all. But this team is a 500 team, minimum, this season. I wont shy from that.
We finish under 500, I'll be in this thread eating L's from anyone who wants to dish one.
Do I expect that? not at all. But this team is a 500 team, minimum, this season. I wont shy from that.
We finish under 500, I'll be in this thread eating L's from anyone who wants to dish one.
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massraider
Footballguy
You are talking about why the deal made sense for the Pats, to explain why it's a bad deal for the Browns. Which is the wrong way to go about it. Or, at least, not of interest to Browns fans. Or it shouldn't be.
Just because in trade talks, a pick this year is worth a round higher the next year, doesn't mean the players taken with those picks are equal. You want to compare the success rate of 3rd rounders vs 5th rounders? I don't think that would go well for you. The Pats basically trading spots for a year of Shelton is fine for a theoretical argument in gauging trade value, but the reality is the Browns got another 3rd rounder next year, and a much better chance to get a good player. For a 2 down run stuffer. The kind of player that is always available in the bargain bin of free agency.
dhockster
Footballguy
I can understand being an optimistic person, but even if the Browns bring in a lot of new, good players, they still have to mesh and be coached by a coach who has lost 31 out of 32 games. 8 wins would be amazing. I am not saying that because I am anti-Browns, but because I don't see anything yet to support them winning 8 games. Way too many question marks right now.Soulfly3 said:
Soulfly3
Footballguy
Not an insult, but did you watch the Browns at all last year?
I get why fans of other teams think we're a million mile away from being decent, but if you actually watched the games like us poor morons did... The Browns were actually decent. The ONLY thing that really stopped them (Yes, Hue is an idiot) was a QB that was even slightly below average.
We hung in tight for a LOT of games, and had some GOOD teams on the ropes, until we just couldnt keep up any more defensively, and gassed out.
Kizer was not even bad. He was attrocious.
Being 100% honest when I saw if we had Tyrod last season, we close out with 4-5 wins.
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-OZ-
Footballguy
I don't know about all that but the one browns game I watched last year, I was disgusted with my Titans. Probably need to give more credit to the browns defense than I did at the time.
King of the Jungle
Footballguy
They have talent on the roster. It is just changing the culture and getting someone behind center that is more consistent. Those two things are easier said than done unfortunately. I am rooting for you guys. As a Lion's fan I am very familiar with the feeling of disappointment.Soulfly3 said:
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
SaintsInDome2006 said:
- Third round pick DT Larry Ogunjobi played great and needed more reps. His pass rush and push are a better fit to start in Greg Williams attack defensive scheme.
- Fifth round pick DT Caleb Brantly started out slow but came on strong. He was getting 'some' PT but earned more reps that weren't available.
- FA DT Trevon Coley was basically starting. When he was in you could not tell the difference from Shelton stopping the run but he added pass rush.
- FA DT Jamie Meider has stuck and basically fills the role of Shelton but has 'slightly' more range.
The Browns will be signing lots of free agents over the next couple of years so they cannot count on getting any compensatory picks and a late round pick this year would have a tough job making the team with so many high picks so the future third round pick means we get something for him and getting it next year gives us more value since we will add so many rookies this year.
dhockster
Footballguy
I did watch the Texans/Browns game. My guess is that was one of the worst games the Browns played and Hogan was at QB. I think with decent QB play the Browns do get to 4 wins. I think if everything goes right, then maybe they get to 6 wins.
I think it is natural in a long season for good teams to let up some (unintentionally) against perceived weak teams. I think that is why the Browns had some close games against good teams. I think that if the Browns start winning some games, then better teams will play better against them because they feel they have to.
Obviously, the -28 turnover differential was devastating to the Browns. I don't know if any team has ever finished first in giveaways and last in takeaways before. If they can get close to even in differential, that will help them tremendously. Obviously, a semi competent QB will reduce the number of giveaways, but Gregg William's defenses in his 19 seasons only rank in the 36th percentile in takeaways, so I don't assume the defense is going to start causing turnovers all over the place. His Super Bowl season for the Saints was really an outlier for him in causing turnovers.
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ghostguy123
Footballguy
MAC_32
Footballguy
I think I started raking leaves by the 3rd quarter of that game saying to myself I should have started an hour earlier.
MAC_32
Footballguy
BassNBrew
Footballguy
massraider said:
So it was a good trade because picks after round 3 have little value AND the guy being traded is being replaced by picks after the 3rd round.MAC_32 said:
MAC_32
Footballguy
Where did you get the second part from?So it was a good trade because picks after round 3 have little value AND the guy being traded is being replaced by picks after the 3rd round.
bucksoh
Footballguy
Lol the last rb taken 1st overall was Ki Jana Carter most people know how that turned out. When Earl Campbell played it was a totally different game. Rb is easily the easiest position to replace in the nfl. Its why they should never be taken high. Most GMs who aren't clueless know this. That being said with the 1st overall pick the Browns select Barkley.-OZ- said:
I think coaching(Hue and Williams) was a much bigger problem than QB was. Tom Brady could have been the QB and they still finish under 8-8. I still have no idea why if Kizer was the problem, they didn't just go with Kessler, especially since he'd have some, not much but some, success with Hue the year before.
That said, I agree this is a talented roster. Probably #2 in the AFC North just on talent.
BassNBrew
Footballguy
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MAC_32
Footballguy
Well, the first three guys he mentioned are all better than Shelton and aren't done developing. They need a vet in the rotation though. Just one with a different skill set to Shelton.
-OZ-
Footballguy
Bobcat10
Footballguy
I’m not keeping track like you are, but I think there is cheerleading going on in every thread. What I do think is consistent in this thread from some of the posters is pretty good analysis. Maybe there is too much optimistic justification going on here and there, but we want to win so bad that it gets cloudy sometimes.BassNBrew said:
pantherclub
Footballguy
Speaking as a panther fan I can say yeah man we have all been there. Most of us have been through dark dark times.
Peak
Footballguy
They tried that route. He ridiculously regressed. He looked like that backup QB from Unnecessary Roughness. If Kessler isn't let go before the season starts, I'll be shocked.
Bobcat10
Footballguy
Pete Smith has been hating on the Landry trade and finally pieced together why.
https://twitter.com/_petesmith_/status/972888657970515968?s=21
My biggest pause about the trade is the extension issue, which he brings up. Not sure I agree with all the empty stats analysis, we’ve kind of been dying for a player with Landry’s skill set. But again I’m hung up on what happens next to issue a thumbs up or thumbs down on the trade. It’s not as clear cut as the Shelton and Kizer trades, that’s for sure.
https://twitter.com/_petesmith_/status/972888657970515968?s=21
My biggest pause about the trade is the extension issue, which he brings up. Not sure I agree with all the empty stats analysis, we’ve kind of been dying for a player with Landry’s skill set. But again I’m hung up on what happens next to issue a thumbs up or thumbs down on the trade. It’s not as clear cut as the Shelton and Kizer trades, that’s for sure.
MAC_32
Footballguy
Thomas The Skank Engine
Footballguy
Also keep in mind Brantley was considered 2nd round talent but had the legal issue hanging over him.
amnesiac
beer is good
good analysis, thanks Bracie.
this trade makes more sense now.
i would obviously like it better if they had gotten more in return.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Frankly, I am still perfectly good with the deal even if he is only here one year (assuming we are going with a QB at the top of the draft). If we bring in a rookie QB we better be giving him a chance to succeed, and having Landry around goes a long way towards that.. The 3rd and 4th we would be giving up for one year of Taylor and Landry could be quite invaluable for what this team needs and what a top drafted rookie QB needs.
pantherclub
Footballguy
ghostguy123
Footballguy
So what time can teams "legally" start tampering tomorrow?
BassNBrew
Footballguy
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
If a team drafts a player or picks them up as a FA they are an unknown and would be referred to by the round they were drafted and what they 'might' be capable of doing.
If they have played we know what they have done and what their limitations are and how much they cost and can make an educated guess on what they have left in the tank.
Cleveland Browns defensive snaps from last year show that the two rookies got less snaps than the two 'starters' and I put starters in minor quotes because their was a heavy rotation used on the D-Line because Shelton was taken off the field on passing downs because he provides zero pass rush making him a two-down DL, basically he is a pure 0 tech NT.
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/cle/2017-snap-counts.htm
2017 Cleveland Browns Snap Counts
- Trevon Coley - played 656 snaps or 61.42% 24 tackles 17 assists 2 sacks 2 pass defensed 1 forced fumble 1 fumble recovery
- Danny Shelton - played 467 snaps or 43.73% 20 tackles 13 assists 1 pass defensed
- Larry Ogunjobi - played 301 snaps or 28.18% 17 tackles 15 assists 1 sack
- Caleb Brantley - played 217 snaps or 20.32% 12 6 assists 1 fumble recovery
- Jamie Meider - played 179 snaps or 16.76% 8 tackles 5 assists
Shelton had zero sacks and only has 1.5 in four years with the Browns showing statistically what everyone can see, he provides no push or pass rush. He also had only 1.6% of his snaps on special teams where FA DT Jamie Medier had 16.44% and Ogunjobi had 11.81% of the special team snaps providing extra benefit to the team.
It sounds like you have no clue about Ogunjobi. PFF had him as the fourth highest graded defender on the Browns and gave him the 2nd highest grade of any interior defender from last year's draft.
Brian Spoon @BrianSpoon FollowFollow @BrianSpoon
Top-5 @PFF graded #Browns on defense in 2017:
- Myles Garrett - 88.4
- Briean Boddy-Calhoun - 84.5
- Jason McCourty - 83.9
- Larry Ogunjobi - 82.0
- Derrick Kindred - 82.0
Eric Brown @FauxIDs Jan 5
Replying to @BrianSpoon @PFF
Myles = #1 rookie edge defender Njoku = #1 rookie tight end Ogunjobi = #2 rookie interior defender
-----------------------------
Coley is already starting and playing well. Ogunjobi had the highest grade of any interior D-Lineman on the team and the 2nd highest of any rookie interior DL from last year's draft. He will be starting next to Coley but Brantely really improved and looked great at the end of last year. Meider is the definition of a JAG but he works his tail off and adds value since he is willing to play special teams and has a low cap hit as do all of the rest of interior D-Linemen since they are on rookie contracts. Only Shelton was up for a huge salary bump (reported to be $11 million per year compared to less than $1 million for the other guys).
I like Danny Shelton, he is an anchor against the run, a pure 0 tech NT and that holds value but the Browns have guys who can fill that role at a much lower cost.
Village Idiot
Pokerguy
It's a decent trade because the Browns got something for someone that was going to be phased out because he didn't fit, and was more expensive.So it was a good trade because picks after round 3 have little value AND the guy being traded is being replaced by picks after the 3rd round.
He only played 44%of the defensive snaps as was last year.
Soulfly3
Footballguy
The plan is for Ndamukong Suh to be released as early as today as the Dolphins continue their attempt at a culture change – a plan that has purged arguably Miami’s three most talented players within last year. A lot riding on 2018.
- Jeff Darlington
...... Could this be why they parted w Shelton?
- Jeff Darlington
...... Could this be why they parted w Shelton?
Bobcat10
Footballguy
Why?
And I wasn't really grading the potential of the trades. We have FA and the draft to fill in the missing puzzle pieces to get a clearer overall picture. I'm simply saying the Shelton trade makes most sense out of all 4 at this juncture in time. For example, Tyrod is questionable because what other QB could we have gotten and at what price? I think 3.01 was fairly steep and an overpay, but we don't have all the information to truly compare it. On the flip, Shelton was not a fit, is in his contract year, and comp picks are in question going forward. I do agree Landry should have a far superior on the field impact when compared to Shelton whether the Shelton trade was ever completed or not.
MAC_32
Footballguy
Hope not, if we're looking at wave one I'd prefer someone in their 20's - Poe and Jones immediately come to mind.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
I don't think we have a great need at DT.
Saw in the free agency thread that Suh 'reportedly' is in Seattle right now.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
We overpaid in draft capital for Tyrod. I still think the deal makes sense especially if we plan to draft a QB high. Now we got a guy on a 1 year deal rather than pay a competent QB for 3 or more years.
Bottom line, we absolutely HAD to get a REAL QB on the roster.
Bottom line, we absolutely HAD to get a REAL QB on the roster.
