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wadegarrett

**** CLEVELAND BROWNS THREAD ****

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I thought once Joseph settled in he wasn’t half bad. New special teams coach this year too. Drafting one is Ok, as long as we’re not married to him because of it.

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3 hours ago, Galileo said:

Great pick for us...maybe the best pick of the draft for us thus far (that is not intended as a knock on other selections in any way).  This guy is 3-4th round value.  I feel we reached on Takitaki.  Wilson is great value and I think will be a significant contributor.  He needs to develop a little more instinct for the game...anticipate better rather than just react.

Why?

And it comes across as negative sandwiched between your Wilson hype. 

You know I’m a big proponent of get your guy when you can and don’t risk it. Sounds like Wolf and Highsmith LOVED him. 

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5 hours ago, Bobcat10 said:

Why?

And it comes across as negative sandwiched between your Wilson hype. 

You know I’m a big proponent of get your guy when you can and don’t risk it. Sounds like Wolf and Highsmith LOVED him. 

Well, I hope they are right.   I am certainly not privy to all the info the Browns staff had collected as they prepared for the draft.  They obviously know things I don't.

To be honest, Takitaki was not really on my radar, and I have never seen him play.  So in all fairness it is tough for me to judge him.  I have seen Wilson play.  When I look around at inside linebacker pre-draft rankings, I see Mack Wilson ranked higher on every one of them.  I generally see Wilson listed from #2-4 on rank lists.  No doubt there is some Alabama bias as they are front and center on the national stage, but not on one list have I seen Takitaki even as a top ten listing.  The highest I have seen Takitaki ranked on anyone's list is 14th, and I have seen him outside the top 50 on others.  At the very least, there's a lot more variation in peoples' opinion of him.  In the end, the only list that matters is the one Dorsey and his staff put together, so I will have to trust them, but it seems possible that there were better LBs available OR if they didn't want those others, there seems to be a good chance TakiTaki would have still been available at 119, thus my assessment that it seems like a reach.

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8 hours ago, Bobcat10 said:

I thought once Joseph settled in he wasn’t half bad. New special teams coach this year too. Drafting one is Ok, as long as we’re not married to him because of it.

Austin Seibert K, OKLA

Height: 5-9, Weight: 213

The Browns got better than expected production from Greg Joseph but clearly aren't satisfied with the position.  Seibert can contribute as a kicker and punter.

2018 - 17/19 on field goals

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7 hours ago, Galileo said:

Well, I hope they are right.   I am certainly not privy to all the info the Browns staff had collected as they prepared for the draft.  They obviously know things I don't.

To be honest, Takitaki was not really on my radar, and I have never seen him play.  So in all fairness it is tough for me to judge him.  I have seen Wilson play.  When I look around at inside linebacker pre-draft rankings, I see Mack Wilson ranked higher on every one of them.  I generally see Wilson listed from #2-4 on rank lists.  No doubt there is some Alabama bias as they are front and center on the national stage, but not on one list have I seen Takitaki even as a top ten listing.  The highest I have seen Takitaki ranked on anyone's list is 14th, and I have seen him outside the top 50 on others.  At the very least, there's a lot more variation in peoples' opinion of him.  In the end, the only list that matters is the one Dorsey and his staff put together, so I will have to trust them, but it seems possible that there were better LBs available OR if they didn't want those others, there seems to be a good chance TakiTaki would have still been available at 119, thus my assessment that it seems like a reach.

As a general rule, if an Alabama player falls there's usually good reason. I'm not expecting anything more than adequate depth in 2020 and 2021. 

I'd have rather they go after Takitaki with the 119 and gone in a different direction at 80 though. 

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5 hours ago, The Man With No Name said:

Austin Seibert K, OKLA

Height: 5-9, Weight: 213

The Browns got better than expected production from Greg Joseph but clearly aren't satisfied with the position.  Seibert can contribute as a kicker and punter.

2018 - 17/19 on field goals

Long - 42 yds  :loco:  1/3 on 50+ yd attempts and 9/15 from 40-49 for his college career.    He does have a ridiculously large number of extra points with solid numbers there.  He's nothing special as a punter.  This is not a player, nor a position, that screams 5th round pick in my eyes.  I wonder if this pick happens if Baker were not here.

 

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39 minutes ago, MAC_32 said:

As a general rule, if an Alabama player falls there's usually good reason. I'm not expecting anything more than adequate depth in 2020 and 2021. 

I'd have rather they go after Takitaki with the 119 and gone in a different direction at 80 though. 

Agreed.  As I said, I certainly do not have all the info.  I did see a leaked Wonderlic test score of 15 for Wilson.  That isn't too impressive.

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From PFF pre-draft big board rankings. Greedy top-ten overall.  

They have Takitaki ranked over Mack Wilson.

------------------------------------------------------------

PFF 250 pre-draft ranked players for 2019 NFL draft

Quote

 

9. CB GREEDY WILLIAMS, LSU

His sophomore campaign wasn’t quite as dominant as his freshman season, but he still only allowed 27 of his 74 targets to be completed.

109. LB SIONE TAKITAKI, BYU

A former edge defender turned off-ball linebacker in 2018, Takitaki earned an 88.6 run-defense grade with BYU, ranking tied for 13th with Kansas’ Joe Dineen Jr. among qualifiers. Takitaki also earned a 75.9 coverage grade across 365 coverage snaps in 2018.

127. LB MACK WILSON, ALABAMA

Wilson checks a lot of boxes in that he’s as a former five-star recruit coming out of Alabama, but he’s yet to prove he can turn his limitless potential into results on the field. In his last two years with the Crimson Tide, Wilson earned sub-72.0 overall grades.

142. S SHELDRICK REDWINE, MIAMI (FLA.)

Redwine earned career highs in overall grade (81.6) and coverage grade (85.9). He also recorded 35 defensive stops in 2017 and 2018 combined.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Bracie Smathers said:

From PFF pre-draft big board rankings. Greedy top-ten overall.  

They have Takitaki ranked over Mack Wilson.

------------------------------------------------------------

PFF 250 pre-draft ranked players for 2019 NFL draft

 

There you go.   After a little googling...I actually found Rotoworld with Takitaki listed at 90 and Wilson listed at 104.  But the others I found...

CBS - Wilson 54; Takitaki 254

draftnetwork.com - Wilson 54; Takitaki 191

nflbigboard.com - Wilson 47; Takitaki 207

draftek.com - Wilson 41; Takitaki 237

NFL.com - Wilson 61; Takitaki 277 (based on grade)

Sporting News - Wilson 45; Takitaki not in top 100

NBCsports.com - Wilson 48; Takitaki not in top 100

nfldraftgeek.com - Wilson 46; Takitaki not in top 100

Walterfootball.com - Wilson 41; Takitaki not in top 100

 

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5 minutes ago, Galileo said:

There you go.   After a little googling...I actually found Rotoworld with Takitaki listed at 90 and Wilson listed at 104.  But the others I found...

CBS - Wilson 54; Takitaki 254

draftnetwork.com - Wilson 54; Takitaki 191

nflbigboard.com - Wilson 47; Takitaki 207

draftek.com - Wilson 41; Takitaki 237

NFL.com - Wilson 61; Takitaki 277 (based on grade)

Sporting News - Wilson 45; Takitaki not in top 100

NBCsports.com - Wilson 48; Takitaki not in top 100

nfldraftgeek.com - Wilson 46; Takitaki not in top 100

Walterfootball.com - Wilson 41; Takitaki not in top 100

 

Who the hell is Mel Kiper anyways....We don't have to take anyone Mel Kiper says we have to take.

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1 minute ago, Dez said:

Who the hell is Mel Kiper anyways....We don't have to take anyone Mel Kiper says we have to take.

Well, I am am not an ESPN Insider, so I couldn't see Kiper's rankings...

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33 minutes ago, ghostguy123 said:

If the guy is any sort of player at all, then a 3rd rounder is a small price to pay.  

The few highlight clips I saw made him stand out as a guy who diagnoses quickly & reacts athletically.  Looked fast & physical.  

ETA:  this clip

Edited by daveR

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Good breakdown of Takitaki from Jeff Loyd as guest on a BYU sports talk show from this morning.

Jeff is part of the Locked on Browns podcast team which is the best out there covering the Browns.  See link below.

Jeff Lloyd from Locked on Browns podcast joins on BYUSN to discuss Sione Takitaki's place on the team, the Browns' linebacker situation, and next year's expectations.

-----------------------

The Locked on Browns podcast, these guys cover everything in detail.  Fantastic pod if you haven't heard of it.  Just check out their draft stuff.

They go over Greedy and will be covering every pick and the rest of the AFCN, and the NFL.  Great pod devoted to the Browns.

Locked On Browns podcast page

---------------------------------------------------

Some Mack Wilson luv.

NFL Draft 2019: Late-Round Picks Who Could Become Pro Bowlers

Quote

 

Mack Wilson, LB, Cleveland Browns

The Cleveland Browns drafted Mack Wilson in the fifth round, but he's a solid Day 2 talent based on his tape. The 6'1", 240-pound linebacker shouldn't have limitations, as the coaching staff can use him on all three downs.

Wilson isn't a quick-strike linebacker like Atlanta's Deion Jones but shows functional awareness in coverage. He logged six interceptions and seven pass breakups between his sophomore and junior seasons at Alabama.

Joe Schobert's deal expires at the end of the season. Despite having a Pro Bowl campaign in 2017, the three-year veteran linebacker may become expendable. The Browns can turn to the rookie who has a cheaper contract and a comparable skill set. 

Assuming Wilson's traits translate, he'll likely see action in a limited role in 2019, though his coverage skills are beneficial with an increasing number of spread offenses around the league. The Montgomery, Alabama, native has the potential to put together a breakout season within his first two years.

 

Rumors before the draft did say we were shopping Schobert and we did draft two LBers who hopefully could develop if negotiations get sticky.

Edited by Bracie Smathers

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10 hours ago, Dez said:

The odds would change if this goes down.   

This is a speculative article but it is interesting speculation.             Browns analysis: John Dorsey could make play for Buccaneers’ Gerald McCoy  

Quote

 

Browns GM John Dorsey is believed to have a post-draft interest in former All-Pro DT Gerald McCoy, who led Tampa Bay with 21 QB hits in 2018, and Bucs are in need of a RB...

...Dorsey’s interest in McCoy is believed to be ongoing,...

McCoy, who turned 31 ... No. 3 overall pick of the 2010 draft. McCoy made first team All-Pro in 2012, 2013 and 2014, and at one point went to six straight Pro Bowls, the last of them after the 2017 season.

In 2018, McCoy had six sacks and a team-high 21 quarterback hits, playing 70 percent of Tampa Bay’s defensive downs (732 overall).

...Tampa Bay is in a salary-cap squeeze into which an aging defensive tackle with one year left on his contract, at $13 million, does not fit.

The Browns have wiggle room and a player who might fit the tricky economics of a trade involving two veterans, in addition to addressing a Bucs need. Running back Duke Johnson signed a Browns contract extension last year that, according to Spotrac, has them on the hook for salary cap hits of $4.05 million this year, $4.85 million in 2020 and $5.9 million in 2021.

The Bucs’ three leading rushers in 2018 were Peyton Barber with 871 yards (3.7 average), quarterback Jamies Winston with 281 yards and quarterback Ryan Fitzpatrick with 152 yards.

...Arians told reporters McCoy would be Tampa Bay’s starting three-technique tackle for new defensive coordinator Todd Bowles if he remained on the team in 2019. Arians made it clear it was a big “if.”

“The financial is a big part of it,” Arians said late last month, via Tampa Bay Times beat man Rick Stroud. “I’ve got to evaluate him. I mean, guys when they age, it’s different.

“Usually they’re at the age when they get paid the most and the production doesn’t match.

“It’s a what-have-you-done-for-me-lately business. It’s hard. It’s cold. That’s it.”

The Bucs are reshaping their defense and spent their top five draft picks on defenders,

...If the Bucs can’t trade McCoy, he would become available if they cut him, at which point he could choose his team rather than being bound to one in a trade.

Dorsey hasn’t been shy about dealing previous regimes’ picks for other teams’ players. He parlayed DeShone Kizer into safety Damarious Randall, used Jabrill Peppers as a key chip in the Beckham deal, and most recently sent Ogbah to the Chiefs for safety Eric Murray.

He has been willing to part with players who might have been of use to the 2019 Browns (prime example: Peppers) in exchange for players who might make a bigger difference.

 

We are at a different spot than we were a few months ago.  While other teams are peeling off older vets Dorsey 'might' be looking to add the missing piece that could push us over the top.

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Do we want Gerald Mccoy for 1 year at 13 million?  I dont wanna trade Duke for him unless we sign a good backup RB, which I dont see as being available. 

I dont really think it would be a great move to take on that salary, let alone give away Duke also.  

He is a decent player, but nah, I dont know 

Edited by ghostguy123

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1 hour ago, Soulfly3 said:

on a 1yr deal? who cares,w e have the space.

make every effort you can to ensure 1) playoffs 2) a deep run

DOes he help us do this more than Duke would?  

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2 hours ago, Soulfly3 said:

on a 1yr deal? who cares,w e have the space.

We actually don't. Acquiring him will materially impact next year's cap.

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3 hours ago, ghostguy123 said:

I dont wanna trade Duke for him unless we sign a good backup RB, which I dont see as being available. 

Ajayi with his bone-on-bone doesn't do it for you? 

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9 hours ago, MAC_32 said:

We actually don't. Acquiring him will materially impact next year's cap.

im not a cap expert, so explain this. why would acquiring him on a 1yr deal this summer impact the cap for 2yrs from now

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4 minutes ago, Soulfly3 said:

im not a cap expert, so explain this. why would acquiring him on a 1yr deal this summer impact the cap for 2yrs from now

It decreases our roll over into 2020. We are already spending above the cap in 2019. Which is fine because we have been rolling over unused cap for years. We are now in treading lightly territory though. Bringing in another (meaningful) contract will essentially mean not retaining an expiring contract.

So one year of McCoy would increase the probability Schobert or Randall are playing somewhere else in 2020.

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2 hours ago, MAC_32 said:

So one year of McCoy would increase the probability Schobert or Randall are playing somewhere else in 2020.

So if the talk of Trading Schobert and/or Duke is involved this offseason, what does that do to your books?  By drafting multiple LBs, I can see where Kirksey and/or Schobert may be gone this year.

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29 minutes ago, Peak said:

So if the talk of Trading Schobert and/or Duke is involved this offseason, what does that do to your books?  By drafting multiple LBs, I can see where Kirksey and/or Schobert may be gone this year.

Their 2019 cap hits pale in comparison to McCoy. And I dont think Duke is here in 2020. I hope he doesnt leave prior, but (may) understand why he would. 

I think re-signing Schobert and Randall are high priorities, so if bringing in McCoy impacts that then i don't want him. If it doesnt impact those decisions then I'm open minded, but concerned. 

Kirksey is toast, (EDIT) but preferably not until after 2019.

Edited by MAC_32
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3 hours ago, Soulfly3 said:

im not a cap expert, so explain this. why would acquiring him on a 1yr deal this summer impact the cap for 2yrs from now

It's weird right?  This whole idea of actually needing to worry about the salary cap? 

Get used to it Soul.  It is going to be part of the equation for the foreseeable future.

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22 hours ago, Peak said:

So if the talk of Trading Schobert and/or Duke is involved this offseason, what does that do to your books?  By drafting multiple LBs, I can see where Kirksey and/or Schobert may be gone this year.

The CJ Mosely and Kwon Alexander contracts were insane. 

C.J. Mosley contract breakdown: Jets don't have a real out until 2021  - five-year, $85 million contract

Report: LB Kwon Alexander, 49ers Agree to Four-Year, $54M Deal -  Alexander appeared in only six games

Joe isn't Mosely or Kwon but for the Ravens to walk away from CJ ...

We don't know what Joe will demand but those contracts set the bar much higher than what Dorsey probably would have wanted right before he attempts to extend Schobert.  Kirksey got extended so we'll have to see if he steps up his play to match his contract because he's got to now that he's got competition.  

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Rumor floating around the Twitterverse that Eric Berry is going to sign a deal with the Browns soon -  expected to be in before the next mini-camp.

I'd have to assume it would be a team friendly deal, maybe a one year deal.  Just another vet Dorsey is familiar with to help get the youngsters up to speed quickly?

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35 minutes ago, Peak said:

Rumor floating around the Twitterverse that Eric Berry is going to sign a deal with the Browns soon -  expected to be in before the next mini-camp.

I'd have to assume it would be a team friendly deal, maybe a one year deal.  Just another vet Dorsey is familiar with to help get the youngsters up to speed quickly?

That would be great since S was a dire need.  Greedy selection was value and we will have a role for him as a boundary CB even if he isn't listed as a starter he has premium skills/value.  Safety has historically been a position that can be found with mid to late draft selections but if Berry gets a clean bill of health then he would be surgical veteran addition to what could be an emerging secondary.

Speaking of which if Greedy looked familiar. 

Greedy Williams has a doppelganger >>>>  Greedy doppelganger  

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(Rotoworld) Browns signed RB D'Ernest Johnson, formerly of the AAF's Orlando Apollos. Analysis: Johnson was second in the AAF in rushing with 372 yards at the time of its collapse. He also led the league in yards-per-carry with a 5.8 mark, totaling a 64-372-2 rushing line. Johnson flashed in the passing game as well, compiling a 22-220-1 line there. He links back up with QB Garrett Gilbert, who also signed with the Browns after starting for the Apollos.

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5 hours ago, The Man With No Name said:

(Rotoworld) Browns signed RB D'Ernest Johnson, formerly of the AAF's Orlando Apollos. Analysis: Johnson was second in the AAF in rushing with 372 yards at the time of its collapse. He also led the league in yards-per-carry with a 5.8 mark, totaling a 64-372-2 rushing line. Johnson flashed in the passing game as well, compiling a 22-220-1 line there. He links back up with QB Garrett Gilbert, who also signed with the Browns after starting for the Apollos.

Browns’ practice squad gonna be lit!

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44 minutes ago, ghostguy123 said:

So Mccoy was released.  Not sure if that makes it more or less likely we get him.

I am guessing he gets a 2 or 3 year deal for around 9-10 million a year.  Maybe half guaranteed.

 

More likely, but it depends on his contract demands because the cap situation remains. Dollars now means less later. The Browns should probably pass if what you cited is his market value. 

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13 minutes ago, MAC_32 said:

More likely, but it depends on his contract demands because the cap situation remains. Dollars now means less later. The Browns should probably pass if what you cited is his market value. 

The contract is why maybe it's less likely.

Now, if the guarantees are 13 million, then the money part is pretty much the same with options later.

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the Browns are past the point where they have to overpay for free agents. 

the question is if they have reached the point that players are willing to take less to come to Cleveland. 

my guess is; not yet. 

so if McCoy is looking for a big payday, the Browns will pass.  

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45 minutes ago, ghostguy123 said:

The contract is why maybe it's less likely.

Now, if the guarantees are 13 million, then the money part is pretty much the same with options later.

If a team wanted him for $13 mil then they would have swapped 7's or something with them. They aren't going to pay more now. 

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Last year Ogunjobi suffered a torn bicep against the Texans but gutted it out for the entire season.  Trevon Coley was awful.

We signed Sheldon Richardson and after we signed Shel Dorsey was known to be targeting Jeffery Simmons in the draft even though he wouldn't be able to play this year.  We know that we have been interested in McCoy after the draft when draft picks would be part of the package to attain him.  Now we don't have to pay draft picks and we 'might/should' be able to get him for less money than his current contract.

McCoy had been great making six straight Pro Bowls up to last year where his production dropped by 19 tackles from the previous year.  He only had 28 total combined tackles or less than 2 per game which is low.

The contract has to be re-negotiated.  He has made over $100 million in his career so it stands to reason he would want to join a playoff/potential Super Bowl team.  The Pats have interest but they have less than $4 million.  He wants to join a 'potential' championship team but I am sure he doesn't want to be insulted.  Other teams mentioned, the Colts, the Seahawks, the Bills, the Niners, and the Eagles.  Cross off the Niners since they have so much invested on the D-Line.  Bills aren't a contender.  Hawks don't have enough cash.  The Colts went cheap in FA so I think they would want a bargain.  Not sure of the Eagles.

The 'best' option I see for McCoy is Cleveland.  More than likely he would be part of a rotation to keep the inside guys fresh and he still has a spry pass rush as he has not gone below 6 sacks in the past 6 years.  

Last year Pittsburgh went cheap by not signing LeVeon Bell and that had a cascading effect on Antonio Brown which created all sorts of drama.  When it comes down to paying a few extra million dollars their is a fine line between being cap savvy and just being stupid.  

Dorsey has made it clear he feels we still have a need at DT and he would not pay draft picks or the current salary of Gerald McCoy but now it is a new ball game and I think it makes a lot of sense for both sides to find common ground and make a deal that benefits both sides.

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1 hour ago, Bracie Smathers said:

When it comes down to paying a few extra million dollars their is a fine line between being cap savvy and just being stupid.  

This is where I'm not aligned in the thinking with the vast majority that want McCoy.  It isn't about being cap savvy; it's about ensuring you have the necessary cap space to retain your core, which should be priority #1. And maintaining the ability to maximize your ability to build a strong team in future years as you are now - sustained success.  Any move that negatively impacts that should not go through.  I'm not saying acquiring McCoy does that, but as of right now it's in the range of potential outcomes.

Does McCoy make the 2019 Browns better?  Almost certainly.  But he also may indirectly make the 2020 and beyond Browns worse.  What are his priorities and actual market? Then how does acquiring him potentially impact future season's?  We'll know the answer to question #1 shortly after whatever contract he signs, but we won't know the answer to question #2 for some time.  Optics will likely dictate that question meaningless because most won't remember, but I think sound fiscal policy/planning is more important.

There's a price that makes sense for a great rotational veteran DT, but beyond the indirect impacts it has on the rest of the roster in future years he first must be okay with such a role and second his cost should be substantially lower than the DT you signed 2 months ago.  This could be a great get, but there are a lot of variables that need filled in for this to make sense.

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27 minutes ago, MAC_32 said:

This is where I'm not aligned in the thinking with the vast majority that want McCoy.  It isn't about being cap savvy; it's about ensuring you have the necessary cap space to retain your core, which should be priority #1. And maintaining the ability to maximize your ability to build a strong team in future years as you are now - sustained success.  Any move that negatively impacts that should not go through.  I'm not saying acquiring McCoy does that, but as of right now it's in the range of potential outcomes.

Does McCoy make the 2019 Browns better?  Almost certainly.  But he also may indirectly make the 2020 and beyond Browns worse.  What are his priorities and actual market? Then how does acquiring him potentially impact future season's?  We'll know the answer to question #1 shortly after whatever contract he signs, but we won't know the answer to question #2 for some time.  Optics will likely dictate that question meaningless because most won't remember, but I think sound fiscal policy/planning is more important.

There's a price that makes sense for a great rotational veteran DT, but beyond the indirect impacts it has on the rest of the roster in future years he first must be okay with such a role and second his cost should be substantially lower than the DT you signed 2 months ago.  This could be a great get, but there are a lot of variables that need filled in for this to make sense.

I don't think it is the price so-much as the structure of the contract where their would be no dead cap hit basically making it a performance based contract.  

We have a need according to how Dorsey approached FA with Richardson, the draft with his pursuit of Simmons, and the interest he's shown towards McCoy.  

We lack depth at DT and considering the torn bicep of Ogun... I haven't seen any updates and saw no surgery, just an MRI which indicates a slight tear but those sort of injuries can linger.  If we have both vets we could pick-and-choose between McCoy and Richardson as to whether we'd cut or extend and/or who provides better long-term value.   

We need another starting caliber DT in the mix according to Dorsey by his actions.  Their are a few to choose from but McCoy 'seems' the best fit.   

Envision January when we are in the playoffs and Trevon Coley gets blown off the LOS and we are getting gashed by some team and then see their QB complete a pass as Garrett gets their too late because he didn't get inside penetration from the DT.

Then picture Baker screaming on the sidelines as McCoy sacks the QB as our defense controls the LOS because we have an effective rotation that keeps everyone fresh without a falloff in play.  

We are going to the playoffs this year and Dorsey has made it clear by actions he wants a good DT to add to the rotation and McCoy looks like the 'best fit'.  We can afford him and he make a difference in January.  

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I am excited to see what McCoy will do within this newly restructured DL that Dorsey has built.

Garrett - Richardson - McCoy - Vernon

Who do you double team?  You go heavy on one side, the other will get you.  Good luck trying to go Man-2-Man.  That is a ridiculously good setup.  I don't see any other suitor that could offer McCoy that kind of opportunity where he can stay fresh all season and not have to worry about double-teams every time he's on the field.

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