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**** CLEVELAND BROWNS THREAD ****

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2 hours ago, Ministry of Pain said:

So what happened today? What was the turning point in the game?

Seattle is a good team that didn't turn the ball over 4 times. 

Edited by MAC_32
Actually, 5*
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2 minutes ago, MAC_32 said:

Might want to find something else to talk about for the next 2 weeks because that's pretty much all we are going to hear. 

Ok, how about the line actually sucks even though you say it doesn’t?

there was one play that Mayfield nearly got crushed from the left and Hubbard got a penalty for holding on the right side.  he nearly got destroyed by both sides on one play, which should never happen. 
 

i appreciate your analysis but saying the oline is “below average” is being kind.  

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4 minutes ago, MAC_32 said:

Seattle is a good team that didn't turn the ball over 4 times. 

turnovers were brutal. 
 

can you give some insight to my earlier question as to why so many of Mayfields passes get tipped into interceptions?  is it luck or something else?

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6 minutes ago, amnesiac said:

Ok, how about the line actually sucks even though you say it doesn’t?

there was one play that Mayfield nearly got crushed from the left and Hubbard got a penalty for holding on the right side.  he nearly got destroyed by both sides on one play, which should never happen. 
 

i appreciate your analysis but saying the oline is “below average” is being kind.  

Never once when watching the game today did I ever think to myself they're a problem. If you vacuum it down to a play or two you can skewer every player on the field. 

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6 minutes ago, amnesiac said:

turnovers were brutal. 
 

can you give some insight to my earlier question as to why so many of Mayfields passes get tipped into interceptions?  is it luck or something else?

Wouldnt be able to provide a cohesive answer, but I suspect someone will do the work on it over the next couple weeks. Knee jerk, not good throws that shouldn't be picked off though. 

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Just now, MAC_32 said:

Never once when watching the game today did I ever think to myself they're a problem. If you vacuum it down to a play or two you can skewer every player on the field. 

fair enough.  I don’t take notes the whole game, but that play was beyond awful. should never happen. 
 

i believe Mayfield and Chubb are hiding how bad they are.  they need a left tackle, a right guard and a right tackle. 
 

 

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2 minutes ago, MAC_32 said:

Wouldnt be able to provide a cohesive answer, but I suspect someone will do the work on it over the next couple weeks. Knee jerk, not good throws that shouldn't be picked off though. 

that’s also my impression but it seems odd there are so many. 

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4 hours ago, amnesiac said:

fair enough.  I don’t take notes the whole game, but that play was beyond awful. should never happen. 
 

i believe Mayfield and Chubb are hiding how bad they are.  they need a left tackle, a right guard and a right tackle. 
 

 

I don't think need is the right word, but I expect OL to be a priority March and April. We'll see what other positions are as well and which ones take precedence. 

Edited by MAC_32

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weird

 

imo, they will be 2-5, they could still end up 8-8. 
 

just hope they don’t give up. 
 

stinks they lost today, but they were in it almost to the end. that is progress, even if it doesn’t feel like it. 

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6 hours ago, Bracie Smathers said:

What are people feeling about the head coach?  

Worried, but not for the same reasons as everyone else. I think it is all attention to detail and focus related. We aren't. And it's everyone. Not persistently, but frequently enough to have us on the roller coaster that we are on. 

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I could see us playing New England tough, but the things that worked well today will backfire and vice versa. Also, the offensive woes are overshadowing the defensive woes. A weekly Myles Garrett sack isn't enough. We haven't forced turnovers in the last 2 games.

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9 hours ago, Ministry of Pain said:

So what happened today? What was the turning point in the game?

Browns up 20-6 early(each team missed a pat).  Then 20-9.  Had a punt blocked, but D held...20-12.  Key drive...Browns driving under 2 minutes to go in 2nd quarter.  2nd and 8 from the 10.  Baker throws a terrible pass to Landry in the endzone that gets tipped and picked.  1:37 left and Seattle drives 83 yards for a td with 22 seconds left, 2 pointer failed.....20-18.  At worst it should of been 23-12, possibly 27-12 at the half.....ugh

Edited by arctic_panzer_wolf
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14 hours ago, amnesiac said:


i believe Mayfield and Chubb are hiding how bad they are.  they need a left tackle, a right guard and a right tackle. 
 

 

Perhaps but Mayfield isn't doing a very good job at hiding how awful he is.  5 TDs, 11 picks.  I don't care how bad your line is, those are terrible numbers,

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11 minutes ago, Godsbrother said:

Perhaps but Mayfield isn't doing a very good job at hiding how awful he is.  5 TDs, 11 picks.  I don't care how bad your line is, those are terrible numbers,

They are terrible numbers but numbers don't tell the story about how good or awful a QB is.  Rudolph's and Duck's numbers look 'good' but they haven't been asked to do anything and it isn't because Fitchner is hiding how good they are.

Baker's timing is off, he's throwing low and behind and has at least two (or three?) really bad tipped INTs and one where two WRs collided where he threw to a spot and got picked.  He had at least one hail Mary INT to end a half.  The INTs are bad but the aggressiveness of Baker coupled with the aggressiveness of Kitchens/Monken and with the big play ability of WR OBJ had the offense opening this year running deeper routes which lead to more sacks/pressure/hits connected directly to issues with Baker.

Kitchens is going to run an aggressive offense and Baker is aggressive.  People dislike Baker so they want to see him fail and make up things that aren't true.  Phantom handshakes?  People try to script a villain or hero but the truth is that Baker is talented and he's got the best weapons in the division but their are more than one simple reason why his numbers look terrible and it is not because he's awful. 

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Just now, Bracie Smathers said:

They are terrible numbers but numbers don't tell the story about how good or awful a QB is.  Rudolph's and Duck's numbers look 'good' but they haven't been asked to do anything and it isn't because Fitchner is hiding how good they are.

Baker's timing is off, he's throwing low and behind and has at least two (or three?) really bad tipped INTs and one where two WRs collided where he threw to a spot and got picked.  He had at least one hail Mary INT to end a half.  The INTs are bad but the aggressiveness of Baker coupled with the aggressiveness of Kitchens/Monken and with the big play ability of WR OBJ had the offense opening this year running deeper routes which lead to more sacks/pressure/hits connected directly to issues with Baker.

Kitchens is going to run an aggressive offense and Baker is aggressive.  People dislike Baker so they want to see him fail and make up things that aren't true.  Phantom handshakes?  People try to script a villain or hero but the truth is that Baker is talented and he's got the best weapons in the division but their are more than one simple reason why his numbers look terrible and it is not because he's awful. 

I don't dislike Baker and I don't necessarily think he'll never be a good QB but he is playing awful and those numbers reflect it.

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16 minutes ago, Godsbrother said:

I don't dislike Baker and I don't necessarily think he'll never be a good QB but he is playing awful and those numbers reflect it.

'PLAYING' awful and 'BEING' awful are two different things and I've admitted he's playing awful but gave reasons.

Rudolph and Duck have posted 'good' stats but that doesn't tell the whole story either.

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2 minutes ago, Bracie Smathers said:

'PLAYING' awful and 'BEING' awful are two different things and I've admitted he's playing awful but gave reasons.

Rudolph and Duck have posted 'good' stats but that doesn't tell the whole story either.

True but I never compared Rudolph or Hodges to Mayfield.   They are different QBs on different teams, being asked to do different things.     That said Mayfield is playing lousy and the Browns would do well to change their approach because it isn't working very well.   

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1 minute ago, Godsbrother said:

True but I never compared Rudolph or Hodges to Mayfield.   They are different QBs on different teams, being asked to do different things.     That said Mayfield is playing lousy and the Browns would do well to change their approach because it isn't working very well.   

I agree 100%, he's posting awful stats and they have to figure it out but a rookie HC is also calling plays, he's got a lot on his plate.  I don't like that. 

Baker took five sacks in his last eight games last year but took that many in the opener.  Pressure is an issue the coaches 'apparently' weren't too concerned with as the offense drifted away from 12 personnel which was their most effective offensive set last year but by adding the big-play WR it takes from key pass-pro personnel. 

The QBs are not only asked to do different things the offenses are constructed different.  OBJ forces teams to bracket him which is a very-good thing.  Chubb can go house on any carry so that forces outside contain.  Baker has strengths but the goals are different, the philosophy is different.  Every team is a puzzle but a rookie HC/play caller trying to figure it out.  I don't think it should be as difficult and I don't think the numbers should be as awful.   

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Besides the OL, Freddie is in over his head. Yesterday was a prime example. He needs to give up play calling. With a 20-6 lead and then throwing the ball instead of leaning on Chubb was stupid. Play clock and challenge flag management is abysmal. He panics and isn't wired to be a HC.

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7 hours ago, arctic_panzer_wolf said:

Browns up 20-6 early(each team missed a pat).  Then 20-9.  Had a punt blocked, but D held...20-12.  Key drive...Browns driving under 2 minutes to go in 2nd quarter.  2nd and 8 from the 10.  Baker throws a terrible pass to Landry in the endzone that gets tipped and picked.  1:37 left and Seattle drives 83 yards for a td with 22 seconds left, 2 pointer failed.....20-18.  At worst it should of been 23-12, possibly 27-12 at the half.....ugh

Yep.  Shot themselves in the foot several times, aided by a couple bad calls.  Baker needs to be more precise.

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On ‎10‎/‎10‎/‎2019 at 7:21 AM, amnesiac said:

OBJ Film Review
 

“For the first time, Mayfield admitted Wednesday that Beckham missing training camp “definitely hurt” their timing. That isn’t an excuse.

It kind of is.

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5 minutes ago, geneyus said:

Besides the OL, Freddie is in over his head. Yesterday was a prime example. He needs to give up play calling. With a 20-6 lead and then throwing the ball instead of leaning on Chubb was stupid. Play clock and challenge flag management is abysmal. He panics and isn't wired to be a HC.

I am skeptical about the rationale that was applied at the end of the first half.

That whole sequence in the 3rd quarter was just bizarre, but that was a Landry TD so I don't fault him throwing the challenge flag there. Optics it obviously would have been better to throw it sooner, but again - that whole sequence was bizarre.

They were leaning on Chubb plenty and 20 points wasn't going to win that game, so I don't follow that rationale being thrown out there.

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37 minutes ago, Godsbrother said:

True but I never compared Rudolph or Hodges to Mayfield.   They are different QBs on different teams, being asked to do different things.     That said Mayfield is playing lousy and the Browns would do well to change their approach because it isn't working very well.   

Awful and lousy are hyperbole. Inconsistent though? Yep, that's fair. Ball placement and pocket management, specifically. He's done well in the pocket 2 of the last 3 games, so there's at least progress there.

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19 minutes ago, geneyus said:

With a 20-6 lead

See, this cannot be overlooked.  Freddie (and Monken) prepared the offense that came out firing and Freddie called the plays to build that huge lead.

The missed extra point hit the first foul note.  Blocked punt?  Right when we had the lead?  A HC who can devote time to ALL phases of the team is a good thing IMHO.  I don't think these 'perfectly ill-timed' mistakes are just happenstance.  You feel the void.  A big play/lead and then at the worst possible moment, tipped pass in the RZ for an INT, missed XP, blocked punt, fumbled PR, strip-sack.  That isn't normal or sheer coincidence or bad luck.  Their is a reason.

Their is also a reason why we built the lead in this game and in Baltimore but Freddie HAS to get ahead of the curve and not only anticipate 'worst-time-possible-mistakes' he has to be leaning into those moments expecting the best possible outcome and can't throw a challenge flag in the fourth when mathematically overturning what was called on a close play is a loss, not only of the challenge but it disrupts game flow, loss of further challenge, and critical loss of a time out in a close game.  

The frazzled look of a HC who doesn't realize basics of the challenge system is bad but the real world consequences are worse.

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There was alot going on during that double time out fiasco.  Here's what I remember seeing.

Freddie was yelling (safe bet to the refs on the field), and yelling more, before he took the initial time out (early, I'll get to that later).  Initially, two thoughts came to mind.  Maybe he felt the play clock was not handled properly since there was some confusion if Landry was in or not, maybe he wanted it reset.  Or, I thought he was trying to possibly get the booth to review it since it was a potential scoring play....but I'm honestly not sure if that's possible.  Can the booth automatically review a goaline play that is NOT called a TD on the field?  I know if the play was ruled a TD, the booth would have looked at it as they always do.  I don't know if it works both ways but I don't think that's how it works.  I'm thinking Freddie might not either.

If he used that real time wisely before calling the initial time out instead of yelling, his people (they better exist) who review plays like that could/would have just told him to throw the red flag.  Here we avoid the wasted time out.  Further, he called the initial time out with around 12 seconds left on the play clock per my memory.  So again, he wasted the time he's afforded to decide on what to do with that little red flag as he had 10 more seconds before having to call the time out.  His brain said I know I can't get the play in and the players lined up in that amount of time....when instead he should have always just been concerned with the challenge and then call the time out if our people said not to challenge.  It was 4th down at the goaline, nobody would have batted an eye if he did that.  

I'm not sure what happened in the press conference after the game and how much this was talked about.  I'm only going by what I remember.  Just seems like Freddie is out of his element in some high pressure situations.  He's gotta learn just like this young dumb team he coaches.

Edit to add: yes, Landry was in and we should have only lost 1 time out anyways.  But, that's not the point.

 

Edited by Bobcat10

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On 10/10/2019 at 7:21 AM, amnesiac said:

I think you guys should read/watch this one.  It's not behind the OBR pay wall.  

Burns breakdowns

 

Almost as important to me as the body of the article was this line:

Quote

Mayfield is certainly not trusting his offensive line, and there's some merit to why that is happening. He has taken some hits from a group who has not protected all too well in both camp and regular season games. The Browns defensive line got after Mayfield in camp and his outside the pocket nature started to show at those points. I am sure the seed of distrust was planted at that point. He knew his offensive line would be worse without Kevin Zeitler, but the extent of which nobody knew. The right guard shuffle through the off-season didn't help and now Mayfield is left feeling panicked and distrusting what he is seeing.

 

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anyone catch the Kitchens presser?

sounded like he was throwing a bunch of guys under the bus without naming names. 
 

paraphrasing:  Talent has gotten you to 2-4, now it’s time to commit to doing your job.  
 

 

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2 minutes ago, amnesiac said:

anyone catch the Kitchens presser?

sounded like he was throwing a bunch of guys under the bus without naming names. 
 

paraphrasing:  Talent has gotten you to 2-4, now it’s time to commit to doing your job.  
 

 

No.  And while I do understand some of the Freddie bashing to a point, I really think execution is a bigger problem than the plays being called at this point.  Casual observation.

Was he grilled about Higgins?  That's the stuff I'm fired up about.  

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30 minutes ago, Bobcat10 said:

There was alot going on during that double time out fiasco.  Here's what I remember seeing.

Freddie was yelling (safe bet to the refs on the field), and yelling more, before he took the initial time out (early, I'll get to that later).  Initially, two thoughts came to mind.  Maybe he felt the play clock was not handled properly since there was some confusion if Landry was in or not, maybe he wanted it reset.  Or, I thought he was trying to possibly get the booth to review it since it was a potential scoring play....but I'm honestly not sure if that's possible.  Can the booth automatically review a goaline play that is NOT called a TD on the field?  I know if the play was ruled a TD, the booth would have looked at it as they always do.  I don't know if it works both ways but I don't think that's how it works.  I'm thinking Freddie might not either.

If he used that real time wisely before calling the initial time out instead of yelling, his people (they better exist) who review plays like that could/would have just told him to throw the red flag.  Here we avoid the wasted time out.  Further, he called the initial time out with around 12 seconds left on the play clock per my memory.  So again, he wasted the time he's afforded to decide on what to do with that little red flag as he had 10 more seconds before having to call the time out.  His brain said I know I can't get the play in and the players lined up in that amount of time....when instead he should have always just been concerned with the challenge and then call the time out if our people said not to challenge.  It was 4th down at the goaline, nobody would have batted an eye if he did that.  

This is what I think. Key word, think:

One official ruled fumble and another ruled touchdown. He obviously wanted clarification and given all of the issues with that officiating crew if someone told me it took them a while to clarify I wouldn't be any surprised. They conferenced for a while before getting over to him. Then he looks up from the delay and sees a play clock at :1X and screams wtf reset that thing. You couldn't tell me what the outcome of that last play was. He frustratingly called timeout then spent the timeout lobbing for it back cause it was their mistake. He is awarded the timeout back and gets the play call in. Then while they're lining whoever is responsible for relaying challenges finally is able to get his attention and tells him Landry scored. Since it wasn't obvious from one angle and needed spliced together from two different camera angles I'd expect this to not be instant. Once you see the two angles I think it is obvious and the refs quite simply messed up the challenge, but again - throw the flag isn't going to be relayed to him immediately. So he throws the challenge flag.

But while all of that is (okay, may be) explainable it also confirms he's put too much on his plate gameday. 

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2 minutes ago, Bobcat10 said:

And while I do understand some of the Freddie bashing to a point, I really think execution is a bigger problem than the plays being called at this point.  Casual observation.

That's about where I am. Some of it is self inflicted by Freddie, but I don't think the undisciplined nature of this team is necessarily (totally) on him. Yes, that's the coach's responsibility. He certainly bares some blame, but I'm skeptical whether what we have seen would be much better under different leadership.

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5 minutes ago, MAC_32 said:

That's about where I am. Some of it is self inflicted by Freddie, but I don't think the undisciplined nature of this team is necessarily (totally) on him. Yes, that's the coach's responsibility. He certainly bares some blame, but I'm skeptical whether what we have seen would be much better under different leadership.

Right, and I for one was totally in the camp of bashing Hue for his undisciplined teams.  I don't want to confuse discipline and execution though.  While they overlap, they are not one in the same.

 

9 minutes ago, MAC_32 said:

This is what I think. Key word, think:

One official ruled fumble and another ruled touchdown. He obviously wanted clarification and given all of the issues with that officiating crew if someone told me it took them a while to clarify I wouldn't be any surprised. They conferenced for a while before getting over to him. Then he looks up from the delay and sees a play clock at :1X and screams wtf reset that thing. You couldn't tell me what the outcome of that last play was. He frustratingly called timeout then spent the timeout lobbing for it back cause it was their mistake. He is awarded the timeout back and gets the play call in. Then while they're lining whoever is responsible for relaying challenges finally is able to get his attention and tells him Landry scored. Since it wasn't obvious from one angle and needed spliced together from two different camera angles I'd expect this to not be instant. Once you see the two angles I think it is obvious and the refs quite simply messed up the challenge, but again - throw the flag isn't going to be relayed to him immediately. So he throws the challenge flag.

But while all of that is (okay, may be) explainable it also confirms he's put too much on his plate gameday. 

"I think" that's a good synopsis.  So they did give us the TO back?  I'm still confused with the entire situation I guess.

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10 minutes ago, Bobcat10 said:

"I think" that's a good synopsis.  So they did give us the TO back?  I'm still confused with the entire situation I guess.

Yes. Because we then lost the challenge and had two timeouts left after the Baker int at the end of the game. 

Edited by MAC_32
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1 minute ago, MAC_32 said:

Yes. Because we then lost the challenge and had two timeouts left after the Baker int at the end of the game. 

That's what I thought yesterday...then I went on Twitter.  Bad choice.

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42 minutes ago, Bobcat10 said:

 

Was he grilled about Higgins?  That's the stuff I'm fired up about.  

yes. he simply said he just came off injury and thought he needed another week.  
 

they then asked if he was in his doghouse and he denied it.  then they asked him if he had a doghouse.  it was a strange exchange.  

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27 minutes ago, amnesiac said:

yes. he simply said he just came off injury and thought he needed another week.  
 

they then asked if he was in his doghouse and he denied it.  then they asked him if he had a doghouse.  it was a strange exchange.  

Playing Callaway week 5 with those results (and backlash) probably fogged this decision.  

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6 hours ago, Godsbrother said:

True but I never compared Rudolph or Hodges to Mayfield.   They are different QBs on different teams, being asked to do different things.     That said Mayfield is playing lousy and the Browns would do well to change their approach because it isn't working very well.   

Maybe Baker should be asked to do less if he isn't capable of doing what has been asked him so far this season.    The Steelers hid their QB last night by playing great D, running the ball, and throwing short passes.   Good teams find a way to win.     

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Anybody got a link to the Landry goal line "fumble"?  I can only find one & it's not very good.

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On 9/18/2019 at 6:26 PM, Tecumseh said:

Hubbard is in a walking boot. Can we pull the trigger on TWilliams now? Pretty please??

Steve Doerschuk of the Canton Repository shares the news with a tweet that is oozing more with rumor than it is dripping with hard news: “Hearing Trent Williams should be on Browns roster quite soon.”

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hope he’s in shape. not crazy about giving up a first for a 31 year old.  

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A 1st round pick for an oft injured 31 year old tackle on this team would be incredibly stupid. 

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He is due 11 million this year and 12 next year and is holding out?  Didnt realize that.

Maybe a 3rd.  He is gonna want a lot obviously

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3 minutes ago, ghostguy123 said:

He is due 11 million this year and 12 next year and is holding out?  Didnt realize that.

Maybe a 3rd.  He is gonna want a lot obviously

Still dumb. We have payday's coming up and need cheap, cost controlled draft picks as that's the best way to continue to sustain the quality of the team. 

We need to finish at worst 7-3 to make the playoffs and are expecting a guy that's been sitting on his couch to come in and instantly gel with the rest of the group. 

And this team's record if we had Trent Williams starting September 1? 2-4. 

Don't do it, Dorse. Don't ####### do it. 

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You cant give up a 1st for a 31 year old OL no matter how good he has been. They had Joe Thomas for 11 years. That's what you want out of your LT.

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5 hours ago, MAC_32 said:

A 1st round pick for an oft injured 31 year old tackle on this team would be incredibly stupid. 

Sure sounds like a deal is getting done. Lotta chatter on the innerwebs tonight.

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2 minutes ago, beer 30 said:

Sure sounds like a deal is getting done. Lotta chatter on the innerwebs tonight.

i wouldn’t be shocked. 
 

but a first rounder is a terrible idea. 

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