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wadegarrett

**** CLEVELAND BROWNS THREAD ****

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19 minutes ago, ghostguy123 said:

To be fair though, these stupid fumbles and the baker INT aren't kitchens fault

the INT play should’ve never been called.  That one is on both of them.  

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7 minutes ago, amnesiac said:

the INT play should’ve never been called.  That one is on both of them.  

I dont know.  It's hard to blame the coach when a defenders blows up the play while the QB also makes a bad read.  Not like it was a bad situation for that type of play

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31 minutes ago, ghostguy123 said:

I dont know.  It's hard to blame the coach when a defenders blows up the play while the QB also makes a bad read.  Not like it was a bad situation for that type of play

Bad read is a bit generous, he threw the ball directly too him. Think just for a second, keep the ball and live for another day. I'm arguing for top 5 all time in the annals of Browns ineptitude, change my mind.  https://twitter.com/bustedcoverage/status/1188564730958536705?s=20

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So kitchens doesnt have his wrs prepared to not make obvious pick penalties, and doubles down on it with a terrible challenge.  This is great.

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Kitchens seems to throw the challenge flag based purely on emotion.  

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New England is playing again at another level.  NFL is not ready for that Patriot Smoke this year. 

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5 minutes ago, SHIZNITTTT said:

New England is playing again at another level.  NFL is not ready for that Patriot Smoke this year. 

They have beaten bad teams.  That's all I can say at this point

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4 minutes ago, PennStater77 said:

Baker is going to turn out to be just another guy

When the offensive line is this bad I can agree.   When the offensive play calling is this bad I can agree. 

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@DaveSpa57

Wait wait wait...they actual told Hodge to jump offsides so they didnt have to run a timeout that way they could go for it??? WTF?!

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1 hour ago, amnesiac said:

the INT play should’ve never been called.  That one is on both of them.  

One would be hard pressed to find a dumber drawn up play. Once again dumb coaches trying to be tricky. That was just the dumbest of dumb plays. It had absolutely no chance.

The fact that the play exists in their playbook tells me they don't have a clue what they are doing.

Edited by lod001

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1 hour ago, ghostguy123 said:

I dont know.  It's hard to blame the coach when a defenders blows up the play while the QB also makes a bad read.  Not like it was a bad situation for that type of play

I think the int was Kitchens. I think that was a coached up tendency, when Landry goes in motion and a lineman pulls get in between Baker and Landry. Guy wasnt there by some fluke. 

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10 minutes ago, lod001 said:

One would be hard pressed to find a dumber drawn up play. Once again dumb coaches trying to be tricky. That was just the dumbest of dumb plays. It had absolutely no chance.

The fact that the play exists in their playbook tells me they don't have a clue what they are doing.

It's usually a very successful play. Bellichik is better than everyone else. 

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1 hour ago, beer 30 said:

This kinda #### doesn't help https://twitter.com/EverythingCLE_/status/1188583627090776064?s=20

And Odell, catch a ####### ball please. Seen enough one handed grabs, use both and pull a few in for your QB, how about huh? :wall:

Odell has been pretty bad all year. At least one or two of those per game. 

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26 minutes ago, SHIZNITTTT said:

When the offensive line is this bad I can agree.   When the offensive play calling is this bad I can agree. 

The bad OL narrative. Kill it. Kill it with fire. 

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10 minutes ago, MAC_32 said:

The bad OL narrative. Kill it. Kill it with fire. 

Yeah, I don't think the oline is that bad.  I've seen much, much worse this season.   Baker has been bad and Kitchens has no clue.  I knew they were doomed when they went pass, pass, pass, punt on the very first series in a torrential downpour.  The first quarter was an episode of football follies.

Edited by arctic_panzer_wolf
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2 hours ago, amnesiac said:

I’m really starting to wonder about Kitchens.  

Can't defend him, but replacing him isn't fixing this either. 

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24 minutes ago, MAC_32 said:

Can't defend him, but replacing him isn't fixing this either. 

i've been the one preaching patience. 
 

blowing this thing up again is not the answer. 
 

but what the heck is he doing?

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6 minutes ago, amnesiac said:

but what the heck is he doing?

Same thing anyone else in history does when they are asked to do way more than they have ever done before.  

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1 hour ago, MAC_32 said:

I think the int was Kitchens. I think that was a coached up tendency, when Landry goes in motion and a lineman pulls get in between Baker and Landry. Guy wasnt there by some fluke. 

He was there because Bitonio got his ### blown up on the play.

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46 minutes ago, amnesiac said:

i've been the one preaching patience. 
 

blowing this thing up again is not the answer. 
 

but what the heck is he doing?

On game day? He has too much on his plate and won't adjust. 

The rest of it? It's bigger than him. The players need to hold themselves accountable. They're not. Starting to hear it, but this late is unacceptable. 

We outplayed them today. And lost by 2 touchdowns. 

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Just now, Galileo said:

He was there because Bitonio got his ### blown up on the play.

That was the worst quarter, by a lot, I can remember from Bitonio. 

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4 minutes ago, MAC_32 said:

On game day? He has too much on his plate and won't adjust. 

The rest of it? It's bigger than him. The players need to hold themselves accountable. They're not. Starting to hear it, but this late is unacceptable. 

We outplayed them today. And lost by 2 touchdowns. 

Oh, come on.  The Patriots had more first downs, more total yards, won the time of possession and won the turnover battle 3-0.  I will give the Browns a little props for not completely imploding after that train wreck of a 1st quarter, but to say they outplayed the Patriots today just doesn't pass the sniff test. 

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7 minutes ago, Ghost Rider said:

Oh, come on.  The Patriots had more first downs, more total yards, won the time of possession and won the turnover battle 3-0.  I will give the Browns a little props for not completely imploding after that train wreck of a 1st quarter, but to say they outplayed the Patriots today just doesn't pass the sniff test. 

I thought I posted it before but apparently I didnt. We lost because of turnovers and penalties. We also outplayed them. Both of these things can be true. 

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2 hours ago, lod001 said:

One would be hard pressed to find a dumber drawn up play. Once again dumb coaches trying to be tricky. That was just the dumbest of dumb plays. It had absolutely no chance.

The fact that the play exists in their playbook tells me they don't have a clue what they are doing.

Both Green Bay and Kansas City have scored tonight with the same basic play.  Many teams are running variants of it.  Like anything else, it comes down to execution.

Edited by Galileo
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Kitchens is in over his head, alarmingly even, but then there's just the usual influx of weird, dumb Browns-y stuff in that game that makes no sense.

Chubb and Bitonio, two of our more dependable players, having games like that is just a killer and not on coaches.

Edited by franchise punter
asdf

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12 hours ago, SHIZNITTTT said:

wow "Snatching the Defeat from the jaws of Victory!" 

That was the 3rd Browns game I ever attended, it was the season opener.  After the game everyone was just walking around saying wtf? The 2nd game I went to was the previous season vs Jax....also known as bottlegate.  I don't go to many games anymore 🤣

Edited by arctic_panzer_wolf
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3 hours ago, franchise punter said:

Kitchens is in over his head, alarmingly even, but then there's just the usual influx of weird, dumb Browns-y stuff in that game that makes no sense.

Chubb and Bitonio, two of our more dependable players, having games like that is just a killer and not on coaches.

I don't think I've ever seen a linemen flip in the air and kick the ball out of his RBs hands....only the Browns.  This season is the most disappointed I've been since they choked away the playoff game to Pitt in 02'.  Every season between then and now has been crap other than 07'.....and they still managed to choke away a game to Cincy to help them miss the playoffs at 10-6 😑

Edited by arctic_panzer_wolf

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13 hours ago, SHIZNITTTT said:

@DaveSpa57

Wait wait wait...they actual told Hodge to jump offsides so they didnt have to run a timeout that way they could go for it??? WTF?!

 

14 hours ago, amnesiac said:

Kitchens seems to throw the challenge flag based purely on emotion.  

Kichens:  Challenge that PI call.  

Coach the last 20 challenges of PI calls have failed.

Challenge it anyway because I want to make a point.

Coach if you challenge you will not only lose the challenge but later in the game you won't have a challenge and you also lose a time out.

Challenge that call.

Cleveland has challenged the call on the field and lost again.  Will Freddie Kitchens learn or will he keep losing challenges?

---------------------------------

Daryl Ruiter

So false start in 4th & 11, with punt unit, Freddie pulls them puts offense out for 4th & 16. Baker sacked. Nathan Zegura just reported, #Browns deliberately false started so the offense could return to the field because Kitchens didn't want to burn final timeout. Clown show.

4:13 PM - 27 Oct 2019

-----------------------------------

Kitchens on 4th and 11.

Put the punt team out their.

Wait a second what is the punt team doing out their?  I want to go for it.

Have that guy 'INTENTIONALLY' false start so we get a penalty so I can put the offense back out their without blowing a time out.

4th and 16.

Now that is better than 4th and 11.  Go for it!

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15 hours ago, Galileo said:

Both Green Bay and Kansas City have scored tonight with the same basic play.  Many teams are running variants of it.  Like anything else, it comes down to execution.

Lots of stupid plays have scored TDs. This play is stupid.

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15 hours ago, Ghost Rider said:

Oh, come on.  The Patriots had more first downs, more total yards, won the time of possession and won the turnover battle 3-0.  I will give the Browns a little props for not completely imploding after that train wreck of a 1st quarter, but to say they outplayed the Patriots today just doesn't pass the sniff test. 

They were in the game even with the 1st quarter debacle.  I'm not going to say the Browns outplayed them, but that says alot.  This team just can't get out of their own way.  The Pats were far from impressive yesterday.  I don't believe for a second they went into cruise control when it was 17-0 either. 

The big play nobody will talk about was the 3rd n 10 screen to White.  That's being totally out coached and the Pats making perfect in-game adjustments.  They went 10 and we brought a DB like we had been most of the game and they let our ends pin their ears back wide.  Nobody in the front recognized anything.  Burris seems like he read the play, but then pauses at the underneath route for no good reason when he was working over to the screen side.  He ended up being too late.  

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Put simply, we need a little zig in our zag once in a while.  I don't see that enough.  On both sides of the ball.

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James Palmer‏Verified account @JamesPalmerTV

Browns trade DE/LB Genard Avery to Eagles

12:05 PM - 28 Oct 2019

--------------------------------------

Jimmy Donovan reported on the  news it is thought to be for a 2021 4th round pick.  

---------------------------------------

Tom Pelissero‏Verified account @TomPelissero

The #Redskins have told other teams they have a second-round pick on the table for LT Trent Williams. So it appears they’re holding out for a first-rounder.

Ian RapoportVerified account @RapSheet

Sources: The #Redskins are now open to dealing star LT Trent Williams. They have begun the process of looking at potential suitors, and the #Browns have been one. Unclear how high they set the asking price, but they’ll at least listen.

1:41 PM - 28 Oct 2019

Edited by Bracie Smathers

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21 hours ago, Bobcat10 said:

They were in the game even with the 1st quarter debacle.  I'm not going to say the Browns outplayed them, but that says alot.  This team just can't get out of their own way.  The Pats were far from impressive yesterday.  I don't believe for a second they went into cruise control when it was 17-0 either. 

The big play nobody will talk about was the 3rd n 10 screen to White.  That's being totally out coached and the Pats making perfect in-game adjustments.  They went 10 and we brought a DB like we had been most of the game and they let our ends pin their ears back wide.  Nobody in the front recognized anything.  Burris seems like he read the play, but then pauses at the underneath route for no good reason when he was working over to the screen side.  He ended up being too late.  

Huge play and spot on, totally coaching. Our defense had been getting after it all game, what's the easiest way to slow them down? Draw or a screen. I believe they ran a draw on the next play or right after the next play.

I don't want Williams at this point, #### Washington. Sunday showed we can run the damn ball all day long. Quit forcing the ball to Odell and let Mayfield create like he did last year. Feed Chubb the ball, let him get 150-200 a game and dink & dunk your way to victory.

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From an ESPN article:

"The Browns are more disorganized than dangerous, and they're one of the season's bigger mysteries when it comes to the up-and-down play of Mayfield and less-than-starry numbers from Beckham. The roster suggests something much finer than a 2-5 start, but the Browns can't get out of their own way -- and it can't be blamed entirely on the offensive line. The Patriots are missing people up and down their front five and lack for stars, but they keep Tom Brady safe game after game. Cleveland lacks the weekly preparation and discipline to eliminate mistakes. They might be closer to that Niners team from a season ago, minus the injury excuses. There is the glimmer of a bright future, yes, but nothing comes handed to you on a silver platter in the NFL. Lesser rosters have toppled Cleveland time and again in 2019."

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1 hour ago, DallasDMac said:

From an ESPN article:

"The Browns are more disorganized than dangerous, and they're one of the season's bigger mysteries when it comes to the up-and-down play of Mayfield and less-than-starry numbers from Beckham. The roster suggests something much finer than a 2-5 start, but the Browns can't get out of their own way -- and it can't be blamed entirely on the offensive line. The Patriots are missing people up and down their front five and lack for stars, but they keep Tom Brady safe game after game. Cleveland lacks the weekly preparation and discipline to eliminate mistakes. They might be closer to that Niners team from a season ago, minus the injury excuses. There is the glimmer of a bright future, yes, but nothing comes handed to you on a silver platter in the NFL. Lesser rosters have toppled Cleveland time and again in 2019."

How exactly do they now the bolded?

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17 hours ago, MAC_32 said:

Whhhhhhheeeeeew

Keith Britton‏Verified account @KeithBritton86

.@CharlesRobinson on Yahoo! Sports NFL Podcast “The Cleveland #Browns are furious w/ the Washington Redskins over Trent Williams.” Says 6 wks ago, Redskins could’ve had 1st rd pk for Williams from CLE. WASH waited 6 wks, CLE basically said “kiss my ###, you’re not calling me now”

4:36 AM - 30 Oct 2019

-----------------------------------

LA‏ @TheRealLA__

Takes two to tango and the GM wasn't up to be violated

4:52 PM - 29 Oct 2019

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On 10/14/2019 at 10:03 AM, Bracie Smathers said:

...the offense drifted away from 12 personnel which was their most effective offensive set last year but by adding the big-play WR it takes from key pass-pro personnel. 

The QBs are not only asked to do different things the offenses are constructed different.  OBJ forces teams to bracket him which is a very-good thing.  Chubb can go house on any carry so that forces outside contain.  Baker has strengths but the goals are different, the philosophy is different.  Every team is a puzzle but a rookie HC/play caller trying to figure it out.  I don't think it should be as difficult and I don't think the numbers should be as awful.   

Warren Sharp‏Verified account @SharpFootball Oct 29

Browns YTD passing splits:

  • From 11: 37% success, 7.1 YPA, 9% sack rate From 12: 62% success, 10.8 YPA, 3% sack rate

Browns YTD rushing splits:

  • From 11: 38% success, 5.0 YPC From 12: 48% success, 6.4 YPC

YTD usage of 12 personnel: Passing: 12% Rushing: 30% Overall: 19% of plays

Warren Sharp‏Verified account @SharpFootball Oct 29

Freddie Kitchens had all season plus the bye to look at these numbers. If he hasn't figured it out by now, he either isn't being presented the data or doesn't think it matters. The Browns are substantially better from 12 than they are from 11 & yet he continues to overuse 11.

6:42 AM - 29 Oct 2019

-----------------------------------

See chart breaking it down in easy to see format 👉 >>>  Chart of 11 VS 12 personnel effectiveness    👀

Edited by Bracie Smathers
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53 minutes ago, Bracie Smathers said:

Keith Britton‏Verified account @KeithBritton86

.@CharlesRobinson on Yahoo! Sports NFL Podcast “The Cleveland #Browns are furious w/ the Washington Redskins over Trent Williams.” Says 6 wks ago, Redskins could’ve had 1st rd pk for Williams from CLE. WASH waited 6 wks, CLE basically said “kiss my ###, you’re not calling me now”

4:36 AM - 30 Oct 2019

-----------------------------------

LA‏ @TheRealLA__

Takes two to tango and the GM wasn't up to be violated

4:52 PM - 29 Oct 2019

I'm losing confidence in Dorsey. I have no qualms with using 2020's #1 on an offensive tackle, but pick one in their early 20's.Then use the $15 mil that Williams would have commanded to sign a bridge to the rookie you choose.

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2 minutes ago, MAC_32 said:

I'm losing confidence in Dorsey. I have no qualms with using 2020's #1 on an offensive tackle, but pick one in their early 20's.Then use the $15 mil that Williams would have commanded to sign a bridge to the rookie you choose.

Think back a month and a half ago.

Tennessee had just blown up our offensive line and dominated them sacking Baker as many times in the  first game as he had in the last eight from 2018.  We lose 43 to 13 in an outright embarrassing loss.  

Dorsey was 'likely' thinking a 6 time Pro Bowl LT would protect Baker's bind side which would improve the timing with OBJ and put us in favorable game scripts and that first would be nowhere near a top-ten pick (today we would be picking #6 in 2020 NFL draft).  

Who knows if Trent Williams deal could have been done at that time?  I think we 'could' have at least two more Ws because we let at least two get away from us and we may have 3 more wins if the deal could have gotten done when it meant something.

It became foolish soon after the initial contact, not recently BUT six weeks ago it was a different set of outcomes.   

At this point I have no idea what we can even hope for because I don't see Kitchens turning into the next coming of Paul Brown or even the next Butch Davis.

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The Browns without Trent Williams are 2-5. The Browns with Trent Williams would also be 2-5.

This team's offensive tackles are not good, but they're also not the reason this team is 2-5. Baker's problems with the line early in the season had little to do with his protection. It was him dropping too deep in the pocket, ball patting, then drifting right until he ended up in the pressure. He's managed the pocket well 3 of the last 4 games. In those 3 games he was sacked once against Baltimore, none against Seattle, and only two of the five against New England happened while the game was still in doubt - neither of which had anything to do with one of the tackles.

Dorsey identifying tackle as such a great need on this team in September that he felt it compelled sacrificing our future #1 and 50% of our projected available salary cap space in 2020 is a self scouting mistake. I don't expect any GM to be perfect, but there are some miscalculations you just can't make. That was it. And no I don't feel good that Washington's incompetence saved Dorsey from himself. Because it leaves me unconfident about what he will or won't do in the future.

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4 minutes ago, MAC_32 said:

The Browns without Trent Williams are 2-5. The Browns with Trent Williams would also be 2-5.

This team's offensive tackles are not good, but they're also not the reason this team is 2-5. Baker's problems with the line early in the season had little to do with his protection. It was him dropping too deep in the pocket, ball patting, then drifting right until he ended up in the pressure. He's managed the pocket well 3 of the last 4 games. In those 3 games he was sacked once against Baltimore, none against Seattle, and only two of the five against New England happened while the game was still in doubt - neither of which had anything to do with one of the tackles.

Dorsey identifying tackle as such a great need on this team in September that he felt it compelled sacrificing our future #1 and 50% of our projected available salary cap space in 2020 is a self scouting mistake. I don't expect any GM to be perfect, but there are some miscalculations you just can't make. That was it. And no I don't feel good that Washington's incompetence saved Dorsey from himself. Because it leaves me unconfident about what he will or won't do in the future.

Baker was/is feeling pressure because HE'S FACED PRESSURE and the raw sack stats prove he's faced pressure so I don't have an opinion that he's faced pressure I have proof with data.  

T-Williams isn't a prospect or a project he's legit six-time Pro Bowl LT.  Insert him and move G-Rob to RG where he belongs and the O-Line sack stats change.  

Kitchens is in charge of how he lines people up and he's stubbornly sticking to 11 personnel which favors a blind-side protector who gives consistent pass-pro so you don't have to keep the TE in to help or chip.  

Kitchens isn't doing it with what he's got to work with.  He's trying to force-fit his personnel into his system and it hasn't worked.  

At least he won''t have the schedule excuse the rest of the season.

--------

Evaluating Team Performance At The Season’s Midway Point BY WARREN SHARP|OCT 30, 2019

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