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Cleveland Browns (4 Viewers)

With the firing coming so quickly I gotta think they want the jump on going after Lincoln.  But seeing how three NFL loves to recycle guys that got fired somewhere else, I wouldn't be surprised if they go after Mike McCartHy.  

I had to laugh to see and be reminded that ShurmurWas once the HC here and Shurmur likely gets fired tomorrow.
Interestingly, Mary Kay Cabot and Dan Labbe writing for Cleveland.com threw together a list of candidates, and Lincoln is not on it.  I respect Mary Kay, but I am not putting much stock in this speculative list.  Jim Harbaugh is on this list.  If that were to come to fruition, I will supply everyone with pitchforks and lead the charge on Haslam's office.

 
Jeremy Fowler‏Verified account @JFowlerESPN

Freddie Kitchens’ firing was about his 6-10 record, but that record spawned from what sources say was an unorganized approach to game-week prep. Kitchens was inexperienced, and it showed in virtually every way.

5:36 PM - 29 Dec 2019

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Coaching matters.  The main arguments that lead to Kitchens hiring were, he wasn't Greg Williams who all the decision makers disliked, he was riding the whirlwind of Baker and the offense, continuity and the 'assumed' continued rise of Baker's learning curve. 

No G-Will, no whirlwind, we don't want continuity of another 10 loss season, no improvement but a glaring lowering of Baker's learning curve.

Freddie was in over his head.  Nice guy but not an NFL HC.

McDaniels blew chunks with the Broncos and left Indy at the alter.  Why the hell would we want him?

McCarthy 'rumored' to have a list of demands.  No, trust is earned.

Rivera would take control but his system doesn't fit our personnel.

I think the clear best option is Gary Kubiak.  Head coaching experience,  AFNC coaching experience, his scheme fits our personnel, former player, won a Super Bowl as a coach,  participated in 7 SBs, he left due to health concerns but he's back and he's doing well enough with the Vikings to prove he hasn't lost it.

No to inexperienced HCs learning on the fly.

 
Interestingly, Mary Kay Cabot and Dan Labbe writing for Cleveland.com threw together a list of candidates, and Lincoln is not on it.  I respect Mary Kay, but I am not putting much stock in this speculative list.  Jim Harbaugh is on this list.  If that were to come to fruition, I will supply everyone with pitchforks and lead the charge on Haslam's office.
i will pay for the pitchforks if you handle the logistics.  

 
If there is a front office re-allignment then first year coach options may be on the table.
Interesting read from a day ago about some front office power struggles... 

https://factoryofsadness.co/2019/12/28/cleveland-browns-rumors-paul-depodesta-power-play/

McDaniels blew chunks with the Broncos and left Indy at the alter.  Why the hell would we want him?
Well, if we let Dee call the shots (from the same article above)...

(Pro Football Network) also included some other scenarios, indicating that several scenarios are on the table following the team’s finale against the Cincinnati Bengals at Paul Brown Stadium.

• Dee Haslam has thrown herself into the mix, and is advocating for Patriots’ offensive coordinator Josh McDaniels to get the gig.

 
Jeremy Fowler‏Verified account @JFowlerESPN

Freddie Kitchens’ firing was about his 6-10 record, but that record spawned from what sources say was an unorganized approach to game-week prep. Kitchens was inexperienced, and it showed in virtually every way.

5:36 PM - 29 Dec 2019

------------------------------------

Coaching matters.  The main arguments that lead to Kitchens hiring were, he wasn't Greg Williams who all the decision makers disliked, he was riding the whirlwind of Baker and the offense, continuity and the 'assumed' continued rise of Baker's learning curve. 

No G-Will, no whirlwind, we don't want continuity of another 10 loss season, no improvement but a glaring lowering of Baker's learning curve.

Freddie was in over his head.  Nice guy but not an NFL HC.

McDaniels blew chunks with the Broncos and left Indy at the alter.  Why the hell would we want him?

McCarthy 'rumored' to have a list of demands.  No, trust is earned.

Rivera would take control but his system doesn't fit our personnel.

I think the clear best option is Gary Kubiak.  Head coaching experience,  AFNC coaching experience, his scheme fits our personnel, former player, won a Super Bowl as a coach,  participated in 7 SBs, he left due to health concerns but he's back and he's doing well enough with the Vikings to prove he hasn't lost it.

No to inexperienced HCs learning on the fly.
I'll start by saying I KNOW you know your Browns and I'll defer so this is more question than poking a bear but...if your list is nothing but retread HCs who have all been fired and flamed out and ran their courses, what are you gaining by NOT giving an inexperienced guy a chance?  They all start somewhere a d they can't all be bad likeKitchens (which I agree, Freddie was obviously in way over his head).  

But not all rookie HCs will be in over their heads.  Some of these guys will be ok IF a team gives them the opportunity. 

I mean, look no farther tha. Your own back yard.  Belichick WAS experienced in the NFL,yet wasn't good enough in the short run for the Browns as a HC.  He needed time.  I only bring this up to illustrate that with experience or not, it's a moving Target.  I look at Kitchens and think it's as clear as Hue Jackson...never gonna happen.  Move on.  But I look at another guy, like, say, the niners DZc and I could see a scenario where he might flame out if he was given a HC gig next year, but he looks like,e a guy that could grow with experience and be a good one.

Kubiak, I just don't know.  I think the Texans should have achieved much more when he was there.   I think he would be a place holder for you.  

 
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I'll start by saying I KNOW you know your Browns and I'll defer so this is more question than poking a bear but...if your list is nothing but retread HCs who have all been fired and flamed out and ran their courses, what are you gaining by NOT giving an inexperienced guy a chance?  
Eliminating anyone because they don't check a particular box is (almost) always a mistake. 

 
they went with an inexperienced HC, and then fired him after a year because he didn’t have enough experience. 
 

i see no scenario that they don’t hire a retread because they believe they are in “win-now” mode.  
 

instead of investing a year in a new HC, they’ve wasted a year now that they’ve flushed him.  
 

so they are a year behind.  and they will feel the need to try to make up that year.  

 
also, TBH, i have NO idea who they should hire. 
 

just throwing out my 2 cents on what direction they will go, now that they have fired Kitchens.  

 
If you’re McCarthy or Rivera you are only taking this job if you get 5 years and are the highest paid HC in the game. 

The only option I can see is a first timer who doesn’t knew he’s fired after 2 years. 

 
So kitchens, early, coached this team to demolish the Ravens whomwe all know are great.  Was this roster a team that would have achieved much more had they hired, say, Mike mcCarthy?

 
also, TBH, i have NO idea who they should hire. 
 

just throwing out my 2 cents on what direction they will go, now that they have fired Kitchens.  
If the Depo power play is legit then I think Andrew Berry/Kevin Stefanski is an option and the fanbase's collective heads would explode. And if it isn't then others of similar ilk may be. But I think Depo is only signing on if he is given full control. 

If that doesn't come to fruition and Dorsey remains at the top and any re-org is below him then you're probably right - it's a vet head coach. Because that tells me the Haslam's aren't comfortable with handing Depo the keys. Instead they will provide their influence. And that always ends well.

 
Mayfield's regression was the nail in Kitchens' coffin. 

Had they gone 6-10, but Mayfield showed improvement this year, maybe he would have survived it. 

 
my guess is that Dorsey has some egg on his face, but has done well enough to get one more hire. 
 

he will go the safe route this time.  
 

if they fire Dorsey it is another full rebuild.  
 

that would be terrible. see the numbers i posted earlier about the Browns records over the years. they’ve had their best two years in a decade.  
 

i know that’s not saying much, but to blow it up again at this point would be a huge mistake. 

 
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my guess is that Dorsey has some egg on his face, but has done well enough to get one more hire. 
 

he will go the safe route this time.  
 

if they fire Dorsey it is another full rebuild.  
 

that would be terrible. see the numbers i posted earlier about the Browns records over the years. they’ve had their best two years in a decade.  
 

i know that’s not saying much, but to blow it up again at this point would be a huge mistake. 
The team isn't getting blown up, nor should it.

 
I'll start by saying I KNOW you know your Browns and I'll defer so this is more question than poking a bear but...if your list is nothing but retread HCs who have all been fired and flamed out and ran their courses, what are you gaining by NOT giving an inexperienced guy a chance?  They all start somewhere a d they can't all be bad likeKitchens (which I agree, Freddie was obviously in way over his head).  

But not all rookie HCs will be in over their heads.  Some of these guys will be ok IF a team gives them the opportunity. 

I mean, look no farther tha. Your own back yard.  Belichick WAS experienced in the NFL,yet wasn't good enough in the short run for the Browns as a HC.  He needed time.  I only bring this up to illustrate that with experience or not, it's a moving Target.  I look at Kitchens and think it's as clear as Hue Jackson...never gonna happen.  Move on.  But I look at another guy, like, say, the niners DZc and I could see a scenario where he might flame out if he was given a HC gig next year, but he looks like,e a guy that could grow with experience and be a good one.

Kubiak, I just don't know.  I think the Texans should have achieved much more when he was there.   I think he would be a place holder for you.  
Their may be a Kyle Shanahan out their, possibly Greg Roman but the team just rolled the dice with that sort of gamble and Roman built his rep on a unique scheme that doesn't fit this team at all.  I like the SF DC but look what he's got to work with.  We don't have four first round picks on our D-Line.  

Side note:   Wilks did a heck of a coaching job early when he lost the entire secondary and still beat the Ravens but the wheels fell off when both Garrett AND Vernon were out and we had no pass rush and losing Morgan Burnett hurt more than I realized.  

A defensive coach isn't addressing the 500 lb gorilla and that is we have to get Baker back on track so we need an offensive coach whose offense fits and Kubes fits. 

 
Freddie was a failure. 
 

but expecting a first time head coach to make the playoffs was stupid. 
 

such short sighted BS by the Browns.  
 

maybe Dorsey should be fired... ugh.  

 
Its unreal how much he was set up to fail. Not only was he a first time HC but he didn't even have a full year as a OC. He only called plays for the second half of the season when Haley got fired. He was basically learning how to run an offense while being HC with a young QB. Management doomed him.

 
Roster-wise, what does everyone think will happen? Defensively is where I think we see the most change. We gave up 30+ points in our last 3 games and the DL was poor, getting pushed off the line and no pass rush to really speak of. We basically had Richardson, Ogunjobi and 2 guys off the street after Myles got suspended.

I think:

  • Randall
  • Obgunjobi
  • Kirksey 
  • Vernon
are all gone. I like Schobert but am 50/50 on him coming back since he's not a Dorsey pick.

 
Roster-wise, what does everyone think will happen? Defensively is where I think we see the most change. We gave up 30+ points in our last 3 games and the DL was poor, getting pushed off the line and no pass rush to really speak of. We basically had Richardson, Ogunjobi and 2 guys off the street after Myles got suspended.

I think:

  • Randall
  • Obgunjobi
  • Kirksey 
  • Vernon
are all gone. I like Schobert but am 50/50 on him coming back since he's not a Dorsey pick.
I think Larry O and Vernon are back.  Hard to base their play on the fact that they were the only constant starters for most of the season with rookies and guys off the street playing next to them (outside of Richardson).

Joe is a shell game they are playing.  They should pay the guy and move on to the next one.  Unless he's asking for the moon, I don't understand why he's not re-signed yet.

 
Peak said:
I think Larry O and Vernon are back.  Hard to base their play on the fact that they were the only constant starters for most of the season with rookies and guys off the street playing next to them (outside of Richardson).

Joe is a shell game they are playing.  They should pay the guy and move on to the next one.  Unless he's asking for the moon, I don't understand why he's not re-signed yet.
Re Scho, it's tough to dismiss the Sashi guy angle. If Dorsey is still in control of the 53 anyway.

Vernon could be back, but he probably needs to restructure. 

No reason to let Ogunjobi go. 

 
Per Schefter: Browns sent formal request to Patriots to interview McDaniels

Rumors around the net are that this interest is very real - from both sides.  McDaniels is said to be very interested in CLE, and Dee Haslam has always been high on McDaniels.  Depending on the process and FO structure (changes pending?), this could really happen.

Talk is that he has matured/grown/learned from his past mistakes and really taken the steps to being a top candidate again.  It helps that he's had Tom Brady in his corner, but he is pushing the right buttons in NE (aside from yesterday's collapse to MIA).  The IND backout was said to be due to Org Structure issues and lack of transparency over Luck's injury status.  McDaniels will want more control than what Dorsey may be willing to give up.  But if Dorsey is moved to a VP of Football Ops role, then that would pave the way for either Elliot Wolf to step in as GM, or for McD to bring in his own GM guy (Ceasario?, Berry?).  

 
Per Schefter: Browns sent formal request to Patriots to interview McDaniels

Rumors around the net are that this interest is very real - from both sides.  McDaniels is said to be very interested in CLE, and Dee Haslam has always been high on McDaniels.  Depending on the process and FO structure (changes pending?), this could really happen.

Talk is that he has matured/grown/learned from his past mistakes and really taken the steps to being a top candidate again.  It helps that he's had Tom Brady in his corner, but he is pushing the right buttons in NE (aside from yesterday's collapse to MIA).  The IND backout was said to be due to Org Structure issues and lack of transparency over Luck's injury status.  McDaniels will want more control than what Dorsey may be willing to give up.  But if Dorsey is moved to a VP of Football Ops role, then that would pave the way for either Elliot Wolf to step in as GM, or for McD to bring in his own GM guy (Ceasario?, Berry?).  
Just think if he would have had a Hall of Fame head coach also helping him out?  

Failure away from the comfort of a Hall of Fame quarterback AND HOF HC? 

We saw what it looked like away from the softest coaching nest in possibly NFL history when he crashed and burned in Denver.  We've seen the New England coaching tree wither many times but Josh McDaniels want more control?  The guy who drafted Tim Tebo wants control?  

 
Wilks coached the Panthers under Rivera to the Super Bowl.

Wilks coached this team for over a month without his two starting corners and lost his starting SS and his two starting Pro Bowl DEs.

He was coaching practice squad guys no one had ever heard of and had to deal with Randall flaking out and getting scratched right before the biggest game of the year.  

Heck Pro Bowl LBer Joe Schobert's solos went from 6.6 a game down to 3.4 after Myles Garrett's suspension and he ranks 3rd in the league for missed tackles and he's playing with two rookies who look lost.  

So the D-Line has guys like Porter Gustin and Bryan Cox Jr. instead of Myles Garrett and a healthy Olivier Vernon and Justin Zimmer meanwhile the LBers had a shell of Joe Schobert after Myles and Vernon were out starting with two clueless rookies and lets not even mention the secondary that has been devastated with so many injuries the names are a revolving door.  

We saw the brilliant game plan against the Ravens when the entire secondary was out and how the entire team took a hit when Myles got suspended.  

 
Just think if he would have had a Hall of Fame head coach also helping him out?  

Failure away from the comfort of a Hall of Fame quarterback AND HOF HC? 

We saw what it looked like away from the softest coaching nest in possibly NFL history when he crashed and burned in Denver.  We've seen the New England coaching tree wither many times but Josh McDaniels want more control?  The guy who drafted Tim Tebo wants control?  
That would be part of the maturity angle and "learning from his mistakes".  

As far as the NE tree, things have been looking up for it lately.  Consider Bill O'Brien, Brian Flores, and Mike Vrabel - the latest branches on the tree that seem to be blooming quite well away from NE.  

I'm not a McDaniels fan by any means, but it would be quite the misconception to consider someone can't learn from past mistakes.  There has to be a reason BB was willing to take McDaniels back in NE after he failed in DEN and STL.  I have to think he's been humbled and learned/grown from past mistakes.

 
We saw the brilliant game plan against the Ravens when the entire secondary was out and how the entire team took a hit when Myles got suspended.
So you're going to hang your hat on that one game?  This stellar defense that couldn't close out a game against some of the worst offensive teams in the NFL over the last month?  

There were more times than naught where I sat there scratching my head wondering why the soft coverage.  When he "coached" up this ragtag group of players one week only to watch them fall apart the next week.  He didn't impress me as much as he has you, apparently.  :shrug:

 
So you're going to hang your hat on that one game?  This stellar defense that couldn't close out a game against some of the worst offensive teams in the NFL over the last month?  

There were more times than naught where I sat there scratching my head wondering why the soft coverage.  When he "coached" up this ragtag group of players one week only to watch them fall apart the next week.  He didn't impress me as much as he has you, apparently.  :shrug:
Box score from yesterday.  This is what Wilks had to work with.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mack Wilson - Rookie who flashed but missed tackles, was out of position, not ready to start.

Joe Schobert - Shell of himself after Garrett suspension, tied for 3rd for missed tackles, solos and TFL down.

Denzel Ward - Out the first six weeks and only recently started to play to last year's level.

Larry Ogunjobi - One of the few bright spots on the defense but everyone has been hampered by Garrett's suspension.

Porter Gustin - Who?

Bryan Cox Jr. - Nowhere near the talent of his progenitor.

Sheldrick Redwine - Very hot-and-cold rookie season, yesterday frigid performance.

Justin Zimmer - Who to the 2nd power, have absolutely no idea who this cat is but he got lots of PT yesterday.

Sheldon Richardson - Another bright spot.  Wilks has been lining him up everywhere trying to plug holes.

Greedy Williams - Lanky, thin frame.  Came in with a rep of being soft against the run and many times he was soft against the run.  Struggled with physical WRs.

Damarious Randall - Cardinal sin of flaking out before the Steelers game. Flaked out with the Packers and has done so with us.

Juston Burris - Played much better than expected.

Tae Davis - ???

Olivier Vernon - Was playing much better than many realized when he was healthy,  sealed edge, funneled plays, contained and pushed pocket.  Great when healthy.

Chad Thomas - Was finally able to get some traps but he's not good.

Eli Ankou - Again, who?

Charley Hughlett - Obviously missed this HALL OF FAMER

Terrance Mitchell - Has been OK.

Adarius Taylor - Have no clue.

Eric Murray - Wasn't thrilled with the signing but he has performed OK considering his measureables and rep.

Sione Takitaki - Little to no impact as a rookie.

 
Box score from yesterday.  This is what Wilks had to work with.
And take a step back and look at how many games each of those played in.  These aren't new guys that just showed up at the gate on Sunday and Wilks said "sure! go get a uniform!"

Majority of guys you've listed have played in multiple games this season.  They have been with the ORG since training camps (a few on the practice squad) with the exception of Bryan Cox, who was added in early November, I believe.  Some of these "no names" contributed in those games where the defense was stout, but only to fall off the next week.  These aren't new players, and Sunday wasn't their first time on the field.  Let's not over-exaggerate the scenario.

I'll admit he hasn't had the roster he thought he was getting when he took the job.  But #### happens.  You roll with it and play to your player's strengths.  Unfortunately, Wilks' MO has been to pigeon hole players into his scheme, instead of making the adjustments and playing to their strengths.  That is the only way I can explain the up and down defense all year.  This was also the same reason he was oustered from AZ.

 
That would be part of the maturity angle and "learning from his mistakes".  

As far as the NE tree, things have been looking up for it lately.  Consider Bill O'Brien, Brian Flores, and Mike Vrabel - the latest branches on the tree that seem to be blooming quite well away from NE.  

I'm not a McDaniels fan by any means, but it would be quite the misconception to consider someone can't learn from past mistakes.  There has to be a reason BB was willing to take McDaniels back in NE after he failed in DEN and STL.  I have to think he's been humbled and learned/grown from past mistakes.
Many wanted to give Freddy more time to mature and grow because ya know, he never was a head coach and had less than one year as a coordinator.  Should we give him Hue Jackson years to learn?

I just don't like McDaniels.  He started out hot in Denver and then it unraveled and got ugly.  Then he had the INDY job but turned it down after he accepted it.  

And take a step back and look at how many games each of those played in.  These aren't new guys that just showed up at the gate on Sunday and Wilks said "sure! go get a uniform!"

Majority of guys you've listed have played in multiple games this season.  They have been with the ORG since training camps (a few on the practice squad) with the exception of Bryan Cox, who was added in early November, I believe.  Some of these "no names" contributed in those games where the defense was stout, but only to fall off the next week.  These aren't new players, and Sunday wasn't their first time on the field.  Let's not over-exaggerate the scenario.

I'll admit he hasn't had the roster he thought he was getting when he took the job.  But #### happens.  You roll with it and play to your player's strengths.  Unfortunately, Wilks' MO has been to pigeon hole players into his scheme, instead of making the adjustments and playing to their strengths.  That is the only way I can explain the up and down defense all year.  This was also the same reason he was oustered from AZ.
The rookie HC was also an enormous problem right.  That HC put the entire team in the weeds with his terrible play calling and lack of understanding of how to manage a game. 

Freddie created untenable game scripts by having Baker throw in obvious run situations which lead to turnovers ALA the Raven game.   WILKS with steaming piles of uh 'players' had held the Ravens to ZERO POINTS in the first half.  The only team in the NFL to hold the Ravens to zero first half points was the Cleveland Browns.  All Freddie had to do was just run the ball but no.  Not Fredo. 

Freddie had no control over the team which lead to veterans flaunting his inexperience in his face, they got away with murder, no discipline just garbage and that horrific head coaching performance threw his defense under the bus.  But its Wilks fault.  People are angry/embarrassed/have plenty of issues to contend with so they want to watch the world burn where everyone is guilty and they are the executioner.   Wilks will go with Rivera and he'll do much better because Rivera will take control, something Freddie failed to do here.

A rookie HC in ARI failed when their GM got busted for DUI and got suspended leaving him dangling with JOSH ROSEN as his starting QB.  The QB so bad that the team moved on from him and drafted Kyler Murray but it was his fault?  He got one year.  Josh McDaniels got two in Denver AND he got to hand pick his QB.  He even MOVED UP FOR TIM TEBOW.

Maybe they should give all rookie HCs Hue Jackson years to learn on the job.  McDaniels looked really good with a HOF QB and HOF HC.   He'll have that here right?

 
The depth Dorsey provided Wilks with was garbage and the starting unit more holes than we believed 4 months ago. He has square peg-round hole issues, but overall I wouldn't look at his performance and call it a failure. If the square peg-round hole is that great of an issue with you then I think that falls more on Dorsey. He gave Wilks the personnel, so if it wasnt a fit then why are you hiring him? 

 
The depth Dorsey provided Wilks with was garbage and the starting unit more holes than we believed 4 months ago. He has square peg-round hole issues, but overall I wouldn't look at his performance and call it a failure. If the square peg-round hole is that great of an issue with you then I think that falls more on Dorsey. He gave Wilks the personnel, so if it wasnt a fit then why are you hiring him? 
Yeah, Dorsey can't pick a head coach, don't look at Andy Reid or the fact he chose correctly with G-Will over Haley for interim HC.  His ONLY HC selection was Kitchens so he doesn't know how to pick a HC.  Leave that to Dee Haslam.  Her record is spotless.

Dorsey inherited a team that hadn't had a franchise QB since Ronald Reagan.  Coincidentally that was the last time the team was good.  His mission was to get the franchise, he got it.  

His HOF OT retired and the previous regime let their Pro Bowl RT go because um...  They ####ed up bigtime.  Leaving an enormous hole.  

You were completely against reaching for OT in the first round pick because you said it was a poor OT draft class, it was so Dorsey got the highest rated OT per PFF that year and was able to get Robinson on the wire to settle down the pass rush as evidenced by 2 sacks the last 8 games.  

He made two trades and  drafted an OT but the O-Line did not seem as dire before, un Freddie's game plans came into effect this year.

GM  performance comes back their job of acquiring talent to fill the three cornerstones of franchise QB, pass rusher, and blind side protector.  Dorsey is now responsible for Kitchens since he chose him but he wasn't alone.  Now they better find a guy who is just OK and not a disaster but it would be great if they landed a great HC because I'm confident Dorsey will land the blind side protector.   

Lots of things will fall into place so long as Haslams don't screw it up ALA Johnny Manziel,  Hue Jackson, and whichever homeless guy they use as sources.

 
Latest HC Request....

Per Schefter, Cleveland has requested to interview Greg Roman

Not sure how I feel on this one.  He's creative offensively for sure, but it never appears to be sustainable.  Is it because he leaves for the next job?  Ryan was great, then regressed.  Kapernick was great, then he left.  Tyrod was great, then he left.  Lamar is his latest project, and it looks like the same trend.  Will Lamar regress if he leaves?  Does his scheme fit Baker's talents?  Can Roman build around Baker's strengths?

Worth interviewing as he's had success as an OC in many places.

 
The rookie HC was also an enormous problem right.  That HC put the entire team in the weeds with his terrible play calling and lack of understanding of how to manage a game. 
I would steer clear of any Rookie HC candidates.  Aside from Freddie, these have never really worked in our favor.  Was the Butch Davis the last one that did well?  Then he had serious medical issues...so I guess Cleveland broke him.

McDaniels looked really good with a HOF QB and HOF HC.   He'll have that here right?
Who knows how he'll look outside of his 2nd stint in NE.  Did he grow/mature having more time under BB?  That NE offense is decimated, yet his offensive play calling helped keep the ball moving and the team scoring.  Tom wasn't drawing up those plays in the dirt, but he definitely helped make them successful.  Again, not a McDaniels fan, but a lot of smoke coming out of CLE with him being in the middle of it.

 
MAC_32 said:
The team isn't getting blown up, nor should it.
Not a full tear down coming. But they’ve been dismantling parts of it all season. Parts that I thought had a chance to contribute this year and some that I thought would be around for a while. 

 
Latest HC Request....

Per Schefter, Cleveland has requested to interview Greg Roman

Not sure how I feel on this one.  He's creative offensively for sure, but it never appears to be sustainable.  Is it because he leaves for the next job?  Ryan was great, then regressed.  Kapernick was great, then he left.  Tyrod was great, then he left.  Lamar is his latest project, and it looks like the same trend.  Will Lamar regress if he leaves?  Does his scheme fit Baker's talents?  Can Roman build around Baker's strengths?

Worth interviewing as he's had success as an OC in many places.
From my understanding Harbaugh is the guy who pushed in all of the chips to go with Roman's system but Roman came up with it.  He had/has Lamar but it was/is a brilliant scheme.  I give Harbs a lot of credit too since you need a HC to recognize value and understand how to leverage it.  I noticed how much resources the Ravens put into Roman/Lamar and was really curious to see how it turned out.  Better than even the most die hard Rat fan could imagine.  Not just the scheme, the GM got on board and got personnel to bet the house on that scheme.  

I love what they created, no copycat derivative tripe.  No wonder they have the league's best record and highest scoring offense but it takes a village to recreate what they did in Baltimore.  That scheme would not work here so you'd be betting on Roman molding Baker and/or creating another unique scheme and that is a high standard.  I think he's a good OC but I have no idea how he'd handle being a HC or how'd he'd mesh with Baker and the boys. 

Who knows how he'll look outside of his 2nd stint in NE.  Did he grow/mature having more time under BB?  That NE offense is decimated, yet his offensive play calling helped keep the ball moving and the team scoring.  Tom wasn't drawing up those plays in the dirt, but he definitely helped make them successful.  Again, not a McDaniels fan, but a lot of smoke coming out of CLE with him being in the middle of it.
Tom Brady has played at an elevated level for so long that Freddie could call plays and he would make him look great.  Now that Tom Terrific is showing signs of age that offense hasn't looked as good.  The personnel wasn't nearly good with the supporting cast but he had a HOF QB and HQ who knows how to manage games better than anyone.  The HOF QB took a hometown discount and veteran FAs fall over themselves to sign with NE and quite frankly the refs show a lot of favoritism to that team/HC.   

I was in Colorado when Josh was hired.  Just look at his introductory PC.  No one believed in him.  He went on a win streak and they fell over themselves over teh whiz kid and they gave him power and he used it on Tebow.  Don't have to explain how it turned out but then the Indianapolis debacle.  If we hire him the league will laugh in our faces once again. 

 
Where you and I fundamentally disagree is I think the GM's job is so much bigger than talent acquisition, that's what his deputies are there for. He is the architect. Even more so because he had as much power as he did, not just the roster but the coaching staff too. 

Given the pile of assets he was given to start with I think the job he has done acquiring talent has been boom or bust, his coaching hires terrible, and none of it gelled together. The last two are not debatable, that was a failure. Point one is, but even his staunch defenders can't make an argument without going the what about route rather than assessing what he has actually done. Defensively:

The starting unit on the line was great, but he got rid of his depth and the depth he prioritized sucked.

The starting unit at lb was good, but the depth he prioritized sucked.

The starting secondary was the weak spot going into the season, made worse because Randall stopped caring, and the new toys he added sucked (notice a theme?). 

You can play the same game on offense. If the new coaching staff can get Njoku back on track then you have 8 starters on offense, 3 of them were already here, and nobody behind them is useful. If Schobert is retained then you have 6 starters of defense, 3 of them were already here, and there are only a couple of pieces behind them that look like they could develop into something useful. So Dorsey defenders claim he has done a great job and he's added...8 starters. With an unprecedented amount of assets. 

The core of this team is solid if Baker removes his head from his ### over the next few months. There is no glue between them and the end of the bench though. It all sucks. I'm not saying Dorsey needs to go, but this mess is on him as much as anyone. If he gets re-assigned or whacked then he's earned it. I expected better.

 
Not a full tear down coming. But they’ve been dismantling parts of it all season. Parts that I thought had a chance to contribute this year and some that I thought would be around for a while. 
If there is front office re-allignment then I expect a focus on glue. The core of this team presents a good starting point. There is no foundation though. That's what I'd expect out of this offseason if someone other than Dorsey controls the roster. 

 
How many holes were here before Dorsey?  You seem to think his regime started with Baker,  with Denzel, with Chubb, with Landry, with OBJ, with everything in place.  No it didn't.  Sashi had glaring holes and had plenty of misses but knew/knows analytics better than most people on earth related to the NFL but his talent picking record is spotty at best.  His QB was Kizer for gosh sakes.  Landing a franchise QB is the white whale of this franchise since Kozar.  So don't dismiss that as nothing or that anyone could have done it because Sashi blew his chance two times in the previous two drafts and kept kicking that can down the road.  

Also, this BS about you could have done better with the resources or the many many many twitter account GMs who don't and won't ever have an  NFL job could.  Pretty easy to sit behind a keyboard and make perfect choices but when you have real money/power/egos/politics, when its real lets see how the fog of war would effect those perfect clean picks.  We haven't a clue on what happens behind the scenes so I look at the big picture and Dorsey has done the big picture job so I will not come down on him for nit picky things.  That would be like grilling Freddie over a call or two when the big picture showed very-early on that he was in over his head.  

For you.  You want this guy in charge? 

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Charles Robinson‏Verified account @CharlesRobinson

Browns structure will be shaped based on the coach. It’s clear Jimmy Haslam is fully at the controls now. If Josh McDaniels were the hire, I’d look at #Patriots Dave Ziegler as a GM candidate with Dorsey being out and Paul DePodesta having to make a decision whether to stay.

8:31 AM - 30 Dec 2019

 
If there is front office re-allignment then I expect a focus on glue. The core of this team presents a good starting point. There is no foundation though. That's what I'd expect out of this offseason if someone other than Dorsey controls the roster. 
I thought you guys were discussing Dorsey tearing it down. Carry on. 

 
I thought you guys were discussing Dorsey tearing it down. Carry on. 
Nah, that was if there is front office changes. I am skeptical about what Dorsey may do if he retains control of the 53 though. Because it may be the opposite of a tear down. GM's with warm seats have a tendency to make short sighted decisions at the expense of long term sustainability. 

 

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