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wadegarrett

**** CLEVELAND BROWNS THREAD ****

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Not to completely distract from the coaching/FO discussion, but I'm curious what Browns fans felt about Edwin Baker down the stretch. I didn't get to see any of the games, but I'm wondering if he's a decent offseason stash for dynasty, given his *decent* production and history with Norv, who the team supposedly wants to keep. Many say they're going to draft a RB, but teams often turn in-house for solutions if they feel the draft picks are better spent elsewhere.

Obviously a new HC will affect the whole team personnel and philosophy wise, but would you rather be stashing Baker or Dion Lewis at this point? Why?

Where are you getting they want to keep Norv? I've heard the opposite and he's all but officially been let go.

I'd rather stash Lewis because Bracie was pimping Baker above.

McDaniels being interviewed Saturday...the stars are aligning!

I thought I read something the other day once Chud was fired that the speculation was they wanted to maintain all assistants on staff. Since then, they've obviously replaced Horton at DC, and I'm not sure Norv would stick around anyway, but I haven't heard anything to the contrary since.

Any HC would want to put his own staff in place, though, I would think...

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If the Browns hire Schwartz as DC before hiring a HC it won't shock me.

But, when you are trying to be the worst team in the NFL you have to make moves like this to get there.

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Not to completely distract from the coaching/FO discussion, but I'm curious what Browns fans felt about Edwin Baker down the stretch. I didn't get to see any of the games, but I'm wondering if he's a decent offseason stash for dynasty, given his *decent* production and history with Norv, who the team supposedly wants to keep. Many say they're going to draft a RB, but teams often turn in-house for solutions if they feel the draft picks are better spent elsewhere.

Obviously a new HC will affect the whole team personnel and philosophy wise, but would you rather be stashing Baker or Dion Lewis at this point? Why?

Baker looked like a decent backup.>>>> AGREE!

Lewis probably 3rd down back. >>>>>>>AGREE!

Norv is not staying.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I don't know

I think the Browns will make a run at Houston free agent RB Ben Tate and put him in competition with, Baker and Lewis and Obgannayo, and ??whoever with Tate getting the most reps and Lewis as the third down back with Baker and Silent-G as backups.

If Norv comes back then Obi probably continues in the fullback role.

Dion Lewis looked really good last year in camp and exhibition games so if he stays healthy he could be a legitmate sleeper for next year.

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Hoyer QB

Tate RB

use your first 2 picks in the draft on o-line and potentially clowney

could see a huge improvement next season.

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Hoyer QB

Tate RB

use your first 2 picks in the draft on o-line and potentially clowney

could see a huge improvement next season.

who would you bring in to back up Hoyer?

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Hoyer QB

Tate RB

use your first 2 picks in the draft on o-line and potentially clowney

could see a huge improvement next season.

who would you bring in to back up Hoyer?

keep campbell or weeden, I guess.

we aren't in win now mode, so why not test Hoyer for a full season and see if he's the real deal like he seemed to be. bulk up on positions of other importance

if he isn't, make a move to get mariota next season - he's better than any QB in this class anyways

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Hoyer QB

Tate RB

use your first 2 picks in the draft on o-line and potentially clowney

could see a huge improvement next season.

who would you bring in to back up Hoyer?

keep campbell or weeden, I guess.

we aren't in win now mode, so why not test Hoyer for a full season and see if he's the real deal like he seemed to be. bulk up on positions of other importance

if he isn't, make a move to get mariota next season - he's better than any QB in this class anyways

Weeden isn't even a backup quality NFL QB.

maybe Campbell... but i doubt he will be back next year either.

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keep campbell or weeden, I guess.

we aren't in win now mode, so why not test Hoyer for a full season and see if he's the real deal like he seemed to be. bulk up on positions of other importance

if he isn't, make a move to get mariota next season - he's better than any QB in this class anyways

Because the coach will know, if he doesn't win 9 or 10 games now, he won't get a second season.

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keep campbell or weeden, I guess.

we aren't in win now mode, so why not test Hoyer for a full season and see if he's the real deal like he seemed to be. bulk up on positions of other importance

if he isn't, make a move to get mariota next season - he's better than any QB in this class anyways

Because the coach will know, if he doesn't win 9 or 10 games now, he won't get a second season.

Hoyer gives you a much better chance to win than a rookie who has never taken a snap in the pros

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keep campbell or weeden, I guess.

we aren't in win now mode, so why not test Hoyer for a full season and see if he's the real deal like he seemed to be. bulk up on positions of other importance

if he isn't, make a move to get mariota next season - he's better than any QB in this class anyways

Because the coach will know, if he doesn't win 9 or 10 games now, he won't get a second season.

That's not exactly the message sent on Monday.

Anyways, Mariota still might come out this year from reports I've seen. If he stays, your gonna have to be a 2 or 3 win team next year to get Winston or Mariota. I don't think it's going to be easy to make a move for them, unless maybe we're seeing the teams that draft the top QBs this year in the same draft position next year.

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Hoyer gives you a much better chance to win than a rookie who has never taken a snap in the pros

I would like to think this would be true if Hoyer was healthy.

Hoyer coming off an ACL tear, sorry, but that does not give me much confidence that he will be nearly as good as he would have been if he didn't get hurt.

I mean, are there really still people out there that think a guy coming off an ACL tear is going to be good to go like nothing ever happened?? Even if he physically comes back 100%, all that time and effort rehabbing his knee would have normally been spent on other things that would contribute to making him a better QB, not making him able to walk and run.

Edited by ghostguy123

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Hoyer gives you a much better chance to win than a rookie who has never taken a snap in the pros

I would like to think this would be true if Hoyer was healthy.

Hoyer coming off an ACL tear, sorry, but that does not give me much confidence that he will be nearly as good as he would have been if he didn't get hurt.

I mean, are there really still people out there that think a guy coming off an ACL tear is going to be good to go like nothing ever happened?? Even if he physically comes back 100%, all that time and effort rehabbing his knee would have normally been spent on other things that would contribute to making him a better QB, not making him able to walk and run.

if he were newton, rg3, kap, vick... I worry about the ACL

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if he were newton, rg3, kap, vick... I worry about the ACL

I would worry very much about it no matter who it was. Even Brady, who was a seasoned vet already, had issues coming back, and he even got hurt week 1.

I don't care who you are at QB, it's a problem. Instead of spending as much time as he can working on his mechanics and leaning to read defenses better, he has to allocate a ton of time to strictly rehab. It is a problem. It's a problem even if he is physically at 100% of what he was the second before he got hurt. It's a HUGE problem if he isn't.

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Hoyer QB

Tate RB

use your first 2 picks in the draft on o-line and potentially clowney

could see a huge improvement next season.

If Jim Schwartz is hired, remember he is a 4-3 guy. The Browns currently play a 3-4, so they will have to use high picks on DL to be able to play the new scheme.

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Hoyer QB

Tate RB

use your first 2 picks in the draft on o-line and potentially clowney

could see a huge improvement next season.

If Jim Schwartz is hired, remember he is a 4-3 guy. The Browns currently play a 3-4, so they will have to use high picks on DL to be able to play the new scheme.

The Browns are one year removed from the 4-3 and didn't turn over the DL really at all...actually improved it with players that can work in both systems. They were improving under Jauron and alot of people were against the switch.

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If Desmond Bryant can play again Cleveland will actually have a pretty good dline rotation for the 4-3. Not sure what they'll do with Mingo though.

Situational pass rusher or lol Richardson him.

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If Desmond Bryant can play again Cleveland will actually have a pretty good dline rotation for the 4-3. Not sure what they'll do with Mingo though.

Agreed.

Sheard can go back to playing DE like he was before last season.

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if he were newton, rg3, kap, vick... I worry about the ACL

I would worry very much about it no matter who it was. Even Brady, who was a seasoned vet already, had issues coming back, and he even got hurt week 1.

I don't care who you are at QB, it's a problem. Instead of spending as much time as he can working on his mechanics and leaning to read defenses better, he has to allocate a ton of time to strictly rehab. It is a problem. It's a problem even if he is physically at 100% of what he was the second before he got hurt. It's a HUGE problem if he isn't.

AND he'll be learning a new playbook since we are getting a new coach. I agree that Hoyer is going to struggle next year no matter how strong he comes back, just too much a QB is asked to do these days.

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Just got some info that Tressel will be interviewing for the Browns HC position in the next few days.

Great hire imo. Please happen

ETA: schefter comes out and says the rumblings are BS.

damn you, twitter

Edited by Soulfly3

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Just got some info that Tressel will be interviewing for the Browns HC position in the next few days.

Great hire imo. Please happen

ETA: schefter comes out and says the rumblings are BS.

damn you, twitter

Tressel seems like a great guy, but i think he'd be a horrible fit as an NFL coach.

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#### it.

The Browns HAVE to draft Watkins at 1.05. Just ####### do it so we can cheer for something.

But who do they take at 1.04?

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#### it.

The Browns HAVE to draft Watkins at 1.05. Just ####### do it so we can cheer for something.

I'd love that pick there, then trade up if necessary from the Colts spot in the 1st round to get a RT to move Schwartz in to Guard.

Take a RB, QB, and a G in the next 3 picks unless something happens in free agency to fill in the G or RB.

And please resign Mack you cheap ********.

Give Hoyer a good line and whoever our new starting Rb will be a good line.

Yeah we need another CB too, I know.

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Watkins would seriously be the BEST possible move for Gordon and Hoyer.

Keeps the double teams off of Gordon, Stretches the field, and gives Hoyer 3 solid options to throw to (gordon, watkins, cameron)

I am usually against a WR this year.. almost always... but w what Gordon showed us, we need a Watkins opposite him. Use the rest of the picks on o-line and the defensive side...

I can see us at .500 next season

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Really love hearing that Whisenhunt will be given another shot. This comes after Banner said at their presser that nobody from last year's search would be part of this search. Have to think that is coming directly from the top because of the Pittsburgh ties. Hopefully Haslam can figure out how to appease Whiz and Banner/Lombardi because the sticking point last year was Whiz wasn't getting any power.

edit: Or, as Grossi just put it, a knee jerk reaction to McDaniels bowing out. Fact is, we'll never know what really happened with all of this. From the firing to the hiring. Now Rizzo is floating that Banner wanted Chud to fire Turner's kid and that was another tipping point if 4-12 wasn't enough.

Edited by Bobcat10

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Franklin to Penn State. I liked the little I've heard/read about him lately. Much more than Malzahn. I'm assuming Franklin wanted to stay in college or he'd have interviewed with NFL teams.

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Just got some info that Tressel will be interviewing for the Browns HC position in the next few days.

Great hire imo. Please happen

ETA: schefter comes out and says the rumblings are BS.

damn you, twitter

Tressel seems like a great guy, but i think he'd be a horrible fit as an NFL coach.

lol

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so basically, they could've had Whizenhunt last year, and now have to fight two other teams for him after turning him down last year.

i will be amazed if they can pull this off.

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i'm guessing the "interview" is going to consist of them handing him a duffle bag full of 100 dollar bills.

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so basically, they could've had Whizenhunt last year, and now have to fight two other teams for him after turning him down last year.

i will be amazed if they can pull this off.

They interviewed him twice so they like him.

I like Wisenhunt and would want him but as you've said, we have competitiion so why would he choose Cleveland?

Well lets look at the negatives before any positives working in our favor.

Detroit - they already have a QB who has shown he is more than capable of starting and playing well. Megatron, Reggie Bush, Joique Bell, that incredibel D-Line and a fan base hungry for any sort of winning.

The biggest thing that Detroit has over Cleveland is the quarterback and that is HUGE!

Tennesee - um if he likes Locker and/or Fitzpatrick as his QB to build around and I just don't see that so I think the big competition is Detroit.

Sold young core to build from

Five Pro Bowlers, all young, and TJ Ward named to All-Pro team to make a solid young core of six solid players

Draft picks

First pick is #4 and the club also has additional, 1st, 3rd, and 4th round picks.

Cap space

Browns hold the third most draft cap space of any NFL team

Club wants him

They obviously had more than a passing interest last year and are interested this year.

Additional things in our favor over other teams

- Wisenhunt hired DC Ray Horton to his coaching staff and he is already in Cleveland and under contract. A perfect situation already in place for his defensive coordinator who already has his system up-and-running.

- Wisenhunt lost out to Mike Tomlin to coach the Steelers and he also lost a Super Bowl to Pittsburgh. Those two blows had to sting and I'm sure he would love nothing more than to coach in the AFCN and prove his coaching chops.

- He was the HC in Arizona when they signed QB Brian Hoyer so he saw something in Brian and probably followed what he did last year with the Browns so he knoiws what Hoyer is capable of and would feel comfortable starting him even if/when the Browns draft a young QB who may need time to develop so having a guy like Brian Hoyer would be essential for taking the job.

- Wisenhunt has already coached in Cleveland as an assistant 14 years ago so he is familiar with the AFCN and the Cleveland area. Not a huge positive but paired goes hand-in-glove with just being familiar with the AFCN.

============================

Wisenhunt could be thee-guy that the club wants and if we interviewed him twice last year then he can see that the job is much more attractive now than it was last year because of WR Josh Gordon and TE Jordan Cameron developing on offense and the club already has DC Ray Horton in place and we've added players like, DE/OLB Quentin Groves and DE Desmond Bryant and DE Armonty Bryant along with the development of CB Joe Haden to Pro Bowl status and SS TJ Ward to All-Pro status.

The fact we fired Chudzinski means that the new HC knows the club can't fire him after one-year, they simply CAN'T no matter what the record is at the end of 2014.

The biggest thing to land Wisenhunt won't be money, it will be CONTROL!

If our front office gives him more CONTROL over the final roster and input on free agency signings then Wisenhunt probably has some 'guys' of his own that he'd like the front office to sign, possibly he has a QB of his own that he likes, and obviously he'd want a big say in what direction the Browns would take going forward at the quarterback position. I think THAT is the big thing and we need to bend a bit to get Wiz and I hope we do because I really like him.

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so basically, they could've had Whizenhunt last year, and now have to fight two other teams for him after turning him down last year.

i will be amazed if they can pull this off.

You never know, but it might be soon, as Whisenhunt could be avail as soon as Sunday night.

I expect him to sign with Detroit, he is a former teammate of GM Martin Mayhew, Stafford, Johnson and Bush are already the nucleus of a potent offense and they have some talent on defense in the front seven with Suh, Fairly, Ansah, Tulloch and Levy (admittedly Gordon and Cameron would also comprise nice pieces of the puzzle, and CLE has some talent on defense as well).

Whisenhunt got some credit for developing a young Rothliesberger, went to a Super Bowl with the older Kurt Warner and helped get Rivers back on track.

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Dolphins announce that Ray Farmer has been interviewed

Posted by Mike Florio on January 11, 2014, 7:07 PM EST
farmer.jpg?w=243Getty Images

Regarded as the frontrunner to succeed Jeff Ireland as the General Manager of the Dolphins, Ray Farmer officially has completed his interview.

The team has announced that Farmer’s interview has been completed.

Farmer, 39, serves as the assistant General Manager of the Browns. He was hired from the Chiefs last year, and he was a fourth-round pick of the Eagles in 1996.

He’s the fourth candidate whose interview has been announced by the Dolphins. On Friday, Miami announced that Dolphins assistant G.M. Brian Gaine, Steelers director of football and business administration Omar Khan, and Cardinals V.P. of player personnel Jason Licht had been interviewed.

The Dolphins have committed to transparency when it comes to identifying the candidate for the job.

**** Special Note: Englishteacher grew up with Ray and played baseball with him. If the Dolphins hire him, the Browns will be losing a valuable asset and a spectacular individual.

Edited by Englishteacher

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Dolphins announce that Ray Farmer has been interviewed

Posted by Mike Florio on January 11, 2014, 7:07 PM EST

Regarded as the frontrunner to succeed Jeff Ireland as the General Manager of the Dolphins, Ray Farmer officially has completed his interview.

The team has announced that Farmer’s interview has been completed.

Farmer, 39, serves as the assistant General Manager of the Browns. He was hired from the Chiefs last year, and he was a fourth-round pick of the Eagles in 1996.

He’s the fourth candidate whose interview has been announced by the Dolphins. On Friday, Miami announced that Dolphins assistant G.M. Brian Gaine, Steelers director of football and business administration Omar Khan, and Cardinals V.P. of player personnel Jason Licht had been interviewed.

The Dolphins have committed to transparency when it comes to identifying the candidate for the job.

**** Special Note: Englishteacher grew up with Ray and played baseball with him. If the Dolphins hire him, the Browns will be losing a valuable asset and a spectacular individual.

I agree and so does long-time Brown beat writer Marla Ridenour.

In this podcast interview where she makes a very-good case for Cleveland to keep Ray Farmer and promote him to GM and give him more authority.

Have to say I agree with evey point she makes in the interview.

Give it a listen if you have the time.

http://cleveland.cbslocal.com/2014/01/10/marla-ridenour-tough-to-comprehend-keeping-lombardi-over-ray-farmer/

Marla Ridenour: Tough To Comprehend Keeping Lombardi Over Ray Farmer
With Baskin & Phelps - Weekdays - 10am-2pmJanuary 10, 2014 12:23 PM

Akron Beacon Journal columnist Marla Ridenour joined Baskin & Phelps Friday to discuss her column wondering why the Browns would part ways with assistant GM Ray Farmer when he may be the next start GM in the league, wanting to promote Farmer over letting him interview with Miami, and more!

Podcast:

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Dolphins announce that Ray Farmer has been interviewed

Posted by Mike Florio on January 11, 2014, 7:07 PM EST

Regarded as the frontrunner to succeed Jeff Ireland as the General Manager of the Dolphins, Ray Farmer officially has completed his interview.

The team has announced that Farmer’s interview has been completed.

Farmer, 39, serves as the assistant General Manager of the Browns. He was hired from the Chiefs last year, and he was a fourth-round pick of the Eagles in 1996.

He’s the fourth candidate whose interview has been announced by the Dolphins. On Friday, Miami announced that Dolphins assistant G.M. Brian Gaine, Steelers director of football and business administration Omar Khan, and Cardinals V.P. of player personnel Jason Licht had been interviewed.

The Dolphins have committed to transparency when it comes to identifying the candidate for the job.

**** Special Note: Englishteacher grew up with Ray and played baseball with him. If the Dolphins hire him, the Browns will be losing a valuable asset and a spectacular individual.

I agree and so does long-time Brown beat writer Marla Ridenour.

In this podcast interview where she makes a very-good case for Cleveland to keep Ray Farmer and promote him to GM and give him more authority.

Have to say I agree with evey point she makes in the interview.

Give it a listen if you have the time.

http://cleveland.cbslocal.com/2014/01/10/marla-ridenour-tough-to-comprehend-keeping-lombardi-over-ray-farmer/

Marla Ridenour: Tough To Comprehend Keeping Lombardi Over Ray Farmer
With Baskin & Phelps - Weekdays - 10am-2pmJanuary 10, 2014 12:23 PM

Akron Beacon Journal columnist Marla Ridenour joined Baskin & Phelps Friday to discuss her column wondering why the Browns would part ways with assistant GM Ray Farmer when he may be the next start GM in the league, wanting to promote Farmer over letting him interview with Miami, and more!

Podcast:

Thnaks for the link!

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A recap of the past decade of QB play in CLE. Obviously a lot of positional mediocrity and resulting turnover.

http://www.cantonrep.com/article/20140111/SPORTS/140119884/2000/NEWS#NEWS/?tag=2

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In this podcast interview where she makes a very-good case for Cleveland to keep Ray Farmer and promote him to GM and give him more authority.

Do you think there is any chance of that happening in Cleveland?

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In this podcast interview where she makes a very-good case for Cleveland to keep Ray Farmer and promote him to GM and give him more authority.

Do you think there is any chance of that happening in Cleveland?

Not just yes but hell yes.

Banner and Lombardi along with Ray Farmer formed the front office that Haslam interacted with. They made the case to Haslam to fire Chud which now places the onus on Banner/Lombardi but if Banner is smart, and he is, he realizes that if he can pry his own power hand open and give some power away that Haslam would direct his wrath to the guy who Banner gives power. Banner then is golden because if the guy he gives power to is successful then all boast rise with high tide of success including Joe Banner but if the guy fails then Banner can step-in and reclaim the power that he gave away.

Banner and Lombardi are pretty smart. Just look at how they are framing the Chud firiing. They make a pretty convincing argument for letting him go.

The Chud firing was not popular but things have filtered out.

- Chud/Norv were behind Weeden beind named starter over Hoyer/Cambell

- Chud/Norv didn't initiate the Trent Richardson deal, that came from Banner/Lombardi/Farmer, Chud/Norv had to sign off on it and they played the role of good soldiers but that deal drew heat to the front office and sympathy for Chud but that has changed where the front office looks really good and got juice from that deal

- After the T-Rich deal Chud/Norv wanted RB Willis McGahee and the front office delivered him but they didn't want him so they kept fishing for other RBs with upside

- The front office signed RB Bobby Rainey but Chud/Norv didn't play him so they wound up cutting him and he blew up in Tampa Bay. That was another Chud/Norv personnel blunder

- The front office then signed RB Edwin Baker but Chud/Norv didn't play him either until McGahee got injured and Baker looked pretty good so another mishandling of the roster from Chud/Norv

About the only thing that the front office did not give Chud/Norv was a standard fullback. The rest of the roster managing was soley on Chud/Norv and one of the reporters said that they think that Chud had final say on the roster. He and Norv were definitely behind starting Weeden over Hoyer/Cambell. Chud and Norv were behind Willis McGahee over Bobby Rainey/Edwin Baker. Their were a few other personnel blunders that were on Chud as well that I can't recall just now.

So it sounds to me like Jimmy went to Chud and asked him to reliquish power over the final roster to the front office and he refused which made firing him a reasonable thing for Haslam to do but now the gentlemen who will get fired if the team doesn;'t win will obviouusly be Banner, Lombardi, and Farmer if he stays.

The only way Farmer stays is if Banner gives him the juice and if he kicks Lombardi upstairs.

It would be a very-wise move for the Machevelian Joe Banner to consider so I think it is very possible that it happens.

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Their were a few other personnel blunders that were on Chud as well that I can't recall just now.

little and Bess.

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:goodposting:

Citing conversations with people around the league, NFL Network's Albert Breer says the feeling is the Browns' head-coaching job is viewed as "radioactive."

"Tough spot for them," added Breer of the Browns, who were quickly spurned by Patriots OC Josh McDaniels. The Browns have an alleged-criminal owner and kicked Rob Chudzinski aside after one year on the job, also letting outstanding coordinators Ray Horton and Norv Turner leave without a fight. There is no franchise quarterback or running back on the roster. It's not surprising coaches around the league aren't lining up to succeed Chudzinski.

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I feel sorry for Browns fans. I wish them success but do not see any light at the end of this tunnel.

ive been very negative about this team for years, but I have always cared. I don't even really care right now.

It's sad.

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Their were a few other personnel blunders that were on Chud as well that I can't recall just now.

little and Bess.

The front office traded for bess on April 26th.

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:goodposting:

Citing conversations with people around the league, NFL Network's Albert Breer says the feeling is the Browns' head-coaching job is viewed as "radioactive."

"Tough spot for them," added Breer of the Browns, who were quickly spurned by Patriots OC Josh McDaniels. The Browns have an alleged-criminal owner and kicked Rob Chudzinski aside after one year on the job, also letting outstanding coordinators Ray Horton and Norv Turner leave without a fight. There is no franchise quarterback or running back on the roster. It's not surprising coaches around the league aren't lining up to succeed Chudzinski.

I sure would be. Chud is making 10 million the next three years to do nothing, and he can to work another job and make even more. Chud made out.

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So what you're telling me Bracie is that Banner/Lombardi have done an excellent job getting the story out that everything that went well was their idea and everything that went wrong was Chud/Norv.

I'm 100% not surprised.

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Their were a few other personnel blunders that were on Chud as well that I can't recall just now.

little and Bess.

The front office traded for bess on April 26th.

The front office made the trade which amounted to giving up no draft picks, only moving down in the draft so it looked like a steal and was widely applauded.

The problem came during the season when Bess uncharacteristically started dropping balls. WR Greg Little continued his long suffering dropped passes modis operendi and it was exasperating to see Davone Bess start dropping passes so the front office wanted to send a signal and wanted the coaches to either cut Little or Bess and start Josh Cooper whom the coaches were not playing but kept plugging in Little and Bess over Coop who finally got playing time in the season finale and he caught just about everything thrown his way.

So Mac was pointing out that the coaches made yet another coaching/personnel blunder that flew in the face of the front office desires.

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So what you're telling me Bracie is that Banner/Lombardi have done an excellent job getting the story out that everything that went well was their idea and everything that went wrong was Chud/Norv.

I'm 100% not surprised.

Well Plasma, go ahead and defend those moves by Chud.

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So what you're telling me Bracie is that Banner/Lombardi have done an excellent job getting the story out that everything that went well was their idea and everything that went wrong was Chud/Norv.

I'm 100% not surprised.

Well Plasma, go ahead and defend those moves by Chud.

I think the point is, they are blaming Chud for things that are their own fault.

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