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Why do people join leagues and give $100-200 to strangers? (1 Viewer)

brianhatch

brianhatch

Footballguy
I've got to share my story. I found a team on here two years ago, same boards, seemed legit, said he was family man, $100 entry dynasty. Well, long-story short, he screwed 16 owners that by the time they put deposits down, were in $150-200 each. Later turned out he was a college student dropout who was short on money and did it all as a scam.

For the LOVE OF GOD, please don't fall in this trap. I know that for every scammer, there are 5+ legitimate commissioners. But these boards attract scamers and con artists. You know, I'm not really as pissed about the $200, or the blow to my ego to know forever more that I was a victim of a con artist, but rather than 20-30 hours I spent drafting, trading, and really getting into my team.

If you have known a commissioner for years, sure, trust him with your money. But we need to all stand up here and demand that with new leagues being formed, all money is held by Leaguesafe, in an FDIC insured bank, and no money paid out until the majority of owners ratifiy it.

Yeah, they take a 3% fee when depositing your money, but Paypal charges fees too, and isn't that a tiny price to pay for security???

I'd like to hear from others on this board... were you ever scammed by a commish taking the money and running? Let's start a dialogue and help educate people on the real risks they take.

I know that I switched all the leagues I run over to Leaguesafe, without any issue from players or anyone, two years ago. I'd never go back, both on principle and how easy it is to use.

The terrible thing is, not using a third-party trust service like Leaguesafe hurts all the rest of us... because sometimes, these scammed new owners, fresh off of only playing with their college buddies in a local draft, never play with strangers again. That hurts everyone.

Comment added 4/1/2010, well after my original post - still great info below in this thread, including by the founder of Leaguesafe himself, and Joe Bryant, the founder of Footballguys, vouching for them, but please do yourself a favor and read this linked thread on this board, for a real life example of a "trusted commissioner" who "ran many leagues for many years" before spending the money of his leagues. He's doing the right thing and trying to pay people off, slowly, but I feel it's close to the POSTER CHILD example of why no one should ever... ever join a league with someone you don't know PERSONALLY face to face for years, and give them your money. Link: http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...;#entry11678569

 
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brianhatch said:
I've got to share my story. I found a team on here two years ago, same boards, seemed legit, said he was family man, $100 entry dynasty. Well, long-story short, he screwed 16 owners that by the time they put deposits down, were in $150-200 each. Later turned out he was a college student dropout who was short on money and did it all as a scam.For the LOVE OF GOD, please don't fall in this trap. I know that for every scammer, there are 5+ legitimate commissioners. But these boards attract scamers and con artists. You know, I'm not really as pissed about the $200, or the blow to my ego to know forever more that I was a victim of a con artist, but rather than 20-30 hours I spent drafting, trading, and really getting into my team. If you have known a commissioner for years, sure, trust him with your money. But we need to all stand up here and demand that with new leagues being formed, all money is held by Leaguesafe, in an FDIC insured bank, and no money paid out until the majority of owners ratifiy it. Yeah, they take a 3% fee when depositing your money, but Paypal charges fees too, and isn't that a tiny price to pay for security???I'd like to hear from others on this board... were you ever scammed by a commish taking the money and running? Let's start a dialogue and help educate people on the real risks they take.I know that I switched all the leagues I run over to Leaguesafe, without any issue from players or anyone, two years ago. I'd never go back, both on principle and how easy it is to use.The terrible thing is, not using a third-party trust service like Leaguesafe hurts all the rest of us... because sometimes, these scammed new owners, fresh off of only playing with their college buddies in a local draft, never play with strangers again. That hurts everyone.
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You've made a good point thru your experience.I'm using leaguesafe for my league.
 
The problem with Leaguesafe is that payouts are made with a prepaid Visa card. I discovered this after not being allowed to register in one league because they refused to accept a P.O. Box as a mailing address.

Why is this a problem? While Leaguesafe itself does not report any information to the IRS, the government certainly gets a list from Visa of who they are paying FF winnings to. If I had any FF winnings, I would not care to pay taxes on them, or in the alternative hear from the government if I didn't. Personally, that is something I would rather not deal with.

 
squistion said:
The problem with Leaguesafe is that payouts are made with a prepaid Visa card. I discovered this after not being allowed to register in one league because they refused to accept a P.O. Box as a mailing address.Why is this a problem? While Leaguesafe itself does not report any information to the IRS, the government certainly gets a list from Visa of who they are paying FF winnings to. If I had any FF winnings, I would not care to pay taxes on them, or in the alternative hear from the government if I didn't. Personally, that is something I would rather not deal with.
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I did a little looking into it and read where leaguesafe is also easily hacked and has been previously. Security risks maybe...
 
Try fantasysportsvault.com .

They've done an excellent job with their payouts for my league.

ALso the guy that runs it is very personable and prompt as well.

Check it out!

 
The IRS isn't notified by Leaguesafe or anyone else except for the big for profit FF houses. And unless you are playing in $1000 to $5000 entry sites, no one is going to care.

Also, we have half international people in our leagues... from all over the world. They get checks in the mail, and were able to deposit them. There are a number of options for Leaguesafe to get you paid out.

Not to mention that you can just keep your money there, and use it the next year, and have no cost whatsoever.

I haven't heard of that other source... but regardless, surely it makes sense to use some such third party tool.

None of the dozens of players, in any years, had any problem with Leaguesafe. Keep your password unique, and you aren't going to have a problem.

 
I think leaguesafe can be good for certain reasons, but I can tell you I trust some of the commishes I play with more than a site I have never spoken to a person at ever. I remember a couple sites that were WELL RESPECTED at the time rip off a major number of people. I am not saying Leaguesafe will be next, I am just saying it has it purpose.

I think its up to personal preferences......Brianhatch you kinda make it seem like you think anyone who sends money to anyone that is not leaguesafe is making a tard move. Thats a pretty strong impression.

If you use leaguesafe great......if its working for you nobody minds.

 
Coin Flip said:
I think leaguesafe can be good for certain reasons, but I can tell you I trust some of the commishes I play with more than a site I have never spoken to a person at ever. I remember a couple sites that were WELL RESPECTED at the time rip off a major number of people. I am not saying Leaguesafe will be next, I am just saying it has it purpose.I think its up to personal preferences......Brianhatch you kinda make it seem like you think anyone who sends money to anyone that is not leaguesafe is making a tard move. Thats a pretty strong impression. If you use leaguesafe great......if its working for you nobody minds.
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The problem is, there are a lot of people out there that steal money. And you don't know that until maybe even a year into a league. I've played with probably 10 different commissioners and only been ripped off once. Does that mean that I shouldn't insist on using Leaguesafe?What happens if a commissioner dies? I doubt you'll ever see that money back, especially if he used a made for football email only that his wife didn't know the password to.I guess the point of this thread is to let people know there are a LOT of commissioners starting these leagues that make them for the sole purpose of collecting fees and disappearing. What site held people's money before, then went out of business? I'm curious. My leagues have many thousands of dollars being held by Leaguesafe, and I trust them more than anyone but myself.Everyone has the right to do what they want with their money... that's why there are certain big house-odds in Vegas that people still bet. You ever walk up to a craps table and see people betting the big 6 and big 8 over and over? Just becauase they walk away with some winnings after an hour doesn't mean they made smart bets. But I really just want to get word of this problem in fantasy football... and onto the same kinds of boards that these predators prowl... and the lambs go looking.At the end of the day, once everyone is informed... we're all adults here, and they can do what they want with their money.- Brian
 
dehaven123 said:
squistion said:
The problem with Leaguesafe is that payouts are made with a prepaid Visa card. I discovered this after not being allowed to register in one league because they refused to accept a P.O. Box as a mailing address.

Why is this a problem? While Leaguesafe itself does not report any information to the IRS, the government certainly gets a list from Visa of who they are paying FF winnings to. If I had any FF winnings, I would not care to pay taxes on them, or in the alternative hear from the government if I didn't. Personally, that is something I would rather not deal with.
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I did a little looking into it and read where leaguesafe is also easily hacked and has been previously. Security risks maybe...
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Links to a comment like that in bold are more than necessary.I'm not a cheerleader for leaguesafe by any means but in all my dealings with them to date, they have been above reproach. We used leaguesafe for 3 leagues where I was the commish and have not heard any complaints regarding their service/deposits/withdrawals of funds. There are more options for payouts than prepaid Visa card. As an international customer, my only option was a check and this year I received my payout even faster than the timeframe they specified on their website (12-14 days)

I understand why many fantasy footballers would not feel the need for a service like leaguesafe.com or fantasysportsvault.com. Many people play in leagues where they know their commish/other players personally or have played together in a league for a number of years. In these situations it would feel unnecessary and more hoops to jump through.

I can also see where Brian is coming from as well and that many people go looking for new leagues on the internet, using message boards like FBG and the like to find new leagues. It's in this scenario that I would have to agree that using a service like leaguesafe would be a must.

 
Using League Safe or Fantasy Sports Vault.com saves commissioners time in figuring out money, running to the bank to cash or deposit checks, and hassle owners for money.

For leagues that use ONLINE owners only that are not in person drafts,

FantasySportsVault.com is the way to go for me.

I have also heard nothing but good things about LeagueSafe too.

 
hfs09 said:
Using League Safe or Fantasy Sports Vault.com saves commissioners time in figuring out money, running to the bank to cash or deposit checks, and hassle owners for money. For leagues that use ONLINE owners only that are not in person drafts, FantasySportsVault.com is the way to go for me.I have also heard nothing but good things about LeagueSafe too.
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FantasySportsVault.com does seem to have the same business model. And they don't even charge 3% if you mail them checks, which Leaguesafe doesn't allow. How many leagues out there have been using them, and for how many years?
 
brianhatch said:
hfs09 said:
Using League Safe or Fantasy Sports Vault.com saves commissioners time in figuring out money, running to the bank to cash or deposit checks, and hassle owners for money. For leagues that use ONLINE owners only that are not in person drafts, FantasySportsVault.com is the way to go for me.I have also heard nothing but good things about LeagueSafe too.
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FantasySportsVault.com does seem to have the same business model. And they don't even charge 3% if you mail them checks, which Leaguesafe doesn't allow. How many leagues out there have been using them, and for how many years?
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:thumbdown:
 
THis is my 2nd year using SportsVault and I have done about 15 leagues on there....Everyone seems to love doing it there.

 
hfs09 said:
THis is my 2nd year using SportsVault and I have done about 15 leagues on there....Everyone seems to love doing it there.
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Looks cheaper then Leaguesafe...I can't tell from the FSV website if there's a fee when withdrawing your winnings.Any insight on this?
 
brianhatch said:
The IRS isn't notified by Leaguesafe or anyone else except for the big for profit FF houses. And unless you are playing in $1000 to $5000 entry sites, no one is going to care.

Also, we have half international people in our leagues... from all over the world. They get checks in the mail, and were able to deposit them. There are a number of options for Leaguesafe to get you paid out.

Not to mention that you can just keep your money there, and use it the next year, and have no cost whatsoever.

I haven't heard of that other source... but regardless, surely it makes sense to use some such third party tool.

None of the dozens of players, in any years, had any problem with Leaguesafe. Keep your password unique, and you aren't going to have a problem.
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Perhaps, but they all involve one using a street address to receive payment (at least in the USA). They refuse to accept a PO Box and the reason they gave to my commish was that they use a prepaid Visa card for payments and Visa demands that a street address be used, a PO Box is not acceptable. And that doesn't alter the fact thay no matter how the winnings are paid, that information will still be available to the IRS. If you read my previous post I did note that leaguesafe does not notify the IRS. However, there is no reason to believe Visa would not provide that information if asked (and why not, they just a third party to the transaction who pays out the gambling winnings).

Maybe you are right and nobody cares about winnings under a $1000, but that is something I don't want to have to deal with and for that reason I will avoid leaguesafe.

 
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brianhatch said:
The problem is, there are a lot of people out there that steal money. And you don't know that until maybe even a year into a league. I've played with probably 10 different commissioners and only been ripped off once. Does that mean that I shouldn't insist on using Leaguesafe?What happens if a commissioner dies? I doubt you'll ever see that money back, especially if he used a made for football email only that his wife didn't know the password to.I guess the point of this thread is to let people know there are a LOT of commissioners starting these leagues that make them for the sole purpose of collecting fees and disappearing. What site held people's money before, then went out of business? I'm curious. My leagues have many thousands of dollars being held by Leaguesafe, and I trust them more than anyone but myself.Everyone has the right to do what they want with their money... that's why there are certain big house-odds in Vegas that people still bet. You ever walk up to a craps table and see people betting the big 6 and big 8 over and over? Just becauase they walk away with some winnings after an hour doesn't mean they made smart bets. But I really just want to get word of this problem in fantasy football... and onto the same kinds of boards that these predators prowl... and the lambs go looking.At the end of the day, once everyone is informed... we're all adults here, and they can do what they want with their money.- Brian
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I've been playing FF for over 15 years now, with many of those years and many of those leagues been online leagues. I have only seen 1 instance in all of that time of a commish not pay out. I am curious where all of these rip offs you speak of are.
 
brianhatch said:
I've got to share my story. I found a team on here two years ago, same boards, seemed legit, said he was family man, $100 entry dynasty. Well, long-story short, he screwed 16 owners that by the time they put deposits down, were in $150-200 each. Later turned out he was a college student dropout who was short on money and did it all as a scam.For the LOVE OF GOD, please don't fall in this trap. I know that for every scammer, there are 5+ legitimate commissioners. But these boards attract scamers and con artists. You know, I'm not really as pissed about the $200, or the blow to my ego to know forever more that I was a victim of a con artist, but rather than 20-30 hours I spent drafting, trading, and really getting into my team. If you have known a commissioner for years, sure, trust him with your money. But we need to all stand up here and demand that with new leagues being formed, all money is held by Leaguesafe, in an FDIC insured bank, and no money paid out until the majority of owners ratifiy it. Yeah, they take a 3% fee when depositing your money, but Paypal charges fees too, and isn't that a tiny price to pay for security???I'd like to hear from others on this board... were you ever scammed by a commish taking the money and running? Let's start a dialogue and help educate people on the real risks they take.I know that I switched all the leagues I run over to Leaguesafe, without any issue from players or anyone, two years ago. I'd never go back, both on principle and how easy it is to use.The terrible thing is, not using a third-party trust service like Leaguesafe hurts all the rest of us... because sometimes, these scammed new owners, fresh off of only playing with their college buddies in a local draft, never play with strangers again. That hurts everyone.
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I hope whoever ripped you off this year wasn't the same ##### who went by the name Brian Smith, who ripped off a league I joined 2 seasons ago...Anyway, best suggestion is to never join a league where the commish doesn't give you his name, home address, and multiple references. If you can't confirm for sure where he lives and works, then you don't join the league. That's what I'll be doing for the rest of my FF playing days.
 
Turfwar.com still owes me $1000

LeagueSafe’s founder and President, Paul Charchian was also on Turfwar's website and did a weekly video for them...maybe that is where he got the idea for leaguesafe :wub:

 
grapeape said:
I hope whoever ripped you off this year wasn't the same ##### who went by the name Brian Smith, who ripped off a league I joined 2 seasons ago...Anyway, best suggestion is to never join a league where the commish doesn't give you his name, home address, and multiple references. If you can't confirm for sure where he lives and works, then you don't join the league. That's what I'll be doing for the rest of my FF playing days.
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BrianHatch and I were both in a league 2 years ago run by "Brian Smith" and learned the hard way........it was this experience in particular that led both of us creating Paragon Fantasy Football.
 
kurtrudder said:
grapeape said:
I hope whoever ripped you off this year wasn't the same ##### who went by the name Brian Smith, who ripped off a league I joined 2 seasons ago...Anyway, best suggestion is to never join a league where the commish doesn't give you his name, home address, and multiple references. If you can't confirm for sure where he lives and works, then you don't join the league. That's what I'll be doing for the rest of my FF playing days.
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BrianHatch and I were both in a league 2 years ago run by "Brian Smith" and learned the hard way........it was this experience in particular that led both of us creating Paragon Fantasy Football.
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I've personally seen two instances of fraud, and have played in about 25 league/years. Bad luck? Perhaps. I also used one of the "big" for-profit fantasy sites, and the commish wouldn't admit he had money issues and for three years has paid me an average of 3 months late. I would list the name, but the guy still owes me $400, and I want to get paid. All of these issues go away with Leaguesafe, where you know that the money is there, not commingled with the commissioner's personal funds, and all it takes is a vote to disperse.I'm not accusing anyone of anything here, but it's interesting how many of the people responding negatively to this post, are actively soliciting player/funds for their league? Obviously, you trust yourself, just as I would trust myself if I was holding the cash, but that's not the point. It's kind of like life insurance. "It's not for you, but for the other people you're responsible for."
 
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brianhatch said:
I'm not accusing anyone of anything here, but it's interesting how many of the people responding negatively to this post, are actively soliciting player/funds for their league?
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Not sure what that was meant to imply, but I am as legit as they come. Although I am not holding funds for our new league, I will let my reputation (and my league treasurer) speak for itself. Sucks you had a bad experience, but that doesn't mean you should feel the need to force feed Leaguesafe down everyone elses throat.
 
ziachild07 said:
brianhatch said:
I'm not accusing anyone of anything here, but it's interesting how many of the people responding negatively to this post, are actively soliciting player/funds for their league?
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Not sure what that was meant to imply, but I am as legit as they come. Although I am not holding funds for our new league, I will let my reputation (and my league treasurer) speak for itself. Sucks you had a bad experience, but that doesn't mean you should feel the need to force feed Leaguesafe down everyone elses throat.
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I am not implying anything, other than the fact that EVERY commissioner says the same thing. Been around a long time, run lots of leagues, completely trustworthy, I'm legit, "I'd never be able to live with myself if I failed to pay somebody something I owed.." etc. Hell, I'd say the same thing if I was holding the funds for my league. And I know I'm legit. But in your new league, your treasurer is going to hold $1600 right? 32 x $50. How will any of the random people know you're absolutely legit? Another board member posting saying they know you? A few email addresses you give out as references? We know how hard it is to set up random gmail accounts.Again, this has NOTHING to do with you. But why should some stranger who doesn't know you even risk putting $1600 in your pocket, when there are a couple safe, reasonable alternatives out there to hold the money, so that, for example, if your treasurer gets hit by a bus, and his wife (or executor) doesn't feel the need to reimburse the league the money, your league isn't screwed. I'm sure you'll say that if the treasurer ran off with the money, you'd pay it back yourself, which is what any honorable commissioner would do. But that wouldn't help if there was a real con going on.By the way, this whole thread is PERFECT. It shows the arguments pro and con using third-party sites. And hopefully, regardless of what people decide to do when paypaling some stranger or mailing a check to some address, they are now going to be better informed.
 
brianhatch said:
I am not implying anything, other than the fact that EVERY commissioner says the same thing. Been around a long time, run lots of leagues, completely trustworthy, I'm legit, "I'd never be able to live with myself if I failed to pay somebody something I owed.." etc. Hell, I'd say the same thing if I was holding the funds for my league. And I know I'm legit. But in your new league, your treasurer is going to hold $1600 right? 32 x $50. How will any of the random people know you're absolutely legit? Another board member posting saying they know you? A few email addresses you give out as references? We know how hard it is to set up random gmail accounts.Again, this has NOTHING to do with you. But why should some stranger who doesn't know you even risk putting $1600 in your pocket, when there are a couple safe, reasonable alternatives out there to hold the money, so that, for example, if your treasurer gets hit by a bus, and his wife (or executor) doesn't feel the need to reimburse the league the money, your league isn't screwed. I'm sure you'll say that if the treasurer ran off with the money, you'd pay it back yourself, which is what any honorable commissioner would do. But that wouldn't help if there was a real con going on.By the way, this whole thread is PERFECT. It shows the arguments pro and con using third-party sites. And hopefully, regardless of what people decide to do when paypaling some stranger or mailing a check to some address, they are now going to be better informed.
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I could be wrong (that happens a lot according to my wife) but most people I know don't play with complete strangers. I probably wouldn't. For example, the league I am putting together is made up of about 22-23 members of another fantasy football forum who have known me or shared leagues with me for the past 4-5 years. The other 2 current members are active members of this forum. And the last 7-8 spots will be filled by non-homer alternates from that same forum, if we can not fill them with homers. Now, for the 2 that don't know me....do they have to trust me or our league treasurer? Certainly not, but that is their personal choice. Like I said, I will let me reputation and history speak for itself. If my treasurer gets hit by a bus I am sure myself or one of the other 20 something members that know him can contact his family to get the league funds returned. But then again I am sure that the people in that forum would be more concerned about his family and what we could do to help them. I guess my whole point is a lot of forum websites like FBG and some others out there take something like fantasy football and make it where complete strangers can become friends that know more about each other than a member name and number. These people over time develop friendships and believe it or not............trust. If you prefer the "safety" of sites like Leaguesafe and others out there like that, then that is what works best for you. But if others want to have someone they trust keep the league funds, then that too is their choice.
 
Just moved by 10 or so leagues I run over to LeagueSafe this year. A lot easier for people to pay and the fees are minor. Have set up echeck only since that is the free method and credit card people can still send PayPal so the whole league isn't charged the 3% fee.

As for withdrawls, VISA cards are free and getting your winnings by check is $1.00 and echeck transfer $5 I think so fee is nominal if getting a paper check or VISA card.

 
Ziachild,

I understand your situation where all the players know you. And you know your treasurer. That's a bit different than most of these leauges, where people don't clearly know the commissioner through years of experience or personally meeting him.

It's more those leagues where people don't personally know the commish or have years of experience playing with him in other leagues, that I think Leaguesafe.com is for. And there are many, many advertising right now on the boards.

For the leagues I run, which are all $150+ entry leagues, I don't doubt that many of the players I've known for years would trust me with their money. But you know what... I'm not going to ask them to even take that chance. I'll park our funds in Leaguesafe, and hopefully know that gives the confidence to new players to my leagues that they can join and not only invest their $150-250 per year, but also the dozens of hours of their time, knowing that both the league AND money will be around in future years.

- Brian

 
I feel the best way is if you do online leagues with people you haven't or won't meet, I would say Leaguesafe or FantasySportsVault.com is the way to go to enhance the legitimate quality of online leagues.

But I also do a couple local in person leagues...In this case I'll appoint a treasurer, which is either myself or another league member, you know, someone you could trust to date your sister or daughter.

 
ziachild07 said:
brianhatch said:
The problem is, there are a lot of people out there that steal money. And you don't know that until maybe even a year into a league. I've played with probably 10 different commissioners and only been ripped off once. Does that mean that I shouldn't insist on using Leaguesafe?What happens if a commissioner dies? I doubt you'll ever see that money back, especially if he used a made for football email only that his wife didn't know the password to.I guess the point of this thread is to let people know there are a LOT of commissioners starting these leagues that make them for the sole purpose of collecting fees and disappearing. What site held people's money before, then went out of business? I'm curious. My leagues have many thousands of dollars being held by Leaguesafe, and I trust them more than anyone but myself.Everyone has the right to do what they want with their money... that's why there are certain big house-odds in Vegas that people still bet. You ever walk up to a craps table and see people betting the big 6 and big 8 over and over? Just becauase they walk away with some winnings after an hour doesn't mean they made smart bets. But I really just want to get word of this problem in fantasy football... and onto the same kinds of boards that these predators prowl... and the lambs go looking.At the end of the day, once everyone is informed... we're all adults here, and they can do what they want with their money.- Brian
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I've been playing FF for over 15 years now, with many of those years and many of those leagues been online leagues. I have only seen 1 instance in all of that time of a commish not pay out. I am curious where all of these rip offs you speak of are.
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I agree with this. I've been commishing leagues since 1992 and have never rippied anyone off. Period. And to say that there are a "LOT" of commissioners ripping people off is really an insult to all the great commsih's out there. Sure, there may be a few bad seeds, but if there was we'd be seeing a lot of posts on these boards about people getting ripped off and I just don't see it.I guess I keep having visions of AFFL and Fantasy Jungle jumping through my mind. They were both pretty highly thought of at one time as well. I guess I trust myself a hell of a lot more than I trust a 3rd party to hold the cash. Been doing it since 1992 and no complaints yet.
 
I agree with the Fantasy Jungle and AFFL reminders also. The bigger problem I have is giving my bank acct info to another source online. I use paypal as most guys do and Leaguesafe doesnt allow pymts for leagues to be paid via paypal. That is fine, but I am more concerned with SECURITY BREECHES.....leaguesafe may not intend for a breech to occur, but noone does.

I am hopeful Leaguesafe is solid.....but I am not wanting my bank acct info in their hands just yet.

 
Gunny said:
ziachild07 said:
brianhatch said:
The problem is, there are a lot of people out there that steal money. And you don't know that until maybe even a year into a league. I've played with probably 10 different commissioners and only been ripped off once. Does that mean that I shouldn't insist on using Leaguesafe?What happens if a commissioner dies? I doubt you'll ever see that money back, especially if he used a made for football email only that his wife didn't know the password to.I guess the point of this thread is to let people know there are a LOT of commissioners starting these leagues that make them for the sole purpose of collecting fees and disappearing. What site held people's money before, then went out of business? I'm curious. My leagues have many thousands of dollars being held by Leaguesafe, and I trust them more than anyone but myself.Everyone has the right to do what they want with their money... that's why there are certain big house-odds in Vegas that people still bet. You ever walk up to a craps table and see people betting the big 6 and big 8 over and over? Just becauase they walk away with some winnings after an hour doesn't mean they made smart bets. But I really just want to get word of this problem in fantasy football... and onto the same kinds of boards that these predators prowl... and the lambs go looking.At the end of the day, once everyone is informed... we're all adults here, and they can do what they want with their money.- Brian
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I've been playing FF for over 15 years now, with many of those years and many of those leagues been online leagues. I have only seen 1 instance in all of that time of a commish not pay out. I am curious where all of these rip offs you speak of are.
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I agree with this. I've been commishing leagues since 1992 and have never rippied anyone off. Period. And to say that there are a "LOT" of commissioners ripping people off is really an insult to all the great commsih's out there. Sure, there may be a few bad seeds, but if there was we'd be seeing a lot of posts on these boards about people getting ripped off and I just don't see it.I guess I keep having visions of AFFL and Fantasy Jungle jumping through my mind. They were both pretty highly thought of at one time as well. I guess I trust myself a hell of a lot more than I trust a 3rd party to hold the cash. Been doing it since 1992 and no complaints yet.
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We ALL trust ourselves more than a third-party site like Leaguesafe. The question is, do you trust the guy who was a leaguemate in an online game for a couple years and you have 3-4 trade conversations with, but you don't know with 100% certainty his real name, employment, identy information, or address, MORE than leaguesafe.com. That is the question here. All of us would rather keep the cash ourselves... but there are 11-31 other teams out there, depending on leaguesfe, that have to make that decision to. I mean, we're in the middle of the "great recession" here. Surely there are some desperate people out there falling behind on mortgages, etc. Faced with putting their kids on the street or "indefinitely borrowing" the leagues money, and I bet there are a lot of poeople that would put their casual friends and acquaintances second.Also, I really doubt anyone knows the full extent of it. I hadn't written about seeing TWO scammed leagues on these boards before now. The whole reason most con artists get away with things is that they rely upon people being too shamed to do much about it. It's not like they can get their money back.This is a much bigger problem than what the # of posts would indicate. How much bigger, well, you're right, none of us can possibly know. I agree with you that there are nowhere near 1000's of con artists preying out there. Probably not even hundreds. And many, many don't even bother with these boards. They go to yahoo boards and set up free leagues and say mail $50 to this address, and we'll all split at the end. None of us are likely to fall for that, I'm sure.All we can do is inform, educate, and hope for the best.Lastly, a comment on bank info. I'd never give my bank info out either. I only reluctantly let Paypal do it recently. And I really didn't like doing that. However, credit cards are protected by law against fraud and unauthorized use. I gladly use credit cards on all sorts of online purchases, and leaguesafe is no different. It's probably MORE reputable than 80% of the places I've used a credit card. It's the recommended method I would use for Leaguesafe. Although paypal and that other third-party site is very tempting as there are a lot ofpeople that like Paypal.
 
I understand your points, but in the end, I still just don't trust Leaguesafe enough yet. Like I mentioned already, those other two football sites had 100's of customers, who up until the time they were screwed out of their money would have swore by those sites and the service they provided.

I guess one thing that bothers me is this. I currently run 12 leagues. Let's say for example, I do use leaguesafe, and low and behold something happens to them and the money is gone. First off, that's a lot of cash. Next, who is responsible for everyone's entry fees? First answer is Leaguesafe. But, knowing how difficult it would be to try and recoup lossed from an online service who had "flown the coup", how long is it going to take until some prople start trying to come after the commish to return their cash? When one hundred or so different people are involved, I guarantee you some would do that. Now, I'm probably just being paranoid, but I would feel absolutely terrible if that scenario were to happen.

Will it cost me some future members in my leagues? I'm sure it probably will. But will it prevent me from being able to fill my leagues? I doubt it. I'm not saying I'll never use leaguesafe in the future, just that for right now, I'm taking the wait and see approach.

 
Gunny said:
I understand your points, but in the end, I still just don't trust Leaguesafe enough yet. Like I mentioned already, those other two football sites had 100's of customers, who up until the time they were screwed out of their money would have swore by those sites and the service they provided.I guess one thing that bothers me is this. I currently run 12 leagues. Let's say for example, I do use leaguesafe, and low and behold something happens to them and the money is gone. First off, that's a lot of cash. Next, who is responsible for everyone's entry fees? First answer is Leaguesafe. But, knowing how difficult it would be to try and recoup lossed from an online service who had "flown the coup", how long is it going to take until some prople start trying to come after the commish to return their cash? When one hundred or so different people are involved, I guarantee you some would do that. Now, I'm probably just being paranoid, but I would feel absolutely terrible if that scenario were to happen. Will it cost me some future members in my leagues? I'm sure it probably will. But will it prevent me from being able to fill my leagues? I doubt it. I'm not saying I'll never use leaguesafe in the future, just that for right now, I'm taking the wait and see approach.
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I also think that the $$$ value of the league plays into it. $20-50 leagues, for 12 to 16 team leagues, aren't likely to attract a con artist. Hell, $6 of that amount goes to Leaguesafe.I think that most of the worry is when people start asking for $70-250 per year. Then, something like leaguesafe.com becomes more important.
 
I also think it's important to realize how easy it is for commissioners to administer. It sends invites out, invoices out, receipt for payment out, and daily reminders to pay until that person does pay. How much is that piece of mind worth to the commissioner?

 
I am strictly an owner of teams (many teams) and do not commish any leagues. I enter into leagues usually in the $100-$250 range (and will be playing in one this year at over $250).

I have had a good experience with leaguesafe thus far and do not object when leaguemates choose to use it. I would prefer actually in some leagues to use leaguesafe if given the choice. In a number of others though, I would prefer the commish to hold the funds than a company, because really, how much do we know about leaguesafe or any other escrow type company?

My questions are: Why is it that we think money with a company is safe? Because they say it is? Do we know for a fact that the money is in a separate account and can that be verified? If it is in a separate account, do we know that the company cannot tap into that account, and do we have assurance that if the company goes under (which would not be unusual) that the accounts would be considered our accounts and not used to pay off other creditors?

These are real questions of mine (i.e., not rhetorical) and if anyone has the answers (to one or more of them), I would certainly appreciate it. At the end of the day, if I am to continue to play fantasy football for money (which I plan to do), I am going to have to live with and factor in the risk that the company or individual will not be able to pay.

 
For those who don’t know me, my name is Paul Charchian, owner of LeagueSafe. I’ve become aware of this thread, and definitely want to chime in.

First off, many thanks to everyone for their honest evaluation of LeagueSafe. And, thanks to Brian for being an advocate for our site. We’ve always striving to improve our service, and the commentary here is a great opportunity to learn more about how we are perceived.

Before I get into the meat of the discussion, I want to make it clear that dehaven123’s research suggesting that LeagueSafe has been hacked is 100% inaccurate. We have had no security breaches of any kind. I have no idea where his information came from, but it’s flat out wrong.

I’ve met the owner of Fantasy Sports Vault, Ty, and he seems like a great guy. I haven’t used his product, but I’ve never heard a single negative word about it. My understanding is that his site allows deposits by paper check at no cost, just like LeagueSafe, except we do it electronically. I earnestly hope FSV thrives.

Squistion raises the topic of IRS involvement. We don’t report your league’s payout distribution to the IRS, because we aren’t the ones awarding the funds--the money is always yours, never ours. We aren’t running a contest, game, or sweepstakes. So, just like in any other league, the burden of reporting to the IRS is on winners. Also, I have no reason to believe that Visa is reporting anything involving LeagueSafe to the IRS.

WFCChamp, TurfWar still owes me $5,000. Bad deal.

Coinflip, we don’t store ANY financial data. We don’t store your credit card information, your bank account information or anything else of a financial nature. And again, we’ve never had a security issue.

Ernol, you’ve raised many good questions about the security of our business. Here are some answers.

First, owner deposits are never intermingled with our operating account. Our partner banks, US Bank and Bancorp Bank, have a detailed understanding of our business. Your funds never leave a guaranteed environment, either by FDIC while in bank accounts, or in guaranteed return vehicles.

LeagueSafe leagues are set up with a “Payout Authorization Method” (PAM) mechanism that allows league members the right to vote on the commissioner’s disbursement of end-of-season winnings. If league members don’t know or don’t trust the commissioner, this option allows them to have a say in how he’s allocating the league’s funds. Without such a control in place, there’d be no way of preventing a dishonest commissioner from just allocating everyone’s money to himself. In leagues with a PAM that requires league approval, funds are not released from the league into individual owner accounts until enough league members vote to approve the commissioner’s allocation.

For those that believe I’ve gotten in this business so I can “fly the coup”, please take a moment to learn about me. I co-founded Fanball in 1993. Sold it in 2005, and stayed there until 2007, when I left to start LeagueSafe. I only know five people who have been in the industry as long as myself. I’m the president of the Fantasy Sports Trade Association, with 120 member companies, including ESPN, CBS Sports, NBC Sports, Fox Sports, Yahoo, etc… I host of the country’s longest-running fantasy football radio show, which airs live on KFAN 1130 AM in Minneapolis/St. Paul on Saturday mornings during the football season. I appear on the FOX television affiliate KSTP in Minneapolis frequently, covering fantasy football and the Vikings. In conjunction with FOX, appears in weekly video spots that can be seen on www.fantasyvictory.com. I frequently appear on ESPN and ESPN News. If I rip off LeagueSafe customers, I’ve got a lot to lose. I’m in it for the long haul, and I’m very committed to the success of the company.

And, relevant to this particular forum, I’ve known Joe and David for more than a decade. I talked with David at an FSTA conference last month.

Maybe most importantly, I hope people will Google us. If we weren’t meeting our obligations to our customers, the internet would be littered with angry chatter.

Phew…sorry for the long read!

I hope that answers some questions.

 
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I won $250 in a league that used Leaguesafe and was paid on a Visa card within days. My wife wanted me to pay the $5 to get the FF Champ Visa but I refused lol .

 
Paul,

Thanks very much for responding. I'm glad you were able to address some of these questions on this board.

It's frankly just shocking to me that virtually all fantasy players aren't insisting on using your service or some other similar type of "vault."

I'll continue to use Leaguesafe for all of the Paragon Fantasy leagues, and hope to keep this thread alive so that as the new season rolls around, more owners are aware of the fact that they should be standing up and not mailing off checks or paypal payments to strangers.

Thanks,

Brian

 
Charch

Any chance you will accept paypal as a form of pymt one day and if not why?

I am not saying Leaguesafe is a bad company I am just saying there is some risk regardless. There is risk if you send me money and I am your commish also. I understand that. You have not failed anyone nor have I......so its possible both methods work.

 
I'm with you CF. I suppose leaguesafe is fine for those that want to give their money to a 3rd party to hold on to. I'd like to think the the pro-leaguesafe crowd and us honest commssioners can learn to co-exist without getting into a big war of words.

 
Gunny said:
I'm with you CF. I suppose leaguesafe is fine for those that want to give their money to a 3rd party to hold on to. I'd like to think the the pro-leaguesafe crowd and us honest commssioners can learn to co-exist without getting into a big war of words.
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Oh, certainly there's no war of words here. People can do whatever they choose.The three main areas that LeagueSafe helps are A) when people don't know the commissioner, B) the commissioner doesn't want the hassle of dealing with funds, and/or C) a history of slow-payers (either commissioner or owners). If those things aren't issues, LeagueSafe's value proposition is much lower. I get that. We're not trying to convert every single league. Thanks again, everyone!
 
When will you offer paypal as a form of payment and if you do not plan to why?

I already gave my personal bank acct info to them. I am not real keen on sending my personal bank info or any personal info via the internet whenever it can be avoided. I bit the bullet and work with paypal.....I have zero complaints about them so far.

I was just wondering why you have not used them thus far.

 
Charch said:
For those who don’t know me, my name is Paul Charchian, owner of LeagueSafe. I’ve become aware of this thread, and definitely want to chime in. I hope that answers some questions.
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I don't think anyone would/should question Charch's credability. Not too many names I can think of that have been in the industry and stayed as long as he has. My only thing is I don't think every league out there should be told what to do with their league funds. If Leaguesafe works better for your league, that's awesome, but if a good number of people are having success with private commissioners, then that is their option. I guess it has a lot to do with the title, suggesting that private commissioners can not be trusted. Paul, I too am curious about payments to/from paypal. That is the main question I have seen from people I have talked to about it.
 
Coin Flip said:
When will you offer paypal as a form of payment and if you do not plan to why?I already gave my personal bank acct info to them. I am not real keen on sending my personal bank info or any personal info via the internet whenever it can be avoided. I bit the bullet and work with paypal.....I have zero complaints about them so far.I was just wondering why you have not used them thus far.
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I think what you have to realize is, how does a company like Leaguesafe.com make money?What are the expenses, and what are the revenue streams?If you think about it this way, you can understand why League safe has to operate the way it does. If it started charging a lot of money to hold the money for a league, no one would use it. So they have to keep their structure very lean and the in/out transaction costs to a minimum, or the business model crumbles.It's been proposed: why aren't they bonded/insured? My guess is that it would be very, very expensive to do this, especially in today's business climate, where insuring any sort of risk is going for a large premium. Essentially, ANOTHER third-party would have to ensure against fraud. Although it would be nice, I don't think it's commercially feasible.Second, look at how they collect the money. Any merchant that accepts visa payments has to pay a fee on any charge. Typically, this is a per transaction fee, plus a percentage. I have no idea what that fee is for leaguesafe, nor would I imagine they would share such a proprietary piece of info. But let's say it's between 1.8% and 3%. So, that's why Leaguesafe has to charge 3% for money deposited through visa... it's pretty close to a direct passthrough of cost.Now, I actually have no clue on the echecks. There is a small fee for any business depositing regular paper checks, but the biggest issue is "handling costs" in terms of labor, even with modern optical scanners. I had thought their fees would have to be close to visa fees, which is why they charged 3%.However, Leaguesafe now has the option of allowing "free" e-check only deposits. I'm not sure if that reflects their cost, or is a loss leader to gain market share. Either way, they don't do it for all leagues, just ones that will do e-check only.Since I'd never give out my banking info to any company other than Paypal, and that was done reluctantly and with their "gun to my head" to continue usage, I would never choose this option they have. I believe many league commissioners out there are like me, so perhaps it's just a clever marketing option for people that truly want to pay nothing, so they can say they have a "no cost at all option."Bottom line, I think Leaguesafe charges a very small, very fair amount for their service. Their new fee for late payments could arguably bring in more revenue than most other streams, and I wouldn't be surprised in future years to see more little fees get added on. But heh, that's the way business works. And unless people pay late, the fee is avoidable.By the way, Paypal charges fees to merchants accepting payment, and especially internationally. I would assume it's at least as much as credit cards. There is a lot of back end negotiations, terms, and other details that we as end users don't understand. Personally, I too would LOVE if they accepted Paypal, as many players like to use it. But Paypal may not offer commercially reasonable terms and conditions... and so it may not even be an option.Just some insight.
 
Charch said:
For those who don’t know me, my name is Paul Charchian, owner of LeagueSafe. I’ve become aware of this thread, and definitely want to chime in.

First off, many thanks to everyone for their honest evaluation of LeagueSafe. And, thanks to Brian for being an advocate for our site. We’ve always striving to improve our service, and the commentary here is a great opportunity to learn more about how we are perceived.

Before I get into the meat of the discussion, I want to make it clear that dehaven123’s research suggesting that LeagueSafe has been hacked is 100% inaccurate. We have had no security breaches of any kind. I have no idea where his information came from, but it’s flat out wrong.

I’ve met the owner of Fantasy Sports Vault, Ty, and he seems like a great guy. I haven’t used his product, but I’ve never heard a single negative word about it. My understanding is that his site allows deposits by paper check at no cost, just like LeagueSafe, except we do it electronically. I earnestly hope FSV thrives.

Squistion raises the topic of IRS involvement. We don’t report your league’s payout distribution to the IRS, because we aren’t the ones awarding the funds--the money is always yours, never ours. We aren’t running a contest, game, or sweepstakes. So, just like in any other league, the burden of reporting to the IRS is on winners. Also, I have no reason to believe that Visa is reporting anything involving LeagueSafe to the IRS.

WFCChamp, TurfWar still owes me $5,000. Bad deal.

Coinflip, we don’t store ANY financial data. We don’t store your credit card information, your bank account information or anything else of a financial nature. And again, we’ve never had a security issue.

Ernol, you’ve raised many good questions about the security of our business. Here are some answers.

First, owner deposits are never intermingled with our operating account. Our partner banks, US Bank and Bancorp Bank, have a detailed understanding of our business. Your funds never leave a guaranteed environment, either by FDIC while in bank accounts, or in guaranteed return vehicles.

LeagueSafe leagues are set up with a “Payout Authorization Method” (PAM) mechanism that allows league members the right to vote on the commissioner’s disbursement of end-of-season winnings. If league members don’t know or don’t trust the commissioner, this option allows them to have a say in how he’s allocating the league’s funds. Without such a control in place, there’d be no way of preventing a dishonest commissioner from just allocating everyone’s money to himself. In leagues with a PAM that requires league approval, funds are not released from the league into individual owner accounts until enough league members vote to approve the commissioner’s allocation.

For those that believe I’ve gotten in this business so I can “fly the coup”, please take a moment to learn about me. I co-founded Fanball in 1993. Sold it in 2005, and stayed there until 2007, when I left to start LeagueSafe. I only know five people who have been in the industry as long as myself. I’m the president of the Fantasy Sports Trade Association, with 120 member companies, including ESPN, CBS Sports, NBC Sports, Fox Sports, Yahoo, etc… I host of the country’s longest-running fantasy football radio show, which airs live on KFAN 1130 AM in Minneapolis/St. Paul on Saturday mornings during the football season. I appear on the FOX television affiliate KSTP in Minneapolis frequently, covering fantasy football and the Vikings. In conjunction with FOX, appears in weekly video spots that can be seen on www.fantasyvictory.com. I frequently appear on ESPN and ESPN News. If I rip off LeagueSafe customers, I’ve got a lot to lose. I’m in it for the long haul, and I’m very committed to the success of the company.

And, relevant to this particular forum, I’ve known Joe and David for more than a decade. I talked with David at an FSTA conference last month.

Maybe most importantly, I hope people will Google us. If we weren’t meeting our obligations to our customers, the internet would be littered with angry chatter.

Phew…sorry for the long read!

I hope that answers some questions.
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I guess it was conjecture on my part.It was not my intent to speak as the final authority, just spark some conversation.

I could have stated it a little more clearly in effort to get to my concern across.

My apologies.

I saw nothing that would indicate any specific security concern.

My concerns are more of a personal preference.

I'm not a big fan of cyberspace and all of its unknowns.

too many possibilities.

But what do I know, I dont even do on line purchases.

 
ziachild07 said:
Charch said:
For those who don’t know me, my name is Paul Charchian, owner of LeagueSafe. I’ve become aware of this thread, and definitely want to chime in. I hope that answers some questions.
Click to expand...
I don't think anyone would/should question Charch's credability. Not too many names I can think of that have been in the industry and stayed as long as he has. My only thing is I don't think every league out there should be told what to do with their league funds. If Leaguesafe works better for your league, that's awesome, but if a good number of people are having success with private commissioners, then that is their option. I guess it has a lot to do with the title, suggesting that private commissioners can not be trusted. Paul, I too am curious about payments to/from paypal. That is the main question I have seen from people I have talked to about it.
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:wall: I am not criticizing leaguesafe........just asked about paypal as an option to use for pymt and why they dont accept it now, but are they working on it as a form of pymt.I think its personal preference. I trust my league fees with about 3 different commishes and have 100% faith in them.
 
Charch said:
For those who don’t know me, my name is Paul Charchian, owner of LeagueSafe. I’ve become aware of this thread, and definitely want to chime in.

First off, many thanks to everyone for their honest evaluation of LeagueSafe. And, thanks to Brian for being an advocate for our site. We’ve always striving to improve our service, and the commentary here is a great opportunity to learn more about how we are perceived.

Before I get into the meat of the discussion, I want to make it clear that dehaven123’s research suggesting that LeagueSafe has been hacked is 100% inaccurate. We have had no security breaches of any kind. I have no idea where his information came from, but it’s flat out wrong.

I’ve met the owner of Fantasy Sports Vault, Ty, and he seems like a great guy. I haven’t used his product, but I’ve never heard a single negative word about it. My understanding is that his site allows deposits by paper check at no cost, just like LeagueSafe, except we do it electronically. I earnestly hope FSV thrives.

Squistion raises the topic of IRS involvement. We don’t report your league’s payout distribution to the IRS, because we aren’t the ones awarding the funds--the money is always yours, never ours. We aren’t running a contest, game, or sweepstakes. So, just like in any other league, the burden of reporting to the IRS is on winners. Also, I have no reason to believe that Visa is reporting anything involving LeagueSafe to the IRS.

WFCChamp, TurfWar still owes me $5,000. Bad deal.

Coinflip, we don’t store ANY financial data. We don’t store your credit card information, your bank account information or anything else of a financial nature. And again, we’ve never had a security issue.

Ernol, you’ve raised many good questions about the security of our business. Here are some answers.

First, owner deposits are never intermingled with our operating account. Our partner banks, US Bank and Bancorp Bank, have a detailed understanding of our business. Your funds never leave a guaranteed environment, either by FDIC while in bank accounts, or in guaranteed return vehicles.

LeagueSafe leagues are set up with a “Payout Authorization Method” (PAM) mechanism that allows league members the right to vote on the commissioner’s disbursement of end-of-season winnings. If league members don’t know or don’t trust the commissioner, this option allows them to have a say in how he’s allocating the league’s funds. Without such a control in place, there’d be no way of preventing a dishonest commissioner from just allocating everyone’s money to himself. In leagues with a PAM that requires league approval, funds are not released from the league into individual owner accounts until enough league members vote to approve the commissioner’s allocation.

For those that believe I’ve gotten in this business so I can “fly the coup”, please take a moment to learn about me. I co-founded Fanball in 1993. Sold it in 2005, and stayed there until 2007, when I left to start LeagueSafe. I only know five people who have been in the industry as long as myself. I’m the president of the Fantasy Sports Trade Association, with 120 member companies, including ESPN, CBS Sports, NBC Sports, Fox Sports, Yahoo, etc… I host of the country’s longest-running fantasy football radio show, which airs live on KFAN 1130 AM in Minneapolis/St. Paul on Saturday mornings during the football season. I appear on the FOX television affiliate KSTP in Minneapolis frequently, covering fantasy football and the Vikings. In conjunction with FOX, appears in weekly video spots that can be seen on www.fantasyvictory.com. I frequently appear on ESPN and ESPN News. If I rip off LeagueSafe customers, I’ve got a lot to lose. I’m in it for the long haul, and I’m very committed to the success of the company.

And, relevant to this particular forum, I’ve known Joe and David for more than a decade. I talked with David at an FSTA conference last month.

Maybe most importantly, I hope people will Google us. If we weren’t meeting our obligations to our customers, the internet would be littered with angry chatter.

Phew…sorry for the long read!

I hope that answers some questions.
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Thanks Charch. That does answer a number of my questions and the info you provided does give me further comfort at least in the short term. I still have a few though from my prior post, namely the following:(1) With the funds in separate accounts, are they considered assets on Leaguesafe's books or are they held by Leaguesafe in the name of a league in trust? Where I am going with this is in the event of a bankruptcy, for example, is there legal assurance that the funds would be returned to the individual leagues and not to pay off creditors? I ask because this has been an issue with 1031 exchange companies that have gone under where the return of funds parked with them has been at risk.

(2) Regarding the non-intermingling with the operating account, is this just your intent and practice or is there a legal restriction against this in place? If intent and practice only, could they be changed on the fly if for example, the business were sold?

I am not by my questions advocating for trusting funds with a commish versus leaguesafe as the concerns in 1 and 2 above apply to individual commishes as well. As I mentioned previously, I have had a good experience with Leaguesafe thus far. I am just trying to assess the level of safety of the funds from a legal basis.

 
dehaven123, thanks for taking the time to clarify!

Ernol said:
(1) With the funds in separate accounts, are they considered assets on Leaguesafe's books or are they held by Leaguesafe in the name of a league in trust? Where I am going with this is in the event of a bankruptcy, for example, is there legal assurance that the funds would be returned to the individual leagues and not to pay off creditors? I ask because this has been an issue with 1031 exchange companies that have gone under where the return of funds parked with them has been at risk. (2) Regarding the non-intermingling with the operating account, is this just your intent and practice or is there a legal restriction against this in place? If intent and practice only, could they be changed on the fly if for example, the business were sold? I am not by my questions advocating for trusting funds with a commish versus leaguesafe as the concerns in 1 and 2 above apply to individual commishes as well. As I mentioned previously, I have had a good experience with Leaguesafe thus far. I am just trying to assess the level of safety of the funds from a legal basis.
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Good follow-ups, Ernol. My responses:1. League funds are not considered LeagueSafe assets or revenue. We don't treat that money as our own, and our books reflect as much. It's illegal for us to open bank accounts in other peoples' names, so we can't put the money in the name of a league. Even if we could, we'd be opening thousands of accounts, each with bank fees that nobody wants to pay. When I started LeagueSafe, I looked into this area as well. I'm not a bankruptcy expert, but with our separate operating accounts and customer accounts, I think any reasonable bankruptcy mediator would give customer funds to customers, and operating account funds to business creditors. By the way, we have no 30-day+ debt on the books. Not a cent.2. The separation of our operating accounts and customer accounts is in our Terms of Service. So, if we changed practices without notification, we'd be violating our Terms, and could, potentially, open ourselves up to some kind of action. Same for a new owner. We take this separation very seriously. Is it 100% bulletproof? Probably not, but we think it's reasonably so, and I don't know of any other realistic measures that would could employ to make it any better (I'm open to suggestions!). In the long run, we hope that seasons upon seasons of paid fantasy owners will put the trust issue to rest. PayPal had to start somewhere, right?Some other items that people have mentioned:Pay Pal: We haven't offered PayPal yet primarily because of their fees. We're trying to keep the site as inexpensive as possible. Also, PayPal has a long and frustrating history of confusing fantasy operators as gambling sites, and refusing service. The FSTA is launching a new initiative to educate these companies.E-check: We're eating those fees as a cost of doing business. We want to maintain a free method for deposits. I hope that helps!- CharchPS: This is the best customer-driven discussion I've had about LeagueSafe, and I appreciate everyone's input.
 
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Charch,I've utilized bank trusts, at no extra fee, with a simple executed document between parties and the bank officer specifying how the funds may be utilized. I've done this to hold money in trust for clients that I was not sure would pay, often in the hundreds of thousands range. If it was free and easy for me to set up, it wouldn't be hard fro you given the size of your deposits and the fact that I'm sure your commercial bank loves your business. I do think you would eliminate basically all remaining doubt about your service if you were to consult a banruptcy/trust attorney and set up some sort of legal entity that holds the assets. If it's a trust where the money is paid in and out of and held for the benefit of your customers, I don't think this would violate opening an account in a particular persons benefit. And in case of bankruptcy, then these assets would be protected.If you don't establish this kind of legal entity, any creditors, secured or otherwise could access the funds. This includes the IRS, state government when acting on behalf of unpaid payroll employees, etc. All they would need would be a court order by a judge, which any creditor could achieve.Do I think any of the above has more than a 1 in 100 chance of happening? Probably 1 in 1000 any given year? Absolutely not. But the above legal division of funds, with protection, would in my opinion set aside any logical argument against virtually any league utilizing your service.Thanks,Brian

Charch said:
dehaven123, thanks for taking the time to clarify!

Ernol said:
(1) With the funds in separate accounts, are they considered assets on Leaguesafe's books or are they held by Leaguesafe in the name of a league in trust? Where I am going with this is in the event of a bankruptcy, for example, is there legal assurance that the funds would be returned to the individual leagues and not to pay off creditors? I ask because this has been an issue with 1031 exchange companies that have gone under where the return of funds parked with them has been at risk. (2) Regarding the non-intermingling with the operating account, is this just your intent and practice or is there a legal restriction against this in place? If intent and practice only, could they be changed on the fly if for example, the business were sold? I am not by my questions advocating for trusting funds with a commish versus leaguesafe as the concerns in 1 and 2 above apply to individual commishes as well. As I mentioned previously, I have had a good experience with Leaguesafe thus far. I am just trying to assess the level of safety of the funds from a legal basis.
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Good follow-ups, Ernol. My responses:1. League funds are not considered LeagueSafe assets or revenue. We don't treat that money as our own, and our books reflect as much. It's illegal for us to open bank accounts in other peoples' names, so we can't put the money in the name of a league. Even if we could, we'd be opening thousands of accounts, each with bank fees that nobody wants to pay. When I started LeagueSafe, I looked into this area as well. I'm not a bankruptcy expert, but with our separate operating accounts and customer accounts, I think any reasonable bankruptcy mediator would give customer funds to customers, and operating account funds to business creditors. By the way, we have no 30-day+ debt on the books. Not a cent.2. The separation of our operating accounts and customer accounts is in our Terms of Service. So, if we changed practices without notification, we'd be violating our Terms, and could, potentially, open ourselves up to some kind of action. Same for a new owner. We take this separation very seriously. Is it 100% bulletproof? Probably not, but we think it's reasonably so, and I don't know of any other realistic measures that would could employ to make it any better (I'm open to suggestions!). In the long run, we hope that seasons upon seasons of paid fantasy owners will put the trust issue to rest. PayPal had to start somewhere, right?Some other items that people have mentioned:Pay Pal: We haven't offered PayPal yet because of their fees. We're trying to keep the site as inexpensive as possible. E-check: We're eating those fees as a cost of doing business. We want to maintain a free method for deposits.I hope that helps!- CharchPS: This is the best customer-driven discussion I've had about LeagueSafe, and I appreciate everyone's input.
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