Northern Voice
Footballguy
Rajai got out of one on opening night.
I can't remember a player looking as disinterested as Rivera does.
I can't remember a player looking as disinterested as Rivera does.
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***Official Jays Thread*** Lots of optimism, again. (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter Northern Voice
- Start date
Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
I 
Johnny Mac.
Johnny Mac.
Time Kibitzer
Footballguy
Bautista is hitting crazy right now. In his last 9 plate appearances he has 1 single, 1 double, 1 triple, 3 HRs, and 3 BBs.
Northern Voice
Footballguy
This team is frustrating to watch right now. The results aren't a big deal, most Jays fans know next season is the earliest they can hope to be legit contenders.
What's been frustrating is:
- Brett Cecil struggling with both command and velocity to the point he's back in AAA after a 15 win season last year.
- Travis Snider hitting .167 and striking out way too often.
- Aaron Hill & Adam Lind making it look like 2009 and not 2010 was the aberration year
- John MacDonald, Jayson Nix, Juan Rivera, Mike McCoy, Jose Molina and Corey Patterson all getting significant playing time (due mostly to injuries to Hill, Nix, RDavis, Encarnacion). When 3 or 4 of these guys are in the same lineup, you're not going to win.
On the positive side:
- Bautista is actually looking even better than he did last season.
- Kyle Drabek is, so far, having success adjusting to major league batters.
- Romero looks like Romero.
- Morrow was himself as well in his first game back.
- Lawrie hitting .400+ in AAA
What's been frustrating is:
- Brett Cecil struggling with both command and velocity to the point he's back in AAA after a 15 win season last year.
- Travis Snider hitting .167 and striking out way too often.
- Aaron Hill & Adam Lind making it look like 2009 and not 2010 was the aberration year
- John MacDonald, Jayson Nix, Juan Rivera, Mike McCoy, Jose Molina and Corey Patterson all getting significant playing time (due mostly to injuries to Hill, Nix, RDavis, Encarnacion). When 3 or 4 of these guys are in the same lineup, you're not going to win.
On the positive side:
- Bautista is actually looking even better than he did last season.
- Kyle Drabek is, so far, having success adjusting to major league batters.
- Romero looks like Romero.
- Morrow was himself as well in his first game back.
- Lawrie hitting .400+ in AAA
Northern Voice
Footballguy
Tonight's lineup:
Escobar-SSPatterson-CF Bautista-RF Lind-1BRivera-DH Molina-CSnider-LFMcDonald-2BWoodward-3B
Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
Who is the guy wearing Rivera's uniform?
Northern Voice
Footballguy
Jays win today, Snider and Woodward sent down, 2 corresponding roster moves not announced. Likely Rajai Davis and Scott Podsednik, but I'm going to pretend it's Brett Lawrie and Zach Stewart. Snider has a 5 game hit streak going but has looked bad against fastballs and curveballs, which obviously has made him struggle at the plate. Not sure what going to AAA does for him though, he's destroyed it every time he's been there, needs major league at bats. Demoting him to make room for Scott ####### Podsednik (if that is indeed what happens), on a team that isn't going anywhere this season makes me want to puke.
Limp Ditka
Footballguy
Looks like one of the callups is David Cooper
Northern Voice
Footballguy
He's the best hitter right now. The at-bat he hit his home run in tonight was ridiculous. Pitch sequence: Taken strike, foul ball, foul ball, ball, ball, foul ball, foul ball, ball, foul ball, home run.
Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
Over 500.
Hopefully we get to see the full lineup back in place soon and see Rivera get sent to the bench/minors/anywhere far away from the team.It would also be nice if the freaking pitchers would stop walking everyone! Leading the league in that category probably won't lead to good things.
Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
I have never seen anyone swing at more 58 foot pitches in the dirt than Rajai Davis.
He should NEVER, ever see another fastball.
He should NEVER, ever see another fastball.
Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
Good lord the fool that fills in for Tabler in the booth is just awful.
Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
Holy hell it is so nice to see Lind hitting behind Bautista instead of that piece of crap Rivera.
Northern Voice
Footballguy
Agreed, and hitting well too. Escobar/Bautista/Lind/Arencibia all healthy and hitting at once (if it ever happens) will make for a nice heart of the order.
Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
Yup. And if Patterson continues to hit, even better. Crappy news about Lawrie (fractured hand out 2-3 weeks).
Northern Voice
Footballguy
The Escobar extension announced today is one of the most ridiculously team friendly deals I can remember. 5 million per season for the next two seasons (buying out his 2 remaining arb eligible years) with club options for 2014 and 2015, also at 5 million per season.
2007: 2.6WAR
2008: 3.7WAR
2009: 4.5WAR
2010: 2.1WAR
2011: On pace for 4.5WAR
and being paid as if he's what, a 1 WAR player for the next 4 seasons? Plus he's 28 and heading into his prime, and a great defender.
Escobar's career numbers aren't too far off of Jose Reyes - .765 OPS vs. .779 OPS (with Escobar a better defender/OBP, Reyes obviously way quicker, more steals and better SLG), and he's just signed for 4 years at what will likely be a quarter of the price.
2007: 2.6WAR
2008: 3.7WAR
2009: 4.5WAR
2010: 2.1WAR
2011: On pace for 4.5WAR
and being paid as if he's what, a 1 WAR player for the next 4 seasons? Plus he's 28 and heading into his prime, and a great defender.
Escobar's career numbers aren't too far off of Jose Reyes - .765 OPS vs. .779 OPS (with Escobar a better defender/OBP, Reyes obviously way quicker, more steals and better SLG), and he's just signed for 4 years at what will likely be a quarter of the price.
Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
Rauch just went apes##t on the umpire. Not a guy you want in your face.
Northern Voice
Footballguy
Such a ####### beast. 5 RBI's tonight, over 1000 OPS since his return, he's such a key piece going forward, if he can sustain this production (and now he's become an above average fielder by working his as off and getting in shape and taking tons of extra practice out there), he and Bautista will give the Jays 2 truly elite players. Add them to the 2 gift contracts the Jays have in Lind and Escobar (3 really including Bautista) and there is really a great nucleus going forward.I may be half drunk, but it's so encouraging seeing the young/under control players in the lineup every day - Arencibia, Lind, Escobar, Bautista, Thames, Snider, and Lawrie on the way - all these guys are around for the forseeable future. Morrow is turning in a strong second half, 5-0 in his last 7 starts, Romero emerging as a solid #1 starter, if not a truly elite ace, and pitchers galore on the way in the system.
Limp Ditka
Footballguy
I'm enjoying the Snider ride, but the kid needs to learn how to take a walk... it's going to catch up with him sooner or later.
Northern Voice
Footballguy
I think Snider may always have a poor K/BB ratio, but if he's hitting 30 HR's and slugging over .500 it can be somewhat overlooked.
Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
I really don't get the Snider love. He's been hitting good since his last recall but how long is it really going to last?
Thames on the other hand
What are the chances that Hill gets moved soon?
Thames on the other hand
What are the chances that Hill gets moved soon?
Northern Voice
Footballguy
I like Thames but I'm not sold on him being a long term part of the Jays. BABIP up around .400 last I checked, so his BA is likely to drop when that evens out. Plus, Snider is still a year and a half younger than Thames, as well as being much better defensively. Snider is proving himself capable of CF and above average in LF, while Thames is a butcher in the field and he'll have to hit well enough to DH if he's going to be around over the long haul. The Jays won't pick up Hill's options, but I wouldn't be surprised if he's back next season on a less expensive contract. The 2B free agent market looks awful and the Jays don't have anyone in the system ready to take over.'Cliff Clavin said:I really don't get the Snider love. He's been hitting good since his last recall but how long is it really going to last? Thames on the other hand
Northern Voice
Footballguy
Also, if Jo-Jo Reyes isn't DFA'd or sent to the bullpen before his next start there's something wrong. He's not going to bring anything in a trade and he's proven he's not a starting pitcher. Get Zack Stewart or Jesse Litsch in his spot for next week.
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Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
Snider has definitely been great in the field; light years ahead of Thames in that regards. Watching them at the plate, you'd think that Thames is the one who has been kicking around for 4 years, not Snider. Snider seems to have zero pitch recognition. Throw him a breaking ball low and inside and it is a guaranteeing whiff. He as 1 BB vs 23 Ks since his recall! That is awful! I agree that Thames will regress at the plate but even so, he'll still be a better hitter than Snider imo.I like Thames but I'm not sold on him being a long term part of the Jays. BABIP up around .400 last I checked, so his BA is likely to drop when that evens out. Plus, Snider is still a year and a half younger than Thames, as well as being much better defensively. Snider is proving himself capable of CF and above average in LF, while Thames is a butcher in the field and he'll have to hit well enough to DH if he's going to be around over the long haul. The Jays won't pick up Hill's options, but I wouldn't be surprised if he's back next season on a less expensive contract. The 2B free agent market looks awful and the Jays don't have anyone in the system ready to take over.I really don't get the Snider love. He's been hitting good since his last recall but how long is it really going to last? Thames on the other hand
Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
Stewart + Frasor + Rezp + Dotel for Rasmus?
Fantastic work by AA.
Fantastic work by AA.
boubucarow
Footballguy
I don't believe it.
Captain Hook
Footballguy
BELIEVE it - Frasor and Stewart to White Sox for EJax and Teahen
EJax and Rezp, Dotel, & Patterson to Cardinals for Rasmus plus three bodies
...although because of the money involved in the trade it needs MLB approval
Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
Wonder how things shake out now. Gotta think Encarnation is on the move somewhere.
SS: Escobar
DH: Thames
RF: Bautista
1B: Lind
3B: Lawrie (in less than a week)
CF: Rasmus
C: Aaron Cibia
LF: Snider
2B: Hill
SS: Escobar
DH: Thames
RF: Bautista
1B: Lind
3B: Lawrie (in less than a week)
CF: Rasmus
C: Aaron Cibia
LF: Snider
2B: Hill
Limp Ditka
Footballguy
And we know this how?
Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
From the watching Jays games. Broadcasters say he'll be up right after August 1.The team had planned on having him up earlier in the year then he broke his hand. He's been back playing and lighting it up again.'Limp Ditka said:
Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
Northern Voice
Footballguy
Team stacked with high ceiling players under team control for the forseeable future. Pitching prospect depth is so strong that losing Stewart is no big deal. Zep could be good as well but really no downside to this trade for the Jays.
Escobar/Rasmus/Bautista/Lind/Lawrie/Snider/Arencibia/Thames/Hill. R/L/R/L/R/L/R/L/R.
Escobar/Rasmus/Bautista/Lind/Lawrie/Snider/Arencibia/Thames/Hill. R/L/R/L/R/L/R/L/R.
Parmcat
Canada: Beer, Bacon and Beavers
They will be fun to watch!
Brady Marino
Footballguy
Congrats on acquiring the next Alex Rios.
Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
Snider's last 24 ABs = 12 Ks and 2 hits with a perfect night last night with 4 Ks. It seems he has forgotten everything he learned during his last stint in the minors.
Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
If he sucks, AA will just dump him on the White Sox or Angels.
Brady Marino
Footballguy
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Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
Northern Voice
Footballguy
The Rasmus trade gives the Jays a lot more to consider for their outfield going forward. If, like me, you don't think Thames or Loewen is a long term answer in left field and Snider continues to struggle at the major league level, the long term outfield might see Rasmus shift to left, with Gose in centre and Bautista in right.In any case, for right now they're going with the lineup that gives them the best chance to win every night, and even though Thames just snapped an 0 for 23 run, he's looked better than Snider. He doesn't have half the potential though...Snider gone down
Northern Voice
Footballguy
I'm really impressed with Rasmus over the last few games. He's hitting the ball hard, even on his outs. He hustles and has good speed once he gets going. He's a lot better at reading the ball and taking the proper route to it than any of the other Jays outfielders, he's settled down the mess that was CF when Davis and Patterson were out there. Tonight he executed a perfect sacrifice bunt, then beat the throw out at first to turn it from a sacrifice bunt to a single. Then he advanced from first to second on a sacrifice fly to centre field to take away the double play and get into scoring position.
Lawrie in his debut tonight, looked nervous at the field, bobbling a couple plays there but he looks really good with the bat. He also hit everything hard, and went 2 for 4 with an RBI and showed a great approach at the plate, a good eye - taking close pitches and getting ahead in the count, and then when he did get behind in the 8th, he was still able to protect the plate and drive the ball for his 2nd hit of the night.
There have been zero signs of any bad attitude for either of these players since they've come to the Jays. It may help that Toronto is a very young team and they fit in pretty well with a lot of other guys the same age.
Lawrie in his debut tonight, looked nervous at the field, bobbling a couple plays there but he looks really good with the bat. He also hit everything hard, and went 2 for 4 with an RBI and showed a great approach at the plate, a good eye - taking close pitches and getting ahead in the count, and then when he did get behind in the 8th, he was still able to protect the plate and drive the ball for his 2nd hit of the night.
There have been zero signs of any bad attitude for either of these players since they've come to the Jays. It may help that Toronto is a very young team and they fit in pretty well with a lot of other guys the same age.
Northern Voice
Footballguy
Lawrie 5 for 11, HR, 2 R, 2 RBI in his first series with the Jays.
Rasmus was also 5 for 11 with a HR, 2 R and 2 RBI in the series.
Rasmus was also 5 for 11 with a HR, 2 R and 2 RBI in the series.
Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
I keep hearing about all this Snider 'potential', but I just don't see it ever coming to fruition. He's had a chance the last 3 years with Jays and has proven that he has some power and a pretty good glove. His approach at the plate is just awful. No idea of what he is trying hit and no ability to lay off pitches. All the talent in the world isn't going to help when he's swinging at every breaking ball in the dirt.Thames is definitely coming back down to reality after a great start. Interesting how his recent slump that you mention coincides with the acquistion of Rasmus and Thames' bump down to the 6th spot. I agree that Thames and Loewen probably aren't the long term answer. Gose probably won't be ready till 2013 and maybe longer if the Jays do become serious contenders. It would be nice to see them trade Snider and maybe Thames + others for a legitimate OF (Kemp, Braun).Lawrie has looked greatThe Rasmus trade gives the Jays a lot more to consider for their outfield going forward. If, like me, you don't think Thames or Loewen is a long term answer in left field and Snider continues to struggle at the major league level, the long term outfield might see Rasmus shift to left, with Gose in centre and Bautista in right.In any case, for right now they're going with the lineup that gives them the best chance to win every night, and even though Thames just snapped an 0 for 23 run, he's looked better than Snider. He doesn't have half the potential though...Snider gone down
Northern Voice
Footballguy
The fact that it's the approach and pitch selection with Snider is a good thing though, no? It should be easier to correct. You can't deny the bat speed that he has, and towards the end of last season he had found a really nice swing. No idea what has happened to him since. Since his original call up (3 years ago) he's lost a lot of fat and gained muscle which has seen him become a better base runner and fielder but somewhere along the way he lost it at the plate. LF is traditionally a power position and Snider at his best could fill that role but he has looked bad at the plate most of this season.I really like Thames, but on a team contending with the Yankees and Red Sox, I think he's a 4th Outfielder, but who knows, he's come a long way really quickly, maybe he has a higher ceiling than I think.'Cliff Clavin said:
Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
I don't know if it is a good thing or not. Right after his last call up he was laying off those pitches and hitting great... so what happened and why couldn't he go back to laying off them? He does have a nice swing and good bat speed but if there is a mental block of some sorts in place, those things are kind of useless. A hitch in a swing can be fixed by good coaching. Mental problems are much harder to deal with. I also am a big fan of Thames. If he can keep his numbers around .300/.500/.850 (which he was at for most of his brief season) I see no reason why he can't stick around as the 3rd OF. Probably a stretch that he can maintain those numbers but here's hoping. I really like Davis is the 4th OF. His speed is such a great weapon to bring off the bench.
Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
Henderson Alvarez possibly getting a start on Friday.
