Sea Duck
Footballguy
Eli has improved every year he's been in the league, and he's currently 5th in the league at 64.7%.
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
Welcome to Our Forums. Once you've registered and logged in, you're primed to talk football, among other topics, with the sharpest and most experienced fantasy players on the internet.
Tim Tebow - 8.17.21 Waived By Jacksonville (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Finless
- Start date
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Through one less start than Tebow currently has, he had a 48.2% completion percentage.
duaneok66
Footballguy
any half dead NFL QB can complete 50% of their passes - that is NO feat whatsoever .lukinrat's narrative was (easily) the post of the month.
packersfan
Footballguy
It would actually represent a rather significant amount of improvement for Tebow.
duaneok66
Footballguy
I stand corrected.
Sea Duck
Footballguy
Wait, what?
Dizzy
Footballguy
I think yds/att is a more telling QB stat than completion percentage. If a QB has a high pct, but very low yds/att then he's just a check-down machine. TD:INT ratio trumps them both of course.
I'm sure the league's elite passers excel at all three (or at least 2/3).
With that flutter motion Tebow has, I'm not sure the deep out will ever be in the game plan, and defense will have an increasingly easier time against him as the field squeezes down.
I'm sure the league's elite passers excel at all three (or at least 2/3).
With that flutter motion Tebow has, I'm not sure the deep out will ever be in the game plan, and defense will have an increasingly easier time against him as the field squeezes down.
massraider
Footballguy
That's the pass I always think of. Every good QB makes that throw with regularity. When the clock is an issue, you need to make that throw.
packersfan
Footballguy
I don't necessarily disagree but the Broncos could have used some successful check-downs yesterday. How many three-and-outs did they have? Get some easy completions and keep the drives going. There was none of that going for Denver yesterday.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Sorry, it was actually worse than that. Through two more starts than Tebow currently has, he had a completion percentage of 48.2%. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MannEl00.htm rookie year in 2004 - 9 games, 7 starts, 95/197 for a completion percentage of 48.2%
And his second year wasn't much better. 16 games, 52.8%. Never hit 60% in a single season until 2008. Still has a sub-60% career completion percentage.
Edited to add: Eli's rookie year and Tebow's "story so far" are actually remarkably similar. Except, obviously Tebow has much more rushing yardage, 7 rushing TDs to Eli's 0 and much higher yards per attempt. Plus he's thrown 9 TDs and only 4 picks, as opposed to Eli's 6 TDs and 9 picks. Tebow has 2 more fumbles, though. In less games. Obviously that's not good.
Last edited by a moderator:
The Giants coaching staff did not adjust the playbook at all for Eli his rookie year. The story goes, he had a very steep learning curve and the coaches were impressed by his grasp of the offense and just threw him out there. This is in contrast to putting Tebow in the shotgun for 40 snaps b/c that's what he did in college.
Tebows best weapon is his unpredictability. He doesn't know what he is going to do so how can the opposing defense possibly know. He reminds me of a whirling dervish, he spins round and round until either him or the defense gets dizzy leading to either plays of genius or complete nonsense.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Calling shenanigans on this one. The playbook was condensed specifically for Eli in the midst of his rookie year. At the time it was condensed, he had completed less than 40% of his passes. Also, Tebow has had three head coaches in five starts, with two distinct offensive systems.
I read in either Accorsi or Vacchiano's book that they asked eli to do much more than they planned on because he was picking everything up. But even Eli admitted that although he digested the playbook, he was thinking too much his rookie year and took too much on.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Eli Manning had asked the coaching staff to condense the playbook after he posted a 0.0 QB rating against the Ravens. According to this archived article from the day after the next game, they did, and he had a much, much better rest of his season. At the time it was condensed, Eli had 4 starts, was 42/110 for 516 yards, 1 TD and 6 INTs. Point is, Tebow's not exactly in "worst starting QB stats ever through 5 games" territory here. Still lots of time on this one.
shnikies
Footballguy
Thank you. Carolina had the same amount of time to install an offense to serve Newton's strengths. Why didn't the Broncos do it?
Joe Summer
Footballguy
I heard two new excuses for Tebow on a local sports talk radio show this morning:
1. "John Fox is obviously setting him up to fail because Fox ordered Tebow to pass in situations where he could have easily run for a first down."
2. "There's no way a scrambler like Tebow would get sacked 7 times if that offensive line was any good."
1. "John Fox is obviously setting him up to fail because Fox ordered Tebow to pass in situations where he could have easily run for a first down."
2. "There's no way a scrambler like Tebow would get sacked 7 times if that offensive line was any good."
Tebow took 40 snaps from the Shotgun? Last week? I'm honestly asking because I do not recall the number being that high and because in comparison to the Lions (who operate out of the shothun A TON) it wans't noticeable to me watching the game.
shnikies
Footballguy
I believe he runs pretty well.They are still looking for Tebow's strengths?
CalBear
Footballguy
Unfortunately they have him playing the QB position, where even the most prolific runners throw 3-4 times more often than they run.I believe he runs pretty well.
Portis 26
Madden Freak
Without being needlessly contrarian, it's not unheard of for talented QBs not to play very well their first few games as a starter. Elway looked terrible as a rookie for example. It is not inconceivable that Tebow could be a good QB who is going through growing pains.
Also, it doesn't look as though Tebow is playing in an offense designed for his skills. The last 3 games of last year he was and he put up big numbers. This year he's playing in a dreary grind-it-out attack that forces him to be a pocket passer and plays to his weaknesses.
Also, it doesn't look as though Tebow is playing in an offense designed for his skills. The last 3 games of last year he was and he put up big numbers. This year he's playing in a dreary grind-it-out attack that forces him to be a pocket passer and plays to his weaknesses.
shnikies
Footballguy
He's also shown he is capable of throwing the ball. He was looking for his strength and running the ball would be it. Lining up under center is pushing a square peg into a round hole. He will not succeed there. If they insist on putting him there they mine as well convert him to an h-back.Unfortunately they have him playing the QB position, where even the most prolific runners throw 3-4 times more often than they run.I believe he runs pretty well.
CalBear
Footballguy
Tebow has 19 rushing attempts in the past two weeks, #1 among QBs; how exactly is he being forced to be a pocket passer?
massraider
Footballguy
It's true. They keep making him play quarterback, and throw the ball.
packersfan
Footballguy
I think we can safely shoot down the myth that the Broncos aren't trying to adapt to Tebow's skill set by using the shotgun more:
Now for statistical documentation. The Broncos have been passing from the shotgun 79.7 percent of the time in the past two games with Tebow at quarterback _ a whopping 23.4 percent increase from the first five games started by Kyle Orton.
Only the Baltimore Ravens, who have been way behind in each of their past two games, have thrown a higher-percentage of passes from the shotgun (86.2) than the Broncos in that span.
Broncos’ shotgun running plays are also up 15 percent in Tebow’s two starts. Overall, the Broncos have run 16.7 more plays from the shotgun formation in Tebow’s two starts as compared to Orton’s five starts.
Link
Now for statistical documentation. The Broncos have been passing from the shotgun 79.7 percent of the time in the past two games with Tebow at quarterback _ a whopping 23.4 percent increase from the first five games started by Kyle Orton.
Only the Baltimore Ravens, who have been way behind in each of their past two games, have thrown a higher-percentage of passes from the shotgun (86.2) than the Broncos in that span.
Broncos’ shotgun running plays are also up 15 percent in Tebow’s two starts. Overall, the Broncos have run 16.7 more plays from the shotgun formation in Tebow’s two starts as compared to Orton’s five starts.
Link
killrobotkill
Footballguy
I don't understand the regression Tebow has had from the 2010 version to the 2011 version. In those few starts last year his passing, footwork, etc. didn't look this awful. Not the greatest, but not nearly this bad either. Having a new offensive system shouldn't affect his mechanics like that. Just weird.
massraider
Footballguy
People should read that article, any and all Tebow apologists (which is what they are at this point).
massraider
Footballguy
By the way, not for nothing, but almost every other QB when they have a game that bad, all we get is "What a crappy game by the QB, haw haw haw". When Tarvaris Jackson came in and sucked for the Vikings, we weren't told about how his teammates let himm down, Tarvaris just sucked. I never hear people rising up to explain how BMarsh kept dropping Chad Henne passes, so we need to cut him some slack.
Tebow gets his game dissected, play by play. This receiver coulda done this, this receiver coulda done that. His line wasn't great. The coach made him play under center a few times!
Tebow gets his game dissected, play by play. This receiver coulda done this, this receiver coulda done that. His line wasn't great. The coach made him play under center a few times!
Henry Ford
Footballguy
People are invested in him. He's a polarizing figure, and a lot of people have been arguing about whether he'd be a decent NFL QB since he was a sophomore in college. They want to be right. He's also a hard worker, by all accounts, and a lot of football fans like to believe that the NFL is a place where guys can still succeed based on incredibly hard work alone, as long as they have some talent.He's simply not very good as a starting QB in the NFL right now. It's tough to remember, given the number of guys who have lit it up as rookies the past few years, that most QBs haven't historically stepped in and absolutely lit it up. After his first two seasons as a starter, Drew Brees had more picks than TDs. Troy Aikman had double the number of picks as TDs through his first 11 games as a starter. Yes, guys like Bradford, Newton, Dalton, and the like have looked tremendous in the last couple of years, but that's really abnormal. It's often the product of where the QB ends up, much like Culpepper was probably a product of being in Minnesota. And Tebow looked less lost chucking the ball to Lloyd last season, much like Culpepper to Moss, Newton to Steve Smith, and Dalton to A.J. Green. It's going to take some time, and someone committing to him as a starter for some time, for him to reach his potential. That simply may not happen. And even if it does, his potential may never be better than a middle-of-the-road NFL QB. He still has a chance, though. Future's still wide open. It may simply click one of these days, and if the game slows down for him he may become a very capable NFL starter.
I think a closer examination of his stats from last year shows he was not very good then either.He put up a lot of garbage stats in the 2nd half of games last year also.Just looking at the first half of the 5 games he has started, the Broncos have averaged just 27 plays and 113 yards of offense in those games. He has led 33 drives, or an average of 4.1 plays per drive.There have been 20 punts, 3 TDs, 2 FGs, and 2 missed FGs. The three TDs came on drives of 26, 32, and 40 yards (so he has yet to lead a 1st half TD drive from his own end of the field - he should be thanking the defense for putting him in those positions).This year, in the first half, he has 61 yards passing, 38.9% completion, and 48.6% passer rating.In the 2nd half, 351 yards, 48% completion, and 83.3 rating.Last year, in the first half, he had 222 yards, 48% completion, 66.9 rating. In the 2nd half, 432 yards, 51%, 91.3 rating.
Dizzy
Footballguy
I understand the public hate for Tim Tebow from a “potential NFL QB” perspective because it would appear that all of the “fatal flaws” that have been discussed to death about his mechanics are entirely accurate (to date). It seems pretty obvious that the delivery/trajectory/velocity are not things that can be repaired to satisfaction anytime soon. So I can see where the doubters and nay-sayers are - for the most part - spot on.
What I can’t understand is the undying LOVE for Tim Tebow. There have been a LOT of great “college QB’s” that we knew would offer very little to the position at the NFL level, and as a whole we seem OK with that. So where does the seemingly unanimous public outcry for Tim Tebow come from? I have a feeling the answer is probably something we’re not allowed to discuss here, but have there been ANY flashes that he can be an NFL franchise QB?
I just wonder if maybe those things we’re not allowed to discuss are somehow detracting from time that could be spent working on; skillsets, film study, football IQ, etc?
For example; Chad Pennington had a lot of “NFL-caliper-arm” limitations, but he was able to compensate to a degree through football IQ and playing within his abilities to the best of his abilities.
What I can’t understand is the undying LOVE for Tim Tebow. There have been a LOT of great “college QB’s” that we knew would offer very little to the position at the NFL level, and as a whole we seem OK with that. So where does the seemingly unanimous public outcry for Tim Tebow come from? I have a feeling the answer is probably something we’re not allowed to discuss here, but have there been ANY flashes that he can be an NFL franchise QB?
I just wonder if maybe those things we’re not allowed to discuss are somehow detracting from time that could be spent working on; skillsets, film study, football IQ, etc?
For example; Chad Pennington had a lot of “NFL-caliper-arm” limitations, but he was able to compensate to a degree through football IQ and playing within his abilities to the best of his abilities.
Joe Summer
Footballguy
I'm not sure if Pennington is a good comparison. Pennington had all the required skillsets EXCEPT for arm strength (which is a somewhat overrated stat anyway). But his footwork, mechanics, ability to read defenses, etc., were all NFL-caliber.Pennington is proof that you can overcome deficiency in ONE skill. But Tebow has deficiencies in MULTIPLE skills. So far he hasn't shown that he can compensate for those deficiencies.
Dizzy
Footballguy
Yes, that's exactly what I was trying to get across!
Could (should) Tebow be doing MORE? Because if this is where he's at now (he's not a rookie)... then the future looks bleak for him and his flock.I don't disagree with most of what you've said (I did hear people defending Henne because of BMarsh previously) but there's a few problems on this thread and the board in general
eople conflate fantasy with real life. They are not the same thing. There are some people (I lump myself into this group) who solely care about Tebow's fantasy production. I don't think Tebow will be a good NFL QB. I don't really care for the guy at all, he rubs me the wrong way. But I have him on my (decimated) fantasy team. For some reason people can't seem to understand that being a good fantasy QB and being a good real QB are not always the same thing. I've read so many posts of people arguing at each other about different things.That being said, I'm of the opinion that Tebow's awful game (really, awful past 2 games) are mostly due to his talent. But, I'm also not ready to excuse the coaching staff (it's not simply calling plays from the Shotgun, it's what those plays are... Tebow on a 7-step drop is not exactly "fitting" an offense to him) or the WRs - they were bad last week - either. I think the blame goes as follows: Tebow, Coaches, Receivers. However, it's worth noting that an improvement in the later 2 (coaches, receivers) could help Tebow from a fantasy perspective.
packersfan
Footballguy
John Clayton says Tebow could be benched this week if he plays poorly again. Tebow is obviously an enormous risk this week.
shnikies
Footballguy
Everyone focuses on Tebow's arm strength and accuracy but the downfall for him is intelligence. If he were smart he'd be able to overcome those weaknesses by being able to read defenses. At this point, and his Wonderlic supports this, it doesn't look like he has the head to be an NFL quarterback. I said it before and I'll say it again, the only chance he has is by playing in a simple shotgun spread offense. I said he has a chance not that he would succeed. He will not succeed under center. He's running 79.7% of the plays from shotgun and that number should be 100%. People are arguing with me and saying I'm backing him but I'm not, all I'm saying is that any competent coach would know there's no reason for him to ever be under center unless he's in victory formation.
packersfan
Footballguy
There isn't a single head coach in the NFL who would run 100% of their plays from the shotgun. Not one. The fact Fox has increased his shotgun usage so significantly is rather remarkable when you consider his typical approach. I think it's pretty obvious the Broncos are trying to do what they can to allow Tebow to be more comfortable and successful. The fact he makes so many poor throws and decisions regardless of the formation has nothing whatsoever to do with coaching. As I noted earlier, the Pick 6 he threw came out of the shotgun and was just a pathetic throw. He had Thomas open in the back of the end zone and threw a terrible pass. I believe the forced fumble/TD came out of a shotgun alignment as well if I recall correctly.
shnikies
Footballguy
How many coaches have Tebow as their starting quarterback? These aren't normal circumstances.
packersfan
Footballguy
I'll make you a deal - if Tebow shows he can stop making horrible decisions out of the shotgun (like the Pick 6 I've been referring to) then perhaps we can get on board with radically altering conventional NFL thinking to accommodate him. Sound good?
CalBear
Footballguy
Look, if you're going to completely ignore the substance of the post, just don't bother replying. Tebow has sucked out of the shotgun, the coaches have put him in the shotgun more than anyone else in the league, so any attempt to apologize for him by blaming the coaches for not putting him in the shotgun is totally stupid.
Last edited by a moderator:
shnikies
Footballguy
Look, why are you ignoring the substance of my posts where I never defend Tebow or apologize for Tebow? The only thing I'm stating and I'll make it very clear for the 9th time (I'll have to go back and check on that number) is that the best chance for Tebow to succeed is by running exclusively out of the shotgun. That chance may be a 2% chance but it's better than the alternative. How quickly people ignore the fact he has five starts under his belt and we're dealing with an extremely unconventional talent yet he's already a failure. Did you watch Steve Young in Tampa Bay? (Oh my God! He's comparing Tebow to Steve Young! What an idiot!) I'm not. All I'm saying is crazier things have happened in the NFL even if Tebow becomes a viable starter.
massraider
Footballguy
If that's the only thing you are saying, consider it said, we all heard and understand your position, and freaking move on.
shnikies
Footballguy
Thank you. It's been tough to get my point across since every time I say that, I get a response saying I'm apologizing for Tebow and that I'm claiming he's looked great and is a lock to be a pro bowl quarterback.
massraider
Footballguy
That last statement is true of any QB. I get that Tebow is a viable fantasy starter right now, and a lot of people don't care if he is the next great Pro Bowl QB. But they should. Because his floor is zero. Zero fantasy points, if Brady Quinn is starting week 12. The Broncos cannot let this guy go out there every week and do what he did last week. It's not fair to Tebow. I am all for letting a guy take his lumps as a young QB, but geez. It's not fair to the rest of the team, either. How much is he learning, really? He's not in anything resembling an NFL offense. They are running so many plays just because he is in there. So is he learning how to be an NFL QB? Or are the Broncos stunting his growth by trying to run as close to a Florida offense as possible, and not letting him learn to play in more conventional sets?Here is a decent example: Jackie Battle. Had a nice stat line, and a TD last night. Owners that started him were ecstatic. But if they watched the game, he's devoid of talent. Any back on that roster is a possibility to take his job. So they can enjoy the points, but they should count themselves lucky. And if they are planning on Battle giving them 60-80 and a TD down the stretch, they really cannot act surprised when he gives them nothing.I don't disagree with most of what you've said (I did hear people defending Henne because of BMarsh previously) but there's a few problems on this thread and the board in general
packersfan
Footballguy
It could be zero fantasy points in Week 9 if he gets benched. That's my concern right now. I'm not going to lie - I'm a scared spitless Tebow owner. I don't know what to do with the guy.
massraider
Footballguy
I felt he should have been pulled last week. This is probably a bad analogy, but if you have a young starting pitcher that is learning, if he has given up 15 runs in three innings, you pull him.First quarter, I was laughing. 4th quarter, I wanted to run out there, and help him off the field. Haven't felt sympathy like that for a Broncos player in a long time.
packersfan
Footballguy
I thought he should've been pulled too. I'm no Kyle Orton fan but at no point in his time with Denver has Orton been that bad. Even against the Chargers he was playing much better than Tebow did last week. It's pretty obvious Fox and Elway were right when they said Orton gives the Broncos their best chance to win. He's by far the superior QB. But they caved to public pressure and went with Tebow. The only question at this point that I can see is how much longer will they stick with him?
FavreCo
Footballguy
Gotta love Bill Cowher. He just said what the Broncos wish they could do.
Appearing on Fantasy Football Today on Tuesday, CBS Sports NFL analyst Bill Cowher said he doesn't like Tim Tebow's prospects for the rest of the season. "If you have him, you need to get rid of this guy as quick as possible," Cowher said when asked what he would do with him in Fantasy Football leagues.
Good job Chin, state what to do in FF terms.
Appearing on Fantasy Football Today on Tuesday, CBS Sports NFL analyst Bill Cowher said he doesn't like Tim Tebow's prospects for the rest of the season. "If you have him, you need to get rid of this guy as quick as possible," Cowher said when asked what he would do with him in Fantasy Football leagues.
Good job Chin, state what to do in FF terms.
