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WR Antonio Brown, FA (5 Viewers)

I'm not the one in here posting 5000 times defending a moron like brown, but I'm the idiot. I think you 2 may be related.
You DO understand that moron just got to exactly what he wanted, right?  A truckload  of money & away from a franchise that is allowing the QB to almost run the team?

You can say he values money over winning (although I’m not sure how much better Pitt will be this year without AB/Bell-need to improve their D), but you don’t seem to understand what the term moron means.

 
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And this is why, absent the Crazy Cowboys involvement, players rarely get traded for 1st or 2nd round picks. And Arizona might get a 3rd for Rosen if they're lucky.
Entirely different situations.  A 31 year old WR seeking $20MM per year vs a 2nd year top 10 drafted QB on a rookie contract.  If the Cards draft Murray, Rosen will most certainly fetch more than a 3rd.  

 
As badly as Brown has behaved and as greatly as he has alienated many football fans, the relocation to the Raiders and soo. To Las Vegas would appear to give him abundant marketing possibilities. And he gets additional salary.

It definitely will be something to look for in the future, as malcontents evaluate Brown’s plan.

Brown wins huge in this standoff with the Steelers.

 
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And this is why, absent the Crazy Cowboys involvement, players rarely get traded for 1st or 2nd round picks. And Arizona might get a 3rd for Rosen if they're lucky.
Rosen't isn't the publicity/locker room risk that AB is and doesn't have the opportunity cost cap hit risk that AB does.  His contract would be downright insane for a new team.  Plus he's a QB, and teams have to overpay for the spin at the wheel to try to land a franchise guy.  They'll get a mid-first.

 
So if my tallying is correct, PIT gives up Bell and Brown and loses $7M in cap space for a 3rd and a 5th and potentially a 3rd round compensatory pick (if they don’t sign a top earning free agent). That includes the $14.5 million salary cap credit from Bell not playing last season. 

 
So what is the moron going to do if they cant trade him? I hope it comes to that & he sits out so he doesn't get paid. What does that tell you when they cant get even get remotely decent compensation. They took care of him financially when they didn't have to. I didn't like what bell did but he wasn't under contract.  Screw Brown,  he is an idiot, and I think has mental issues. If he plays somewhere else next year you can cut last years numbers in half at least. 
Man you get really emotional/personal over this stuff.

Kinda weird.

 
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So if my tallying is correct, PIT gives up Bell and Brown and loses $7M in cap space for a 3rd and a 5th and potentially a 3rd round compensatory pick (if they don’t sign a top earning free agent). That includes the $14.5 million salary cap credit from Bell not playing last season. 
That is a lot of production out the door and not much to show for it.

 
Rosen't isn't the publicity/locker room risk that AB is and doesn't have the opportunity cost cap hit risk that AB does.  His contract would be downright insane for a new team.  Plus he's a QB, and teams have to overpay for the spin at the wheel to try to land a franchise guy.  They'll get a mid-first.
I would think so too on Rosen getting a 1st, but I guess we’ll just wait and see. 

 
Rosen't isn't the publicity/locker room risk that AB is and doesn't have the opportunity cost cap hit risk that AB does.  His contract would be downright insane for a new team.  Plus he's a QB, and teams have to overpay for the spin at the wheel to try to land a franchise guy.  They'll get a mid-first.
Rosen ranked last in the league in passer rating. Other teams will figure out the Cards will have him collecting dust on the sideline watching Murray. I don’t think they will get a mid first for Rosen. They might get something like a flip of a late first for their second and another mid round pick.

 
Rosen't isn't the publicity/locker room risk that AB is and doesn't have the opportunity cost cap hit risk that AB does.  His contract would be downright insane for a new team.  Plus he's a QB, and teams have to overpay for the spin at the wheel to try to land a franchise guy.  They'll get a mid-first.
It isn't what they are worth, it is what you have to pay.

If AZ drafts Murray, they have no leverage.  They have to take the best they can get.

Kinda like what just happened when PIT lost all leverage.

 
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You DO understand that moron just got to exactly what he wanted, right?  A truckload  of money & away from a franchise that is allowing the QB to almost run the team?

You can say he values money over winning (although I’m not sure how much better Pitt will be this year without AB/Bell-need to improve their D), but you don’t seem to understand what the term moron means.
You are correct, not a moron. He is piece of garbage. 

 
The Steelers were going to take an L on this one as soon as they ended up boxed in a corner where everyone else knew that they essentially HAD to trade him.

But while it's hard to fault the Raiders for taking a shot and only parting with a 3rd and 5th rounder to grab a talent like Brown, I think it's way too early to declare them winners. $19M a year with $30M guaranteed to a 31yo with a recent history of off field incidents and team toxicity certainly increases the acquisition cost quite a bit.

As the Raiders are currently built, I don't think winning a Super Bowl is a reality for them in the next year or two. And I'm not sure how much a 33yo Brown making $19M helps them in 3 years. So really, I think it comes down to whether Brown can help turn Carr around. If he can help do that, then the trade will be worth it. If he can't, it will merely be a move that maybe wins a couple of games more and sells more tickets and little more than that.

 
King of the Jungle said:
I just hope this is not the beginning of a trend where players are frequently dictating where they go much like the NBA. 
I know, it's awful when a grown adult wants a say in where they work...

Note: This is not a defense of Antonio Brown (who has acted like an ### clown). 

 
Is the new contract even all that bad? It's not like some of the guys getting that money for 6 years with 50-60 million guaranteed.  He is WORTH the contract he signed.

Just not sure what the raiders are doing.  Reminds me of fantasy owners who rebuild then make win now moves right away

 
osubuckeyeman said:
I'll be honest. I have no idea and I think we won't know till we see Carr/ Murray and Brown together on the field. 
I don't either, but here goes. This list is from the lens of non-ppr, partial keeper league. (Think intermediate point between redraft and dynasty)

WRs that I take over AB

Hopkins, Julio, Adams, M. Thomas, T. Hill (5)

WR that I 50/50 take over AB

ODB, JuJu, M. Evans (3)

I would take AB, as of this writing, if we were drafting tomorrow, over Cooper, AJ Green, K. Allen, Hilton, etc...

IMO- AB is anywhere between WR6 and WR9 overall.

Curious what others think and why.

 
matuski said:
It isn't what they are worth, it is what you have to pay.

If AZ drafts Murray, they have no leverage.  They have to take the best they can get.

Kinda like what just happened when PIT lost all leverage.
I agree.  They have the leverage of "if you don't give us what we want he's a cheap backup QB on our bench and you can suck eggs and have Case Keenum as your QB of the future".  But no reason to think he's not "worth" a 1st.  He was the 10th pick last year and who knows where a different team had him ranked - maybe WAS was trying to move up and get him too.  So now a team that liked the guy last year watched him struggle with an overmatched HC, a historical fraud OC, and a terrible OL.  It's easy to think that team wouldn't discount Rosen's performance under those circumstances.  I don't, and I'm buying him all over the place in dynasty at prices that indicate the current owner does.

PIT didn't have that leverage.  AB wasn't coming back.  And the new team wasn't getting a guy on a contract they could afford to strike out with.  AB comes with infinitely more risk than Rosen does to a new team.

edit: I do agree with Andy and won't discuss Rosen any more in the AB thread.

 
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That deadline of friday was so dumb. And who cares about a roster bonus. Wait until at least draft week to make people think harder and make antonio know you’re thinking of keeping him so shut up. 

Or if this is the best offer for 2019 draft, wait until june. Maybe there are injuries and you can get better picks because teams don’t know where they are selecting yet. Plus you cut the cap hit in half. This was a terrible move on all levels. 

 
GroveDiesel said:
So really, I think it comes down to whether Brown can help turn Carr around. 
That's a huge part of it. And cooper wasn't able to do that.  

The raiders gave up mack and cooper but will replace mack with a stud pass rusher, replace cooper with brown, and they'll still have two late firsts and an early second this year plus two firsts next year.  And it will still be much cheaper than signing the guys they traded. 

I see this year as an investment in finding out 1year they have with carr. Give him the best receiver in the nfl in his prime and probably more weapons. If he can't get it done they will have a middling to late draft pick and an extra first to move up and get a franchise guy im a better qb draft. 

If that helps carr get back on track then it was worth it.  If not then they survived giving a max contract to a bad qb and got a ton of value for mack and cooper before they inevitably left for huge money in free agency.  Either way give them credit for making difficult decisions that were widely panned at the time but look much better now. 

 
The problem with trading for a great player and getting a great deal because he is a headache to his former team is, you are now stuck with said headache.

It will be interesting to see how Gruden takes to his antics.

 
No no no.  I read "done deal". 
I believe it can't be a 'done deal'  until the trade is submitted to the NFL office on the first day (or later ) of the new league year.  Either team could back out before then.

From the NFL site

"

March 13 The 2019 league year and free agency period begin at 4:00 p.m., New York time. 

The first day of the 2019 league year will end at 11:59:59 p.m., New York time, on March 13. Clubs will receive a personnel notice that will include all transactions submitted to the league office during the period between 4:00 p.m., New York time, and 11:59:59 p.m., New York time, on March 13."

 
In 2003 when things went toxic with TO with the 49ers, they traded then 30YO Owens for a 5th round pick and DE Brandon Whiting (who?) Whiting played a grand total of 5 games in SF and that was the end of his NFL career.

In 2007 the Raiders traded 30 year old Randy Moss to the Patriots for a 4th round draft pick.

So, there aren't a ton of data point here, but , given these two, I dont feel complete terrible about getting a third and a fifth for AB. Of course you look at his talent and say hes worth more than that, but there's clearly a ton of baggage coming with the talent and he was not going to be welcome back in Pittsburgh.   You cauterize the wound,  take what's on the table and move on.

So it goes.  I'm really hoping the past couple years have been a wake up call and they become better at both evaluating character when drafting and also squashing primadona bull#### when it starts rather than letting it build into this nonsense.  JuJu, Conner, Cam Heyward,  TJ Watt...this team has a core nucleus of of leaders and talent.  There's a glaring hole on the inside of the defense I really hope they address in the draft (or, much less likely,  in FA).

AB - the prior 7 years had been a lot of fun.  The last 4 months sucked and you pretty much took a #### on your legacy here.  You got paid.  Enjoy a bunch of losing seasons out west.  :shrug:

 
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In 2003 when things went toxic with TO with the 49ers, they traded then 30YO Owens for a 5th round pick and DE Brandon Whiting (who?) Whiting played a grand total of 5 games in SF and that was the end of his NFL career.

In 2007 the Raiders traded 30 year old Randy Moss to the Patriots for a 4th round draft pick.

So, there aren't a ton of data point here, but ,
Uhm...Keyshawn Johnson. I wonder who his coach was back then.

 
That's a huge part of it. And cooper wasn't able to do that.  

The raiders gave up mack and cooper but will replace mack with a stud pass rusher, replace cooper with brown, and they'll still have two late firsts and an early second this year plus two firsts next year.  And it will still be much cheaper than signing the guys they traded. 

I see this year as an investment in finding out 1year they have with carr. Give him the best receiver in the nfl in his prime and probably more weapons. If he can't get it done they will have a middling to late draft pick and an extra first to move up and get a franchise guy im a better qb draft. 

If that helps carr get back on track then it was worth it.  If not then they survived giving a max contract to a bad qb and got a ton of value for mack and cooper before they inevitably left for huge money in free agency.  Either way give them credit for making difficult decisions that were widely panned at the time but look much better now. 
Carr was pretty good last year, considering his top weapon was Jared Cook. 68% completions, 7.3 YPA, and a 93 passer rating. They'd have zero trouble getting at least a day 2 pick for him, if they decide he's not their guy going forward.

If they nail a pass rusher at the #4 pick, things are looking up for Oakland, though I think there is a good chance nobody in this draft is ever as good as Mack. 

 
100%. AB is a legend forever now. 
Eh, I don't know about that. That's a bit hyperbolic, and we'll see if he holds up mentally in Oakland. That's first and foremost. He really did besmirch his legacy a bit.

But if his primary goal was to control his employment situation and wages, then yes, he should get an A.  

 
Eh, I don't know about that. That's a bit hyperbolic, and we'll see if he holds up mentally in Oakland. That's first and foremost. He really did besmirch his legacy a bit.

But if his primary goal was to control his employment situation and wages, then yes, he should get an A.  
I don't even care what he does with the Raiders. He got his money and the Raiders got a HoF player for nothing. I love seeing fellow union members do good for themselves. As for AB's mental health, are you sure this wasn't just all part of the act to make the trade happen? He saw what Bell did and how stubborn the Steelers ownership was willing to be. Maybe he knew that for this to happen, there had to be a lot of pressure built up. 

 
I don't even care what he does with the Raiders. He got his money and the Raiders got a HoF player for nothing. I love seeing fellow union members do good for themselves. As for AB's mental health, are you sure this wasn't just all part of the act to make the trade happen? He saw what Bell did and how stubborn the Steelers ownership was willing to be. Maybe he knew that for this to happen, there had to be a lot of pressure built up. 
Yeah, I'm sympathetic to players controlling their own situations and bargaining for wages, too, but at the same time, being a "legend" implicates other things. That's what I was taking issue with in your post. You can't be a "legend" if you go to Oakland and can't walk the walk that you talked about walkin'. 

He could have very well played the insanity card to get out of the Burgh. 

The Steelers came out of the Bell situation and the Brown situation poorly. They weren't going to budge, and it looks to have cost them a few years of their Super Bowl window.  

 
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Yeah, I'm sympathetic to players controlling their own situations and bargaining for wages, too, but at the same time, being a "legend" implicates other things. That's what I was taking issue with in your post. You can't be a "legend" if you go to Oakland and can't walk the walk that you talked. 

He could have very well played the insanity card to get out of the Burgh. 

The Steelers came out of the Bell situation and the Brown situation poorly. They weren't going to budge, and it looks to have cost them a few years.  
Something went very wrong in Pittsburgh and I think it's on ownership management. They had one of the best collections of offensive talent ever assembled in the history of the NFL and they pissed it away by refusing to just go all in and pay Bell/Brown. Hof QB,  top 5 all time WR, Perennial All Pro RB, great offensive line. Oh and Juju and James Conner, two of the more promising young skill players. They should be scoring 40 a game every week. 

 
TheDirtyWord said:
It’ll be interesting to see the conniption AB has when Derek Carr has one of his patented 2 target games for his WR1.
You say this because you are thinking of Cooper/Carr and that's where you started thinking wrong. 

 
Something went very wrong in Pittsburgh and I think it's on ownership management. They had one of the best collections of offensive talent ever assembled in the history of the NFL and they pissed it away by refusing to just go all in and pay Bell/Brown. Hof QB,  top 5 all time WR, Perennial All Pro RB, great offensive line. Oh and Juju and James Conner, two of the more promising young skill players. They should be scoring 40 a game every week. 
Couldn't agree more. Perhaps they felt that extensions and guaranteed money negotiated too early put them at too much of an organizational disadvantage when compared to teams like the Patriots, who operate exactly as stingy as P'Burgh does. Barnwell touched on that, which I found interesting. 

But they should be scoring forty a game right now and be in the same breath as NE and KC for sitting atop the AFC.  

 
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Just not sure what the raiders are doing. 
Stole this from a tweet last night but when you put it out this way if I was a Raiders fan the totality of these moves would actually make me pretty happy and even if you include contract Cooper and Mack were going to cost a ton this season.

Raiders give up:

Khalil Mack, Amari Cooper,  2019 3rd round, 2019 5th round ,2020 2nd round ,2020 6th round

Raiders get:

:Antonio Brown 2019 1st round 2019 1st round 2020 1st round 2020 2nd round 2020 5th round

 

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