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Antonio Brown - Out of his Head - NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS

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1 hour ago, bostonfred said:

The second difference is that brown clearly felt like there were other problems in Pittsburgh.  I don't know what they were.  He mentioned ben, he might have had a bad taste in how mouth after the bell stuff, maybe he felt like the team had committed to renegotiating but drafted early round receivers the next two years to hurt his leverage.  Maybe it's other stuff. I don't know or care really. That stuff changed the way he handled the expected holdout/trade demand, but it's not the reason for it.  

 

Agreed.  It was all about getting guaranteed money.   Holding out would have been a lot more painful than demanding a trade and the only way the Steelers were going to trade was for the situation to get so personal and out of control that bringing him back was not an option.     I don't like it but I have to give kudos to Brown and Rosenhaus for coming up with the scheme and executing it to perfection.

On the other hand I don't believe the off-the-field stuff was scripted and if I were the Raiders it would concern me that I gave $30 million guaranteed to a guy that may go off the rails at any time.

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1 hour ago, bostonfred said:

I'd rather believe you don't believe this but feel free to explain how the owners would make billions with the nfl without putting the best players on the field.  I'd imagine some people would tune in to watch Arthur Blank clothesline Kroenke, but that's not a sustainable business model. 

 

It’s pretty simple and basic really, and reality.  Players are not the product.  Please explain how you get to that the NFL is selling the player.  Slavery I guess?

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11 minutes ago, brewer said:

I'll say 90 catches, 1100 yards and 8 TDs is his floor unless he gets injured.

That sounds about right.

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Hard to believe with all the pro labor guys pretending they understand all of this better than anyone else that they have no clue how contract labor functions.

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Although probably better suited for its own thread, part of the issue with the way the systems is now is that top talent is actually up against things from the time they are drafted. First round picks have a fifth year option then two years to be franchised after that. So a guy coming into the league at 22 could be attached to one team until he is 29 without a lot of say in the matter.

Compare that to a non-first round pick that may end up being a second tier free agent (Sammy Watkins comes to mind). Since he is not an elite player, he could have a lot move ability to move around and actually could end up making way more money than one of the true studs at the WR position. To me, that doesn't make a lot of sense.

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6 minutes ago, Bronco Billy said:

Let me guess, because profits are evil?

If you're getting them using a business model that overly exploits people yes. If you make 12 billion in profits you can easily afford to share a higher percentage of revenue. You can also expand the practice squad to 50+ players. There's plenty of money to go around. 

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6 minutes ago, Anarchy99 said:

Although probably better suited for its own thread, part of the issue with the way the systems is now is that top talent is actually up against things from the time they are drafted. First round picks have a fifth year option then two years to be franchised after that. So a guy coming into the league at 22 could be attached to one team until he is 29 without a lot of say in the matter.

Compare that to a non-first round pick that may end up being a second tier free agent (Sammy Watkins comes to mind). Since he is not an elite player, he could have a lot move ability to move around and actually could end up making way more money than one of the true studs at the WR position. To me, that doesn't make a lot of sense.

So what if a stud college player doesn't enter the NFL draft?  Is there a reason we don't see this at all?  Seems like teams can sign undrafted free agents to whatever kind of deals they want.  Hmm. 

 

Edited by ghostguy123

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1 minute ago, ghostguy123 said:

So what if a stud college player doesn't enter the NFL draft?  Is there a reason we don't see this at all?  Seems like teams can sign undrafted free agents to whatever kind of deals they want.  Hmm. 

 

A couple of issues here. One, a player would need to declare that he was available to be drafted. Don't think you can then change your mind after the draft to just sign anywhere. Also, I believe there is a max teams can pay for an UDFA and the cost to retain them is dirt cheap. All this would accomplish is ensuring the player got minimum wage for multiple years with no chance to earn more (Malcolm Butler says hi). Not sure that is the way to go to try to beat the system.

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9 minutes ago, Milkman said:

If you're getting them using a business model that overly exploits people yes. If you make 12 billion in profits you can easily afford to share a higher percentage of revenue. You can also expand the practice squad to 50+ players. There's plenty of money to go around. 

 

You again seem to be confusing the size of the revenues with some arbitrary concept of “fair” while completely disregarding the percentage of gross revenues dedicated to the players (which btw the players agreed to by contract).

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Just now, Anarchy99 said:

A couple of issues here. One, a player would need to declare that he was available to be drafted. Don't think you can then change your mind after the draft to just sign anywhere. Also, I believe there is a max teams can pay for an UDFA and the cost to retain them is dirt cheap. All this would accomplish is ensuring the player got minimum wage for multiple years with no chance to earn more (Malcolm Butler says hi). Not sure that is the way to go to try to beat the system.

Started a thread on this.

So if some dude from Europe or something who looked like a stud came over here he could only be signed for a small amount?  Or some guy out of the XFL who never played college ball or declared for the draft?

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48 minutes ago, Bronco Billy said:

 

It’s pretty simple and basic really, and reality.  Players are not the product.  Please explain how you get to that the NFL is selling the player.  Slavery I guess?

This was a new and unexpected low even ignoring the last sentence.  Good luck with whatever you're doing here.

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1 hour ago, bostonfred said:

This was a new and unexpected low even ignoring the last sentence.  Good luck with whatever you're doing here.

 

Trying unsuccessfully to help your understanding, apparently.

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2 hours ago, Milkman said:

 If you make 12 billion in profits you can easily afford to share a higher percentage of revenue. There's plenty of money to go around. 

 

Just to provide you with a few facts.  Operating profit is gross profit less operating expenses, but before interest and taxes are taken.

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/packers-financials-show-that-nfl-made-billions-despite-national-anthem-controversy/amp/

 

Quote

According to financial information released by the Packers on Monday, the NFL distributed more than $8 billion in national revenue that was split among the league's 32 teams. The $8.1 billion in revenue meant that each team received roughly $255 million from the league. According to Bloomberg, the $8.1 billion was a revenue-record for the NFL and a total that was slightly up from the league's revenue total of $7.8 billion in 2016.  

The league was able to hit a record number this year due in large part to the fact that the price for the Thursday Night Football package increased substantially. The bulk of the NFL's national revenue comes from the league's TV deals, but other forms of revenue are also included in the calculations. 

The Packers annual financial statement is generally the one time each year where outsiders are able to get a closer look at how an NFL team is run from a financial standpoint. Since the Packers are a publicly owned a team, they have to reveal their financial disclosure each year. 

Besides getting a $255 million check from the NFL, the Packers also generated $199 million in local income, which is money they don't have to split with other teams. Overall, the Packers had a record $454.9 million in revenue last year. Despite that large number, the team's operating profit was only $34.1 million, according to Bloomberg.

Edited by Bronco Billy

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52 minutes ago, Bronco Billy said:

 

Just to provide you with a few facts.  Operating profit is gross profit less operating expenses, but before interest and taxes are taken.

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/packers-financials-show-that-nfl-made-billions-despite-national-anthem-controversy/amp/

 

Interesting. Since drafting AB the net worth of the Steelers has gone up nearly 1.9 billion going from 996 million to nearly 3 billion. You know that though. 

 

Up 5% last year alone. What's 5% of 2.8 billion anyway......

 

These teams are giant toys for the ultra rich. Nothing more. 

Edited by Milkman

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What is this, some sort of cyber commie convention?

It'd be more noble to argue on behalf of farm laborers in Argentina or textile workers in Thailand. 

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6 hours ago, bostonfred said:

I'd rather believe you don't believe this but feel free to explain how the owners would make billions with the nfl without putting the best players on the field.  I'd imagine some people would tune in to watch Arthur Blank clothesline Kroenke, but that's not a sustainable business model.  

The best players in the world are the ones we have access to and they change all the time.  If Brady died today another "best in the world" would pop right up by definition.  The NFL is doing just fine without Josh Gordon.  Ratings weren't affected because Calvin Johnson, Peyton Manning, and Barry Sanders retired.  And if the next AB never even got a chance to play then we'd be none the wiser for what we don't miss.

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16 hours ago, Hankmoody said:

The best players in the world are the ones we have access to and they change all the time.  If Brady died today another "best in the world" would pop right up by definition.  The NFL is doing just fine without Josh Gordon.  Ratings weren't affected because Calvin Johnson, Peyton Manning, and Barry Sanders retired.  And if the next AB never even got a chance to play then we'd be none the wiser for what we don't miss.

Right.  That's why they collectively bargain.  Because individually, players don't have much leverage. Do you remember the replacement players in 1987?  It was a disaster. 

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19 hours ago, Bronco Billy said:

 

Trying unsuccessfully to help your understanding, apparently.

I agree you've been unsuccessful but mostly because you're veering so far off topic.

I'm not arguing that the poor players deserve more money than they get or that brown was mistreated.  I don't care what he gets.  I just hate the argument that players who hold out or demand trades are the bad guys. 

The owners could permanently end all holdouts and trade demands by giving the players the right to terminate their contracts the way the teams can.  They'll obviously never allow that, right? 

So what do they allow? Hold outs. All those rules that say how many games you can miss and have it count as a year, and how much they can fine you, and so on - that stuff didn't appear in the CBA magically or by accident.  That's what the league agreed on for a remedy for someone who wants to end a bad contract.  

You can't blame the players for using the remedy in the CBA. It's the only remedy they have. 

If the team doesn't want their player to hold out or demand a trade, structure a contract in a way that doesn't reward it.  The steelers gave him a bundle of money up front, what did they expect would happen when they got to the cheap years if he kept performing at an elite level?

They could also have extended him.  The steelers went back to him and asked him to convert salary to bonus for cap purposes, because it helped the team.  But when they watched him perform as the best receiver in the nfl while his remaining years were on the cheap, they didn't offer him a raise. Which is fine, and probably a good business decision.  But the consequence of that decision is an increased risk of pushback.

Holdouts and trade demands are part of the rules the owners agreed to and a preventable consequence of teams holding firm on team friendly deals and not giving raises to their best players, in the same way that cuts are part of the rules the players agreed to.

It's absurd to get mad at a player for not accepting 12 million less than his market value because it would have appealed to your sensibilities.  Be mad at the owners for not giving him any other avenue to get paid, or the team for not doing what they needed to do to keep him.  Be mad at him for refusing to negotiate with the steelers or for airing his dirty laundry or demanding a trade instead of holding out.  That's all valid. But getting mad at him for "breaking his contract"?  No.  He did exactly what his contract allows. 

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3 minutes ago, daveR said:

I wonder what would happen if someone offered PIT a 2 & 4?

I can only wish but he's already at the Raider facility today which would make things awkward. As a side note I had no idea he could already go to their facility when the trade can't officially go down until tomorrow.

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4 minutes ago, daveR said:

I wonder what would happen if someone offered PIT a 2 & 4?

Apparently the patriots did, but it was rejected. Similar to the raiders given where in the round they pick  

That bills deal was so sweet. Ugh. 

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8 hours ago, bostonfred said:

I agree you've been unsuccessful but mostly because you're veering so far off topic.

I'm not arguing that the poor players deserve more money than they get or that brown was mistreated.  I don't care what he gets.  I just hate the argument that players who hold out or demand trades are the bad guys. 

The owners could permanently end all holdouts and trade demands by giving the players the right to terminate their contracts the way the teams can.  They'll obviously never allow that, right? 

So what do they allow? Hold outs. All those rules that say how many games you can miss and have it count as a year, and how much they can fine you, and so on - that stuff didn't appear in the CBA magically or by accident.  That's what the league agreed on for a remedy for someone who wants to end a bad contract.  

You can't blame the players for using the remedy in the CBA. It's the only remedy they have. 

If the team doesn't want their player to hold out or demand a trade, structure a contract in a way that doesn't reward it.  The steelers gave him a bundle of money up front, what did they expect would happen when they got to the cheap years if he kept performing at an elite level?

They could also have extended him.  The steelers went back to him and asked him to convert salary to bonus for cap purposes, because it helped the team.  But when they watched him perform as the best receiver in the nfl while his remaining years were on the cheap, they didn't offer him a raise. Which is fine, and probably a good business decision.  But the consequence of that decision is an increased risk of pushback.

Holdouts and trade demands are part of the rules the owners agreed to and a preventable consequence of teams holding firm on team friendly deals and not giving raises to their best players, in the same way that cuts are part of the rules the players agreed to.

It's absurd to get mad at a player for not accepting 12 million less than his market value because it would have appealed to your sensibilities.  Be mad at the owners for not giving him any other avenue to get paid, or the team for not doing what they needed to do to keep him.  Be mad at him for refusing to negotiate with the steelers or for airing his dirty laundry or demanding a trade instead of holding out.  That's all valid. But getting mad at him for "breaking his contract"?  No.  He did exactly what his contract allows. 

I'm not mad either way but think the Steelers should have let him hold out or retire. I mean they still have the cap charge and they lose the player for under market value?? This had to be an ownership decision (No GM would do that trade) I mean there was no value at all to the team except getting him out of Pittsburgh and I do think there was some value to that for the Steelers.  I mean why not let him rot at home or retire or just let him come back and be a distraction then suspended him. If he retired then even better for the Steelers I think they get cap relief if Brown would have retired. Trade or hold out they are still responsible for the 21 million dollar cap hit.

Steelers should have paid him his 2.5 million and waited till either market value was available in a trade(if ever) or send him home to retire. Bengals did that to their franchise QB and it worked out for them. The Raiders gave multiple firsts for Palmer or he would have never played again. Pretty simple. Mike Brown sent Palmer home and in an interview said we appreciate Carson for what he has done for the franchise but he has a contract we expect him to honor it or we consider him retired. He sat for 6 weeks till the Raiders acquired Carson's services for 2 first round picks and Carson flopped in Oakland and was traded to Arizona for a lot less.

Truth be told I would most likely have redone Brown's contract with more money based on performance or some guaranteed money but if that did not work he could play for the Steelers or no one at all. The only thing in the very back of my mind that really no one is talking about does AB have any legal risk or suspension risk from his off-field behavior that no one is privileged to know yet?? Most likely not. I think it's little odd how it all played out and in an interview(Rich Eisen), I heard Drew Rosenhaus very politically correct be a bit surprised that Brown was able to get this accomplished at least that is how it sounded to me. He said Brown made history which I find pretty funny considering only because the Steelers permitted history to be made.

Or did the Steelers want to do him a solid?? Not pay him and trade him for under market value so he could get a new contract?? And trade him within the AFC?? The other option is they did not want to pay him and just wanted him gone. Be gone we don't want you let someone else pay you because we really despise you. I don't think this option is very realistic.

Just puzzling but if your Brown good for you for getting it done. How can I hate a guy for making this whole charade work to become the highest paid WR in the league?  

Would never happen if I was Rooney or the Rooney family decision maker in this process but I'm not and they did make that decision. Some other sucker is going to try this with a real GM and ownership. That is the guy I feel sorry for because he will end up like Barry Sanders feeling like he has to retire because he backed himself into that corner of trade me or retire and some team is going to choose you can retire card.

Sure should be fun watching Brown, Carr, and Gruden in Oakland/Las Vegas. I'm excited to see how that all plays out. Great trade for the Raiders basically pulling down the Steelers pants and spanking that "donkey".  GO RAIDERS!!! LOL

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7 hours ago, Leeroy Jenkins said:

Apparently the patriots did, but it was rejected. Similar to the raiders given where in the round they pick  

That bills deal was so sweet. Ugh. 

Then they should offer it to the Raiders. 

The Raiders would look really good flipping their 3rd and 5th for a second and fourth, instead of idiots who sold Mack cheap only to buy Brown. 

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38 minutes ago, zeeshan2 said:

[PFT] Antonio Brown is late for his introductory press conference in Oakland.

https://twitter.com/ProFootballTalk/status/1105931987234230273

Ummmm....

@VicTafur: Brown again and again says he will hold teammates accountable. “There will be a new standard. … There will be fines. I can’t do it all in one day but we’re going to change things here.” #Raiders

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Adita was on TV before his press conference and said that heading to the game vs Oakland last year takeoff was delayed for 30 minutes because AB was late.

That's an AB problem but to me it's a bigger problem that an entire franchise would wait on a tarmac for 30 minutes for one guy running late likely just cause.  Can you imagine Bill Bellichick doing that? I'm thinking if Brady was 5 minutes late BB would be giving the "wheels up" command.  I like Tomlin, not rooting for him to go, but I am hoping he learns from some of his mistakes.

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4 hours ago, Anarchy99 said:

Patriots said to have offered a 2nd and a 4th for AB.

That’s only a few picks away from Oakland’s 3rd & 5th picks. 

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This guy has truly lost his mind. Saying yesterday that Pittsburgh will always be family and HE has no hard feelings.  Takes out billboards saying thanks.  Then says players will be held accountable with raiders. Yeah, okay bud. 

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15 hours ago, JaxBill said:

Ummmm....

@VicTafur: Brown again and again says he will hold teammates accountable. “There will be a new standard. … There will be fines. I can’t do it all in one day but we’re going to change things here.” #Raiders

 

What a db.  I’m no fan of wishing anyone to fail, but this guy is making me rethink that.

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2 hours ago, Bronco Billy said:

 

What a db.  I’m no fan of wishing anyone to fail, but this guy is making me rethink that.

Hey he told the Raiders up front that things were going to be his way.

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11 hours ago, One said:

That’s only a few picks away from Oakland’s 3rd & 5th picks. 

Right, no way you trade him to the Pats unless they give you TB. 

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7 hours ago, cloppbeast said:

Right, no way you trade him to the Pats unless they give you TB. 

If he’s such a headache and it’s not the Steelers coaches, send him to ruin the pats.

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11 hours ago, voiceofunreason said:

If he’s such a headache and it’s not the Steelers coaches, send him to ruin the pats.

Wait you're not suggesting that AB is not a headache are you?

Regardless he is still a great WR and as was pointed out earlier, the Pats 2 and 4 aren't much better than the Raiders 3 and 5

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Obvious a Pittsburgh bias but there is a lot of truth to this:

Quote

 

When it was all said and done, the Pittsburgh Steelers were able to get a trade in place to send petulant wide receiver Antonio Brown to the Oakland Raiders. The terms of the deal weren't exactly in the Steelers' favor but according to NFL reporter Ian Rapoport, this wasn't the issue.

According to Rapoport it was the ridiculous contract demands of Brown which kept other teams out of the mix. There were teams willing to give Pittsburgh better draft compensation but because they wouldn't meet the contract parameters of Brown he was never going to go there. In effect killing the deal before it could ever happen.

Ultimately this was Brown's way of getting one final shot in on the Steelers. The one team who was willing to take a chance on him coming out of college when no one else wanted him. The one team who basically threw out the rule book to let him live his life on his terms. And the one team who gave him multiple huge contracts and advances when they didn't have to. For many fans, Brown is the victim in all this but make no mistake he is not.

 

 

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14 minutes ago, Godsbrother said:

Obvious a Pittsburgh bias but there is a lot of truth to this:

 

I thought James Harrison was a piece crap, but Brown has him beat by a mile. This guy is nothing but garbage.

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45 minutes ago, Bojang0301 said:

This class individual has now attacked JuJu for no apparent reason other than jealously. Completely stable and rational person:

https://twitter.com/ab84/status/1114953676202762240?s=21

Clearly Juju infringing on AB territory was the issue....big baby....good luck Oakland.

 

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What a dilemma AB has put me in next season.  It's been a great experience as a Steeler/fantasy fan the last few years, in totality his 6 years were the best 6 years of fantasy production ever from a Steeler. Bell had some huge seasons but I feel safe saying AB was the top Steeler fantasy producer of all time or at least since I've played fantasy.  The dilemma for me is now I dislike him as much as any player in the game and would actively root against his success more then any player in the game except for the massive issue staring at me in that I remain invested in him in dynasty and likely continue that investment in redraft because I think he's a solid value right now. This went from a totally fun experience where fantasy and real life merged to a conflicted self serving interest. What a bummer.

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