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Antonio Brown - Out of his Head - Out of the League

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3 minutes ago, Foosball God said:

AB has never been accused of not being a hard worker.  I think when he gets traded he's going to bust his ### to prove that he's just that good and he wasn't just a product of the Steeler's system.

Except week 17.  And in subsequent reports leaking out during this final dispute.

How much of the latter is spin to make the team look good is open for debate, but if it is true, it seems AB has moved away from the hard worker reputation he had early in his career.

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17 minutes ago, Steeler said:

The new team will never lose another game as long as AB is on the team!

Seriously though, AB is an addition on the field, no question about it.  Also pretty obvious is that there is some off field and locker room risk associated with acquiring AB given his antics over the last year or so.  As long as AB is happy and getting his stats, the new QB and team should be better with him than without him.  "As long as he is happy" is a big if/risk IMO.

This is what I was looking for. I understand steeler fans and even AB owner being apprehensive about a move.  But all the posts saying they didn't want him on their team made me wonder.

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6 minutes ago, Arodin said:

Except week 17.  And in subsequent reports leaking out during this final dispute.

How much of the latter is spin to make the team look good is open for debate, but if it is true, it seems AB has moved away from the hard worker reputation he had early in his career.

One incident doesn't mean he's suddenly not a hard worker.  From what it sounds like AB ran a bad route, or at least a route that Rothlisberger didn't want him to run and forced the coaches to take Brown off the field.  Brown had enough and decided he was done.  I think he made the wrong choice, and I think he hasn't made very good choices subsequently, but I don't know that anyone has seen enough to say he isn't a hard worker anymore.

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14 minutes ago, Foosball God said:

One incident doesn't mean he's suddenly not a hard worker.  From what it sounds like AB ran a bad route, or at least a route that Rothlisberger didn't want him to run and forced the coaches to take Brown off the field.  Brown had enough and decided he was done.  I think he made the wrong choice, and I think he hasn't made very good choices subsequently, but I don't know that anyone has seen enough to say he isn't a hard worker anymore.

I think that is only a reasonable conclusion if you discount the reports of skipping training camp, showing up late on game days, missing meetings...

Admittedly it may be sensible to discount those, given the circumstances in which they came out, but that’s part of what I’m pointing to in raising the possibility that he isn’t the tireless worker he once was.

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2 minutes ago, Arodin said:

I think that is only a reasonable conclusion if you discount the reports of skipping training camp, showing up late on game days, missing meetings...

Admittedly it may be sensible to discount those, given the circumstances in which they came out, but that’s part of what I’m pointing to in raising the possibility that he isn’t the tireless worker he once was.

Agree that as a general manager I'd have to weigh that as a risk, I just don't think it is a slam dunk observation at this point.

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1 hour ago, Foosball God said:

Also, while I don't think AB is going about this the right way at all, it does sound like Ben Rothlisberger is a real ##### that thinks his ☠️ doesn't stink

Maybe but it seems there has been this narrative that Ben never blames himself and always throws his teammates under the bus.  Anyone that actually listens to what he says after games knows this is not true.    There is an article out now that lists them but the point is he routinely takes blame for losses.

I have no idea of what goes on during practices and in the locker room but publicly I can only recall a handful or times he called out specific teammates (although he used to put blame on former OC Todd Haley quite a bit, there is no denying that  -- those two did not get along).  

He probably was out of line when he said that AB ran a crappy route but I have a feeling he was getting sick and tied of AB's sideline antics.

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If/when Brown is dealt, am I alone in being worried about JuJu's fantasy value? Brown has commanded double teams, and his replacement will likely be either Washington(who looked lost as a rookie) or Switzer who is more of a slot guy, which is also where JuJu excels.

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10 minutes ago, travdogg said:

If/when Brown is dealt, am I alone in being worried about JuJu's fantasy value? Brown has commanded double teams, and his replacement will likely be either Washington(who looked lost as a rookie) or Switzer who is more of a slot guy, which is also where JuJu excels.

No, I don't think so. There was enough volume in Pittsburgh's offense within the passing game to support two top ten guys. JuJu will be drawing all the doubles now. It's like Golladay when Tate got traded and Jones went down. He didn't quite have the athleticism to compensate for the doubles he saw the rest of the year. 

We'll see about JuJu. 

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53 minutes ago, Godsbrother said:

Maybe but it seems there has been this narrative that Ben never blames himself and always throws his teammates under the bus.  Anyone that actually listens to what he says after games knows this is not true.    There is an article out now that lists them but the point is he routinely takes blame for losses.

I have no idea of what goes on during practices and in the locker room but publicly I can only recall a handful or times he called out specific teammates (although he used to put blame on former OC Todd Haley quite a bit, there is no denying that  -- those two did not get along).  

He probably was out of line when he said that AB ran a crappy route but I have a feeling he was getting sick and tied of AB's sideline antics.

They probably both have some growing up to do.

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Just now, Foosball God said:

They probably both have some growing up to do.

They're in their thirties. Ben is in his mid-thirties. Not sure how much growing up is left to do at this point.  

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Just now, rockaction said:

They're in their thirties. Ben is in his mid-thirties. Not sure how much growing up is left to do at this point.  

They are acting like kids.

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Just now, Foosball God said:

They are acting like kids.

True. I don't disagree with that. I guess there is a lot of room for growth, as it were.  

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Ben isn't perfect.  And Tomlin let AB get away with too much for too long.  But the majority of this AB drama is caused by him, like 95% of it. 

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2 hours ago, Foosball God said:

AB has never been accused of not being a hard worker.  I think when he gets traded he's going to bust his ### to prove that he's just that good and he wasn't just a product of the Steeler's system.

I think this is one of the main reasons he wants out - I think he wants to prove that he can be one if the (if not THE best) WR in the game on a different team.

I remember someone calling him out during the season saying something to the effect that he'd be nothing without Ben and the Steeler system, and his trolly on Twitter it IG was 'Trade me and let's find out'. I think from that moment on, he really started to wonder.

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Irresponsible speculation - Will be traded to Detroit for a 3rd round pick. 

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7 minutes ago, Wingnut said:

I think this is one of the main reasons he wants out - I think he wants to prove that he can be one if the (if not THE best) WR in the game on a different team.

I remember someone calling him out during the season saying something to the effect that he'd be nothing without Ben and the Steeler system, and his trolly on Twitter it IG was 'Trade me and let's find out'. I think from that moment on, he really started to wonder.

I think it will depend on a lot of factors. He could get traded to a terrible team. He might not end up with a QB not on the same level as Roethlisberger. He could have an OC that is in over his head. Less accomplished WR's across the league could sign for way more money than Brown is due to make. If Brown still isn't happy, I am not sure he will automatically kill himself if ends up in a bad situation or if he doesn't get his contract tweaked. He could end up on a team like the Raiders with a rookie QB (if they move on from Carr).

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24 minutes ago, jabarony said:

Irresponsible speculation - Will be traded to Detroit for a 3rd round pick. 

I wish.

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2 hours ago, travdogg said:

If/when Brown is dealt, am I alone in being worried about JuJu's fantasy value? Brown has commanded double teams, and his replacement will likely be either Washington(who looked lost as a rookie) or Switzer who is more of a slot guy, which is also where JuJu excels.

The Steelers were using JuJu in the slot or on the outside depending on which CB they thought would give him the best matchup - I don't think that will change next year - it's smart to put your best WR (in 2019) in the best position to succeed.

Plus, Ben is going to get JuJu 400 targets in 2019 year to prove AB ain't all that :lol:  

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4 hours ago, menobrown said:

AB is one of the best WR's in the game and would be a tremendous assistance and up the fantasy value of any QB. Your QB literally might not be able to do better.  Maybe I'm not understanding the questions because this should not be in question.

could you rephrase that.

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Pure speculation, but having been around many practices in football and basketball (not at the pro level) I wonder if AB getting yelled at by Big Ben was due to an adjustment to a play call for the upcoming opponent that AB did not do.  And it just so happens to this adjustment was put in at one of the meetings AB missed or was late or was not paying attention in.  It sounds like AB was doing a lot missing/late/(probably not paying attention) in meetings.  It clearly appears AB (like several elite WR of past) do not consider the team meetings to be all that important or he would never miss/be late for one.  I have seen this happen many times at the college level and I have no problem with the coach or QB calling the player out on not making the adjustment on the route if your not going to be at/pay attention at the team meetings.

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It's about the money. Brown is 30 and under contract for 3 years. He would be 33 when he hits the market again. Brown and his agent orchestrated all of this to get traded and rip up that contract to get a new contract. I would pull a Mike Brown on AB. You want to sit then sit you play in Pittsburgh or nowhere. Mike Brown did that with Carson Palmer and Palmer sat at home for 6 weeks and Oakland gave up 2 first rounders for Palmer. I would take nothing less for Brown or he can retire. Pittsburgh lets Brown do this they set a tone for the next diva to do the same thing. Sometimes you have to be willing to take a hit to protect your future. Brown has no leverage and seems like people feel that he does. Bell is a different situation altogether. He was a tagged player at age 26 decided not to play and gave up 14 million to do so for the chance to hit the market and recoup what he lost. Brown is under contract for 3 years and is 30 big difference

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1 hour ago, osubuckeyeman said:

 

It's about the money. Brown is 30 and under contract for 3 years. He would be 33 when he hits the market again. Brown and his agent orchestrated all of this to get traded and rip up that contract to get a new contract. I would pull a Mike Brown on AB. You want to sit then sit you play in Pittsburgh or nowhere. Mike Brown did that with Carson Palmer and Palmer sat at home for 6 weeks and Oakland gave up 2 first rounders for Palmer. I would take nothing less for Brown or he can retire. Pittsburgh lets Brown do this they set a tone for the next diva to do the same thing. Sometimes you have to be willing to take a hit to protect your future. Brown has no leverage and seems like people feel that he does. Bell is a different situation altogether. He was a tagged player at age 26 decided not to play and gave up 14 million to do so for the chance to hit the market and recoup what he lost. Brown is under contract for 3 years and is 30 big difference

I don't disagree that brown and his agent planned ahead on this, but

1) setting precedent with lev bell didn't prevent this, so the value of precedent is questionable. 

2) if they planned on pushing his way out after he got his guaranteed money, shame on the steelers for structuring the contract in a way that rewards it.  This move should never come as a surprise on a front loaded contract. 

3) front loaded contracts generally have some kind of escalator, roster bonus,  workout bonus, option clause - something that rewards the player for staying after the front load is paid.  If this contract didn't have that, it was likely structured as a longer deal to split the guaranteed money out over a longer period of time for salary cap purposes. The salary in the later years provides a baseline for a contract for later - if his play slipped, he'd still earn that much unless they cut him or threatened to cut him if he didn't take a pay cut.  If he continued to play like the best receiver in the league, he could renegotiate at this point.  

He's earned out played these "lower" salary years, so it should be absolutely zero surprise that he wants to renegotiate.  Which leads us to

4) the steelers botched their locker room, allowing the bell situation to blow up, players to get frustrated with ben, and all of Brown's weird behavior. For brown to want out without even seriously discussing a contract - that's just terrible management of their star talent.  

I am not saying brown is the good guy here but it's completely unfair to act like he's the only bad guy.  The steelers flubbed their championship window with the killer Bs harder than any team since the vince young dream team eagles. 

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8 hours ago, bostonfred said:

  The steelers flubbed their championship window with the killer Bs harder than any team since the vince young dream team eagles. 

The killer B's rarely played together on the same field at the same time.

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This whole situation smacks of NBA trade demands.  Is that where the NFL is headed?

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If you have three years left on your deal, being a malcontent is the only way to slither out of an underpaid contract and securing a new one. That’s the only way. Playing nice doesn’t stand a chance.  AB’s mentor, Terrell Owens,  knows this and is advising his pupil wi$ely. The owners will regret this decision to capitulate AB when the new norm becomes a handful of players annually throwing up their skirts to secure paydays they’re not entitled to. Do you really think AB cares about the Steelers negative cap implications? 

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1 hour ago, Edgar said:

If you have three years left on your deal, being a malcontent is the only way to slither out of an underpaid contract and securing a new one. That’s the only way. Playing nice doesn’t stand a chance.  AB’s mentor, Terrell Owens,  knows this and is advising his pupil wi$ely. The owners will regret this decision to capitulate AB when the new norm becomes a handful of players annually throwing up their skirts to secure paydays they’re not entitled to. Do you really think AB cares about the Steelers negative cap implications? 

Just read a piece from Mike Lombardi on  the Athletic and wrote something I'd not heard anyone else say previously.  Per him, AB has a player option to void the last year of his contract.

I'd imagine even if AB was not squawking for more or guaranteed money and was willing to just fulfill his current contract this would lower his trade value a little since without renegotiating him you only control him for two more years.  All probably a moot point when he renegotiates with his new team.

In terms of this becoming a blueprint for players to follow in the future I'd say it's possible but a lot of that will depend on what kind of contract AB gets on his new team. Julio is expected to have  his contract redone and land somewhere around $20M over next 3 years is early speculation . Where AB's likely extension with his new team lands relative to that contract could either be motivation or a cautionary tale for any player looking to go the "AB route" in the future.

I still don't think money is what led to all of this, but I do think if right now everything was peachy with AB and the Steelers they'd have run into serious holdout issues if Julio landed that deal and Steelers were not willing to redo AB's deal.  I don't think AB ever intended to show up on time for the 2019 season without his current contract getting reworked, and I don't mean just converting salary to bonus like they did last year.

 

 

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Three teams have already contacted the Steelers about Antonio Brown according to Steelers GM Kevin Colbert

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4 hours ago, Edgar said:

If you have three years left on your deal, being a malcontent is the only way to slither out of an underpaid contract and securing a new one. That’s the only way. Playing nice doesn’t stand a chance.  AB’s mentor, Terrell Owens,  knows this and is advising his pupil wi$ely. The owners will regret this decision to capitulate AB when the new norm becomes a handful of players annually throwing up their skirts to secure paydays they’re not entitled to. Do you really think AB cares about the Steelers negative cap implications? 

 

Does anyone else find it impossible to take someone seriously when they insist that getting paid $60M over 4 years, including $19M guaranteed is being underpaid?

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2 minutes ago, Bronco Billy said:

 

Does anyone else find it impossible to take someone seriously when they insist that getting paid $60M over 4 years, including $19M guaranteed is being underpaid?

I would hesitate to use the phrase underpaid but it's for sure a lot less then he'd get on get on the open market so in that sense he is. That WR market got reset last year.

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2 hours ago, menobrown said:

I would hesitate to use the phrase underpaid but it's for sure a lot less then he'd get on get on the open market so in that sense he is. That WR market got reset last year.

Virtually every position gets reset every year. If you want top dollar, sign 1 year deals every year. If you want security, sign 3+ year deals. If you want your cake and to eat it too:

Step 1: sign the long term deal, gather the signing bonus.

Step 2:  squawk your way off your team and to someone who will pay you another 3+  

Step 3: Profit

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2 hours ago, Godsbrother said:

Three teams have already contacted the Steelers about Antonio Brown according to Steelers GM Kevin Colbert

Until they mention the actual 3 teams, who knows.

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1 minute ago, Edgar said:

Virtually every position gets reset every year. If you want top dollar, sign 1 year deals every year. If you want security, sign 3+ year deals. 

Sure not arguing that but however you want to slice his contract is less then what he'd get on the open market. Falcons are going to redo Julio's deal and if they did not he'd have likely held out.

That's why I don't think this is about money. If that was the case he had all off-season to work on a restructure or hold out. I have not nor at any point thought this was about money, but if you are 31, underpaid by current market price,  and are about to get traded now would be the exact time to try and demand more guarantees/money.

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18 hours ago, bostonfred said:

I don't disagree that brown and his agent planned ahead on this, but

1) setting precedent with lev bell didn't prevent this, so the value of precedent is questionable. 

2) if they planned on pushing his way out after he got his guaranteed money, shame on the steelers for structuring the contract in a way that rewards it.  This move should never come as a surprise on a front loaded contract. 

3) front loaded contracts generally have some kind of escalator, roster bonus,  workout bonus, option clause - something that rewards the player for staying after the front load is paid.  If this contract didn't have that, it was likely structured as a longer deal to split the guaranteed money out over a longer period of time for salary cap purposes. The salary in the later years provides a baseline for a contract for later - if his play slipped, he'd still earn that much unless they cut him or threatened to cut him if he didn't take a pay cut.  If he continued to play like the best receiver in the league, he could renegotiate at this point.  

He's earned out played these "lower" salary years, so it should be absolutely zero surprise that he wants to renegotiate.  Which leads us to

4) the steelers botched their locker room, allowing the bell situation to blow up, players to get frustrated with ben, and all of Brown's weird behavior. For brown to want out without even seriously discussing a contract - that's just terrible management of their star talent.  

I am not saying brown is the good guy here but it's completely unfair to act like he's the only bad guy.  The steelers flubbed their championship window with the killer Bs harder than any team since the vince young dream team eagles. 

Just let him sit. Also, AB has provided enough to be suspended by the team for conduct detrimental. Just saying he would play for the Steelers or nobody for as long as possible if I was the decision maker OR some other team is willing to pay a ridiculous price to make me willing to do the deal. I would not care if he retires. If he decided to sit out the season without retiring I would fine him every day permitted. I would also let him know it's not personal and it's not. It's just business. He is under contract for terms he agreed too. You don't like that then sit and get fined or retire. I may add some incentives in your deal based on your production but nothing is guaranteed. 

My point was the Bell and Brown situation is different. Bell was not under contract. He was tagged and elected to not sign which is his right.  He passed on 14 million which he freely gave up. I can respect that because it's his choice. The Steelers could tag him again if they wanted. I would not because it's not needed and Bell is not needed. Connor played more than adequately and plenty of backs can produce who are cheaper why would the Steelers pay more for Bell?? The Steelers decided he was not worth the money Bell wanted end of story. 

These 2 situations are not remotely the same in my mind.

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48 minutes ago, Edgar said:

Virtually every position gets reset every year. If you want top dollar, sign 1 year deals every year. If you want security, sign 3+ year deals. If you want your cake and to eat it too:

Step 1: sign the long term deal, gather the signing bonus.

Step 2:  squawk your way off your team and to someone who will pay you another 3+  

Step 3: Profit

Revis.

Edited by voiceofunreason
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23 minutes ago, menobrown said:

Sure not arguing that but however you want to slice his contract is less then what he'd get on the open market. Falcons are going to redo Julio's deal and if they did not he'd have likely held out.

That's why I don't think this is about money. If that was the case he had all off-season to work on a restructure or hold out. I have not nor at any point thought this was about money, but if you are 31, underpaid by current market price,  and are about to get traded now would be the exact time to try and demand more guarantees/money.

AB forces his way out, gets paid again and this doesn’t smell at all orchestrated to you? With Terrell Freakin Owens in his ear?

How magnificently convenient for AB!

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33 minutes ago, Edgar said:

Virtually every position gets reset every year. If you want top dollar, sign 1 year deals every year. If you want security, sign 3+ year deals. If you want your cake and to eat it too:

Step 1: sign the long term deal, gather the signing bonus.

Step 2:  squawk your way off your team and to someone who will pay you another 3+  

Step 3: Profit

He signed a 5 year deal that included two high price years up front and 3 lower price years later.  Both sides fully intended for him to play those first 3 years. 

If he'd underperformed he'd have been asked to take less money or be cut. 

If he'd performed at the level of those remaining 3 years, neither side would have done anything because his contract would have been about right. 

If he overperformed, he'd ask for more money or a holdout/trade. 

It's not the same thing as signing a 1 or 2 year deal.  Both sides benefit from those extra years. The team gets to spread his guaranteed money out and the player gets some protection because the team is unlikely to cut him in year 3 if he gets hurt or has a good but not great season in year 2. 

Both the team and the player know how this works going in.  If the team didn't want him to do this, they could have put a year 3 option, but they chose not to because it makes it riskier and more difficult for him to do this.  That's how they choose to do business, and it's consistent with their build through the draft and sign from within approach.  The cost of doing business that way is that sometimes players do this.  They know this.  The players know this.  The agents know this.  It's only the media and fans who clutch their pearls and act like this is unexpected.  

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Just now, Edgar said:

AB forces his way out, gets paid again and this doesn’t smell at all orchestrated to you? With Terrell Freakin Owens in his ear?

How magnificently convenient for AB!

No because if getting paid was his main goal he'd not be acting such a fool.  I outlined this in an earlier response to you today that I don't think what AB is doing will be a blueprint for anyone to follow because I think his actions will prohibit from seeking the compensation he'd get if he handled his business more professionally. 

I think you are going overboard on TO being in his ear, and not just you but other people. He talks to Jerry Rice a lot as well.

I do think his actions lately are in fact orchestrated but that's to achieve his main goal, he just wants out of Pittsburgh.

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6 minutes ago, bostonfred said:

He signed a 5 year deal that included two high price years up front and 3 lower price years later.  Both sides fully intended for him to play those first 3 years. 

If he'd underperformed he'd have been asked to take less money or be cut. 

If he'd performed at the level of those remaining 3 years, neither side would have done anything because his contract would have been about right. 

If he overperformed, he'd ask for more money or a holdout/trade. 

It's not the same thing as signing a 1 or 2 year deal.  Both sides benefit from those extra years. The team gets to spread his guaranteed money out and the player gets some protection because the team is unlikely to cut him in year 3 if he gets hurt or has a good but not great season in year 2. 

Both the team and the player know how this works going in.  If the team didn't want him to do this, they could have put a year 3 option, but they chose not to because it makes it riskier and more difficult for him to do this.  That's how they choose to do business, and it's consistent with their build through the draft and sign from within approach.  The cost of doing business that way is that sometimes players do this.  They know this.  The players know this.  The agents know this.  It's only the media and fans who clutch their pearls and act like this is unexpected.  

I get what you're saying. I'm not shocked at all.  My main point is that the Steelers hold all the cards. AB will get traded if the Steelers want a trade to happen. I would make it very clear a first round pick is just the starting point of any negotiation and if someone wants to overpay for Brown then sure I would listen.  The announcement that the team has been contacted by 3 teams is just creating urgency and market value increase technique not uncommon for any business might be true or might not be. Would not shock me at all to see Brown not traded by the March deadline everyone believes a deal needs to be made by 2.5 million is not a lot of money in the big scheme but should we reach that point could be very interesting. I fully expect this to get ugly and if it doesn't the Steelers were happy with the compensation. I still think it's going to get worse for Brown and the Steelers.

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33 minutes ago, menobrown said:

No because if getting paid was his main goal he'd not be acting such a fool.  I outlined this in an earlier response to you today that I don't think what AB is doing will be a blueprint for anyone to follow because I think his actions will prohibit from seeking the compensation he'd get if he handled his business more professionally. 

I think you are going overboard on TO being in his ear, and not just you but other people. He talks to Jerry Rice a lot as well.

I do think his actions lately are in fact orchestrated but that's to achieve his main goal, he just wants out of Pittsburgh.

Acting a fool is the only way to get out from under his contract. Do you think he’d get his way if he asked nicely? 

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14 minutes ago, Edgar said:

Acting a fool is the only way to get out from under his contract. Do you think he’d get his way if he asked nicely? 

Yes

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10 minutes ago, Edgar said:

Acting a fool is the only way to get out from under his contract. Do you think he’d get his way if he asked nicely? 

agreed, he is doing everything to force his way out of pitt. To the degree of trying to just trying to get released (which obviously doesn't happen). But if the steelers wanted a 2nd before all of his circus antics, maybe they will take a 4th or 5th at this point to get rid of the headache. Personally, I'm with OSUBuckeyeMan, I'd make his life a living hell if i were the steelers. The problem really boils down to that the steelers hold all the cards. You need to make sure the steelers get what they want, then brown gets what he wants(BIG guaranteed money), then you get a 31 year old WR (best in the league the last 6 years) with whatever(if any) headaches he brings with him. Lots of hoops to jump through, but someone will inevitably do it. Arizona, SF, Buff, NYJ? If I'm the steelers, i dont ship him to a contender. I'd take a lesser pick from a rebuilding team willing to give him the contract he wants, just to spite him for how he has acted. 

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35 minutes ago, Edgar said:

Acting a fool is the only way to get out from under his contract. Do you think he’d get his way if he asked nicely? 

 

You think he’s being brilliant.  Let’s just see what his next contract looks like first.  He’s done a pretty good job poisoning the well.

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2 hours ago, Edgar said:

Acting a fool is the only way to get out from under his contract. Do you think he’d get his way if he asked nicely? 

While it's not inaccurate to say acting like a crazy person will get him out of his contract, it also prevents him from being traded and reduces the value of a new contract. 

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If the Raiders, Jets, or Cardinals trade high future picks for AB it will be the dumbest move in those organizations' history.  I'm shocked people are even speculating that a rebuilding team is giving up their top 5 or 10 1st rounder to get AB. 

I don't see the Steelers trading him for any less than a 1st. Eating 20 million in dead cap at the end of their win now window isn't worth a 3rd rounder. 

Edited by kittenmittens

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