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Antonio Brown WR - PIT

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19 hours ago, Dr. Dan said:

Well... teams can suspend players and not pay them, as PHI did to TO. "Conduct detrimental to the team." So technically teams can just choose to suspend you and not pay you. Not trying to be picky here... but when I read your post I felt like you were implying they have to be suspended from the commissioner's office, and the team has no say really. 

That was before the new CBA I think.

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19 hours ago, Dr. Dan said:

Well... teams can suspend players and not pay them, as PHI did to TO. "Conduct detrimental to the team." So technically teams can just choose to suspend you and not pay you. Not trying to be picky here... but when I read your post I felt like you were implying they have to be suspended from the commissioner's office, and the team has no say really. 

While this is true, I'm pretty sure they can't suspend a player retro-actively.  They'd have had to announce this prior to the game, not in a press conference after the fact.

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Just heard on the radio that AB is considered by teammates to be the #1 hardest working player on the team. (hearsay but whatever)

The day the team MVP award winner was announced was just after the game where AB posted 184 yards and 2 TD's.

The award was given to Shuster/Smith. 

Maybe just bad timing but sounds like a real "FU" from the coaching staff and whomever else votes for this sillyness.

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1 hour ago, Godsbrother said:

I was just disputing your statement that it wasn't a big game.   Since they ultimately missed the playoffs it doesn't matter much now but at the time the team was in a must-win situation against the New England Patriots.

I'd rather not debate the definition of what a "Big Game" is but one could argue that the week 1 Browns game was a pretty big game as well.

But for the sake of discussion, if we compare the Patriots week 15 game and all of the other "must win" games, playoffs, win and in scenarios, etc ...

I think you would find Tomlin's track record not too pretty good as of the last decade or so.

But he is the definition of a players coach. Just the opposite of the guy in NE. So the team likes him (except for Rothelisburger - just my opinion)

As a Pats fan, I hope the team doesn't fire him.

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1 hour ago, Bossman said:

Just heard on the radio that AB is considered by teammates to be the #1 hardest working player on the team. (hearsay but whatever)

The day the team MVP award winner was announced was just after the game where AB posted 184 yards and 2 TD's.

The award was given to Shuster/Smith. 

Maybe just bad timing but sounds like a real "FU" from the coaching staff and whomever else votes for this sillyness.

I always assumed the players voted on awards like this.

In fact, just did a quick google search and found

https://www.cleveland.com/steelers/2018/12/juju-smith-schuster-voted-steelers-team-mvp.html

Quote

"My teammates and people in my locker room voted for me," Smith-Schuster said. "It means a lot that they have my back."

 

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13 hours ago, voiceofunreason said:

How babied do you want them to be? You can’t name someone the mvp because others will get their feelings hurt. This pc stuff is getting crazy.

Football is the ultimate TEAM sport. To single out any one player on the team as "most valuable" is a ridiculous concept to begin with.

Regarding the "babying" of these guys... NFL (and NBA) athletes seem (to me) to be the most mentally fragile humans on the planet. It amazes me how thin the skin is on these guys. And in that regard, the cons outweigh the pros by a wide margin for naming one as being the most valuable.

To be clear... I find both to be completely silly.

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25 minutes ago, Dizzy said:

Football is the ultimate TEAM sport. To single out any one player on the team as "most valuable" is a ridiculous concept to begin with.

 

While I agree it's silly it was never a problem until AB didn't win again (he's already won it 3 or 4 times).  

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3 minutes ago, Godsbrother said:

While I agree it's silly it was never a problem until AB didn't win again (he's already won it 3 or 4 times).  

If it was a different position he probably wouldn't have said anything.  I sense a lot of jealousy of Smith-Shuster from Brown.

Edited by JohnnyU
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1 hour ago, Dizzy said:

Football is the ultimate TEAM sport. To single out any one player on the team as "most valuable" is a ridiculous concept to begin with.

Regarding the "babying" of these guys... NFL (and NBA) athletes seem (to me) to be the most mentally fragile humans on the planet. It amazes me how thin the skin is on these guys. And in that regard, the cons outweigh the pros by a wide margin for naming one as being the most valuable.

To be clear... I find both to be completely silly.

Brady did his weekly presser this week and made it a point to state that for these playoff games, every player has to be at their best ...

and no one aspect of the team (offense / defense / ST) or any one player, can win these games.

Just standard "Team first" speak ... but yeah, seems to fly in the face of MVP "Best player on the Team" awards being discussed in PIT.

There was once a time, way back when, when starters were introduced individually for the Super Bowl ... and probably to some extent the home team for many reg season and playoff games.

Then one Super Bowl team decided to run on the field as a unit. Unprecedented at the time.

Now that seems to be the norm. These individual awards are silly and probably need to end.

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1 hour ago, Godsbrother said:

While I agree it's silly it was never a problem until AB didn't win again (he's already won it 3 or 4 times).  

And I can guarantee that this did not sit well with a Le'Veon Bell... guaranteed... whether it is in the open or not.

Childish, yes... but simple fact is you've got a mix of man-sized children overly concerned with their "brand"... some are easily offended, and some (Big Ben) take every opportunity to poke these guys and stir the #### pot.

Edited by Dizzy

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6 hours ago, Bossman said:

 

 

Meno says the only way he misses a check is if he's suspended.

.

Because it is undeniably true. Well I"d add on caveat and say I don't know the rules on if a player passed away.

I'm sure people are bored with this back and forth so I'll try and make this quick. If AB did not show up for the game the Steelers could have fined him(not an arbitrary amount but amount not to exceed CBA limits) and he could have faced a suspension that would impact his future pay next year if he is still under team control.  That is only financial means the Steeler's would have controlled had they not suspended AB prior to week 17's kickoff.

Things like this have already happened in the NFL. Timmons was last one I recall. Went AWOL, missed a game , got suspended and sat out another game. So one game he no showed and one game he got suspended. He lost ONE game check, not the game he no showed, the game he got suspended.

 

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Lots of reasonable deductions happening here and they all point to a significant problem.  We know what is generally important to players - being paid, fame. individual and team success etc and you can tick all those boxes with AB. Being insufficiently "appreciated" just sounds like a child who wants to see how far they can push "mom and dad" purely for the sport of it. That's a bad situation for a team in a window to win. Sure Pitt can take things away from him but the effectiveness of that is contingent on him actually caring about the things they can take away.

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Rappaport reporting this morning that sources say the Steelers are willing to listen to offers.

However, he also wrote:

After canvassing a handful of rival general managers about Brown, two points become clear: the first is, the Steelers will not give him away, ensuring they will ask for a lot. Two GMs believe the price would be a first-round pick, while another pegged it as multiple high picks.

The other point is they've dealt with similar issues for many of their talented players that perhaps they are able to smooth this over before the start of the 2019 season. One rival decision maker said, "Watch this get calm, and they'll figure it out. It's what they do."

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Not excusing him, but this does possibly shed some light on his antics if you believe this article, which I do. https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2019/01/05/report-ben-criticized-brown-in-meetings-wanted-him-off-the-practice-field/

I still think he needs to get his head checked, and I mean that for real.  This has a bit of a Ballers season 3 Ricky Jerret feel to it.

 

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Quote

ESPN's Chris Mortensen reports there is a "high probability" Antonio Brown is traded.

Brown is due a $2.5 million roster bonus on March 17, so the Steelers will press to get the deal done before then. Trading Brown will cost the Steelers $20.2 million against the 2019 salary cap, but some of that will be negated by the $14.5 million cap credit they will receive because of Le'Veon Bell's holdout. Still, it is a large price to pay to not have one of the best receivers in the league. The Steelers should do everything they can to resolve this situation before resorting to a trade.

Source: ESPNNFL on Twitter 

Jan 6 - 3:04 PM

 

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14 hours ago, irish eyes said:

Trade him to the worst team possible.  This crap is beyond ridiculous. 

Yeah, making a trade with the primary intent being to punish the player is a smart decision🙄.

Although this franchise doesn’t have a recent track record of making smart decisions; they gave up over $14M in cap space in ‘18 because of the Bell fiasco, now they look to be willing to give up $21M in ‘19.  They have a franchise QB whose career is winding down & the conference bully (NE) looks to be ready to be knocked off, and they are wasting their chances because they can’t make the right decisions.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Bayhawks said:

Yeah, making a trade with the primary intent being to punish the player is a smart decision🙄.

Although this franchise doesn’t have a recent track record of making smart decisions; they gave up over $14M in cap space in ‘18 because of the Bell fiasco, now they look to be willing to give up $21M in ‘19.  They have a franchise QB whose career is winding down & the conference bully (NE) looks to be ready to be knocked off, and they are wasting their chances because they can’t make the right decisions.

 

 

 

They only person who gave up $14M in  2018 is Bell, Steelers at least can carry that over.

They are also not giving up $21M in 2019 if they trade Brown. That's a sunk cost. They are actually gaining cap room if they move him, not enough cap room to make up for the loss of the player, but trading Brown is a very minor net cap gain for 2019, fairly major next two seasons.

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2 hours ago, kittenmittens said:

This is like when the Giants were shopping ODB... Not going to happen. 

I'm with Mort and was before his report. While I still think AB could smooth this over if he wants to I just don't think he does, I think he's getting traded and felt that way ever since Tomlin's press conference and AB's actions during that press conference.

In one very big respect AB could have a bigger market then Odell and be easier to trade. Odell had one year left on his deal so anyone trading for him then had to work out a costly extension. AB on the other hand is signed up at what would be a relative bargain of 3 years at $36M.

Of course Odell is younger and not sure on the grand scale of things which one is considered to be more of a headache so other factors exist, just pointing out one big reason why AB might be more attractive to teams then Odell.

 

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2 hours ago, kittenmittens said:

This is like when the Giants were shopping ODB... Not going to happen. 

more like Gordon will never be signed by the Patriots

and then he did

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I think the Steelers will bring AB in and try to smooth things over the issues he has.  If things go poorly they'll try to move him in a trade   

The one thing I do not expect is for them to have a fire sale or cut him outright.  If they can't get decent return then all parties are just going to have to put up with each other.

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4 hours ago, menobrown said:

 

They only person who gave up $14M in  2018 is Bell, Steelers at least can carry that over.

They are also not giving up $21M in 2019 if they trade Brown. That's a sunk cost. They are actually gaining cap room if they move him, not enough cap room to make up for the loss of the player, but trading Brown is a very minor net cap gain for 2019, fairly major next two seasons.

They were able to spend $14M less in 2018 because of how they mishandled the bell situation.  

And they ARE giving up $21M in 2019 cap if they cut/trade him.  They will have $21M less in cap room, and no player production in exchange.  Sure it’s a sunk cost, but it should be a sunk cost where they’d be getting All-Pro WR production in exchange.  

And, sure they will get some cap relief afterwards, but then who will their QB be?  A fading Big Ben?  Mason Rudolph?  Josh Dobbs?  Some veteran re-tread?  A rookie?  

Face it, the Steelers screwed up Bell and maybe with AB, and because if it, they are in the process of wasting a few of the last prime years of their franchise QB.  Most teams don’t get two in a row.  For every SF, GB, or Indy, there’s a Dallas, Denver, ‘80’s Pitt, Mia, etc.

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8 hours ago, Bayhawks said:

Yeah, making a trade with the primary intent being to punish the player is a smart decision🙄. 

Although this franchise doesn’t have a recent track record of making smart decisions; they gave up over $14M in cap space in ‘18 because of the Bell fiasco, now they look to be willing to give up $21M in ‘19.  They have a franchise QB whose career is winding down & the conference bully (NE) looks to be ready to be knocked off, and they are wasting their chances because they can’t make the right decisions. 

 

 

They got the $14M back for 2019, and they don't have to "give up" $21M for AB - he's already counting over $22M against the cap today, so they'll actually save a few bucks by moving him.

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24 minutes ago, Bayhawks said:

They were able to spend $14M less in 2018 because of how they mishandled the bell situation.  

And they ARE giving up $21M in 2019 cap if they cut/trade him.  They will have $21M less in cap room, and no player production in exchange.  Sure it’s a sunk cost, but it should be a sunk cost where they’d be getting All-Pro WR production in exchange.  

And, sure they will get some cap relief afterwards, but then who will their QB be?  A fading Big Ben?  Mason Rudolph?  Josh Dobbs?  Some veteran re-tread?  A rookie?  

Face it, the Steelers screwed up Bell and maybe with AB, and because if it, they are in the process of wasting a few of the last prime years of their franchise QB.  Most teams don’t get two in a row.  For every SF, GB, or Indy, there’s a Dallas, Denver, ‘80’s Pitt, Mia, etc.

They did not screw up Bell and they get the cap money back. You can lead a cow to water but you can't make him drink. The only alternative they had was to meet his exorbitant contract demands and while I know from the Bell thread you will support him to your dying day and why you probably can't see this clearly and all is just another opportunity to take a shot at Steelers for not agreeing to Bell's demands which with or without hindsight of how this season went I could not agree more with the Steelers decision.

They are not losing $21M in cap space if they trade AB. They are gaining cap space. Don't know how many more ways to say this. They lose the players production, they gain net cap space. If the keep AB they have less cap space then if they move him.  And for what it's worth if they move on from AB this year they would essentially paid him $42.7M for two years plus whatever he gets back as a trade. Maybe not a great deal, but 205/2,830/24 TD's plus what he gets back in possible trade is not that terrible either.

 

Edited by menobrown
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28 minutes ago, Hankmoody said:

They got the $14M back for 2019, and they don't have to "give up" $21M for AB - he's already counting over $22M against the cap today, so they'll actually save a few bucks by moving him.

In 2018, they had $14M that went unused because they mishandled the Bell situation.  

Yes, they get to roll that money over to 2019; that doesn’t change the fact that I’m 2018, they had $14M less than other teams.

And, now that they’ve gotten that $14M rolled over, they’ve expressed a willingness  to take it, and another $7M, and do the same thing:  let that money go to waste, rather than have an All-Pro play for them as a return on that expense.

I get that it might be the best decision available to them; but that doesn’t make it a good decision.  It’s not one these AB issues are new; the coaches/franchise decided to ignore them while at the same time, investing a lot of money on the guy.  Used to think the Steelers were a good franchise; the last several years (ever since the defense of Harrison abusing his wife/gf) have changed that.

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28 minutes ago, menobrown said:

They did not screw up Bell and they get the cap money back. You can lead a cow to water but you can't make him drink. The only alternative they had was to meet his exorbitant contract demands and while I know from the Bell thread you will support him to your dying day and why you probably can't see this clearly and all is just another opportunity to take a shot at Steelers for not agreeing to Bell's demands which with or without hindsight of how this season went I could not agree more with the Steelers decision.

They are not losing $21M in cap space if they trade AB. They are gaining cap space. Don't know how many more ways to say this. They lose the players production, they gain net cap space. If the keep AB they have less cap space then if they move him.  And for what it's worth if they move on from AB this year they would essentially paid him $42.7M for two years plus whatever he gets back as a trade. Maybe not a great deal, but 205/2,830/24 TD's plus what he gets back in possible trade is not that terrible either.

 

“Cap space” is not the right phrase.  I used that that phrase in my 1st post & it was inaccurate; you seem to be hung up on it.  

In 2018, Pitt had over $14M in money they couldn’t spend on other players because they so badly mismanaged the Bell situation.  They did not lose the cap space, but they had to play out 2018, with a salary cap that ended up being $14M smaller than other teams had; without receiving All-Pro production in exchange for that money.

If Pitt decides to cut/trade AB, they will face a similar situation:  having a massive amount of their cap tied up by a player who will not play for them.  They will have $21M (which will completely wipe out the Bell rollover money) that they are unable to spend on other players.  Sure they will save a bit over $1M than they would pay AB to PLAY for them in 2019; but if you assume they use that $1M for a WR, they are going to, essentially, be spending $22M on a WR worth $1M.  No way to spin that as smart.

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On 1/5/2019 at 3:47 PM, grateful zed said:

or the eastern front.

You’re showing your age but I love this reference. 

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8 hours ago, menobrown said:

I'm with Mort and was before his report. While I still think AB could smooth this over if he wants to I just don't think he does, I think he's getting traded and felt that way ever since Tomlin's press conference and AB's actions during that press conference.

In one very big respect AB could have a bigger market then Odell and be easier to trade. Odell had one year left on his deal so anyone trading for him then had to work out a costly extension. AB on the other hand is signed up at what would be a relative bargain of 3 years at $36M.

Of course Odell is younger and not sure on the grand scale of things which one is considered to be more of a headache so other factors exist, just pointing out one big reason why AB might be more attractive to teams then Odell.

 

Nobody will pay what Brown is worth to the Steelers at that salary. 

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6 minutes ago, Ben & Jerry's said:

If I'm the Packers, I'd offer up their 1st rounder for AB. Give Rogers 3 good years before he starts to decline.

I think the Steelers would pull the trigger to get a Top 12 pick and the Packers have another 1st rounder don't they?

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The Steelers will pull the trigger for a lot less than a top 12 pick in my opinion.  They have to move him and teams know it.  I'll be happy if they get a late first but think it will more likely be an early second plus a later round pick.

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15 minutes ago, Godsbrother said:

I think the Steelers would pull the trigger to get a Top 12 pick and the Packers have another 1st rounder don't they?

GB has #12 and #32.  Not sure if GB would give up the 12, but if they would, how does that work?  Pitt has to eat the dead cap when they trade him, does that mean GB only has to count his salary against their cap & not the pro-rated parts of his signing bonus (since Pitt will be eating that in 2019)?  If that's the case, that makes Brown much more appealing to other teams, IMO.  If you get rid of his pro-rated bonuses, AB's cap hits for another team would be around $15M, $11M, and $12.5M (I think).  John Ross was picked at #9 in 2018, and his first 3 years cap hits were $3.1M, $3.9M, and $4.7M.  

If the cap hits for Brown are correct (without his pro-rated bonuses), a lower end top-10 draft pick might not be too prohibitive.  The team trading for him would have to accept anywhere from and extra $7M to $12M in cap hit over the next 3 years (probably less of a difference, as the cap has increased each of the last 2 years, and therefore, so too would the compensation for those players picked at these spots), but they'd get an established All-Pro WR, and not a speculative rookie.

That being said, I'm not sure if GB would work; they have Adams, and Rodgers seems to love him.  If AB couldn't handle being the #1, with a rising #2, I don't know how well he'd handle being the WR 2 or, WR 1B.

Edited by Bayhawks

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To me, the Raiders make the most sense as a trade partner.  They will have 3 first round picks in 2019, Pick 4, the Bears pick #24 and the Cowboys TBD pick.  I could see them wanting a big name and big personality as they prepare to go into Las Vegas and I could see them being willing to part with either the Bears or Cowboys pick.  I'm sure someone could find a sound bite of Gruden gushing over AB.

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42 minutes ago, brewer said:

To me, the Raiders make the most sense as a trade partner.  They will have 3 first round picks in 2019, Pick 4, the Bears pick #24 and the Cowboys TBD pick.  I could see them wanting a big name and big personality as they prepare to go into Las Vegas and I could see them being willing to part with either the Bears or Cowboys pick.  I'm sure someone could find a sound bite of Gruden gushing over AB.

Considering they blew a 3rd round pick on Martavis, AB for a 1st looks like a steal

 

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2 hours ago, Ben & Jerry's said:

If I'm the Packers, I'd offer up their 1st rounder for AB. Give Rogers 3 good years before he starts to decline.

Way too much of a diva to give that much money and draft capital at his age.

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54 minutes ago, Godsbrother said:

Considering they blew a 3rd round pick on Martavis, AB for a 1st looks like a steal

 

Well they do need a replacement for Martavis now...  😀

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1 hour ago, brewer said:

.  I'm sure someone could find a sound bite of Gruden gushing over AB.

I got this:

Here's what Jon Gruden said about Antonio Brown: `If you get a chance to watch him practice, you’ll see what unlocks the greatness in him. Hardest working player I’ve ever seen practice. I’ve seen Jerry Rice, I’ve seen a lot of good ones, but I put Antonio Brown at the top. '

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1 hour ago, Edgar said:

Those are three cheap years for the team acquiring AB. What are the odds he holds out for more? 

Yes they are cheap years,  I'd put that around $6M a year under what his market price would bear for his production.

I don't think he'd hold out, he's never held out. Not sure he has enough self awareness to wait a little time to ask for a restructure  right after his possible trade but I think eventually he'll at least want a restructure so he won't essentially be on 3 non guaranteed years with his potential new team and as part of that restructure I'd expect him to want a little bump in pay. I just get a feeling that whoever might acquire him in a trade will be allowed, with Steelers permission, to discuss his contract situation with Rosenhaus before making the move, to make sure he's ready to play and won't be a problem.

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1 hour ago, menobrown said:

Yes they are cheap years,  I'd put that around $6M a year under what his market price would bear for his production.

I don't think he'd hold out, he's never held out. Not sure he has enough self awareness to wait a little time to ask for a restructure  right after his possible trade but I think eventually he'll at least want a restructure so he won't essentially be on 3 non guaranteed years with his potential new team and as part of that restructure I'd expect him to want a little bump in pay. I just get a feeling that whoever might acquire him in a trade will be allowed, with Steelers permission, to discuss his contract situation with Rosenhaus before making the move, to make sure he's ready to play and won't be a problem.

I also expect him to want a bump in pay/guarantees if he’s on a new team. Pinpointing his financial expectations will be key for the team giving up draft capital

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1 hour ago, menobrown said:

I got this:

Here's what Jon Gruden said about Antonio Brown: `If you get a chance to watch him practice, you’ll see what unlocks the greatness in him. Hardest working player I’ve ever seen practice. I’ve seen Jerry Rice, I’ve seen a lot of good ones, but I put Antonio Brown at the top. '

 

at this point, I can't tell the difference between Gruden being sincere and Gruden spewing his usual hyperbole.

As a (trying-to-be-former) Raiders fan, in the state that this team is currently in, it doesn't make any sense to bring in AB. AB is perfect for a win-now team looking for that last piece to put them over the top, and not a team in full rebuild. Of course, that means the Raiders will make this move 😐

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7 hours ago, joey said:

 

at this point, I can't tell the difference between Gruden being sincere and Gruden spewing his usual hyperbole.

As a (trying-to-be-former) Raiders fan, in the state that this team is currently in, it doesn't make any sense to bring in AB. AB is perfect for a win-now team looking for that last piece to put them over the top, and not a team in full rebuild. Of course, that means the Raiders will make this move 😐

Makes no sense for Brown to the Raiders.   The Raiders have a ton of holes to fill and are years away from possibly being good.  

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Jason La Canfora Retweeted

Gerry Dulac‏Verified account @gerrydulac 2h2 hours ago

BREAKING: Steelers president Art Rooney II said he s not going to release Antonio Brown, but “all other options are on the table.” He would not say Steelers are going to trade their All-Pro receiver, but left no doubt that is a strong possibility. Story coming soon on PG site.

 

Ed Bouchette‏Verified account @EdBouchette 2h2 hours ago

Goodbye Antonio Brown

 

Antonio Brown‏Verified account @AB84 22m22 minutes ago

Good Business #Boomin

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If I were a Steelers fan, I'd be really pissed the way they have handled their 2 star players. Bell and AB aren't guys you just easily replace. 

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Rooney has basically given up leverage by all but saying they want to trade AB. Considering AB's salary and the disruptive behavior I do not see a lot of suitors. Likely landing spots would be the teams with large cap space and in position to be competitive. Teams that qualify under that criteria are:

Colts

Seahawks

Texans

I do not think WR is a big need for the Texans. Colts and Seahawks are very interesting landing spots that would have a huge fantasy impact. 

I see the Raiders and Jets as two other likely suitors because of cap space and need. 

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5 minutes ago, 32 Counter Pass said:

Rooney has basically given up leverage by all but saying they want to trade AB. Considering AB's salary and the disruptive behavior I do not see a lot of suitors. Likely landing spots would be the teams with large cap space and in position to be competitive. Teams that qualify under that criteria are:

Colts

Seahawks

Texans

I do not think WR is a big need for the Texans. Colts and Seahawks are very interesting landing spots that would have a huge fantasy impact. 

I see the Raiders and Jets as two other likely suitors because of cap space and need. 

I read it a lot different than you do. From what I read, the Steelers will have to eat like a $21 million cap hit for the remainder of all his bonus money. His new team would only have to pay him his remaining salaries. I believe that averages out to $12 million a year. Basically, PIT would have already paid him a third of his average cap hit in prior bonuses. 

It would be interesting if a team like the Colts traded for AB and later signed Bell. Compared to what some other receivers have gotten or will sign for, AB from $12 million a year is a relative bargain.

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