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Black Ice

Massive Survivor FOOTBALL Pool Runs Amok........

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oh man

NOTE: In all the pools that I run the entire purse is distributed to the winner(s) and nothing is taken out of the purse by me ------------- and while it is certainly not my intention to offend anyone with this message, trust me, after 18 years of hearing and seeing everything, it is necessary for me to do this. If you find yourself disagreeing with my view on this matter I strongly suggest you not participate in any of my pools, it will simply help us both avoid a very ugly situation somewhere down the road.

Regarding how to handle pool organizers, I do not understand why the winners do not immediately say the words: "please accept a 10% gift from my winnings for all the hard work and time you put into organizing this pool." I always have and always will say those words when I win a pool. Organizers who run pools do more work than anyone can imagine, and I do not just mean in the organization of the picks – the collection process is usually the biggest pain in the you know where.

If you do not believe so, then try running your own pool, sometimes with over 6000 entries. I will say one type of pool, Super Bowl Box pools, might not warrant a 10% gift since the work is so limited in time and scope, but do not hesitate to invite me to your box pool because I do leave a 10% gift even for box pool organizers. I also feel that the gift (and i impose a maximum of 10%) should be based solely on the value of the purse (winner's share) and not the winner’s cost associated with playing the game which may be affected by poor hedging or gambling losses in general. The "pool is the pool" and nothing else should impact the pool, negatively or positively.

The organizer's work is the same no matter what else goes on outside the pool environment. Additionally, the organizer's gift should not be impacted negatively if the pool is run electronically via a 3rd party piece of software. The organizer still collects all the fees as well as paying for this electronic service out of his own pocket and also serves as the liaison to the 3rd party and handles all the dumb questions about using the system.

The goal is to bring a better product and better communication to all players. Would you rather force the organizer to revert back to manual methods which will result in the less than perfect timing of status - just so as to ensure a better gift? Without the pool organizer staying in touch with all the players and getting them together each year, the pool would not continue to exist and grow each year.

I also think the gift left to the organizer should not be withheld or reduced if the organizer happens to also share in the winnings of the purse. One has nothing to do with the other. If you are lucky enough to win one of my pools, you will have the chance to decide how to treat me, and therefore also have control over how these pools are run in the future.

I hope this message is not viewed as too pompous and I hope it helps other pool organizers around the country. I would hate for these pools to have to change and be put online like our friends in Canada, who take 15 -20 % vig for themselves.

To the majority of you, who I know respect my efforts, I pledge to not allow any idiots to do anything which will cause these pools to end - even if I need to solicit the help from the masses to do so. A suggestion was made a few months ago by several people after I sent that survey out: they suggested I have every player pledge their % gift up front when they join the pool, therefore the % gift would already be determined ahead of time. Interesting idea, and a road I might go down, but even if I did the cap would still be 10% of the pot. Thanks for reviewing my thoughts and as always I welcome all feedback and comments.

=================================

why put this stuff online?

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Yup...that's the coercive language I was mentioning

What a moreon.

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luckily it was just $100 per, so no one is really out all that much out of their own pocketCrazy that he got up to 8 thousand entries

People threatening this guy's life over $100 when he is already looking at losing his family and prison are huge pieces of #### in my opinion. Don't spend the money if losing it is going to make the issue become personal.Sounds like he had the best intentions and is going way too far in his disclosure which is going to help hang him, makes it kind of sad and the only winner here is the U.S. government.

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luckily it was just $100 per, so no one is really out all that much out of their own pocketCrazy that he got up to 8 thousand entries

People threatening this guy's life over $100 when he is already looking at losing his family and prison are huge pieces of #### in my opinion. Don't spend the money if losing it is going to make the issue become personal.Sounds like he had the best intentions and is going way too far in his disclosure which is going to help hang him, makes it kind of sad and the only winner here is the U.S. government.
I think that if there was concrete proof that his story is 100% legit, no one would be threatening him or making a big deal over itThere have been several inconsistencies and unanswered questions regarding the whole thing, and given the amount of money involved in total, I think people are suspiciousI am surprised it didn't make the press, if it is true"Million dollar gambling ring busted" has NYC press all over it

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luckily it was just $100 per, so no one is really out all that much out of their own pocketCrazy that he got up to 8 thousand entries

People threatening this guy's life over $100 when he is already looking at losing his family and prison are huge pieces of #### in my opinion. Don't spend the money if losing it is going to make the issue become personal.Sounds like he had the best intentions and is going way too far in his disclosure which is going to help hang him, makes it kind of sad and the only winner here is the U.S. government.
I think that if there was concrete proof that his story is 100% legit, no one would be threatening him or making a big deal over itThere have been several inconsistencies and unanswered questions regarding the whole thing, and given the amount of money involved in total, I think people are suspiciousI am surprised it didn't make the press, if it is true"Million dollar gambling ring busted" has NYC press all over it
Rings getting busted make news when local cops are involved. If it was IRS and the Feds sniffing this guy out, the story won't surface until the indictment is written up. They probably will wait on all the charges until they finish going through everything, right now he is probably just sitting and waiting for the sky to fall.I have no idea if it's legit or not, but if was my money lost I would scold myself and be on my way. Guys that are willing to show up at his house are only subjecting themselves to additional investigation.

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I cant imagine joining something like this. What a load of crap.

Funny. This time last year, someone was making fun of me for not wanting to join this very pool. :shrug: ;)Also, you can make money off gambling, pay taxes, and never receive a phone call. The IRS actually tells the FBI to GTFO when they ask (or have asked in the past) for the info on such tax payers. I don't know if this guy was doing it, how he was handling payouts, or how winners were handling their own taxes, but it may explain the local police being involved in the arrest and not some federal government agency.Taxes don't sound like the problem here. This guy was making (theoretically) $80k per year off this. He could have been paying taxes on it, but I don't think he's that smart. He could have... hmm, I think it's possible to do this in a manner, while not totally "legal," is possible to accomplish the way some people get around certain activities without being hassled. I'm going to shut up now until I reason this out a little more.

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I cant imagine joining something like this. What a load of crap.

Funny. This time last year, someone was making fun of me for not wanting to join this very pool. :goodposting: :thumbup:Also, you can make money off gambling, pay taxes, and never receive a phone call. The IRS actually tells the FBI to GTFO when they ask (or have asked in the past) for the info on such tax payers. I don't know if this guy was doing it, how he was handling payouts, or how winners were handling their own taxes, but it may explain the local police being involved in the arrest and not some federal government agency.Taxes don't sound like the problem here. This guy was making (theoretically) $80k per year off this. He could have been paying taxes on it, but I don't think he's that smart. He could have... hmm, I think it's possible to do this in a manner, while not totally "legal," is possible to accomplish the way some people get around certain activities without being hassled. I'm going to shut up now until I reason this out a little more.
you may not have played this pool, but gambling is gambling. i'm sure at some point you entered a pool that someone ran, played roto or wagered on the individual statistics of a great player, like mark sanchez.

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I cant imagine joining something like this. What a load of crap.

Funny. This time last year, someone was making fun of me for not wanting to join this very pool. :whistle: :rolleyes:Also, you can make money off gambling, pay taxes, and never receive a phone call. The IRS actually tells the FBI to GTFO when they ask (or have asked in the past) for the info on such tax payers. I don't know if this guy was doing it, how he was handling payouts, or how winners were handling their own taxes, but it may explain the local police being involved in the arrest and not some federal government agency.Taxes don't sound like the problem here. This guy was making (theoretically) $80k per year off this. He could have been paying taxes on it, but I don't think he's that smart. He could have... hmm, I think it's possible to do this in a manner, while not totally "legal," is possible to accomplish the way some people get around certain activities without being hassled. I'm going to shut up now until I reason this out a little more.
you may not have played this pool, but gambling is gambling. i'm sure at some point you entered a pool that someone ran, played roto or wagered on the individual statistics of a great player, like mark sanchez.
I believe you have me confused with another, rather large, 2 dimensional person.I have no problem with gambling. I do laugh when idiots get involved in it and think they know everything like this moron appears to have done.

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if you put a number lower than 10 it will be your way of showing me that you do not share my view on compensating pool managers

Doosh

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For handing 8000 accounts a 10 dollar fee up front isn't unreasonable for a full season pool, but the whole "tip" thing is absurd. Charge what it's worth to you to do it or GTFO.

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For handing 8000 accounts a 10 dollar fee up front isn't unreasonable for a full season pool, but the whole "tip" thing is absurd. Charge what it's worth to you to do it or GTFO.

Charging for it up front was considered more illegal than the way he did it

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How is fantasy football not the same as this gambling?

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I cant imagine joining something like this. What a load of crap.

Funny. This time last year, someone was making fun of me for not wanting to join this very pool. :shrug: :(Also, you can make money off gambling, pay taxes, and never receive a phone call. The IRS actually tells the FBI to GTFO when they ask (or have asked in the past) for the info on such tax payers. I don't know if this guy was doing it, how he was handling payouts, or how winners were handling their own taxes, but it may explain the local police being involved in the arrest and not some federal government agency.Taxes don't sound like the problem here. This guy was making (theoretically) $80k per year off this. He could have been paying taxes on it, but I don't think he's that smart. He could have... hmm, I think it's possible to do this in a manner, while not totally "legal," is possible to accomplish the way some people get around certain activities without being hassled. I'm going to shut up now until I reason this out a little more.
you may not have played this pool, but gambling is gambling. i'm sure at some point you entered a pool that someone ran, played roto or wagered on the individual statistics of a great player, like mark sanchez.
Ive done all of these things, but Ive never gotten in a pool where someone demanded a 10% tip. I used to be in very big one with 3 other guys where we each put in $25 for the entry and split it. It was all run on-line and it was all pretty much automated. You weren't in until you paypal'd the money (no collections). You had to put your pick in before the deadline or you were out. Once you entered your pick, you could see everyone elses pics. After the games were over, you could see all winners/losers. Once you were eliminated, you could no longer enter picks. How is this any "work" for anyone?

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For handing 8000 accounts a 10 dollar fee up front isn't unreasonable for a full season pool, but the whole "tip" thing is absurd. Charge what it's worth to you to do it or GTFO.

Charging for it up front was considered more illegal than the way he did it
Probably. Depending on how this guy handled all the taxes there could be people looking at some real serious time from the IRS.

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How is fantasy football not the same as this gambling?

It is the same.....but there are laws that have been passed that state fantasy sports are legal. The UIGEA which ended most of the fun of neteller and party poker had an exemption for horse racing and fantasy sports.

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Trying to get the cliff notes here:

So was he pocketing 10% and just changed the verbiage to say he would accept a tip even though it was mandatory?

I have never once took money for running a pool, of course 100 has been my max. We had a guy run a box pool at work one time, the payouts were $100 less than the total. We questioned him about it he said he keeps that.

He had a tough time filling up that sheet. :confused:

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For handing 8000 accounts a 10 dollar fee up front isn't unreasonable for a full season pool, but the whole "tip" thing is absurd. Charge what it's worth to you to do it or GTFO.

Charging for it up front was considered more illegal than the way he did it
This. Tips are used to circumvent the law as one cannot act as the "house" that profits in a gambling operation. He should have hired a lawyer to help him write his "Tip Manifesto" posted by Pickles above.

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this is interesting. I played in Bovery's pool from 2001-2004 or so and this year a friend 'gave' me a pick in Bovery's for helping him with some work. So i maybe

i have a different perspective in that i didn't get directly stung, but yet i am familiar enough with all the participant in this possible scroogie.

1) To those say don't enter if the $$ is going to cause you to make death threats --- ok agreed, we aren't wackos and the death threats probably constitute more of a crime than anything.

But what also has happened, the Bovery pool was so huge because there were a number of 'feeders' into it, so now those people are on the line because they played

middle-man and the players are looking to them for answers, not to Jack Bovery. ok again, don't play if...... i get it. But people were stung for a lot more than just one entry fee. I know

one guy who put 20 people in. What is his recourse? The rambling posts of a criminal or scammer?

2) The consensus is he is a pompous jerk. No debating that. Anyone looking for sympathy doesn't need to mention how huge his mansion is. And his emails are just plain fueling the fire,

in my opinion. But let me get to a few points ---

** Why now? --- could be that question was answered for him, maybe he was LET GO from his teaching job and then decided to take action. I believe some of what he wrote, i just disagree

with the context.

** Why send emails/ posts? --- any lawyers here? what lawyer wouldn't stop him from doing something that stupid? My guess is he doesn't have a lawyer because he

hasn't been arrested.

** He has claimed you can go visit him if you call and set up an appointment. Judging from the amount of people (8,000), there has to be a significant local (to his 'home in Parlin')

portion that is pissed off enough that going to his condo wouldn't be a big deal. I cannot believe no one has taken him up on it, so i have to believe that is BS too.

** It's funny he claims the police made him go through a psych-ward for a offhanded comment he made. Seems like to me the police wanted to stick it to him there, but yet GAVE

HIM A FREE PASS on reporting it to the press? Oh and the press, from what i understand, knows how to look for a story. It's funny 8 policemen ransacking a condo didn't

cause anyone in the complex to dial a friend, that friend knows someone..... how fast things travel today i cannot believe there wasn't a cameraman taking pics. It wouldn't take much to get a

story after that. Is his condo on an Island?

3) to wrap it up, i would have to say he is at least guilty of associating with scumbuckets and that would cause me to question him as well.

I believe it was 2004 (maybe 2003),

i tried to enter but the pool was capped and i couldn't.

An 'associate' of his then opened up a secondary market, and i can tell you, this was a fix. This jerk was from Colorado and after the first week he

could never get the updates out in time for the games. And when he did, it was always "Just got back from taking my *** to college, what a lovely trip" on and on till he finally

gave the breakdown of the teams selected in his email. I mean a Survival pool where you didn't know who had what until the games were almost done?!? That combined

with a couple of 'schill picks', and you are home free with the money.

Bovery is definitely guilty by association on that one, he provided the 'associate'.

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But what also has happened, the Bovery pool was so huge because there were a number of 'feeders' into it, so now those people are on the line because they playedmiddle-man and the players are looking to them for answers, not to Jack Bovery. ok again, don't play if...... i get it. But people were stung for a lot more than just one entry fee. I knowone guy who put 20 people in. What is his recourse? The rambling posts of a criminal or scammer?

can you maybefleshthis out a bit for me. what do you mean by'feeders' being stungby more than one entry fee?

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I'm actually in a similar situation. Been playing in a NFL pool for a few seasons now, $125/man with about 200 guys in it. Won $350 last season and the guy has just disappeared. The winner still hasn't been paid his nearly $8K prize. I have the dude's home # and have left several messages with absolutely no reponse. Not a great scenario.

Sounds like somebody ####ed with the Jesus.

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But what also has happened, the Bovery pool was so huge because there were a number of 'feeders' into it, so now those people are on the line because they playedmiddle-man and the players are looking to them for answers, not to Jack Bovery. ok again, don't play if...... i get it. But people were stung for a lot more than just one entry fee. I knowone guy who put 20 people in. What is his recourse? The rambling posts of a criminal or scammer?

can you maybefleshthis out a bit for me. what do you mean by'feeders' being stungby more than one entry fee?
If you had an office you can streamline his pool by putting in 20 or so entries in a standard format and send together at once. So the feeder is at the top of a 20 person chain or more. So the feeders are getting heat for putting them on a shaky pool.This is crap because the people in feeder pools should have known there was a risk upsizing the pool like that.

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i am having more and more doubts. no question the guy came off as pompous, but i can imagine you'd have to be.

why instantaneously resign your job same day?

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I'm actually in a similar situation. Been playing in a NFL pool for a few seasons now, $125/man with about 200 guys in it. Won $350 last season and the guy has just disappeared. The winner still hasn't been paid his nearly $8K prize. I have the dude's home # and have left several messages with absolutely no reponse. Not a great scenario.

Sounds like somebody ####ed with the Jesus.
You said it man.

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1) To those say don't enter if the $$ is going to cause you to make death threats --- ok agreed, we aren't wackos and the death threats probably constitute more of a crime than anything.

But what also has happened, the Bovery pool was so huge because there were a number of 'feeders' into it, so now those people are on the line because they played

middle-man and the players are looking to them for answers, not to Jack Bovery. ok again, don't play if...... i get it. But people were stung for a lot more than just one entry fee. I know

one guy who put 20 people in. What is his recourse? The rambling posts of a criminal or scammer?

Anyone familiar with the RICO act and racketeering laws in this country would know this was incredibly stupid. They are lucky they got off losing $2,000 if that is the case.

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But what also has happened, the Bovery pool was so huge because there were a number of 'feeders' into it, so now those people are on the line because they playedmiddle-man and the players are looking to them for answers, not to Jack Bovery. ok again, don't play if...... i get it. But people were stung for a lot more than just one entry fee. I knowone guy who put 20 people in. What is his recourse? The rambling posts of a criminal or scammer?

can you maybefleshthis out a bit for me. what do you mean by'feeders' being stungby more than one entry fee?
If you had an office you can streamline his pool by putting in 20 or so entries in a standard format and send together at once. So the feeder is at the top of a 20 person chain or more. So the feeders are getting heat for putting them on a shaky pool.This is crap because the people in feeder pools should have known there was a risk upsizing the pool like that.
ah, roger that.

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But what also has happened, the Bovery pool was so huge because there were a number of 'feeders' into it, so now those people are on the line because they playedmiddle-man and the players are looking to them for answers, not to Jack Bovery. ok again, don't play if...... i get it. But people were stung for a lot more than just one entry fee. I knowone guy who put 20 people in. What is his recourse? The rambling posts of a criminal or scammer?

can you maybefleshthis out a bit for me. what do you mean by'feeders' being stungby more than one entry fee?
sorry, i tried to keep it short.Feeders are people who also run pools, but offer the 'Bovery' option as something bigger. So a player would send X a check ($) and say, put me in for 3 picks in your pool, and 2 picks in Bovery's pool.So this middle-man feeder, has 20 or so people after him, not Bovery. I am just saying it's the exception that players were only stung for one pick, or entry fee. More often it's was in the hundreds.Far more people play mutliple picks because it is so hard, and you can 'hedge' things should it go that far. And this is also a word of mouth pool, people will get mad at whomever gave them the idea.It's a bad scene, no doubt. And not good for gamblers in general no matter what you believe.

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i am having more and more doubts. no question the guy came off as pompous, but i can imagine you'd have to be.why instantaneously resign your job same day?

this is one detail people could reasonably check out, without too much trouble. So i believe he did resign, but probably before then as he planned to split anyway.Then blamed in on the "incident". Seems like he might've been only "suspended with pay pending a hearing", what throw that away?It is funny the lack of info on this guy who had 8,000 people in his pool. Any teacher for 20 years should have his name somewhere on the net.Commencement speaker, some accomplishment, anything.The only listings for him were second-hand references to his pool.Yahoo Answers -- "what is the biggest Survival pool? -- John Boveryother football sites like this, touting his size....

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I'm actually involved in this pool as well Black Ice. I believe him. He's been running this thing for 20+ years. Why steal from us now? Why not a few years ago?

this pools has doubled in size almost every two years. It was barely 2,000 earlier in the decade.I assume you've heard of the expression "waiting for the big one"? And i am pretty sure i don't have to explain the economic situation now compared to even 4 years ago.1+1= ?

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I knew a P.Wrinkle

think he is related?

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I'm actually involved in this pool as well Black Ice. I believe him. He's been running this thing for 20+ years. Why steal from us now? Why not a few years ago?

this pools has doubled in size almost every two years. It was barely 2,000 earlier in the decade.I assume you've heard of the expression "waiting for the big one"? And i am pretty sure i don't have to explain the economic situation now compared to even 4 years ago.1+1= ?
Anyone else think this here guy come across as a toolbag? If I was Bovery, I'd steal your money, too.

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I'm actually involved in this pool as well Black Ice. I believe him. He's been running this thing for 20+ years. Why steal from us now? Why not a few years ago?

this pools has doubled in size almost every two years. It was barely 2,000 earlier in the decade.I assume you've heard of the expression "waiting for the big one"? And i am pretty sure i don't have to explain the economic situation now compared to even 4 years ago.1+1= ?
Anyone else think this here guy come across as a toolbag? If I was Bovery, I'd steal your money, too.
:goodposting: He wants his money back, that's completely understandable. See the seven stages of grief. First is shock and denial, 2nd is pain, 3rd is anger and bargaining. The upward turn should be coming along soon when the healing can actually begin. If your participating in something against the law with sights upon the huge payouts of the top prize to get into a pool this good, you need to accept the risks involved. Nobody wins against the US Government, they just have to pick their battles because of so many of us willing to break the law and accept the risks.If this was a legit business, sure the guy could be traced. But Jack/John Bovery is likely just a name some guy used for the business in the first place.

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I'm actually involved in this pool as well Black Ice. I believe him. He's been running this thing for 20+ years. Why steal from us now? Why not a few years ago?

this pools has doubled in size almost every two years. It was barely 2,000 earlier in the decade.I assume you've heard of the expression "waiting for the big one"? And i am pretty sure i don't have to explain the economic situation now compared to even 4 years ago.1+1= ?
Anyone else think this here guy come across as a toolbag? If I was Bovery, I'd steal your money, too.
I already said i had no money in the pool, just trying to help people that aren't local and are maybe freaking out big time. Believe me, i can handle losing.Idiots like you are far more annoying to deal with.

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I'm actually involved in this pool as well Black Ice. I believe him. He's been running this thing for 20+ years. Why steal from us now? Why not a few years ago?

this pools has doubled in size almost every two years. It was barely 2,000 earlier in the decade.I assume you've heard of the expression "waiting for the big one"? And i am pretty sure i don't have to explain the economic situation now compared to even 4 years ago.1+1= ?
Anyone else think this here guy come across as a toolbag? If I was Bovery, I'd steal your money, too.
I already said i had no money in the pool, just trying to help people that aren't local and are maybe freaking out big time. Believe me, i can handle losing.Idiots like you are far more annoying to deal with.
Who lost anything? He got busted before the season started? People are out what? 100 bucks max? BFD, you gamble you lose sometimes.

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Who lost anything? He got busted before the season started? People are out what? 100 bucks max? BFD, you gamble you lose sometimes.

exactly, BFD. but if you read the threads, people don't just put in one pick. many people put in 8, and some, who brokered the pool for others have other issues.

so some are out 4 figures. for me it wouldn't be about the money anyway, but i only live 15 miles from the guy. I would figure it out.

i was only trying to help the OP and others. i personally don't care which side this lands on.

good luck to whomever lost money, but i think Bovery's gone.

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I already said i had no money in the pool, just trying to help people that aren't local and are maybe freaking out big time. Believe me, i can handle losing.Idiots like you are far more annoying to deal with.

Yes, but I'm TRYING to be annoying. Tomorrow, when I wake up, I can go back to being a sane, normal person.Some of us,Aren't soLucky.

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i'm out 200-

i was gonna lose anyway, but at least i could have made some awful picks.

beginning to wonder too if john bovery is a real person.

hopefully this guy gets shanked.

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exactly, BFD. but if you read the threads, people don't just put in one pick. many people put in 8, and some, who brokered the pool for others have other issues.

so some are out 4 figures. for me it wouldn't be about the money anyway, but i only live 15 miles from the guy. I would figure it out.

i was only trying to help the OP and others. i personally don't care which side this lands on.

good luck to whomever lost money, but i think Bovery's gone.

--------------------

Again, it's gambling. If someone goes in over one entry it doesn't make their cause special.

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i'm out 200-i was gonna lose anyway, but at least i could have made some awful picks.beginning to wonder too if john bovery is a real person.hopefully this guy gets shanked.

i don't blame you. most sane people would feel that way. But he is real, i have spoken to him twice and my buddy talked to him all the time about pools etc...but he is gone, i have already found out he is not a full-time teacher, but a sub. This pool was his life, and now he made it his retirement.Sorry to hear about ur cash. I don't think anyone is upset about the money, it's about getting shafted.I don't think anyone thought "i'm gonna win it". you just wanted to have some fun.

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This is why I stick to the free message board contest. It doesn't cost me anything but hurt pride ;)

Pretty interesting story, for sure. Looked around for some press on this and there's nothing, but it's possible LE isn't gonna say anything until an arraigment or whatever I guess. They may be looking at whether it's part of something bigger like organized crime or something. But given what other posters have put in terms of what the guy put on his website it's no surprise he got busted. He's practically begging for it seems - I would think that underworld folks would be more discreet. If he really set up a company or whatever to run this thing that seems the height of stupidity.

Rudimentary google searches makes it seem to like this guy's a real person (i.e. not some psuedonym). I don't think he ran off with the $800k - mainly because I think that if he did he would've just done a total Houdini. But who knows.

If I see something in the local press about it I'll post it up or put up a link. Gotta figure it would hit the papers sooner than later.

-QG

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