What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

Welcome to Our Forums. Once you've registered and logged in, you're primed to talk football, among other topics, with the sharpest and most experienced fantasy players on the internet.

Why haven't best-ball FFB leagues become more popular? (1 Viewer)

Doug B

Doug B

Footballguy
Fantasy football, since it started gaining steam in the 1980s, has gone through several innovations that have become widely (if not universally) accepted. For instance, there was a time when FFB drafts weren't serpentine. 1980s-style TD/FG/XP-only leagues have yielded to the current state of affairs, where yardage leagues are in a strong majority. Auctions were a new idea circa 1990, and have become popular for live leagues (if still in a minority of all leagues overall). Keeper and dynasty leagues have been popular for at least 15 years. IDP leagues aren't the majority, but have an established toehold. And finally, PPR leagues were barely around 10 years ago, but now are probably the majority of online leagues.

There's another FFB innovation, however, that seems to never quite get critical mass, and that's best-ball leagues. It's been done in a popular online experts league (Fanex Football) from the late 1990s through the present. Lots of FFB players know about that league, which was meant to help the FFB community at large with draft analysis.

Anyway. What happens a lot these days is that people express various concerns about their participation in FFB that would be at least in part alleviated by playing in the best-ball format. Too many leagues, and it's become a drain to manage them all? Can't live on the computer on Sundays to make last-minute lineup changes, so all the no-life people dominate your league? Tired of your smart draft picks & waiver moves blowing up on your bench because 50 FFB sites, Mort, Schefter, and John Clayton basically promised you they wouldn't suit up? Worried about the impact of an 18-game season on your fantasy squads?

All that stuff gets helped a ton in the best-ball format. One other bonus is that you can reach a little further in your draft for more boom-bust type players, because their 3 or 4 great games work to your advantage, while their 10-12 goose-eggs get safely tucked away at the end of your bench.

So ... I ask the house: what's stopping the best-ball format from getting huge? Why don't more of us play it? Are the weekly lineup headaches THAT much of a draw? Wouldn't be cool to get some piece of mind back on Sundays?

 
Last edited by a moderator:
So ... I ask the house: what's stopping the best-ball format from getting huge? Why don't more of us play it? Are the weekly lineup headaches THAT much of a draw? Wouldn't be cool to get some piece of mind back on Sundays?
Click to expand...
I would definitely play in a best-ball league, but I think a lot of owners like the "strategery" of figuring out who to start/bench. Maybe they feel that best-ball is basically a contest for who can draft the best, and they think that starting/sitting guys is a skill that should be rewarded. slightly off-topic: I'd much rather do away completely with H2H leagues, and replace them with FFA (free-for-all). If you score the most points in a week, you go 11-0. That way you don't get rewarded for beating someone 76-54, and you don't get hammered for losing to a guy 120-115.
 
The bad thing about best ball is that it undervalues good FF performers who are consistent but unspectacular. Guys like Steven Jackson and Hines Ward lose most of their value in a best ball format.

 
Northbound Train said:
While haven't best-ball FFB leagues become more popular?

Engrish :goodposting:
Click to expand...
FFB = fantasy footballBest-ball = format in which owners don't turn in weekly lineups. Instead, the best scorers from each squad are automatically tallied together to make up your point total for the week.

 
I would actually prefer to play in a best ball type league. I'd rather just focus on acquiring as many good players as possible and not having to worry about which guy blows up and which guy gets injured from week to week.

 
Babu Bhatt2 said:
The bad thing about best ball is that it undervalues good FF performers who are consistent but unspectacular. Guys like Steven Jackson and Hines Ward lose most of their value in a best ball format.
Click to expand...
Maybe in a small league with shallow rosters. If that's an overriding concern, though, you can mitigate it by adjusting league size and/or starting-lineup sizes.What about the non-lineup-relate advantages? Being able to play six leagues with the time investment of one or two traditional leagues, for instance? Not having to sweat injuries as much?
 
having to make those tough lineup/matchup calls is a part of the skill involved in this hobby and an opportunity to take some of the luck out of it.....so if playing the matchups/line up calls is a strength of yours, you can maybe gain an advantage on your opponents....the draft and done scenerio seems a little boring.....

side note: tough lineup calls, etc are not really my strength, I always seem to pick the wrong one....the draft and WW work are my strength....so best ball would actually probably suit "my game" the best....because often my tough lineup decisions are tough because my team is loaded due to a solid draft and WW work....

I wouldn't mind playing in more best ball leagues, but I don't think I would want it to be the only type of league I played in....

and I guess in best ball, you would still have quite a bit of league activity, as it would seem that you would want as few guys on byes as possible from week to week.........

 
Northbound Train said:
Thanks but the "While haven't" had me <_< :P
Click to expand...
Warning to you young bucks -- I started making a TON more mistakes like that as I've approached 40. :( Going to be a babbling idiot by retirement.The older guys around here hopefully know what I'm talking about :bag:

...

More seriously -- in another thread last week, I mentioned "best-ball", and I was asked in earnest what it meant. Someone else reading this thread may not have known, so I'm glad you got me to type it out.

 
Good post and I agree with you. I've been thinking of starting my own league and if so, would make it an auction draft, best ball, and all-play -- none of these are characteristics of my primary league that is in its 20th year. Each year I try to introduce one of these concepts, but my leaguemates are resistant to any change.

Doug B said:
Too many leagues, and it's become a drain to manage them all? Can't live on the computer on Sundays to make last-minute lineup changes, so all the no-life people dominate your league?
Click to expand...
Even though I play in only two leagues, I find myself too busy to keep on top of player statuses and lineups each Sunday. I really like best ball for this reason most.
 
CrossEyed said:
I would actually prefer to play in a best ball type league. I'd rather just focus on acquiring as many good players as possible and not having to worry about which guy blows up and which guy gets injured from week to week.
Click to expand...
plus there's that whole Sunday morning thing, when you (and others) might be otherwise occupied.
 
Stinkin Ref said:
and I guess in best ball, you would still have quite a bit of league activity, as it would seem that you would want as few guys on byes as possible from week to week.........
Click to expand...
Yeah, there would still be in-season waivers strategy. Not only bye-week-impact mitigation, but you'd try to have a constant churn of your last few roster spots to eke out some slight advantage. Not too different than traditional leagues, I suppose.
 
Doug B said:
So ... I ask the house: what's stopping the best-ball format from getting huge? Why don't more of us play it? Are the weekly lineup headaches THAT much of a draw? Wouldn't be cool to get some piece of mind back on Sundays?
Click to expand...
So I ask you?.....1) Why aren't YOU playing in more of theses leagues?All the major high stakes competitions have Draftmaster, DraftChallenge, whatever they call their fixed roster (no weekly FA) best ball leagues.All of the message board survivor leagues are bestball leaguesThe Ultimate Survivor Challenge and FBG Subscribers Contest are both bestball competitionsMOP started a thread months ago extolling the bestball features and educating people about them
 
oso diablo said:
CrossEyed said:
I would actually prefer to play in a best ball type league. I'd rather just focus on acquiring as many good players as possible and not having to worry about which guy blows up and which guy gets injured from week to week.
Click to expand...
plus there's that whole Sunday morning thing, when you (and others) might be otherwise occupied.
Click to expand...
For guys that have played FFB for a long time, especially if they go back to the pre-Internet days, this is a big factor.How many of you started FFB back in high school or college when you just didn't have that many real-life responsibilities yet? Fast forward 15-20 years, and you could find yourself in a life situation in which hanging out online all day Saturday just can't be done.
 
Rick James said:
So ... I ask the house: what's stopping the best-ball format from getting huge? Why don't more of us play it? Are the weekly lineup headaches THAT much of a draw? Wouldn't be cool to get some piece of mind back on Sundays?
Click to expand...
I would definitely play in a best-ball league, but I think a lot of owners like the "strategery" of figuring out who to start/bench. Maybe they feel that best-ball is basically a contest for who can draft the best, and they think that starting/sitting guys is a skill that should be rewarded. slightly off-topic: I'd much rather do away completely with H2H leagues, and replace them with FFA (free-for-all). If you score the most points in a week, you go 11-0. That way you don't get rewarded for beating someone 76-54, and you don't get hammered for losing to a guy 120-115.
Click to expand...
:goodposting: On both counts. On the one hand, best ball sounds good, but on the other, it "falsely" rewards guys who drafted a backup who had a flukey game because the starter went down vs. a guy who drafted a deep team. (Lee Evans, Gordon Shipley, and David Gettis or even Riley Cooper. And that's just WRs and just from this past week) - I'd be pretty annoyed if I fielded a team with Mashall, Steve Smith (Car), Austin Miles and Mike Williams (TB) - and got beat by a team with Evans, Shipley and Gettis. Best ball also seems, as stated, to lower the value of guys who are consistant, but not spectacular on a week to week basis.Best ball also eliminates the entire matchups/who to start/bye week decisions aspect of FF strategy. As has been said, it basically reduces FF down to draft skill (and sometimes luck, if there are no FA and no trades.)Best ball has its supporters, but it is far from "superior" to lineup leagues. It also has weaknesses and some don't care for those weaknesses. Specifically, that it rewards outliers and not consistancy. If you look around your best ball leagues this week, look at some of the players who won their teams games - McFadden, the afore mentioned WRs, etc. In many lineup leagues, McFadden wasn't even in starting lineups - nor was David Gettis. I just don't prefer systems that reward flukey luck and outliers to consistant production and weekly lineup decisions - and apparently there are still many in FF who do not either.
 
There is a middle ground for those who see value in both systems, but don't want to go whole-hog best-ball: you can allow owners to change, say, one guy in their starting lineup on Tuesday morning. Or have their best bench guy automatically swap out for their lowest starting scorer at the same position.

I figure some league somewhere has got to do that, but I've never personally heard of it.

 
Stinkin Ref said:
having to make those tough lineup/matchup calls is a part of the skill involved in this hobby and an opportunity to take some of the luck out of it.....
Click to expand...
I wholeheartedly disagree. There's very little skill involved in deciding which one out of two or three closely-ranked players will score the most points on a given Sunday. When you happen to make the right call, of course, you'll attribute it to the pre-game research you did into the opposing teams' defenses, etc., but in reality it's 99.99% luck.
 
Ignoratio Elenchi said:
When you happen to make the right call, of course, you'll attribute it to the pre-game research you did into the opposing teams' defenses, etc., but in reality it's 99.99% luck.
Click to expand...
One point worth making here is that best-ball certainly doesn't eliminate (or even necessarily minimize, IMHO) luck from FFB. Instead, it trades luck in some factors for luck in other factors. Shifts it around some.
 
This is a crazy idea that takes the fun out of fantasy football and it should not be called fantasy football if you are in to it then it should be called fantasy drafting or fantasy waiver wiring because that's all that you really do.

 
Doug B said:
There is a middle ground for those who see value in both systems, but don't want to go whole-hog best-ball: you can allow owners to change, say, one guy in their starting lineup on Tuesday morning. Or have their best bench guy automatically swap out for their lowest starting scorer at the same position.I figure some league somewhere has got to do that, but I've never personally heard of it.
Click to expand...
We did something like this in the playoffs in a league I used to be in.The team with the higher seed was able to choose a player, or 2, or 3 (based on the difference in reg season wins) to be their "high seed advantage players". You still were only allowed to swap out 1 player after the games were over to improve your score, but the more players you had in the HSA category the better your odds were to improve your score.So maybe it could work that each team would declare 1 or 2 bench guys as "flex players" and you could swap the 1 that increases your score the most. Still requires some lineup decisions but better utilizes your entire roster.
 
I don't think I would give up my PPR and return leagues just because I enjoy the complexity of it, but I am very interested in playing in a best ball league to see what its like. What sites support this format?

 
SWC said:
This is a crazy idea that takes the fun out of fantasy football and it should not be called fantasy football if you are in to it then it should be called fantasy drafting or fantasy waiver wiring because that's all that you really do.
Click to expand...
Yeah, because in real football if one of your starters is ineffective or gets hurt you are not allowed to play anyone else.
 
footballnerd said:
I don't think I would give up my PPR and return leagues just because I enjoy the complexity of it, but I am very interested in playing in a best ball league to see what its like. What sites support this format?
Click to expand...
MFL does. this spring FBG will be running these in the mock drafts forum.
 
Ignoratio Elenchi said:
Stinkin Ref said:
having to make those tough lineup/matchup calls is a part of the skill involved in this hobby and an opportunity to take some of the luck out of it.....
Click to expand...
I wholeheartedly disagree. There's very little skill involved in deciding which one out of two or three closely-ranked players will score the most points on a given Sunday. When you happen to make the right call, of course, you'll attribute it to the pre-game research you did into the opposing teams' defenses, etc., but in reality it's 99.99% luck.
Click to expand...
if everybody used the exact same rankings I would agree with you.......but they don't....there is some skill/strategy involved, because even if all of us here use the FBG's rankings as a starting point I know there are plenty of times I may start the lower ranked guy based on my own homework/research......best ball eliminates this aspect.........
 
SWC said:
This is a crazy idea that takes the fun out of fantasy football and it should not be called fantasy football if you are in to it then it should be called fantasy drafting or fantasy waiver wiring because that's all that you really do.
Click to expand...
Many would agree. Note, however, how many FFB owners agree that the preseason buildup and the draft are the most fun elements of the fantasy season. A lot of people find the weekly management something of a grind (especially if they are overcommited). But then, it's definitely a different-strokes thing (like auction).
 
Doug B said:
There is a middle ground for those who see value in both systems, but don't want to go whole-hog best-ball: you can allow owners to change, say, one guy in their starting lineup on Tuesday morning. Or have their best bench guy automatically swap out for their lowest starting scorer at the same position.I figure some league somewhere has got to do that, but I've never personally heard of it.
Click to expand...
I was in a league where we would do that for the playoffs as a home field advantage. But I always liked the idea of letting all teams do it, if nothing else to give teams relief if a starter gets hurt early in a game...
 
I wouldn't prefer Best Ball because its basically Draft and sit. Nothing to do. Some people may like that but I feel its boring. Same with Total Points leagues. Right now I'm 3rd in total points but 0-7 for my record. I should be the perfect candidate for wanting best ball or Total points but I'd still rather H2H. The simple competition and strategy are why I love FF.

 
The idea of fantasy football is to draft good players, while making sure that your bye weeks are covered for big stars and that you have good backups. Then you have to look at who your players are competing against and thier matchups, and start the best guys.

There is no rule in the real NFL that lets you magically decide after the game that a certain player didn't actually play, and erase his stinky stat line from your game, and then have all of the other owners and players and coaches make believe that someone else actually played instead, and then change the outcome of the games afterwards. The only guy that might work on is Al Davis, but probably not with anyone else and so I would generally be against such a league.

 
bicycle_seat_sniffer said:
footballnerd said:
I don't think I would give up my PPR and return leagues just because I enjoy the complexity of it, but I am very interested in playing in a best ball league to see what its like. What sites support this format?
Click to expand...
MFL does.
Click to expand...
Yep. In fact, MFL keeps best-ball stats for all its leagues whether your league is best-ball or not. Most people just use these stats to see how many points they could've scored. The site uses them for power rankings, as well.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Doug B said:
Ignoratio Elenchi said:
When you happen to make the right call, of course, you'll attribute it to the pre-game research you did into the opposing teams' defenses, etc., but in reality it's 99.99% luck.
Click to expand...
One point worth making here is that best-ball certainly doesn't eliminate (or even necessarily minimize, IMHO) luck from FFB. Instead, it trades luck in some factors for luck in other factors. Shifts it around some.
Click to expand...
It definitely reduces the amount of luck involved; to what extent is debatable, but there's less luck involved in accurately projecting cumulative stats than there is in projecting single-game performances. Drafting, trading, free agency, etc. - call it "player acquisition" - all rely primarily on the ability to do the former. Lineup-setting relies on the latter.
 
CrossEyed said:
The team with the higher seed was able to choose a player, or 2, or 3 (based on the difference in reg season wins) to be their "high seed advantage players". You still were only allowed to swap out 1 player after the games were over to improve your score, but the more players you had in the HSA category the better your odds were to improve your score.So maybe it could work that each team would declare 1 or 2 bench guys as "flex players" and you could swap the 1 that increases your score the most. Still requires some lineup decisions but better utilizes your entire roster.
Click to expand...
That's genius! :confused:
 
I'm thinking of starting a best ball, all play league next year. are there any web sites that host leagues which allow for this type of format?

 
Stinkin Ref said:
Ignoratio Elenchi said:
Stinkin Ref said:
having to make those tough lineup/matchup calls is a part of the skill involved in this hobby and an opportunity to take some of the luck out of it.....
Click to expand...
I wholeheartedly disagree. There's very little skill involved in deciding which one out of two or three closely-ranked players will score the most points on a given Sunday. When you happen to make the right call, of course, you'll attribute it to the pre-game research you did into the opposing teams' defenses, etc., but in reality it's 99.99% luck.
Click to expand...
if everybody used the exact same rankings I would agree with you.......but they don't....there is some skill/strategy involved, because even if all of us here use the FBG's rankings as a starting point I know there are plenty of times I may start the lower ranked guy based on my own homework/research......best ball eliminates this aspect.........
Click to expand...
:confused: How you have them ranked is irrelevant. The point is that if you have a non-obvious lineup decision, there's very little skill involved in correctly projecting which one of the players will score the most points that week. It's almost entirely luck. Now, you may think it's fun to do that homework, and don't want to play in a best-ball format because it would remove that fun aspect from the game, but your homework has very little bearing on your ability to correctly choose which player to start each week.

 
SWC said:
This is a crazy idea that takes the fun out of fantasy football and it should not be called fantasy football if you are in to it then it should be called fantasy drafting or fantasy waiver wiring because that's all that you really do.
Click to expand...
really? do you get excited and have a fun time when your highest scoring player is on the bench?
 
Ignoratio Elenchi said:
It definitely reduces the amount of luck involved; to what extent is debatable, but there's less luck involved in accurately projecting cumulative stats than there is in projecting single-game performances.
Click to expand...
Ah ... with your point made like that, its clear that you're correct. Wanted to address in advance the "you can't rid of luck, so why try?" argument.
 
Insein said:
I wouldn't prefer Best Ball because its basically Draft and sit. Nothing to do. Some people may like that but I feel its boring. Same with Total Points leagues. Right now I'm 3rd in total points but 0-7 for my record. I should be the perfect candidate for wanting best ball or Total points but I'd still rather H2H. The simple competition and strategy are why I love FF.
Click to expand...
You can still manage your team through trades and free agency. You can make it a keeper/dynasty league to increase the variety of roster-building strategies. You're just taking away the lineup-setting part. It's not for everyone, but I don't think it's as boring as people are imagining.
 
Maik Jeaunz said:
I'm thinking of starting a best ball, all play league next year. are there any web sites that host leagues which allow for this type of format?
Click to expand...
MFL keeps both best-ball and all-play stats for every league, so my assumption is that site could handle it.CBS Sportsline supports all-play ... not sure about best-ball.
 
SWC said:
There is no rule in the real NFL that lets you magically decide after the game that a certain player didn't actually play, and erase his stinky stat line from your game ...
Click to expand...
Yeah, but the "gotta mimic the real NFL" ship has sailed a long, long time ago in FFB. :confused: EDIT: another way to think about it -- there IS a rule in the real NFL that, say, Toby Gerhardt can take the field in the event of an injury to Adrian Peterson. Don't really care about FFB mimicking the NFL but for those that do, there's another way to approach the issue.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Maik Jeaunz said:
SWC said:
This is a crazy idea that takes the fun out of fantasy football and it should not be called fantasy football if you are in to it then it should be called fantasy drafting or fantasy waiver wiring because that's all that you really do.
Click to expand...
really? do you get excited and have a fun time when your highest scoring player is on the bench?
Click to expand...
I dont get excited' and have a good time but thats the way that the cookie crumbles and if you started a guy who ends up stinking up the joint then you have to live with it because you let yourself and your fantasy players down by not doing more research about thier opponents and thier defensive tendencies and schemes so i learn to Live with it and in general I enjoy the entire fantasy football weekend.
 
Doug B said:
SWC said:
There is no rule in the real NFL that lets you magically decide after the game that a certain player didn't actually play, and erase his stinky stat line from your game ...
Click to expand...
Yeah, but the "gotta mimic the real NFL" ship has sailed a long, long time ago in FFB. :confused:
Click to expand...
yes and no and i think that I'd rather play in a league that at least pretends to still involve some managerial work other than just getting guys on one day in September and Ocassionally making pick ups and letting her rip and hoping for the best. It's like the last thing a redneck ever says is "hold my beer and watch this."
 
SWC said:
There is no rule in the real NFL that lets you magically decide after the game that a certain player didn't actually play, and erase his stinky stat line from your game, and then have all of the other owners and players and coaches make believe that someone else actually played instead, and then change the outcome of the games afterwards.
Click to expand...
also in the NFL, coaches do not say, "you can't count Danario Alexander's touchdown because he wasn't a starter!" all players' stats count, even those on the bench.
 
dennis.moore said:
LOL @ people thinking that deciding what player to start and what player to sit is a skill.
Click to expand...
In defense to H2H, let's face it, people like to make "calls," they do it all the time here on these boards. "So and so will have a huge week this week, get him now." Sometimes you're rewarded sometimes you're disappointed. Weekly H2H lineup changes adds that exciting drama to the the league each week. Besides, what's better than raggin on your leaguemate for not starting Nakeem Hicks last week :confused:
 
SWC said:
... you let yourself and your fantasy players down by not doing more research about thier opponents and thier defensive tendencies and schemes ...
Click to expand...
Disagree -- the information (much of which is intentionally misleading) that's available to help make lineup decisions is nowhere near reliable enough to have 100% hit rate. You've basically said that with enough diligence, you can ALWAYS figure out which player will score the most. Few here will agree with you.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

JohnnyU
Dynasty Leagues with a toilet bowl
Replies
19
Views
538
InDitkaWeTrust
InDitkaWeTrust
D
If you are eliminated from the playoffs with a regular season game to go, would you still pick up players?
2
Replies
71
Views
3K
Neil Beaufort Zod
Neil Beaufort Zod
Hot Sauce Guy
Guillotine style post-season leagues
Replies
4
Views
290
Bankerguy
Bankerguy

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 2 (members: 0, guests: 2)
Top