Jeff Pasquino
Footballguy
Thoughts on Chris Gocong in Cleveland?
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Dynasty LB Rankings (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter BearsFan
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Jene Bramel
Footballguy
Shocked that he's considered a viable MLB, strongly doubt he'll play every down. Opportunity works in his favor as does what would appear to be a very weak supporting cast (especially if/when D'Qwell Jackson misses time) however. I doubt he'll be the next Dhani Jones or Paris Lenon, but it's possible.'Jeff Pasquino said:
Jene Bramel
Footballguy
He definitely looked good in their rating system and there's an argument that he could grow into the next Andra Davis in Cleveland. But some improvement in coverage and the ability to blitz inside doesn't mean he'll be an impact player and doesn't guarantee he'll have a role in subpackages. And while he grades nicely in run support, they credited him with a tackle on only 5% of the defensive snaps he took. Compare that to Bradie James at 9% or Jonathan Goff -- another one of their "secret superstars" -- at 8% and there's lots of work to be done for Gocong to translate his improving run support skill into the stats needed for him to become a viable fantasy option.
Jeff Pasquino
Footballguy
Thanks Jene. One of the reasons I mentioned him was that I think he warrants discussion. He wasn't very impressive in Philly but I think this is more about opportunity than talent. Gocong was used more as a SAM in Philly due to his better coverage skills, so I think he will be left on the field even in nickel.One of the things that really helped D'Qwell in CLE early on was the play of the DTs, which freed him up to make plays (much like Ray Lewis has been in his biggest seasons, such as when Siragusa played in 2000). I don't know how well that will be in 2011.I'll go check out that article now. Thanks for the heads up.
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Jene Bramel
Footballguy
Definitely warrants discussion. He'll fit in somewhere (unless the Browns draft a strong ILB prospect) in the next update to the linebacker tiers.I don't think Philly ever truly knew what to do with Gocong. He looks like a tweener among tweeners. They'd praise him for coverage -- but never used him in subpackages. They'd say he was an above-average run defender -- but dealt him away for a mid-round pick. Then they installed a 235 pounder at SAM who wasn't as well rounded in pass rush and coverage. Fokou worked out better than I expected against the run, so that turned out well enough.That's not to say Gocong has no chance be an every-down defender. Scott Fujita isn't a world-beating all-around OLB. But Gocong seems like a (very) poor man's Adalius Thomas. Thomas might have been able to pull off the DE>>OLB>>every-down ILB transition productively earlier in his career. I think this turns into a "plays better than he produces in the box score" deal, above-average opportunity or not.
I am surprised you are so low on Gocong. Before, I viewed him as a fairly solid, rounded LB - nothing to write home about, but putting in respectable production mostly in part-time duty. So, now, I do tend to agree with Rotoworld that he becomes a big sleeper if he takes over MLB in the new defense. He surely is no Poz, but the opportunity is gargantuan and cannot be denied. Who else do you see making the tackles in Cleveland?
Decent talent + little competition + not a very strong offense = very good prospects in IDP, imho. I don't know enough to speculate whether Gocong can be a three-down player AND survive 16 games, but I don't see clear indications why he wouldn't. If he does, top-25 LB in tackle-heavy leagues is absolutely attainable.
Of course, maybe the Browns draft an LB early, but with all their other needs, how likely is it that Holmgren goes for an LB upgrade?
Decent talent + little competition + not a very strong offense = very good prospects in IDP, imho. I don't know enough to speculate whether Gocong can be a three-down player AND survive 16 games, but I don't see clear indications why he wouldn't. If he does, top-25 LB in tackle-heavy leagues is absolutely attainable.
Of course, maybe the Browns draft an LB early, but with all their other needs, how likely is it that Holmgren goes for an LB upgrade?
Jene Bramel
Footballguy
to the Forum. Agree with all of the above, except that I'm less optimistic about whether Jauron will see him as an every-down guy.Assuming no improvements to the surrounding cast, his opportunity will definitely help him overcome my concerns about his tackle/snap rate. If he's slotted to play every down, it'll be hard to keep him out of the top 30 and in LB3+ range. I'll likely have a hard time putting him in my top 20, however, which is a relatively weak projection for an every-down MLB on a defense expected to see top five tackle opportunity.Putting him near the top of list for more film study this summer. Maybe I've misread his range and ability to shed.
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Jene Bramel
Footballguy
I think they're reasonably good. Wasn't very impressed with his decision-making and coverage last year -- both regressed from his rookie year -- but he should be able to come downhill and make plays and play with good range. Tier would be dependent on his every-down status (which is probably dependent on Brandon Johnson's status and the depth at safety), but an every-down Maualuga probably fits somewhere in the 15-25 range. In the end, I think the loss of OTAs and potentially part of camp hurts his chances to prove he belongs in subpackages (and possibly even in the middle at all) tremendously. Right now, I'd give him only a 20-30% chance of hitting his ceiling this season.
Interesting point about the missed OTAs. I hadn't thought that part through, but makes good sense. I need to downgrade Rey a bit on my list, although I still see his long-term prospects as promising.
Last question. Where do you stand on the Jamar Chaney hype? I just over-bid for him in an auction and am having buyer's remorse. Would Bradley be the guy to benefit if Chaney doesn't pay off?
Last question. Where do you stand on the Jamar Chaney hype? I just over-bid for him in an auction and am having buyer's remorse. Would Bradley be the guy to benefit if Chaney doesn't pay off?
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Cipherchris
Footballguy
What are some teams LB corps that people usually overlook? My LB is average at best and I need to fish FA dry for up and coming and sleeper LB.
Maybe my question would be easier to answer if I put it this way. Which teams LB tactic does not fall into the traditional MLB>wlb> ilb>olb ( I don't even know if I have the order right @.@)
Maybe my question would be easier to answer if I put it this way. Which teams LB tactic does not fall into the traditional MLB>wlb> ilb>olb ( I don't even know if I have the order right @.@)
Jene Bramel
Footballguy
I think Chaney likely starts at MLB but he's another without a clear guarantee to play every down. He did last year in his brief stint, but the Eagles have used plenty of dime subpackages and journeymen like Tracy White as their second nickel backer in the past. I'd likely have Chaney above both Maualuga and Gocong if all three are every-down players, but they'd all be LB3 with LB2 upside types.
I'm still seeing some argue to avoid all 3-4 ILBs, though it's been years since we've seen that argument here. I don't think it's a specific scheme that gets someone overlooked at this point. I think the overlooked players come from two places -- an over-reliance on the prior season's stats and a reluctance to buck long-held IDP "wisdom." So, I'd be looking for players likely to see many more snaps this year (new starter, likely to add subpackage snaps, new role in the defense). In the past, that nets guys like DJ Williams, Curtis Lofton, Clint Session, Derrick Johnson and Stephen Tulloch at discount rates. I think you're looking super-deep, with means today, guys like Perry Riley and Rennie Curran fit into the high potential, lesser known player that may pay off big category. Once free agency and the draft close, there'll likely be a veteran name or two worth considering, i.e. the Dhani Jones or Paris Lenon of 2011.
Cipherchris
Footballguy
Perry Riley? What indication will be that he might be productive?
Also what is your thought on Ashlee Palmer?
Also what is your thought on Ashlee Palmer?
Jene Bramel
Footballguy
Perry Riley was a third round pick by the new coaching staff last year. London Fletcher may try, but won't be around forever. Rocky McIntosh seems very unlikely to be re-signed. HB Blades is also a free agent. No guarantee that Riley would play every down in 2011 next to Fletcher, but he's got a good shot at some production in spots this year and becoming the main guy in 2012.Palmer's value is entirely dependent on what the Lions do in the draft and free agency. I think he's a stopgap option with marginal every-down skills. He could be slightly higher on the OLB pecking order than Bobby Carpenter, but there has been speculation that the Lions could bring in a MLB and move DeAndre Levy outside.
Tick
Footballguy
I'm interested to see how the Goff/Dillard competition shakes out... though Goff was so invisible in the box scores last year that maybe there just isn't any value to be had behind that line.
saintfool
Dead sexy
regarding rey, i have read in a few places that he and muckelroy are competing for the position (if jones leaves). moreover, that the coaches have been talking up muckelroy a lot. i read that he took over MLB in GL packages late in the season, which would seem to augur well for the guy. how does he compare to rey in your opinion?
Jene Bramel
Footballguy
It's worth watching. The LB coach said Muckelroy had a future at Mike, but both he and Zimmer have said the same thing about Maualuga. I don't think the goal line package role is a big deal. Abdul Hodge was playing there at times in the past.The knock on Muckelroy coming out of college was that his range was limited and he wasn't as physical between the tackles as his size would suggest. But he was generally well regarded as a competent all-around linebacker who would likely be assignment sound. The same argument about the lack of OTAs hurting Maualuga's chances would apply to Muckelroy. Both guys would need snaps and coaching to make the transition.
jacobo_moses
Footballguy
Jene how do you see things shaking out with Pat Angerer in the next 1-2 years?
And who has more value dynasty wise the next 1-2 years. Darryl Sharpton or Zac Diles?
Thanks for your input as always we are greatful for the hard work you put in.
And who has more value dynasty wise the next 1-2 years. Darryl Sharpton or Zac Diles?
Thanks for your input as always we are greatful for the hard work you put in.
Cipherchris
Footballguy
I'll just expedite the response since Jene already answered the same questions I asked him about the same 2 people (angerer and Diles)Hopefully he'll give you a more thorough response.Angerer will service better as a mike or will, so it remains to be seen what happens to Brackett. Session is a FA this season, so if he is not resigned then either Angerer or Conner will start at will, but the hope is that long term Angerer will play mike.Diles is buried in the depth chart, so his value will require a lot of injuries to happen before he can be a starter. As of now Cushing and Ryan is slotted as ILBs with Sharpton behind both. So, it'll probably take an injury to BOTH Cushing and Ryan for Diles to have significant fantasy value.
Jene Bramel
Footballguy
Thanks jacobo.Agree with both of cipher's responses. The team expects Angerer to be the long term MLB, but that may not happen until 2012. His 2011 value is dependent on whether he plays in subpackages or not. I think there's a strong chance that happens if Session doesn't return. Diles has no fantasy value. He wasn't tendered by Houston. Sharpton's value isn't much better. He may yet find himself starting inside if the Texans have to move Cushing to OLB, but even then isn't likely to play every down.
Hard not to argue Siler, since he's proven himself capable statistically, but I thought the stars were beginning to align for Curran to take over at MLB for Tennessee. However, I'm betting that every day the CBA goes unsettled makes it more likely that teams will err toward dancing with what they know. They'll lean toward re-signing their own free agents rather than risking a younger, less proven option that they've been unable to coach up in OTAs and camp.Call it Siler/Curran, Riley, then Edds.
Benchwarmers
Footballguy
What if Cleveland moves D'Qwell Jackson to MLB, where would he rank?
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Jene Bramel
Footballguy
In the teens, probably. LB2+.
Jene Bramel
Footballguy
Think Goff has to be the favorite this year, especially as the lockout wears further on, but I'm interested to see if Jones looks more like his scouting report than draft slot during the preseason. If he does, he could be in the lineup before 2012. I'd expect him to be a longer term project for fantasy purposes, though.
Jene Bramel
Footballguy
Just finished a new set of tiers for a mock draft (that has since been pushed back) and we're hoping to debut rankings late this week, early next. I need to put some finishing touches on the DL and LB positions and put together the DB tiers and list, then I'll have the tiers up in the forum and the ranking list submitted for the site.
BearsFan
Footballguy
What are Jackson's prospects if he stays at WLB in that defense with Gocong at MLB?Who plays 3 downs?
Jene Bramel
Footballguy
I would expect Jackson to play every down. Of those currently on the depth chart, I'd favor Fujita very slightly over Gocong, but there's a chance the Browns could play dime if there's depth. Jackson's durability concerns may be lessened on the weak side, but consistency may be a bigger issue there. I think he'll be outside my top 25, but it's close.
eaglezzz
Moderator
Here is a list of the 8 top FA in my Dynasty League - who should I target?
Bishop
Curry
Chaney
Hawthorne
Anderson
Burnett
Wake
Pace
I am thinking about putting my money on Bishop and Chaney and then maybe either Curry or Hawthorne. I would like to grab 2 or 3 LBs at least.
right now I have
Barnett, Nick GB LB
Beason, Jon CAR LB
Bradley, Stewart PHI LB
Casillas, Jonathan NOS LB
Dansby, Karlos MIA LB
Curran, Rennie TEN LB
Bishop
Curry
Chaney
Hawthorne
Anderson
Burnett
Wake
Pace
I am thinking about putting my money on Bishop and Chaney and then maybe either Curry or Hawthorne. I would like to grab 2 or 3 LBs at least.
right now I have
Barnett, Nick GB LB
Beason, Jon CAR LB
Bradley, Stewart PHI LB
Casillas, Jonathan NOS LB
Dansby, Karlos MIA LB
Curran, Rennie TEN LB
BearsFan
Footballguy
If you're in a tackle-heavy league, I'd quickly try to secure Bishop, Hawthorne, and Chaney, likely in that same order.Can't imagine these guys would be available! How many teams/IDP spots?
eaglezzz
Moderator
If you're in a tackle-heavy league, I'd quickly try to secure Bishop, Hawthorne, and Chaney, likely in that same order.
Can't imagine these guys would be available! How many teams/IDP spots?
Thanks. It is a 12 team league but guys picked up on the waiver wire during the year go back to UFA and now we can sign them to 1-5 year deals. Pretty complex league but it is super competative and alot of fun. I had Bishop, Anderson, Pace all last year but they were Waiver pickups so I couldn't keep them.
Can't imagine these guys would be available! How many teams/IDP spots?
Thanks. It is a 12 team league but guys picked up on the waiver wire during the year go back to UFA and now we can sign them to 1-5 year deals. Pretty complex league but it is super competative and alot of fun. I had Bishop, Anderson, Pace all last year but they were Waiver pickups so I couldn't keep them.
Illegal Pants Downfield
Footballguy
Boy, that sounds like a really frustrating rule. I agree - Bishop & Chaney should be the priorities.
saintfool
Dead sexy
i would expect another season like he had. shanle might be back next year but beyond that there is no proven or experienced talent to speak of. he's an every down MLB in an attacking, gregg williams defense. they could sign a FA to play with him but i doubt it affects his #s.
Truly Yours
Footballguy
Speaking of the Saints LB, how do you guys see the whole situation shake out this year? How much value will these guys have, if any, fantasy wise?
What about Shanle or Wilson? Are they startable as a LB3?
Truly Yours
What about Shanle or Wilson? Are they startable as a LB3?
Truly Yours
Jene Bramel
Footballguy
Please keep all team specific advice requests in the IDP AC Forum. Thanks.
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Vilma has been much better on the field than his statistics suggest last year. His weak spot is run support, which tends to be highlighted even more when the Saints play a 3-4 concept. I think he'll have a better tackling year, but I don't think we'll see 2008 numbers ever again.
saintfool is closer to the situation and believes Shanle returns to the team. I think that situation depends on the recovery of Jonathan Casillas and, to a lesser extent, whether Wilson can get ready to play SLB in time. In the end, an every-down OLB in New Orleans could have matchup LB3 value but I don't think can be trusted as an every-week LB3. I think I'd loosely handicap that race Wilson>Shanle>>Casillas, but it's definitely a fluid situation.
BearsFan
Footballguy
Martez Wilson had played some MLB at UIUC last season. Anybody have any views about whether NOS sees him as strictly an OLB, or eventual successor to Vilma?
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saintfool
Dead sexy
i only think shanle sticks around another year because there is really no one proven behind him. dunbar is a thumper SLB, was given an opportunity to produce and didn't much with it. casillas is coming off a lisfranc injury. too much uncertainty, i think. they could certainly turn to an experienced FA to replace shanle but i wouldn't be surprised if he stuck on for another year. he's 31 and can't expect any team to make much effort to sign him away from NO. he's likely cheap insurance while guys like wilson and casillas are shown the ropes.
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Jene Bramel
Footballguy
Based on the chat during the live Audible show last night, this is going to be a topic we'll debate on the IDP Roundtable soon. Bloom was pondering the Wilson to MLB question; I tend to think Wilson isn't a good fit inside in the 4-3. Coaching comments so far have Wilson learning only the SLB spot.'BearsFan said:
Rick Blaine
Footballguy
Jene, with some of the changes affecting the LB1 tier, how would you rank these guys? I understand much of it is based on free agency, injuries, etc. But just as overall gut check, which of the 3 would you get rid off? I need to liquidate on via trade to trim down my roster. Standard scoring, 1 pt tackle/0.5 assist/3 for sack, etc.
Barrett Ruud
DJ Williams
DeMeco Ryans
Thanks in advance.
Barrett Ruud
DJ Williams
DeMeco Ryans
Thanks in advance.
Jene Bramel
Footballguy
My dynasty outlook is just barely longer than my redraft outlook. I've posted a new set of redraft tiers in another thread today, with Ryans ahead of Williams ahead of Ruud.
Jene Bramel
Footballguy
I don't think it's obvious that Maualuga is moving inside. I still think Lewis/Zimmer might play it safe with Jones if they don't have the minicamps and OTAs to get Maualuga coached up. Also still concerned that he'll not play every down. As an every-down MLB, he's a LB2 with upside. As a base defense only MLB, he's a LB4 with upside. In his current role, he's a matchup LB3 (LB5 roster). I still think Lee plays every down. With Carter in the mix, Lee is less likely to have LB1 upside, as I think Lee probably slides to SILB on the future depth chart. His IDP value would look like a younger James Farrior or Stephen Cooper or Bradie James -- LB3 with some weekly inconsistency.
Cipherchris
Footballguy
Reggie Torbor moving back to ILB, any values there? or will he be behind Sheppard?
Jene Bramel
Footballguy
I think it's a sign that they like Kelsay, Moats and Merriman as outside pass rushers. Consider it a depth hedge against Posluszny leaving in FA or Davis not recovering well enough to play, but I think Torbor is the fourth ILB on the roster. He's got little range and isn't great in coverage. He'd be well down the list of guys I'd consider as matchup plays even should he get a base defensive only ILB job due to injury, etc.
